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View Full Version : Dnd becoming hyper saturated and "lacking identity" alongside the rest o nerd culture



Poldron56
2018-09-01, 05:32 PM
This is the first time I write on this forum. I specifically chose Giant in the Playground and not other online platforms because most folks around are veterans and able to present a well established argument on why things are the way it is presently. The topics I would like to discuss are the changes that are occurring in terms of dnd and nerdculture itself. I donīt mean to sound agressive and hateful towards people o started the hobbie recently, hell Iīve been only playing since 2014, however along these last years Iīve been distancing from present day Dnd and being more related to older editions (3.5, 3rd and 2nd, more precisely ). Again I donīt mean to be disrespectful, but I feel that Dnd is lacking a charm that older editions naturally have. This is mostly due to the change the ocorred to nerd and geek culture that I felt made D&d, video games, comic books and other media exciting. I feel that they oversimplified the game to appeal a new wave of people that a few years back would probably disregard D&D. This doesnīt mean itīs something bad, by the contrary, the game is getting the recognition it deserves, however, the problem comes from the fact that attracted a group of people that consider it cool because nowadays "itīs cool to like and participate in RPGs". I might sound cynical given the fact Iīve only started it recently, but all my life I was judged for being a geek due to liking old video games, comic books and strategy board games. Funny enough, I liked, especially due to a fact I dealt with a minority of people that to this day we still hangout and consider them my best friends. I didnīt mind wasting afternoons playing Talisman or Heroclix, it was fun and I was spending time with people that really did get me. Nowadays forget it. Everyone belongs to the nerd and geek crew because itīs cool. Just as cool as wearing a t-shirt from a band you donīt even listen too. The same can be said about the Super Hero genre, Star Wars and alike. I started taking this matter very seriously when I was watching a video about Joe Manganiello talking about his experiences with D&D. He stated that he stopped playing D&D because during that time it was considered nerdy by society and he didnīt want to be considered that type of person, only to later resume a few years later when it was recently considered cool. I didnīt really comprehend why one would stop playing for that specific reason, but to each his own. The question I wanted to ask you guys was simply your opinion about this matter, what do you think? Whatīs your opinion about the state of D&D and the nerd and geek culture of present times? Do you think Iīm being overly critical and hypocritical. Thank you for reading my post and have stupendous day ;)

Eldest
2018-09-01, 06:06 PM
I sincerely suggest you add in some paragraph breaks.

So, to sum it up, it's popular and now that sucks? I heartily disagree. I think it's great that the hobby is reaching so many people and letting more than your stereotypical "nerds" play. More chances to meet and play with new people, see new ideas, and have an enjoyable experience, especially if some aspects of "normal" nerd culture aren't welcoming to you.

Razade
2018-09-01, 06:14 PM
Short answer: No.

Long answer: Some of the most complex, difficult video games have come out in this era. Some of the best new systems, where D&D is no longer the only game in town, have proliferated with things like Kickstarter and internet forums.

D&D isn't nerd culture. It's part of it and nerd culture never had an identity.

Honest Tiefling
2018-09-01, 06:15 PM
So, to sum it up, it's popular and now that sucks? I heartily disagree. I think it's great that the hobby is reaching so many people and letting more than your stereotypical "nerds" play. More chances to meet and play with new people, see new ideas, and have an enjoyable experience, especially if some aspects of "normal" nerd culture aren't welcoming to you.

And a bigger market can often mean more niche products, and their availability. I can find players more easily, and have better resources such as blogs and articles to help run a game. Sure, DnD lost a lot of the complexity that I think drew some people to it, but why not try out GURPS or another system?

That, and no one I have ever seen has ever identified as a 'nerd' because they liked some aspects. Has anyone actually encountered a fake nerd? I only know of people who 1) legitimately have earned the title or 2) normal people who occasionally play videogames or watch a super hero movie, but don't call themselves nerdy.

Kyrell1978
2018-09-01, 06:40 PM
I certainly believe that they have simplified D&D specifically to appeal to a new audience. I'm also glad that you found an edition that you relate to more than the current edition. I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons for 30 years or so, and have played every edition of the game from Basic up to 4th and Pathfinder. I personally have found the 3.x game to be my own personal favorite, with 2nd ed AD&D a close second so I do understand not relating to the current edition. I have seen in my life the label of geek and nerd go from a tremendous stigma to something that, while not exactly positive, has its own type of value in the social hierarchy. With all of that being said, I don't think that any of this is necessarily a bad thing. As others have pointed out, with a larger market come more opportunities for games to succeed. With less stigma come more players and thus more chances to play.

Poldron56
2018-09-01, 07:04 PM
I sincerely suggest you add in some paragraph breaks.

So, to sum it up, it's popular and now that sucks? I heartily disagree. I think it's great that the hobby is reaching so many people and letting more than your stereotypical "nerds" play. More chances to meet and play with new people, see new ideas, and have an enjoyable experience, especially if some aspects of "normal" nerd culture aren't welcoming to you.

First of all, thank you for the advice.
Second, itīs not so much sucking because of itīs popularity, itīs more on the line that I think that some people only appreciate it because itīs cool now. If the same issue would be presented 20 years ago, those same people wouldnīt be interested in the game.
There is also the problem of the simplification of the system, but thatīs more personal opinion.

Kyrell1978
2018-09-01, 07:11 PM
First of all, thank you for the advice.
Second, itīs not so much sucking because of itīs popularity, itīs more on the line that I think that some people only appreciate it because itīs cool now. If the same issue would be presented 20 years ago, those same people wouldnīt be interested in the game.
There is also the problem of the simplification of the system, but thatīs more personal opinion.

You're probably right about it not being as popular twenty years ago, but why does that matter? Play the version of the game that you want to play, with the people with which you want to play it. Why are you concerned with all of these "other people?" They can only effect you if you let them.

Poldron56
2018-09-01, 07:33 PM
Short answer: No.

Long answer: Some of the most complex, difficult video games have come out in this era. Some of the best new systems, where D&D is no longer the only game in town, have proliferated with things like Kickstarter and internet forums.

D&D isn't nerd culture. It's part of it and nerd culture never had an identity.

First of all, thank you for your opinion.
In terms of the complexity of video games of this era, I am extremely sorry but I have to admit that arenīt many video games nowadays that can challenge the design complexity of older video games. For example, the ones that I truly feel that really made a breakthrough were CD Projekt Red games, Bioshock games and some Bioware games.
I do concur that there are many new unique systems that offered many new ways to experience Roleplaying. Personally, Iīm quite glad due to internet, it gave the opportunity to many unknown developers to expose and share their projects and ideas.
Yes, I know D&D doesnīt consist entirely nerd culture, but it is a quintessential part of it, and it has been since the infancy of "nerdom". Although, again Iīm very sorry, I do believe what you can identify what can be considered nerd or not.

Eldest
2018-09-01, 07:35 PM
First of all, thank you for the advice.
Second, itīs not so much sucking because of itīs popularity, itīs more on the line that I think that some people only appreciate it because itīs cool now. If the same issue would be presented 20 years ago, those same people wouldnīt be interested in the game.
There is also the problem of the simplification of the system, but thatīs more personal opinion.

So what if people are only exposed to the game if it's popular? Why does that matter? I sincerely don't think that "it's cool, so I have to do it" happens that often outside of high school or stories. Preformative nerdery is a toxic idea to get into, that's where the idea of fake geek girls comes from.

Honest Tiefling
2018-09-01, 07:41 PM
How would you even FIND people interested in it if it didn't become popular? I got into RPGs around the year 2000, when we had two flavors: D&D and Whitewolf. The groups I knew just didn't know about the others (or had people throwing things because of GURPS which were never run). And guess what? I got introduced to them by chance, as I met people interested into them. So what if people hear about them in other ways and can actively seek them out? Does it matter how they heard of it as long as they are having fun without ruining the fun of others? Does it change how they approach the game in any meaningful way? Is how you get into a hobby more important than what you do with it?

Also, I think RPGs getting more mainstream has increased hygiene standards amongst the nerd crowd, which I am supremely thankful for.

Poldron56
2018-09-01, 07:44 PM
You're probably right about it not being as popular twenty years ago, but why does that matter? Play the version of the game that you want to play, with the people with which you want to play it. Why are you concerned with all of these "other people?" They can only effect you if you let them.

Thank you for the reply.
Youīre right. As I stated before I didnīt want to offend anyone. If I was overly critical, Iīm extremely sorry. I just wanted to hear your opinions just to make a final and personal judgement about the subject. And as Iīm responding this to you, it is also my intention to redirect to all others who replied to this post. All I have to say is thank you for expressing your opinion and being honest :)
It was what it was. Now I only have to be glad that it is getting the recognition that it deserves and that it is reaching the heart of many young, old and passionate people about the genre.

Poldron56
2018-09-01, 08:01 PM
How would you even FIND people interested in it if it didn't become popular? I got into RPGs around the year 2000, when we had two flavors: D&D and Whitewolf. The groups I knew just didn't know about the others (or had people throwing things because of GURPS which were never run). And guess what? I got introduced to them by chance, as I met people interested into them. So what if people hear about them in other ways and can actively seek them out? Does it matter how they heard of it as long as they are having fun without ruining the fun of others? Does it change how they approach the game in any meaningful way? Is how you get into a hobby more important than what you do with it?

Also, I think RPGs getting more mainstream has increased hygiene standards amongst the nerd crowd, which I am supremely thankful for.

Thank for your reply.
Maybe Iīm just giving too much thought on the matter, that itīs leading me to become so overly critical and pessimist. Youīre right, in the end, what matters is having fun and having a blast with your friends.
I hope we can speak more in the near future. I would love to hear more about your personal experiences and opinions.

Honest Tiefling
2018-09-01, 08:08 PM
I hope we can speak more in the near future. I would love to hear more about your personal experiences and opinions.

Nah. One of the people introduced via a friend to roleplaying kept throwing things at the DM and 'jokingly' poking him with a blunted xacto-knife. I feel like someone else's experiences might be better.

And remember, it might be easy to get discouraged, but you won't get good players if you aren't accepting of newcomers. One might turn out to be a great roleplayer or more inventive with crazy schemes because they don't think like other roleplayers. Others might have a wealth of knowledge and experience to draw upon for better worlds. If they don't really 'get' you, maybe you should address that problem (Are you not meshing with the group, are they jerks, are there different expectations at play, etc.) instead.

Poldron56
2018-09-01, 08:22 PM
So what if people are only exposed to the game if it's popular? Why does that matter? I sincerely don't think that "it's cool, so I have to do it" happens that often outside of high school or stories. Preformative nerdery is a toxic idea to get into, that's where the idea of fake geek girls comes from.

Thank you for replying again.
As I stated before, Iīve been overly judgemental about the subject. I had no intent to offend anyone with the ideas I presented. I also donīt concur that the preconceived idea of the fake geek girl is somewhat dominant in our society due to some aspects of preformative nerdery. The way I conceive what is nerdy isnīt entirely related to the traditional view. I wasnīt supporting any aspect of a group of individuals with lack of whatsoever social skills and hygiene, but just group a group of individuals that present a certain set of ideologies thatīs all.
I hope we can speak more in the near future, I would like to know more about your experiences as a RPGer.

Honest Tiefling
2018-09-01, 08:25 PM
...but just group a group of individuals that present a certain set of ideologies thatīs all.

I hope this doesn't come across as aggressive, as I am genuinely interested in your contributions to the forums. What sort of ideologies do you think represents your definition of nerds?

Poldron56
2018-09-01, 08:28 PM
Nah. One of the people introduced via a friend to roleplaying kept throwing things at the DM and 'jokingly' poking him with a blunted xacto-knife. I feel like someone else's experiences might be better.

And remember, it might be easy to get discouraged, but you won't get good players if you aren't accepting of newcomers. One might turn out to be a great roleplayer or more inventive with crazy schemes because they don't think like other roleplayers. Others might have a wealth of knowledge and experience to draw upon for better worlds. If they don't really 'get' you, maybe you should address that problem (Are you not meshing with the group, are they jerks, are there different expectations at play, etc.) instead.

I must thank you for the advice. Iīll try to be less judgemental and more accepting about the matter so that I can improve not just as DM or Roleplayer, but also as a person.
Iīm sorry to hear about that. I hope you have better experiences in the near future.
Farewell and have a great day.

P.S: If you ever wish to to talk or change opinions feel free to PM

Poldron56
2018-09-01, 08:37 PM
I hope this doesn't come across as aggressive, as I am genuinely interested in your contributions to the forums. What sort of ideologies do you think represents your definition of nerds?

Itīs not at all aggressive.
In my opinion, in a very rudimentary definition, a nerd can be qualified as an individual who presents a great passion towards a subject that is extremely related to logical side, such as mechanics, biology, chemistry, physics, literature, etc.

Comrade
2018-09-01, 09:12 PM
Itīs not at all aggressive.
In my opinion, in a very rudimentary definition, a nerd can be qualified as an individual who presents a great passion towards a subject that is extremely related to logical side, such as mechanics, biology, chemistry, physics, literature, etc.

I'm not sure how literature is 'extremely related to the logical side', particularly compared to all the other STEM fields you listed, but that's a pretty expansive definition of 'nerd'. I would have thought there was a higher bar to clear than just being passionate about pretty much any art or science.

2D8HP
2018-09-01, 10:11 PM
.....Whatīs your opinion about the state of D&D and the nerd and geek culture of present times? Do you think Iīm being overly critical and hypocritical. Thank you for reading my post and have stupendous day ;)


It's a Golden Age now!

Well...
....except that there's no Star Trek or Buffy like shows, or even Doctor Who on broadcast television, but since I seem to be one of the few srill living who only gets TV through an antenna, that's probably not an issue for most

I started as a DM using the 48 pages of the "bluebook" in 1978, and as a player using oD&D, the TSR supplements, Arduin, All the World's Monsters, and the AD&D Monster Manual.

Those games of 1979 to '81'ish were the most fun games I've played, but they didn't last, we switched to other RPG's and war games, and in 1985 (upon the release of Unearthed Arcana) I stopped buying new D&D rules for many years, but I still bought many other games, until I left the hobby in '91 (the genres available at the tables I could find, Superheroes,"Dark Future's",and "World's of Darkness" weren't to my taste).

I bought 3e, but found the changes and complexity off putting (yes I know AD&D was also complex, but I already knew it and learned it when I had more patience and mental agility).

5e D&D has often been great fun to play, but seems too complex for me to DM without a lot of editing.

It is very cool that the Adventurer's League and the Pathfinder's Society make it much easier to find games now than any other time in my memory, there's lots of new players and they seem far more polite than my age-mates were in the 1980's.

Superheroes have long been popular (I can remember the many hours long line to see the Michael Keaton Batman), but now adults can speak freeely of being fans without being mocked.

On video games. ..
....um I played Asteroids and Missle Command back to the '80's, but I really don't know much about them now, my son was a big fan of some games based on Naruto a few years ago and asked me to play it with him, but they give me a headache so I'm no judge.

Unfortunately the Other Change of Hobbit Fantasy & Science Fiction bookstore closed, which is saddening, but there's still Dark Carnival in Berkeley and Borderlands in San Francisco.

In other aspects of modernity, there's far less audible gunfire than in the 1980's and less murders, and beautiful young people zip to and fro on bicycles while wearing tights!

Kyrell1978
2018-09-02, 12:31 AM
It's a Golden Age now!

Well...
....except that there's no Star Trek or Buffy like shows, or even Doctor Who on broadcast television, but since I seem to be one of the few srill living who only gets TV through an antenna, that's probably not an issue for most

I started as a DM using the 48 pages of the "bluebook" in 1978, and as a player using oD&D, the TSR supplements, Arduin, All the World's Monsters, and the AD&D Monster Manual.

Those games of 1979 to '81'ish were the most fun games I've played, but they didn't last, we switched to other RPG's and war games, and in 1985 (upon the release of Unearthed Arcana) I stopped buying new D&D rules for many years, but I still bought many other games, until I left the hobby in '91 (the genres available at the tables I could find, Superheroes,"Dark Future's",and "World's of Darkness" weren't to my taste).

I bought 3e, but found the changes and complexity off putting (yes I know AD&D was also complex, but I already knew it and learned it when I had more patience and mental agility).

5e D&D has often been great fun to play, but seems too complex for me to DM without a lot of editing.

It is very cool that the Adventurer's League and the Pathfinder's Society make it much easier to find games now than any other time in my memory, there's lots of new players and they seem far more polite than my age-mates were in the 1980's.

Superheroes have long been popular (I can remember the many hours long line to see the Michael Keaton Batman), but now adults can speak freeely of being fans without being mocked.

On video games. ..
....um I played Asteroids and Missle Command back to the '80's, but I really don't know much about them now, my son was a big fan of some games based on Naruto a few years ago and asked me to play it with him, but they give me a headache so I'm no judge.

Unfortunately the Other Change of Hobbit Fantasy & Science Fiction bookstore closed, which is saddening, but there's still Dark Carnival in Berkeley and Borderlands in San Francisco.

