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n00b
2018-08-31, 08:37 AM
I'm looking for the best way to optimize a warlock/wizard tank.

We haven't rolled stats yet but the worst I can do if rolls are not good is to take the standard array and our DM let's us make the 15 at 16 thereby giving everyone the chance to start with an 18. So for this exercise let's use the following:

16 14 13 12 10 8

Also we can use any official published material, just no UA please. Not confined to AL so can mix and match whatever sources.

What I'd like to do is upcast Armor of Agathys as best I can giving myself the temp hps and potential damage to attackers if they hit me. Also using the Arcane Ward creating a buffer of temp hps to keep Armor of Agathys up and functioning. Using Deep Gnome as a race I can cast Nondetection to replenish the Arcane Ward.

So just for those criteria then Warlock 1/Abjuration Wizard X seems to be the best bet.

The biggest drawback I see there these:
1) Lack of Con proficiency
2) Limited to light armor and no shield since I was looking at something other than Hexblade.

I see several remedies but not sure which is optimal:
1) Take 1 level of fighter to start. Fixes both of the concerns above but delays progress by a level.
2) Take 1 level of cleric. Depending on the domain that could fix the armor and shield issue but not Con proficiency.
3) Take Hexblade, because it's just one of the best 1 level dips ever. *sigh* Fixes armor and shield but not Con proficiency.
4) Be vHuman and take Resilient Con. Fixes con saves but still no armor or shield and removes the ability to recharge Arcane Ward at will.

Also, what's the best way of delivering damage with this setup? What damage cantrips work best? If I have weapon proficiencies then Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade obviously spring to mind. But if that's not the case then what are alternatives?

Your help is greatly appreciated.

TL;DR Optimize a Warlock/Abjurer Wizard tank!

rbstr
2018-08-31, 08:49 AM
I wouldn't worry so much about AC. You kinda want to get hit.

I guess, in terms of actually being a tank, you need to draw agro and actually make enemies hit you. You're going to have to wade into melee range, but you don't have much melee proficiency or ways to really encourage enemies to hit your very spiky, hard-to-kill butt instead of someone else.

n00b
2018-08-31, 09:39 AM
I wouldn't worry so much about AC. You kinda want to get hit.

I guess, in terms of actually being a tank, you need to draw agro and actually make enemies hit you. You're going to have to wade into melee range, but you don't have much melee proficiency or ways to really encourage enemies to hit your very spiky, hard-to-kill butt instead of someone else.

I agree that I want to get hit, but only to a certain extent. Light armor and a 14 dex gives me an AC of 14. I think that might be inviting a bit too much trouble.

And yeah I'm going to want to be in melee but without any real melee proficiency I need some help on dealing damage. Cantrips like Toll the Dead come to mind but I'm not sure what some of the other alternatives there are to swinging a big stick.

Man_Over_Game
2018-08-31, 11:38 AM
You're missing the most obvious answer!

Not Cleric. Not Fighter.

BARBARIAN.

Rage to half damage. Cast Armor of Agathys at your highest level possible. It'll get at least two hits before breaking while you are going to town chopping them to bits. Max out on Con for AC bonuses and concentration checks. Reckless attacks improves your attacks while making you easier to hit (works well with Agathys).

After rage is done, swap over to powerful Concentration spells. Shadow Blade, Darkness + Devil's Sight invocation, Fly all work well with a Barbarian's aggression, while you use your Armor + Rage combo for the main fights.

I'd just ditch the Abjuration altogether, opting to invest more in Barbarian or Warlock (Probably Warlock). If you do invest more in Barbarian, I'd recommend Storm Herald (to punish people who try to engage you during your rage) or Totem for Bear (to further reduce damage dealt to Armor of Agathys).


[Edit]:
Huh. Just realized I accidentally came up with the exact suggestion from PeteNutButter's Ultimate Optimization guide for Warlock/Barbarian, as I literally found it about 15 minutes after posting this. Here's the link if you're interested: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502248-Ultimate-Optimizer-s-Multiclassing-Guide

Gorgo
2018-08-31, 12:14 PM
Have you considered going bladesinger instead of abjuration wizard? That'll get you a big AC boost, although at the cost of the abjurer's shield.

