V as a Mystic Theurge (Mental Exercise)

[xroads]

Ok, before I start, this is just a mental exercise. I know that Vaarsuvius :vaarsuvius: is probably not going to be a mystic theurge (MT). We already had a MT in the story. And having V become one at this point would probably not do much to advance the plot.

Having said that, I can very easily see the justification for V to become one. He’s seeking penance. He wants to make it up to those thousands he so casually murdered. No easy feat.

So, assuming he survives this story, he has very good odds to seek religion. To seek guidance from the gods to help find a path to redemption. But because he’s a PC, this could very easily have him earning cleric levels in whatever religion he finds the most succor. From there it’s a very easy step into a prestige class that offers the best of both the arcane and divine.

What are your guys thoughts on this "What If?" scenario?

If V did follow the MT path, what god(s) do you think he’d worship? The elven god of magic? Would he seek a god known for forgiveness? Or would he follow the footsteps of his friend and counsel Durkon :durkon:, and worship Thor?

[Goblin_Priest]

I think he already worships some elven god of magic. I don't recall the words, but I believe it came up in the very early strips when Elan wanted to convert him to Banjo.

[factotum]

I'm not seeing the person who said in strip #650 "How should I know how long divine spells take to cast? It is not as if they were REAL magic!" becoming a Mystic Theurge, to be honest, no matter how much he wants to atone for his past misdeeds. I'm not even sure how it would help him gain redemption in any case--he can worship a god and perform good deeds without having to become a cleric.

[Anymage]

Roy got into heaven while openly saying that he had an attitude of "I figure that if I leave the gods alone, they'll return the favor". Access to heaven isn't at the discretion of one faith, and even the idea of finding redemption through religion is a bit trickier when there are so many competing faiths out there.

Vaarsuvius finding a religious calling to the point of taking a cleric level is about as likely as Roy doing the same. From there, theurging is basically a multiclass patch for someone who wants to mix two kinds of casting early. (Because splitting your levels evenly between wizard and cleric would put you hugely behind. MT means that you can progress both sides at the same time so that they're both only a little behind where a straight classed caster would be.) V would be giving up ninth level spells for the ability to cast a few first level cleric spells, and by the time he meets the prerequisites the story would basically be over.

[Chronos]

And it's possible to be religious without being a cleric, anyway. In fact, there are some settings where it's almost mandatory for everyone to be religious.

[Sloanzilla]

She doesnt really have enough levels left at this point for much more than a 2 level dip. And first level divine spells instead of 9th level arcane? I would reach into the comic and smack her.

[TRH]

It feels like all their non-INT stats are 8 or less, so unless they chose Archivist as their divine class, they'd be unable to cast any divine spells.

[zimmerwald1915]

She doesnt really have enough levels left at this point for much more than a 2 level dip. And first level divine spells instead of 9th level arcane? I would reach into the comic and smack her.
Why? Would not foregoing the power of 9th-level spells be a mark of character growth?

[TheMiningDwarf]

Why? Would not foregoing the power of 9th-level spells be a mark of character growth?

It would be a mark of something but I'd struggle to call it character growth. I doubt V is going to gain access to 9th level spells in any event but even so intentionally refusing them just seems backwards. V's never struck me as the self-flaggelating type. Heck, V didn't even make it one strip without breaking that whole "no killing people" thing, and that was only because Elan's puns were awful. If V did gain access to 9th level spells I can see them being careful to not go too far or seeking some other way to attone.

Getting back to the point of the thread now, thematically speaking V seeking some kind of divine atonement would be... something. But V doesn't seem especially concerned with religion, even as a means of repentance.

[Aeson]

Why? Would not foregoing the power of 9th-level spells be a mark of character growth?
Technically, assuming Vaarsuvius is a level 16 Wizard currently, becoming a Mystic Theurge wouldn't be foregoing 9th-level arcane spells. It'd be seriously delaying them - Vaarsuvius would need three levels of Cleric or Druid, Wis 13+, and Knowledge:Religion 6+ in order to qualify for the prestige class - but as soon as Vaarsuvius got the first level of Mystic Theurge then he or she would also have the ability to cast ninth-level arcane spells, because he or she would then be able to cast Arcane spells as though they were a 17th-level Wizard.

