OOTS #1138 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Resileaf]

Astral lessons, brought to you by our very special guest: Thor.

[JumboWheat01]

A crash course in priesthood, eh? So that's how multi-classing works...

[NerdyKris]

Thoughts that no one even remembers. A great place to stash stuff.


I wonder what thoughts those might be.

[Snails]

When I said that chatting up her god ride in Vahalla was never going to get old for Minrah, I did not realize how right I was.

[Thanatosia]

Oh god, this one was so genius!

WHO'S A GOOD DOG, YOU ARE!! - a philisophical-ethical-moral stance powerful enough to create an entire plane of existance if there ever was one.

[KishouTheBadger]

Poor Durkon's still not a fan of flying, heheh.

I loved how one of those places in the Astral Plane is a pink square that rebels against all the other circles. "Don't tell me what to do."

I feel a lot of this kind of flew over my head though like Thor's flying, but I can tell it's a very neat exposition to those not in the know like me or Minrah.

[Ma3lstr0m]

Oh god, this one was so genius!

WHO'S A GOOD DOG, YOU ARE!! - a philisophical-ethical-moral stance powerful enough to create an entire plane of existance if there ever was one.

This is exactly what Beastlands are, aren't they?

[Yuki Akuma]

I love the fact that Limbo is a square - simply because all the others are circles, so of course Limbo has to be a square.

[Snails]

Thoughts that no one even remembers. A great place to stash stuff.

Just do not stash it too near Oh, no, where did I put it?

[Fyraltari]

Ah! A new strip! Sleep is for the weak!

Hey looks like the thoughts are organized with the Good thoughts up top, the Evil one down, the Lawful on the right left, and the Chaotic on the left right.

Thor is True Neutral confirmed.

[RayGallade]

I think the infield fly rule is perfectly understood and well formed. It’s just occasionally misunderstood.

[Yuki Akuma]

Ah! A new strip! Sleep is for the weak!

Hey looks like the thoughts are organized with the Good thoughts up top, the Evil one down, the Lawful on the right, and the Chaotic on the left.

Thor is True Neutral confirmed.

You got Lawful and Chaotic backwards - Chaotic is on the right, because that's where "Don't you tell me what to do" (Limbo) is, while Lawful is on the left, because that's where "There is only one right path" (Mechanus) is.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I spent way too long looking at the sums of the alignment planes. Seriosuly loved that panel.

[Rockphed]

So I'm fairly certain that some, if not all, of the planes we saw were canonical outer planes. Anyone care to guess which is which? My takes:


"Truth, Justice and the Celestial Way" is obviously Celestia
"There is only one right path" is obviously Mechanus
"Don't tell me what to do" is probably limbo. That said, it is a square and I can't see chaotic neutral people doing squares. Then again, it is a square when every other plane is a circle, which I can see.
"Yes, but if you read the fine print" has gotta be Hell.
"Screw you jack, I got mine" is probably the Abyss.

[Keltest]

You got Lawful and Chaotic backwards - Chaotic is on the right, because that's where "Don't you tell me what to do" (Limbo) is, while Lawful is on the left, because that's where "There is only one right path" (Mechanus) is.

I love that Limbo is a square.

[Starknight62040]

Awesome. The Plane names were funny as all get out.

[Thanatosia]

Poor Durkon's still not a fan of flying, heheh.

I loved how one of those places in the Astral Plane is a pink square that rebels against all the other circles. "Don't tell me what to do."

I feel a lot of this kind of flew over my head though like Thor's flying, but I can tell it's a very neat exposition to those not in the know like me or Minrah.
Quick Guide to the Outer Planes

Elysium - True Good - "Everyone should Care" - Basically the classical greek fields of Elysium, a place so idealic it can actually entrap you there and make you forget you ever had a reason to leave.
The Beastlands - Good but a little Chaotic - "Who's a good dog, you are!" - Good animals are good!
Arboria - Chaotic Good - "Words aren't as important as people" - Sylvan afterlife of elves.
Ysgard - Chaotic but a little good - "Fight the good fight!" - Valhala and valkyries!
Limbo - True Chaos - "Don't you tell me what to do!" - Swirling essence of chaos, a roiling maelstrom of all elements and concepts
Pandemonium - Chaotic but a little evil - "LULZ" - Deep cavernous realm filled with screaching deafening winds that drive everyone insane.
The Abyss- Chatoic Evil - "Screw you jack, I got mine." - An Infinity of demons, going down uncounted layers (though some claim 666), each worse then the last in theory.
Carcerei - Evil but a little Chaotic - "You're bad and you should feel bad." - A prison plane
Hades - True Evil - "Nothing Matters" - Infinite bleakness, where you slowly loose the will to care about anything (including leaving) until you fade away to nothing but dust.
Gehena - Evil but a little lawful - "Resistance is futile" - Giant volcanos floating in space controled by Yugoloth Generals and warlords
Baator (the 9 hells) - Lawful Evil - "Yes, but if you read the fine print..." - Where you sell your soul to when you make faustian bargains.
Archeron - Lawful but a little evil - "I was just following orders..." - An eternal battlefield where armies clash forever on giant floating cubes.
Mechanus - True Lawful - "There's only one right path" - Huge mechanical plane made out of interlocking gears, many colonized by ant-like formians.
Arcadia - Lawful but a little good - "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." - Paladin afterlife, with an ultra-strict home owners association.
Celestia - Lawful Good - "Truth, justice, and the celestial way." - The conventional heavenly plane, in the form of a giant mountain you climb as you become purer.
Bytopia - Good but a little lawful - "Let's all do our part" - Gnomish afterlife, consisting of two planes one hanging over the other, with a communal spirit.
Outlands - True Nuetral - "Hey, lets not get carried away..." It connects and bleeds into all the other in a circle around it, with a 'portal town' at every junction. At it's center is a giant pillar that nulifies all magic as you approach, and gods and dieties are unable to approach. Floating in a ring on that pillar is the major planar city of Sigil, ruled by the Lady of pain.

Edit - added a d&D description of the planes, and added outlands which I totally spaced on.

[Xodiac]

I like how one of the thoughts nobody remembers is "My wedding anniversary is tomorrow."

How true, Giant. How true.

[dtilque]

I think the infield fly rule is perfectly understood and well formed. It’s just occasionally misunderstood.

It's not that it's not known, it's just that it doesn't matter.

[Rockphed]

Quick Guide to the Outer Planes

Elysium - True Good - "Everyone should Care"
The Beastlands - Good but a little Chaotic - "Who's a good dog, you are!"
Arboria - Chaotic Good - "Words aren't as important as people"
Ysgard - Chaotic but a little good - "Fight the good fight!"
Limbo - True Chaos - "Don't you tell me what to do!"
Pandemonium - Chaotic but a little evil - "LULZ"
The Abyss- Chatoic Evil - "Screw you jack, I got mine."
Carcerei - Evil but a little Chaotic - "You're bad and you should feel bad."
Hades - True Evil - "Nothing Matters"
Gehena - Evil but a little lawful - "Resistance is futile"
Baator (the 9 hells) - Lawful Evil - "Yes, but if you read the fine print..."
Archeron - Lawful but a little evil - "I was just following orders..."
Mechanus - True Lawful - "There's only one right path"
Arcadia - Lawful but a little good - "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Celestia - Lawful Good - "Truth, justice, and the celestial way."
Bytopia - Good but a little lawful - "Let's all do our part"

What about "Hey, Let's not get carried away"

[Grey Watcher]

Not pictured: Sigil ("Whatever, n00b.")

[Snails]

I think the infield fly rule is perfectly understood and well formed. It’s just occasionally misunderstood.

It is more that it catches people by surprise. But it is really easy to understand if you as a base runner or base coach ask yourself what you are going to do if there is a popup, which is one of those questions you are supposed to ask yourself before the pitcher starts the windup.

[gamingfreak10]

i think minrah was looking for edifying. it's probably even further out.

[Yuki Akuma]

What about "Hey, Let's not get carried away"

That's the Outlands, which is Pure Neutral.

Edit: Well, that's a little misleading. It's more accurate to say that the Outlands is every alignment at once, but it sort of averages out to Pure Neutral.

[Doggie_arf]

i think minrah was looking for edifying. it's probably even further out.

What about "enlightening"? Or perhaps "confusing"? :smalltongue:

Also, the description for Limbo reminded me of this (https://youtu.be/SyKwyAWJZcI?t=11s). All these squares make a circle...all these squares make a circle...

[lbuttitta]

What about "Hey, Let's not get carried away"

That's the Outlands, the plane of true neutrality, in which Sigil, the city of doors, is located.

Edit: Ninja'd!

[Grey Watcher]

What about "Hey, Let's not get carried away"

That would be the Outlands, plane of Neutrality. Though for a motto for that, I prefer to quote Sondheim: "Why can't we just live our lives with our children and our wives?"

[Resileaf]

What about "Hey, Let's not get carried away"

True neutral. Wouldn't know what plane it goes with though.

[Ellye]

Quick Guide to the Outer Planes

Elysium - True Good - "Everyone should Care" - Basically the classical greek fields of Elysium, a place so idealic it can actually entrap you there and make you forget you ever had a reason to leave.
The Beastlands - Good but a little Chaotic - "Who's a good dog, you are!" - Good animals are good!
Arboria - Chaotic Good - "Words aren't as important as people" - Sylvan afterlife of elves and unicorns
Ysgard - Chaotic but a little good - "Fight the good fight!" - Valhala and valkyries!
Limbo - True Chaos - "Don't you tell me what to do!" - Swirling essence of chaos, a roiling maelstrom of all elements and concepts
Pandemonium - Chaotic but a little evil - "LULZ" - Deep cavernous realm filled with screaching deafening winds that drive everyone insane.
The Abyss- Chatoic Evil - "Screw you jack, I got mine." - An Infinity of demons, going down uncounted layers (though some claim 666), each worse then the last in theory.
Carcerei - Evil but a little Chaotic - "You're bad and you should feel bad." - A prison plane
Hades - True Evil - "Nothing Matters" - Infinite bleakness, where you slowly loose the will to care about anything (including leaving) until you fade away to nothing but dust.
Gehena - Evil but a little lawful - "Resistance is futile" - Giant volcanos floating in space controled by Yugoloth Generals and warlords
Baator (the 9 hells) - Lawful Evil - "Yes, but if you read the fine print..." - Where you sell your soul to when you make faustian bargains.
Archeron - Lawful but a little evil - "I was just following orders..." - An eternal battlefield where armies clash forever on giant floating cubes.
Mechanus - True Lawful - "There's only one right path" - Huge mechanical plane made out of interlocking gears, many colonized by ant-like formians.
Arcadia - Lawful but a little good - "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." - Paladin afterlife
Celestia - Lawful Good - "Truth, justice, and the celestial way." - The conventional heavenly plane, in the form of a giant mountain you climb as you become purer.
Bytopia - Good but a little lawful - "Let's all do our part" - Gnomish afterlife, consisting of two planes one hanging over the other, with a communal spirit.

Fits perfectly with the planes and the way they are arranged in the panel. Nice!

[Sloanzilla]

Obvious question is obvious, but does the size of the plane matter? It looks like Hell, the Abyss and the Neutral Good place are doing especially well.

[zimmerwald1915]

Obvious question is obvious, but does the size of the plane matter? It looks like Hell, the Abyss and the Neutral Good place are doing especially well.
Nodal planes (LG, NG, CG, LN, etc.) tend to be larger, while interstitial ones (LG/NG, NG/CG, etc.) tend to be smaller.

[sillymel]

Did anyone else notice the bottom line of the bottom-left panel? Let's just assume that's referring to barfing.

[Sniccups]

I LOVE THIS ONE! Great job summing up each plane in a sentence!

[Fyraltari]

I like Thor's little proud-of-himself smile in the first panel, also even for this comic Thor is exceptionally meta.

And we have confirmation that the Gods can see inside the minds of their Clerics apparently.

[Yuki Akuma]

Obvious question is obvious, but does the size of the plane matter? It looks like Hell, the Abyss and the Neutral Good place are doing especially well.

I think it's just perspective. Because, like, the Outlands is massive, but it's rather small on-panel because it's further away.

[Particle_Man]

I thought instead of the outlands that it was the plane of concordant opposition but maybe that is only first edition. Anyhow the most important thing Thor said to Durkon is that he will be fine.

[Sloanzilla]

I agree with the Giant's assessment of the alignment of 4 Chan.

[sillymel]

So, at this point, I'm pretty sure we are actually gonna get some exposition on the Snarl before it cuts away, because if we weren't, Rich would probably have left this explanation of the Astral Plane for later.

[Yuki Akuma]

I thought instead of the outlands that it was the plane of concordant opposition but maybe that is only first edition. Anyhow the most important thing Thor said to Durkon is that he will be fine.