In other aspects of modernity, there's far less audible gunfire than in the 1980's and less murders, and beautiful young people zip to and fro on bicycles while wearing tights!
Enjoy the golden age while it lasts. We'll all be regulated back into the basement soon enough. :smallwink:

Poldron56
2018-09-02, 05:16 AM
It's a Golden Age now!

Well...
....except that there's no Star Trek or Buffy like shows, or even Doctor Who on broadcast television, but since I seem to be one of the few srill living who only gets TV through an antenna, that's probably not an issue for most

I started as a DM using the 48 pages of the "bluebook" in 1978, and as a player using oD&D, the TSR supplements, Arduin, All the World's Monsters, and the AD&D Monster Manual.

Those games of 1979 to '81'ish were the most fun games I've played, but they didn't last, we switched to other RPG's and war games, and in 1985 (upon the release of Unearthed Arcana) I stopped buying new D&D rules for many years, but I still bought many other games, until I left the hobby in '91 (the genres available at the tables I could find, Superheroes,"Dark Future's",and "World's of Darkness" weren't to my taste).

I bought 3e, but found the changes and complexity off putting (yes I know AD&D was also complex, but I already knew it and learned it when I had more patience and mental agility).

5e D&D has often been great fun to play, but seems too complex for me to DM without a lot of editing.

It is very cool that the Adventurer's League and the Pathfinder's Society make it much easier to find games now than any other time in my memory, there's lots of new players and they seem far more polite than my age-mates were in the 1980's.

Superheroes have long been popular (I can remember the many hours long line to see the Michael Keaton Batman), but now adults can speak freeely of being fans without being mocked.

On video games. ..
....um I played Asteroids and Missle Command back to the '80's, but I really don't know much about them now, my son was a big fan of some games based on Naruto a few years ago and asked me to play it with him, but they give me a headache so I'm no judge.

Unfortunately the Other Change of Hobbit Fantasy & Science Fiction bookstore closed, which is saddening, but there's still Dark Carnival in Berkeley and Borderlands in San Francisco.

In other aspects of modernity, there's far less audible gunfire than in the 1980's and less murders, and beautiful young people zip to and fro on bicycles while wearing tights!

Thanks for your reply, Sir!
I dearly appreciate your positive view on our modern society overall compared to 3 decades ago.
I hope that your still paixonate for the hobby and that it has a positive effect on your life.
I would wish to know more about your experiences, so if youīre free PM me if you like.
Salutations.

P.S: Is your son also integrated into the hobby too?

Kyrell1978
2018-09-02, 09:00 AM
P.S: Is your son also integrated into the hobby too?

Well, I can't speak for 2D8HP, but I know that all six of my kids play from time to time, and about four of them love it.

Honest Tiefling
2018-09-02, 10:37 AM
Well...
....except that there's no Star Trek or Buffy like shows, or even Doctor Who on broadcast television, but since I seem to be one of the few srill living who only gets TV through an antenna, that's probably not an issue for most

Consider a streaming service. It's not a golden age until you can rewatch your favorite shows before actually getting out of bed for the day and forsaking any natural light.

Kyrell1978
2018-09-02, 12:11 PM
Consider a streaming service. It's not a golden age until you can rewatch your favorite shows before actually getting out of bed for the day and forsaking any natural light.
Yeah, this. Cheaper than cable or satellite and more stuff than you could watch in a life time.

Morty
2018-09-02, 06:10 PM
New people coming into a hobby is the best thing that can happen to it. Conversely, there's fewer worse things that can happen to it than becoming insular, pushing away newcomers and becoming niche. New people bring with them new ideas and expectations. Most of them will, sadly, keep playing D&D 5E and never stray from it, but other systems are more easily accessible than ever and some of them will move on to them. And because there's more people, there's more incentive to keep coming up with new and better games. So, yeah, the idea that D&D, or tabletop games in general, are becoming "too casual" is silly and baseless.

EdgeOfTheAbyss
2018-09-02, 09:29 PM
Yea I think I understand where your coming from. I've felt the same problem with Pathfinder 2ed, its a simplified version of the game it has none of the mechanical intensity that it used to.

2D8HP
2018-09-02, 10:29 PM
Thanks for your reply, Sir!
I dearly appreciate your positive view on our modern society overall compared to 3 decades ago.
I hope that your still passionate for the hobby and that it has a positive effect on your life.
I would wish to know more about your experiences, so if youīre free PM me if you like.
Salutations.

My experiences?

What, like how bearded college aged players of Magic-Users earned my undying and continuing wrath at DunDraCon back in 1980 when I was 12 years old?

Um... just do a Username "2D8HP" search in Ascending order, I'm sure I've posted most if it these past few years, but sure I'll PM you something, probably tomorrow.


P.S: Is your son also integrated into the hobby too?


He read "Ready Player One" and asked about D&D in 2015, and I got back into it and started buying new stuff again, but alas my son decided that he liked "Magic the Gathering" better.

At least he said he enjoyed reading some of the old books I gave him.

Devils_Advocate
2018-09-03, 05:26 PM
Perhaps there has been a certain "simplifying" "mainstreaming", even "dumbing down", of "nerdy" things, but that doesn't mean that there are, in absolute terms, fewer really nerdy nerd things, or fewer really nerdy nerds. The nerdiest material and the nerdiest nerds may be hard to find among the background of the more mainstream and less nerdy, but I honestly think that's less of a problem than the previous problem of locating pockets of nerdium in a background of non-nerd stuff. On the contrary, I think that the internet and social networking have made it easier to find e.g. old-school roleplaying groups. Those groups being outnumbered by other roleplaying groups doesn't make them any less common among the population at large.

I have to wonder whether you just lack much exposure to non-mainstream stuff. So far as video games are concerned, for example... are you aware of, say, Dwarf Fortress? (Still in alpha; dwarves do not yet possess full self-awareness.) And as for tabletop RPGs, the current edition of Exalted seems to be pretty widely regarded as going in the opposite direction from "simplified" and "streamlined" (but doing unconventional things with its complexity; it's very different in many ways from AD&D and its knockoffs).

Perhaps the problem is that you yourself are, by the standards of the nerdiest of old-school nerds, a "filthy casual noob", and you need dig deeper in order to learn how to nerd harder. Who knows? Maybe you'll find that all the nerdiness that you could ever want was inside you, all along.

2D8HP
2018-09-03, 07:33 PM
...Maybe you'll find that all the nerdiness that you could ever want was inside you, all along.


Someomr please "Sig" that!

Tvtyrant
2018-09-03, 08:05 PM
I think there is a legitimate complaint to be made about appropriation. Lots of nerd stuff was the perview of the socially maladjusted, and like other forms of appropriation people have adopted the cool thing but not the people who identified with them.

Society is no more tolerant of the long nailed, unshowered individuals who I played MTG and D&D with as a teen. It just likes their stuff.

OTOH, complaining about appropriation is pointless. Society moves on quickly enough. Look at the rise and fall of any genre of music, the popularity of this too shall pass.

The Fury
2018-09-03, 08:50 PM
I recall a quote my professor for a children's literature course told me. Chump that I am, I don't remember who the quote is attributed to and I'm probably mangling it, but roughly it was, "When was the best science fiction written? Well, what year was it when you were twelve years old?"

I bring this up because geek culture and the media surrounding it are highly susceptible to "nostalgia goggles." I lump tabletop RPGs into this as well. Speaking for myself mainly, I have to be aware that there's some things I'm nostalgic for and it's tempting to think of them as better, even when I'm aware of my bias.

Focusing on RPGs like D&D in specific, they're a weirdly personal experience. For a some people, including me, they're a sort of self-discovery. There are things about myself that I probably would have never learned if I hadn't played so much D&D, like how I'm actually pretty good at coming up with nicknames, and how there's a lot more to be gained by being a team player than I thought. It probably did more to solidify my love for the fantasy genre than anything else as well.

The editions that I mainly played were 3.0 and 3.5, but if anyone can have a similar experience to mine with some other edition, or a different RPG entirely, then for that particular person they were just as good, objective design merits aside.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-09-03, 09:57 PM
Tabletop gaming has never been in a better place. Yes, RPGs have been broadened to appeal to a wider audience than ever before. This is a good thing. RPGs are awesome and there would be nothing better than for there to be an RPG out there for everyone. Old editions don't go away if you prefer those, you can still play and enjoy them.

As for D&D itself, 4th and 5th edition are unquestionably better designed than 1-3e. 3rd edition is a broken mess and 1-2e are incredibly simple and rely heavily on descriptions and GM fiat to function at all. That doesn't mean 4-5e are necessarily more fun. If I had to pick an edition of D&D to play I'd pick 1st edition because I enjoy it the most. 5e seems kind of bland and soulless to me. But that's fine. Plenty of people enjoy 5e D&D, and more power to them. I'm glad they have fun with it.

Basically, to sum it up, variety is a good thing. I'm glad games exist that fill certain people's gaming needs, even if I have zero interest in playing them myself. Roleplaying game technology has come a long way in the 40 odd years they've been around, and that can only be a good thing.

And yes, geek culture is mainstream now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qDYU92WuZ0

Edit for more content - not only do old editions still exist, but there's also modern games that emulate the old school games but with the benefit of 20+ years of RPG experience to build them with. Look at the OSR.

King of Nowhere
2018-09-03, 10:21 PM
I've noticed that there's a tendency to simplify and speed up things. I liked it more when nerd culture had a higher learning curve that kept out people who were superficial about it.

On the plus side, not facing stygma is great. I barely remember when people looked at you with suspect when you mentioned an hobby of videogaming. And anyway, there is so much more variety now. Even if I appreciate a lower percentage of what is generally dubbed "nerd culture", I still find more things I appreciate because nerd culture grew.

And last, do not worry too much about what other people think or do.

The Fury
2018-09-03, 10:42 PM
I've noticed that there's a tendency to simplify and speed up things. I liked it more when nerd culture had a higher learning curve that kept out people who were superficial about it.

I don't know about that. When I was just starting out with tabletop RPGs, I had a couple different kinds of experiences. As I was new to the whole RPG thing in general, there was a lot that I didn't know, which lead me to ask questions, sometimes I'd get a helpful answer that would allow me to figure things out. Other times I got a... less helpful answer, usually to the effect of, "You do know how a book works, right? Figure it out."

See, I wouldn't be bothered by the higher learning curve stuff if it didn't keep people out that wanted to learn, but maybe need a little extra help to understand the material.

Mr Beer
2018-09-03, 11:10 PM
I've noticed that there's a tendency to simplify and speed up things. I liked it more when nerd culture had a higher learning curve that kept out people who were superficial about it.

Sounds like elitism to me. The more people who are into your thing, the better, unless you have a burning need to be some kind of contrarian hipster type.


On the plus side, not facing stygma is great. I barely remember when people looked at you with suspect when you mentioned an hobby of videogaming. And anyway, there is so much more variety now. Even if I appreciate a lower percentage of what is generally dubbed "nerd culture", I still find more things I appreciate because nerd culture grew.

And this is why...I'd rather there were lots of dumb people enjoying dumbed down RPGs than have to deal with wackos who think I'm worshipping Satan.

CarpeGuitarrem
2018-09-03, 11:50 PM
I think there's actually a strong argument that earlier D&D had less of an identity, at least in terms of themes and world. As D&D has advanced, the worldbuilding just got more and more detailed and fleshed out.

Teddy
2018-09-04, 12:30 AM
In terms of the complexity of video games of this era, I am extremely sorry but I have to admit that arenīt many video games nowadays that can challenge the design complexity of older video games. For example, the ones that I truly feel that really made a breakthrough were CD Projekt Red games, Bioshock games and some Bioware games.

What genres are you thinking about here? I can without hesitation say that in the Grand Strategy segment (my home turf), there's pretty much nothing more complex in design than the Paradox Interactive are currently maintaining. I can't really speak for many other genres, though, since I'm somewhat narrow-focused my gaming.

As for Tabeltop RPGs, I think judging the genre as a whole solely on D&D falls into the trap of assuming that the most well-recognised name in a genre has to represent the core essence of the genre itself. At the same time, these are often the titles picked up by the people who are completely new to the genre, because they're the ones the're the most likely to recognise (guidance from experienced players or game store owners can of course influence this). This puts these titles in a seat where not only is a large part of their consumer base completely inexperienced in the genre, but health of the genre itself depends on these titles to actually capture these newcomers.

I think this is one reason industry giants tend to strive toward becoming more accessible at the cost of mechanical complexity/diversity. The obvious solution for those who want to dive deeper into the genre is to widen their own horisons and look for the titles made by smaller publishers.

Mordaedil
2018-09-04, 02:02 AM
Gatekeeping isn't cool, let's just not.

Geek is a the new cool, as it were, and it isn't actually a bad thing. Bullying is a thing that happens regardless of how geek you are, but I reckon your perception is actually tainted by your own experience there, the thing is that D&D was already getting integrated into mainstream culture already back in the mid-90's, but people refused to accept it. It isn't really a recent thing, people just think it is. But appropriation of this scale takes time before it becomes publically recognized. Discovering this when I was in high-school was quite an experience as I recognized that it was my own geeky friends rejecting people interested in the hobbies, whether it was video games, MTG or D&D. Suddenly I was the one hanging out with the bullies of the class playing D&D with them, played with Star Wars toys and doing things stereotypically nerdy with them. They were rejected by the geeks cause they took care of their physiques, but they were the ones who introduced me to Tolkien and how to roleplay proper.

The big difference was that they didn't outright advertise their geekiness. They had a lot of varied interests and it was an important experience to realize that the world isn't as black/white as high school at first makes you think it is.

MoiMagnus
2018-09-04, 04:05 AM
Old D&D edition blantantly fail the test "Is this complexity layer worth it?" for a lot of rules.
But it's normal, game design is getting better and better over time, so is rule design, and rulebook design.
5e is the first D&D edition to have a "modern intelligent design". (4e tried, but did not really succeed in my view)

However, as pointed out, the target audiance changed in between. Which is good because the success of the old D&D made D&D the "standard RPG", so the FIRST rpg that nerd teenager will try with their group of beginner. And starting rpg, with a beginner DM, in 3.x or 4e is absolutely horrible. While 5e leads to more interesting stuff.
So that's great things they changed their target audiance.

I'm really looking forward Pathfinder 2nd edition, which seems to be as technical as the old D&D, though designed in the "modern way".
(As simple example, Attacks of Opportunity become a Fighter exclusive capacity, which is a good answer to "is this complexity layer worth it?")

Satinavian
2018-09-04, 05:00 AM
I had a similar experience when i once was totally into dinosaurs and the Jurassic Park came out and dinosaurs where suddely mainstream.

But the thing is, i was 10 at the time and my reaction was not particularly mature. Yes, something that was important to my idendity was suddenly everywhere and that didn't feel good. But this feeling is unfounded. One should embrace the sudden popularity, not trying to fight against it.

2D8HP
2018-09-04, 06:38 AM
With my having started with the 1977 "bluebook" Basic rules, it still gives me a sense of dissonance to read that people think 5e is "dumbed down D&D", when 5e seems incredibly full and complex by comparison.

What was imprinted on me as "D&D" waa just 48 pages of rules, and they worked!

Chaosticket
2018-09-04, 06:39 AM
I expected something different from the title.
This is going into general game theory.

Games need simple skeletons as a foundation for more complex works.
Im observing that more recent roleplaying games lack the complex part.

5th edition Dungeon and Dragons and Pathfinder 2 Playtest lack the complexity necessary (to some) to be worth playing for long periods. Factors such as low level caps, limited special abilities, generic stories, and so on make games uninteresting for savvy adults.

The older I get the simpler rather than interesting I see tabletop games get. Yes RPGs do go mainstream and that also means player quality changes. Older gamers can be like "get good or get dead" while newer gamers are "just happy to be at the table".

Im both. Once I start something I take it seriously.

2D8HP
2018-09-04, 06:46 AM
....Factors such as low level caps, limited special abilities, generic stories, and so on make games uninteresting for savvy adults.....


Mark me down as an un-savy 50 year old adult then.

Lorsa
2018-09-04, 08:01 AM
@Poldron56:

Like someone mentioned earlier, you really need to write with more paragraphs. It's horrible to read a wall of text, especially if you suffer from certain types of vision defects.

In any case, your observations really require quite deep analysis, and may even differ from country to country. For example, what is this "nerd culture" you speak of? Is it a fixed thing, or is it fluid?

Generally speaking, geeks and nerds are different, while both are loosely defined as being interested in "non-mainstream" activities (or even, activities that are not socially acceptable). There are some issues with this as well, as we might have the "sports geek" or "sports nerd", even though sports are a mainstream activity. So anyway, if we define them as being "non mainstream", then being into video games was nerdy in the past, but not today. It's not that "nerd culture" has become mainstream (since under this definition, it can't), it's that some interests that were previously considered nerdy or geeky no longer aren't.

Another way to define "nerd culture" would be with a fixed set of interests. That is, geeks and nerds are interested in video games, no matter WHAT the rest of society feels about those activities. Viewed in that light, then nerd culture has indeed become more popular. This definition runs into the problem with defining what interests typically make up nerd culture. In fact, those would then be defined by what was not mainstream in the past. Any such definition is problematic to me.

