What about the Elemental Planes?

[CawCawMarmalade]

If all planes beside the Prime are made of thoughts, what kind of thoughts created the Elemental Planes?
Something like this perhaps?

"Now that. That is a rock."
"Whoa, its really hot in here."
"Dude, this is a heck of some ranch dressing right here."

Or do those have another origin?

[hamishspence]

I think Thor was only referring to the Astral Plane and the Outer Planes when he talked about "everything out here" being "made of thoughts".

[Yuki Akuma]

The Inner Planes are not made of thoughts - they're made of matter, just like the Prime is. They're connected to the Prime via the Ethereal, and don't touch the Astral at all.

[hamishspence]

The Inner Planes are not made of thoughts - they're made of matter, just like the Prime is. They're connected to the Prime via the Ethereal, and don't touch the Astral at all.

They do have color pools to it in Manual of the Planes - but so does the Material Plane. In that respect, the Astral plane touches them.

[Jasdoif]

They're connected to the Prime via the Ethereal, and don't touch the Astral at all.As of when?

The Plane of Shadow and the Ethereal Plane are coexistent with the Material Plane. All planes, including the Plane of Shadow and the Ethereal Plane, are coexistent with the Astral Plane, which envelops the whole cosmology like a cloud.

The six Inner Planes surround the Material Plane. They are separate from the Material Plane and from each other (they do not have connections between them). They are each coexistent with the Astral Plane. Each of the Inner Planes has the appropriate elemental or energy trait.

[blackwindbears]

As of when?


In the original manual of the planes I believe. I think that's where most planescape resources have them as well. 3rd edition substantially simplified that cosmology, but the original is more internally consistent, and probably more consistent with most D&D stuff.

[Yuki Akuma]

As of when?


Oh yeah they changed that in 3e didn't they.

Oh, well. The fact remains that the Inner Planes are made of matter, not thought.

[jwhouk]

The Elemental Planes are all laid out according to a table, of course.

[Jasdoif]

The fact remains that the Inner Planes are made of matter, not thought....and it just occurred to me that "made of thought" would go a long way towards explaining why "divinely morphic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#divinelyMorphic)" is a thing.

[Millstone85]

Oh yeah they changed that in 3e didn't they.And changed it back in 5e.

But this is a 3e comic, right?

[KorvinStarmast]

IRL, my favorite elemental plane is the airplane.

*ducks*

[Gift Jeraff]

Going by the planar orrery seen in SSD&T (during the Hamlet StickTale) and Thor's lines in strip #1138, I think OOTS is using the AD&D model of the Astral Plane being the void between the Outer Planes and not the entire multiverse.

[martianmister]

IRL, my favorite elemental plane is the airplane.

*ducks*

http://www.davidmcelroy.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Gun-pointed-at-you.jpg

[Jaros]

IRL, my favorite elemental plane is the airplane.

*ducks*

Personally, I'm partial to the semi-elemental plane of ranch dressing.

[Millstone85]

Going by the planar orrery seen in SSD&T (during the Hamlet StickTale) and Thor's lines in strip #1138, I think OOTS is using the AD&D model of the Astral Plane being the void between the Outer Planes and not the entire multiverse.Good choice, then. I like the Astral tying the Outer Planes in this psychic theme, and the contrast with the Ethereal and the Inner Planes as building blocks.

[hamishspence]

Going by the planar orrery seen in SSD&T (during the Hamlet StickTale) and Thor's lines in strip #1138, I think OOTS is using the AD&D model of the Astral Plane being the void between the Outer Planes and not the entire multiverse.

The narration mentions only 16 Outer Planes when there are actually 17 - though the orrery does show The Outlands.


However, I don't think it can be taken as saying that the Astral Plane is not connected to the inner planes.

The model has what looks like the astral plane, connected to 2 hubs.

Hub A is connected to the Material Plane and all the Inner Planes.

Hub B is connected to the Outer Planes.

[Darth Tom]

And changed it back in 5e.

But this is a 3e comic, right?

It's more D&D-like than any particular edition. Rich dialled back the specific jokes and references because a) a lot of the readers play different things and b) it's unnecessarily restrictive for what quickly became a story- and character- focused webcomic.

[Goblin_Priest]

It's more D&D-like than any particular edition. Rich dialled back the specific jokes and references because a) a lot of the readers play different things and b) it's unnecessarily restrictive for what quickly became a story- and character- focused webcomic.