All of the Outer Planes have formal titles - the Outlands is properly called The Concordant Domain of the Outlands, the Concordant Opposition. (Yes 'concordant' is in there twice.)

[Fyraltari]

All of the Outer Planes have formal titles - the Outlands is properly called The Concordant Domain of the Outlands, the Concordant Opposition. (Yes 'concordant' is in there twice.)

The title is concording with itself, nothing to see here.

[jwhouk]

Flying through the Astral Plane on Thor Air - where the loop-the-loops are puke free!

[factotum]

I think it's just perspective. Because, like, the Outlands is massive, but it's rather small on-panel because it's further away.

I may be wrong, but isn't the point of all these planes that they are actually infinite? So the size they appear in the "diagram" doesn't bear any relation to how big they are. Long time since I read the Planescape rules, though...

[Occasional Sage]

That's... a really good description of the Astral.

Is there maybe a reason Rich writes for a living? :confused:

[Benjamin Vazque]

That... is not how I had understood the Astral Plane, and yet it sums it up nicely.

Enjoy,
Benjamin A. Vazquez, U.E.

[Gift Jeraff]

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Thor_zpsmx99jl7i.png The spirits of people who believe those things strongly are drawn to them, and help make the plane itself.

As I suspected, it seems the gods aren't going out of their way to factory farm souls so much as they are taking advantage of a natural process of the multiverse (souls merging with the Outer Planes and turning into raw power).

[Lombard]

lol. Sha Na Na was like the nadir of childhood boredom...

[Yuki Akuma]

I may be wrong, but isn't the point of all these planes that they are actually infinite? So the size they appear in the "diagram" doesn't bear any relation to how big they are. Long time since I read the Planescape rules, though...

...Well

Yes. All of the Outer Planes are infinite.

Some of them are also larger than the others.

And it's possible to circumnavigate the entire Great Wheel, on foot, passing through all sixteen aligned Outer Planes, without ever stepping through a single portal. It takes a few thousand years, but it's doable - as proved by the Great March of the Modrons, because they keep doing it.

Infinities in the D&D cosmology are a little weird is all I'm saying.

[sabremeister]

My Gods, it's full of Alignments! [Cue acid trip set to Also Sprach Zarathustra]

LG top left, all the way to CE at bottom right.

[The_Weirdo]

I wonder if the relative size of the spheres speaks to the number of people of each alignment...

[DaggerPen]

I love this way of explaining the D&D planes so much that I just sent it to my friend who also knows D&D but didn't really get into OOTS when I tried to make him read it a few years ago.

[hroþila]

Not even sure I'm laughing at the right joke, because I know next to nothing about them Planes, but I don't care: I laughed out loud at "Don't you tell me what to do" and the square.

[Corian]

One psychological insight I appreciate is that many of the evil planes' mottos are about feeling bad rather than wanting to act badly.
(Edit: mostly on the neutral-chaotic side, somehow...)

[The_Weirdo]

Not even sure I'm laughing at the right joke, because I know next to nothing about them Planes, but I don't care: I laughed out loud at "Don't you tell me what to do" and the square.

That's Limbo, the Chaotic Neutral plane.

Of course, Chaotic Neutrality goes much deeper than that...

[Particle_Man]

If anyone doesn’t like the shape of Limbo just wait a while. It will probably change.

[The_Weirdo]

If anyone doesn’t like the shape of Limbo just wait a while. It will probably change.

Don't you predict what it'll do!

[PontificatusRex]

I really like how most of the ideas of the major opposed alignments fit together like an argument.

"Yes, but if you read the fine print..."
"Words don't matter as much as people."

"There is only one right path."
"Don't you tell me what to do."

"Everyone should care."
"Nothing matters."

"Truth, Justice, and the Celestial Way."
"Screw you Jack, I got mine."

And the Acheron vs Ysgard comparison is interesting too - both martially inclined planes with showing very different sides of warfare: "Fight the good fight!" vs "I was just following orders."

[Knaight]

...Well

Yes. All of the Outer Planes are infinite.

Some of them are also larger than the others.

And it's possible to circumnavigate the entire Great Wheel, on foot, passing through all sixteen aligned Outer Planes, without ever stepping through a single portal. It takes a few thousand years, but it's doable - as proved by the Great March of the Modrons, because they keep doing it.

Infinities in the D&D cosmology are a little weird is all I'm saying.

It's not that weird - a circle of infinite radius contains an infinite number of circles of finite radii, as are some annulus shapes (though with an infinite outer but finite inner radius). If the planes are thus defined by angle subtended (which the whole "Wheel" idea strongly supports), that gets half of this. The other half is just infinities of different sizes, and while that doesn't necessarily fit cardinality well (which is what the term "size" usually means) that's not necessarily an unreasonable shorthand for them technically being the same infinite size, but having consistent variation in terms of arc length subtended at any finite radius.

[Five]

THIS. is why I love this comic. Love it.
Great panel for representing complex things understandably in the meat of a page, and landing it with punchline.

[pendell]

Very, very cool. I mean, wow. This is one of the most thoughtful strips I've seen, right up with Shojo's lessons to Belkar.

Mr. Burlew, you have outdone yourself. *Tips hat*

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Reboot]

So, no-one's going to pick at the scab and point out that the CN square is practically Hilgya's motto (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1107.html)? :p

[Grey Watcher]

I really like how most of the ideas of the major opposed alignments fit together like an argument.

"Yes, but if you read the fine print..."
"Words don't matter as much as people."

"There is only one right path."
"Don't you tell me what to do."

"Everyone should care."
"Nothing matters."

"Truth, Justice, and the Celestial Way."
"Screw you Jack, I got mine."

And the Acheron vs Ysgard comparison is interesting too - both martially inclined planes with showing very different sides of warfare: "Fight the good fight!" vs "I was just following orders."

"The needs of the many (outweigh the needs of the few.)" is a nice opposite to (For the) Lulz."

[Urm le Fou]

Infinities in the D&D cosmology are a little weird is all I'm saying.

Infinities are a little weird, period.

Consider the numbers 1,2,3,... infinity. (The Natural numbers. N). There are an infinite number of them. The cardinality of N is aleph 0 (aleph-zero).
Now, consider the Integers (Z): -infinity, ... -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, ...infinity. There are obviously twice as many Integers as Natural numbers, because for every Natural number there is an additional -ve Integer.
Yet, the cardinality of N and Z is... the same (aleph 0). Now, consider the fractions (Rational numbers). All the spaces between the Integers defined by p/q. Obviously there are an infinite number of fractions between every Integer. And yet the cardinality of the Rational numbers is... the same as N and Z.

Now, consider pi, and e. They don't fit in the Rational set. They are Real numbers, and the Real numbers have a cardinality of aleph-1.

I feel my sanity draining away now. Will stop.

[Resileaf]

I wonder where the elemental planes stand in all of that. Or would they simply hang in a different sphere of the astral sea?

[The_Weirdo]

So, no-one's going to pick at the scab and point out that the CN square is practically Hilgya's motto (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1107.html)? :p

Oh, you noticed that, too? :smallsmile:

[ti'esar]

As incredibly geeky-cool as I found all of the planar color pools being correct color-wise (IIRC, anyway) and even more or less in the right order, the thing that really grabbed me here was Thor ragging on comics when he's not only a character in one but supposed to be based more on another Thor in comics rather than any mythology. That's inexplicably hilarious.

[Yuki Akuma]

I wonder where the elemental planes stand in all of that. Or would they simply hang in a different sphere of the astral sea?

In traditional (read: pre-4e) AD&D cosmology, the Elemental (or Inner) Planes have nothing to do with the Outer Planes. At all. They're made of actual physical matter, like the Prime Material Plane, and are not even connected to the Astral Plane (they connect to the Prime Material Plane via the Ethereal Plane instead).


As incredibly geeky-cool as I found all of the planar color pools being correct color-wise (IIRC, anyway) and even more or less in the right order, the thing that really grabbed me here was Thor ragging on comics when he's not only a character in one but supposed to be based more on another Thor in comics rather than any mythology. That's inexplicably hilarious.

Oh right they're colour pools, not the actual physical planes. I forgot that for some reason

[Crisis21]

Borg sighting confirmed.

[2D8HP]

Okay, I'm so stealin' this.

Some mighty fine worldbuilding.

M-i-g-h-t-y fine. :smile:

[Rogar Demonblud]

Suddenly I'm finding it just a little weird that Celestia is a mountain that you climb to gradually shed your misdeeds...

...which is the description of Purgatory, not Paradise.

I wonder if Gygax was one of those people who couldn't get through the entirety of Dante's Comedy. He got further than most, as it looks like he didn't get hung up on Inferno.

[Tom Lehmann]

Very nice! Are some thoughts leaking to the Snarl via the Astral plane?

[King of Nowhere]

I really like how the astral plane was represented!

[AutomatedTeller]

Rich just keeps taking the comic to unexpected places, exploring all there is to see about D&D. And fantasy in general. Amazing and funny.

[Doug Lampert]

I think the infield fly rule is perfectly understood and well formed. It’s just occasionally misunderstood.

Right, the complicated rule in baseball is the dropped third strike rule.

For reference, the third strike is an out, unless the catcher drops it, if the catcher drops a foul tip then it's a foul and the count remains the same, if its some other sort of strike then the batter can attempt to go to first in a normal force play, unless first is occupied in which case he can't advance and is simply out, unless there are two outs in which case he can attempt to go to first and it's a forced advance for any runners who'd usually be forced on a ball in play.

[Benjamin Vazque]

Suddenly I'm finding it just a little weird that Celestia is a mountain that you climb to gradually shed your misdeeds...

...which is the description of Purgatory, not Paradise.

I wonder if Gygax was one of those people who couldn't get through the entirety of Dante's Comedy. He got further than most, as it looks like he didn't get hung up on Inferno.

Yes, but we've only seen the base of the mountain and the first level. As we ascend presumably we would see things which are far more reminiscent of an abstract goodness.

Enjoy,
Benjamin A. Vazquez, U.E.

[Talyn]

Man, nobody does exposition like this comic. It's just amazing. Most comics, this would just be expository filler - good to know, but not given a ton of attention or thought. But OotS makes even the exposition both funny and somehow heart-wrenching (in the mottos of the different planes).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yes, but we've only seen the base of the mountain and the first level. As we ascend presumably we would see things which are far more reminiscent of an abstract goodness.

Enjoy,
Benjamin A. Vazquez, U.E.

No, Celestia has been pretty well laid out since its days as The Seven Heavens. You just climb the mountain, and once you get to the top, instead of heading off to the planets with the appropriate types of souls, you get eaten by the mountain and turned into a little battery to power the gods.

Which is more Screwtape Letters than anything else.

[Anarion]

So many references. I’m so curious what Thor is leading up to though. He’s been talking all about asides.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

It isn't very hard to remember when to use the word farther and when to use the word further.

The word farther is used for physical distance. A mile is farther than a yard. A horse must run farther in the Belmont than in the Preakness. I remember this because the word farther starts with far.

The word further is used for metaphorical or figurative distance. I hope Rich Burlew continues his story further. A doctor goes to many years of school to get further education.

[Crisis21]

I really like how most of the ideas of the major opposed alignments fit together like an argument.

"Yes, but if you read the fine print..."
"Words don't matter as much as people."

"There is only one right path."
"Don't you tell me what to do."

"Everyone should care."
"Nothing matters."

"Truth, Justice, and the Celestial Way."
"Screw you Jack, I got mine."

And the Acheron vs Ysgard comparison is interesting too - both martially inclined planes with showing very different sides of warfare: "Fight the good fight!" vs "I was just following orders."


"The needs of the many (outweigh the needs of the few.)" is a nice opposite to (For the) Lulz."

They're all interesting dichotomies.

"Let's all do our part" vs. "You are bad and your should feel bad"

"Who's a good boy? You are!" vs. "Resistance is futile"

And of course "Hey, let's not get carried away" vs everyone else.

[Thanatosia]

Yes, but we've only seen the base of the mountain and the first level. As we ascend presumably we would see things which are far more reminiscent of an abstract goodness.
Celestia is not the plane of absolute goodness. That would be Elysium. It's a plane devoted to the concept of a precise kind of goodness, where everything is in harmony and fits in it's place (The lawful aspect). It's more merciful then Arcadia which is perfectly ok with stomping on people in the name of the greater good and devotion to the the rules over humanity, but it is very ordered and consumed with a devotion to harmony.

You just climb the mountain, and once you get to the top, instead of heading off to the planets with the appropriate types of souls, you get eaten by the mountain and turned into a little battery to power the gods.

