PDA

View Full Version : Skullclan Hunter build



Person_Man
2007-09-14, 02:11 PM
Recent Rogue discussions have re-sparked my interest in an old Prestige Class that has a lot of potential, but it's difficult to execute well.

Here's a brief summary:

Skullclan Hunter from the Miniatures Handbook

Reqs: Any good, ability to Turn Undead, +2d6 Sneak Attack, Knowledge (relgion) 8 ranks.

7/10 BAB, 6 Skill points per level, d6 Hit Dice, Good Ref and Will Saves.

Over ten levels, you gain: +3d6 Sneak Attack, full Sneak Attack damage vs. Undead, the ability to Track Undead with Knowledge religion, Immunity to Fear (Undead only), Immunity to all disease, paralysis, ability drain, ability damage, and energy drain, permanent Protection from Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm), and any weapon you wield counts as Ghost Touch and ignores DR from Undead.

There are some huge benefits to this class. First, you rock the house against undead, a common enemy which is normally a big problem for Skill Monkey builds. You don't even have to qualify for Sneak Attack via flanking or whatnot, you just deal your Sneak Attack damage against them on every attack. You're immune to many of the things that commonly kill PCs. Permanent Protection from Evil makes you immune to summoned creatures and many Enchantment effects. Immunity to ability damage means that you can wear a Ring of X Ray Vision all day, making you an excellent Scout.

However, the downsides are pretty bad. +3d6 Sneak Attack over 10 levels is pretty poor, which means you're going to have to rely on feats and magic items to deal real damage. And some of the abilities (immunity to fear, disease) overlap with a Paladin or Paladin of Freedom (whose immunity to compulsion overlaps somewhat with permanent Protection from Evil), making a dip into Cleric all but mandatory to gain entry.

So, here's a simple request. What are your ideas to make this PrC powerful and/or playable?

Perhaps an alternate entry, using Assassin's Stance, Spellthief, or a PrC that grants Sneak Attack?

Any special combos that take advantage of its many immunities?

Suggested feats or builds?

Thanks in advance.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-14, 02:36 PM
I would recommend using Sacred Exorcist or a similar PrC as the means to acquire the necessary Turn Undead feature, rather than a Cleric dip, since it'd be likely "on the way" to meeting the prerequisites for Skullclan Hunter and--provided you have the correct build--would probably augment rather than hamper your existing class features.

Actually, could you use Advanced Learning as a Beguiler to get detect evil or dismissal and thereby gain entry to Sacred Exorcist, without losing a caster level, and move into Skullclan Hunter from there?

Unlike my usual recommendations, I would not recommend Spellthief as an entry for this, unless the Beguiler trick works: without arcane casting, there's no real reason to use it, as you can't stack in Master Spellthief. However, if you can work a build that looks similar to Rogue 1/Spellthief 1/Beguiler 5/Sacred Exorcist 1/Skullclan Hunter X, it may be to your advantage. Of course, Beguiler's casting at this point would have to take a back seat to your more rogue-like powers, but the few spells (invisibility, knock, etc) you would have would likely prove useful even at higher levels. Further, since you'd have access to the entire list, you could UMD a bunch of the more useful Beguiler spells.

Thinker
2007-09-14, 03:11 PM
I don't think Beguiler works due to the Sneak Attack requirement.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-14, 03:12 PM
I don't think Beguiler works due to the Sneak Attack requirement.

That's what the Spellthief 1/Rogue 1 is for. However, upon review, it appears that Beguiler's Advanced Learning is Illusion/Enchantment only, and Detect Evil is Divination.

So let me alter the build some. Spellthief 5/Paladin of Freedom 1/Rogue 3/Sacred Exorcist 1/Skullclan Hunter X.

Alternatively, Diviner 1/Spellthief 1/Rogue 1/Beguiler 4/Sacred Exorcist 1/Skullclan Hunter X, or Rogue 1/Spellthief 1/Diviner 5/Sacred Exorcist 1/Skullclan Hunter X.

Oh, hell, detect evil is divine-only. Never mind.

Um, Rogue 3/Archivist 1/Swordsage 2/Sacred Exorcist 1/Skullclan Hunter X, and don't focus on Wis. Take the Carmendine Monk or Kung-Fu Genius feat to switch your Wis-to-AC to Int-to-AC, and be as Int-centric as possible. Also, I think you'll be able to qualify for Assassin's Stance at that point, which will give you some extra Sneak Attack to stack with your two Rogue dice. You'll walk into Skullclan Hunter with Turn Undead, four SA dice, and a few minimal divine spells--and the ability to UMD any divine spell, ever.

Person_Man
2007-09-14, 04:07 PM
Not sure about Sacred Exorcist. 1 level gets me +1 Caster Level and Turn Undead. That's less then I would get from Cleric, given that I'd also get domain powers.

