Setting spell DC with Charisma

[Endril]

To be more specific, I'm talking about setting the DC for all spells with Charisma, even when the players don't want to. This would help balance the stronger classes like Cleric/Druid/Wizard by making them MAD.

My two questions are:
1) Would this make those classes tier 2-3?
2) Would this make the game less enjoyable for the players of those classes? I know it's subjective, but I'd like to hear some opinions on it.

[OgresAreCute]

I'd say
1) No
2) Yes

You'd need to severely limit access to spells to drop someone from tier 1 to 2 (compare Wizard and Sorcerer). Having slightly lower DCs doesn't really matter that much, since lots of spells are buffs or summons that don't use it at all (Haste, Polymorph, Summon Monster, SNA, etc) or ray attacks that use an attack roll instead of a save, etc. It is annoying for the players though, personally I really dislike split stat casting. Just a small debuff and minor annoyance to keep track off that doesn't really add much of value.

[Mike Miller]

I'd say
1) No
2) Yes

You'd need to severely limit access to spells to drop someone from tier 1 to 2 (compare Wizard and Sorcerer). Having slightly lower DCs doesn't really matter that much, since lots of spells are buffs or summons that don't use it at all (Haste, Polymorph, Summon Monster, SNA, etc) or ray attacks that use an attack roll instead of a save, etc. It is annoying for the players though, personally I really dislike split stat casting. Just a small debuff and minor annoyance to keep track off that doesn't really add much of value.

I agree with this. If you want to weaken tier 1 classes, changing DC stat reqs isn't going to do it.

[AvatarVecna]

Tier 1 classes aren't T1 because they have high save DCs. In fact, most of the common T1 tactics involve things that don't allow saves at all, or try to minimize how much a good save bonus can actually matter. What makes a class Tier 1 is being able to always answer "yes" to the questions "does your class have a way to deal with {situation}?" and "could you personally be capable of that solution in a short period of time?", regardless of how circumstantial the situation in question is. A well-built fighter can solve any problem involving hitting it really hard with a stick, but when violence isn't a solution, the fighter is kinda boned. A well-built rogue can solve most any problem relating to combat or a skill check, but when something is beyond the ability of skills to contribute, they're equally boned. But magic is always relevant somehow.

The fact that you have removed a small portion of the combat-only toys out of the toybox doesn't change that the T1 casters get an extradimensional toybox instead of just a foam sword and a nerf gun.

Race: Venerable Necropolitan Fire Elf
Class: Wizard 20 (elf wizard racial substitution levels 1 and 3, Spontaneous Divination 5)
Attributes (lvl 20, no items): 9/10/-/28/18/9
Attributes (post-items): 9/10/
Familiar: Hummingbird (+8 to Init)

Skills:
Concentration: 23 (+38)
Knowledge (Arcana): 23 (+41)
Knowledge (A&E): 9 (+23)
Knowledge (Dungeoneering): 23 (+37)
Knowledge (Geography): 9 (+23)
Knowledge (History): 9 (+23)
Knowledge (Local): 23 (+37)
Knowledge (Nature): 23 (+37)
Knowledge (Religion): 23 (+37)
Knowledge (The Planes): 23 (+37)
Spellcraft: 23 (+54)


Feats:
HD 1: Collegiate Wizard
Flaw (Feeble): Aerenal Arcanist
Flaw (Frail): Improved Initiative
Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll
HD 3: Knowledge Devotion
HD 6: Spell Mastery
HD 9: Uncanny Forethought
Wizard 10: Miser With Magic
HD 12: Extraordinary Spell Aim
HD 15: Extend Spell
Wizard 15: Quicken Spell
HD 18: Sanctum Spell
Wizard 20: Spell Mastery