Bloodcloud
2018-08-31, 12:44 PM
Do you know what other players will do? If someone's gonna play a cleric, I have a suggestion for you.

The thing with that combo is it works only on melee damages. Area and ranged wont trigger the spike damage. Also, as many have mentionned, enemies don't have many incentive to keep hitting you, and you are now a MAD one trick pony with delayed progression. Don't forget that deep gnomes must invest in a feat for that at will cast, so that's potentially delay on your main stat advancement.

You could be better off going vhuman ftr 1/hexblade X

Take heavy armor master at lvl 1. Now S/B/P damage is at -3, which is significant for the first few level (and remains something even later on)

When lvl 2 slot are available, have you party cleric cast warding bond on you for half damage from every source.

At lvl 5 (ftr1wlk4) take Sentinel. Now the fools can't get away easy.

It's far more efficient and elegant. You keep many casting of armor of aghatys at max level, your party cleric sacrifices his 2nd level slot which are largely expendable later on, and you got plenty of way to keep enemies on you.

CTurbo
2018-08-31, 01:16 PM
You're on the right track. Deep Gnome Warlock 2/Abjurer 18 or if you're pretty sure you're not ever going to make it anywhere near level 20, Warlock 3 for Tome for extra cantrips and rituals would be great. I'm trying to figure out which Patron would be best and tbh, I think Hexblade would even if you don't intend on making any weapon attacks. Of course if you do you would be better at it. You obviously don't want armor but using a shield would be good.

Unlike most people, I actually want a high Dex and therefor a high AC. I love the idea of a tiny Gnome Wizard walking around doing whatever he wants to do without fear of getting hurt, and when he does get hit, he makes the enemy PAY for it lol.

Vogie
2018-08-31, 01:19 PM
I'm looking for the best way to optimize a warlock/wizard tank.

We haven't rolled stats yet but the worst I can do if rolls are not good is to take the standard array and our DM let's us make the 15 at 16 thereby giving everyone the chance to start with an 18. So for this exercise let's use the following:

16 14 13 12 10 8

Also we can use any official published material, just no UA please. Not confined to AL so can mix and match whatever sources.

What I'd like to do is upcast Armor of Agathys as best I can giving myself the temp hps and potential damage to attackers if they hit me. Also using the Arcane Ward creating a buffer of temp hps to keep Armor of Agathys up and functioning. Using Deep Gnome as a race I can cast Nondetection to replenish the Arcane Ward.

So just for those criteria then Warlock 1/Abjuration Wizard X seems to be the best bet.

The biggest drawback I see there these:
1) Lack of Con proficiency
2) Limited to light armor and no shield since I was looking at something other than Hexblade.

I see several remedies but not sure which is optimal:
1) Take 1 level of fighter to start. Fixes both of the concerns above but delays progress by a level.
2) Take 1 level of cleric. Depending on the domain that could fix the armor and shield issue but not Con proficiency.
3) Take Hexblade, because it's just one of the best 1 level dips ever. *sigh* Fixes armor and shield but not Con proficiency.
4) Be vHuman and take Resilient Con. Fixes con saves but still no armor or shield and removes the ability to recharge Arcane Ward at will.

Also, what's the best way of delivering damage with this setup? What damage cantrips work best? If I have weapon proficiencies then Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade obviously spring to mind. But if that's not the case then what are alternatives?

Your help is greatly appreciated.

TL;DR Optimize a Warlock/Abjurer Wizard tank!

I'd probably do
STR 8
DEX 16
CON 12+1 (Vhuman) +1 (Resilient Con)
INT 13 +1 (Vhuman)
WIS 10
CHA 14

for a total of 8 16 14 14 10 14

I'd start off with Warlock 2, Wizard X

Hexblade Warlock for Shield Proficiency +2
Armor of shadows invocation for 13+DEX armor.
That gives you 18 AC.
If you forgo Armor of shadows for medium armor (half plate) you can get upto 19 AC.