To me, nerd culture were always defined by the mainstream. People were branded nerds for not adhering to the regular social norms (of dress, behavior or activities). In a way, "nerd culture" seems to have been defined by the people outside of it. In any case, it means that activities that got you branded as a nerd in the past no longer does so today. What counts as a "nerd" has shifted.

Obviously I am not a sociologist, so my statements should not be taken as "truth", rather than my current viewpoint of the matter.

Before I discuss your point about D&D, I want to take a sidetrack and go over when and why many previously-viewed nerd activities started to become mainstream.

One answer, I believe, can be found when my generation became adults. We grew up playing video games as children, which was scoffed at by adults for being "childish". And, according to mainstream definitions, if you engage in "childish activities" and not the more socially acceptable "adult" ones, you were a geek or nerd. However, since we didn't stop playing video games as adults, this activity has now become accepted, and therefore more and more people are engaging in it. If adults do it, then its okay.

Another main turning point is "The Matrix" and "The Lord of the Rings" movie trilogy. The Matrix was a sci-fi (omg nerdy!) movie that became extremely popular in mainstream culture. Suddenly it wasn't so bad anymore. It was even brought up in school during my philosophy class by the teacher. Just about everyone saw The Matrix, and just about everyone like it. So now sci-fi started to become accepted.

The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy though was really the big forerunner. Never in history had a Fantasy movie gotten so much funding, and never had it been so popular. The truth back then was that fantasy was a fringe interest and fantasy movies were doomed to fail. Not so any more. Everyone saw TLotR, and everyone loved them.

In recent years, sci-fi has become even more popularized by Marvel studios, and fantasy by Game of Thrones. I mean seriously. The highest-budget TV-show so far is a Fantasy show? And everybody and their aunt is watching it. So, fantasy is now mainstream, and you are no longer a nerd for loving it.

What does this have to do with D&D? Well, maybe a little. It is true that D&D now has a larger potential fanbase. This means that their product needs to shift somewhat. One thing that differentiates geeks from nerds according to: https://bigthink.com/laurie-vazquez/are-you-a-geek-or-a-nerd is the bent of nerdy people towards more intellectual pursuits. If you only target the classical "nerd" (and indeed not the geek), then your game can be a lot more complicated, as those people might appreciate the sheer complexity. Intrinsically, there is really nothing in RPGs that says a game has to, or should be, complicated to learn and practice. But, as has been shown in this thread, some might appreciate it. There is a certain feeling of reward when you have mastered something hard (and the subsequent elitism when suddenly people can become practitioners without having to put in "the work").

However, from a design standpoint, if you want to sell product, it is much better to be approachable for a large majority of people. Not just that ones that enjoy complicated stuff just for the sake of it. Indeed, I believe D&D has shifted from being more "nerdy" to being more "geeky". Simply because there are more geeks than nerds interested in RPGs.

So it is really a natural evolution, and in fact I think D&D 5e is a lot stronger in its design than 3.5. It has a clear purpose and makes sure all rules support it while at the same time being easy to learn.

Then again, if you really DO like complicated or complex stuff just for the sake of complexity (which is a valid interest), then there are several other RPGs that fit that niche. Or, as you have found, older versions of D&D. The change in D&D is not about a change in the essence of the game, it is just a change of complexity. Complexity has never been what RPGs were about, and I think it's great that more people can enjoy this wonderful activity.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts.

comk59
2018-09-04, 08:40 AM
Mark me down as an un-savy 50 year old adult then.

Sigh me up for the non-savvy train too. I didn't even realise 20 was considered a low level cap.

Kyrell1978
2018-09-04, 08:49 AM
With my having started with the 1977 "bluebook" Basic rules, it still gives me a sense of dissonance to read that people think 5e is "dumbed down D&D", when 5e seems incredibly full and complex by comparison.

What was imprinted on me as "D&D" waa just 48 pages of rules, and they worked!

Whoo. That rules set was a meatgrinder. We played that a few times in the late 80s as a throwback game but swiftly returned to our AD&D homebrewed 1.75 ish game.

Anonymouswizard
2018-09-04, 10:23 AM
I think there's actually a strong argument that earlier D&D had less of an identity, at least in terms of themes and world. As D&D has advanced, the worldbuilding just got more and more detailed and fleshed out.

While the Lore has become more complex there's actually much less coherent themes compared to early D&D. As I remember early D&D was highly focused on the pursuit of wealth and ancient secrets, order versus chassis, and civilisation versus wilderness. This began being made less coherent when AD&D introduced this newfangled and unnecessary 'Good versus Evil' axis, and now you barely see those strong original themes anymore!

But yeah, 'geek' is the current fad, but the main result is that some geeky things have been accepted (like D&D) while some 'half-geeky' things have appeared (you all know what I mean, 'geek stuff designed for the mainstream', but actually pinning down a list of that stuff is impossible because where it begins and ends is different for everybody). At the same time I can ask if people want to play Unknown Armies, The Dark Eye, Traveller, Eclipse Phase, or Fantasy AGE and get blank looks, as D&D is so synonymous with roleplaying most people haven't heard of most of the systems I own (and I'm somebody with a burning apathy towards D&D).

GloatingSwine
2018-09-04, 10:35 AM
While the Lore has become more complex there's actually much less coherent themes compared to early D&D. As I remember early D&D was highly focused on the pursuit of wealth and ancient secrets, order versus chassis, and civilisation versus wilderness. This began being made less coherent when AD&D introduced this newfangled and unnecessary 'Good versus Evil' axis, and now you barely see those strong original themes anymore!


You mean it reflected the popular fantasy at the time like Moorcock and Howard?

The shock!

D&D has always cast its eye over the genre as it stands and, well, nicked anything that wasn't nailed down. But the genre is bigger and broader than ever, so D&D has more to draw on.

Arbane
2018-09-04, 10:40 AM
Sounds like elitism to me. The more people who are into your thing, the better, unless you have a burning need to be some kind of contrarian hipster type.

To paraphrase grognards.txt: "WHAAAAAHHH!!! If the ****ing JOCKS start playing D&D, I'll have to admit that I'm a social outcast because of my lack of hygiene and social skills, not because I like D&D!"

And it's not like being an Insufferable RPG Hipster is all THAT hard, I did it myself all through the 1990s. "Oh, you still play D&D and Vampire? That's cute. I only play my own homebrew BRP variant with a tea-leaf resolution system and rules for Gnosticism (adapted from Kult) that let the PCs fight the GM directly..." :smallbiggrin:

2D8HP
2018-09-04, 11:21 AM
To paraphrase grognards.txt: "WHAAAAAHHH!!! If the ****ing JOCKS start playing D&D, I'll have to admit that I'm a social outcast because of my lack of hygiene and social skills, not because I like D&D!"

And it's not like being an Insufferable RPG Hipster is all THAT hard, I did it myself all through the 1990s. "Oh, you still play D&D and Vampire? That's cute. I only play my own homebrew BRP variant with a tea-leaf resolution system and rules for Gnosticism (adapted from Kult) that let the PCs fight the GM directly..." :smallbiggrin:

Oh! I like BRP variants, and being an insufferable hipster, wait I mean TOTALLY ASKING FOR A FRIEND!!! (that's the ticket).

DMThac0
2018-09-04, 11:23 AM
With my having started with the 1977 "bluebook" Basic rules, it still gives me a sense of dissonance to read that people think 5e is "dumbed down D&D", when 5e seems incredibly full and complex by comparison.

What was imprinted on me as "D&D" waa just 48 pages of rules, and they worked!

This right here. I was 8 years old when I found my parent's bluebook and my brother an I were hooked.

--

The idea that "in before it was cool" is an argument shows that one of the core "nerd culture" tenets is being lost to you OP. The nerd culture is here to embrace, enjoy, and celebrate more people into the fold.

-Did the wargame scenarios of D&D 1972 get lost to the epic sagas of heroism in 2014? Yes they did, but the culture that is playing D&D today is not the same as the culture that played then.
-Does the plethora of streaming shows depicting the various groups playing D&D take away from the image of basement dwelling nerds, demonic rituals and socially inept teens? You bet it does, we now know that celebs like Vin Diesel play the game, and the stigma of "you can't do this" is now being removed.
-Does this mean we, the proud "Nerd Culture" have to open our arms up to the "geek culture", "jock culture", "theater culture', etc.? Yes it does, which is what helps us as a human race teach acceptance, one d20 at a time.

Are we no longer the special unicorns hiding from the public eye? Yes, and I want to say Hooray! Since it's the reason I have a new car, a beautiful wedding, the remodeling of my house, and a new business....due to the new nerds who've been introduced to my life.

Knaight
2018-09-04, 11:31 AM
To paraphrase grognards.txt: "WHAAAAAHHH!!! If the ****ing JOCKS start playing D&D, I'll have to admit that I'm a social outcast because of my lack of hygiene and social skills, not because I like D&D!"

See: The previous comment about nerd culture being appropriated, but the "long nailed unshowered" types still not being accepted. There's an obvious solution to being unshowered; it's called showering - or taking a bath, or whatever. Maybe throw some deodorant on too, if that also hasn't been happening.

That's not to say that people weren't ever social outcasts because they liked D&D, but that was more the massive pile of stupidity that was the satanic panic than anything else.

Anonymouswizard
2018-09-04, 12:12 PM
You mean it reflected the popular fantasy at the time like Moorcock and Howard?

The shock!

D&D has always cast its eye over the genre as it stands and, well, nicked anything that wasn't nailed down. But the genre is bigger and broader than ever, so D&D has more to draw on.

The problem is the lack of core consistency. Even with taking from everywhere it used to come back to those core themes. Be it's just 'heroism', with no core themes to define what heroism is.

And now I've got plans to take the mercenary ideals of D&D and make it the core theme of a setting, probably alongside themes of eternal change and social unrest.


To paraphrase grognards.txt: "WHAAAAAHHH!!! If the ****ing JOCKS start playing D&D, I'll have to admit that I'm a social outcast because of my lack of hygiene and social skills, not because I like D&D!"

While this is written in the most insulting way possible, it kind of is the core of the issue. While I seen it happen occasionally almost nobody will be shunned just because of their hobbies. And I became a lot more popular a I made the move to only missing the occasional shower (maybe one a week) instead of almost all of them. Women even occasionally smile at me, the strange creatures.

Tvtyrant
2018-09-04, 02:32 PM
See: The previous comment about nerd culture being appropriated, but the "long nailed unshowered" types still not being accepted. There's an obvious solution to being unshowered; it's called showering - or taking a bath, or whatever. Maybe throw some deodorant on too, if that also hasn't been happening.

That's not to say that people weren't ever social outcasts because they liked D&D, but that was more the massive pile of stupidity that was the satanic panic than anything else.

Truly there is no form of social acceptance deeper then telling people that to become accepted they should just accept social norms.

Regardless of acceptance of nerd activities, the people who were social outcasts still are. That is the textbook definition of appropriation.

OTOH, accepting social pressures worked for me.

War_lord
2018-09-04, 04:28 PM
Truly there is no form of social acceptance deeper then telling people that to become accepted they should just accept social norms.

Regardless of acceptance of nerd activities, the people who were social outcasts still are. That is the textbook definition of appropriation.

OTOH, accepting social pressures worked for me.

See, in this case the social norms are things like "don't be a jerk to girls just because they're girls, shower every two to three days, wear clean clothes every day, brush your teeth in the morning and evening, brush/comb your hair if it's long enough for that to matter."

Like, it's not stamping out a unique nerd culture here, it's basic hygiene and social skills. Some guys are just mad because they can't hide behind D&D to explain their conscious decision to refuse to look after themselves to a basic level anymore.

If you're (not you personally, generic you) mad that someone looks down on gamers as unwashed, immature, manchildren... Stop dressing and acting like one. Lord of the Rings: TFoTR was 17 years ago, there are D&D players alive today who weren't around when fantasy was uncool.

Anonymouswizard
2018-09-04, 04:36 PM
Truly there is no form of social acceptance deeper then telling people that to become accepted they should just accept social norms.

Regardless of acceptance of nerd activities, the people who were social outcasts still are. That is the textbook definition of appropriation.

OTOH, accepting social pressures worked for me.

I think the intent is pretty clear, many activities that used to make people go 'you do that, weird' are now 'you do that, cool'. Ten years ago I wouldn't have been caught lugging my RPG books around to read on the train, a bit over a week ago I had a couple of security guards happily surprised that I was carrying my Unknown Armies corebook (although I had to do the old 'like D&D but' spiel).

But other things that caused people to not be accepted haven't been changed, particularly the ones related to the 'smelly nerd' stereotype. Now I have a lot of trouble with personal grooming, I hate using hair gel and my curls make my hair look scruffy at the longer varieties of 'male professional' (on the other hand I'm not going back to the shorter varieties, I like my curls), plus I have a beard that looks terrible unless it's been trimmed within the last couple of days. But I'm in a job where I'm allowed to look a bit scruffy, do neaten up when asked, none of my friends care about the scruffyness, and I now can't go more than a day before I begin feeling greasy and search for a shower.

Although there's a lot of people who's eyes will glaze over when I talk about science fiction and fantasy, that's a case of just needing to find people who share my interests.

The point is, bad hygiene is something that'll always get you left out except among a very particular group of people who will tolerate it. Also that I need to buy a comb and put some underwear in the wash.

PaladinX
2018-09-04, 06:05 PM
Huddled masses living in their parents basement! Fear not my friends for the age of bad stereotyping is at an end!

Tvtyrant
2018-09-04, 06:05 PM
I don't disagree (personally I had a doctor tell me I was showering too often, 2x day or more for years).

But if you identify by participating in an activity, which people are now okay with but still not okay with you it doesn't improve you or the hobby (from your point of view), it just chases you out of your spaces. My LGS has moved from catering to die hard shut in nerds to a more casual audience, which is good for both of them but not for the shut ins.

NorthernPhoenix
2018-09-04, 06:26 PM
I don't disagree (personally I had a doctor tell me I was showering too often, 2x day or more for years).

But if you identify by participating in an activity, which people are now okay with but still not okay with you it doesn't improve you or the hobby (from your point of view), it just chases you out of your spaces. My LGS has moved from catering to die hard shut in nerds to a more casual audience, which is good for both of them but not for the shut ins.

The problem isn't the hobby, it's them. I can understand why this revelation makes them mad, but I can't find any sympathy at all. They need to change to be accepted.

And yes, I'm one of the new-fan jock-gamers. Sorry.

Jama7301
2018-09-04, 06:58 PM
One thing that always interests me about the "x is too dumbed down!" arguments is that a lot of times, people fail to take into consideration their years and years of built up systems mastery that can help transfer from game to game. You see it in video games, and I'm seeing it in RPGs right now.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-09-04, 07:14 PM
Count me as very glad that the stereotype is being destroyed. Exactly none of my play groups fit that mold--

Group 1:
I'm the closest thing to the stereotype, being an overweight nerd who avoids the outside. The others are either young or married (and still young). We're all professionals (3 teachers, 1 IT manager) except the wife of one of the players, who stays at home with their 1-year-old daughter. None of us lack hygene. Most of us are homeowners.

Group 2:
* Myself as DM
* An attorney-turned-teacher (with a family), one of the most clean-cut, well-dressed people I've ever met.
* A PhD organic chemist-turned-teacher (openly gay, with a family)
* A 50+-year-old spanish teacher/empty-nester.

None of them are even close to the stereotypes. They all had a blast in our summer campaign.

I've played with some of the stereotypical ones (in public games). It stank (literally and figuratively). Their "roleplaying" is the only form of murder-hoboism I've seen, including the 4 years of teenage school groups I've run. So forgive me if I prefer the new way.

Anonymouswizard
2018-09-04, 07:19 PM
One thing that always interests me about the "x is too dumbed down!" arguments is that a lot of times, people fail to take into consideration their years and years of built up systems mastery that can help transfer from game to game. You see it in video games, and I'm seeing it in RPGs right now.

People also can fail to notice the difference between steamlined, dumbed down, and cut back, and how those can combine with being more complex (4e cut D&D back to mostly just the combat rules, but made those more deep and complex).

Some of my favourite games these days are streamlined. They know what they want to focus on and they focus on it. Unknown Armies has it's five Shock Guages/Madness Meters, and in the latest edition made them give your character their core capabilities. While it seems a bit weird, it ties into the fact that essentially everything that defines your character in UA3e is part of their personality. Their Obsession, their Rage/Noble/Fear Triggers, their Shock Guages, and their Identities. The only thing on your character sheet not directly related is your five Relationships, which can only be used with the subjects of those relationships. It all ties together and works for a game about insane, obsessed people with magickal powers to help them get what they want. Then again a big draw for UA was it's amazing fluff, and the new rules encourage characters who better fit that fluff.