Anyways, even if becoming a Mystic Theurge did mean that Vaarsuvius had to forego 9th-level Arcane spells, I agree with TheMiningDwarf - foregoing 9th-level Arcane spells is a mark of something, but not necessarily of meaningful character growth. It'd indicate that Vaarsuvius no longer felt that arcane power was the only thing worth pursuing, but whether that change was because Vaarsuvius now felt that other types of power were equally worth pursuing or that Vaarsuvius no longer felt arcane power was worth pursuing or something else is not clear, in a completely-hypothetical scenario with no detail provided on why Vaarsuvius made the choices necessary to become a Mystic Theurge or how they used the abilities they would obtain in doing so.

[wumpus]

She doesnt really have enough levels left at this point for much more than a 2 level dip. And first level divine spells instead of 9th level arcane? I would reach into the comic and smack her.

Did you smack V for being a blaster optimized arcane? Does V change out spells enough that (assuming different base stats) a sorcerer wouldn't work better?

There's also the issue that The Giant has to go out of his way to nerf V. Using this class trap would give V the option of "ultimate magical power" while avoiding 9th level spells. Still, having your "primary class" suddenly stop (they are at least 15th level by now) and having to go back to wizard puts a damper on claims of being a "tier 1 class".

I think it is a dumb idea. Ultimate Arcane power was V's original driving goal and Mystic Theurge is obviously not going to supply that in the way V wants. Solving the "nerf V for any real fight" problem has to be done in a way that doesn't involve V avoiding ultimate power (at least before the familicide).

[woweedd]

OK, people. Don't argue with Zimmer. Dude hates both V and arcane magic in general.

[Kish]

Did you smack V for being a blaster optimized arcane?

Lots of people have. Others have simply refused to take it in, saying that it's puzzling that Vaarsuvius didn't specialize in Transmutation or Conjuration because their personality type is about changing the course of a battle by removing their foes' ability to fight (and not, as would have been accurate, by reducing their foes to ash). It's bizarre how persistent the "optimization is obligatory" school of thought is.

[The Pilgrim]

Why would V need to be a Mystic Theurge when she is close to being able to cast 9th level arcane Spells? Wish can replicate a lot of divine spells, and can definitely replicate Resurrection. And even if she could just resurrect one person a day, she can still resurrect 365 people a year and, being an Elf, she may probably resurrect everybody she killed with Familicide long before her lifespan expires. And if she makes it to Epic Wizard she can, like, create Seven Magical Dragon Balls, gather them and resurrect everyone killed by Familicide at once.

[Vinyadan]

Why would V need to be a Mystic Theurge when she is close to being able to cast 9th level arcane Spells? Wish can replicate a lot of divine spells, and can definitely replicate Resurrection. And even if she could just resurrect one person a day, she can still resurrect 365 people a year and, being an Elf, she may probably resurrect everybody she killed with Familicide long before her lifespan expires. And if she makes it to Epic Wizard she can, like, create Seven Magical Dragon Balls, gather them and resurrect everyone killed by Familicide at once.

Can you do that with normal Dragon Balls? Or do you need the large ones?

[The Pilgrim]

The normal set, the namekian version grants three wishes but do not allow mass resurrection.

[snowblizz]

Don't you think V has collected enough dragon balls just casting Familicide the first time. Without going out of their way to collect more?

[The Pilgrim]

But those were Black Dragons. The ones that grant wishes are either from Golden Dragons (by the color of the Balls) or Green Dragons (by the color of the Dragon invoked).

[woweedd]

Why would V need to be a Mystic Theurge when she is close to being able to cast 9th level arcane Spells? Wish can replicate a lot of divine spells, and can definitely replicate Resurrection. And even if she could just resurrect one person a day, she can still resurrect 365 people a year and, being an Elf, she may probably resurrect everybody she killed with Familicide long before her lifespan expires. And if she makes it to Epic Wizard she can, like, create Seven Magical Dragon Balls, gather them and resurrect everyone killed by Familicide at once.
Um...That'd take a ****ton of XP and a lot of diamonds.

