Thog's alignment?

[Banjulhu]

Thog is always presented as a baddie, due to being in the linear guild. But he really seems to care for puppies, and i dont think that's that evil. I mean, when he kidnaps the blacksmith, he treats him really well for what a human(or dwarf?) that is being treated like a dog. He even felt sad for leaving him.

However, Thog also tends to kill without mercy, and there's only a thin barrier of ice cream between him and a boredom-driven rampage.

So i was wondering whether Thog is really EVIL. He looks like more Chaotic Neutral to me. He might just be so stupid that he doesnt realize what he's doing. Or that he thinks that everything that Nale tells him to do is a good thing, which actually would make him Lawful Neutral/Evil. A good example in the way little children can easily be influenced to do something when they're taught that it's a good thing.

[Kaelaroth]

Didn't we have this recently? Meh - I'll look past it.

I like puppies too. Yet I am filled with a passionate hatred for most humans on this pathetic and puny Earth. Does the puppy thing redeem me? Probably not.

Thog is still evil in my opinion. His id rules over his super-ego, and though he is very stupid, he is still smart enough to understand right and wrong. As I think he must have a wisdom score?

He is Chaotic Evil.

:thog: Thog Like Puppies!

[Emperor Demonking]

Chaotic evil all the way.

[Green Bean]

I'd still say evil. He has done quite a few evil acts, and I have yet to see him perform any good actions. Liking puppies doesn't balance out all those people the LG murdered in Cliffport. And if he has an INT greater than 2, then he's capable of making moral decisions.

And the child metaphor doesn't really work because of the scale of what happened. If some older kids convinced a younger kid to steal some candy, then it isn't alignment shaking. If those older kids convince the younger one to brutally murder someone, then yes, the little kid is evil.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'm tempted to go with chaotic neutral (I remember 1 person mentioning on a "who is the most evil" thread about how Thog didn't actually do anything evil during his subplt with Elan, which suggests that he just goes along with whatever the prson who is "baby-sitting" him wants to do. By the way Kaelaroth, I'd class hating most humans as being sensible rather then having anything to do with alignment considering what a lot of humans are like.

[TheAlmightyOne]

Hes the opposite to Roy. Roy is self proclaimed lawful good meaning Thog must be chaotic evil. Likewise Nale said he was lawful evil while we know (or at least strongly guess) that Elan is chaotic good.

[Kaelaroth]

By the way Kaelaroth, I'd class hating most humans as being sensible rather then having anything to do with alignment considering what a lot of humans are like.

You have a point.

[NerfTW]

Thog commited massacres 15 times in Cliffport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0339.html), each time killing multiple people. He talks about "boredom driven rampage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html)", he murdered the Earth guardian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html) in Dorukon's dungeon, and he couldn't touch the rune to activate it, meaning he must have been evil. Plus, the blacksmith Thog tied up had blood on him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), suggesting Thog was beating him.

But of course, nobody evil can like puppies!

On the intelligence side, no, he's still evil if he goes along with what other people are doing. If you drive the getaway car because you're bored, you still helped in the crime. Just because he didn't do anything evil when with Elan doesn't mean he's neutral. He didn't do anything good while with Elan either. In fact, he attacked Haley with a door for no reason (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html) in that storyline.

[Banjulhu]

But if he's CE, shouldnt that make him more like Belkar? Belkar is definetely CE, and he just kills because he likes killing. Thog indeed only seems to do whatever people tell him to do. If it's Nale or Sabine, he'll kill. But if it's Elan, he'll stuff giant wooden alpaca's with food. I see him more like a really stupid Neutral person then an Evil person.

[HomerHT]

Exhibit D (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html)

Thog is not only really evil, he ENJOYS it. Quite a bit, it looks like.


But if he's CE, shouldnt that make him more like Belkar? Belkar is definetely CE, and he just kills because he likes killing. Thog indeed only seems to do whatever people tell him to do. If it's Nale or Sabine, he'll kill. But if it's Elan, he'll stuff giant wooden alpaca's with food. I see him more like a really stupid Neutral person then an Evil person.

Thog didn't kill Elan for the same reason Belkar doesn't kill Elan. Elan's charisma makes him likeable, and Thog even admires him.