Items (13600):
Arms (2000): Bracers of the Entangling Blast
Body (5000): Ghost Shroud
Face (36000): Headband of Intellect +6
Head (15000): Circlet of Rapid Casting
Hands (36000): Gloves of Dexterity +6
Neck (8000): Hand Of Glory
Ring (20000): Ring of Arcane Might
Ring (40000): Ring of Freedom Of Movement
Ring (45000): Ring of Skilled Casting
Concentration +15 (competence)
Spellcraft +15 (competence)
Shoulders (16000): War Wizard Cloak
Torso (200000): Vest of the Archmagi
Waist (12000): Belt of Battle
Weapon (36600): Quarterstaff (+1 Eager Spellstrike/+1 Warning Defending)
Other (2000): Handy Haversack
Other (30000): Orange Ioun Stone
Other (1800): Efficient Quiver
Other (10000): Graft (Feathered Wings)
Other (35000): Lesser Metamagic Rod of Quicken
Other (12500): Blessed Book
Other (110000): Tome Clear Thought +4
Other (6000): (16) lvl 0 Wand (dealer's choice)
Other (6000): (8) lvl 1 Wand (dealer's choice)
Other (18000): (4) lvl 2 Wand (dealer's choice)
Other (22500): (2) lvl 3 Wand (dealer's choice)
Other (21000): (1) lvl 4 Wand (dealer's choice)



0th lvl Spells (all 41)
1st lvl Spells (17):
Alarm
Endure Elements
Enlarge Person
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall
Grease
Hail of Stone
Identify
Lesser Acid Orb
Lesser Cold Orb
Lesser Elecricity Orb
Lesser Fire Orb
Locate City
Mount
Power Word Pain
Protection From Evil
Scholar's Touch

2nd lvl Spells (12):
Detect Thoughts
Glitterdust
Gust Of Wind
Knock
Lesser Celerity
Locate Object
Protection from Arrows
Resist Energy
Rope Trick
Spider Climb
Web
Wings of Cover

3rd lvl Spells (12):
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Dispel Magic
Fly
Greater Magic Weapon
Haste
Heart of Water
Nondetection
Sleet Storm
Stinking Cloud
Tongues
Water Breathing
Wind Wall

4th lvl Spells (11):
Arcane Eye
Assay Spell Resistance
Celerity
Dimensional Anchor
Dimension Door
Locate Creature
Polymorph
Resilient Sphere
Scrying
Secure Shelter
Stone Shape

5th lvl Spells (11):
Cloudkill
Contact Other Plane
Lesser Planar Binding
Major Creation
Overland Flight
Permanency
Telekinesis
Telepathic Bond
Teleport
Wall Of Force
Wall Of Stone

6th lvl Spells (11):
Antimagic Field
Contingency
Greater Anticipate Teleporation
Greater Dispel Magic
Greater Heroism
Kyristan's Malevolent Tentacles
Move Earth
Planar Binding
Starmantle
Tactical Teleportation
True Seeing

7th lvl Spells (11):
Ability Rip
Avasculate
Control Weather
Energy Immunity
Forcecage
Greater Scrying
Greater Teleport
Limited Wish
Magnificent Mansion
Planar Bubble
Plane Shift

8th lvl Spells (11):
Dimensional Lock
Discern Location
Embrace The Dark Chaos
Greater Celerity
Greater Planar Binding
Greater Plane Shift
Greater Prying Eyes
Mind Blank
Polymorph Any Object
Shun The Dark Chaos
Spell Engine

9th lvl Spells (11):
Astral Projection
Disjunction
Foresight
Gate
Hindsight
Magic Miasma
Shapechange
Summon Monster IX
Towering Thunderhead
Time Stop
Wish

[Lotheb]

Archivists are solidly tier 1 despite having a split casting stat (Int for DC, Wis for bonus spells) because they have good access (prepared casting, decent spells known, can increase spells known with time and money) to an excellent spell list (all divine) while sorcerers are tier 2 because they have ok access (spontaneous casting, but very few spells know) to an excellent spell list (sorcerer/wizard, plus a few exclusive spells) even though they have a single casting stat

[Endril]

Thank you for the responses. I think we can all agree that's a bad idea. So far, I've favored house rules that lift everyone else up rather than trying to weaken certain classes. For example, I've considered giving each character spells from a domain of their choice, and allowing a move as part of a full attack.