It's still a 3.5 comic, despite veering a little away from nerdy mechanics jokes.

[Kish]

It's more D&D-like than any particular edition. Rich dialled back the specific jokes and references because a) a lot of the readers play different things and b) it's unnecessarily restrictive for what quickly became a story- and character- focused webcomic.
Ehhhh...when something's based on any D&D rules rather than being completely handwaved, it's 3.5 over 99% of the time.

[Gift Jeraff]

The use of modrons as the exemplary Lawful race and no mention of formians or inevitables is another point in favor of 2E cosmology being in play.


The narration mentions only 16 Outer Planes when there are actually 17 - though the orrery does show The Outlands.

I assumed the Outlands to be the central axis of reality mentioned.

[hamishspence]

While 3.0 downplayed modrons, they still got a mention (in the 3.0 web enhancement).

I think it's likely that when The Giant began writing OOTS, he had the 3.5 MM, DMG, and PHB to hand - with the 3.5 DMG coming with the Great Wheel cosmology outlined.

[xroads]

Ancient Greeks believed that all matter was made of the four elements. So I can very easily see the elemental planes having formed because of thought. And we know that they do have their own worshippers (ex. Creed of Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html)), so they would have spirits to help form the plane.

But having said that, I believe the previous posters are correct. The elemental planes aren't considered outer planes. So they are probably not formed of thoughts.

[hamishspence]

Their lack of appropriate Morphic traits (the Outer Planes are generally Divinely Morphic, Limbo is Highly Morphic) would support that.

Any connection to the Astral Plane, would be on the same grounds as the Material Plane being connected - elementals think, so their thoughts link to the Astral Plane.

[Envyus]

The narration mentions only 16 Outer Planes when there are actually 17 - though the orrery does show The Outlands.



What only mentions only 16?

[Gift Jeraff]

What only mentions only 16?

OOTS version of Hamlet from Snips, Snails, & Dragon Tales (interrupting the famous soliloquy):

:vaarsuvius: Sixteen unique planes of existence form a great wheel around the central axis of reality. For example, this plane here is formed from massive interlocking metal gears, while its opposite number is a swirling rainbow soup. Between them is a silvery void of infinite space.
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/CeliaPonytail_zpsbmoz9mgz.png Don't forget the elemental planes, too, professor.
:vaarsuvius: True, true. Further, as far as I know, the gods have put no prohibition on self-slaughter. If one wished, I see no reason why one could not simply kill oneself and deliver one's soul as a ready soldier for one's respective alignment.
:roy: Soldier..? What do you--
:vaarsuvius: Oh yes. As it transpires, the afterlife is the scene of millenia-old conflicts in which angels, demons, devils, magic robots, and giant anthropomorphized frogs do battle to gain control of your dead spirit.

[Kish]

I suspect Vaarsuvius is referring to the Outlands as "the central axis of reality." A perspective that overprivileges the True Neutral plane to the point where only a True Neutral egomaniac would say it--but that's who's talking.

[Devils_Advocate]

Regardless, the Outlands isn't (aren't?) one of the links in the ring formed by the other Outer Planes. (Indeed, looking at just those 17 planes, it sure looks the ones making up the circle are the "outer" ones; the other is in the center!)

I think that Planescape said that the elements from the Inner Planes form the Prime Material Plane, and beliefs from the Material Plane form the Outer Planes. If anything, the Elemental Planes are more similar to the Prime Material Plane than to the Outer Planes, with the Elemental Planes and the Prime Material Plane both being planes of substance.

The way that Shojo described the gods trapping the Snarl made it sound a lot like the newly created world is sandwiched between two neighboring planes of existence. Probably the previous world used the old model, but they had to paste the Ethereal and Shadow Planes on opposite sides of the Material to keep the Snarl in, thereby creating the new 3E cosmology. That's my theory.

[woweedd]

I suspect Vaarsuvius is referring to the Outlands as "the central axis of reality." A perspective that overprivileges the True Neutral plane to the point where only a True Neutral egomaniac would say it--but that's who's talking.
I mean, if we're using Planescape cosmology, it kinda is. Specifically, the center of the multiverse is Sigil, The City Of A Thousand Doors, home to portals that lead everywhere in the universe, which sits on top of an infinitely tall spire at the center of The Outlands, ruled over by The Lady Of Pain, a being of such immense power that she singlehandedly defends the city from all divine interference just by existing. Day-to-day-life is dominating by gangs of bickering philosophers, who hope to use Sigil's position at the center of The Multiverse to get their ideas more influence, as The Outer Planes, including Sigil, are shaped by belief. It is possible to kill someone in Sigil by convincing them that they do not exist. Also, everyone's Cockney, for some reason.