You'll be in melee with a dagger or quarterstaff for the most part... which is fine due to hex warrior, as they'll key off of Charisma in lieu of STR/DEX.
If you increase the Warlock levels to 3, you can choose pact of the blade to use (that is, become proficient in) a longsword, whip, or any other one-handed weapon, and grab the Improved pact weapon invocation that will let you use your pact weapon as your arcane focus, in addition to being a +1

(IF you don't want to wield a shield and choose a different patron, you'll want to probably choose pact of the Tome instead, picking up Shillelagh from the druid list to still have that SAD effect. You can still get the shield spell from your wizard levels, then cast it with your warlock spell slots. You will need to spend your first ASI on DEX to crank up your normal AC though, as with 16 DEX you'd only have 16 AC with Mage Armor & 17 AC with medium armor. However, you'll likely have to get an arcane focus ring or pick up Warcaster soon so you don't keep dropping your staff to cast)

Personally, I think the pairing between Warlock & Abjuration Wizard is great, as the ward will soak up damage, making AoA more efficient, effectively adding 2x the spell level of AoA to the THP provided. It also will provide benefits if you increase the value of spells like Shield, as casting them with a higher level spell slot will add power to the Arcane Ward, instead of doing nothing.

GFB is probably the best cantrip in your situation. Booming blade only deals full damage when they move, and you'll be intending to keep them on you for as much as possible.

ATHATH
2018-08-31, 03:20 PM
I prefer using the Armor of Shadows invocation instead of being a Deep Gnome- it saves you a feat and lets you choose a better race (such as, say, winged tiefling or variant human) at the cost of a level, which is pretty good in my book.

Warding Bond is actually a really good idea here, as I think you can trigger Arcane Ward after Armor of Agathys triggers and the resistance to damage applies, but BEFORE your Warding Bond partner takes damage. Since it's the WARD taking damage, that should keep your partner from taking the damage that you take.

Take Warcaster and just act like a normal Wizard- except for standing NEAR enemies instead of away from them, so that melee enemies either have to eat a spell being cast at them (because they moved away from you), take a load of damage from your Arcane Ward (because they attacked you), waste their (bonus) action (because they moved away from you; might not even work if you took the Sentinel feat), somehow make a ranged attack, cast a spell (I'd say to take Mage Slayer... but you probably have better things to spend your feats on), or sit on their thumbs and do nothing.

EDIT: To elaborate on the Warding Bond thing:

I believe that the order of operations goes as follows:
1. A melee attacker hits you for what would normally be 20 damage.
2. Armor of Agathys procs ("If a creature hits you with a melee attack while you have these hit points, the creature takes 5 cold damage." (note that it's "hits", not "deals damage")), dealing damage to your attacker (even if it kills the attacker, though, the damage should still go through (how does this interact with "when your spell kills an enemy" abilities, though? Maybe this should be moved to elsewhere in the list; it doesn't really matter where, though)).
3. Resistance applies, reducing the damage to 10 ("While the target is within 60 feet of you, it gains a +1 bonus to AC and Saving Throws, and it has Resistance to all damage.").
4. Arcane Ward soaks up the 10 damage ("Whenever you take damage, the ward takes the damage instead. If this damage reduces the ward to 0 hit points, you take any remaining damage.").
5. Since no damage was dealt to you (only to your Arcane Ward), your Cleric (or Bard, etc.) buddy takes no damage.

Pretty good for a no-concentration, second level spell that lasts for an hour (the same duration as Armor of Agathys!)!

LudicSavant
2018-08-31, 04:27 PM
Nobody seems to have mentioned Moderately Armored yet. One thing to remember is that the Moderately Armored feat doesn't just give Medium Armor proficiency, it grants shield proficiency and a +1 to Dexterity or Strength too! It's one of those build tools that's just situational enough that people forget it exists.

Option 1) If you want to get a shield and armor on a straight-classed Wizard without jumping through any multiclassing hoops at all, consider the Hobgoblin.

You get proficiency in Light Armor, as well as +2 Con, +1 Int, and 2 martial weapon proficiencies. Grab something like, say, a Rapier and Heavy Crossbow. You also get the fantastic racial ability to give yourself a +5 bonus on any attack roll, saving throw, or ability check after seeing the roll once per short rest. Start with an odd Dexterity score.