That's a very cynical and imo incorrect way of looking at it in my opinion. As you climb the mountain of celestia, you become more and more aligned and in harmony with the ideology it represents. By the time you reach the summit, you should be fully in sync with the plane and the philisophical-moral-ethical construct it represents. At that point you merge with and become part of the plane itself - remember, everything in the outer planes is not really mater, it's concept and ideology, and two identical concepts are not seperate distinct things like two identical material objects are. You're not used as fuel in the sense of a seperate entity being tapped for power by the plane, you have become so similar to the plane that you ARE the plane and it is you. The process of ascending the mountain is a process of shedding yourself of all parts of yourself that are not 'of celestia', voluntarily. If your sense of self as something seperate and distinct from celestia is too great to continue progress at any point, and you are not ready to shed that part of the self that is seperate, you stop at that level of the mountain until you are ready and willing to continue to ascend. But no point of the process is coerced, you ascend celestia because you want to BE celestia. At least that's always been my interpretation of it.

[TheNecrocomicon]

I just get rapidly reminded of:


Fly me high through the starry skies
Maybe to an astral plane
Cross the highways of fantasy
Help me to forget today's pain

[KorvinStarmast]

Celestia is not the plane of absolute goodness. --- The process of ascending the mountain is a process of shedding yourself of all parts of yourself that are not 'of Celestia', voluntarily. If your sense of self as something separate and distinct from Celestia is too great to continue progress at any point, and you are not ready to shed that part of the self that is separate, you stop at that level of the mountain until you are ready and willing to continue to ascend. But no point of the process is coerced, you ascend Celestia because you want to BE Celestia. Yes, and it's a little bit Zen, in terms of becoming as one with the cosmos .... and the word is aahoum (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRGJbk4XpYs)

As to the comic strip, I really enjoyed how much Minrah was enjoying the ride in panel 1. It's a nice follow up to the "I have literally dreamed this dozens of times" from the previous strip.

Once again, a joyful strip. Much enjoyment. Thanks Giant.

[Crœsos]

I like Thor's comment:


No one lives here except for a few trademarked creatures that know better than to bother us.

Humorous in itself and an obvious callback to strip #32 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html).

[Alex Warlorn]

Seriously, personally, I'd have gone with 'The Rules are not made to be broken!' for the Lawful Neutral plane.

[Personification]

What is the CE quote a reference to? I know it is from something, but I don't know what.

[jwhouk]

Runner on first or first and second, less than two outs, ball popped up on the infield in fair territory is considered an infield fly unless the umpire determines that the fielder unintentionally dropped the ball (losing it in the sun, misplayed it, whatever).

[DaggerPen]

I really like how most of the ideas of the major opposed alignments fit together like an argument.

"Yes, but if you read the fine print..."
"Words don't matter as much as people."

"There is only one right path."
"Don't you tell me what to do."

"Everyone should care."
"Nothing matters."

"Truth, Justice, and the Celestial Way."
"Screw you Jack, I got mine."

And the Acheron vs Ysgard comparison is interesting too - both martially inclined planes with showing very different sides of warfare: "Fight the good fight!" vs "I was just following orders."

I love this. (Though, as pointed out elsewhere, it does break down a bit for some of the... what's the word I'm looking for? The ones that are like "Lawful Good/Lawful Neutral", etc.?)


Infinities are a little weird, period.

Consider the numbers 1,2,3,... infinity. (The Natural numbers. N). There are an infinite number of them. The cardinality of N is aleph 0 (aleph-zero).
Now, consider the Integers (Z): -infinity, ... -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, ...infinity. There are obviously twice as many Integers as Natural numbers, because for every Natural number there is an additional -ve Integer.
Yet, the cardinality of N and Z is... the same (aleph 0). Now, consider the fractions (Rational numbers). All the spaces between the Integers defined by p/q. Obviously there are an infinite number of fractions between every Integer. And yet the cardinality of the Rational numbers is... the same as N and Z.

Now, consider pi, and e. They don't fit in the Rational set. They are Real numbers, and the Real numbers have a cardinality of aleph-1.

I feel my sanity draining away now. Will stop.

Oh, don't forget my old favorite:

The pattern of odd/even numbers is: even, odd, even, odd, etc. So, you'd think there would be half as many odd numbers as there are integers, right? But every single integer corresponds to an even number, because if you multiply it by 2, you get an even number. So there are exactly as many even numbers as there are integers. And if you multiply it by 2 and then subtract 1, you get an odd number. So there are as many odd numbers as there are integers, too!

Infinities hurt your brain to think about.


Very nice! Are some thoughts leaking to the Snarl via the Astral plane?

Oh man, that would be bad if there were, but a great twist.


Right, the complicated rule in baseball is the dropped third strike rule.

For reference, the third strike is an out, unless the catcher drops it, if the catcher drops a foul tip then it's a foul and the count remains the same, if its some other sort of strike then the batter can attempt to go to first in a normal force play, unless first is occupied in which case he can't advance and is simply out, unless there are two outs in which case he can attempt to go to first and it's a forced advance for any runners who'd usually be forced on a ball in play.

We're going to need to go deeper into the Astral Plane for this rule.

[DougTheHead]

It's not that [the infield fly rule] is not known, it's just that it doesn't matter.

You say that now, but just wait until someone on your team pops up with a force play at third base and fewer than two outs!


Runner on first or first and second, less than two outs, ball popped up on the infield in fair territory is considered an infield fly unless the umpire determines that the fielder unintentionally dropped the ball (losing it in the sun, misplayed it, whatever).

Just a runner at first isn't enough to trigger the rule. It's either runners at first and second, or bases loaded ("force out at third" is the easier way to put it. If an infielder deliberately drops the ball with a runner on first and then throws to second for the force-out, the play ends with one out, and a runner safe on first, same as if the infielder had caught the ball. As there's no way to generate additional outs from the play, there's no need for an infield fly rule in that circumstance.

[Peelee]

So, no-one's going to pick at the scab and point out that the CN square is practically Hilgya's motto (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1107.html)? :p

That may be what she says, but she sure acts like "screw you, I got mine."

[White Blade]

"Everyone should care" is incredibly efficient as a Neutral Good motto and "Nothing matters" makes a lot of sense for the evil motto.

"Who's a good dog? You are!" and "You're bad and you should feel bad" are both judgment statements, not belief statements, so that's an interesting point of continuity.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Calling it now; he's going to show them the remnants of World 1.0.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ooh, I’m always a fan of some cosmological (and metaphysical) insights. Still waiting for a reveal, however...

[Fitzclowningham]

I can't help noticing the differences in size among the representations of the outer planes. CE looks the biggest, followed by LE and NG. NE is disturbingly large. Do the sizes correlate with the author's assessment of the relative prevalence of the alignments in the world? If so, bravo.

Edit: Oops.
Obvious question is obvious, but does the size of the plane matter? It looks like Hell, the Abyss and the Neutral Good place are doing especially well.


I wonder if the relative size of the spheres speaks to the number of people of each alignment...

[danelsan]

As someone who left D&D for other RPGs years ago, I forgot a lot of the lore. So it surprises me a bit, given a lot of the depictions of gnomes in various D&D-inspired media and reports of actual D&D games, that the Gnomish afterlife has some Lawful leanings instead of Chaotic ones.

[Ruck]

I just get rapidly reminded of:

I get reminded of Jonathan Richman and the Modern Lovers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjhNyMo5qLY).

[ti'esar]

As someone who left D&D for other RPGs years ago, I forgot a lot of the lore. So it surprises me a bit, given a lot of the depictions of gnomes in various D&D-inspired media and reports of actual D&D games, that the Gnomish afterlife has some Lawful leanings instead of Chaotic ones.

In your defense, D&D gnomes have always had an identity problem.

[F.Harr]

O.K. Now I know what's going on. Thanks.

[Lexible]

"Sha Na Na"

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :smallsmile:

[WolvesbaneIII]

I like Thor's comment:



Humorous in itself and an obvious callback to strip #32 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html).

was that just a joke? or did he really get hit with a cease and desist order? Its funny regardless.

[Peelee]

was that just a joke? or did he really get hit with a cease and desist order? Its funny regardless.

Yes, no, yes. Imean, I don't know the no, but parody is generally fair use.

[Ironsmith]

I can't help noticing the differences in size among the representations of the outer planes. CE looks the biggest, followed by LE and NG. NE is disturbingly large. Do the sizes correlate with the author's assessment of the relative prevalence of the alignments in the world? If so, bravo.

I saw that as proximity to the "camera", as opposed to actually being different sizes. The effect would be such that they would look to be truly scattered in all three (or more) dimensions, which is befitting the Astral Plane.

Although, I do have to appreciate the irony of "Don't you tell me what to do!" (a very chaotic mindset) being square (which strikes me as more a lawful thing, for some reason).

[nbLurkerAbove]

Thor: Everything out here is made of ideas, when you get right down to it. Even me!

So the gods are made of thoughts? I guess that's how new gods are made, like the elven gods or the Dark One. If that's the case, then who was the first god? And who was there that had the thought to bring that first god into existence? Or were some gods always around?

[Elanasaurus]

What is the CE quote a reference to? I know it is from something, but I don't know what.According to UD, something similar to "Screw you, Jack" (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I%27m%20all%20right%20jack&amp=true&defid=131992) was used to describe the ungratefulness of a complacent society toward returning Navy sailors. Doesn't say when the phrase was first used."I got mine" (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=FYIGM&amp=true&defid=4186846)reflects basically the same idea, just more so.
:elan:

[Pronounceable]

This is a cool ass strip. I could identify every single Outer Plane there with its motto. Burlew is truly a giant among DnD nerds.


However: I'm pretty sure Pandemonium's motto should've been "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHH!!!" instead, cos that's not the place for the lulz.

[Arkain]

These last few strips have been wonderful, really. As others, I'm also loving the square that's probably Limbo.

Wondering whether the uncapitalized "jack" is a typo, though.

[RMS Oceanic]

Two Star Trek references! :smallbiggrin:

Nice to explore Durkon's thought-mushing a little.

[Crisis21]

This is a cool ass strip. I could identify every single Outer Plane there with its motto. Burlew is truly a giant among DnD nerds.


However: I'm pretty sure Pandemonium's motto should've been "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHH!!!" instead, cos that's not the place for the lulz.

But then no one would be drawn towards it. :smalltongue:

[Breccia]

New favorite alignment chart.

[Emperor Time]

Very interesting to see how the astral plane is a gateway to all of the outer planes.

[Sakgeres]

Did anyone else notice the bottom line of the bottom-left panel? Let's just assume that's referring to barfing.

That. And every other thought in there. It is then I realized I truly belong to the astral plane. It is soooo MY plane.

[ackmondual]

It's "further" :smallbiggrin:

[Repzak]

This is a cool ass strip. I could identify every single Outer Plane there with its motto. Burlew is truly a giant among DnD nerds.


However: I'm pretty sure Pandemonium's motto should've been "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHH!!!" instead, cos that's not the place for the lulz.

I fully and completely agree with what plane he is assigning people who "do it for the lulz" to :smallbiggrin:

[The Shadow]

Now, consider pi, and e. They don't fit in the Rational set. They are Real numbers, and the Real numbers have a cardinality of aleph-1.

This is a highly controversial statement among set theorists. I've seen arguments for alephs 1, 2, 3, and omega. There are probably others out there.

While Cantor thought it was likely aleph-1, that's by no means universally held. I don't think it's even the leading choice any more. Gödel thought it was likely aleph-2.

More information at Wikipedia. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_hypothesis)

As for the actual comic, I enjoyed it, but I want to get to the big reveal!

(Also, I've never liked the Gygaxian Outer Planes.)

[Crisis21]

This is a highly controversial statement among set theorists. I've seen arguments for alephs 1, 2, 3, and omega. There are probably others out there.

While Cantor thought it was likely aleph-1, that's by no means universally held. I don't think it's even the leading choice any more. Gödel thought it was likely aleph-2.

More information at Wikipedia. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_hypothesis)

As for the actual comic, I enjoyed it, but I want to get to the big reveal!

(Also, I've never liked the Gygaxian Outer Planes.)

I've heard it (loosely) described as 'countably infinite' versus 'uncountably infinite'.

'Countably infinite' means that while you'll never reach the end, you can at least make progress knowing that you aren't skipping any numbers in the set (i.e. counting integers).

'Uncountably infinite' means that not only would you never reach the end, you can't even make progress without invariably skipping infinite numbers in the set (i.e. attempting to count real numbers).

Yes, I'm aware I didn't mention fractions.