One of my big problems with 5e is how it isn't streamlined at all. Simplified (and cut down to essentials in a handful of areas), but there's no unifying vision behind it. It's attempting to be a 'highlights of the fantasy genre' thing while retaining all the sacred cows, and ends up as an undirected mess compared to the heroic fantasy focus of the early editions (which, I must admit, became an undirected mess of rules in the AD&D line, despite how much I love 2e BD&D was just better). Despite the fact that I'd never actually run it I have much more respect for Cubicle 7's Adventures in Middle Earth supplements than the entirity of 5e's core line, AiME knows exactly what it wants to be (helped by drawing from an established setting), and sets out to be exactly that, focusing it's mechanics so that players primarily play nonmagical characters (there's a handful of options in the corebook that give minor spells), giving rules for journies that make them feel more like an undertaking, and even some 'corruption' mechanics.

Nifft
2018-09-04, 07:27 PM
Count me as very glad that the stereotype is being destroyed. Exactly none of my play groups fit that mold--

Group 1:
I'm the closest thing to the stereotype, being an overweight nerd who avoids the outside. The others are either young or married (and still young). We're all professionals (3 teachers, 1 IT manager) except the wife of one of the players, who stays at home with their 1-year-old daughter. None of us lack hygene. Most of us are homeowners.

Group 2:
* Myself as DM
* An attorney-turned-teacher (with a family), one of the most clean-cut, well-dressed people I've ever met.
* A PhD organic chemist-turned-teacher (openly gay, with a family)
* A 50+-year-old spanish teacher/empty-nester.

None of them are even close to the stereotypes. They all had a blast in our summer campaign.

I've played with some of the stereotypical ones (in public games). It stank (literally and figuratively). Their "roleplaying" is the only form of murder-hoboism I've seen, including the 4 years of teenage school groups I've run. So forgive me if I prefer the new way.

Seconded.

I enjoy RPGs with grown-ups who have lives going on outside the game.

The effect of having a real life -- spouse, kids, other interests, work responsibilities, etc. -- mean that finding time is much more difficult, but playing with interesting people makes it worth the trouble. Mostly.

Max_Killjoy
2018-09-04, 07:30 PM
The problem is the lack of core consistency. Even with taking from everywhere it used to come back to those core themes. Be it's just 'heroism', with no core themes to define what heroism is.

And now I've got plans to take the mercenary ideals of D&D and make it the core theme of a setting, probably alongside themes of eternal change and social unrest.


Indeed, it's kinda funny to see the posters complaining about the phantom boogieman of "appropriation" in a thread about D&D of all things, for which the default implied setting is in a way, regarding fiction and myth and cultures, "Appropriation": the Game.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-09-04, 07:34 PM
People also can fail to notice the difference between steamlined, dumbed down, and cut back, and how those can combine with being more complex (4e cut D&D back to mostly just the combat rules, but made those more deep and complex).

Some of my favourite games these days are streamlined. They know what they want to focus on and they focus on it. Unknown Armies has it's five Shock Guages/Madness Meters, and in the latest edition made them give your character their core capabilities. While it seems a bit weird, it ties into the fact that essentially everything that defines your character in UA3e is part of their personality. Their Obsession, their Rage/Noble/Fear Triggers, their Shock Guages, and their Identities. The only thing on your character sheet not directly related is your five Relationships, which can only be used with the subjects of those relationships. It all ties together and works for a game about insane, obsessed people with magickal powers to help them get what they want. Then again a big draw for UA was it's amazing fluff, and the new rules encourage characters who better fit that fluff.

One of my big problems with 5e is how it isn't streamlined at all. Simplified (and cut down to essentials in a handful of areas), but there's no unifying vision behind it. It's attempting to be a 'highlights of the fantasy genre' thing while retaining all the sacred cows, and ends up as an undirected mess compared to the heroic fantasy focus of the early editions (which, I must admit, became an undirected mess of rules in the AD&D line, despite how much I love 2e BD&D was just better). Despite the fact that I'd never actually run it I have much more respect for Cubicle 7's Adventures in Middle Earth supplements than the entirity of 5e's core line, AiME knows exactly what it wants to be (helped by drawing from an established setting), and sets out to be exactly that, focusing it's mechanics so that players primarily play nonmagical characters (there's a handful of options in the corebook that give minor spells), giving rules for journies that make them feel more like an undertaking, and even some 'corruption' mechanics.

To me, "knows what it wants to be and focuses on it" translates to "has a narrow niche." Which is fine. But not my preference at all. I want the rule system itself to stay more broad-brush and let me add the specifics. So I can do dungeon crawls one session and politics another, in areas ranging from gonzo high magic to (comparatively) much lower magic. All without having to learn (and find players for) a succession of niche systems, each with their own quirks.

To each their own.

2D8HP
2018-09-04, 08:09 PM
To me, "knows what it wants to be and focuses on it" translates to "has a narrow niche." Which is fine. But not my preference at all. I want the rule system itself to stay more broad-brush and let me add the specifics. So I can do dungeon crawls one session and politics another, in areas ranging from gonzo high magic to (comparatively) much lower magic. All without having to learn (and find players for) a succession of niche systems, each with their own quirks.

To each their own.


I like both (I loved the GURPS "Worldbooks").

I love me some D&D (or Stormbringer!) Swords & Sorcery, but one of my favorite RPG's is Pendragon, in which you play an Arthurian Squire, Knight or Lady (unless you played the 4th edition, which had Magic-User PC's as well, but subsequent editions dropped that mess!), and it's a narrow focus I love.

Mythic Iceland, in which you play a Viking age Icelander is also very cool, as was Call of Cthullu in which you play a 1920's, well....

....basically monster lunch.

Judging by the contents of one of my old boxes, I also once loved Cyberpunk (and even Vampire), but I think actually living in the 21st century cured my of that!

Max_Killjoy
2018-09-04, 08:26 PM
See, in this case the social norms are things like "don't be a jerk to girls just because they're girls, shower every two to three days, wear clean clothes every day, brush your teeth in the morning and evening, brush/comb your hair if it's long enough for that to matter."

Like, it's not stamping out a unique nerd culture here, it's basic hygiene and social skills. Some guys are just mad because they can't hide behind D&D to explain their conscious decision to refuse to look after themselves to a basic level anymore.

If you're (not you personally, generic you) mad that someone looks down on gamers as unwashed, immature, manchildren... Stop dressing and acting like one. Lord of the Rings: TFoTR was 17 years ago, there are D&D players alive today who weren't around when fantasy was uncool.

Yeah, if bad hygiene and loathsome personal habits really are a part of one's "culture", then one might wish to find another "culture".

Nifft
2018-09-04, 08:27 PM
Yeah, if bad hygiene and loathsome personal habits really are a part of one's "culture", then one might wish to find another "culture".

Those certainly weren't part of RPG culture back in the days when it got documented in E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial.

Max_Killjoy
2018-09-04, 08:43 PM
Those certainly weren't part of RPG culture back in the days when it got documented in E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial.

You are correct, they were not. Thus the quotation marks.

They never have been. As someone else stated, being a "nerd" has just been a fig leaf for some people to stink up the place because they can't be bothered or as an act of smell rebellion.


Back in college, there was a set of rooms we had access to on Friday night and Sunday afternoon, that we used for the gaming club.

One particular room was used on Friday nights by a bunch of players of a game that was just then coming into its surge in popularity, at least in this area.

No one used that room on Sunday, because it was still funky... we referred to it sarcastically as "the smell of magic".

Knaight
2018-09-05, 05:28 AM
But other things that caused people to not be accepted haven't been changed, particularly the ones related to the 'smelly nerd' stereotype. Now I have a lot of trouble with personal grooming, I hate using hair gel and my curls make my hair look scruffy at the longer varieties of 'male professional' (on the other hand I'm not going back to the shorter varieties, I like my curls), plus I have a beard that looks terrible unless it's been trimmed within the last couple of days. But I'm in a job where I'm allowed to look a bit scruffy, do neaten up when asked, none of my friends care about the scruffyness, and I now can't go more than a day before I begin feeling greasy and search for a shower.

Sure, but scruffy and unclean are two very different things. Someone being disheveled instead of neat is no skin off anyone else's back; someone being pungent is skin off the backs of everyone within a several yard radius.

woweedd
2018-09-05, 05:58 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/gatekeeping/

That's what you sound like right now.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-09-05, 07:18 AM
Sure, but scruffy and unclean are two very different things. Someone being disheveled instead of neat is no skin off anyone else's back; someone being pungent is skin off the backs of everyone within a several yard radius.

Especially the mix of BO, sweat, and tobacco/alcohol/pot. That's a lasting obnoxiousness.

Anonymouswizard
2018-09-05, 09:33 AM
To me, "knows what it wants to be and focuses on it" translates to "has a narrow niche." Which is fine. But not my preference at all. I want the rule system itself to stay more broad-brush and let me add the specifics. So I can do dungeon crawls one session and politics another, in areas ranging from gonzo high magic to (comparatively) much lower magic. All without having to learn (and find players for) a succession of niche systems, each with their own quirks.

To each their own.

Focusing doesn't have to mean a narrow result. The problem with with D&D is that it doesn't focus at all. Not even in the way something like GURPS does (which goes for a focus on realism and human scales).


Sure, but scruffy and unclean are two very different things. Someone being disheveled instead of neat is no skin off anyone else's back; someone being pungent is skin off the backs of everyone within a several yard radius.

Sure, I should have made it clear that at the level I'm at I have no problems, but I used to STINK simply because I didn't shower enough. Heck I probably should use deodorant to mitigate any stink that builds up during the day, but most people accept bring a tad smelly at the end of the day if you've remembered to wash in the morning and after exercise.

I have trouble with personal grooming, but not basic cleanliness. There's probably some people who wouldn't associate with me because of the fact I look disheveled and didn't put hours in to get the look.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-09-05, 10:21 AM
Focusing doesn't have to mean a narrow result. The problem with with D&D is that it doesn't focus at all. Not even in the way something like GURPS does (which goes for a focus on realism and human scales).


Doesn't have to, but all too frequently does. It's the theory/practice divide. A large part of it is that I prefer my rulesets wide-open and covering a bunch of different abstraction levels (in different parts). Because that makes it easy for me to pick and choose which rules to apply where and to adjust/tinker with things.

An analogy--
old-school LEGO sets were pretty generic. Almost all the pieces were standard building blocks, with a few specialized pieces for that particular shape. This meant that replicating an exact design was harder, but you could mix and match pieces to build things never thought of by the designers. And if you lost one piece, there were a dozen more exact duplicates (although possibly in different colors) in other sets.

Modern LEGO sets are much more specialized, with lots of custom pieces. But that limits the amount of mixing and matching one can do. And heaven help you if you lose one of those custom pieces.

For me, RPG rule-sets are better when they're like the old-school LEGOs. Flexible mechanics that can be used across a wide variety of situations and genres and aesthetics. Yes, even if this means you have some rough edges and mismatched pieces. So for me, "focus" feels like replacing my beloved generic LEGO pieces with beautiful, custom built ones. It misses the entire point of a rule-set.

If I want a more "realistic" or "gritty" game with D&D, I can tweak the levers to get there (within reason). And I can do this on a session-by-session basis: use different variant rules for different sessions (carefully flagged, of course). But starting from GURPS, I can't get something that feels like D&D, because the gritty combat is baked deep into the system. It's why I don't like the AW-line -- it tries to tell me how to play, as if it's in charge. And if you don't do what it wants, the whole game falls apart. Whereas in D&D (5e at least), I can experiment, switch styles/rule variants on a group-by-group or even a session-by-session basis and nothing breaks.

DMThac0
2018-09-05, 10:52 AM
Whereas in D&D (5e at least), I can experiment, switch styles/rule variants on a group-by-group or even a session-by-session basis and nothing breaks.

As well, on the off chance it does break, there is so much leeway and freedom of expression/choice that patching up that error is almost as seamless as making it in the first place.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-09-05, 11:29 AM
As well, on the off chance it does break, there is so much leeway and freedom of expression/choice that patching up that error is almost as seamless as making it in the first place.

That's my experience as well. It's one reason I don't like more "tightly defined" systems (mechanically). They tend to be like fancy cars--beautiful machines that have very small tolerances for error. While my system may run a bit rougher, it's also ok with me making adjustments on the fly.

Knaight
2018-09-05, 02:10 PM
Especially the mix of BO, sweat, and tobacco/alcohol/pot. That's a lasting obnoxiousness.
Though this is a good example of how this isn't necessarily a nerd thing specifically - the people I've known who were worst about this were consistently not nerds, but urban cowboy types (people who used "cowboy" attire as cultural markers but never seemed to show up at an actual farm or ranch), and the disgusting things they did with chewing tobacco.

I've known the occasional stinky nerd to stink up a place, and I'm less than happy to see it. I'll still take it over deciding that the proper way to get rid of chewing tobacco is to spit it in a water fountain, or even just the constant chew-spit cycle in a bottle for every minute of every day.


I have trouble with personal grooming, but not basic cleanliness. There's probably some people who wouldn't associate with me because of the fact I look disheveled and didn't put hours in to get the look.
Sure, there are. The point is that there's a meaningful difference between that group and the people who wouldn't associate with people because of their constant stink and it coming from an unwillingness to simply shower.

Going to visual stuff alone there's a difference between being unkempt and deciding that as a statement you're going to wear a bright strobelight aimed at approximate eye height.

LordCdrMilitant
2018-09-05, 02:25 PM
This is the first time I write on this forum. I specifically chose Giant in the Playground and not other online platforms because most folks around are veterans and able to present a well established argument on why things are the way it is presently. The topics I would like to discuss are the changes that are occurring in terms of dnd and nerdculture itself.

I donīt mean to sound agressive and hateful towards people o started the hobbie recently, hell I've been only playing since 2014, however along these last years Iīve been distancing from present day Dnd and being more related to older editions (3.5, 3rd and 2nd, more precisely ). Again I donīt mean to be disrespectful, but I feel that Dnd is lacking a charm that older editions naturally have. This is mostly due to the change the ocorred to nerd and geek culture that I felt made D&d, video games, comic books and other media exciting.

I feel that they oversimplified the game to appeal a new wave of people that a few years back would probably disregard D&D. This doesn't mean it's something bad, by the contrary, the game is getting the recognition it deserves, however, the problem comes from the fact that attracted a group of people that consider it cool because nowadays "itīs cool to like and participate in RPGs". I might sound cynical given the fact I've only started it recently, but all my life I was judged for being a geek due to liking old video games, comic books and strategy board games. Funny enough, I liked, especially due to a fact I dealt with a minority of people that to this day we still hangout and consider them my best friends. I didn't mind wasting afternoons playing Talisman or Heroclix, it was fun and I was spending time with people that really did get me.

Nowadays forget it. Everyone belongs to the nerd and geek crew because itīs cool. Just as cool as wearing a t-shirt from a band you donīt even listen too. The same can be said about the Super Hero genre, Star Wars and alike. I started taking this matter very seriously when I was watching a video about Joe Manganiello talking about his experiences with D&D. He stated that he stopped playing D&D because during that time it was considered nerdy by society and he didn't want to be considered that type of person, only to later resume a few years later when it was recently considered cool. I didn't really comprehend why one would stop playing for that specific reason, but to each his own.

The question I wanted to ask you guys was simply your opinion about this matter, what do you think? Whatīs your opinion about the state of D&D and the nerd and geek culture of present times? Do you think Iīm being overly critical and hypocritical. Thank you for reading my post and have stupendous day ;)


I... uh... this... No. We should be trying to build bridges, not walls. I think this move towards mainstream acceptance is a positive direction to take our hobby.

I hear this and variations on this theme a lot, actually. "They made it simpler to make it mainstream, now it sucks!" I could speculate on why there's this attitude, but I won't. It's a form of gatekeeping, though, and I don't think it's a good thing.

However, there's no reasonable way to change your mind. If what you want out of the hobby is a barrier to separate you and your immediate friends from the "cool kids", there's nothing I can say to change your opinion, and you're right, D&D becoming mainstream is absolutely destroying what you want out of it.


That said, there's also a more pragmatic reason for why a move towards mainstream is good, and why it's happening: no company can survive by providing a niche product to a small and increasingly dwindling group of people. No hobby can survive as a small, insular, and increasingly dwindling and fractured group of people.


Anyway, I think that tabletop roleplaying, as an element of "geek/nerd culture", is in an excellent and improving place, with widespread positive awareness and increasing participation, especially among young people. D&D is at the core and forefront of it, and bears significant responsibility for making the hobby accessible and acceptable.

Nifft
2018-09-05, 02:33 PM
I... uh... this... No. We should be trying to build bridges, not walls. I think this move towards mainstream acceptance is a positive direction to take our hobby.

But if we build too many bridges, then girls may start playing RPGs, and as we all know girls have cooties.

JNAProductions
2018-09-05, 02:43 PM
But if we build too many bridges, then girls may start playing RPGs, and as we all know girls have cooties.

Perfect logic. Zero flaws.

To the OP... Who really cares? I do understand the desire to have something unique to you or your friend group, but speaking honestly, which is better:

1) You move to a new place, away from your old friends, and have this cool, super awesome hobby that no one else does or even knows about, and you can't do it because it's a group activity.

Or...