At level 4, you can grab "Moderately Armored" and bump your Dexterity score up. Now you've got Medium Armor, 14+ Dex, and a shield proficiency, and you haven't slowed down your Wizard progression at all. Not bad for one half-feat.

That save bonus ability means your lack of Con proficiency matters less, too. In a pinch you can give yourself a +5 bonus on the roll, after seeing it. On top of that, your +2 Con means that you can start at 17 and bump up to 18 with Resilient(Con) later on, if you prefer.

So, basically you could end up with Level 20 Wizard, Medium Armor, Shield Proficiency, Con save proficiency, 16 Dex, 18 Con, 20 Int, and still have an extra ASI to spare in your progression. And on top of all that you have that great "Saving Face" safety net.

Option 2) If you want to start with a Warlock but don't want to be a Hexblade or something, you could take VHuman with Moderately Armored (which starts you off with a shield and Medium Armor and a dex bonus to round out your stats), and then grab Resilient (Con) as your first ASI.

This allows you to have proficiency in Con saves, Medium Armor, Shields, recharge Arcane Ward at will, and avoid Hexblade, Cleric, and Fighter... and gives you bonuses to Con and Dex to boot.

:redcloak:

rbstr
2018-08-31, 05:20 PM
Going full Wizard invalidates the Armor of Agathys concept. Which is fine but not really what OP seemed to be going for.

IMO it's worth looking at Valor Bard rather than Wizard.

You get your weapon/armor proficiency and extra attack. You only need Dex and Cha making it pretty easy to have decent scores. You get War Magic so you can make an attack and cast AoA the same turn. You even get better hit die.

Really, any Bard college works pretty well. Maybe not Glamour since the THP won't stack. Lore's cutting words can be fun.

LudicSavant
2018-08-31, 05:41 PM
Going full Wizard invalidates the Armor of Agathys concept. Which is fine but not really what OP seemed to be going for.

Read option 2. It gets Armor of Agathys and does absolutely everything the OP had on their checklist.


Warlock/Wizard
Gets Armor of Agathys
Recharges Arcane Ward at will.
Gets medium armor and a shield.
Gets Constitution save proficiency.
Doesn't use Hexblade, or any of the other things the OP didn't want.
Build is strong straight from level 1.

n00b
2018-08-31, 06:02 PM
Going full Wizard invalidates the Armor of Agathys concept. Which is fine but not really what OP seemed to be going for.

IMO it's worth looking at Valor Bard rather than Wizard.

You get your weapon/armor proficiency and extra attack. You only need Dex and Cha making it pretty easy to have decent scores. You get War Magic so you can make an attack and cast AoA the same turn. You even get better hit die.

Really, any Bard college works pretty well. Maybe not Glamour since the THP won't stack. Lore's cutting words can be fun.

What Bard feature gives THP to keep AoA from falling? I'm open to other builds as long as it works mechanically similar.

Malifice
2018-08-31, 06:03 PM
Fiend lock.

Take Vuman fighter 1 at 1st [HAM as your feat]. Then Fiend lock to at least 5th level, before heading back to Fighter for 2 more levels (Battlemaster, Samurai and Cavalier all get good tanking options) before back to Lock for the rest.

HAM reduces damage by 3. You get [Lock level+Cha] Temp HP when you kill things. Target mooks to ensure maximum carnage and temp HP. Also armor of agathys (temp HP dont stack, but hey).

Convince your Cleric buddy to cast Warding bond on you for resistance for even more lols.

Dump Dex (you're in heavy armor) and Int. Decent Wisdom for the saves, good Con and max Str and Cha (both should be 16 at 1st)

Take GWM at Lock 4. Kill something, get Temp HP, attack something else.

Greenflame blade is mandatory.

At 6th level (Lock 5/ Ftr 1) you have all the goodness of a GWM Fighter (thirsting blade = 2 attacks) all the tankiness of a Barbarian (18 AC, 15 THP to start encounters thanks to AoA, dealing 15 damage to anyone that hits you, gaining 8 THP on a kill when thats depleted, with DR 3/- to boot) and can cast Fireball and Fly.

n00b
2018-08-31, 06:05 PM
Read option 2. It gets Armor of Agathys and does absolutely everything the OP had on their checklist.