[Millstone85]

You just climb the mountain, and once you get to the top, instead of heading off to the planets with the appropriate types of souls, you get eaten by the mountain and turned into a little battery to power the gods
That's a very cynical and imo incorrect way of looking at it in my opinion. As you climb the mountain of celestia, you become more and more aligned and in harmony with the ideology it represents. By the time you reach the summit, you should be fully in sync with the plane and the philisophical-moral-ethical construct it represents. At that point you merge with and become part of the plane itself - remember, everything in the outer planes is not really mater, it's concept and ideology, and two identical concepts are not seperate distinct things like two identical material objects are. You're not used as fuel in the sense of a seperate entity being tapped for power by the plane, you have become so similar to the plane that you ARE the plane and it is you. The process of ascending the mountain is a process of shedding yourself of all parts of yourself that are not 'of celestia', voluntarily. If your sense of self as something seperate and distinct from celestia is too great to continue progress at any point, and you are not ready to shed that part of the self that is seperate, you stop at that level of the mountain until you are ready and willing to continue to ascend. But no point of the process is coerced, you ascend celestia because you want to BE celestia. At least that's always been my interpretation of it.The author once gave his interpretation for the comic.

link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19683417&postcount=34)
Because I am saying that is specifically what the afterlife does. It makes you into a cookie-cutter clone of everyone of the same alignment. It may take centuries to do so, but all the people at the top of the mountain? Completely indistinguishable from one another. Arguably, that is the purpose of the D&D afterlife—to turn flawed mortal souls into perfect alignment-batteries, through various methodologies. In the Nine Hells, they torture you until you forget everything else. In Celestia, you meditate until you renounce all worldly concerns. In Valhalla, you party until you can't remember your own name. In Limbo, the chaos drives you mad. In Mechanus, you sit in grey cubicle stamping paperwork until you are bored into oblivion. And so on and so forth.

[mystara]

I'm not an expert, and this may just be a case of confirmation bias so I'd be curious to see the opinions of others...

Do the colours associated with characters in the strip have a resemblance to the colour of the plane that matches their morals/ethics/alignment?

It just occurred to me on thinking about Tarquin's wearing of red ("Yes, but if you read the fine print..." or possibly "I was just following orders") and Roy's wearing of blue ("Let's all do our part" or "Truth, Justice and the Celestial Way").

Arguably it even works for Belkar ("Who's a good dog? You are!").

[snowblizz]

I'm not an expert, and this may just be a case of confirmation bias so I'd be curious to see the opinions of others...

Do the colours associated with characters in the strip have a resemblance to the colour of the plane that matches their morals/ethics/alignment?

It just occurred to me on thinking about Tarquin's wearing of red ("Yes, but if you read the fine print..." or possibly "I was just following orders") and Roy's wearing of blue ("Let's all do our part" or "Truth, Justice and the Celestial Way").

Arguably it even works for Belkar ("Who's a good dog? You are!").

No.

And the reason is simple.

Belkar is about as opposite form who's a good dog as it's possible to get. Lulz or Screw you Jack I got mine. Even You're bad and you should feel bad is a contender. He is Evil and Chaotic. Which one weighs more atm people gonna argue about. Only fools try to argue he is neither.

It's not totally random ofc, there's no denying blue, Lawful Good, Azure City etc must be strongly connected. Reds are a classic evil colours. So is black, and dark colours like pruple and browns. Thouhg all that is gonan be highly dependent on cultural background.

[Rockphed]

I'm not an expert, and this may just be a case of confirmation bias so I'd be curious to see the opinions of others...

Do the colours associated with characters in the strip have a resemblance to the colour of the plane that matches their morals/ethics/alignment?

It just occurred to me on thinking about Tarquin's wearing of red ("Yes, but if you read the fine print..." or possibly "I was just following orders") and Roy's wearing of blue ("Let's all do our part" or "Truth, Justice and the Celestial Way").

Arguably it even works for Belkar ("Who's a good dog? You are!").

Except that we're pretty sure that the "Who's a good dog? you are!" plane is neutral/chaotic good, and Belkar is, well, chaotic and evil. Belkar is better defined by either "LULZ!!1!" or "Screw You, I go Mine!"

[Fyraltari]

Suddenly I'm finding it just a little weird that Celestia is a mountain that you climb to gradually shed your misdeeds...

...which is the description of Purgatory, not Paradise.

I wonder if Gygax was one of those people who couldn't get through the entirety of Dante's Comedy. He got further than most, as it looks like he didn't get hung up on Inferno.
You don't shedd your misdeeds though. You have as much fun as you want until it's not fun anymore and you go higher for a more spiritual kind of enjoyment rince and repeat until total harmony.


Man, nobody does exposition like this comic. It's just amazing. Most comics, this would just be expository filler - good to know, but not given a ton of attention or thought. But OotS makes even the exposition both funny and somehow heart-wrenching (in the mottos of the different planes).
Frankly "I was just following orders" is the one that got me. Sheesh.

Thor: Everything out here is made of ideas, when you get right down to it. Even me!

So the gods are made of thoughts? I guess that's how new gods are made, like the elven gods or the Dark One. If that's the case, then who was the first god? And who was there that had the thought to bring that first god into existence? Or were some gods always around?
This guy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html)

This is a cool ass strip. I could identify every single Outer Plane there with its motto. Burlew is truly a giant among DnD nerds.


However: I'm pretty sure Pandemonium's motto should've been "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHH!!!" instead, cos that's not the place for the lulz.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRD6H3oUwaI0BvDBduCgSnwDjGtxaa7y K4gWvrgtthvN2lCYiYX

[Supermagle]

Apropos being "nauseous": https://xkcd.com/2039/

[Malacandra]

However: I'm pretty sure Pandemonium's motto should've been "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHH!!!" instead, cos that's not the place for the lulz.

If you're the one inflicting the AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHH!!! rather than suffering it, then you're in exactly the right place for the lulz - especially if your viewpoint is "the more AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHH!!!, the more lulz".

4chan, indeed.

[SilverCacaobean]

That was some good expositioning. I wonder what he'll tell them about the snarl. Maybe it's part of the astral plane? It was created by the gods disagreeing with each other which sort of means it's created by ideas like the astral plane.



It isn't very hard to remember when to use the word farther and when to use the word further.

The word farther is used for physical distance. A mile is farther than a yard. A horse must run farther in the Belmont than in the Preakness. I remember this because the word farther starts with far.

The word further is used for metaphorical or figurative distance. I hope Rich Burlew continues his story further. A doctor goes to many years of school to get further education.

So when you're in the astral plane do you use further or farther? :smalltongue:
Seriously, thanks for that explanation though, I thought they were just different spellings.

[Psychronia]

I know there's an official D&D canon to it, but I am profoundly curious how some of these planes like Who's a good boy? You are! and Lulz manifested themselves early on.

I wonder where I can find "Just 5 more minutes..." .

[Onyavar]

Quick Guide to the Outer Planes


A Genuine Thank You!
When I read the comic the first time, I didn't even recognize that these bubbles with their descriptions are not just some vague ideas, but the concepts of the alignment planes.

[warmachine]

That's a bizarre metaphysics. If the Outer Planes are formed from an idea and the beings that believe in that idea, that leads to the question of where these beings come from. The likely answer is the Material Plane. It still leaves the question of whether the ideas of the Outer Planes are created, or have always existed. If the former, it's possible for new Outer Planes to be created. If the latter, another question is what being first thought of those ideas.

[b_jonas]

Hey looks like the thoughts are organized with the Good thoughts up top, the Evil one down, the Lawful on the right left, and the Chaotic on the left right. We already knew half of that, the part that the Good planes are up and the Evil planes are down. In #641, Vaarsuvius describes the three Evil fiends like “three gentlemen from other planes of existence / Which planes? / Those in the ventral position.” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html) The fiends themselves refer to their bosses as “lower-downs” and the non-Evil planes as “the Upper Planes” in #633 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html). Also, in #897, when Vaarsuvius's soul is borrowed and brought to the Evil planes, it's clearly sucked down, not up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html), whereas Roy's soul was going up the mountain to start his thousand year old journey to cleanse his soul to pure Law and Good.

[Castamir]

The Abyss- Chatoic Evil - "Screw you jack, I got mine." - An Infinity of demons, going down uncounted layers (though some claim 666), each worse then the last in theory.
"each worse than the last" can't be right — it would imply the layers form a linear order

[otakuryoga]

awwww, after mentioning them i was hoping we would catch a glimpse of those trademarked creatures..followed closely by an appearance from the lawyers we know so well

or at least the two lawyers in the background holding up a sheet to hide something....

[Rockphed]

"each worse than the last" can't be right — it would imply the layers form a linear order

... I believe it implies that any sequence of fiends from the Abyss has a non-decreasing badness metric. So if you have them in order ABCDE... or ACEBQ... or ZXYMT... they will get worse as you go along.

[b_jonas]

Quick Guide to the Outer Planes Nice descriptions, thank you.

Yes. All of the Outer Planes are infinite.

Some of them are also larger than the others.

And it's possible to circumnavigate the entire Great Wheel, on foot, passing through all sixteen aligned Outer Planes, without ever stepping through a single portal. It takes a few thousand years, but it's doable You'd be surprised about the geometry of the hyperbolic plane. (Spoiler: it can do all that.)

Is it also possible to circumnavigate the Elemental planes of Earth, Air, Fire and Water that way? Because that's something I'd prefer to see.

If anyone doesn’t like the shape of Limbo just wait a while. It will probably change. Exactly. But it might take more time till it changes than you can wait, or even more time than you can imagine, even after knowing this. Or it might change this evening, then in the morning again. You can't tell which.


If that's the case, then who was the first god? And who was there that had the thought to bring that first god into existence? Or were some gods always around? This guy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html) Hehe. Very true. That's how the cosmos was created in the Stickiverse.

[Wanderer]

...Well

Yes. All of the Outer Planes are infinite.

Some of them are also larger than the others.

And it's possible to circumnavigate the entire Great Wheel, on foot, passing through all sixteen aligned Outer Planes, without ever stepping through a single portal. It takes a few thousand years, but it's doable - as proved by the Great March of the Modrons, because they keep doing it.

Infinities in the D&D cosmology are a little weird is all I'm saying.

And then there's the city of Sigil, set at the exact center of the Outlands (the center of an infinite space is where now?) and sitting on the top of a pillar that is infinitely tall.

D&D cosmology doesn't give a crap what physics has to say for itself.

[hamishspence]

Is it also possible to circumnavigate the Elemental planes of Earth, Air, Fire and Water that way? Because that's something I'd prefer to see.
Exactly. But it might take more time till it changes than you can wait, or even more time than you can imagine, even after knowing this. Or it might change this evening, then in the morning again. You can't tell which.
Hehe. Very true. That's how the cosmos was created in the Stickiverse.

The plane of Air, you'd have to fly across, and the plane of Water, swim across - no walking - but yes, they have border areas, where, if you travel far enough, one Inner Plane begins to blend into its neighbour. These used to be called the Para-Elemental Planes (Magma, for example, was the "border" between Fire and Earth.)


Except that we're pretty sure that the "Who's a good dog? you are!" plane is neutral/chaotic good, and Belkar is, well, chaotic and evil. Belkar is better defined by either "LULZ!!1!" or "Screw You, I go Mine!"

Lately, it seems like he's starting to think "I am bad and I should feel bad" (Tartarus, the CE/NE plane).




I wonder where I can find "Just 5 more minutes..." .

The demiplane of Time? :smallbiggrin:

[gerryq]

I think the infield fly rule is perfectly understood and well formed. It’s just occasionally misunderstood.

Should have been the offside rule.

[Yuki Akuma]

Is it also possible to circumnavigate the Elemental planes of Earth, Air, Fire and Water that way? Because that's something I'd prefer to see.

Yes.

Protip: don't. The paraelemental planes are awful.

[Castamir]

... I believe it implies that any sequence of fiends from the Abyss has a non-decreasing badness metric. So if you have them in order ABCDE... or ACEBQ... or ZXYMT... they will get worse as you go along.
That would be "exactly as bad", ie "neither better nor worse".

Also, having every layer's fiends have identical badness would mean perfect uniformity. That implies no chaos...

