The astral plane and thoughts-xykon

[WolvesbaneIII]

What are all the thoughts present? Will xykon see through red cloaks plans because those important thoughts leaked into the astral plane? This realm seems to have more importance than just "xykons domain" being there.

supposing that red cloak is not aware of that, xykon might have recruited a new cleric "just in case". what was that guys name? jirix? he could be leveled up in time to make him good enough to cast the right spells right?

And what do you guys wanna bet minrahs private secret will be revealed as a joke later on here?

Anyone else have thoughts on that? post them here before they go to the astral plane.

[SlashDash]

The odds of a goblin cleric replacing Redcloak makes no sense. Redcloak is going to betray Xykon because their goals are different.

Xykon is up for global domination while Redcloak follows the Dark One's plan to give goblins the upper hand.


So any goblin that would replace Redcloak will be in the same situation.

If Redcloak is replaced, it will be someone closer to Xykon. Like... one of the vampire clerics?







Also, I don't think Xykon can read Redcloak's thoughts. If those are the thoughts of everyone in the universe, then you'd have a hard time knowing who is whom.

Heck, why would Xykon waste time on stuff like interrogating Ochul if he could just read his thoughts like that?

[Otomodachi]

Heck, why would Xykon waste time on stuff like interrogating Ochul if he could just read his thoughts like that?

He didn't, that was Redcloak's schtick. Xykon just enjoys playing with paladins.

[Spore]

I want the planes on the last big panel as a poster. Elemental plane of lulz.

[hroþila]

He didn't, that was Redcloak's schtick. Xykon just enjoys playing with paladins.
But Xykon allowed it instead of moving on because Redcloak convinced him that learning more about the next Gate (by interrogating O-Chul) was necessary before proceeding.

[Goblin_Priest]

What are all the thoughts present? Will xykon see through red cloaks plans because those important thoughts leaked into the astral plane? This realm seems to have more importance than just "xykons domain" being there.

supposing that red cloak is not aware of that, xykon might have recruited a new cleric "just in case". what was that guys name? jirix? he could be leveled up in time to make him good enough to cast the right spells right?

And what do you guys wanna bet minrahs private secret will be revealed as a joke later on here?

Anyone else have thoughts on that? post them here before they go to the astral plane.

Maybe he's bringing Durkon to see his long repressed feelings? ;)

[WolvesbaneIII]

no, what I meant was that can xykon read thoughts while on the astral plane? this could be a plot point for later.

[Yuki Akuma]

Searching the Astral Plane for specific thoughts requires an active use of magic or psionics, and I don't think Xykon has any spells that do that.

[Fyraltari]

no, what I meant was that can xykon read thoughts while on the astral plane? this could be a plot point for later.

The thoughts don't seem to point to their thinkers, so the chance that Xykon would stumble upon Red's thoughts in the middle of those of everyone and those would be relevant instead of "Damn, we're out of gouda" are ... astronomically low.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Searching the Astral Plane for specific thoughts requires an active use of magic or psionics, and I don't think Xykon has any spells that do that.

he doesn't have to look for it. he could have found incriminating evidence by accident.

[TheTinyMan]

... astronomically low.

L...like one-in-a-million?!

[Fyraltari]

L...like one-in-a-million?!

More like 1/894,567

Now maybe if he was hanging upside down with his eyes covered he'd have a better shot at this.

[martianmister]

L...like one-in-a-million?!

More like one-in-a-trillion.

[Jaros]

he doesn't have to look for it. he could have found incriminating evidence by accident.

The chances of stumbling across a specific thought amongst all thoughts that would be clear enough to be incriminating and point towards the owner are low enough that it would really stretch credibility as a plot point. Like, say, two separate characters both randomly finding winning lottery tickets on the same week.

[TheTinyMan]

More like one-in-a-trillion.

:elan: TAKE COVER!

[Yuki Akuma]

he doesn't have to look for it. he could have found incriminating evidence by accident.

That's not really how the Astral Plane works, though.

Also it would be really lame.