[The Pilgrim]

A lot of diamonds? Nope. Resurrection doesn't costs more than 10.000gp in Diamonds, so the cost is covered by Wish.

A lot of XP? Sure. But nobody said that redemption and restitution were cheap.

[woweedd]

A lot of diamonds? Nope. Resurrection doesn't costs more than 10.000gp in Diamonds, so the cost is covered by Wish.

A lot of XP? Sure. But nobody said that redemption and restitution were cheap.
True, but, if they're gonna pull that, they'd swiftly become unable to cats Wish. It'd be simpler, and more efficient, to wait until Epic Level and then MAKE a spell to resurrect their victim, spending a lot of XP to do it, but all at once.

[The Pilgrim]

Not that many XP. She only needs to single-handely kill a monster of the same CR of her level a day to cover the expense.

But yes, if I were her, I would wait until I get well into Epicness and I could create a reverse Familicide spell.

V being an elf and a wizard, she has the knowledge and life span to actually make it.

[The MunchKING]

Don't you need Knowledge: Religion to be able to use the Life Seed? And V does not seem to have optimized for learning Religion and how Divine Magic works.

[Kish]

All Knowledge skills are class skills for a wizard. If Vaarsuvius decides to start working toward using the Life Seed, they can gain (Int bonus + 2) ranks of Knowledge: Religion or Nature per level.

[The MunchKING]

All Knowledge skills are class skills for a wizard. If Vaarsuvius decides to start working toward using the Life Seed, they can gain (Int bonus + 2) ranks of Knowledge: Religion or Nature per level.

Yes, but you would need a truly MASSIVE amount of skill points per level to go from "None" to "Over 24" in three-four levels. (8 to 6 that you're not using for all your other skills, and if you want Epic Magic, both Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana has to be maxed too.)

[Morty]

I don't think the current conflict is likely to convince V, or any other member of the Order besides Durkon, to embrace religion.

[The Pilgrim]

Yes, but you would need a truly MASSIVE amount of skill points per level to go from "None" to "Over 24" in three-four levels. (8 to 6 that you're not using for all your other skills, and if you want Epic Magic, both Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana has to be maxed too.)

Do you happer to have a link to those rules? Because according to SRD, if I have understood it, those 24 ranks in Religion are only required if you pretend to imbue Life into something that never had life before. But are not required if your intention is to restore life on what once had it.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/life.htm

And even then, the requeriment is either Arcana, Nature or Religion. V likely has Arcana covered.

[Kish]

Last paragraph here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#epicSpellDevelopment). Though, again, 24 ranks in Knowledge (Nature or Religion) is by far the easiest of the prerequisites Vaarsuvius would need to meet before casting an epic spell to resurrect all the victims of Familicide.

[hamishspence]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#epicSpellDevelopment
Spells containing the life or heal seed are typically only available to those with 24 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm
An epic spell developed by an arcane spellcaster is arcane, and an epic spell developed by a divine spellcaster is divine. A character who can cast both divine and arcane epic spells chooses whether a particular spell he or she develops will be arcane or divine. If that same caster uses the heal or life seed in an epic spell, that spell is always considered divine.

Plus, the heal and life seeds come with Divine Focus as a component - which may imply that they are designed to be taken only by divine casters.

Psionicists get access to them (I'd guess, replacing Knowledge (nature/religion) with Knowledge (psionics) as a prerequisite, and removing the Divine Focus requirement) but the DCs are much higher.

[The Pilgrim]

It says that spells containing that seed "typically" need that requeriment (religion or nature). However in the description of the Life Seed (link provided in my former post) it only marks that requeriment (also introducing Arcana as alternative) for imbuding life into a normally inanimate object, but not for restoring life.

[Kish]

If the heal and life seeds were supposed to be restricted to divine casters, it would say it, not imply it, and especially not outline a set of circumstances that goes:
1) Arcane caster develops epic spell: spell is arcane.
2) Divine caster develops epic spell: spell is divine.
3) Arcane/divine caster develops epic spell: spell can be either, unless it has the heal or life seed, in which case it can only be divine.