[LordSith]

Quick Guide to the Outer Planes

Elysium - True Good - "Everyone should Care" - Basically the classical greek fields of Elysium, a place so idealic it can actually entrap you there and make you forget you ever had a reason to leave.
The Beastlands - Good but a little Chaotic - "Who's a good dog, you are!" - Good animals are good!
Arboria - Chaotic Good - "Words aren't as important as people" - Sylvan afterlife of elves.
Ysgard - Chaotic but a little good - "Fight the good fight!" - Valhala and valkyries!
Limbo - True Chaos - "Don't you tell me what to do!" - Swirling essence of chaos, a roiling maelstrom of all elements and concepts
Pandemonium - Chaotic but a little evil - "LULZ" - Deep cavernous realm filled with screaching deafening winds that drive everyone insane.
The Abyss- Chatoic Evil - "Screw you jack, I got mine." - An Infinity of demons, going down uncounted layers (though some claim 666), each worse then the last in theory.
Carcerei - Evil but a little Chaotic - "You're bad and you should feel bad." - A prison plane
Hades - True Evil - "Nothing Matters" - Infinite bleakness, where you slowly loose the will to care about anything (including leaving) until you fade away to nothing but dust.
Gehena - Evil but a little lawful - "Resistance is futile" - Giant volcanos floating in space controled by Yugoloth Generals and warlords
Baator (the 9 hells) - Lawful Evil - "Yes, but if you read the fine print..." - Where you sell your soul to when you make faustian bargains.
Archeron - Lawful but a little evil - "I was just following orders..." - An eternal battlefield where armies clash forever on giant floating cubes.
Mechanus - True Lawful - "There's only one right path" - Huge mechanical plane made out of interlocking gears, many colonized by ant-like formians.
Arcadia - Lawful but a little good - "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." - Paladin afterlife, with an ultra-strict home owners association.
Celestia - Lawful Good - "Truth, justice, and the celestial way." - The conventional heavenly plane, in the form of a giant mountain you climb as you become purer.
Bytopia - Good but a little lawful - "Let's all do our part" - Gnomish afterlife, consisting of two planes one hanging over the other, with a communal spirit.
Outlands - True Nuetral - "Hey, lets not get carried away..." It connects and bleeds into all the other in a circle around it, with a 'portal town' at every junction. At it's center is a giant pillar that nulifies all magic as you approach, and gods and dieties are unable to approach. Floating in a ring on that pillar is the major planar city of Sigil, ruled by the Lady of pain.

Edit - added a d&D description of the planes, and added outlands which I totally spaced on.
This is the kind of post I love reading on this board.

Keep the good work up!

[aabicus]

Surprised there were no Star Wars references for strip 1138

[locksmith of lo]

As incredibly geeky-cool as I found all of the planar color pools being correct color-wise (IIRC, anyway) and even more or less in the right order.

what is also cool is that not only are the colours corresponding to each alignment, but it is paired equally with its opposite and with its contrasting colour. for example; black and white, blue and orange, green with a red, and with grey for true neutral. :smallbiggrin:

[b_jonas]

Protip: don't [circumnavigate the elemental planes]. The paraelemental planes are awful.Oh, I don't want to do it myself. But I'd like to see a protagonist do it. Not necessarily in Order of the Stick, but some other fantasy work.

[Casimir-Ivanova]

Sorry, Arcadia, but you lost your Gods and were falling apart when we got there.... (running Godbound joke)

I am entirely unsurprised Limbo is a square to all the other circles....for now at least. This is a very cleverly simple representation of how it all works. :)

[Shining Wrath]

"Don't you tell me what to do" being square was a nice touch. "Screw you jack, I got mine" being largest is probably ... accurate.

"Eh, you're not missing much" wins the award for Deific Irony for 2018.

Anyway, we're obviously on our way to a place where Thor stashed something he doesn't want anyone to find. Or where someone else stashed something, but Thor found it.

[ZiggyGuy]

I'm betting it was mentioned at some point (can't read all the comments!) but... wasn't the monster-in-the-shadows somehow aware of the astral plane? I hope we get some more clues about that here =P

[hamishspence]

I'm betting it was mentioned at some point (can't read all the comments!) but... wasn't the monster-in-the-shadows somehow aware of the astral plane? I hope we get some more clues about that here =P

Yup:


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html

[snafuy]

That would be "exactly as bad", ie "neither better nor worse".

Also, having every layer's fiends have identical badness would mean perfect uniformity. That implies no chaos...
Except that chaos defies your precious mathematical laws. Trichotomy? Transitivity? Amateurs! Wherever you are in the Abyss, any other part will be even worse, including going back to a place you were before.

Unless it isn't worse, but even then it still is, in a different way. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

[Leftour]

Nice strip. It feels good having at least one update every week.

I 'll throw my guess on the table: Durkon is rezzed earlier than expected; that is before Thor has time to tell him what 's going on. He tells instead Minrah who gets rezzed later by Durkon to deliver the message. Otherwise i see no reason for her still hanging around without a part to play.

[Sloanzilla]

This thread has about a 180% chance of turning into a Miko or Familicide debate.


That said, I love alignment chart debates. While the system is far from perfect, it does spark interesting discussions about morality and motivation. I do prefer the 5X5 charts, because they allow diagonal shifts toward neutrality. Let's say Belkar, while still chaotic evil, is still slightly more good (Lulz) and slightly more lawful (You're bad and you should feel bad) than the absolute. He winds up at Rebel Impure.

Just for the heck of it, I'd probably put Elan at Rebel Good and Hayley at Chaotic Moral. Roy gets Social Good and Durkon stays at Lawful Good. V? No clue.

[Yxylu]

Otherwise i see no reason for her still hanging around without a part to play.

She serves as the audience surrogate, asking questions about things that Durkon and Thor already know.

[schmunzel]

That's Limbo, the Chaotic Neutral plane.

Of course, Chaotic Neutrality goes much deeper than that...

Allegedly its mostly about killing people I heard :)
Sorry.
(Might help with planar fuel production though, so carry on)

sch

[Kish]

Lately, it seems like he's starting to think "I am bad and I should feel bad" (Tartarus, the CE/NE plane).
Tartarus is "You are bad and you should feel bad."

It's open to different readings, but for me, I'm reading that as a plane of harsh condemnation, not a plane of guilt.

[hamishspence]

Tartarus is "You are bad and you should feel bad."

It's open to different readings, but for me, I'm reading that as a plane of harsh condemnation, not a plane of guilt.

I imagine that quote as "What every Tarterian jailer says to the souls jailed in Tarterus" - given its role as the prison plane of the cosmos.

Mimir.net had an essay discussing the credos of each plane.

For Tartarus, it was:

http://mimir.net/essays/morals.html

Others have what you do not. Nobody gets anything without treading on someone else's feelings to get it. The ones who deserve to win will never win. There is always a bigger struggle beyond the horizon. The harder you try, the more they take away from you, so why bother? Life is not fair, because you can't win. Everyone dies in the end. You are trapped in the cage of society. If you can, slip between the bars and escape. Break their rules, else you will never get what you want. Steal if you dare, but don't expect them to be merciful if they catch you.

Manual of the Planes describes the souls of Tartarus as mostly criminals, not as condemnors of "immorality". It is a plane with Chaotic slant, not a Lawful one.

[Linneris]

Do the sizes correlate with the author's assessment of the relative prevalence of the alignments in the world? If so, bravo.

I think that if the size represents anything at all, it's probably Rich's assessment of the relative power of the planes in D&D. After all, if I'm not mistaken, the Lower Planes are powerful enough that the devils and demons would have steamrolled everyone had they not been busy with an eternal war against each other.

[CRenzi]

I find these two panels inordinately helpful.

[Snails]

Thor: Everything out here is made of ideas, when you get right down to it. Even me!

So the gods are made of thoughts? I guess that's how new gods are made, like the elven gods or the Dark One. If that's the case, then who was the first god? And who was there that had the thought to bring that first god into existence? Or were some gods always around?

Well, going with the "RL" Greek mythology, the Titans are mostly abstract concepts, which could be described as thoughts. The Gods trend towards personifications of human endeavors. Obviously it is hard to draw clear lines here.

The first were Uranus (Heaven) and Gaea (Earth), who gave birth to many titans, including Chronus (Time). Chronus usurped Uranus, eventually to be usurped by Zeus.

[Snails]

...But no point of the process is coerced, you ascend celestia because you want to BE celestia. At least that's always been my interpretation of it.

Good description.

From the nonbelievers POV, maybe it makes sense to complain about the soul being devoured. But from the perfected soul's POV, there is no difference between being devoured by Celestia and devouring all of Celestia. Who is the "winner"? They both are. As you said, two identical ideas are not "physical" different things in the outer planes.

[wumpus]

Quick Guide to the Outer Planes

Arcadia - Lawful but a little good - "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." - Paladin afterlife, with an ultra-strict home owners association.


Paladins should wind up on Celestia, as they are exemplars of good who are required to be lawful. Miko should be here (although that is controversial enough to spawn a huge thread), and almost certainly would be happiest there. The other Paladins should wind up in Celestia, possibly with an option of Bytopia.

[Onyavar]

Surprised there were no Star Wars references for strip 1138

Had to do a websearch to find out what you meant.
IMO, nobody but the most dedicated Star Wars fans are supposed to know such things about Star Wars numerology.

[happycrow]

Although, I do have to appreciate the irony of "Don't you tell me what to do!" (a very chaotic mindset) being square (which strikes me as more a lawful thing, for some reason).

Chaos reveals itself as an ordered system. What seems chaotic on the surface turns out to be a manic obsession with a SINGLE notion....the opposite of the LN notion.

[KorvinStarmast]

In your defense, D&D gnomes have always had an identity problem. For good reason. Dwarfs had usurped them years before. (Alberecht, (see Wagner, Ring of the Neigelung adapted from old legends) was a gnome ... and not a very nice fellow)

Paladins should wind up on Celestia, as they are exemplars of good who are required to be lawful. Miko should be here (although that is controversial enough to spawn a huge thread), and almost certainly would be happiest there. The other Paladins should wind up in Celestia, possibly with an option of Bytopia. I think that Soon explains to her quite clearly that, due to her falling and all 12 gods of that pantheon laying a penalty on her when she killed Shojo, that she was no longer eligible for Celestia until a form of redemption/atonement could happen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html). She may have stayed lawful, but I am pretty sure that "Good" left the building with Elvis ... hence no Celestia for her.

[Resileaf]

I think that Soon explains to here quite clearly that, due to her falling and all 12 gods of that pantheon laying a penalty on her when she killed Shojo, that she was no longer eligible for Celestia until a form of redemption/atonement could happen.

I think Wumpus meant that Miko would go to Arcadia, the "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" plane. The lawful neutral with a dash of good plane.

[dreast]

I have to point out that a succubus in my game (successfully) tempted a PC paladin to fall with, among other things, the argument: "If you die as you are now, you're going to end up in Celestia. Do you know what they make you do there? Climb a mountain forever! In Hell, that's a PUNISHMENT!"

I want a poster of this Astral plane (minus the characters and dialogue, bigger colour pools for better visual balance and easier reading, and planar labels on the pools) for my players to reference.

Also, responding to an earlier post, "For the lulz" is a great description of Pandemonium's denizens. It's hell for VISITORS, but the "people" who live there naturally are most famously hags, and then a motley assembly of fiends (mostly demons and a few 'loths), with notably a few mephits (mostly air) here and there. There is no more "for the lulz" D&D monster than a hag, except maybe a mephit.

[hamishspence]

I think Wumpus meant that Miko would go to Arcadia, the "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" plane. The lawful neutral with a dash of good plane.


"There's only one right path" is a very Mikoish thing to say though. I wouldn't rule out Mechanus.

"I was just following orders" is the sort of excuse that many of the Sapphire Guard could make for their atrocities back in their early days. Those ones might belong in Acheron (LN plane with very mild Evil), even if they were technically LG.

[Demon Prince]

I imagine that quote as "What every Tarterian jailer says to the souls jailed in Tarterus" - given its role as the prison plane of the cosmos.

Mimir.net had an essay discussing the credos of each plane.

For Tartarus, it was:

http://mimir.net/essays/morals.html

Others have what you do not. Nobody gets anything without treading on someone else's feelings to get it. The ones who deserve to win will never win. There is always a bigger struggle beyond the horizon. The harder you try, the more they take away from you, so why bother? Life is not fair, because you can't win. Everyone dies in the end. You are trapped in the cage of society. If you can, slip between the bars and escape. Break their rules, else you will never get what you want. Steal if you dare, but don't expect them to be merciful if they catch you.

Manual of the Planes describes the souls of Tartarus as mostly criminals, not as condemnors of "immorality". It is a plane with Chaotic slant, not a Lawful one.


The quote the giant used and the idea of people going to Carceri being criminals aren't incompatible with each other.

I would think of it sort of as "If you didn't want me robbing you, maybe you should have gotten better security." Victim-blaming as an ethos.

[Shining Wrath]

Interesting statement by Thor that he's made of thoughts.

That would imply the gods don't exist if no one believes in them (which is in accordance with some D&D theologies).

But that means that someone had to exist who believed, before the gods themselves. Which implies a world with people on it existed prior to the gods. Which means that something out there, a Prime Mover if you will, is capable of creating worlds and the gods just "help".

[Resileaf]

"There's only one right path" is a very Mikoish thing to say though. I wouldn't rule out Mechanus.

"I was just following orders" is the sort of excuse that many of the Sapphire Guard could make for their atrocities back in their early days. Those ones might belong in Acheron (LN plane with very mild Evil), even if they were technically LG.

I agree, there is a chance she could find herself in Mechanus as well, but she spent most of her life dutifully following the paladin code. As the person's entire life is judged, I would personally hedge my bets for her to be in Arcadia, but I certainly wouldn't go all in on it while Mechanus is a possibility.

[Fyraltari]

Interesting statement by Thor that he's made of thoughts.