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point about the rune (I'd forgotten about that), and chaotic evil would make him the opposite to Roy (admittedly, were all of the Linear Guild members exact opposites alignment-wise: Leeky Windstaff seemed to be Neutral Evil while Durkon is assumedto be either Lawful neutral or Lawful Good (I'm tempted to go with the latter), Hilgya Firehelm is probably Chaotic Neutral (or possibly Chaotic Good) and we don't know Pompey or Zz'dtri's exact alignments (Vaarsuvius is neutral on the ethics scale if the "arrogant neutral" alignment from the board game is half accurate) so we can' be sure about if they are exact opposites regarding alignment. Yikyik appeared to have a similar alignment to Belkar, while Yokyok seemed to be at least Lawful Neutral.

[Bayar]

Hmm...most likely chaotic neutral.I like to see a good horror movie with psichotic killers (i laugh at some), but that does not mean that I am one.And as for the blood on the dwarf blacksmith, when you are tied up and restricted of bathing and such things, you tend to have blood or dirt on you.Look on survival shows on Discovery....It always happens.And as for the earth guardian, he was programed to kill any monster he found in his path...

[boomwolf]

i am not really sure thog has got the MIND to have an alignment.
he can't point out good and evil, he doesn't know law and chaos.
he is unaware of the results of his actions, if he is even aware there are results.
he is pretty much mindless. doing what others tell him.

[Banjulhu]

But what about?:

#388,first panel: What kind of evil person feels sorry for losing an axe?

#392,third panel: What kind of evil person pays a lot of time looking at a four-leave clover? And don't tell me Elan's Charisma had anything to do with that.

#398,last panels: Thog wants to join a group hug with his enemies. How evil is that?

You could state that he's acting like that due to Elan's abscense...but I still think Thog is more Neutral than he's Evil. Although there are indeed some evil aspects to him.

[Morty]

#388,first panel: What kind of evil person feels sorry for losing an axe?

Someone who was fond of his weapon. Evil =/= heartless psychopath.


#392,third panel: What kind of evil person pays a lot of time looking at a four-leave clover? And don't tell me Elan's Charisma had anything to do with that.

See above. He just likes four-leafed clover.


#398,last panels: Thog wants to join a group hug with his enemies. How evil is that?

He's childish and quite stupid and he likes group hugs. That's all, especially considering the fact he beat up Haley with door moment ago.


You could state that he's acting like that due to Elan's abscense...but I still think Thog is more Neutral than he's Evil. Although there are indeed some evil aspects to him.

No. There are just non-evil traits in his Chaotic Evil behavior, that's all.

[Kai Maera]

I like the idea of your alignment being a result of what you do.
Thog is chaotic evil, though he is indeed too stupid to realize that he is being evil. Due to the fact that Thog is so easily manipulated, though, it can be argued that he could easily become chaotic good if he were to, say, join up with the Order of the Stick. It's just that he's evil now.

Like Miko was evil. That's right, I said it!

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding hitting Hayley with a door, he still classed her as an enermy from the other occasions when the LG and OotS fought each other, so he probably still classed her as an anermy here unless he assumed that Nale wanted him to attack Haley (he would probably go along with what Nale wants over what Elan wants due to knowing Nale for longer).

[Morty]

I like the idea of your alignment being a result of what you do.


Is there any other definition of alignment?

[Green Bean]

But if he's CE, shouldnt that make him more like Belkar? Belkar is definetely CE, and he just kills because he likes killing. Thog indeed only seems to do whatever people tell him to do. If it's Nale or Sabine, he'll kill. But if it's Elan, he'll stuff giant wooden alpaca's with food. I see him more like a really stupid Neutral person then an Evil person.

Roy, Miko, and Hinjo are all LG. Elan and Haley are both CG. Redcloak and Nale are both LE. Sharing an alignment doesn't mean sharing a personality.

[Banjulhu]

Roy, Miko, and Hinjo are all LG. Elan and Haley are both CG. Redcloak and Nale are both LE. Sharing an alignment doesn't mean sharing a personality.

But the difference is between Thog and Belkar is far bigger than that between Haley and Elan or Roy and Hinjo. Xykon is CE too, and he has a lot more in common with Belkar than with Thog. Maybe Thog is just a victim of his enviroment.

[Kurald Galain]

Roy is LG. Miko is LG. Yet there's a strong lack of similarity between the two of them. Hence, Thog can be CE without needing to resemble Belkar.

Thog probably thinks he's LG, or perhaps FT. He's not that bright, after all.

[dakiwiboid]

Thog probably thinks he's LG, or perhaps FT. He's not that bright, after all.