2) You move to a new place, away from your old friends, and have this cool, super awesome hobby that a decent amount of other people do, and through that, you're able to find new friends and have a good time.

Anonymouswizard
2018-09-05, 03:01 PM
Sure, there are. The point is that there's a meaningful difference between that group and the people who wouldn't associate with people because of their constant stink and it coming from an unwillingness to simply shower.

Going to visual stuff alone there's a difference between being unkempt and deciding that as a statement you're going to wear a bright strobelight aimed at approximate eye height.

Of course. Strobelights are a crotch accessory.

In all seriousness, that's been my point as well. You can be unreasonable as hell, and still be accepted if your don't stink.

JAL_1138
2018-09-05, 03:40 PM
This thread is making me think of the posts that always get made to local Adventurers’ League and other gaming groups on Facebook in late spring and summer before cons or other reasonably-crowded events, reminding/begging people to please wear deodorant. Summer around here tends to regularly have daytime temperatures in the mid-high-80s to mid-90s, and humidity somewhere between “sauna” and “so muggy it’d be drier to jump in a lake,” so if someone doesn’t, it gets, uh, noticeable pretty quick. And there’s always someone...or several someones...let’s just say summertime conventions in the southern US can develop some serious funk by the end of the day.

2D8HP
2018-09-05, 03:48 PM
Strobelights?

Funk?

Cooties?

It's a Disco!

Lord Torath
2018-09-05, 03:55 PM
But if we build too many bridges, then girls may start playing RPGs, and as we all know girls have cooties.Hah! My grandma had Cooties! But my cousins lost most of the pieces, so she eventually got rid of them. I loved that game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_of_Cootie) when I was young.


I... uh... this... No. We should be trying to build bridges, not walls. I think this move towards mainstream acceptance is a positive direction to take our hobby.

I hear this and variations on this theme a lot, actually. "They made it simpler to make it mainstream, now it sucks!" I could speculate on why there's this attitude, but I won't. It's a form of gatekeeping, though, and I don't think it's a good thing.

However, there's no reasonable way to change your mind. If what you want out of the hobby is a barrier to separate you and your immediate friends from the "cool kids", there's nothing I can say to change your opinion, and you're right, D&D becoming mainstream is absolutely destroying what you want out of it.


That said, there's also a more pragmatic reason for why a move towards mainstream is good, and why it's happening: no company can survive by providing a niche product to a small and increasingly dwindling group of people. No hobby can survive as a small, insular, and increasingly dwindling and fractured group of people.


Anyway, I think that tabletop roleplaying, as an element of "geek/nerd culture", is in an excellent and improving place, with widespread positive awareness and increasing participation, especially among young people. D&D is at the core and forefront of it, and bears significant responsibility for making the hobby accessible and acceptable.I completely agree with you!

JAL_1138
2018-09-05, 03:59 PM
Strobelights?

Funk?

Cooties?

It's a Disco!

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/rsz_disco_backdrop_8949.png

Nifft
2018-09-05, 04:07 PM
Hah! My grandma had Cooties! But my cousins lost most of the pieces, so she eventually got rid of them. I loved that game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_of_Cootie) when I was young. Was your grandmother ever a girl?

If so, the theory is confirmed.


https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/rsz_disco_backdrop_8949.png That's a funky battle map.

The figurine in the center looks Huge, since he's covering 3 squares.

BreaktheStatue
2018-09-05, 05:30 PM
I am a lifelong "nerd" - especially so when I was in high school. Not so long ago, but it was before "nerd culture" was socially acceptable. I didn't stink, but I did get bullied, and I didn't have a lot of friends. I liked all the typical nerd things, RPGs included, back when they were niche and unpopular.

But to me, if a new generation of kids can grow-up enjoying the same sort of things I did/do without being socially ostracized for it, I think it's GREAT. Good for them.

Their emotional well-being is more important to me than whatever since of resentment I could have (I don't) about "normies" coming into the hobby.

It's easy to be nostalgic about some stupid "good old days" nerd identity, but I think that nostalgia is a coping mechanism to deal with a lot of terrible, emotional trauma.

JAL_1138
2018-09-05, 05:30 PM
We’ve now reached a point where an Acquisitions Incorporated D&D game was livestreamed into movie theaters. The hobby is genuinely growing again, for the first time in a long while.

But keep in mind that this isn’t strictly speaking new. Back in the days of Red Box—one of the most successful RPG products ever—D&D was also massively popular, with a Saturday-morning cartoon, a reference in E.T., around a dozen licensed video games, merch, multiple bestselling book series, and sales of core products in Sears catalogues. It didn’t really dwindle until the end of the 80s and the early 90s, despite the attempts of the Satanic Panic moral guardians—what hurt it most was probably a combination of factors such as the expansion of home video, the rebirth of video game consoles with the NES, competition from numerous other products (e.g., White Wolf, West end Games, Steve Jackson games, etc.), the dawn of the TCG craze, mismanagement at TSR, and a host of other home-entertainment options and business issues, that pushed it into more of a niche thing. What’s happening with D&D’s popularity now is arguably less of a new phenomenon and more of a resurgence (though one that seems to have grown past its prior peak, if Mearls’ claims that 5e has outsold Red Box are accurate).

The relative obscurity and barriers to entry of D&D (and other RPGs) from the mid 90s to the 2010s aren’t the whole story of the game’s history and pop-cultural impact.

mephnick
2018-09-05, 05:53 PM
I think it's a good thing there are a lot more..uh.."balanced" people in the RPG public these days. I've been running D&D games since the 90's and I've been terrified of game stores since I was a teenager. The game store weirdo is a bad stereotype, but damn..I've met some real ****ing weirdos trying to do things at game stores that I would never meet at work, on a soccer team, or running club. The fact that some of these people from other areas in my life may also be interested in RPGs and video-games is revolutionary and has only made my life and hobby better.

Knaight
2018-09-05, 05:59 PM
It didn’t really dwindle until the end of the 80s and the early 90s, despite the attempts of the Satanic Panic moral guardians—what hurt it most was probably a combination of factors such as the expansion of home video, the rebirth of video game consoles with the NES, competition from numerous other products (e.g., White Wolf, West end Games, Steve Jackson games, etc.), the dawn of the TCG craze, mismanagement at TSR, and a host of other home-entertainment options and business issues, that pushed it into more of a niche thing.

I'd argue that the satanic panic moral guardians were one of the single best things that happened to D&D as a product (in the context of the lived experiences of individual D&D players, not so much). The adage "no publicity is bad publicity" exists for a reason, and blowing off authority figures when they're losing their crap over approximately nothing is a long running youth hobby, even if they would have absolutely no interest in what the authority figures are spouting off about otherwise.

mephnick
2018-09-05, 06:04 PM
I'd argue that the satanic panic moral guardians were one of the single best things that happened to D&D as a product.

Absolutely a great example of the Streisand Effect.

Kyrell1978
2018-09-05, 06:07 PM
(in the context of the lived experiences of individual D&D players, not so much).

This is a bit of an understatement. I don't know if you were around for it, but it meant immediately being ostracized, sometimes not even by the kids but by their parents. But I live in the middle of the Bible Belt so maybe it wasn't so bad elsewhere. :smallbiggrin:

Nifft
2018-09-05, 06:13 PM
Wait wait wait, I missed something from the OP.

If D&D is hyper-saturated, could we just drop a seed crystal in and pull out a whole new game?

(Also: do you think Dwayne Johnson would work?)

JAL_1138
2018-09-05, 06:18 PM
I'd argue that the satanic panic moral guardians were one of the single best things that happened to D&D as a product (in the context of the lived experiences of individual D&D players, not so much). The adage "no publicity is bad publicity" exists for a reason, and blowing off authority figures when they're losing their crap over approximately nothing is a long running youth hobby, even if they would have absolutely no interest in what the authority figures are spouting off about otherwise.


This is a bit of an understatement. I don't know if you were around for it, but it meant immediately being ostracized, sometimes not even by the kids but by their parents. But I live in the middle of the Bible Belt so maybe it wasn't so bad elsewhere. :smallbiggrin:

It may have made the lives of players hell (it certainly did in my hometown in rural East MiddleOfNowhere, Appalachia, where it persisted well into the late 90s and early ‘00s when I encountered it, and to some slightly lesser extent is still going on today), but in terms of business, the Satanic Panic certainly seemed to boost interest and thus sales figures—it may be a correlation/causation conflation, but it was in swing when Red Box came out and took off like a rocket.

Mr Beer
2018-09-05, 06:26 PM
Ever read those crazy Chick Tracts about D&D? Super annoying that charm spells don't work in real life, though to be fair I skipped worshipping Satan so maybe that's what went wrong.

Beleriphon
2018-09-05, 06:30 PM
One thing that always interests me about the "x is too dumbed down!" arguments is that a lot of times, people fail to take into consideration their years and years of built up systems mastery that can help transfer from game to game. You see it in video games, and I'm seeing it in RPGs right now.

I like that, it works in videogames too. There's a certain logic that videogames to follow in their design, no matter what the game actually is. This is driven in part by the fact that the games are meant to be played on a flat screen with a control interface of some kind, to the fact that there's only so much you can do before you make something nobody wants to play because its just too weird.

Arbane
2018-09-05, 06:43 PM
Found this in a sig on another forum. It seems relevant.
"I am so weary of male geeks treating geekdom like it's the goddamn Marines. 'I didn't see my friends die face down in the fictional muck of my AD&D campaign so you could just come in here and start liking The Avengers, lady!'" - Hanover Fist


Ever read those crazy Chick Tracts about D&D? Super annoying that charm spells don't work in real life, though to be fair I skipped worshipping Satan so maybe that's what went wrong.

The people who make The Gamers series made a movie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LADLv1803Vw&list=PLTtpi7gJO7XOBoFSiLAYjrfR6n9odNG9y) out of that one. With permission. :smallwink:

JAL_1138
2018-09-05, 07:18 PM
I like that, it works in videogames too. There's a certain logic that videogames to follow in their design, no matter what the game actually is. This is driven in part by the fact that the games are meant to be played on a flat screen with a control interface of some kind, to the fact that there's only so much you can do before you make something nobody wants to play because its just too weird.

PC gamers tend to complain most about games getting “dumbed down,” I think, possibly due in some significant part to multiplatform games needing to be designed to work on consoles with gamepads instead of taking full advantage of KB+M (nevermind that more PC games for primarily-PC genres that had faded in popularity for a while are being made to high standards by midsize and indie devs now than ever), although apparently it’s spread to the Nintendo crowd too.

I find the complaints about 5e being “dumbed down for the casuals and kiddies” to be kinda strange, as someone who started in 2e AD&D (toward the very tail end of it, granted, although I wasn’t a fan of the “Players’ Option” series like Combat & Tactics that came out around then and didn’t use them much) and find it to feel more like a throwback to the D&D I grew up with in spite of the huge difference in mechanics, whereas 3.5 and 4e didn’t feel like the same D&D, and have seen so many other TSR grognards pulled back into the D&D fold after years of grousing about 3e-and-later games.

comk59
2018-09-05, 07:31 PM
I find the complaints about 5e being “dumbed down for the casuals and kiddies” to be kinda strange, as someone who started in 2e AD&D (toward the very tail end of it, granted, although I wasn’t a fan of the “Players’ Option” series like Combat & Tactics that came out around then and didn’t use them much) and find it to feel more like a throwback to the D&D I grew up with in spite of the huge difference in mechanics, whereas 3.5 and 4e didn’t feel like the same D&D, and have seen so many other TSR grognards pulled back into the D&D fold after years of grousing about 3e-and-later games.

It does feel odd that 3.P is considered "baseline D&D" by so many, and that any streamlining is considered dumbing down.

Darth Ultron
2018-09-05, 09:35 PM
I don't think D&D can loose it's identity in geek culture: D&D IS geek culture.

Going back to say the 60's, you had the proto-geeks, but they were in tight, closed circles. They each liked one specific thing. And as there was limited communication, it was hard for people to find each other, share ideas and communicate. It happened, but it happened slowly.

The '70's brought in D&D and gathered the geeks. The idea of using imagination to play a game where you can do anything really brought people to the table. Geeks of all types came to play the game, and they had something in common. By the '80s, if you were a geek, you have played D&D. It's nearly a basic requirement.

When you meet a geek, the question is not ''if'' they have played D&D, it is really more ''what" D&D they have played. You'd be hard pressed to find a geek that has not played D&D. This makes D&D really the base of geek culture.

One of the best and greatest things about D&D is it can be customized to whatever a person wants it to be....and this has always been true. ''How" to play the game has been an endless debate from Day One.

Willie the Duck
2018-09-05, 09:48 PM
I hope the OP (if this wasn't all a performance piece) has gotten the message--trying to explain that other people have just joined the D&D club because 'now it's cool' is gatekeeping. I.e. declaring others not good enough for your club, which is the same thing the stereotypical 'nerd' has supposedly spent their whole life being subjected to and ought to find repellant. You've got yours, now you want to draw up the drawbridge and make sure no one else can get inside. You were very polite, but the actual message you were conveying was rather toxic.

A few other points I would make on what others have said:

Yep, there are gamers around who weren't alive when nerdom was genuinely uncool.
I think most of us lost our credibility at being the 'outcast class' when we started (as a group) getting into high-income careers, summer blockbusters started catering straight to us, and of course when we became old enough to realize becoming an adult was our responsibility.
OP's definition of nerdery/nerdity ("an individual who presents a great passion towards a subject that is extremely related to logical side, such as mechanics, biology, chemistry, physics, literature, etc.") is rather self-congratulatory, and certainly useless for discussing TT RPGs. We are smart people interested in 'things that matter' (such a literature and science) if we're smart people interested in those things, not because we are nerds.
The premise that gaming fell from the pinnacle of 3e/PF down to 5e makes sense only if the entirety of one's experience are those two games. No one who has played a non-D&D TTRPG would ever put those two games on opposite ends of any spectrum. There are hundreds of games more rigorous/complex/broken (to mix positive, neutral, and negative terms) than 3e/pf, and hundreds more sublime/straightforward/simple than 5e. They simply aren't polar opposites.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-09-05, 09:51 PM
It does feel odd that 3.P is considered "baseline D&D" by so many, and that any streamlining is considered dumbing down.

I think it's just when the biggest group of relatively long time players started playing.

Mordaedil
2018-09-06, 01:32 AM
I don't think D&D can loose it's identity in geek culture: D&D IS geek culture.

Going back to say the 60's, you had the proto-geeks, but they were in tight, closed circles. They each liked one specific thing. And as there was limited communication, it was hard for people to find each other, share ideas and communicate. It happened, but it happened slowly.

The '70's brought in D&D and gathered the geeks. The idea of using imagination to play a game where you can do anything really brought people to the table. Geeks of all types came to play the game, and they had something in common. By the '80s, if you were a geek, you have played D&D. It's nearly a basic requirement.

When you meet a geek, the question is not ''if'' they have played D&D, it is really more ''what" D&D they have played. You'd be hard pressed to find a geek that has not played D&D. This makes D&D really the base of geek culture.

One of the best and greatest things about D&D is it can be customized to whatever a person wants it to be....and this has always been true. ''How" to play the game has been an endless debate from Day One.
This is just not true. I have plenty of friends who are absolutely geeks who have never played D&D. Some of them I was able to introduce to D&D. Others just had no interest in it, or gave it a try and had a miserable time.

BreaktheStatue
2018-09-06, 02:39 AM
I don't think D&D can loose it's identity in geek culture: D&D IS geek culture.

Going back to say the 60's, you had the proto-geeks, but they were in tight, closed circles. They each liked one specific thing. And as there was limited communication, it was hard for people to find each other, share ideas and communicate. It happened, but it happened slowly.

The '70's brought in D&D and gathered the geeks. The idea of using imagination to play a game where you can do anything really brought people to the table. Geeks of all types came to play the game, and they had something in common. By the '80s, if you were a geek, you have played D&D. It's nearly a basic requirement.

When you meet a geek, the question is not ''if'' they have played D&D, it is really more ''what" D&D they have played. You'd be hard pressed to find a geek that has not played D&D. This makes D&D really the base of geek culture.

One of the best and greatest things about D&D is it can be customized to whatever a person wants it to be....and this has always been true. ''How" to play the game has been an endless debate from Day One.

If you think about it, an "Alpha Geek" would probably lack the social skills to participate in something even as stereotypically geeky as old school DnD, so it's kind of weird that that's the litmus test.

For example, I knew cryptographers that were geeky enough to make Gary Gygax look like Tom Cruise, but they'd never be vocal enough to play the game.

BeerMug Paladin
2018-09-06, 03:12 AM
My inner baseline of gatekeeping vis-ā-vis geekiness is an interest/love of mathematics. If you don't find such topics enthralling, you're not in my clubhouse!

Back in the day, plenty of people I gamed with found THAC0 confusing enough that they needed to rely on me to perform the calculation required. So clearly, D&D playing is not a sufficient condition for entry.

Seriously, though there is no actual central 'geek' culture, as far as I'm concerned. Most of the 'accepted geek culture' stuff I have been exposed to I find tedious and overrated. No, I will not name those things in this thread. That's a quick route to a derail.