Warlock/Wizard
Gets Armor of Agathys
Recharges Arcane Ward at will.
Gets medium armor and a shield.
Gets Constitution save proficiency.
Doesn't use Hexblade, or any of the other things the OP didn't want.
Build is strong straight from level 1.


With this build do I need 2 levels of Warlock for the Armor of Shadows invocation to recharge Arcane Ward?

LudicSavant
2018-08-31, 06:28 PM
With this build do I need 2 levels of Warlock for the Armor of Shadows invocation to recharge Arcane Ward?

That is correct.

Serafina
2018-09-01, 04:22 AM
Conquest Paladin 3 would give you proficiency with Shields and Heavy armor and gives you Armor of Agathys, as well as other Paladin goodies (a Fighting Style, some Lay on Hands, Divine Smite, Divine Health, Channel Divinity).
The problem with that is of course that it'd cost you three levels, and two levels of spellcasting, so it's pretty damn expensive, but it is another option.

JakOfAllTirades
2018-09-02, 12:01 AM
Githyanki get bonuses to Strength and Intelligence, Light and Medium armor proficiency, as well as swords. They make really good tank/wizard types.

LudicSavant
2018-09-02, 12:28 AM
Githyanki get bonuses to Strength and Intelligence, Light and Medium armor proficiency, as well as swords. They make really good tank/wizard types.

Yep. With a Githyanki you get medium armor and a greatsword right out the gate, and one of the better "racial bonus spells" features available (since they all don't require components, and are spells for which that matters).

AttilatheYeon
2018-09-02, 02:56 AM
Go Svirnebli wiz-lock. 1 level lock (any) Abjurer the rest. Use Armor of Ag and no armor. You want to take hits. To proc the damage back on AoA. While your Arcane Ward is up, AoA doesn’t take damage and you’re still spellcasting. When AoA goes down, switch to Blade Ward to keep AoA up longer. By the time AoA goes down, you should have dropped a few enemies. Use Booming Blade to be sticky.

After the fight use Nondetection to refresh your AW. Then recast AoA. You’ll be super survivable even tho you’re taking a lot of hits. The damage back will also mean you’re dealing lots of damage especially when combined with offensive spells.

LudicSavant
2018-09-02, 04:11 AM
Go Svirnebli wiz-lock. 1 level lock (any) Abjurer the rest. Use Armor of Ag and no armor. You want to take hits. To proc the damage back on AoA. While your Arcane Ward is up, AoA doesn’t take damage and you’re still spellcasting. When AoA goes down, switch to Blade Ward to keep AoA up longer. By the time AoA goes down, you should have dropped a few enemies. Use Booming Blade to be sticky.

After the fight use Nondetection to refresh your AW. Then recast AoA. You’ll be super survivable even tho you’re taking a lot of hits. The damage back will also mean you’re dealing lots of damage especially when combined with offensive spells.

AoA and Abjurer skills go a long way, but not so long that you want to potentially more than double the DPR you'll be eating on a regular basis. Also remember that AoA won't be up 24/7, and that it only works against melee attacks.

To get an idea of just how much of a difference AC makes, let's imagine that 30 bandits attack you as a roadside ambush (this is only a measly 7CR worth of bandits, by the way). With 12 AC (no armor +2 Dex), they have a 60% chance to hit you (and 5% chance to crit), so they'll do an average of 106 DPR with their light crossbows.

With 19 AC (medium armor + shield) that goes all the way down to a 25% chance to hit and 48 DPR. If you decide to Dodge or cast Blur or something, it's a pitiful 11 DPR. Even if they all get advantage, they get 85 DPR.

n00b
2018-09-02, 08:43 AM
I admit it seems like a fine line to walk between taking some hits, but not too many! And as others have mentioned I need to figure out a way to make those enemies want to attack me as opposed to just ignoring me. I thought about taking Agonizing Blast and Crossbow Master so I could use Eldritch Blast at close range. But that's yet another feat I'd need.

LudicSavant
2018-09-02, 03:20 PM
I need to figure out a way to make those enemies want to attack me as opposed to just ignoring me.