[AvatarVecna]

Thank you for the responses. I think we can all agree that's a bad idea. So far, I've favored house rules that lift everyone else up rather than trying to weaken certain classes. For example, I've considered giving each character spells from a domain of their choice, and allowing a move as part of a full attack.

For all the classes, there are two issues that need to be dealt with: their optimization floor (how poorly you can do with them short of actually trying to be bad) and their optimization ceiling (how great you can be with them). Let's also set this on a 1-10 scale - well, the way I'm using it, it's more of a parabolic scale, where a score of X is one-quarter as good as a score of 2X, but this is much easier to show visually. "<" is the floor, ">" is the ceiling, and "A" is the average.



Class
1 (1)
2 (4)
3 (9)
4 (16)
5 (25)
6 (36)
7 (49)
8 (64)
9 (81)
10 (100)


Barbarian


<----
-----A-
-------
---->






Bard

<----
------
-------
-A-----
-------
----->





Cleric


<----
-------
------A
-------
-------
-------
-------
-------->


Druid



<-----
-------
-A-----
-------
-------
-------
-------->


Fighter


<----
-A----
-------
---->






Monk

<----
-A---
-------
-------
-->






Paladin


<----
-------
-A-----
-------
----->





Ranger


<----
-------
-A-----
-------
----->





Rogue


<----
-------
-A-----
-------
----->





Sorcerer
<----
------
------
-------
---A---
-------
-------
-------
----->



Wizard
<----
------
------
-------
------A
-------
-------
-------
-------
-------->



So, keeping in mind that this chart is very basic, simplifying everything down to a single line when something like the Niche Ranking System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System) is much better for explaining this issue, there are problems with just making increases to some classes. For starters, the worst monk ever is still gonna be better than the worst wizard, purely by virtue of a much better chassis, but that trend is by no means a reflection of how the average/best wizard compares to the average/best monk. But it's not just about how two classes compare to each other, but how all of them balance against all the others:

Barbarian and Fighter are roughly equal, with the monk lagging a bit behind in general. Paladin/Ranger/Rogue are more or less the same in terms of floor/average/ceiling, and bard only has a slightly lower floor. Meanwhile, clerics/druids/sorcerers/wizards are playing an entirely different game where you can play at more or less whatever score you want to. But as soon as two of these groups interact, you immediately run into problems. Boosting the classes with lower ceilings can help but it doesn't change where everybody's floors are, and it doesn't change where everybody's averages are. The fact is that half of the base classes make multiple choices from thousands of options every level, or even every day and the rest...barely get one a level, besides skill points. Yippee. And making changes that affect both floors and ceilings to the point where everything's a lot more viable outside of edge cases can be rough.

Pathfinder does good work balancing out the classes - several classes get a "every two levels pick a power from this big list of possible powers", they give more HD-based feats, they've revamped the skill system in a number of simple but awesome ways, they have the archetype system (essentially ACFs that can be explicitly combined under the rules and are designed with unique abilities around interesting themes). A lot of broken spells have been revamped, cutting down the caster class' ceilings a bit, and a lot of classes have optional access to spellcasting in some fashion. They've cut down on the reasons to multiclass or PrC out, including for casters. Overall, the system is much better about balancing things without losing the fun of optimization - casters and noncasters are by no means completely competitive now, but it's more of a question in PF. If you're looking for ways to revamp 3.5 rather than just playing Pathfinder, I'd recommend checking out the PF skill system anyway and seeing if it suits you.