When a spell that has both arcane and divine versions lists DF as a component, just like that, it means a divine caster needs a divine focus and that an arcane caster doesn't--not that the spell can't actually be cast by arcane casters.

[hamishspence]

When a spell that has both arcane and divine versions lists DF as a component, just like that, it means a divine caster needs a divine focus and that an arcane caster doesn't--not that the spell can't actually be cast by arcane casters.

It's worth noting that those two seeds appear to be the only ones listing it.

Combining Components and Casting Times
Almost every epic spell has verbal and somatic components and a 1-minute casting time, regardless of the number of epic seeds combined. The only exceptions are epic spells with the heal and life seeds, which have divine focus components.

No "unless they're cast by arcane casters" there.

[Kish]

I'm always much more concerned with RAI than with RAW. I think the idea that it was ever intended that arcane casters would be unable to use those seeds is extremely implausible and, thus, that some of the written words imply that doesn't matter. That's just my opinion. I will add that, if Rich wants Vaarsuvius to develop an epic spell to reverse Familicide, I do not believe "I can't have them do that, they're a wizard, not a divine caster" will figure into his writing process.

(I also think he probably won't, because from a non-D&D perspective, the atrocity Vaarsuvius committed strikes me as something that everyone who survived it has to live with having been done, not something that gets undone.)

[The Pilgrim]

Well, I do not see V reversing Familicide as something that will be shown on the current story. It would downplay the effect of that atrocity too much. (Like how mass murder and destruction was trivialized in Dragon Ball because at the end of the story arc the heroes would just invoke the Dragon and restore everything to the status quo previous to the apparition of the omnicidal all-powerfull monster of the saga).

But I can see that the epiloge may show V devoting her considerable arcane powers to making restitution and reversing the damage done, with her arcane research not devoted to adquiring ultimate arcane power but to devote it to help her victims.

Assuming she survives the Plot, of course.

[factotum]

I'm always much more concerned with RAI than with RAW. I think the idea that it was ever intended that arcane casters would be unable to use those seeds is extremely implausible and, thus, that some of the written words imply that doesn't matter.

I would see that rather differently? If there was not intended to be a difference in the usage of those seeds then they wouldn't have added *any* text to them implying that, however unclear it may be.

[woweedd]

I'm always much more concerned with RAI than with RAW. I think the idea that it was ever intended that arcane casters would be unable to use those seeds is extremely implausible and, thus, that some of the written words imply that doesn't matter. That's just my opinion. I will add that, if Rich wants Vaarsuvius to develop an epic spell to reverse Familicide, I do not believe "I can't have them do that, they're a wizard, not a divine caster" will figure into his writing process.

(I also think he probably won't, because from a non-D&D perspective, the atrocity Vaarsuvius committed strikes me as something that everyone who survived it has to live with having been done, not something that gets undone.)
Personally, I think they will undo it, but, to bring down the Spellcraft DC, they're forced to give up all their Wizard power, maybe even their life, to do so. I find something appropriate in the idea of V giving up their vaunted arcane power to make things right.

[Kish]

I would see that rather differently? If there was not intended to be a difference in the usage of those seeds then they wouldn't have added *any* text to them implying that, however unclear it may be.
Either you're implying that the only two options are "no difference" and "life and heal are for divine casters only," or I don't know why you're presenting yourself as disagreeing with me.

Personally, I think they will undo it, but, to bring down the Spellcraft DC, they're forced to give up all their Wizard power, maybe even their life, to do so. I find something appropriate in the idea of V giving up their vaunted arcane power to make things right.
I hope you're right.

[hamishspence]

In Lost Empires of Faerun, one of the epic mitigating factors for a spell is "You die" (-50 to DC).

And in D&D fiction, it's not unheard of for powerful elven mages to power a spell with their own death. The creator of the artifacts known as moonblades, used his own death to grant the moonblades their basic "choose worthy bearer" power.