How you do this as a full caster tank is going to change from level to level. What level are you?

n00b
2018-09-02, 03:54 PM
How you do this as a full caster tank is going to change from level to level. What level are you?

We start next week at level 1. The plan is to go to 20 so I do need to take that into consideration.

ATHATH
2018-09-03, 02:05 AM
We start next week at level 1. The plan is to go to 20 so I do need to take that into consideration.
I'd recommend going variant human Abj. Wizard 2/Warlock 2/Abj. Wizard 16, so that you get access to Sleep during the first few levels and can get your maingimmick/shtick up at level 4. Variant human lets you pick up War Caster at first level, which is pretty nice (and lets you cast spells at enemies that flee (out of your reach) before your magnificent presence).

Serafina
2018-09-03, 03:01 AM
First, something important to be addressed: Armor of Shadows and Medium Armor don't mix well!
The reason is quite simple: You can't cast Mage Armor on someone who is wearing armor. So you'd have to get out of your armor after each fight (which takes a minute), cast your mage armor until your ward is recharged, then get into the armor again.
You could ask for GM-permission to get around that - after all, you're fine with your Mage Armor not doing anything, it's just there for the recharge effect.
Otherwise, you're either stuck with a 6+ minute rest after each fight, you'll have to rely on Mage Armor for protection. or you'll have to either be a Svirfneblin and spend a feat for the free recharge, or do without.
(I realized this while writing the below, and didn't edit because eh).




Keep in mind that you're still a Wizard. One of the most dangerous full-casters around. And you're not actually spending that many spell resources on your magical defense.
That alone should be plenty of incentive for enemies to attack you, most of the time. You shouldn't have to force them - they'll want to to interrupt your Concentration, or just to bring you down so that you can't cast any more of your nasty spells.


But if you don't want to rely on that, one possible build would be Variant Human to get Sentinel ASAP, then start with two levels of Hexblade, then just go Wizard. For your other feats, you'll probably want Resilient (Constitution) and War Caster (in either order), and the rest should just be Intelligence-ASIs. For Invocations, you'd of course get Armor of Shadows for free recharges, and one other nice low-level one.

At first level, you'd just do your standard Sentinel-thing - creatures have a hard time moving past you. If they do get stuck next to you, you can punish them really hard for it with Booming Blade and Sentinel - and attacking you isn't easy either, so you have a nice Catch22. You can also try pulling creatures into your reach, either with Lightning Lure (the limited reach doesn't matter, but the strength-save does) or Grasp of Hadard (taking up your other Invocation-slot, but it doesn't require a save and has better damage).
At later levels, you'll want to use standard spellcasting a lot more - it's just too powerful a tool! But with War Caster and Sentinel, you can still be on the front lines and heavily punish anyone near you. If they provoke from movement, Booming Blade makes them want to stay near you. If they provoke from Sentinel, you just hit them with a decent melee attack.

This can work without Variant Human, but at the cost of an ASI and spending your first six levels without Sentinel and thus effectively no tank-features.
This can work without Hexblade, but you'll lose easy access to martial weapons and medium armor (other races can replace that, but not being a variant human hurts a lot). You can afford high strenght instead of high charisma - you don't care much about your warlock casting unless you really want Grasp of Hadar - but maybe your group can use someone with good charisma? Also, you don't want to be a Fiend-Warlock since getting Temp-HP from their effect won't stack with Armor of Agathys anyways, and none of the other ones do anything useful either.


The only drawback of all of this is the potential "cheesyness" - you're using a Hexblade dip, you're using Variant human, and you'll be casting Mage Armor on yourself while wearing armor (which requires some awkwardness, see above). But that can be solved by having a nice character background! Fix the awkward stuff with good fluff, and most people won't mind.
So, what are you? Simply a Wizard who has been trained to protect other Wizard by fighting on the front lines? A sworn bodyguard? Someone who made a pact to protect someone they love, and gained their magical power in exchange? Or maybe you'll just go with the Swordmage-fluff from 4th Edition (which you basically are)? Maybe you're a non-elven variant of the Bladesinger? There's tons of other options, find something nice that fits you.