Although I suppose I could always be 'not really a geek'. There's that.

Anonymouswizard
2018-09-06, 05:53 AM
To all those worried about the jocks stealing their D&D I've got an elegant solution.

Who wants to start a GiantITP rugby team?

Willie the Duck
2018-09-06, 07:01 AM
Although I suppose I could always be 'not really a geek'. There's that.

Are you also not a true Scotsman? :smallbiggrin:

Kyrell1978
2018-09-06, 08:31 AM
I think it's just when the biggest group of relatively long time players started playing.

I'd say that's a pretty fair statement. When 3e came out there was definitely some grumbling by the second ed guys, but no where near as much as the switch between 3e to 4e. So (at least anecdotally) it seemed like 3e got a larger portion of the old players and brought in a bunch of new players for a couple of different reasons.


To all those worried about the jocks stealing their D&D I've got an elegant solution.

Who wants to start a GiantITP rugby team?

I would love to play rugby, you're going to have to teach me the rules though because rugby isn't super popular in the midwest United States.


The people who make The Gamers series made a movie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LADLv1803Vw&list=PLTtpi7gJO7XOBoFSiLAYjrfR6n9odNG9y) out of that one. With permission. :smallwink:

I always thought that was a spoof of the old Mazes and Monsters movie that had Tom Hanks in it.

comk59
2018-09-06, 09:06 AM
I always thought that was a spoof of the old Mazes and Monsters movie that had Tom Hanks in it.

Oh, there's elements of that, but Dark Dungeons has shots, names, and lines directly taken from the Chick Tract.

Kyrell1978
2018-09-06, 09:12 AM
Oh, there's elements of that, but Dark Dungeons has shots, names, and lines directly taken from the Chick Tract.

That's cool, I just didn't know. I ran into a lot of those Chick Tracts when I was a Corrections Officer. Did you know there was a Chick Tract against Star Wars also? They used the whole Force thing as people practicing witchcraft and whatnot. It was ridiculous.

Tanarii
2018-09-06, 10:34 AM
How much you wanna bet that the o.g. Geneva players made exactly this complaint in 1977-78?, when the hobbie was growing.

In fact ... didn't Gygax write more than one rant directed at how West Coast (ie Cal Tech) players were doing things?

This is a fairly typical reaction of everyone, every-when, to the passage of time and changes.

We can still go back and look at complaints in the original newspapers & broadsheets & pamplets about how things have changed, and (commonly) the "youth of today". IIRC there are even documented instances of this from ancient (roman and/or greek) times.

The Jack
2018-09-06, 10:46 AM
I'm going to exaggerate my own viewpoint for emphasis/ because it's fun to be an ass.

Nerd culture is bull****, and I'll hold resentment for anyone who self identifies as a 'Gamer'. Games are a diverse medium, you might as well tell me that you can read. You're a sucker if you think diving headlong into 'nerd' culture and using the label to define you is a good idea.

Now for DnD; I just want to play with good players and GMs. IE I don't want to play with bad players and GMs. I've played with so many people with issues that you can get sick of them. With one poor guy, we played WoD games as if it were his therapy; Oh he was a sympathetic guy, but he'd constantly fall for the same traps across different characters, and I still don't know if it's a point of pride or shame that I had him bawling his eyes out on occasion... But you can just get some really **** people playing these games... and as a person living in a small town with little choice in who to play with, it's tiresome to play with so many pariahs.

Now, granted, new players and "casuals" tend to be bad. It's a problem when they're not invested enough, but I think everyone makes bad first characters; I recall wanting to murder a 'pacifist' character in the party, but I'd take a regular jackoff who'll change over some ****bag with the incurable inability to make rollplay or make good characters.

Also, 5th edition is just better than older editions (except I dislike how skills are handled)
By being simple, it does many things a lot better. The grueling detail people put into bull**** tropes (IE special rules for japanese weapons) should just die.

/Edgelord.

I do know a lot of good people that I just don't think I want to play with.

Since world of darkness has been mentioned a few times, I want to point out how much I hate how 'progressive' the series has become. It's a satire, and while the series has always been a transgressor, the world as a whole was never meant to be progressive.
Vampires are divorced from gender politics, werewolves are angry cultists, mages are big headed ideologues, people are awful. It's everything in our world but exaggerated to be worse... it's weird that they're making it more progressive and ostensibly socially liberal. I mean is does an increased acceptance and championing of LGBTQ peoples in a world where everything is Worse sound like a good idea? I'm not sure if it's the freelancers or a cynical corporate move. It's lost identity.

mephnick
2018-09-06, 10:52 AM
I like that, it works in videogames too.

It's the Dark Souls effect. Every time a Souls game comes out players complain that they're making the games too easy or predictable and it isn't as hard as the other games.

No, you've just played 5 Souls games now and are tuned into the play style and tactics that help you win. Demons' Souls seemed hard as **** because that kind of game didn't exist before. Dark Souls was the introduction to most people who missed Demons' Souls. That's why everyone thinks those games are the hardest. It's the same as RPGs. D&D 5e is still bloated as hell compared to most RPGs. It isn't "dumbed down" at all.

Willie the Duck
2018-09-06, 10:57 AM
How much you wanna bet that the o.g. Geneva players made exactly this complaint in 1977-78?, when the hobbie was growing.

77-78 might have been a turning point. Up until then, it was still the underdog game that the wargamers rolled their eyes at when the D&D-ers came into the store --and before that, Chainmail was the namby-pamby 'fantasy' wargame that good true, real nerds (historical wargamers) scoffed at. 77-78 It was clear that this was becoming a real thing, and most players hadn't learned the game from someone else who had learned from Gary/Dave/etc. themselves.


In fact ... didn't Gygax write more than one rant directed at how West Coast (ie Cal Tech) players were doing things?

Oh for sure (well, him and his group), and those Arduin fans, 'Mnaty-Haul-ers,' and people who used Gods, Demi-Gods an Heroes as a second Monster Manual instead of a measuring stick to show what power-level you shouldn't have reached by now.

Of course, the game as a whole caught on with a different audience than he expected (college kids, and then high schoolers, much more than just wargamers). People liked power levels he didn't want to fully develop (level 8 was supposed to be 'superhero-level'). People focused on things he didn't consider as important (everyone wanted to fight a lot more than manage scarce resources, not too many people wanted to play warlord/noble/landowner come name level). And so on and so forth. So in a huge number of ways, the game that took off wasn't the game he had envisioned, even if the ruleset was the same.


We can still go back and look at complaints in the original newspapers & broadsheets & pamplets about how things have changed, and (commonly) the "youth of today". IIRC there are even documented instances of this from ancient (roman and/or greek) times.

And apparently someone who started gaming with D&D 3rd edition (roughly the ~ seventh of nine iterations of D&D as a whole, depending on how you chop it up) in 2014 is bemoaning how things were better in the good ol' days. The more things change, the more they stay the same. :smallbiggrin:

JAL_1138
2018-09-06, 11:03 AM
How much you wanna bet that the o.g. Geneva players made exactly this complaint in 1977-78?, when the hobbie was growing.

In fact ... didn't Gygax write more than one rant directed at how West Coast (ie Cal Tech) players were doing things?

This is a fairly typical reaction of everyone, every-when, to the passage of time and changes.

We can still go back and look at complaints in the original newspapers & broadsheets & pamplets about how things have changed, and (commonly) the "youth of today". IIRC there are even documented instances of this from ancient (roman and/or greek) times.

“Dagnabbed whippersnappers! Back in my day...” —Some grumpy old coot, ca. pretty much every era of recorded human history (paraphrased)

Plenty of instances from historical sources at this link: https://historyhustle.com/2500-years-of-people-complaining-about-the-younger-generation/

Tanarii
2018-09-06, 11:35 AM
And apparently someone who started gaming with D&D 3rd edition (roughly the ~ seventh of nine iterations of D&D as a whole, depending on how you chop it up) in 2014 is bemoaning how things were better in the good ol' days. The more things change, the more they stay the same. :smallbiggrin:
Which is absolutely hilarious to me, since I started at ten with a amalgam of BECMI and AD&D, played 2e extensively in college, and wholeheartedly embraced 3e on release, because of the way it simplified & unified the game.

Or, as some people put it at the time, TETSNBN "dumbed down" the game, appealing to newcomers and ruining the One True Way of the hobby. Even as it was expanding and growing the hobby in leaps and bounds. :smallamused:

(I'm sure 2e got the same reaction, but I didn't have regular internet access back then.)

Willie the Duck
2018-09-06, 12:05 PM
(I'm sure 2e got the same reaction, but I didn't have regular internet access back then.)

If I recall correctly, Usenet was split on whether it was a good idea, but the overall vitriol/gatekeeping/acting like you and your own part of the nerd tribe has been betrayed somehow attitude was much more muted. Of course, it was still TSR putting it out (the distinction between E. Gary Gygax-TSR and Lorraine Williams-TSR was something that a lot of people only really realized after the fact). So there wasn't this whole "this new MTG-fed company has taken your beloved thing and is going to do who-knows-what with it- angle that 3e had.

Arbane
2018-09-06, 12:31 PM
IIRC, the Usenet whiners complained that 3rd Edition D&D was "Just like Diablo". :smallbiggrin:


Since world of darkness has been mentioned a few times, I want to point out how much I hate how 'progressive' the series has become. It's a satire, and while the series has always been a transgressor, the world as a whole was never meant to be progressive.
Vampires are divorced from gender politics, werewolves are angry cultists, mages are big headed ideologues, people are awful. It's everything in our world but exaggerated to be worse... it's weird that they're making it more progressive and ostensibly socially liberal. I mean is does an increased acceptance and championing of LGBTQ peoples in a world where everything is Worse sound like a good idea? I'm not sure if it's the freelancers or a cynical corporate move. It's lost identity.

I don't know how old you are, but I'm pretty sure that WoD games always TRIED (in a 'clueless white-guy college grad' way) to be liberal, aside from their consistent fear of science and mathematics. Vampire power-structures are high-school politics with a body count, Mages are fighting The Man, Werewolves are up against NC-17-rated Captain Planet villains, Changelings shrivel up and die in the presence of accountants....

Max_Killjoy
2018-09-06, 12:46 PM
Since world of darkness has been mentioned a few times, I want to point out how much I hate how 'progressive' the series has become. It's a satire, and while the series has always been a transgressor, the world as a whole was never meant to be progressive.

Vampires are divorced from gender politics, werewolves are angry cultists, mages are big headed ideologues, people are awful. It's everything in our world but exaggerated to be worse... it's weird that they're making it more progressive and ostensibly socially liberal. I mean is does an increased acceptance and championing of LGBTQ peoples in a world where everything is Worse sound like a good idea? I'm not sure if it's the freelancers or a cynical corporate move. It's lost identity.



I don't know how old you are, but I'm pretty sure that WoD games always TRIED (in a 'clueless white-guy college grad' way) to be liberal, aside from their consistent fear of science and mathematics. Vampire power-structures are high-school politics with a body count, Mages are fighting The Man, Werewolves are up against NC-17-rated Captain Planet villains, Changelings shrivel up and die in the presence of accountants....


Indeed, White Wolf and their games-as-published have always been neck-deep in a sort of snobby, smug, angry college student faux "liberalism" (American usage) and postmodernist deconstructionism where everything you "know" is supposedly a lie your culture's controlling powers told you, and the real world is a dogpile of ugly "truths".

GloatingSwine
2018-09-06, 12:56 PM
I would love to play rugby, you're going to have to teach me the rules though because rugby isn't super popular in the midwest United States.


It's like American Football except not turn based.

Willie the Duck
2018-09-06, 12:59 PM
Since world of darkness has been mentioned a few times, I want to point out how much I hate how 'progressive' the series has become. It's a satire, and while the series has always been a transgressor, the world as a whole was never meant to be progressive.
Vampires are divorced from gender politics, werewolves are angry cultists, mages are big headed ideologues, people are awful. It's everything in our world but exaggerated to be worse... it's weird that they're making it more progressive and ostensibly socially liberal. I mean is does an increased acceptance and championing of LGBTQ peoples in a world where everything is Worse sound like a good idea? I'm not sure if it's the freelancers or a cynical corporate move. It's lost identity.


I don't know how old you are, but I'm pretty sure that WoD games always TRIED (in a 'clueless white-guy college grad' way) to be liberal, aside from their consistent fear of science and mathematics. Vampire power-structures are high-school politics with a body count, Mages are fighting The Man, Werewolves are up against NC-17-rated Captain Planet villains, Changelings shrivel up and die in the presence of accountants....

Agreed Arbane. Jack, I don't know what version of WoD you played, but the original version was positively brimming with 90s college-educated, upper-middle-class liberalism (with, as mentioned, touches of clueless attempts at multiculturalism). Werewolves were eco-terrorists. Mages was an anti-corporate 'screw the man' (hey fellow old folks: remember when in politics the man, the media, and the deep state all referred to conservatives?) rage against the machine. Changeling was Woodstock 25th anniversary hippy-revival writ large. Vampire, as the brand leader, got turned into anything the fandom wanted it to be, so it is hard to pin down. I don't know if using political allegory in a game is all that productive. I don't know if products that don't really have to pick a side in the modern culture war really ought to or not. However, I will give WoD credit for having picked a side from the beginning and been consistent about it.

Nifft
2018-09-06, 01:06 PM
It's like American Football except not turn based.

American Football is a game of inches.

Rugby is a game of centimeters.

Morty
2018-09-06, 01:11 PM
Since world of darkness has been mentioned a few times, I want to point out how much I hate how 'progressive' the series has become. It's a satire, and while the series has always been a transgressor, the world as a whole was never meant to be progressive.
Vampires are divorced from gender politics, werewolves are angry cultists, mages are big headed ideologues, people are awful. It's everything in our world but exaggerated to be worse... it's weird that they're making it more progressive and ostensibly socially liberal. I mean is does an increased acceptance and championing of LGBTQ peoples in a world where everything is Worse sound like a good idea? I'm not sure if it's the freelancers or a cynical corporate move. It's lost identity.

By "a few times", do you mean... exactly once? In passing? This looks like a pretty unprompted rant against the idea of diversity.

And as usual, when people say "World of Darkness", they mean "the old World of Darkness as it existed in the 90s", never mind that it's had several new iterations since then.

Doug Lampert
2018-09-06, 01:40 PM
It's like American Football except not turn based.

And with lots less armor. Hence the old saying, "Give blood, play rugby."

Anonymouswizard
2018-09-06, 02:50 PM
And with lots less armor. Hence the old saying, "Give blood, play rugby."

To be fair, while we mock American Football players for wearing armour, it does tend towards injuries that make it a lot more necessary. I believe it's due to the tackles, in AF it's a case of slamming into each other while in Rugby you pull them to the ground (there is a slam, but it's a lot less violent and is the only way to get the grip).

I don't believe it happens in professional rugby, but I've seen rugby players literally dragging their tacklers after them because they failed to get a good enough grip (although a that point you should be just passing).


The other great saying is 'football* is a gentleman's sport play by hooligans, rugby is a hooligan's sport played by gentlemen'.

* Association Football.

Willie the Duck
2018-09-06, 03:07 PM
To be fair, while we mock American Football players for wearing armour, it does tend towards injuries that make it a lot more necessary. I believe it's due to the tackles, in AF it's a case of slamming into each other while in Rugby you pull them to the ground (there is a slam, but it's a lot less violent and is the only way to get the grip).

Saying one is more mock-worthy than the other is like comparing fencing and jousting and pretending the jousters are wussy in some way for wearing armor or the fencers more wussy for facing less impactful weapons. They are different types of sport, with different associated injuries (rugby football does lead to more 'bloody' scrape-ups, gridiron football leads to more TBIs and joint injuries).

EDIT: Okay, now how did we end up on this tangent?:smalltongue:

Nifft
2018-09-06, 03:20 PM
Saying one is more mock-worthy than the other is like comparing fencing and jousting and pretending the jousters are wussy in some way for wearing armor or the fencers more wussy for facing less impactful weapons. They are different types of sport, with different associated injuries (rugby football does lead to more 'bloody' scrape-ups, gridiron football leads to more TBIs and joint injuries).

EDIT: Okay, now how did we end up on this tangent?:smalltongue:

"Jousters should just get off their high horse."

... and Gatekeepers should do likewise.

I've parried us back on topic!

Darth Ultron
2018-09-06, 03:35 PM
This is just not true. I have plenty of friends who are absolutely geeks who have never played D&D. Some of them I was able to introduce to D&D. Others just had no interest in it, or gave it a try and had a miserable time.

You did just prove my point though: your geek friends have played D&D. Though, too guess it depends what you will say a ''geek" is, too...


If you think about it, an "Alpha Geek" would probably lack the social skills to participate in something even as stereotypically geeky as old school DnD, so it's kind of weird that that's the litmus test.


D&D is infamous for being full of ''poor social skills alpha geeks''. It's just about the ''default gamer". Though granted like half the human race has ''poor social skills", so it's not like geeks somehow stand out.