Does Thog even think about his alignment? Would it matter much to him? I suspect that Thog is very reactive, not contemplative. It's as if he was just wound up as a baby and set out on his path of destruction, puppy-seeking, and ice cream-eating, with brief side trips to improve his vocabulary.

[Banjulhu]

Roy is LG. Miko is LG. Yet there's a strong lack of similarity between the two of them. Hence, Thog can be CE without needing to resemble Belkar.


Miko was..Extreme
She's not such a good example, because she's crazy. Miko and Thog are probably the ones who differ the most in personality from the rest of the cast with the same alignment. Miko was crazy. Thog is stupid.

[Emperor Ing]

This thread is definitely a way to quell someone's insanity from the OOTS withdrawal.

I think Thog, likely like Belkar, is Chaotic Evil.

Now find yourself a new webcomic people! :smallannoyed:

[NerfTW]

Hmm...most likely chaotic neutral.I like to see a good horror movie with psichotic killers (i laugh at some), but that does not mean that I am one.And as for the blood on the dwarf blacksmith, when you are tied up and restricted of bathing and such things, you tend to have blood or dirt on you.Look on survival shows on Discovery....It always happens.And as for the earth guardian, he was programed to kill any monster he found in his path...

How does that even work?

Thog PARTICIPATED in the murders. A better example would be if you were a serial killer.

Further, how on earth can you possibly think a beaten and tied up man is being treated nicely?

You're not even trying, you're just arguing for the sake of being contrary.

[Yuki Akuma]

Alignment is certainly a very basic indication of very basic personality traits.

Good people are prone to bouts of selflessness. Evil people are prone to bouts of selfishness. Good people feel guilt. Evil people do, too, but a lot less often.

However, mental ability scores, upbringing, environment and friends also have a much large bearing on personality. In fact, the last three are likely to alter alignment in the first place!

Thog is Chaotic Evil. It may be because he's too stupid to realise people don't like being hurt, or because he was raised by his brutal orc parent, or because he hangs out with Nale and Sabine. Doesn't matter. He's still Chaotic Evil.

That doesn't mean he can't be redeemed, although it would be an uphill struggle.

[boomwolf]

Is there any other definition of alignment?

yes, some people see alignment as the sum of what the person believes in.
thats why i point out, that thog might not even HAVE and alignment. he believes EVERYONE.

[Querzis]

Roy, Miko, and Hinjo are all LG. Elan and Haley are both CG. Redcloak and Nale are both LE. Sharing an alignment doesn't mean sharing a personality.

Sorry but I would argue Miko definitly became at least LN after the Shojo episode...hell she was always much more LN then anything else, maybe she did some good act before her encounter with the order but in the comic I saw her do no good act (even helping the dirt farmer were, as she said herself, because it was her duty) and two evil act (shojo and Hinjo) so she definitly aint LG anymore.

Anyway, I'm tired of you saying that poor Thog behavior is because of Nale influence. Nale fear Thog and Thog actually goes too far for him sometimes!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html

This is the same things as Belkar, people like Thog so they dont want the dumb half-orc who like puppies to be evil. Hell look how he threat his puppy!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html

Thog is not only evil but he is even more then Nale! Thog kill just for fun or out of boredom and hes so egoist that he doesnt care at all about how many people get hurt or killed as long as its not one of his friend! And dont come telling me «he dont know what hes doing», if he has enough int to talk, he has enough int to do moral decisions. Comparing him to a child really wont help you by the way since child cruelty knows no bound and since they just fear punishment. The only way to make a child understand something is wrong is by punishing him if he does it. An evil child would do much more damage then an evil adult if there is no one to stop him.

Just think about Lenny from mice and mens, is he as stupid as Thog? Probably. Is he as evil as Thog? Hell no, Lenny never wanted to hurt anyone and really had a conscience, its not just his fear of being punished that made him act like that, he could tell he did something wrong! Being stupid is not an excuse for being evil!

[Green Bean]

Sorry but I would argue Miko definitly became at least LN after the Shojo episode...hell she was always much more LN then anything else, maybe she did some good act before her encounter with the order but in the comic I saw her do no good act (even helping the dirt farmer were, as she said herself, because it was her duty) and two evil act (shojo and Hinjo) so she definitly aint LG anymore.