[Castamir]

In Lost Empires of Faerun, one of the epic mitigating factors for a spell is "You die" (-50 to DC).Ie, a roundabout way to say "25000 gp". :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Ie, a roundabout way to say "25000 gp". :smallbiggrin:

To be more exact "Caster dies (no resurrection possible)".

[The Pilgrim]

Yep. Because, you know, "Caster Dies, gets raised next round by his cleric buddy" lacks the same dramatic punch.

[Psyren]

For V, I think that recognizing divine magic to be actual magic would be character growth :smalltongue:

As for becoming a Mystic Theurge, I think retraining is the only realistic way for that to make sense mechanically, but that also runs into the narrative problem of having to grind the story to a halt to explain what retraining is, what the rules are, and how V would go about unlearning some wizardry to pick up divine casting. You'd also have to explain how to become a MT in the first place; we glossed that over with Tsukiko since it happened before the story began, but we wouldn't be able to get away with that with V, we'd need at least a training montage.

You'd also have to explain why; certainly V's undergone sufficient trauma to make a radical change justifiable, but you'd need a little bit more than that I think. Why become a MT instead of, well, anything else?

[Synesthesy]

I'm always much more concerned with RAI than with RAW. I

Sorry, can you please explain to a non english d&d player what rai is? :-)

[factotum]

As for becoming a Mystic Theurge, I think retraining is the only realistic way for that to make sense mechanically, but that also runs into the narrative problem of having to grind the story to a halt to explain what retraining is, what the rules are, and how V would go about unlearning some wizardry to pick up divine casting.

Why? I don't see the logic that someone has to "unlearn" something they've been doing all their adult life in order to learn something else--it's like Homer Simpson: "Every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain!". That always annoyed me about the 1ed multi-classing rules for humans, which basically said they couldn't use *any* abilities of their first class until their level in the second class exceeded the level of the first class--I mean, what the heck? Just because I start learning wizardry I forget how to channel divine magic until my wizard level exceeds my cleric level?

Anyway, in D&D 3.5, learning a new class works exactly as you'd expect--you keep all your old class abilities and just start getting new ones from the new class as you gain levels in it. So, when I start as wizard 16 and start learning to be a cleric, I gain level 1 cleric abilities but can still cast level 8 arcane magic.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's bizarre how persistent the "optimization is obligatory" school of thought is. It's D&D 3.5e. About standard.
A lot of XP? Sure. But nobody said that redemption and restitution were cheap. Indeed, and V has "on screen" acknowledged a debt ...

V being an elf and a wizard, she has the knowledge and life span to actually make it. Which means that there may be hope, but also that it may go beyond the bounds of the seven book story arc ...
I don't think the current conflict is likely to convince V, or any other member of the Order besides Durkon, to embrace religion. Respectfully disagree. Elan will be moved to dedicate the rest of his life to promote Banjo to godhood, because "Hey, why not one more clown in the circus?"

Last paragraph here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#epicSpellDevelopment). Though, again, 24 ranks in Knowledge (Nature or Religion) is by far the easiest of the prerequisites Vaarsuvius would need to meet before casting an epic spell to resurrect all the victims of Familicide. And maybe it's V's next goal.

And in D&D fiction, it's not unheard of for powerful elven mages to power a spell with their own death. The creator of the artifacts known as moonblades, used his own death to grant the moonblades their basic "choose worthy bearer" power. Ah, I'd forgotten that, good call.


Sorry, can you please explain to a non english d&d player what rai is? :-) Rules as Intended, versus RAW which is Rules as Written. *let the arguments now begin*

[The Pilgrim]

Why? I don't see the logic that someone has to "unlearn" something they've been doing all their adult life in order to learn something else--it's like Homer Simpson: "Every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain!". That always annoyed me about the 1ed multi-classing rules for humans, which basically said they couldn't use *any* abilities of their first class until their level in the second class exceeded the level of the first class--I mean, what the heck? Just because I start learning wizardry I forget how to channel divine magic until my wizard level exceeds my cleric level?

If my memory serves, you could use your former class. But you would receive no experience from the combat. Which made some sense because if you are learning to be a wizard, impaling goblins with your sword as you did as a fighter won't help you learn more about being a wizard.