Which is absolutely hilarious to me, since I started at ten with a amalgam of BECMI and AD&D, played 2e extensively in college, and wholeheartedly embraced 3e on release, because of the way it simplified & unified the game.

Or, as some people put it at the time, TETSNBN "dumbed down" the game, appealing to newcomers and ruining the One True Way of the hobby. Even as it was expanding and growing the hobby in leaps and bounds. :smallamused:

(I'm sure 2e got the same reaction, but I didn't have regular internet access back then.)

Well, a lot of the more modern changes have dumbed down D&D, and even more so made it a Nice Safe Place sort of game. Though, this is not unique to the game and has been a whole shift in society. 0E, 1E and 2E all cover the same basic hard fun game with lots of thing like death, loss and unfairness. By 2000, everyone wanted all the kidz to be safe and happy and protected and sheltered from the real world. And you can see the huge effect that had on 3E. Just about everything that might make a kidz sad was removed from 3E or watered down to just about nothing.

And 3E just went overboard with the mushy stuff like ''oh, summoned creatures are happy copies of the real creature made by magic from free trade, free range, non-conflict planes that sort of non-exist for a couple minutes to help your spellcaster in a fight, happy hugs and rainbows!"

Anonymouswizard
2018-09-06, 03:52 PM
Saying one is more mock-worthy than the other is like comparing fencing and jousting and pretending the jousters are wussy in some way for wearing armor or the fencers more wussy for facing less impactful weapons. They are different types of sport, with different associated injuries (rugby football does lead to more 'bloody' scrape-ups, gridiron football leads to more TBIs and joint injuries).

EDIT: Okay, now how did we end up on this tangent?:smalltongue:

It's not that we don't mock rugby, is just that the armour is an easy target for mocking. I'm English, we mock everything. I pointed out that yes, there is a general understanding that the sports are different, although I significantly prefer the less turn based more scrapes and bruises game of rugby as a personal preference.

Plus, you know, a scrum is both enjoyable and looks highly suspect.

Arbane
2018-09-06, 05:51 PM
And no, White Wolf wasn't a satire. They actually wrote all that stuff about PERSONAL GOTHIC-PUNK HORROR seriously.


And as usual, when people say "World of Darkness", they mean "the old World of Darkness as it existed in the 90s", never mind that it's had several new iterations since then.

The new one's being called 'Chronicles of Darkness' now, for some copyright reason.



Well, a lot of the more modern changes have dumbed down D&D, and even more so made it a Nice Safe Place sort of game. Though, this is not unique to the game and has been a whole shift in society. 0E, 1E and 2E all cover the same basic hard fun game with lots of thing like death, loss and unfairness. By 2000, everyone wanted all the kidz to be safe and happy and protected and sheltered from the real world. And you can see the huge effect that had on 3E. Just about everything that might make a kidz sad was removed from 3E or watered down to just about nothing.


"Life sucks, so should games!" 9_9

Let me guess, instant save-or-dies built character, and you walked six miles uphill to the dungeon through the snow every day?

Insta-death is only character-building if said characters can be rolled up in 16 minutes or less.

Morty
2018-09-06, 06:19 PM
The new one's being called 'Chronicles of Darkness' now, for some copyright reason.

But it was the new World of Darkness for years, and when it became Chronicles of Darkness it wasn't for copyright reasons. It was a decision of the new owners of the property to distance it from the classic WoD. I know, since I'm one of those silly hipsters who actually play and enjoy it.

Mind you, the new World of Darkness wasn't developed by White Wolf, but by Onyx Path, but who cares, I guess.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-09-06, 06:39 PM
Insta-death is only character-building if said characters can be rolled up in 16 minutes or less.

I'd put the threshold much lower than 16 minutes, personally. Like ~ 2-3 minutes from idea to functional (if not totally filled out) character. Tops.

Max_Killjoy
2018-09-06, 07:30 PM
And no, White Wolf wasn't a satire. They actually wrote all that stuff about PERSONAL GOTHIC-PUNK HORROR seriously.


And as a player you'd better be at least as serious about your PERSONAL GOTHIC-PUNK HORROR, or you were having badwrongfun, and they'd make sure you knew that, too.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-09-06, 07:51 PM
White Wolf's greatest sin is that the game lies to you. It tells you that it's about personal horror, and then it gives you rules for playing Blade, badly.

Willie the Duck
2018-09-06, 08:25 PM
And as usual, when people say "World of Darkness", they mean "the old World of Darkness as it existed in the 90s", never mind that it's had several new iterations since then.

But it was the new World of Darkness for years, and when it became Chronicles of Darkness it wasn't for copyright reasons. It was a decision of the new owners of the property to distance it from the classic WoD. I know, since I'm one of those silly hipsters who actually play and enjoy it.
Mind you, the new World of Darkness wasn't developed by White Wolf, but by Onyx Path, but who cares, I guess.

Who cares about what, exactly? It's really not clear what point you are trying to make. The rest of us definitely went back to the original, since our point was that WoD had always been leftist (hard to argue that it had always been something if you don't go back to the first instance). It's not 100% clear that The Jack was referring to 90's WoD (since he seems to have played a version no one else recognizes). Regardless, if you prefer CoD (are CoD players hipsters? News to me.), and he is ragging on 90's WoD, isn't that better for you?


"Life sucks, so should games!" 9_9

Let me guess, instant save-or-dies built character, and you walked six miles uphill to the dungeon through the snow every day?

Insta-death is only character-building if said characters can be rolled up in 16 minutes or less.

To be fair, it was almost slightly brave to, right after 2 1/2 pages of everyone pounding down someone for self-congratulatory nerd elitism, go right back to the well and do a primo SNL Weekend Update's 'Drunk Uncle' impression.

Darth Ultron
2018-09-06, 09:54 PM
"Life sucks, so should games!" 9_9

Let me guess, instant save-or-dies built character, and you walked six miles uphill to the dungeon through the snow every day?

Insta-death is only character-building if said characters can be rolled up in 16 minutes or less.

More like ''life is hard, and so should be the game", and not a Safe Place.

D&D really swung to ''cartoon combat where the characters just get little boo boos and never die".

Mordaedil
2018-09-07, 01:09 AM
You did just prove my point though: your geek friends have played D&D. Though, too guess it depends what you will say a ''geek" is, too...

Again, not all of my geek friends have. Some of them only play computer games and thinks D&D sounds boring.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-09-07, 01:50 AM
Warhammer, Magic, and D&D are the holy trinity of nerdom in my opinion.

Mordaedil
2018-09-07, 02:11 AM
Admittedly, all of them do play one of those three. Or have at least in the past.

Anonymouswizard
2018-09-07, 02:32 AM
Mind you, the new World of Darkness wasn't developed by White Wolf, but by Onyx Path, but who cares, I guess.

Not quite true. 1e was mostly a White Wolf affair, I think Onyx Path came in sheet WW was bought by CCP and licenced it. 2e was developed entirely by Oynx Path, and is much better because it makes sure to forge it's own identity (including Requiem shaking off the least Masquerade influences, although I'm not super pleased about how Forsaken 2e became even more focused on the hunt). I have to admit that nWoD has the better system as well, varying target numbers should not be a thing.

Although I have too admit that I do like some oWoD enough to be willing to homebrew it to a more nWoD style ruleset.

GloatingSwine
2018-09-07, 06:36 AM
To be fair, while we mock American Football players for wearing armour, it does tend towards injuries that make it a lot more necessary. I believe it's due to the tackles, in AF it's a case of slamming into each other while in Rugby you pull them to the ground (there is a slam, but it's a lot less violent and is the only way to get the grip).

On the other hand, the main reason American Football tackles go in as hard as they do is because they're wearing armour.

Same reason boxers hit as hard as they do, because they have big padded gloves that mean they don't break their hands.

Without the armour you'd see a lot more rugby style tackling because anyone who tried to go in like they do now would have a dislocated shoulder, broken collarbone, or both by the end of the first quarter.

The Jack
2018-09-07, 08:59 AM
I got into it with 20th and mostly read revised. "satire" doesn't mean it's a parody, it means certain things are held up and looked at more closely to point out things wrong with it. Plus it's good fun to think the streetlamps stay broken to provide a better hunting ground for vampires, that schools are underfunded because evil...
Core rulebooks are often more tame than the supplements. Or maybe, being someone late to the party, I just find myself shifting through my own "best of" edition.

Now, whilst the books have always been left wing (as any longstanding satiric piece that attacks the shortcomings of society will be) they've usually been show-not tell. The first two editions of vampire said "morality is chosen, not ordained'
whilst the last edition gives us (paraphrased) "If you consider yourself X you should go home and rethink your life", explicitly trying to limit your audience that way so that you can comfortable preach to your choir... It's an incredible hack thing to do. Whatever happened to "show, don't tell"?

There's something so fascinating about exploring ideas that aren't your own in a roll-playing environment; What are you going to explore in a safe space?

Frozen_Feet
2018-09-07, 01:47 PM
Meh. Since when has there been a "nerd culture" and since when has it been a positive label?

It just sounds to me like a vaguely insulting catch-all category for those hobbies that are too intellectually demanding, too boring or too niche to appeal to the mainstream. Meaning it contains a whole lot of people and hobbies that have nothing in common besides being unpopular.

In that respect, D&D becoming "saturated" and ceasing to be a "nerd" thing would actually be a good thing... but if that's what got your knickers in a twist, I'm sorry to say you're both barking up the wrong tree and something like two decades late.

Why? Well here's the thing: D&D is already in everything, has been since the start of the videogame industry. D&D got its first chance in popularity at the same time and place where videogame design was taking its baby steps. As a result, D&D was among the first complex computerized games and it is singlehandedly responsible for several entire genres of videogames. There's a direct line from D&D to Rogue to Diablo, as well as from D&D to Wizardry to Final Fantasy, and from D&D to Ultima to World of Warcraft. Just to name a few obvious examples.

In addition, D&D tropes have spun off from gaming to various tangential media, from literature, to animation, to comic books etc.

The joke? Go look the amount of people who, say, play World of Warcraft. Now compare it to the amount of people who play 5th edition D&D. Now add people who play Final Fantasy, or Persona, or any other popular CRPG to WoW's tally.

It should become glaringly apparent that the other media that spun off from D&D have become vastly more accessible, popular and lucrative. Tabletop RPGs have remained a niche hobby, and I'm pretty sure they will remain so. Why? Because playing games like these on the tabletop is increasingly obsolete. Advancements in information technology benefit those other media more, than they benefit tabletop games. Pretty much any statement in the form "you can do X in tabletop RPGs but not in videogames" that held true in the 70s, 80s or early 90s can and will be challenged by modern game design and technology.

Tanarii
2018-09-07, 04:02 PM
It should become glaringly apparent that the other media that spun off from D&D have become vastly more accessible, popular and lucrative. Tabletop RPGs have remained a niche hobby, and I'm pretty sure they will remain so. Why?Because getting 3-5 friends together around a table for 3-4 hours is an incredibly hard thing to accomplish. It's even harder to do it on an on-going basis instead of on-shots. Even in high school and college, when its most likely, it still takes a fairly dedicated group.

I can throw together a board game weekend 1/2 day from any number of friends, associates and vaguely known contacts on fairly short notice. Heck, as little as 1-2 weeks heads up even with all post-college age personal friends. Getting an on-going regular group for TRPGs that doesn't flake out after 4-5 sessions has always required that I either join official play, or run an open table game myself out of game shops. And I have a large roster or contacts for them.

Ongoing continuous TRPG games require a different level of dedication on a whole group level, in your local area.

Darth Ultron
2018-09-07, 08:32 PM
It should become glaringly apparent that the other media that spun off from D&D have become vastly more accessible, popular and lucrative. Tabletop RPGs have remained a niche hobby, and I'm pretty sure they will remain so. Why? Because playing games like these on the tabletop is increasingly obsolete. Advancements in information technology benefit those other media more, than they benefit tabletop games. Pretty much any statement in the form "you can do X in tabletop RPGs but not in videogames" that held true in the 70s, 80s or early 90s can and will be challenged by modern game design and technology.

The silly ''pew pew" video games will never replace a real in person live RPG. It's like saying people will only listen to silly digital ''beep beep" recorded music and never go to live concerts.



Ongoing continuous TRPG games require a different level of dedication on a whole group level, in your local area.

It is really not that hard for everyone. If a person wants to do something, amazingly they can make the time to do it.

Tanarii
2018-09-07, 11:41 PM
It is really not that hard for everyone. If a person wants to do something, amazingly they can make the time to do it.
Exacly. TRPGs require making time, and doing it as a coordinated group.

There are, of course, some video game players in some video games that do exactly that. But it's not a requirement for entry into the genre in the first place. You can be a video gamer without any such thing.

I make no judgement on anything here. I'm just saying the bar to enter into TRPGs is higher. Just as the bar for being a reader used to be lower than that of a video gamer, because of relative costs.

BeerMug Paladin
2018-09-08, 06:15 AM
Not that I really want the topic to drift this way, but I feel the need to point out the trivial case that games (like any artwork, really) can be construed to promote ideas or agendas. The ones that do so without being nakedly obvious about their influences are a lot more insidious than ones which do so in a clumsy, or obvious manner. Because they can get their audience to change their thinking without their audience being aware their thinking is being influenced.

That said, I like how in D&D-old-farts-edition, collecting wealth made you literally more powerful. But that came at the cost of living in ridiculous-deathtrap-universe. Then a latter edition happened. Stressing the former part while eliminating or severely curtailing the latter part. Those make a pretty fundamentally different relationship for the player to the game world.

Of course, I'm not really an art critic, so I never wrote (and never intend to write) an essay on this topic. I also think they just tried to build a toolset for a fun game system (with the ability for modular expansions, of course) and just wound up there as a result of their design decisions. It's just an amusing thought I had at the time.

Tanarii
2018-09-08, 09:38 AM
That said, I like how in D&D-old-farts-edition, collecting wealth made you literally more powerful. But that came at the cost of living in ridiculous-deathtrap-universe. Yeah, I liked the answer to "Who are the most powerful people in the world?" being: Those who braved the biggest dangers in the smartest way, extracting the maximum wealth while not dying. Adventurers indeed.

That said, there are plenty of cases where it breaks down. For example, any time you try to craft a fantasized historical campaign that focuses on things like Bronze Age heroics or chivalry or bushido or muskateering. Things other than the real world historical goals of getting rich and powerful.

Frozen_Feet
2018-09-08, 11:45 AM
Because getting 3-5 friends together around a table for 3-4 hours is an incredibly hard thing to accomplish.

A technological problem with a technological solution, which used to be shared by multiplayer videogames. If you don't associate the problem with videogames, that's a testament to how much better videogames have gotten at using technology to solve the problem, as compared to RPGs.

---


The silly ''pew pew" video games will never replace a real in person live RPG. It's like saying people will only listen to silly digital ''beep beep" recorded music and never go to live concerts.

You've demonstrated elsewhere that you don't know a thing about videogames, now you demonstrate you don' t know a thing about contemporary recording technology and digital music.

Tanarii
2018-09-08, 01:05 PM
A technological problem with a technological solution, which used to be shared by multiplayer videogames. If you don't associate the problem with videogames, that's a testament to how much better videogames have gotten at using technology to solve the problem, as compared to RPGs.
That's my point. There is no technological solution to it for TRPGs. If you're not sitting at the same table, you've removed the core aspect that makes it a TRPG. That's what makes it harder.

Edit: you're right about multiplayer games having the problem at one time though. I remember playing hot-seat Alpha Centauri and having LAN parties for Diablo.

mephnick
2018-09-08, 01:57 PM
That's my point. There is no technological solution to it for TRPGs. If you're not sitting at the same table, you've removed the core aspect that makes it a TRPG. That's what makes it harder..

Definitely. There are people who actually say they prefer playing over Roll20 and I don't get that at all. It feels so soulless and empty. The few sessions we can only connect online there is always that feeling of "we should have just cancelled and waited."

ImNotTrevor
2018-09-08, 02:59 PM
Definitely. There are people who actually say they prefer playing over Roll20 and I don't get that at all. It feels so soulless and empty. The few sessions we can only connect online there is always that feeling of "we should have just cancelled and waited."

Just because I can't reach across the table and run my greasy, cheeto-dust hand across your shirt doesn't mean I can't speak to you and have fun playing the game together.

I am one of those people who doesn't mind either option, but acknowledges that online is WAAAAAY easier to set up.

I have played tabletop with people from Russia, the UK, the Netherlands, Canada, and every US timezone without needing to spend a small fortune on travel. That's pretty neat!
And of course, having all my stuff online means I don't need to haul anything, print anything, transfer notes, or bring spare pencils. It's less headache as a DM AND as a player. Since I'm low on time nowadays and online play is the least time consuming and most accessible option, of course I'm going to choose it.

And when I CAN play IRL, I will.

Darth Ultron
2018-09-08, 03:47 PM
You've demonstrated elsewhere that you don't know a thing about videogames, now you demonstrate you don' t know a thing about contemporary recording technology and digital music.