I meant "pre-Fall Miko". I'm pretty sure we can all agree she was LG then? The point I was trying to make was that three examples of LG are wildly different in personality, loyalty, and action. Pre-fall Miko and Roy are further apart then Belkar and thog. Heck, the biggest difference is that thog listens to what his leader says.

[Elfanatic]

Thog is simply Chaotic Evil.

OotS 258 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html)

Just look at his smile people! No one who has a record of Celine Dion laying can be a good person!

:smalltongue:

[Kai Maera]

Is there any other definition of alignment?

Well apparently there is, since this is a debate between if Thog is evil or neutral due to his inability to grasp what he does. Intent versus action.

Also, if alignment was only what you did then no one would have been against calling Miko evil after she befriended villains, saved Xykon, killed Shojo, resisted arrest, and otherwise made a mess of herself.

[Scorpina]

Chaotic Stupid, but for the purposes of, y'know, actual in-game alignments, Chaotic Evil. He cheerfully corpses folk up, hangs around with a demon etc etc... plus Nale's put a lot of effort into this whole 'evil opposite' thing; evil, not neutral.

[mockingbyrd7]

I think that he is Chaotic Evil but easily influenced by others, and not as evil as Belkar or Xykon. Yes, he has committed murder and gone on dozens of rampages against innocents and is undoubtedly evil, but part of this is simply because he barely understands what he's doing. He likes to smash, but he doesn't realize that he is stripping countless people of their lives, etc etc. So he's evil but doesn't understand evil, and quite frankly he probably doesn't care.

Also, just because someone does something good or likes puppies doesn't mean they aren't evil. Just look at Redcloak, he's evil for a noble cause and is fighting for what he thinks is right, which is evil. It's confusing, and the logic of many evil people is twisted, but being evil doesn't mean being 100% evil, nor does it mean being a completely heartless bastard and the epitome of filth and sin. (Belkar and Xykon ARE 100% evil, but that doesn't mean all evil characters are.)

[The Extinguisher]

But if he's CE, shouldnt that make him more like Belkar? Belkar is definetely CE, and he just kills because he likes killing. Thog indeed only seems to do whatever people tell him to do. If it's Nale or Sabine, he'll kill. But if it's Elan, he'll stuff giant wooden alpaca's with food. I see him more like a really stupid Neutral person then an Evil person.

There are a vast amounts of ways to play an alignment. Vast.

[Yuki Akuma]

There are a vast amounts of ways to play an alignment. Vast.

VAST!

Stupid character limit.

[....]

I don't get why people are so quick to defend Thog's being evil because (in simplified terms) his mommy and daddy didn't hug him enough.

Nale was raised by a power-crazed evil warlord. He grew up in a battlefield watching lord-knows-what attrocities performed by his father.

Sabine was raised in Hell (okay, the Abyss, same thing only less orderly) can we really blame her for being evil? Hell, most of the time she just wants to make sure she and Nale stay together.

While we're at it, lets look the other way around:

Durkon is only good because he was raised by firm but fair and apparently very religious dwarves who worshipped a good deity that promoted kindness and lawfulness.

Roy was raised by a family who loved him (even if his father didn't show it) and was taught how their family sword as a heirloom of heroes of good.

My point is that arguing how Thog had such a crappy childhood is a pretty lame excuse. So he had a bad upbringing. Boo-hoo. He's evil. He enjoys causing pain and death. He does it for fun. As cute and funny as he is, Thog could gut you and laugh as he wrapped your entrails around his head as a wig if he met you and didn't have any icecream.

[Porthos]

Well, it has been a month or so since the last attempt to apologize for Thog's behavior debate about Thog's alignment, so I guess it was about time a new one started. :smalltongue:

Look, Thog is textbook Chaotic Evil. Yes he likes "puppies". Unfortunately his definition of "puppies" and most normal peoples definition is slightly different. :smallwink: With that one objection out of the way, let's look at the facts:

He enjoys murder. Not just killing, but murder.
He recognizes that what he is doing is wrong, but he does it anyway.
He willingly hangs out with evil people because doing so lets him go on rampages.
He sees nothing wrong with hanging out with Incarnations of Pure Evil.

And I could go on and on. :smallsmile:

It seems to me that the biggest complaint people have with Thog being Evil (besides the fact that they like him, and they don't want to admit to finding an Evil Person funny in a Comic Strip) is that he is "childlike".

