(3.5) gestalt compatibility with standard characters

[cecil1994]

Weird hypothetical that's been weirdly persistent in bugging me. What level gestalt is comparable to, say, a level 8 single-tracked character? Is there a formula? Would allowing players to pick between 6//6 or 9, to throw some numbers out, be balanced? I like the idea of specialists, but I can't help but think Wizard 12 can't compare to Wizard 8//Factotum 8.

[zlefin]

generally speaking a gestalt char is worth +1, sometimes +2 to the level, depending on the circumstance.
there's some guidelines here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm#balancingGestaltCharacters

[OgresAreCute]

Depends a lot on the specific classes. A houserule I see sometimes is allowing tier 4 classes to gestalt with tier 5 in a non-gestalt game.

[AvatarVecna]

Weird hypothetical that's been weirdly persistent in bugging me. What level gestalt is comparable to, say, a level 8 single-tracked character? Is there a formula? Would allowing players to pick between 6//6 or 9, to throw some numbers out, be balanced? I like the idea of specialists, but I can't help but think Wizard 12 can't compare to Wizard 8//Factotum 8.

It's difficult to say for a lot of reasons, but the primary reason it's difficult to say is "having a general formula like this would be build on the assumption that all classes are equal". Let us suppose that a Wizard 12 is equal to a Wizard 8//Factotum 8 - it might not be, but let's suppose that it is. Substitute out "wizard" and in "monk" for either side of that equation and we can't even pretend it makes sense anymore. Monk 12 vs Wizard 8 is already in the wizard's favor before we through Factotum on, and Wizard 12 vs Monk 8//Factotum 8 is another matchup with a clearly superior option.

[Ramza00]

If a person knows how to "build" gestalt characters and regular characters from a min max perspective than the difference is at most 2 levels.

Think of it like this. Is gestalt better having than 2 characters that are separate with their own progression and their own actions in combat?

Is Gestalt stronger than having a Cohort such as Leadership or Thrallherd? (It isn't)

With Challenge Rating having one CR monster is an encounter level equal to the CR but having two CR monsters increase the encounter level +2.

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Now if you do not know how to build a strong gestalt (to take advantage of the gestalt rules) than the difference is only +1 level.

[Kayblis]

It depends a lot on class selection.

A Wizard 12 is better than a Wizard 8//Factotum 8. The level gap is 4 levels, or 2 spell levels, and that is huge. But a Ranger 12 is not much better than a Ranger 8//Barbarian 8 or Rogue 8, because the Ranger levels net you little in comparison with 8 full levels of class features. I'd argue you shouldn't even consider it a big power-up if the second class is tier 5 or lower.

I believe full casters are better as a single class than in lower level Gestalt until later levels when lots of class features stack up and can be worth a level or two. Low tier classes benefit a lot from gestalt.

[AvatarVecna]

If a person knows how to "build" gestalt characters and regular characters from a min max perspective than the difference is at most 2 levels.

Think of it like this. Is gestalt better having than 2 characters that are separate with their own progression and their own actions in combat?

Is Gestalt stronger than having a Cohort such as Leadership or Thrallherd? (It isn't)

With Challenge Rating having one CR monster is an encounter level equal to the CR but having two CR monsters increase the encounter level +2.

------

Now if you do not know how to build a strong gestalt (to take advantage of the gestalt rules) than the difference is only +1 level.

I actually made a thread like that awhile back, which was essentially "if Gestalt was a feat, but you could only take Gestalt or Leadership, which would you take?" and the closest there was to a consensus was "Leadership is stronger, but gestalt is simpler to manage".

EDIT: Which is kinda sad, when you consider the game balance that implies. Gestalt as a feat is weaker than Leadership. That's bonkers.

[Nifft]

EDIT: Which is kinda sad, when you consider the game balance that implies. Gestalt as a feat is weaker than Leadership. That's bonkers.

Action economies gonna action economy.

[OgresAreCute]

Action economies gonna action economy.

Pretty much. Would you rather:

Cast either a 5th level arcane spell or a 5th level divine spell

OR

Cast a 5th level arcane spell and a 4th level divine spell

Pretty clear choice, if you ask me.

[cecil1994]

I actually made a thread like that awhile back, which was essentially "if Gestalt was a feat, but you could only take Gestalt or Leadership, which would you take?" and the closest there was to a consensus was "Leadership is stronger, but gestalt is simpler to manage".

EDIT: Which is kinda sad, when you consider the game balance that implies. Gestalt as a feat is weaker than Leadership. That's bonkers.

Oh, god, really? Maybe I'm holding Factotum Gestalt to an unrealistic standard. It's just so... good, you know? I understand the logic, though I would like to see an arena game built around that.


Pretty much. Would you rather:

Cast either a 5th level arcane spell or a 5th level divine spell

OR

Cast a 5th level arcane spell and a 4th level divine spell

Pretty clear choice, if you ask me.


