Ropers' attacks

[NerdHut]

I'm planning to use some ropers in my next adventure, but before I settle on the exact situation of the encounter and how many ropers I put in, I wanted to check if I'm understanding their attacks correctly. The two things in particular are Drag and Weakness.


Drag (Ex)

If a roper hits with a strand attack, the strand latches onto the opponent’s body. This deals no damage but drags the stuck opponent 10 feet closer each subsequent round (provoking no attack of opportunity) unless that creature breaks free, which requires a DC 23 Escape Artist check or a DC 19 Strength check. The check DCs are Strength-based, and the Escape Artist DC includes a +4 racial bonus. A roper can draw in a creature within 10 feet of itself and bite with a +4 attack bonus in the same round. A strand has 10 hit points and can be attacked by making a successful sunder attempt. However, attacking a roper’s strand does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the strand is currently attached to a target, the roper takes a -4 penalty on its opposed attack roll to resist the sunder attempt. Severing a strand deals no damage to a roper.




Weakness (Ex)

A roper’s strands can sap an opponent’s strength. Anyone grabbed by a strand must succeed on a DC 18 Fortitude save or take 2d8 points of Strength damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.



My understanding of "Drag" is that the roper makes its touch attacks, and then the next turn it drags the opponent closer. What I'm not completely clear on is whether it drags the opponent 10 feet closer all total, or per strand.

For "Weakness," I'm not sure how frequent this should be. With the level of strength damage it does, I would think it's meant to be a once per opponent per encounter or round sort of thing. Using it each time a strand attaches, or once per round per strand both seem overpowered.

Anybody have some insight on this? I don't have many ranks in "Use Roper"

[Crake]

Having never actually read the roper entry properly before, but reading it now, I believe this is how it works: A roper can attack with it's strands as a full attack, latching onto as many enemies as it wants to in the process. Hitting with a strand lets it latch on. Each round a creature remains latched, it gets dragged closer 10ft automatically. The real question then comes to the weakness ability.

It is worded ambiguously, so it's not clear whether it's an activated ability, where the roper saps the strength from all grabbed creatures for 2d8 str damage as a standard action, or whether it's automatic upon being grapped, however, if you look at the roper's attack line, it says "Strand +11 ranged touch (drag)". Note that it does not say "drag and weakness". This is what leads me to lean toward the weakness ability being an active ability that the roper can use after latching onto enemies, allowing it a standard action to damage all grabbed foes for 2d8 strength damage.

[Kayblis]

I see Crake's interpretation of the abilities working, but when I read the monster entry the first time I saw the Weakness effect working mechanically as a poison effect - it acts once when the Roper grabs(instead of "on hit" like a contact/injury poison, it's "on grab"). As the damage is very high(2d8 to STR is a probable instagib on wizards and can take even a barbarian out in about three rounds), I believe it only acts on first contact, ie a grabbed creature is not affected in subsequent rounds in which it's being dragged.

[Darrin]

Whether it's an activated ability or not, Weakness is (Ex), and MM p. 315 says:

"Using an extraordinary ability is a free action unless otherwise noted."

So the activation is largely moot: once the strand hits, the target makes a Fort save vs. 2d8 Str damage. This either happens as a passive ability, or as an active ability after the roper has attacked with all its strands.

As far as whether the drag is 10' total or 10' per strand... I'd say that's a DM Call, and I would recommend: Ropers are already pretty deadly, give the PCs a break and call it 10' per round rather than 10' per strand.

[NerdHut]

Alright, based on current input, I'm inclined to rule that the drag is 10 feet total each round. With the space I'm likely to use it won't significantly impact the number of rounds it takes to draw someone in, since they'll start off relatively close.

The Weakness ability, I'm still not sure on. But I'm leaning toward each roper only being able to affect each party member once (so if I only use one roper, each party member can only have their strength sapped once. If I use two, each party member can have their strength sapped twice, if both ropers get the chance). I figure that still gives a significant challenge, but isn't quite in the realm of a garaunteed TPK.

[Crake]

Whether it's an activated ability or not, Weakness is (Ex), and MM p. 315 says:

"Using an extraordinary ability is a free action unless otherwise noted."