To which I say: So Frigging What. If you look at the alignment descriptions, it doesn't say "Alignments only apply to people with an INT score higher than 7". In fact, it says just the opposite (with 2 being the cutoff, IIRC). Is Thog Self Aware? Yes. Is Thog capable from determining Right from Wrong? Yes. Is Thog responsible for his actions? Yes. Can Thog control his own behavior? Yes.

Since the answer to all of those questions is an undoubted YES, then alignment is applicable to Thog. And Chaotic (acting on a moments whim) and Evil (mass murder, destruction, mayhem, etc) certainly apply to both his intents and actions. For Thog to be Chaotic Neutral he would have do roughly an equal amount of Good acts to counterbalance the Evil ones he does. And you know what? I can't think of too many good acts he's performed. Oh sure, he's performed plenty of acts that were in his self-interest. And he's helped out his friends (to a limited degree at times). But "good"? Sorry, not from what I've seen.

Unfortunately, we are back to the "Alignment Equals Straitjacket" idea again. I don't know how many times this has to be said, but here's one more time: Alignments are Guidelines, not Iron Cast Rules. Just as there is a world of difference between the Lawful Good of Roy, Hinjo, Eugene, and Miko; so to is there a world of difference between the Chaotic Evil of Xykon, Belkar, and Thog.

Or to put it another way: Evil people can indeed have friends.
Evil people can sacrifice things to help their friends.
Evil people can put themselves in harms way to help out friends.
Evil people can help out their friends simply because they are their friends.
Evil people can build lasting relationships with other people.

An excellent look at motivations of "evil" people (and by extension their alignments) can be found on this very site: here (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/rTKEivnsYuZrh94H1Sn.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html)

Yes the Mustache-Twirling Anti-Social I-Hate-Everyone Baddie can be CE. But so to can the I-Will-Sacrifice-The-World-To-Save-My-True-Love Baddie. So any attempt to say that Thog isn't CE simply because he hasn't betrayed his friends doesn't wash with me, I'm afraid. :smallsmile:

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point about alignment applying to everyone with an intelligence of 3 or higher. Is there any evidence that Thog was brought up by abusive parents at all, though? Also, how does using a Celene Dion CD as a torture instrument make you evil?

[BRC]

Thog is obviously CP, that is, Chaotic Puppy's.

[Kai Maera]

That is a good point about alignment applying to everyone with an intelligence of 3 or higher. Is there any evidence that Thog was brought up by abusive parents at all, though? Also, how does using a Celene Dion CD as a torture instrument make you evil?

How doesn't using Celine Dion as a torture instrunment make you evil?
It's both tortue and horrible.

[Tempest Fennac]

I like a lot of Dion's music (I could understand it it if was, for example, a Tight Fit, Rhianna or Kate Nash CD).

[Querzis]

I like a lot of Dion's music (I could understand it it if was, for example, a Tight Fit, Rhianna or Kate Nash CD).

Well everyone has his taste, pretty much any music, no matter how much you like it, could be used as a torture instrument for someone else. But Celine Dion is succesfull mainly with people around forty or above while most of the people around Thog, Nale and Elan age hate her so its logical for them to believe its a very good torture instrument.

[Kaelaroth]

I like a lot of Dion's music (I could understand it it if was, for example, a Tight Fit, Rhianna or Kate Nash CD).

You evil...!

Kate Nash rules forever! All praise her biscuit and flower filled reign!

Meanwhile, I reiterate. Killing people is evil. Many good aligned people are excused from it - as it is for the Greater Good.

Thog however, kills for kicks.

[Yuki Akuma]

You evil...!

Kate Nash rules forever! All praise her biscuit and flower filled reign!

Meanwhile, I reiterate. Killing people is evil. Many good aligned people are excused from it - as it is for the Greater Good.

Thog however, kills for kicks.

Murder is evil. Killing in self-defense is decidedly neutral. Killing in defense of another is probably neutral, as well.

"Greater Good" is a fallacy and good characters really shouldn't be using it. Evil performed for the "Greater Good" is still evil. :smalltongue:

[Tempest Fennac]

Wouldn't killing someone in the defence of someone who wasn't a friend or family member class as good rather then neutral assumng that the person who is being attacked is defenceless and they were being attacked for no reason?

[Morty]

Wouldn't killing someone in the defence of someone who wasn't a friend or family member class as good rather then neutral assumng that the person who is being attacked is defenceless and they were being attacked for no reason?