(again, though, cunning action comes to mind) (though that requires a high feat investment if you can't end fights in a round)

[OgresAreCute]

(again, though, cunning action comes to mind) (though that requires a high feat investment if you can't end fights in a round)

I was just making a generic example of why you would pick leadership over gestalt in a situation where you can either be a 9/9 wiz/cleric or be a wizard 9 with a cleric 7 buddy. Obviously, factotum and wizard in gestalt are a bit more synergistic than cleric and wizard, at least on the surface level.

[cecil1994]

I was just making a generic example of why you would pick leadership over gestalt in a situation where you can either be a 9/9 wiz/cleric or be a wizard 9 with a cleric 7 buddy. Obviously, factotum and wizard in gestalt are a bit more synergistic than cleric and wizard, at least on the surface level.

That's fair. An Artificer would work wonders as a companion, I can cherrypick examples all day.

[AvatarVecna]

Oh, god, really? Maybe I'm holding Factotum Gestalt to an unrealistic standard. It's just so... good, you know? I understand the logic, though I would like to see an arena game built around that.

A factotum gestalt is really nice for a Wizard, because it's Int-focused, but here's what the Factotum 8 is realistically doing to the Wizard 8:
Expanding the wizard's class skills to "all the class skills"
4 extra maxed out skills worth of Skill Points
Additional +2 BAB, and an additional iterative attack when using a weapon
Additional +4 Reflex
The ability to occasionally add Int to an attack roll
The ability to occasionally add Int to a damage roll
The ability to occasionally add Int to a saving throw
The ability to add 8 to a skill check
Trapfinding
5 additional prepared spell slots of up to 3rd lvl, which can be prepared with spells not in your spellbook
Int to Str/Dex/Con checks/skills
The ability to occasionally add Int to AC/Touch AC against one opponent for one round
The ability to occasionally add 1d6 SA to an attack
{3+Wis} times per day, you can heal one person up to {16+Int} HP
The ability to rarely take an extra standard action

#s 3, 6, 9, 11, and 13 are more or less pointless for a wizard. The wizard doesn't want to play trapmonkey, so Trapfinding - even with extra class skills, extra skill points, and Cunning Brilliance - is more or less wasted. The warmage gets to add Int to damage all the time, and yet that doesn't fix blasting; maybe if you apply this to something dealing uncapped ability damage it could be nice? But otherwise, "damage +Int" or "damage +1d6" are both pretty pointless. As for the attack bonus...+2 on touch attacks is appreciated, but if you ever use that iterative in your career, you're doing something wrong. Finally, Int to Str/Dex/Con checks matters for exactly 3 things: initiative, concentration, and not falling on your face when climbing a ladder. If you are ever in a situation where a giant bonus to Climb/Balance/Jump/Tumble/Swim/etc is necessary, this won't save you, so it's just for the kind of rolls you'll take 10 on. Int to init is nice, but that's basically all that this really matters for.

Now we get into the semi-useful points: extra skills points are nice for the wizard, but they're rarely short for the skills they want anyway. Occasionally adding Int to an attack roll is nice, but wizards mostly target touch and are thus often hitting anyway; this just makes it much less of a question, and lets the wizard hit a bit above their normal level. A slight bump to AC when you find yourself cornered can save your life, but until you have it on all-day, it's not really a godsend. Finally, a very limited amount of healing is nice to have, but it's no replacement for a real healer.

Now to get to the really good abilities: occasionally adding Int to a save will save your bacon at least once a day, I'm thinking. 5 extra prepared slots up to 3rd lvl isn't the coolest, but that they can be any spell on your list gives you a great deal of flexibility. Getting UMD on your class skill list opens you up even more. Finally, anything touching the action economy is fantastic.

Meanwhile, compare this to if you chose a Cloistered Cleric gestalt with the right domains; you still get the extra skill points and UMD, you still get the healing, you get a better Fort instead of better Ref (and you can bump your Ref with the aforementioned Insightful Reflexes), and while you've lost the slightly better sor/wiz list access, you've opened up access to the entire cleric list every day, with full caster's spell slots for prepping. The biggest loss is the action economy...but if instead of gestalting, you took a cleric cohort, now you have nearly the same access to the cleric list and UMD, and you have even better action economy abuse all day, instead of just occasionally. Most of the same benefits as the factotum...but more. Or you could take a monk cohort and be way way worse than any other scenario.

I'll admit, I'd also be curious to see it tested out in a Same Game Test, or an arena scenario, but I've a feeling how it would go.

EDIT: Because let's be honest: the reason Factotum is T3 is because they do a little bit of everything, and one of the things they do is prepare very limited wizard spell slots, except with access to the whole wizard list. Sneak attack? Most of the skill list? Even action economy abuse? Nah bro, most of that doesn't matter, because at 20th lvl I get to prepare 10 wizard spell slots of up to 7th level with any wizard spell I want.

[Nifft]

Oh, god, really? Maybe I'm holding Factotum Gestalt to an unrealistic standard. It's just so... good, you know? I understand the logic, though I would like to see an arena game built around that.