[Kish]

It's D&D 3.5e. About standard.
Ha. You should try looking at the 5ed forum here sometime.

Sorry, can you please explain to a non english d&d player what rai is? :-)
Rules as Intended, in which drowning is unambiguously bad, as opposed to Rules as Written, in which beginning to drown brings you to 0 hit points because the writers didn't consider the possibility of someone who was already dying starting to drown, and thus you can heal and stabilize a companion who's at -9 hit points by sticking their head in a bucket.

[The MunchKING]

Why? I don't see the logic that someone has to "unlearn" something they've been doing all their adult life in order to learn something else--

Anyway, in D&D 3.5, learning a new class works exactly as you'd expect--you keep all your old class abilities and just start getting new ones from the new class as you gain levels in it. So, when I start as wizard 16 and start learning to be a cleric, I gain level 1 cleric abilities but can still cast level 8 arcane magic.

I thought the point of the previous one was it would only make sense if V gave up most of her wizard levels for Mystic There levels (A process in the Advanced Player's Guide, IIRC) otherwise she's not really a Mystic There (or only gets 1 level), just a low level Cleric/Wizard.

[zimmerwald1915]

I thought the point of the previous one was it would only make sense if V gave up most of her wizard levels for Mystic There levels (A process in the Advanced Player's Guide, IIRC) otherwise she's not really a Mystic There (or only gets 1 level), just a low level Cleric/Wizard.
There is no level cap in 3.5. Given enough time and XP, Vaarsuvius could gain 10 levels in, say, Archivist and 10 levels in Mystic Theurge if she wanted to.

Not that there is enough time and XP left in the story of The Order of the Stick to actually show that happening.

[KorvinStarmast]

Ha. You should try looking at the 5ed forum here sometime. Given that I have been participating for over three years on that very forum, que?

Rules as Intended, in which drowning is unambiguously bad, as opposed to Rules as Written, in which beginning to drown brings you to 0 hit points because the writers didn't consider the possibility of someone who was already dying starting to drown, and thus you can heal and stabilize a companion who's at -9 hit points by sticking their head in a bucket. Alternative medicine gets an unfairly bad rap. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Why? I don't see the logic that someone has to "unlearn" something they've been doing all their adult life in order to learn something else--it's like Homer Simpson: "Every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain!". That always annoyed me about the 1ed multi-classing rules for humans, which basically said they couldn't use *any* abilities of their first class until their level in the second class exceeded the level of the first class--I mean, what the heck? Just because I start learning wizardry I forget how to channel divine magic until my wizard level exceeds my cleric level?

Anyway, in D&D 3.5, learning a new class works exactly as you'd expect--you keep all your old class abilities and just start getting new ones from the new class as you gain levels in it. So, when I start as wizard 16 and start learning to be a cleric, I gain level 1 cleric abilities but can still cast level 8 arcane magic.

It's definitely a game balance thing moreso than a realism thing. If you think about it, an elf's insane lifespan means they should all be running around with uber-powerful tristalt builds. But D&D settings tend not to do that, because it would make elves untenably more powerful than other races, especially humans.

For this particular instance however, it doesn't matter, because OotS is a world whose very physics are based on gamist design principles (D&D 3.5 ones specifically). It's why Haley for example can get better at picking locks just by fighting monsters, or why she can find currency and potions in her guild's shower mold. Similarly, it explains why an epic character (like Xykon) would find it next to impossible to learn even the most rudimentary aspects of a brand new discipline, like becoming a level 1 Fighter or Cleric - he physically couldn't do that without first getting a truckload of XP, which in turn likely means fighting something that could probably lay waste to an entire village, despite having all of eternity to learn such basics. So the fact that you need room in your "build" in order to be a theurge regardless of your lifespan wouldn't make sense in our world doesn't matter, because it makes sense in theirs. Make sense?

[dps]

I think he already worships some elven god of magic. I don't recall the words, but I believe it came up in the very early strips when Elan wanted to convert him to Banjo.

It was the elven god of knowledge.