No. It would just make the kill non-evil. Now, if you just disarmed the would-be killer in defence of someone you don't know, that would be good act.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for telling me. would this also be the case if killing them would prevent futher loss of life? (Eg: killing the Linear Guild after the first encounter would have saved literally hundreds of lives).

[Ecalsneerg]

Murder is evil. Killing in self-defense is decidedly neutral. Killing in defense of another is probably neutral, as well.

"Greater Good" is a fallacy and good characters really shouldn't be using it. Evil performed for the "Greater Good" is still evil. :smalltongue:

I once read a great description of the differences here.

What you've got is a guy with a spear, threatening to kill a child. Most people would save the kid. But what if the kid grew up to be a murdering tyrant? By committing a good act, you unleashed evil. However, if you let the kid die, would your soul cope? And if you see a child about to die, do you think "oh, could he grow up to kill people?". You don't.

Good acts can lead to evil, evil acts can lead to good. But why are we using the "greater good" in an argument about :thog: ?

Thog is evil, not because he kills people because he's told, but because he enjoys doing it.

[Morty]

Thanks for telling me. would this also be the case if killing them would prevent futher loss of life? (Eg: killing the Linear Guild after the first encounter would have saved literally hundreds of lives).

I'd also say that it'd still be neutral. Killing is evil, but if done in self-defense or to save someone's life can be non-evil, but not good.
Of course, that's just my view on how alignment works. Everyone has got their own.

[T.Titan]

I'm gonna go with Chaotic Neutral because he seem to also enjoy doing what Elan tells him... so he does evil things when he's with evil people and good things when he's with good people and enjoys them just the same.

[JasonDoomsblade]

I'm gonna go with Chaotic Neutral because he seem to also enjoy doing what Elan tells him... so he does evil things when he's with evil people and good things when he's with good people and enjoys them just the same.

That.......is actually a really good point.

[NerfTW]

Except that he didn't do anything good while with Elan. In fact, he wasn't given a chance to do anything evil either. His goal was to reach Nale. Going on a rampage would have actually hindered this goal, since it was a three day flight to Azure city, longer if he walked. He doesn't know how to fly an airship, so killing the crew of one and commandering it wouldn't have worked.

He only follows Elan because he needed help finding Nale. Remember that he beat Elan unconcious (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0351.html) only a few strips earlier.

[Dunamin]

I'm gonna go with Chaotic Neutral because he seem to also enjoy doing what Elan tells him... so he does evil things when he's with evil people and good things when he's with good people and enjoys them just the same.
That is not a good point.

Thog has not done a single good deed with Elan. Rather, the two have broken out of jail, broken into a store and stolen clothes - twice, then impersonated other people to smuggle themselves aboard an airship. Thog didn't give a damn that Elan's motive were to save Haley - he wanted to save his evil boss Nale who he believed to have gotten lost in a witch's forest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html).

Thog is Chaotic Evil for gleefully murdering innocents, and Porthos have already done a fine job of elaborately explaining why.

Christ people, he was arrested for murdering 417 people in Cliffport alone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html)!

[Jefepato]

I'm gonna go with Chaotic Neutral because he seem to also enjoy doing what Elan tells him... so he does evil things when he's with evil people and good things when he's with good people and enjoys them just the same.

Even if that were true, he'd still be evil. Alignments are not that forgiving.

[DSCrankshaw]

Roy, Miko, and Hinjo are all LG. Elan and Haley are both CG. Redcloak and Nale are both LE. Sharing an alignment doesn't mean sharing a personality.
I'm not going to get involved in the Thog debate. (Of course he's evil. But he's a FUN evil.)

I am going to say that Haley is probably Chaotic Neutral, not Good. At least when Nale accuses her of being evil, she says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html), "I'm Chaotic Good! Ish!" So even she's reluctant to call herself chaotic good. Which fits... she's a thief who's not above stealing from her teammates, or anyone else who happens to be around. She has been moving toward the Good side, largely thanks to Elan's influence, but I'm not sure she's there yet.

[Chronos]

Thog is Chaotic Evil, no question about it. He's more chaotic than he is evil, and he could probably be reformed by extended association with Not-Nale or other good people, but as he is right now? Evil. Just the fact that he could be reformed doesn't mean much until he actually is: Almost anyone could be reformed, some just more easily than others.