So the activation is largely moot: once the strand hits, the target makes a Fort save vs. 2d8 Str damage. This either happens as a passive ability, or as an active ability after the roper has attacked with all its strands.

As far as whether the drag is 10' total or 10' per strand... I'd say that's a DM Call, and I would recommend: Ropers are already pretty deadly, give the PCs a break and call it 10' per round rather than 10' per strand.

For something that is covered by the player's handbook, the monster manual AND the DMG, when it comes to playing the game, the PHB takes precedence. The PHB states:


Extraordinary Abilities: Using an extraordinary ability (such as a barbarian’s uncanny dodge ability) is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are usually standard actions that cannot be disrupted, do not require concentration, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

The SRD further states:


Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted.

I don't actually see any errata changing the line in the MM, but all entities follow the same rules in 3.5, and since determining the action of an extraordinary ability, whether it be player or monster, comes under "playing the game", the PHB take's precedence according the the MM errata documents. The monster manual has the ability to override this rule for specific monsters, but not as a general rule.

[Segev]

It definitely spells out that, upon hitting with a strand attack, it drags 10 feet. The "drag" ability goes on to detail how this works in subsequent rounds while hold is maintained. IIRC, Ropers aren't limited in the number of strands they can extrude, only to attacking once per round with one.

So, combat with a Roper looks like this, roughly:

Round 1: Strand attacks one of the PCs, and drags him closer. Weakness kicks in.
Round 2: Strand attacks another PC, drags him closer. First PC dragged closer as well as part of the continuing effect. Weakness kicks in.
etc.

Now, the Weakness thing is weirdly written. I think the intent is for it to kick off on the first hit, or maybe once per round. It's conceivable to read the RAW such that it can be used infinite times, as long as the DM allows infinite free actions.

Personally, I'd run it as once per hit with a strand, based on this logic: If it already is dragging you, it doesn't need to weaken you further. If you broke free, then it obviously needs to weaken you further with its next attack.

[PrismCat21]

(I'm just using sources provided within this thread.)


For something that is covered by the player's handbook, the monster manual AND the DMG, when it comes to playing the game, the PHB takes precedence.

The monster manual has the ability to override this rule for specific monsters, but not as a general rule.

Assuming that a Roper's Weakness ability actually takes an action...
The issue I see is that the PHB is making a general statement, and not a rule.

Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are usually standard actions
Bolded by you.


Using an extraordinary ability is a free action unless otherwise noted.
Specific trumps general. Between the general statement in the PHB and the specific rule in the MM, the MM wins out.
The SRD really shouldn't be brought up at all since it's technically third party.

RAW, it seems Weakness is a free action to activate.
RAI, it seems obvious that Weakness is reactive, 'not an action'.
It 'activates' at the time a creature is grabbed. If the creature is released and grabbed again, it must make another save, or be affected again.

For another example you can flip a couple pages over to the Salamander's Heat ability. It's an Extraordinary Special Attack that doesn't specify any 'action'. Just a condition in which it applies.

[Crake]

(I'm just using sources provided within this thread.)



Assuming that a Roper's Weakness ability actually takes an action...
The issue I see is that the PHB is making a general statement, and not a rule.

Bolded by you.


Specific trumps general. Between the general statement in the PHB and the specific rule in the MM, the MM wins out.
The SRD really shouldn't be brought up at all since it's technically third party.

RAW, it seems Weakness is a free action to activate.
RAI, it seems obvious that Weakness is reactive, 'not an action'.
It 'activates' at the time a creature is grabbed. If the creature is released and grabbed again, it must make another save, or be affected again.

For another example you can flip a couple pages over to the Salamander's Heat ability. It's an Extraordinary Special Attack that doesn't specify any 'action'. Just a condition in which it applies.

The SRD site is third party, but the content itself is wotc published, so it is quite certainly 1st party.

That said, I went and checked rules compendium, as I would call it the primary source for rules clarifications, and well, turns out it mirrors the MM sentiment of free action unless otherwise stated, so that's why I dropped the argument.