LudicSavant
2018-09-03, 03:35 AM
First, something important to be addressed: Armor of Shadows and Medium Armor don't mix well!

Edit: The PHB seems to be missing rules on exactly what happens when there's an invalid target, which seems to leave it to DM discretion (which sage advice appears to confirm). However, Xanathar's has an optional rule for it.

The (optional) rule for resolving invalid spell targeting is as follows:

If you cast a spell on someone or something that can’t be affected by the spell, nothing happens to that target, but if you used a spell slot to cast the spell, the slot is still expended. If the spell normally has no effect on a target that succeeds on a saving throw, the invalid target appears to have succeeded on its saving throw, even though it didn’t attempt one (giving no hint that the creature is in fact an invalid target). Otherwise, you perceive that the spell did nothing to the target.

Under this rule, it seems like the spell would still occur and charge your ward, but not actually convey the Mage Armor effect.

Serafina
2018-09-03, 04:06 AM
Well, that optional rule really helps, because that's exactly the result we want!
Hexblade would have remained the best option either way, due to giving you martial weapon proficiency, Shield as a spell known, Wrathful Smite as a spell known, and Hexblades Curse. None of the other patrons really compete with that IMO.

LudicSavant
2018-09-03, 05:36 AM
Well, that optional rule really helps, because that's exactly the result we want!
Hexblade would have remained the best option either way, due to giving you martial weapon proficiency, Shield as a spell known, Wrathful Smite as a spell known, and Hexblades Curse. None of the other patrons really compete with that IMO.

Hexblade 2 / Abjurer X is an excellent tank.

Right at level 1, a hexblade's gonna have a rapier and shield, 18 AC, a positive initiative bonus (something many tanks don't have), Armor of Agathys, Booming Blade and Hexblade's curse. Grab Variant Human and you can get War Caster, which is better than Resilient (Con) for concentration checks early on. By level 4 you can get Resilient (Con) if you still feel you need it, and it'll be pretty tough to make you lose concentration at that point.

Anyways, your bread and butter as a level 1 Hexblade is going to be to walk up to some unlucky bastard and cast Booming Blade. They are now screwed, because for most low level monsters, their decision tree now looks like this:
Don't move, attack in melee! Except... the target has 18 AC, and maybe Armor of Agathys, Hellish Rebuke, or Shield. This is bad for them.
Don't move, take out a ranged weapon, and attack someone else! Except... they have disadvantage, and maybe cover penalties. Later on you'll also have your reactive ward to give to an ally. This is bad for them.
Move away from this disadvantageous location and fight someone else! Except... even if they have the movement range to get to others (which isn't a guarantee, especially later when you've got control spells out the wazoo), they eat around 4d8+6 damage from your booming blade, rider, and OA booming blade, from a level 1 character using no resources. If you used Hex and Hexblade's curse, it's 4d8+2d6+10 with an increased chance of crit. And that's with full accuracy... no -5 to hit here. This is bad for them.
Some enemies have abilities that can get around this (like the ability to teleport, or to cast ranged spells that don't care about being in melee when they're cast), but a lot don't, especially early. And when things do start having those sorts of abilities a lot, being a full caster will deal with it. Being an abjurer in particular will help you deal with it even better (thanks to things like a boosted counterspell).

Serafina
2018-09-03, 08:52 AM
Let's not forget the other nice things you get:
- you always have Shield prepared (from your Hexblade multiclass), and short-rest spellslots for it. If you don't want to get hit by a big nasty (because it might dispel your AoA), you can spend your Reaction on not getting hit and slightly recharge your ward by two hitpoints (not much, but every bit can help).
- You can do something most other tanks can't, and counter magic! You're better at Counterspelling that most others (adding your proficiency bonus to any check), and it also recharges your ward (for 6 or more HP).
- You advantage on saving throws against spells, so you're very hard to take out with spells (granted, monster abilities can still work)
- You can teleport with Misty Step. Even tanks need mobility, and can have their movement blocked!
- Wall-spells and other battlefield control can make it easier to keep your friends save and your enemies where you want them.