I just realized I could also go Whatever 5/Chameleon 3/Skullclan Hunter X. Chameleon get Turn Undead.

Sadly, I still haven't thought of a way to solve the damage output problem. Sneak Attack is only +3.5 average damage every other level AT BEST, putting it well behind virtually everything else in D&D. This build looks like it might only end up with +6d6ish Sneak Attack, with a serious lack of offensive powers and/or feat combos.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-14, 04:17 PM
You could get an extra +2d6 from Martial Study/Martial Stance-ing Assassin's Strike.

Actually, you could go Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Rogue 1/Spellthief 1/Ninja 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Chameleon 3/Skullclan Hunter X. 3d6 SA (5d6 with Martial Stanced Assassin's Stance), +1d6 Sudden Strike, with Pounce, before Skullclan Hunter.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-14, 04:26 PM
And take a gigantic penalty to exp. Each class that's not favored after the second detracts 20% from the exp you gain. Seein' 7 classes (including PrC's, unless I'm very wrong), assuming human, you gain 20% of all xp. Might be tah ub3rz0rz, but you'll die from old age before you become uber.

AmberVael
2007-09-14, 04:33 PM
PrCs are not subject to the multiclassing penalty, plus, all of the base classes are at the same level and therefore incur no penalty.
So it all works out. :smallsmile:

Fax Celestis
2007-09-14, 04:33 PM
And take a gigantic penalty to exp. Each class that's not favored after the second detracts 20% from the exp you gain. Seein' 7 classes (including PrC's, unless I'm very wrong), assuming human, you gain 20% of all xp. Might be tah ub3rz0rz, but you'll die from old age before you become uber.

Er, no. Since they're all at the same level, there's no XP penalty. Multiclass penalties only appear when there's a two-level or greater difference.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-14, 04:37 PM
Chamaeleon 3, and skullclan X, more than 3. That's 20% already, which means instantly you bettah create solo adventures all the time, or that char is gonna lag, fast.

AmberVael
2007-09-14, 04:44 PM
Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.
I repeat my last post. Chameleon and Skullclan Hunter are both PrCs. They do not incur penalties. The other classes are all base classes, but are all within 1 level of each other, so they are fine.

TheLogman
2007-09-14, 05:25 PM
Cleric 5/Rouge 3. Most people would avoid this relatively simplistic build, but Cleric 5 gives third level favorites like Wind Wall, Cure Serious Wounds, Searing Light, (Great against undead, doing 5d6x2 damage against those buggers) the sometimes useful Water Walk, most of the remove spells, Dispel Magic, Bestow Curse, and other stuff, all pretty good, plus your Domains. He'd be good at undead killing, and a useful party healer too. For Domains, I recommend Sun, (Greater Turning is good when you need to destroy something bad), and maybe Plant? You could go Ehlonna.

Kaelik
2007-09-14, 05:32 PM
Cleric 5/Rouge 3. Most people would avoid this relatively simplistic build, but Cleric 5 gives third level favorites like Wind Wall, Cure Serious Wounds, Searing Light, (Great against undead, doing 5d6x2 damage against those buggers) the sometimes useful Water Walk, most of the remove spells, Dispel Magic, Bestow Curse, and other stuff, all pretty good, plus your Domains. He'd be good at undead killing, and a useful party healer too. For Domains, I recommend Sun, (Greater Turning is good when you need to destroy something bad), and maybe Plant? You could go Ehlonna.

Greater Turning would be largely useless at later levels since your turning as a level 5 cleric.

goat
2007-09-14, 05:40 PM
The problem with Cleric/Rogue is the MAD issue. You'll want dexterity, intelligence AND wisdom, especially if you want to play it as a skillmonkey.

JackMage666
2007-09-14, 05:49 PM
Cleric 1/Rogue 4 gets you in at Lvl 6. 10 levels of Skullclan hunter, and then you have 5 levels left over at the end of the day.

I don't really like this class, but that's because I hate the requirements. Turn Undead means you have spells, since all the classes that give Turn Undead gives spells at the same level. However, this does nothing for CL or spells, making it hard to be a caster. I think the PrC would have improved greatly if they gave Half-Caster Progression (I know, it sucks to get, but it's alot better for that 1 lvl dip in Cleric), and, if what you say is true, limit the Undead-Sneak Attack to only when you could normally sneak attack something (flat-footed, flanked, ect.) I'm not sure that's how the ability works, though, as I remember reading it as normal sneak attack, only effecting undead.