[mockingbyrd7]

Well, it has been a month or so since the last attempt to apologize for Thog's behavior debate about Thog's alignment, so I guess it was about time a new one started. :smalltongue:

Look, Thog is textbook Chaotic Evil. Yes he likes "puppies". Unfortunately his definition of "puppies" and most normal peoples definition is slightly different. :smallwink: With that one objection out of the way, let's look at the facts:

He enjoys murder. Not just killing, but murder.
He recognizes that what he is doing is wrong, but he does it anyway.
He willingly hangs out with evil people because doing so lets him go on rampages.
He sees nothing wrong with hanging out with Incarnations of Pure Evil.

And I could go on and on. :smallsmile:

It seems to me that the biggest complaint people have with Thog being Evil (besides the fact that they like him, and they don't want to admit to finding an Evil Person funny in a Comic Strip) is that he is "childlike".

To which I say: So Frigging What. If you look at the alignment descriptions, it doesn't say "Alignments only apply to people with an INT score higher than 7". In fact, it says just the opposite (with 2 being the cutoff, IIRC). Is Thog Self Aware? Yes. Is Thog capable from determining Right from Wrong? Yes. Is Thog responsible for his actions? Yes. Can Thog control his own behavior? Yes.

Since the answer to all of those questions is an undoubted YES, then alignment is applicable to Thog. And Chaotic (acting on a moments whim) and Evil (mass murder, destruction, mayhem, etc) certainly apply to both his intents and actions. For Thog to be Chaotic Neutral he would have do roughly an equal amount of Good acts to counterbalance the Evil ones he does. And you know what? I can't think of too many good acts he's performed. Oh sure, he's performed plenty of acts that were in his self-interest. And he's helped out his friends (to a limited degree at times). But "good"? Sorry, not from what I've seen.

Unfortunately, we are back to the "Alignment Equals Straitjacket" idea again. I don't know how many times this has to be said, but here's one more time: Alignments are Guidelines, not Iron Cast Rules. Just as there is a world of difference between the Lawful Good of Roy, Hinjo, Eugene, and Miko; so to is there a world of difference between the Chaotic Evil of Xykon, Belkar, and Thog.

Or to put it another way: Evil people can indeed have friends.
Evil people can sacrifice things to help their friends.
Evil people can put themselves in harms way to help out friends.
Evil people can help out their friends simply because they are their friends.
Evil people can build lasting relationships with other people.

An excellent look at motivations of "evil" people (and by extension their alignments) can be found on this very site: here (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/rTKEivnsYuZrh94H1Sn.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html)

Yes the Mustache-Twirling Anti-Social I-Hate-Everyone Baddie can be CE. But so to can the I-Will-Sacrifice-The-World-To-Save-My-True-Love Baddie. So any attempt to say that Thog isn't CE simply because he hasn't betrayed his friends doesn't wash with me, I'm afraid. :smallsmile:

I would vote for you. Porthos, you rule.

[kpenguin]

If it means anything, I think that Thog Chaotic Evil. The Evil is more disputable than the Chaotic.

[Xyk]

Yeah i'm going to agree with every single person on this thread and definetly chaotic evil. The only exception is that he is sometimes distracted. like that time he was leading roy when they first met and chopped the fairy to death without thinking.

[Dunamin]

Thog is Chaotic Evil, no question about it. He's more chaotic than he is evil, and he could probably be reformed by extended association with Not-Nale or other good people, but as he is right now? Evil.

If it means anything, I think that Thog Chaotic Evil. The Evil is more disputable than the Chaotic.

I suppose a D&D-esque way to express these views is that Thog might go to Pandemonium in his afterlife, rather than the Abyss in the standard D&D cosmology. The latter is pure CE, the former is halfway between CE and CN. Personally, I'm not sure which plane he would destined for, though his alignment is definitely CE, which leaves the standard options of Carceri, the Abyss, and Pandemonium.

[Maratanos]

Roy, Miko, and Hinjo are all LG. Elan and Haley are both CG. Redcloak and Nale are both LE. Sharing an alignment doesn't mean sharing a personality.

Redcloak is not Lawful. Probably not Chaotic, but not Lawful. Remember how disdainful he was of the Hobgoblin's lawful behavior? I'd say NE myself.

[Chronos]

Redcloak is definitely lawful. His goal is a goblin civilization, with goblins on an equal footing with all of the other races. His primary motivation is lawful; it's just his means of attaining his goals which make him evil. And if you want hard mechanical evidence, in Start of Darkness, he casts a spell which he could only have access to through the Law domain, and a cleric can't take an alignment domain which doesn't correspond to his alignment.