So where are you suffering compared to other tanks?
Hitpoint-wise, you're stuck with the lowest hit dice in the game - but you also get two extra hit points per level from your arcane ward. That's actually as much as a Fighter gets per level (if you take averages)! And then you have some more from your intelligence, and some more from Armor of Agathys, and those are all easier to recover than normal hitpoints. So you're certainly not suffering there!

Well, you'll have to stop using your action for melee attacks later on, since your effectiveness won't scale too well compared to your normal spellcasting. And you don't get the fancy melee options of the Battlemaster Fighter, etc.
But yes this really does seem like quite a good build.

Lunali
2018-09-03, 09:12 AM
What I'd like to do is upcast Armor of Agathys as best I can giving myself the temp hps and potential damage to attackers if they hit me. Also using the Arcane Ward creating a buffer of temp hps to keep Armor of Agathys up and functioning. Using Deep Gnome as a race I can cast Nondetection to replenish the Arcane Ward.

When you gain temp hp you have to choose whether to take the new hp or keep the old, they don't stack. If you take the new hp, AoA ends.

Serafina
2018-09-03, 10:16 AM
When you gain temp hp you have to choose whether to take the new hp or keep the old, they don't stack. If you take the new hp, AoA ends.Arcane Ward isn't temporary hitpoints though. It's it's own separate thing that takes damage before you do, and unlike tempHP can have it's own hitpoints refilled by you casting spells. There's been Sage Advice on this (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/15/abjurers-arcane-ward-and-temporary-hp/) to confirm that this is intended.

The whole combo depends on that - because your Arcane Ward takes damage before you do, and before your tempHP do, your AoA will last far longer.
For example, at 10th level - with 8 Wizard levels - you'd probably cast AoA in a 4th-level slot, gaining 20 tempHP. That can be gone pretty quickly, in one or two hits if you're unlucky, and doing 20 or 40 damage with a 4th-level slot is kinda a waste. But you'd also have ~21 HP in your Arcane Ward on top of that - so now your AoA is going to last far longer. Especially since you'll have it recharged in a few rounds after every fight. That is going to more than double the damage you get out of it.


Suppose you're 10th level, you're fighting a Hezrou (and some other foes), and you start the fight with full AoA and Arcane Ward.
It hits you with a Bite, doing 15 damage - your Ward goes down to 6 HP. You spend your reaction to cast Shield to not get hit further (and succeed at that), and your Ward goes back up to 8 HP.
You spend your action on casting Banishment, and your ward goes back up to 16 HP.
The Hezrou hits you twice with its claws, doing 11 damage each - your Ward is down to 0 HP, and your AoA is down to 15 tempHP.
You spend your action casting some non-abjuration spell.
The Hezrou attacks again. You cast Shield, your Ward goes back up to 2 HP. It still gets one hit in with it's bite, doing 15 damage - but your AoA barely holds with 2 tempHP left.
You spend your action casting some non-abjuration spell.
The Hezrou attacks again. It hits with one attack, and your AoA is gone.
In total the Hezrou hit you five times, and it takes 10 damage each time (it'd be 20, but it has resistance) for a total of 50 damage. Against a foe without resistance, this could have been 100 damage. The fight was of course vastly simplified (I just assumed you don't banish the demon etc.) just to demonstrate how the Ward and the Armor of Agathys can interact.


Oh, and some good Abjuration-spells to cast in combat:
- Shield is great to get some breathing room to prevent your Armor from getting damaged
- Counterspell is likewise a great use of your reaction, and can protect your allies as well
- Dispel Magic can be useful for the same reason
- Stone Skin makes for a great buff in general for your role (it should even halve the damage your ward takes*), but if needed casting it in combat isn't the worst of ideas.
- Banishment is a strong spell in general, targeting an uncommon save and possibly removing multiple opponents from the fight to be dealth with later (or never, if they're from another plane)
- Prismatic Wall is obviously a great capstone spell for you
- Banishment

LudicSavant
2018-09-03, 11:51 AM
When you gain temp hp you have to choose whether to take the new hp or keep the old, they don't stack. If you take the new hp, AoA ends.

Arcane Ward isn't temporary hit points. Also, Arcane Ward takes damage before temporary hit points do. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/15/abjurers-arcane-ward-and-temporary-hp/)