TheLogman
2007-09-14, 05:50 PM
But, if this is just a build, and you are starting at a level past the Cleric levels, then it doesn't matter what your wisdom is, you only need 13 Wisdom to cast level 3 spells, 16 if you want the bonus level 3 spell. Most the spells you cast are either Buffs, healings, or don't give saving throws anyway. Then, he's only DAD.

As to the Greater Turning, granted, its useless against a Lich, but a pile of skeletons would be destroyed. I don't have knowledge of any other Domains other than the PHB ones, but I'm sure somewhere there are Domains that kill Undead easy. (I still like Sun against Undeads)

EDIT: As to the Cleric Dip, if you just wanna stab undead, that would work excellently.

Gralamin
2007-09-14, 06:30 PM
Dragon 357 has a feat called "Sacred Outlaw" that allows you to stack Cleric and Rogue levels for sneak attack and turning damage.

Leon
2007-09-15, 09:14 AM
The problem with Cleric/Rogue is the MAD issue. You'll want dexterity, intelligence AND wisdom, especially if you want to play it as a skillmonkey.

a high WIS is not needed particuly if you are just going to be using buffing spells, a 13 will enable you to cast as much as needed

Darrin
2007-09-15, 10:38 PM
Sadly, I still haven't thought of a way to solve the damage output problem. Sneak Attack is only +3.5 average damage every other level AT BEST, putting it well behind virtually everything else in D&D. This build looks like it might only end up with +6d6ish Sneak Attack, with a serious lack of offensive powers and/or feat combos.

What about the Craven feat, or is that too much cheese?

Hmm. Shadow Blade would add your Dex to damage. Swashbuckler would add Int. Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3+ with Daring Outlaw gives you sneak progression, good BAB, and Int on damage. Hmm, Battlesmith 1 and Shiba Protector 1 add Wis to damage. SwordSage gets you Shadow Blade, +Wis on some attacks, and Assassin's Stance. There are a bunch of one-level PrC dips where you can pick up +1d6 Sneak (Ronin, Nightsong Enforcer, Assassin, Shadow Thief of Amn, Mole, Master of Masks).

RTGoodman
2007-09-15, 11:49 PM
Cleric 5/Rouge 3. Most people would avoid this relatively simplistic build, but Cleric 5 gives third level favorites like Wind Wall, Cure Serious Wounds, Searing Light, (Great against undead, doing 5d6x2 damage against those buggers) the sometimes useful Water Walk, most of the remove spells, Dispel Magic, Bestow Curse, and other stuff, all pretty good, plus your Domains. He'd be good at undead killing, and a useful party healer too. For Domains, I recommend Sun, (Greater Turning is good when you need to destroy something bad), and maybe Plant? You could go Ehlonna.

And hey, isn't Searing Light a ray spell? Because if, as you say, a member of this PrC gets sneak attack every time he attacks undead, you could definitely just attack them with a Searing Light Sneak Attack for a bunch of damage. If you can get +5d6 or more SA damage, that's a maximum of 15d6 against undead, and 10d8 + 5d6 against Undead with light vulnerability. Then toss on some various metamagics and stuff to power up rays. Ooh, or here's a different build:

Cleric 5/Rogue 1/Spellwarped Sniper 5/Skullclan Hunter X. That'll give you +3d6 SA before Skullclan, casting as a 10th level Cleric, various abilities with ray spells (including the ability to turn spells into ray spells - you know, for harming undead at a distance with Cure spells), and then whatever the Skullclan Hunter gives you.

zopzop
2007-10-03, 03:38 PM
Can anyone help me with a question I have about the Skullclan Hunter class? According to the information provided in the very first post of this thread : the SKullclan hunter gets immunity to ability damage and ability drain, but not poison. My question is, what happens if a Skullclan Hunter is subjected to a poison attack that deals ability damage (like black lotus extract : initial damage 3d6 CON, secondary damage 3d6 CON) or ability drain (like a molydeus' snake bite : initial drain 2d6 CON, secondary drain 2d6 CON) or special combo poisons like liltu poison (2d6 WIS drain and 1d4 negative levels)?

Will the Skullclan Hunter be subjected to the ability damage/drain/negative levels, or will he be immune thanks to his immunities?

Tor the Fallen
2007-10-03, 03:54 PM
Cleric 5/Rouge 3. Most people would avoid this relatively simplistic build, but Cleric 5 gives third level favorites like Wind Wall, Cure Serious Wounds, Searing Light, (Great against undead, doing 5d6x2 damage against those buggers) the sometimes useful Water Walk, most of the remove spells, Dispel Magic, Bestow Curse, and other stuff, all pretty good, plus your Domains. He'd be good at undead killing, and a useful party healer too. For Domains, I recommend Sun, (Greater Turning is good when you need to destroy something bad), and maybe Plant? You could go Ehlonna.

Yeah, but with UMD, you can do all that and more.