That would imply the gods don't exist if no one believes in them (which is in accordance with some D&D theologies).

But that means that someone had to exist who believed, before the gods themselves. Which implies a world with people on it existed prior to the gods. Which means that something out there, a Prime Mover if you will, is capable of creating worlds and the gods just "help".

Not exactly new information, though. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html)

[KorvinStarmast]

"If you die as you are now, you're going to end up in Celestia. Do you know what they make you do there? Climb a mountain forever! In Hell, that's a PUNISHMENT!" A typical evil character using a lie to try and corrupt good. The depiction of Celestia as a journey ever up is that it is a journey toward hope and ultimate fulfillment and harmony. That's not punishment, that's a very positive expectation, and positive hope that will be realized ... and the journey itself is a peaceful/joyful one, not a burden.

In Hell, or rather in the various hells, every step is pain ...

[Resileaf]

A typical evil character using a lie to try and corrupt good. The depiction of Celestia as a journey ever up is that it is a journey toward hope and ultimate fulfillment and harmony. That's not punishment, that's a very positive expectation, and positive hope that will be realized ... and the journey itself is a peaceful/joyful one, not a burden.

In Hell, or rather in the various hells, every step is pain ...

Indeed. In Celestia, you feel no fatigue, no pain, no hunger, absolutely no downsides to the physical exertion that climbing a mountain would normally cause. In Hell, you probably feel all of those things a hundred times worse.

[Linneris]

Not exactly new information, though.

I don't really treat that one as being part of OOTS canon cosmology, what with it being a fourth-wall breaking tribute to a real person.

[Shining Wrath]

Not exactly new information, though. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html)

OK, then let's run with this.

We know there's another world inside the Rift.
We know that the gods argued over the threads of the new world and that created the Snarl.
We know that every campaign takes place in its own world, so there's lots and lots of worlds out there.

The gods don't exist until the world-creator says they do, and then they require thoughts to sustain them.
The influence of the gods on the world is therefore secondary to the influence of the world creator. They only have influence on decisions made after they come into existence. The OotSverse, where the world had to be remade post-Snarl, is unusual; most worlds the gods just have to play the hand they are dealt, just like mortals.

Like Greek mythos (and many others), the gods are just bigger, more powerful mortals.

[Fyraltari]

I don't really treat that one as being part of OOTS canon cosmology, what with it being a fourth-wall breaking tribute to a real person.

Considering how fourth-wall breaking the comic is, I don't see the harm in spicing its metaphysics with some metafiction.

[GiantFanOfGiant]

It's been awhile since I've read my Planescape lore—is there some explanation for Gehenna's tagline ("Resistance is futile") in terms of Planescape lore, or is it just a Star Trek reference? I ask because I know some otherwise odd taglines make sense if you know your lore (the Gray Waste makes everyone who visits depressed, hence "Nothing Matters"; Carceri is a prison plane, hence "You're bad and you should feel bad"). But Gehenna is ruled by the Yugoloths, who IIRC are more "unreliable mercenaries and possible secret puppetmasters of the multiverse" than "resistance is futile" types. But there might be something about their lore I'm missing.

[Borris]

I'm saddened by the copyright ban on githyanki, although a gish raid would only delay the plot from going forward.

[Cicciograna]

I feel that "How's a good boy? You are!" should definitely have planar dignity! Awesome explanation in ThorVision™!

[Peelee]

Had to do a websearch to find out what you meant.
IMO, nobody but the most dedicated Star Wars fans are supposed to know such things about Star Wars numerology.

Especially since it's not even a Star Wars reference, it's a THX-1138 reference. Lucas is known for throwing easter eggs to his previous stuff in movies. It's a Star Wars reference exactly as much as R2 and C-3PO are an Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade reference (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-mQ_w8KbTJ-U/UCBrlHBScpI/AAAAAAACrXI/N2pTBKidfQU/w530-h173-n/photo.jpg).

[The Shadow]

I've heard it (loosely) described as 'countably infinite' versus 'uncountably infinite'.

'Countably infinite' means that while you'll never reach the end, you can at least make progress knowing that you aren't skipping any numbers in the set (i.e. counting integers).

'Uncountably infinite' means that not only would you never reach the end, you can't even make progress without invariably skipping infinite numbers in the set (i.e. attempting to count real numbers).

Yes, I'm aware I didn't mention fractions.

Yes, aleph-null is the only countable infinite cardinal number. All higher cardinals are uncountable.

The reals are provably uncountable, so they have to be at least aleph-1. But the exact cardinality they have is disputed. Or perhaps I should say, what cardinality they "ought" to have, since the question isn't decidable within the usual axioms of set theory.

Also, some sets (like the rationals) appear at first to be uncountable, until you think of a clever method to count them. Collecting ways to count the rationals is a bit of a hobby of mine.

[DaggerPen]

In your defense, D&D gnomes have always had an identity problem.

I once saw a D&D inspired setting wherein gnomes and halflings were the same and "halfling" was a derogatory term for gnome. I honestly thought it was a pretty good solution


I agree, there is a chance she could find herself in Mechanus as well, but she spent most of her life dutifully following the paladin code. As the person's entire life is judged, I would personally hedge my bets for her to be in Arcadia, but I certainly wouldn't go all in on it while Mechanus is a possibility.

I could see either one for her (though I also lean towards Arcadia for similar reasons). What I can say is that I think she'd probably be pretty happy in either one. Sure, she'd mope around for the first few months, but Miko always struck me as pretty lonely, and suddenly being surrounded by people with the exact same variety of stick shoved where the sun don't shine would probably agree with her.

[Doug Lampert]

Should have been the offside rule.

I'm tempted to ask, "Which sport", but know I'd get the response of, "all of them".
Because pretty well all the sports except American Gridiron football that have an offside's rule have one that's not particularly easy to understand.

[Derian]

Everyone's talking about the planes, and that's cool.

What I was thinking about was Thor's metaphor to a rock and a melon too. Durkon's mind is the rock: Unyielding. Durkula's was the melon: Hard on the outside but utterly squishy on the inside and easy to crush with the right tool.

Now you just have me wondering what narrative purpose Durkula's mind being splattered across Durkon's will serve.

[jere7my]

Especially since it's not even a Star Wars reference, it's a THX-1138 reference. Lucas is known for throwing easter eggs to his previous stuff in movies. It's a Star Wars reference exactly as much as R2 and C-3PO are an Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade reference (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-mQ_w8KbTJ-U/UCBrlHBScpI/AAAAAAACrXI/N2pTBKidfQU/w530-h173-n/photo.jpg).

1138 has become a Star Wars reference, or at least a general Lucasfilm reference. It’s popped up in nearly every film and many episodes of the TV shows; channel 1138 is a Star Wars discussion board, not a THX-1138 discussion board; etc. It refers back ultimately to George’s first movie, but if you see a vanity license plate with 1138 on it it’s almost certainly a Star Wars reference, just as a raised hand with the first & second and third & fourth fingers touching is probably a Star Trek reference, not a reference to the Jewish blessing gesture Nimoy was inspired by.

[Snails]

Like Greek mythos (and many others), the gods are just bigger, more powerful mortals.

I would argue the truth of this statement is unknowable, and that applies to both the Greek gods and the OotSverse gods.

The artist has a practical problem of how much time and energy to spend explaining gods within a storyline that is primarily about normalish heroes. Not surprisingly, the effort efficient means of explaining gods is to treat them like people who can observed with human-like motivations, emotions, decisions, frustrations. I am not suggesting that anything about what we observe is wrong, but rather it is probably very very incomplete.

In fact, that is what I see as part of the joke of "shrink and simplify" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1135.html) -- the god is very literally dumbing himself down to a form that Durkon and the Readers can understand.

[brian 333]

Love the new Alignment Chart!

[EnvoyPV]

The priest of Thor struggles to come up with "enlightening" :biggrin:

[Goblin_Priest]

I'm saddened by the copyright ban on githyanki, although a gish raid would only delay the plot from going forward.

Does anyone know why WotC has/kept IP rights on some of these creatures...?

[knag]

I'm a little disappointed the colors of the LE/NE/CE planes don't correlate with the eye color of Lee, Nero, and Cedrik. It's close. CE (Abyss) is orange like Cedrik's eyes. CE/NE (Carceri) is purple like Nero's eyes, should be the Gray Wastes, but close enough, perhaps. But the yellow plane is LN (Mechanus) not LE (Baator).

I was really hoping that the color of Thor's aura would tell us something, but I have a real hard time believing he's Lawful Neutral. Oh well.

[Fyraltari]

Thor's aura is yellow because that is the color of the Gods of the North. Loki says as much. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html)

[knag]

Does anyone know why WotC has/kept IP rights on some of these creatures...?

Many if not most D&D creatures are based on either traditional folklore or other people's work, principally Tolkien. WOTC might be accused of overreaching if they tried to trademark their whole bestiary. In addition, they have endorsed the Open Gaming License framework for D&D games. To facilitate that approach, there needs to be a good number of creatures in the SRD to make the open game usable.

All of that is why they haven't reserved ALL of the Monster Manual as proprietary. Why they chose the particular ones who are reserved as "Product Identity" trademarks has to do with both whether the creature is truly original to D&D (mostly Gygax and White Dwarf creations) and whether the creature is important to the unique flavor of D&D, such as Mild Flayers, Beholders, and yes, Githyanki who are iconic enough to be on the cover of the original Fiend Folio and to be used as a shorthand for fighter/spellcasters ("gish") among players.

[Yuki Akuma]

Many if not most D&D creatures are based on either traditional folklore or other people's work, principally Tolkien. WOTC might be accused of overreaching if they tried to trademark their whole bestiary. In addition, they have endorsed the Open Gaming License framework for D&D games. To facilitate that approach, there needs to be a good number of creatures in the SRD to make the open game usable.

All of that is why they haven't reserved ALL of the Monster Manual as proprietary. Why they chose the particular ones who are reserved as "Product Identity" trademarks has to do with both whether the creature is truly original to D&D (mostly Gygax and White Dwarf creations) and whether the creature is important to the unique flavor of D&D, such as Mild Flayers, Beholders, and yes, Githyanki who are iconic enough to be on the cover of the original Fiend Folio and to be used as a shorthand for fighter/spellcasters ("gish") among players.

Note: 'gish' is a Gith word, not a corruption of Gith itself.

But yes, you're right that Githyanki (and Githzerai) are rather important to D&D's identity amongst a lot of hardcore fans.

[Shining Wrath]

I would argue the truth of this statement is unknowable, and that applies to both the Greek gods and the OotSverse gods.

The artist has a practical problem of how much time and energy to spend explaining gods within a storyline that is primarily about normalish heroes. Not surprisingly, the effort efficient means of explaining gods is to treat them like people who can observed with human-like motivations, emotions, decisions, frustrations. I am not suggesting that anything about what we observe is wrong, but rather it is probably very very incomplete.

In fact, that is what I see as part of the joke of "shrink and simplify" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1135.html) -- the god is very literally dumbing himself down to a form that Durkon and the Readers can understand.

Ah, but back at ya - if Thor is composed of ideas, meaning that he's the result of people's beliefs and need for a deity, than he can't possibly be beyond human(oid) understanding, because all that he is, came from us.

[Yuki Akuma]

Ah, but back at ya - if Thor is composed of ideas, meaning that he's the result of people's beliefs and need for a deity, than he can't possibly be beyond human(oid) understanding, because all that he is, came from us.

Not every being that believes in things is Humanoid. Some are Fey, Elementals, Aberrations, Magical Beasts...

[hamishspence]

As incredibly geeky-cool as I found all of the planar color pools being correct color-wise (IIRC, anyway)

They're not that close. Some matches, but not many.

Mechanus: Manual of the Planes colour: Diamond: OOTS colour: Yellow
Arcadia: Manual of the Planes colour: Saffron: OOTS colour: Yellow-green (very rough match)
Celestia: Manual of the Planes colour: Gold: OOTS colour: Pale blue
Bytopia: Manual of the Planes colour: Amber: OOTS colour: Dark blue
Elysium: Manual of the Planes colour: Opal: OOTS colour: Blue-white (rough match)
Beastlands: Manual of the Planes colour: Emerald: OOTS colour: Pale green (rough match)
Arborea: Manual of the Planes colour: Sapphire: OOTS colour: Dark green
Ysgard: Manual of the Planes colour: Indigo: OOTS colour: Blue-grey
Limbo: Manual of the Planes colour: Black: OOTS colour: Pink
Pandemonium: Manual of the Planes colour: Magenta: OOTS colour: Dark orange
Abyss: Manual of the Planes colour: Amethyst: OOTS colour: Pale orange
Carceri: Manual of the Planes colour: Olive: OOTS colour: Purple
Hades: Manual of the Planes colour: Rust: OOTS colour: Dark grey
Gehenna: Manual of the Planes colour: Russet: OOTS colour: Dark brown (rough match)
Baator: Manual of the Planes colour: Ruby: OOTS colour: Light red (very rough match)
Acheron: Manual of the Planes colour: Flame: OOTS colour: Dark red (very rough match)
Outlands: Manual of the Planes colour: Leather brown: OOTS colour: pale brown (very rough match)

So, 7 out of 17 match, roughly or very roughly.