[WolvesbaneIII]

The chances of stumbling across a specific thought amongst all thoughts that would be clear enough to be incriminating and point towards the owner are low enough that it would really stretch credibility as a plot point. Like, say, two separate characters both randomly finding winning lottery tickets on the same week.

unless it was about xykon himself, and he thought it was some cool monster encounter he could beat for xp, and it turned out to be red cloaks thoughts, as it was specific enough to be about how he controls xykon and other things.

Xykon pretends to be stupid, but uses his charisma to play it off that way. Then when things turn out badly enough, he goes EVIL with all caps. like how he toyed with varsuuivus, and then went all out to kill it when he was about to lose his phylactory.

didn't he get a bonus to listen checks as a lich? not that it would really matter for anything other than listening for invisible elves, and maybe peeping in on gossip about him in an astral plane like place. And it turned out the gossip was people! or from a goblinoid person rather.

Him being in the astral plane would be the foreshadowing necesary, not that it has to be that way. It could just be 2 things that over lap, and aren't plot related at all.

Also, 2 people do get winning lottery tickets on the same week. some times more. While I get what you are saying, that doesn't make it any less likely.

[Jaros]

Also, 2 people do get winning lottery tickets on the same week. some times more. While I get what you are saying, that doesn't make it any less likely.

I don't mean two people winning the lottery, I mean having two characters in the same story randomly finding winning lottery tickets. Writing something in with odds that low, as an important dramatic plot point would seem absurd. There's so little dramatic tension in it, when their entire plotline has been building up to their confrontation.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I don't mean two people winning the lottery, I mean having two characters in the same story randomly finding winning lottery tickets. Writing something in with odds that low, as an important dramatic plot point would seem absurd. There's so little dramatic tension in it, when their entire plotline has been building up to their confrontation.

hmm. I don't think thats really a good comparison still.

Xykon doesn't have to look for redcloaks thoughts per say, but stumble across his or someone elses thoughts that would give him that impression.

I'm not saying he has to do that, but that it could happen, much like how durkon over rode his vampire selfs mind. A feat that seemed impossible. This is just xykon getting paranoid from the astral planes thoughts and connecting dots that were assumed to be red cloaks, but weren't.

If he didn't find redcloaks thoughts, its fine. he doesn't have to, the story moves on regardless.

[Goblin_Priest]

Xykon accidentally stumbling upon Redcloak's thoughts while on the astral plane would be an incredibly lame plot device, imo.

[Snails]

Also, 2 people do get winning lottery tickets on the same week. some times more. While I get what you are saying, that doesn't make it any less likely.

No, it is still obscenely unlikely that it would simply not happen. Worse than unlikely, it would instantly destroy all suspension of disbelief.

Think through what would really occur 999999999999 times out of 1000000000000, it goes like this: Xykon stumbles across a scary (to him) thought. He investigates. His investigation takes four months of time and leads him to a nobody plotting against some other villain. In the mean time, reports get back to him that Good Guys have fortified Kraagor's Gate with layers of defenses.

At this point, does Xykon do (1) swear to never ever get distracted by thoughts on the Astral Plane again, or (2) examines another random thought and invests 4 more months of time?

Furthermore, dramatically speaking, it would suck. It would be a completely unearned boon without apparent downside -- basically a Mary Sue of Villains moment.

At least when V got a boon out of nowhere from the IFCC, it was to solve a problem that sort of came from somewhere, and everyone including V recognized at the time there were high odds that V would regret what was to come from that "free" pile of magical power.

[WolvesbaneIII]

No, it is still obscenely unlikely that it would simply not happen. Worse than unlikely, it would instantly destroy all suspension of disbelief.

Think through what would really occur 999999999999 times out of 1000000000000, it goes like this: Xykon stumbles across a scary (to him) thought. He investigates. His investigation takes four months of time and leads him to a nobody plotting against some other villain. In the mean time, reports get back to him that Good Guys have fortified Kraagor's Gate with layers of defenses.

At this point, does Xykon do (1) swear to never ever get distracted by thoughts on the Astral Plane again, or (2) examines another random thought and invests 4 more months of time?