[Rotipher]

Although it seems unlikely that thoughts would dominate the Inner Planes - those are oriented towards matter and energy, not mental abstracts - there might still be parallels between them and how the Outer Planes are explained in #1138. Specifically, just as there are a lot of thoughts that carry less weight than the fundamental concepts of alignment, yet might expand into mini-planes over time and be absorbed as new Outer Plane layers, so the Inner Planes might have swarms of "lesser elements" that drift near them. Which might occasionally congeal into Inner Demiplanes of their own, comprised of very specific chemicals or energy-forms, and just barely big enough to harbor a few of their own obscure elementals ... which would explain where Redcloak's been conjuring his Periodic Table elementals from.

[woweedd]

The funny thing about the Planescape books is, to the best of my recollection, they're all written from the perspective of people from Sigil. Cagers love them selves some themselves.

You could also argue that that Sigil, despite being visible from the Outlands, isn't really there. At the base of the Spire, magic doesn't work. Neither do psionics, and gods can't touch you. None of those are true in Sigil (expect the god thing, and even then, the Portal God and Vecna gave it a run for its money; in any case, the reason gods can't touch you is different). You need a portal to get to Sigil from the Outlands (or vice versa). The Lady's Mazes exist in the Ethereal Plane, which is about as from the Outlands as you could get. For all practical purposes Sigil is an independent demiplane with weird connections and a pretty view (although looking over the edge is no recommended).

An argument could be made for any particular point to be the center of the multiverse. Sigil is ostensibly central because its connected to everywhere - but connections are unreliable, especially after the Faction War, and that doesn't really say anything about other kinds of centrality. Powers would probably point to the Prime as the center (mind the Phlogiston!), its certainly the center of their concern. An Efreet Emir would point to Brass as the center. A poor soul trapped in the Demiplane of Dread, if they had managed to gather any information about the wider universe, would, well, they'd actually be more likely to say they live in the bottom of the multiverse.

Nevertheless, centrality is a measure of perspective, and to accept a Cagers view of centrality uncritically seems to me to miss the point of a world* where belief is the central concern of every major faction and power.

* Doesn't apply as much to the Inner Planes, which really got shafted in Planescape.
All fair points. Alos, i'll note: I kind assumed the magic-nullifying field is surrounding the base of the spire. Why doesn't it hit Sigil? SImple: Sigil is several thousand feet above.

[Yuki Akuma]

All fair points. Alos, i'll note: I kind assumed the magic-nullifying field is surrounding the base of the spire. Why doesn't it hit Sigil? SImple: Sigil is several thousand feet above.

The dead magic zone surrounding the Spire goes all the way up. If you use magic to try to fly to Sigil, you'll fall before you reach it.

[factotum]

All fair points. Alos, i'll note: I kind assumed the magic-nullifying field is surrounding the base of the spire. Why doesn't it hit Sigil? SImple: Sigil is several thousand feet above.

It's worth noting that the centre of the Outlands (then called the Concordant Opposition) in pre-Planescape times was supposed to be a place no-one, not even deities, could approach--even chemical reactions stopped working there. They seem to have carried that concept over into Planescape, just adding the Spire and Sigil, with the latter obviously being an exception to the "nothing works" rule.

[woweedd]

It's worth noting that the centre of the Outlands (then called the Concordant Opposition) in pre-Planescape times was supposed to be a place no-one, not even deities, could approach--even chemical reactions stopped working there. They seem to have carried that concept over into Planescape, just adding the Spire and Sigil, with the latter obviously being an exception to the "nothing works" rule.
I think it's mentioned that mainly just magic fails, as you get closer, with basic chemical reactions only failing once you're almost right next to the thing. Epic-level spells fail 1000 miles out, 9th level spells 900 miles out, ETC. In fact, I remember one thing mentioning that 100 miles out, where even first-level spells fail, is a popular meting ground for negotiations between opposing sides, as the failure of all magic, even divine magic, means that the negotiations dissolving into violence is almost impossible.