[Ruck]

OK, then let's run with this.

We know there's another world inside the Rift.
We know that the gods argued over the threads of the new world and that created the Snarl.
We know that every campaign takes place in its own world, so there's lots and lots of worlds out there.

For the record, I'm not actually certain there is another world inside the rift; the Snarl may well be intelligent enough to disguise itself somehow. Or if there is another world, it might be world 1.0, but devoid of life (see #945).

[Snails]

Ah, but back at ya - if Thor is composed of ideas, meaning that he's the result of people's beliefs and need for a deity, than he can't possibly be beyond human(oid) understanding, because all that he is, came from us.

Well played. But. No.

The whole can be much greater than sum of the parts, even if the starting point of the theme of, say, "storm god" is understandable enough.

We would expect a storm god to actually understand storms better than any individual human who ever lived, wouldn't we? Is such a being required to not act on such insights? Are they required to dumb themselves down to human limitations before acting, even before thinking?


Not every being that believes in things is Humanoid. Some are Fey, Elementals, Aberrations, Magical Beasts...

Indeed. Did the most ancient Titans of Greek mythology even possess bodies in the sense than humans can understand? In some cases, maybe. Some of them clearly are not even creatures, but abstract principles that organize other ideas (or give birth to them, if you want to adhere to the original poetic descriptions).

Of course, in the OotSverse, I suppose it is possible that we have land and sea and rivers and sun and sky and food crops, etc. etc. with people living there before there were any gods. Then the gods were created by the thoughts of people.

That would cast the tragedy of the Snarl in a very different light though. In that case, I am with the Klingons -- the gods needed killing because they caused too much trouble.

[Yirggzmb]

Now you just have me wondering what narrative purpose Durkula's mind being splattered across Durkon's will serve.

I read it more as Thor reassuring the audience that Durkon will be fine. There were at least a few people wondering if Durkon's confusion was because he was secretly actually the vampire. Or if they had properly merged and it would cause effect later. Or whatnot. And this feels like him just saying "Nah, that's just an expected side effect. You'll be fine."

Not saying it's impossible for it to come up later. Just feels more likely to me that the most it will affect is Durkon perhaps knowing a few things he otherwise wouldn't, like the plans surrounding the Exarch.

[Snails]

For the record, I'm not actually certain there is another world inside the rift; the Snarl may well be intelligent enough to disguise itself somehow. Or if there is another world, it might be world 1.0, but devoid of life (see #945).

1.0 is quite possible.

My pet theory is Kraagor survived long enough for he and the Snarl to become friends. Inner world is a place they built together from left over 1.0 parts. Crafting whole continents! Kraagor is the happiest dwarf that ever lived.

[Rrmcklin]

"There's only one right path" is a very Mikoish thing to say though. I wouldn't rule out Mechanus.

"I was just following orders" is the sort of excuse that many of the Sapphire Guard could make for their atrocities back in their early days. Those ones might belong in Acheron (LN plane with very mild Evil), even if they were technically LG.

There's no "technically". If the Paladins didn't fall (which apparently some of them did), then they're still considered LG, and certainly aren't going to some evil planes. It's very simple.

[SkinTaker]

Apropos being "nauseous": (...)

The character with the hat is incorrect. Nauseous meant to feel sick before nauseated was even a word. Source is the Oxford English Dictionary.


And then there's the city of Sigil, set at the exact center of the Outlands (the center of an infinite space is where now?) and sitting on the top of a pillar that is infinitely tall.

D&D cosmology doesn't give a crap what physics has to say for itself.

The number line is infinite, yet there is an obvious center (0), so such a thing can exist. The set of real numbers (0,1] is infinite, yet it has an upper (and lower) bound. Ok, ok, maybe that one isn't the same type of infinite being expressed

Another great comic, Rich. I hope they go on forever.

[hamishspence]

There's no "technically". If the Paladins didn't fall (which apparently some of them did), then they're still considered LG, and certainly aren't going to some evil planes. It's very simple.

Acheron is a LN plane. Despite its very mild Evil tendencies, LN deities live there. Some LN deities have paladins. "The home plane of patron deity" has been known to trump "actual alignment" when it comes to appropriate destinations.

As such, Acheron can be an appropriate afterlife destination for paladins. Especially particularly horrible ones, like Gin-Jun and his followers from How The Paladin Got His Scar. Or that paladin from Origin of PCs, who tries to arrange Durkon's death because "he's annoying and hard to understand".

Gin-Jun, and That Paladin, might be "technically LG" but their ethos and attitude is nothing like "Truth, Justice, and the Celestial Way".

[nolongeralurker]

Haven't caught up, but, thoughts:

-We've now got confirmation that Durkon and Durkula merged together

-Minrah serves a further narrative purpose by eliciting an explantion about the Astral plane/other planes

-Speaking of which, I actually was very excited when I learned that "further" meant metaphorical distance and "farther" meant physical distance (which is easily remembered because it has "far" in it), so that's not something I forget now

-The portrayal of the planes was unexpected and very fun, didn't know I needed it

-Our [im]patient wait for Thor's revelation continues, though now we know it has to do with something hidden (thoughts about the Snarl??). Maybe it'll really be next page this time???

-Also, it's sad if you forget your anniversary or an idea for a novel

[Kish]

Especially particularly horrible ones, like Gin-Jun and his followers from How The Paladin Got His Scar. Or that paladin from Origin of PCs, who tries to arrange Durkon's death because "he's annoying and hard to understand".
Indeed. Gin-Jun is a more serious character, but the paladin in On the Origins of PCs makes it clear that in OotS, there is such a thing as "only technically Lawful Good."

[Fyraltari]

The character with the hat is incorrect. Nauseous meant to feel sick before nauseated was even a word. Source is the Oxford English Dictionary.

White Hat Guy generally exists to be wrong.

[JackRackham]

Wild speculation: They're about to find out souls from the world within the snarl are carving out their own space in the Astral Plane (or something along those lines - basically, we're going to learn that world is populated).

[rbetieh]

Quick Question, sorry if already asked...

Were the colors here supposed to correspond to the colors of the 3 fiends?

Would that make them from

"Theres Only One Right Path"
"Screw You Jack, I got Mine"
"You're Bad and you should feel bad"

?

[hamishspence]

Unlikely. Devils come from Baator (pale red pool here "If you read the fine print") but Lee has yellow eyes and yellow magic.

Cedrik's colour (orange) does match the Abyss though.

But Daemons (Nero) generally come from Gehenna or Hades (brown and black respectively) - not Tartarus (purple).

So, Nero doesn't match, and Lee doesn't match.

Cedrik's colours matching those of his pool, may not matter very much.

[Rockphed]

That would be "exactly as bad", ie "neither better nor worse".

Also, having every layer's fiends have identical badness would mean perfect uniformity. That implies no chaos...

Okay, so I should have said "increasing" instead of "non-decreasing". What I should probably have done was written out A<B<C<D<E... and B<C<E<A<D... and Q<T<A<P<Z...

In other words, all of the above relation are true. In my original formulation some of those less-thans are replaced with less-than-or-equal-tos, but I thought my implication was that not all of them were.


Except that chaos defies your precious mathematical laws. Trichotomy? Transitivity? Amateurs! Wherever you are in the Abyss, any other part will be even worse, including going back to a place you were before.

Unless it isn't worse, but even then it still is, in a different way. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Essentially, I was trying to get what Sanfuy said.

[Linneris]

Quick Question, sorry if already asked...

Were the colors here supposed to correspond to the colors of the 3 fiends?

Would that make them from

"Theres Only One Right Path"
"Screw You Jack, I got Mine"
"You're Bad and you should feel bad"

?
No.

"There's only one right path" (Mechanus) is the Lawful Neutral afterlife, while Lee, the yellow-colored archfield, is Lawful Evil.

I, too, immediately went to check their eye colors. Would have been a nice bit of visual continuity if Lee's eye color matched Baator (the light red "Yes, but if you read the fine print..." plane), but alas.

Edit: Ninja'd.

[rbetieh]

No.

"There's only one right path" (Mechanus) is the Lawful Neutral afterlife, while Lee, the yellow-colored archfield, is Lawful Evil.

I, too, immediately went to check their eye colors. Would have been a nice bit of visual continuity if Lee's eye color matched Baator (the light red "Yes, but if you read the fine print..." plane), but alas.

Edit: Ninja'd.

What if they do match and Lee is a Mole actually named LaNard?

#ElanTheories

[hamishspence]

"Red is devils' colour" might work better than "Yellow is devils' colour". Qaar (an imp) and that huge fiend that was petrified in Don't Split the Party (a devil - probably an advanced pit fiend) both speak with red-and-black text bubbles.

Redcloak's fiendish minion here

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html

(probably a Bearded Devil, since Redcloak is a LE cleric with the Law domain)

speaks in red-and-yellow.

[schmunzel]

That's a bizarre metaphysics. If the Outer Planes are formed from an idea and the beings that believe in that idea, that leads to the question of where these beings come from. The likely answer is the Material Plane. It still leaves the question of whether the ideas of the Outer Planes are created, or have always existed. If the former, it's possible for new Outer Planes to be created. If the latter, another question is what being first thought of those ideas.

the hen

sch

[Sir_Norbert]

-Speaking of which, I actually was very excited when I learned that "further" meant metaphorical distance and "farther" meant physical distance (which is easily remembered because it has "far" in it), so
that's not something I forget now

Then I'm sorry to point this out, but this is just as wrong as the misconception about "nauseous".

According to the OED, both farther and further have pretty much identical definitions, but "farther" is preferred (which does not mean it's right and "further" is wrong) as the comparative of "far"; "further" is preferred when it's not being used as a comparative.

The Moon is farther away than Paris. / I want to walk further tonight. (both physical distance)

Nothing could be farther from my thoughts right now. / I wouldn't trust him further than I could throw him. (both metaphorical)

[Mathguy]

This is a highly controversial statement among set theorists. I've seen arguments for alephs 1, 2, 3, and omega. There are probably others out there.

While Cantor thought it was likely aleph-1, that's by no means universally held. I don't think it's even the leading choice any more. Gödel thought it was likely aleph-2.

More information at Wikipedia. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_hypothesis)

As for the actual comic, I enjoyed it, but I want to get to the big reveal!

(Also, I've never liked the Gygaxian Outer Planes.)

Sorry, Aleph-Omega is the first thing it could NOT be. Any Cardinal which is the limit or union of only countably many smaller Cardinals can't be the Continuum. The proof is very cute.

[Goblin_Priest]

Many if not most D&D creatures are based on either traditional folklore or other people's work, principally Tolkien. WOTC might be accused of overreaching if they tried to trademark their whole bestiary. In addition, they have endorsed the Open Gaming License framework for D&D games. To facilitate that approach, there needs to be a good number of creatures in the SRD to make the open game usable.

All of that is why they haven't reserved ALL of the Monster Manual as proprietary. Why they chose the particular ones who are reserved as "Product Identity" trademarks has to do with both whether the creature is truly original to D&D (mostly Gygax and White Dwarf creations) and whether the creature is important to the unique flavor of D&D, such as Mild Flayers, Beholders, and yes, Githyanki who are iconic enough to be on the cover of the original Fiend Folio and to be used as a shorthand for fighter/spellcasters ("gish") among players.

Weren't mind flayers just rip offs from Chtullu?

What's iconic about the githyanki? I never really got that.

Beholder, I guess... seems like trouble for no gain, though.

[factotum]

Beholder, I guess... seems like trouble for no gain, though.

No gain? WOTC have to keep *some* intellectual property in D&D back or else they don't sell any more rulebooks or what-have-you--after all, why would you need them when all the information contained within is freely and legally available online?

[Gift Jeraff]

I can't help but wonder if the infodump is going to get directly planted into Durkon and Minrah's minds, and the readers won't see the big reveal until Durkon relays it to the rest of the party at the end of the book (similar to Blackwing revealing the planet to V).

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Then I'm sorry to point this out, but this is just as wrong as the misconception about "nauseous".

According to the OED, both farther and further have pretty much identical definitions, but "farther" is preferred (which does not mean it's right and "further" is wrong) as the comparative of "far"; "further" is preferred when it's not being used as a comparative.