Furthermore, dramatically speaking, it would suck. It would be a completely unearned boon without apparent downside -- basically a Mary Sue of Villains moment.

At least when V got a boon out of nowhere from the IFCC, it was to solve a problem that sort of came from somewhere, and everyone including V recognized at the time there were high odds that V would regret what was to come from that "free" pile of magical power.

But I said it didn't have to be red cloaks. Just something that tipped him off but was by accident.

his reaction to RC killing tsukiko seemed more than just "oh. he actually did it."

how does one probe the astral plane for thoughts if you don't mind me asking? how high of a level and what class does one have to be to do that with any precision. Xykon does not have the ability to do so from what another guy said, so why couldn't he do that with someone elses help? like threten a high level (insert class here)?

Not saying he has to, but that wouldn't be impossible either. he was gone for long stretches of time to build the fortress, and other magic items apparently. who's to say a little murder and extortion isn't on the menu either?

Quick note-none of these "what if" threads should be taken entirely serious. Just have fun with it. if its really unlikely, then it should be spoken on with the intent for having a fun discussion, but you can contribute to said thread for real if you so choose to do so.

[Elanasaurus]

But I said it didn't have to be red cloaks. Just something that tipped him off but was by accident.Like what? Some other goblin thinking of the Dark One's plan with the gates?
Quick note-none of these "what if" threads should be taken entirely serious. Just have fun with it. if its really unlikely, then it should be spoken on with the intent for having a fun discussion, but you can contribute to said thread for real if you so choose to do so.This is how Playgrounders have a fun discussion.
:elan:

[Emanick]

how does one probe the astral plane for thoughts if you don't mind me asking?

I don't think there's an established way to do this at all, which is part of the reason why nobody seems to think it's very likely that Xykon did it.

[Yuki Akuma]

This is how Playgrounders have a fun discussion.
:elan:

Basically, yeah.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Like what? Some other goblin thinking of the Dark One's plan with the gates?This is how Playgrounders have a fun discussion.
:elan:

not necesarily a goblin, just something along the lines of using a person or thing to their advantage. xykon has no reason to trust redcloak either. He doesn't need the astral plane to make him turn on redcloak. supposedly he has the MITD hynotized to eat him on a certain command. then theres that stunt in the azure city. losing his phylactory pushed things to the level they are now. he won't let RC hold his phylactory anymore.

So the astral plane influencing him is just an idea, as of yet unproven and unlikely.

[Snails]

But I said it didn't have to be red cloaks. Just something that tipped him off but was by accident.

My answer is the same. When you introduce this concept of probing the Astral for stray thoughts, logically speaking (if we care about such things like logic at all), the "tip off" can be a red herring. Not only can it be a red herring, it is astronomically more likely that it will lead someone astray and waste time to no useful ends.

There are already spells in D&D that are similar to reading tea leaves, whose mechanics are tapping the wisdom of powerful extraplanar forces (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm). Why are we guessing there must be a much better way to do that just because it is possible to go to one of those many infinite planes?


how does one probe the astral plane for thoughts if you don't mind me asking? how high of a level and what class does one have to be to do that with any precision.

What you seem to be after is how one can exploit Astral planar metaphysics to achieve a small but practical slice of omniscience. The answer is the designers/authors do not want there to be a way to do that because it would obliterate the game and obliterate the story.

No one wants a game or story where characters of a certain power level can simply access nuggets of omniscience in a practical manner.

What's the answer to the riddle?
I know! I will use nuggets of omniscience! Ta da! Solved.

Where has the lich hidden his phylactery?
I know! I will use nuggets of omniscience! Ta da! Solved.

Which Gate is Xykon going to attack first?
I know! I will use nuggets of omniscience! Ta da! Solved.

What are the defenses of Girard's Gate?
I know! I will use nuggets of omniscience! Ta da! Solved.

Where is Girard's Gate located?
I know! I will use nuggets of omniscience! Ta da! Solved.