[Chronos]

Putting Concordant Opposition into the center runs into the problem that the Material Planes are also in the center. My personal explanation is that Concordant Opposition is actually the very edge of the Multiverse, with the Spire of Sigil being, not the axle of reality, but its outer boundary. And yes, that means that It's Bigger On The Inside: So what?

Meanwhile, the Material Planes (there are a lot of them) are only approximately in the center, with local conditions causing ripples in them relative to the nine-dimensional Astral they're embedded into: A place on a particular Material Plane where a lot of good deeds are done would be a little bit closer to the Upper planes, a place where there's been a lot of death is a little closer to the Negative Energy Plane, a place that's very hot is a little closer to the Plane of Fire, and so on. Even with all of the thousands or millions of different material planes all in the center, they only collide when corresponding points of two of them are in exactly the same place, and with six extra dimensions to wiggle around in, that's almost impossible unless someone very carefully engineered such a collision.

[factotum]

Putting Concordant Opposition into the center runs into the problem that the Material Planes are also in the center.

It doesn't really work that way? The Outer Planes, including the Concordant Opposition/Outlands, are separate from the Inner Planes and only connected to them via the Astral. It's also a bit Prime-centric of you to assume that the Prime Material Plane is in the middle of everything, but that's OK, you live there and so you obviously tend to think of it as more important in planar affairs than it actually is. :smallsmile:

[Yuki Akuma]

The Great Wheel is actually a pyramid. The Outlands are at the base while the Material Plane and the Inner Planes are at the tip.

Or possibly the other way around I forget.

[Millstone85]

The Great Wheel is actually a pyramid.That would certainly be more intuitive than...http://gobbi.free.fr/planescape/img/OuterPlanes.gifhttp://gobbi.free.fr/planescape/img/InnerPlanes.gifhttp://gobbi.free.fr/planescape/img/PrimeMaterialPlane.gif

[Chronos]

Prime-centric? I never even used the word Prime; I just referred to material planes, plural. Frankly, I don't think that there even is a single material plane that's the Prime one; that's just what mortals (from any of the material planes) use to refer to whichever one they happen to be from (i.e., if a person from, say, Eberron ever somehow found themself in Faerun, they might talk about trying to get "back to the Prime Material Plane").

[Yuki Akuma]

The Prime Material Plane is the only Material Plane.

It's an infinite sea of Phlogiston in which countless Crystal Spheres float, within which exist suns and worlds.

Edit: Also Eberron exists outside of the Great Wheel cosmology entirely. It's its own thing.

[Millstone85]

The Prime Material Plane is the only Material Plane.Why, then, is it called the Prime? That seems to imply secondary material planes.

Interestingly, 5e dropped that appellation. It is now just the Material Plane.


It's an infinite sea of Phlogiston in which countless Crystal Spheres float, within which exist suns and worlds.Indeed, I like to think of it as the Plane of Phlogiston.


Also Eberron exists outside of the Great Wheel cosmology entirely. It's its own thing.With the coming of Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron for 5e, it seems that they are going to describe the Orrery as a bunch of demiplanes that shield Shardspace from regular planar influences. Or something like that.

[factotum]

Why, then, is it called the Prime? That seems to imply secondary material planes.

At the time, what are now known as the Positive and Negative *energy* planes were called the Positive and Negative *Material* planes, so the other one had to be called Prime to differentiate it. Once they renamed those planes I guess they decided they could safely drop the Prime, but to old gits like me it'll always be the Prime Material Plane, whatever they choose to rename it to! :smallsmile:

[SirKazum]

At the time, what are now known as the Positive and Negative *energy* planes were called the Positive and Negative *Material* planes, so the other one had to be called Prime to differentiate it. Once they renamed those planes I guess they decided they could safely drop the Prime, but to old gits like me it'll always be the Prime Material Plane, whatever they choose to rename it to! :smallsmile:

I seem to distinctly remember 2E Planescape (my favorite setting :smalltongue: ) using the nomenclature "Prime Material Plane", "Positive Energy Plane" and "Negative Energy Plane". Of course, that could still be a holdover from the previous situation you described, just saying it's an official holdover (at least in 2E).

[factotum]

I seem to distinctly remember 2E Planescape (my favorite setting :smalltongue: ) using the nomenclature "Prime Material Plane", "Positive Energy Plane" and "Negative Energy Plane". Of course, that could still be a holdover from the previous situation you described, just saying it's an official holdover (at least in 2E).

They called them Material in 1st edition, I believe.