Oh, and since someone mentioned Hilgya before, she's chaotic neutral at best, and probably chaotic evil. A chaotic good character might run away from her arranged marriage, but she wouldn't attempt to murder her husband first.

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point about Hilgya trying to poison her husband (admittedly, I'd class it as neutral if he was actually abusing her, but I'm not even sure about how she got the idea that he was cruel, unless Drawfs see things differently to humans). I'd say she probably isn't evil due to how many cure spells she was using in 1 comic after Durkon was separated from the rst of the order unless she just stored a lot of them. Under traditional rules, she would need to be chaotic neutral at best to worship Loki, but the rules seem to be different in OotD considering how Durkon in Lawful Good or Neutral while Thor is Chaotic Good.

[A Rainy Knight]

For Thog, I would have to agree and say Chaotic Evil. Just listen to the saying, an action is worth a thousand words. Thog certainly has done a lot of evil things, even if the things he says don't seem that evil.

:thog: thog got to use a mop!

:thog: puppies bark and play with thog.

:thog: thog fears he may never again know the majesty of the gumdrop mountains.

This coming from a guy who kills on command without a second thought? :smalleek:
I guess there really are a lot of ways to play an alignment.

[explanetpluto]

How can you debate this? That's like trying to say that Belkar is good.

[Filatus]

I'm surprised the good/evil axis finds so much playtime here instead of the chaos/lawful axis.

Not sure if people noticed, but Thog has been surprisingly loyal to Nale throughout it all. So far he's seen in both Nale and Elan a figure of authority and he listens to what they say.

If Thog were Chaotic Evil, do you really think Nale could control the continued rampage? And don't say chocolate sprinkles.

[Nightgaunt]

No. It would just make the kill non-evil. Now, if you just disarmed the would-be killer in defence of someone you don't know, that would be good act.

While I agree with your assesment generally, I disagree with it in terms of Dungeons and Dragons.



Alhandra, a paladin who fights evil without mercy and protects the innocent without hesitation is lawful good.


If fighting evil without mercy is lawful good I think killing an evil attacker could be a good act in Dungeons and Dragons (unless of course you consider "without mercy" disarming and capturing). If the attacker is not evil it is anyone's guess (or really, DM fiat like all other alignment questions). As others have said, alignment is almost purely DM fiat.

[Edea]

We have Lawful Stupid, so why not just say Thog is "True Stupid?"

Honestly, he's supposed to be CE (as has been mentioned over and over, Roy's mirror opposite).

[The Extinguisher]

I'm surprised the good/evil axis finds so much playtime here instead of the chaos/lawful axis.

Not sure if people noticed, but Thog has been surprisingly loyal to Nale throughout it all. So far he's seen in both Nale and Elan a figure of authority and he listens to what they say.

If Thog were Chaotic Evil, do you really think Nale could control the continued rampage? And don't say chocolate sprinkles.

Because Barbarians can't be Lawful

[Querzis]

I'm surprised the good/evil axis finds so much playtime here instead of the chaos/lawful axis.

Not sure if people noticed, but Thog has been surprisingly loyal to Nale throughout it all. So far he's seen in both Nale and Elan a figure of authority and he listens to what they say.

If Thog were Chaotic Evil, do you really think Nale could control the continued rampage? And don't say chocolate sprinkles.

He do that because he like Nale and Elan. Come on, if chaotic character could never be loyal or listen to orders then it would be impossible for them to be in a team. There is many difference between Lawfull and chaotic character but I can tell you that loyalty to friends isnt one of them. Loyalty to kingdom or royalty yes, thats lawfull, but lawfull character can betray someone they like if those peoples go against their duty or their code (durkon and hilgya) and chaotic character can do anything for their friends if they feel like it (Elan)!

Now I dont want to list all the difference between chaotic and lawfull so lets stick with the most important one: Lawfull character act out of duty. They were raised to think or do the things they think or do. Someone Lawfull who come from a good society is automatically good while someone Lawfull from an evil society is automatically evil. Chaotic people though do what they want and think whatever they want. Someone chaotic coming from ANY society can be of any alignement they want on the moral axis (thats also why a good guy coming from an evil race like drow or goblins would be automatically CHAOTIC good. While an evil halfling would probably be Chaotic evil)

Now, does Thog act out of duty? Does Thog serve a greater purpose? Does Thog have a code? Or does he act on a whim? Hes chaotic and very chaotic too.