Logically speaking, you could write a story or design a game where such exists. But nobody else has for reasons.

Frank Herbert sort of got there with his Kwisatz Haderach prescience, but he was forced to shackle it with limitations (e.g. the application of prescience inevitably fogs prescience) or he could no longer tell any stories.

[Dion]

What are all the thoughts present? Will xykon see through red cloaks plans because those important thoughts leaked into the astral plane?

I think there are two reasons why it doesn’t work that way.

First, my personal belief is that Astral Plane ideas exist independently of the people who believe them. Suppose Xykon finds a stray idea floating around in the Astral plane, like “Redcloak will betray Xykon”. What the heck is Xykon going to do with that idea? He has no way of knowing if Redcloak believes it. Maybe it’s there because O’Chul believes it, or maybe even because Xykon himself believes It!

But second, the comic explicitly says, quote: “it’s a great place to stash stuff you don’t want anyone else to find”. In other words, even the gods themselves don’t have a way of searching the astral plane.

[Benjamin Vazque]

It's an intriguing idea, and unlike a couple of the posters here I actually think it could possibly work from a story perspective. I think there has been enough foreshadowing to justify its use, and the Giant has made weirder twists work in the past. But I'd echo the large likelihood of some kind of red herring being what Xykon actually finds. Note that these lost ideas are ones which have been thought at some point, so it's possibly Xykon stumbles across, say, some old plan of Redcloak's that he discarded years ago.

Enjoy,
Benjamin A. Vazquez, U.E.

[Snails]

It's an intriguing idea, and unlike a couple of the posters here I actually think it could possibly work from a story perspective. I think there has been enough foreshadowing to justify its use, and the Giant has made weirder twists work in the past.

Contact Other Plane and Divination are known 3.5 spells. The lack of exploitation of the known options to date is the equivalent of foreshadowing that a funky and new and better means of doing similar is not going to show up in this comic.

[WolvesbaneIII]

It's an intriguing idea, and unlike a couple of the posters here I actually think it could possibly work from a story perspective. I think there has been enough foreshadowing to justify its use, and the Giant has made weirder twists work in the past. But I'd echo the large likelihood of some kind of red herring being what Xykon actually finds. Note that these lost ideas are ones which have been thought at some point, so it's possibly Xykon stumbles across, say, some old plan of Redcloak's that he discarded years ago.

Enjoy,
Benjamin A. Vazquez, U.E.

Thats a good idea. allow me to elaborate even further. The evil demon trio, I forget their names and group name, could leave incriminating thoughts to lead xykon into believing something. Something that would make him doubt redcloaks true nature.

After all, they put into action the soul splice thing to kick xykon out of his comfort zone, to make him a bit more proactive. Who's to say they couldn't leave "thoughts" that would be in line with redcloaks true thoughts, and are conveniently next to xykon as he builds the fort. because they were stashed there with the intention of xykon stumbling onto them. And it all goes according to plan, and was not even an accident after all.

[Benjamin Vazque]

The evil demon trio, [Leo, Nero & Cedric], could leave incriminating thoughts to lead xykon into believing something. Something that would make him doubt redcloaks true nature.

This is an awesome thought. I approve.
We really have no idea what the fields want, or what the limits of their power is.

Enjoy,
Benjamin A. Vazquez, U.E.

[WolvesbaneIII]

This is an awesome thought. I approve.
We really have no idea what the fields want, or what the limits of their power is.

Enjoy,
Benjamin A. Vazquez, U.E.

I found it on the astral plane.

[ORione]

We really have no idea what the fields want

Destructive unnecessary conflict (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html).

[thereaper]

This would be completely unnecessary anyway, because Xykon already has suspicions that he's being lied to. That was the whole reason he had Tsukiko investigate the gate ritual.

[Dion]

This would be completely unnecessary anyway, because Xykon already has suspicions that he's being lied to. That was the whole reason he had Tsukiko investigate the gate ritual.

Also, Redcloak told Xykon that he murdered Tsukiko while she was investigating the gate ritual. I'd imagine that set off some alarm bells in Xykon's skull.