Compared to what a Warblade Gestalt gives you, or the services a Crusader Cohort can provide, the Factotum is kinda trash.

Warblade Gestalt: instead of sometimes adding Int to your saves, roll Concentration instead of a saving throw, which means you don't auto-fail on a natural 1. Also on all Reflex saves (if you even make one), on critical hit confirmation rolls, on all damage rolls vs. flat-footed opponents, on opposed ability checks vs. grapple / trip / disarm / etc., and on AoO attack & damage rolls -- hopefully you'll never get to exercise the last one, but the others are on par with what a Factotum gives you, and you get these benefits constantly. Plus maneuvers and stances, and d12 HD, and a good Fort save, and full BAB...

Crusader Cohort: White Raven Tactics multiple times per encounter, breaking the action economy harder, and starting at level 5. Plus the cohort can heal you while face-stabbing your enemies, and turning into difficult terrain such that they can't get in your face.

[Ramza00]

But why is Crusader / Wizard Gestalt good / better than Crusader Cohort with Wizard main?

Warblade / Wizard Gestalt has action economy problems. Remember it is an immediate action to use those concentration instead of will save effects. Furthermore while it is "wealth" (4,000 gp) if I recall Headband of Conscious Effort does not take one of your immediate actions. It is once a day but you can always do multiples of this item.

[Nifft]

Crusader Cohort: White Raven Tactics


But why is Crusader / Wizard Gestalt good / better than Crusader Cohort with Wizard main? Because a reasonable DM may not allow you to apply WRT to yourself.

Also, as mentioned above, because having a BSF who can heal you while face-stabbing your enemies is good, but face-stabbing your enemies yourself is bad.


Warblade / Wizard Gestalt has action economy problems. Remember it is an immediate action to use those concentration instead of will save effects. Furthermore while it is "wealth" (4,000 gp) if I recall Headband of Conscious Effort does not take one of your immediate actions. It is once a day but you can always do multiples of this item.

A Belt of Battle replicates the main "good" thing the Factotum gets, and of course you could buy multiples of this item.

So what? Do you think that one item somehow refutes or negates the Factotum's major class feature?

[ManicOppressive]

One instance of gestalting being very powerful is the involvement of Psionics. Because of Synchronicity/Schism/Temporal Acceleration, Psionics is pretty much unmatched in action-economy. Combining that with arcane or divine casting can be really, really nasty, and easily worth a +3-6 in the level department.

Otherwise, yeah, you mostly run into having too many things to do with not enough actions. If you ever want to see a DM cry, introduce this to their Gestalt game:

Wizard 10/Swiftblade 10//Psion 14/Wizard 1/Anarchic Initiate 5 or something to that effect.

But these are both cases of extreme optimization, and all of it together still doesn't amount to much more than a non-gestalt Psion/Thrallherd could.

[Cosi]

I actually made a thread like that awhile back, which was essentially "if Gestalt was a feat, but you could only take Gestalt or Leadership, which would you take?" and the closest there was to a consensus was "Leadership is stronger, but gestalt is simpler to manage".

I think in general Leadership may be better, but for a caster (in particular a Wizard), I think Gestalt-as-a-feat clearly is because the replacement value is so much higher.

Yes, a cohort is good. But if you have animate dead, planar binding, simulacrum, dominate person, planar ally, and/or animate objects, it's pretty easy to get an equivalent value worth of minions. It's a lot harder to tune up the rest of your build in a way that compensates for not getting Gestalt.

For a Warblade or a Binder, sure, a Wizard cohort is probably better than getting a bunch of Wizard levels. But a Wizard can already break the action economy into pieces that are essentially as tiny as he wants.


Oh, god, really? Maybe I'm holding Factotum Gestalt to an unrealistic standard. It's just so... good, you know? I understand the logic, though I would like to see an arena game built around that.

I really don't think it's that good. Yes, you get some extra actions every fight. But you don't get any extra spells, and you don't really need four spells in round one to win a fight. Two, or even one, is totally sufficient and that's achievable as a caster without Factotum levels at all. You'd be better off with something like a Sorcerer gestalt, which nets you celerity for enough extra actions, plus an entire set of spellcasting. Factotum is good, but it's good for something like a Crusader that doesn't run out of resources.

Also, the Factotum is so poorly written that it's arguable whether it does anything at all. Its power is going to vary wildly based on how generous your DM is with his fixes.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Depends on the non-gestalt characters. Typically a gestalt of two Tier 4-6 classes will be fine running with Tier 3s and low Tier 2s. A pair of T3 classes can at least contribute in a party with T2s

[Luccan]

If you're Tier 4 or below, you should be fine gestalting with any other T4 or lower class (assuming all characters are at about the same level of optimization) and have the party be same level. In the same circumstances, Tier 3 should be fine gestalting with the non-casting NPCs: you can basically pick up a better BAB, more/better skills, and/or a better save, but that's it. Tier 2 and Tier 1 are so close as to not need it to compare and in fact shouldn't be allowed to gestalt unless the whole party is gestalting at least one T1 or T2 class.