The Moon is farther away than Paris. / I want to walk further tonight. (both physical distance)

Nothing could be farther from my thoughts right now. / I wouldn't trust him further than I could throw him. (both metaphorical)

"Farther and further have been used more or less interchangeably throughout most of their history, but currently they are showing signs of diverging. As adverbs they continue to be used interchangeably whenever spatial, temporal, or metaphorical distance is involved. But where there is no notion of distance, further is used <our techniques can be further refined>. Further is also used as a sentence modifier <further, the workshop participants were scarcely optimistic about some brave new world of higher education --L.B. Mayhew> but farther is not. A polarizing process appears to be taking place in their adjective use. Farther is taking over the meaning of distance <the farther shore> and further the meaning of addition <needed no further invitation>."
--Merriam-Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, Ninth Edition, page 450.

[Leliel]

It's been awhile since I've read my Planescape lore—is there some explanation for Gehenna's tagline ("Resistance is futile") in terms of Planescape lore, or is it just a Star Trek reference? I ask because I know some otherwise odd taglines make sense if you know your lore (the Gray Waste makes everyone who visits depressed, hence "Nothing Matters"; Carceri is a prison plane, hence "You're bad and you should feel bad"). But Gehenna is ruled by the Yugoloths, who IIRC are more "unreliable mercenaries and possible secret puppetmasters of the multiverse" than "resistance is futile" types. But there might be something about their lore I'm missing.

The Yugoloths want you to believe that they are merely unreliably mercenaries; they take their ever-increasing numbers as a sign that evil will be victorious in the end, because that is what spawns them-not souls, evil. They personify the simple belief that their power is ultimately invulnerable, and that they will always win in the end. So they take their time; why bother micromanaging everything when everything will turn out roses for you?

[Aditus]

Sorry, Aleph-Omega is the first thing it could NOT be. Any Cardinal which is the limit or union of only countably many smaller Cardinals can't be the Continuum. The proof is very cute.

I've been vaguely lurking on the math side of this thread for a bit (mostly, debating whether or not to jump in with talk of independence) so I was quite glad to learn something new today! It's a great proof, especially since I just read about König's Theorem the other day!

[Cerlis]

best orgasm cameo ever

[Garwain]

I love this comic. I learned how clouds taste, and now that ideas look like smooth silver mist. Loving it!

[ti'esar]

The Yugoloths want you to believe that they are merely unreliably mercenaries; they take their ever-increasing numbers as a sign that evil will be victorious in the end, because that is what spawns them-not souls, evil. They personify the simple belief that their power is ultimately invulnerable, and that they will always win in the end. So they take their time; why bother micromanaging everything when everything will turn out roses for you?

My take was more just that, while it's famous as a Star Trek line, "resistance is futile" also works as the motto of any conqueror, which fits with both yugoloths and the ethos of Gehenna in general.

[KorvinStarmast]

I just reviewed the comic again, paying closer attention to the artwork. The depiction of the silvery astral background is very nicely done. Nice touch. :smallsmile:

[DaggerPen]

I love this comic. I learned how clouds taste, and now that ideas look like smooth silver mist. Loving it!

Well, of course! Haven't you ever heard of brainfog? :smalltongue:

[Kish]

The Yugoloths want you to believe that they are merely unreliably mercenaries; they take their ever-increasing numbers as a sign that evil will be victorious in the end, because that is what spawns them-not souls, evil.
What happens to the souls of Neutral Evil people, then?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sorry, Aleph-Omega is the first thing it could NOT be. Any Cardinal which is the limit or union of only countably many smaller Cardinals can't be the Continuum. The proof is very cute.

...

But left out as an exercise to the reader, it seems.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

What happens to the souls of Neutral Evil people, then?

They hang around, then merge with the plane, becoming abstract quanta of evil.

Or they become petitioners - larvae - the currency of the Lower Planes, being used up a lot to power spells.

[2.5 cats]

Adding the voice to the chorus that the cosmology, as illustrated by the big panel on page 2, was beautifully done.

One unusual (unique?) thing about this 2-page comic is it really feels more like two 1-page comics than one 2-page comic. There's definitely a punchline at the end of page 1, and the subject changes somewhat between the two.

[Goblin_Priest]

No gain? WOTC have to keep *some* intellectual property in D&D back or else they don't sell any more rulebooks or what-have-you--after all, why would you need them when all the information contained within is freely and legally available online?

Are they still selling any 3.5 books?

All they have to do is keep IP rights on current editions, and let go of the rest.

If we never picked up on 4.0, it wasn't because 3.5 was OGL (we already had bought a gazillion books). It was because it sucked.

If we ever pick up on 5.0 (it was way easier to pick up new rulesets as kids...), it's because the ruleset has appeal, and adresses many issues we have with 3.x.

What's certainly *not* going to lure us to 5.0 is the possibility to fight the Beholder or play githyanki.

Because 1) seriously, why should we care about them? and 2) if we wanted to fight a Beholder in Pathfinder, we just would, it's not like the conversion is hard.

But meh, it's moot I guess. Ain't gonna change their minds! ;)

[Rogar Demonblud]

You obviously don't follow the hobby any more. WotC is selling most of their back catalog as PDFs on DMs Guild and Drive-Thru. Once they find good copies to scan, they'll probably have the rest.

[Snails]

...

But left out as an exercise to the reader, it seems.


Imagine you have an infinite list, which is a specific kind of set. A "list" meaning you can put in it an order and eventually cover everything, given infinite "time". This can be proven by showing any given element in there will be reached in a finite amount of time, even if the timeframe is very long. Mathematically, we can say that any element in that set must have be the nth element, where the exact number is knowable, even if it might be very hard to calculate.

Imagine you have an infinite list of infinite lists -- that being the thing we really care about understanding here. As the list of lists is, itself, a list, we can label their elements like so: L1, L2, L3, .... where each L is a list.

So, we can think about an element within one of these elements as LN.M.

The first element in the first list is L1.1.

Now, imagine this series:
L1.1,
L2.1, L1.2,
L3.1, L2.2, L1.3,
etc.

Now pick any one element on any of the lists. Under this system it must have a designation like LX.Y. Can we calculate how "long" it takes to reach that element? Yes. Give me a concrete X and a Y, and I can calculate exactly how far down my master list it will be found.

Does this series itself now look like a list the covers everything the list of lists happened to cover?

If it is, then we are done.

[factotum]

Are they still selling any 3.5 books?

All they have to do is keep IP rights on current editions, and let go of the rest.

How is a beholder or mind flayer from 3.5 edition any different from the same monster in 5.0? It's the concept and appearance which is copyrighted, not a stat block.

[Snails]

How is a beholder or mind flayer from 3.5 edition any different from the same monster in 5.0? It's the concept and appearance which is copyrighted, not a stat block.

It could easily be both, BTW.

WotC wants to exploit "marquee" images they own to sell stuff. They want the competitive advantage to use, say, dragons and beholders and knights in shining armor that say D&D, instead of dragons and knights in shining armor that say generic fantasy. That is totally legit.

The Giant wants to tell stories. And while using WotC stuff for in 1 page for a joke is trivially defensible as fair use, defending a character that shows up and matters and is overtly gith, that is just a big unnecessary hassle. (And if the character does not matter much, why not just use someone non-gith?)

Perhaps WotC only really needs to defend X and can let Y go. Maybe. But they are not going to spend a dime on lawyers fees on exactly how to do that. And they do not want the hassle of someone in the future saying "oh I totally get to put a beholder on my cover that looks exactly like yours because of Y".

[Mathguy]

Imagine you have an infinite list, which is a specific kind of set. A "list" meaning you can put in it an order and eventually cover everything, given infinite "time". This can be proven by showing any given element in there will be reached in a finite amount of time, even if the timeframe is very long. Mathematically, we can say that any element in that set must have be the nth element, where the exact number is knowable, even if it might be very hard to calculate.

Imagine you have an infinite list of infinite lists -- that being the thing we really care about understanding here. As the list of lists is, itself, a list, we can label their elements like so: L1, L2, L3, .... where each L is a list.

So, we can think about an element within one of these elements as LN.M.

The first element in the first list is L1.1.

Now, imagine this series:
L1.1,
L2.1, L1.2,
L3.1, L2.2, L1.3,
etc.

Now pick any one element on any of the lists. Under this system it must have a designation like LX.Y. Can we calculate how "long" it takes to reach that element? Yes. Give me a concrete X and a Y, and I can calculate exactly how far down my master list it will be found.

Does this series itself now look like a list the covers everything the list of lists happened to cover?

If it is, then we are done.

That’s only the first part of the proof. It shows that the product of the continuum (that is, the cardinality of the real numbers or the set of subsets of the integers) with itself countably many times is still the same size as the continuum. In real number terms: if you have a countable infinite set of real numbers, you can code them up as a single real number by merging the decimal digits together, after first transforming so the real numbers are all between 0 and 1.

Then you have to use Konig’s Theorem : if two collections of sets {A1, A2, A3, ...} and {B1, B2, B3, ...} have cardinalities satisfying |Ai|<|Bi| for all i, then the Union of the A’s is smaller than the Product of the B’s!

The proof of Konig’s Theorem is left as a further exercise, and requires the Axiom of Choice.

[Sloanzilla]

I tried to one word post "nerds" but the ten word min kicked in.

[Ironsmith]

I tried to one word post "nerds" but the ten word min kicked in.

You. Guys. Are. A. Bunch. Of. Freaking. Nerds.

Dang, still two short.

[Bob_McSurly]

You. Guys. Are. A. Bunch. Of. Freaking. Nerds.

Dang, still two short.

We're posting in a thread about a webcomic which is based on a rpg. I feel like "nerd" is kind of a given.

[Ironsmith]

We're posting in a thread about a webcomic which is based on a rpg. I feel like "nerd" is kind of a given.

I'm aware. I just felt like expanding on the joke a bit. Although I'm pretty sure we're technically geeks, not nerds. Also not to be confused with dorks, slackers, or clique-baters, who are all completely different classes of people.

[Ruck]

You. Guys. Are. A. Bunch. Of. Freaking. Nerds.

Dang, still two short.

It's actually ten characters, not ten words.

(See?)

[Ironsmith]

It's actually ten characters, not ten words.

(See?)

Huh. Okay, then.

[Snails]

Huh. Okay, then.

Neeeeeeerd!

[Particle_Man]

I can think of an exemplar of “you are bad and should feel bad” from the webcomic Dumbing of Age. Mike in that comic is evil and does everything to hurt others. His justification is that “Everyone is guilty. No one is without sin.” So I can see him justifying his actions by thinking that his victims are bad and thus should feel bad.

This also works for criminals that think that their victims (or indeed everyone) don’t deserve to have X so it will be taken away or destroyed.

Edit: I thought Red Cloak specifically did not have the Law domain as he thought it had nice spells when his opponent the cleric from Azure City used a spell from it in the Clerical spell duel. Are not goblins ne?

[Fyraltari]

It's also the justification of every self-righteous asshat who think someone must be "punished" for their "crimes".

[Peelee]

I tried to one word post "nerds" but the ten word min kicked in.


It's actually ten characters, not ten words.

(See?)


Neeeeeeerd!

Nerds. THERE IS NO TEXT HERE I PROMISE YOU YOU'RE IMAGINING IT FAKE NEWS!

[Kish]

Goblins are as reliably Neutral Evil as elves are Chaotic Good or halflings True Neutral.

What that means to the specific character Redcloak is left as an exercise for the reader. He has himself used the same spell (Hold Monster) that made him comment on the high priest of the Twelve Gods having the Law domain.

[Particle_Man]

Which number did he use Hold Monster in? I wonder if his cloak gives him some extra abilities.

[TheStranger]

Nerds.

NERDS! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZVdR19E5mU)
These are not the characters you're looking for.

[Peelee]

NERDS! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZVdR19E5mU)

OK TheStranger gets my vote.

[Kish]

Which number did he use Hold Monster in? I wonder if his cloak gives him some extra abilities.
Y'want to try and cram Redcloak into an alignment defined by his race rather than anything in the comic, you can do it without me.

[Grey Watcher]

Am I the only one who thought the Evil and sorta Chaotic plane's motto was meant to specifically reference this? https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/your-musics-bad-and-you-should-feel-bad

[Rockphed]

Am I the only one who thought the Evil and sorta Chaotic plane's motto was meant to specifically reference this? https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/your-musics-bad-and-you-should-feel-bad

No, and I don't even know the half of that meme.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I'm almost certain that Redcloak is Lawful Evil. It's the big picture, the plan, that drives him. He'll sacrifice any individual goblinoid (or any thousand goblinoids) if it will further his plan to change the place of the goblinoids in the universe.

Xykon's almost certainly Chaotic Evil. He doesn't care about gods or continents or civilizations or the natural order of things nearly so much as he cares about the fact that being able to cast Meteor Swarm is awesome and seeing schmucks suffer for no reason is hilarious. Power is power, and Xykon has it, and he does what he wants.

The contrast sets up comedic back-and-forth dialogues, and also plot-important long-term conflict.