For other suggestions that aren't "play Pathfinder and port over 3.5 content that isn't broken", I would suggest increasing the number of feats non-casters get more or less across the board (not necessarily the same number of bonus feats per noncaster class, but rather an appropriate number of bonus feats given their tier/performance), and giving them some ability to retrain feats in a reasonable timeframe. Give monk full BAB, give everyone the ability to move+full attack, and...hrm...give two attribute bumps per four levels, but they can't both be the same stat. That'll help out MAD classes slightly more - not a huge difference, but worthwhile.

[ExLibrisMortis]

For other suggestions that aren't "play Pathfinder and port over 3.5 content that isn't broken" [...]
An excellent writeup!

To add to the list of suggestions, I have to recommend the obvious: give everyone spellcasting. It's the solution that looks at the fact that casters rule D&D 3.5 and says "that's okay". Which may be entirely the wrong thing for you, but it works.

When adding casting to your traditional noncasters, you probably want to go focused, but deep, using lower-levelled spell slots and spells listed at lower levels, but at full caster level--like the bard, essentially--along with the ability to interact with magic in general (detect magic, dispel magic) and at least one wide-open game breaker (polymorph, planar binding, summon monster, simulacrum, magic jar, dominate monster--lots of options).

[Cosi]

Why would you do this rather than giving some goodies to other classes? Nerfing things makes the game less fun. Buffing things makes the game more fun. Instead of asking "how do I bring the Wizard down", you should be asking "how do I lift the Fighter up".

[Endril]

For all the classes, there are two issues that need to be dealt with: their optimization floor ... and their optimization ceiling

This is also something I've thought of, but I haven't had it explained quite so well. I'd like everyone's floor to be enough for them to feel relevant, even when some players optimize and they don't, but I realize that there's some tweeking I might have to do to achieve that. The house rules would be there more to reduce the work done case-by-case rather than eliminate it entirely. I do like the PF system, but in addition to having like 30 3.5 books and friends that still play 3.5, there's still something about playing 3.5 that keeps me more interested that I can't quite put my finger on. And if I were to switch, I'd have to decide between PF and 5e.


I would suggest increasing the number of feats non-casters get more or less across the board

This was my first idea, with tier 5-6 getting extra feats every 3 levels and tier 3-4 getting every 4 levels, and I actually discussed it in these forums. What I like about more global changes (spells for everyone, moves with full attacks) is that I don't have to make a list of all the classes with who gets what feats, and I don't have to consider prestige classes.


Give monk full BAB, give everyone the ability to move+full attack, and...hrm...give two attribute bumps per four levels

I was actually thinking about doing exactly this, minus the extra attributes, but it's something to consider. I was also going to give soulknife full BAB. That class looks like it could use some love.


To add to the list of suggestions, I have to recommend the obvious: give everyone spellcasting. It's the solution that looks at the fact that casters rule D&D 3.5 and says "that's okay". Which may be entirely the wrong thing for you, but it works.

Nope, not wrong at all. I had thought about lower level spells like you mentioned, but my current thought is they choose a domain and get the spells from that. Each spell, up to half their level in spell level, once per day. It actually kinda fits with my campaign world, since it's tied to the outer planes and used to be overrun with outsiders.

[Endril]

Why would you do this rather than giving some goodies to other classes? Nerfing things makes the game less fun. Buffing things makes the game more fun. Instead of asking "how do I bring the Wizard down", you should be asking "how do I lift the Fighter up".

TBH, I wasn't sold on doing this, and was putting it out here to see the reception it would have. And I don't think there's any amount of lifting I can do for the non-casters to keep them from being over-powered by casters with full progression, although a few good house rules might get me close.

[Cosi]

TBH, I wasn't sold on doing this, and was putting it out here to see the reception it would have. And I don't think there's any amount of lifting I can do for the non-casters to keep them from being over-powered by casters with full progression, although a few good house rules might get me close.

You don't necessarily need to keep them from being overpowered, you just need to ensure that they're relevant. A Sorcerer is less powerful than a Wizard, but not to the degree that anyone is concerned about them pulling their weight.