[Rotipher]

Contact Other Plane and Divination are known 3.5 spells. The lack of exploitation of the known options to date is the equivalent of foreshadowing that a funky and new and better means of doing similar is not going to show up in this comic.

For all we know, skimming the accumulated thoughts of the Astral Plane for insight is precisely how Divination works in OotS! In fact, it would make sense for the spell to work that way, as it explains why it sometimes retrieves riddles or cryptic clues rather than simple statements: it doesn't summarize what it finds in the Astral thought-stream, it just relays the most relevant thought it manages to turn up.

[Snails]

For all we know, skimming the accumulated thoughts of the Astral Plane for insight is precisely how Divination works in OotS! In fact, it would make sense for the spell to work that way, as it explains why it sometimes retrieves riddles or cryptic clues rather than simple statements: it doesn't summarize what it finds in the Astral thought-stream, it just relays the most relevant thought it manages to turn up.

Possibly. However Divination and Contact Other Plane seem to operate on the basis of gods or deity-like beings helping the process along. To attempt to do this directly appears to far far beyond mortal magic, at least as far as we can tell.

I could imagine an Epic-level character whose specializes in divinations attempting such a thing. But that idea does not apply to the OotS story, for the obvious reasons.

If Xykon (or anyone else) wanted to rely on divination-style magic to help them achieve their goals, the known rules allow for spending resources in that direction. To create a new process that is effectively "out of whole cloth" is a desperate gamble that seems certain to just waste time.

IMNSHO The Giant has shown very clear indications that he is not interested in writing that kind of story. He already has the Oracle. If some character wants to go back the Oracle, that is possible. But we are not going to see a new Super Oracle appear out of nowhere at this point in the tale. Never going to happen.

[WolvesbaneIII]

This would be completely unnecessary anyway, because Xykon already has suspicions that he's being lied to. That was the whole reason he had Tsukiko investigate the gate ritual.

suspicions...but did those suspicions become more apparent and pronounced from his time in the astral plane? probably not.

It was a fun theory for the moment it was discussed.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Also, Redcloak told Xykon that he murdered Tsukiko while she was investigating the gate ritual. I'd imagine that set off some alarm bells in Xykon's skull.

Minor correction; RC told Xykon he killed Tsukiko while she was snooping in his office and then questioned Xykon if he knew why. Xykon lied through his teeth and said no, while RC pretended to be utterly uninterested in the why and Xykon got really defensive and both willfully changed the topic. The point of distinction here is that RC was playing his long con, nipping Xykon's plans in the bud while throwing out a face of ignorance.

[Benjamin Vazque]

For all we know, skimming the accumulated thoughts of the Astral Plane for insight is precisely how Divination works in OotS! In fact, it would make sense for the spell to work that way, as it explains why it sometimes retrieves riddles or cryptic clues rather than simple statements: it doesn't summarize what it finds in the Astral thought-stream, it just relays the most relevant thought it manages to turn up.

Quite possible. It would require some exposition to make it work, but I could see it fitting together really well.

Enjoy,
Benjamin A. Vazquez, U.E.

[Dion]

Minor correction; RC told Xykon he killed Tsukiko while she was snooping in his office and then questioned Xykon if he knew why.

You’re right, and I don’t disagree. But he knew. And he knew he knew. And he knew he knew he knew.

I don’t have any good reason for brininging that up, except I’ve always wanted to type “he knew he knew he knew”, and this was my best chance.

[Rotipher]

Possibly. However Divination and Contact Other Plane seem to operate on the basis of gods or deity-like beings helping the process along.

Contact Other Plane specifically states that it involves communication with powerful otherworldly entities, as does Commune. But Divination's spell description says no such thing. Indeed, if Divination draws upon accumulated Astral Plane thoughts rather than any specific being(s), that would explain why it's much less reliable than other Divination-school spells of similar level - it's essentially a "lucky dip" of random musings the caster can only hope prove relevant, not knowledge purposefully conveyed by an informed source - and why it exists as a different spell than those, in the first place.