Well, If I was given the choice of a band/performer I like of ''A super cool digital MP6" or life time tickets to all their concerts. I know the one I would pick....

comk59
2018-09-08, 04:05 PM
Well, If I was given the choice of a band/performer I like of ''A super cool digital MP6" or life time tickets to all their concerts. I know the one I would pick....

That's such a false equivalence I don't even know where to begin.

flond
2018-09-08, 04:53 PM
Well, If I was given the choice of a band/performer I like of ''A super cool digital MP6" or life time tickets to all their concerts. I know the one I would pick....

You'd take the 20 Gary Cherone concerts? :P

LudicSavant
2018-09-08, 11:29 PM
Definitely. There are people who actually say they prefer playing over Roll20 and I don't get that at all. It feels so soulless and empty.

If your game feels soulless and empty, there may be an issue with how you're making use of the medium, rather than the medium itself.

Playing on Roll20 is different, and requires different methods and skills to be done well... just as adaptation from a book to a movie (or any medium to any other) isn't as simple as a copy/paste.

RedWarlock
2018-09-09, 12:54 AM
I've not done much online, but what I have has usually used Skype or Google Hangouts to have an open voice call. It gets way too easy to talk over someone else, or haltingly pause as two people start talking at once, or various other communication issues. Plus you lose that face-to-face element, gestures, silent looks, etc.

I've tried online board systems, but personally, I have a very large minis collection (mostly DDM, collected from 2004-2010) which a digital tabletop basically eschews entirely. I've also got hundreds of dungeon tiles (bought a bunch of them for cheap back when Borders closed), and several sets of dry-erase interlocking boards which I much prefer to use over a digital map. I put all this money into them, they're still good, but unless we rig up a camera over the board, it doesn't do much good on an online game. (We did try that a couple times, with a friend's ipad doing the voice call and sharing the camera, set on its folding case, but unfortunately, that friend recently passed away, and his tech went to his extended family.)

I greatly prefer in-person play.

Mordaedil
2018-09-10, 01:04 AM
I'm kinda resigned to play online on Roll20, because my friends are mostly from Denmark and occationally from the US. So in order to play at all, we have to agree to play on Saturdays and in the evening and mornings for everybody to have time and be available. The one time we all did get together, roughly a month ago, we were not really looking into playing, because there was so much else going on.

Then again, my hands are kind of a mess, so I can't really write with a pen well, so I have no issues with playing online, using Discord to talk and Roll20 to play. Talking over each other still happens, sure, but in my opinion it works out well because we are respectful to each other if we notice that we interrupted.

BRC
2018-09-11, 04:16 PM
I've been running an online game for a few years now, mostly over skype, with hopping over to Roll20 when we want to use a battlemap.

It can be a fun experience, and as far as using maps goes (I generally prefer Theater of the Mind, but I can't argue that some of my best encounters have been made possible by a tactical battlemap), Roll20 has a lot of advantages over anything I could do on a table as far as how much I get out of the effort I put in.

If I was one of those people with a ton of time, a massive collection of minis, and tons of cool terrain pieces, maybe. But, Roll20 gives me some easy tools. I can slap some trees and rectangles onto a map in five minutes and produce a functional, decent-looking battlemap.


That said, you definitely DO lose something when people are not sitting around the same table. It's harder to keep everybody's attention, technical issues disrupt the flow of play, and I find it's generally harder to draw players into roleplaying with each other. A lot of the tools we use to socially interact (eye contact, body language), are missing or limited over the internet. While Roll20 certainly has advantages, I'd prefer to be sitting around a table.

ross
2018-09-11, 07:11 PM
First of all, thank you for the advice.
Second, itīs not so much sucking because of itīs popularity, itīs more on the line that I think that some people only appreciate it because itīs cool now. If the same issue would be presented 20 years ago, those same people wouldnīt be interested in the game.
There is also the problem of the simplification of the system, but thatīs more personal opinion.

Yes, of course. Being interested in DnD is now low-risk, so more people are incentivized to try it. In fact, some people might actually gain status by being openly interested (or claiming to be interested) in DnD, which would have been inconceivable 20 years ago, when it was more or less metaphorical suicide. It's also a positive feedback loop; as it gains popularity, the risk of joining continues to fall, and so it becomes more popular, etc.

Poison_Fish
2018-09-12, 11:44 AM
Unfortunately the Other Change of Hobbit Fantasy & Science Fiction bookstore closed, which is saddening, but there's still Dark Carnival in Berkeley and Borderlands in San Francisco.

Dark Carnival is pretty great and full of nostalgia for me. Also Dr. Comics & Mr. Games is still around which was my young time hang out spot in the 90's.

Jama7301
2018-09-12, 11:49 AM
I was having difficulty parsing some of this thread, so forgive me if this is off the mark but, I don't see how D&D5e is a more saturated product than the bloat monster 3.5/PF is. Unless you're referring to player saturation, in which case... cool, more people want to play, which should mean more people will want to GM. Also cool.

Scripten
2018-09-12, 01:01 PM
I was having difficulty parsing some of this thread, so forgive me if this is off the mark but, I don't see how D&D5e is a more saturated product than the bloat monster 3.5/PF is. Unless you're referring to player saturation, in which case... cool, more people want to play, which should mean more people will want to GM. Also cool.

The OP was talking about the latter.

Jama7301
2018-09-12, 01:15 PM
The OP was talking about the latter.

Me, as a person, cannot fathom why that is a bad thing.

Max_Killjoy
2018-09-12, 01:46 PM
Me, as a person, cannot fathom why that is a bad thing.

We can perhaps conclude that this is because you are not a hipster, and do not subconsciously gauge the value/importance/coolness of a thing based on its exclusivity or outsider status or "ahead of the curve" status.

Willie the Duck
2018-09-12, 01:54 PM
Me, as a person, cannot fathom why that is a bad thing.

Apparently they weren't the right people or weren't doing it for the right reasons. Looking at the OP's posting history other than on this thread, I think it is safe to say that the OP was drive-by-trolling. Really we need to see if there's anything else worth saying to salvage the thread, or let it drift into discussion of online games or the like.

Nifft
2018-09-12, 01:55 PM
this is because you are not a hipster, and do not subconsciously gauge the value/importance/coolness of a thing based on its exclusivity or outsider status or "ahead of the curve" status.

I used to be a hipster, before it was cool.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-09-12, 02:22 PM
I used to be a hipster, before it was cool.

Why does the hipster have a burned lip?

He drank his coffee before it was cool.

Willie the Duck
2018-09-12, 02:33 PM
Okay, looking at the date on this thing (https://local.theonion.com/two-hipsters-angrily-call-each-other-hipster-1819568370), I suddenly feel very old.

KorvinStarmast
2018-09-12, 04:37 PM
Also, I think RPGs getting more mainstream has increased hygiene standards amongst the nerd crowd, which I am supremely thankful for. Yeah, the showering increase is a nice improvement over some of the oldenday events. :smalleek:
Thank for your reply.
Maybe Iīm just giving too much thought on the matter, But you were happy to unthinkingly post a wall of text/troll. You got 6 pages worth of response, so troll success is indicated.
Enjoy the golden age while it lasts. We'll all be regulated back into the basement soon enough. :smallwink: My house doesn't have a basement. Am I doomed, or do I need to find a friend whose house does? (Our local water table more or less precludes houses with basements ...)

Society is no more tolerant of the long nailed, unshowered individuals who I played MTG and D&D with as a teen. It just likes their stuff. I don't like MtG, but I get your point.

To paraphrase grognards.txt: "WHAAAAAHHH!!! If the ****ing JOCKS start playing D&D, I'll have to admit that I'm a social outcast because of my lack of hygiene and social skills, not because I like D&D!" Heh, Me and the other jocks whom I played with, D&D, back in the 70's were not aware that it wasn't our game. Who knew?
See, in this case the social norms are things like "don't be a jerk to girls just because they're girls, shower every two to three days, wear clean clothes every day, brush your teeth in the morning and evening, brush/comb your hair if it's long enough for that to matter."

Like, it's not stamping out a unique nerd culture here, it's basic hygiene and social skills. Some guys are just mad because they can't hide behind D&D to explain their conscious decision to refuse to look after themselves to a basic level anymore. Snort. That got a laugh out of me.

And yes, I'm one of the new-fan jock-gamers. Sorry. Welcome aboard, we've been with this game all along. :) :smallcool:

The game store weirdo is a bad stereotype, but damn..I've met some real ****ing weirdos trying to do things at game stores that I would never meet at work, on a soccer team, or running club. The fact that some of these people from other areas in my life may also be interested in RPGs and video-games is revolutionary and has only made my life and hobby better. Yeah.

You were very polite, but the actual message you were conveying was rather toxic. It was a troll, as I see it.

To all those worried about the jocks stealing their D&D I've got an elegant solution. Who wants to start a GiantITP rugby team? 35 years to late for me, sorry.

Ronnocius
2018-09-12, 09:21 PM
Not sure if I have caught everything in the original post as it is sort of incoherent (paragraph breaks are your friend, blocks of text are not).

I empathize to some degree because (assuming I am understanding the purpose of the post correctly), it is hard to accept that things you were once judged/shamed/etc for are not considered 'totally cool dude!' However I choose to view it positively, as it means there are far more players to the game which is definitely beneficial to the game itself and (in my humble opinion) nerd culture in general. I'm sure that you will be able to find some like minded fellows similar to yourself to geek out with. Happy gaming!

Devils_Advocate
2018-09-18, 06:44 PM
So, if nerds are analytical about stuff, geeks are enthusiastic about stuff, and hipsters are elitist about stuff, does that leave "dorks" as the term for social outcasts? With the relevant note that these are intersecting categories, of course.


I find the complaints about 5e being “dumbed down for the casuals and kiddies” to be kinda strange, as someone who started in 2e AD&D (toward the very tail end of it, granted, although I wasn’t a fan of the “Players’ Option” series like Combat & Tactics that came out around then and didn’t use them much) and find it to feel more like a throwback to the D&D I grew up with in spite of the huge difference in mechanics, whereas 3.5 and 4e didn’t feel like the same D&D, and have seen so many other TSR grognards pulled back into the D&D fold after years of grousing about 3e-and-later games.
That's a point. Obviously a company wants to sell a game to as many customers as they can, but more specifically, 5E was designed to appeal to as broad as possible a group of current and former players of Dungeons & Dragons. And making the rules simpler than in previous editions was done in part to make 5E more similar to even previouser editions!


Someomr please "Sig" that!
Be the change that you want to see in the world.

(Then again, if you think that you know this Someomr person well enough to judge that a particular quotes is perfectly in line with their particular sense of humor, who am I to say otherwise? :P)

Nifft
2018-09-18, 07:02 PM
you know this Someomr person

Probably just another Sindarin girl.

2D8HP
2018-09-18, 08:19 PM
Probably just another Sindarin girl.


Please, Sindarin lady.

Also, I'm totally a hipster, dig:


Purple Eisenhower mimeographs going through the stucco of my mind

Mustard gas, atomic blasts, squares are too sublime

*snaps fingers*


"Espresso"


Oh wait D&D...


"Purple Elminster scrolls going through the wattle and daub of my mind"


*snaps fingers*


"Mead"



Also, I hate sports.

Nifft
2018-09-18, 08:33 PM
Please, Sindarin lady.

I want to live with a Sindarin girl.

I could be happy
the rest of my life
with a Sindarin girl.

A dreamer of Adra
I run through the stars
You see us together
praising Ilúvatar
My Sindarin girl.

Ten dwarven axes
a kid with a ring
The dragon relaxes
and dreams until spring
'bout his Sindarin girl.

A dreamer of Adra
I run through the stars
You see us together
praising Ilúvatar
My Sindarin girl.

Eru sent me Valar now
I'm gonna break it somehow
I need another ring
You see your hobbits love to sing
Yeah...yeah...yeah.

2D8HP
2018-09-18, 08:59 PM
I want to live with a....

.....hobbits love to sing
Yeah...yeah...yeah.


:eek:

In awe

Devils_Advocate
2018-09-19, 11:14 PM
Upon further reflection... Dorks are just socially inept without necessarily being disliked, right? I think that the relevant descriptor for social outcasts is just "unpopular".

Incidentally, I just noticed that my parenthetical reply to 2D8HP includes the phrase "a particular quotes", in accordance with Muphry's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry%27s_law).

TexAvery
2018-10-22, 09:25 PM
If I may be indulged...

In a former life I was a car guy. Certain cars are more popular in their segments because of a variety of factors, of course. The thing that boggled my mind was the number of guys who would insist they didn't want a particular popular car specifically because it was popular. Nevermind if it was the best for the task.

The current other side of my life is running and triathlon Over there, it's the opposite: the majority wants to ride the same bikes as everyone, on the same wheels, and run in the same shoes. If someone doesn't conform, the peer pressure comes on stronk. Further, over the last few years, the participation rates in marathon and triathlon have declined by ~10%, and a lot of people are apoplectic because (as near as I can figure out) fewer participants means less social validation. On the other hand, I don't mind a smaller field with more dedicated participants.

Edit: Hit post too soon.

That's all a long way of saying that it's silly to base your selection of hobby (or whatever else) on others or their preferences. You do you, and let others do as they will. RPGs are nowhere near oversaturated, and "appropriation" is a great big flagstone of good intentions.

And that said, of course, bullying is terrible, but also is never about what you actually do. It can be described as either very simple or very complicated, but the truth is you're almost never bullied because of what you do, even though that's what will be used as a topic for the bullying.

The Jack
2018-10-23, 09:10 AM
I wanna rant about The Elder Scrolls series for a moment, because I think it's relevant.

Nobody cares for TES 1 so let's leave that out.

Tes II daggerfall was super hardcore in mechanics and had plenty of unique ideas that didn't get carried over to sequels. It was very popular but at the time the gaming market was very small.

TES III Morrowind was super detailed and had plenty of cool ideas that didn't get carried over. It was very popular but even though the gaming market had hugely increased since the days of II, it was nowhere near the behemoth of today.

TES IV Oblivion lost much of the detail and many of the ideas. It was very popular and gaming in general was entering mainstream at this point.

TES V Skyrim shat on the games that came before it and became much more 'gamey' and pulpy at the expense of world building and good story. It was incredibly popular, but gaming in general was incredibly popular at this point.


I want to know why things become so lacking in identity, because I think TES would have remained incredibly popular if they'd just built upon II or III, it didn't need to become skyrim, it would've sold incredibly well with the rise of the market anyway.


Although I hold these views, I do believe 5e to be largely, though not entirely, superior to 3rd edition in mechanics.

Mordaedil
2018-10-24, 01:24 AM
Focus testing and development for consoles mostly, in terms of Oblivion and Skyrim.

While Morrowind received an X-box port, it got a lot of negative feedback for being difficult to play on the console, leading to improvements being considered for Oblivion. A common complaint about Morrowind was the lack of responsiveness for combat feeling right, so they experimented until they got a more positive reception and their focus groups responded more positively to how Oblivion turned out, so they went that way. Turns out it was still not quite right, so Skyrim went further and made it even more streamlined. Consoles being played on TV screens lead to the userface being as it is.

As for Daggerfall -> Morrowind, those decisions were entirely practical. Daggerfall used a lot of procedural generation (which they did locally once and then shipped that seed they generated as the game) but generally the game was a 2-dimensional fare, despite having climbing, jumping and dungeons that spiraled on top of itself, the overworld itself was very flat and generic. The only way they could have depth was to make placeables that got replaced after the fact. The reduced complexity came with the desire to make the entire game 3D and be something you walked from one end to another without a fast-travel system.

A larger emphasis was also put into story, which leads us to CHIM.

Anonymouswizard
2018-10-24, 09:16 AM
TES III Morrowind was super detailed and had plenty of cool ideas that didn't get carried over. It was very popular but even though the gaming market had hugely increased since the days of II, it was nowhere near the behemoth of today.

TES IV Oblivion lost much of the detail and many of the ideas. It was very popular and gaming in general was entering mainstream at this point.

TES V Skyrim shat on the games that came before it and became much more 'gamey' and pulpy at the expense of world building and good story. It was incredibly popular, but gaming in general was incredibly popular at this point.

Focusing on these three, because they're the three I've played.

Morrowind is my favourite, because it has the most alien landscape, the least handholding (it took playing through the tutorial three times for me to understand how to begin the main quest), no annoying lockpicking minigame, and things like levitation are just fun. It also feels like it handles the lore better, in Oblivion and Skyrim I felt thrown into stuff I only understood because I wikied it, while in Morrowind I learnt a bit more gradually. It is optimised for PC play, and on it is highly enjoyable, but I can't imagine what the console version must have been like. This is the one I come back to, after a bit of modding to make the bodies smoother.

Oblivion suffered from a much more open map (note that despite being bigger it could feel a lot smaller due to the lack of detours), having a skill-based lockpicking system over a Skill based one, and the fact that I was being thrown into Oblivion without much warning. Oh sure, now I know that it wasn't that bad, but I was still confused as to why the game thought some level 3 smuck with basic equipment could save people from the hordes of hell (did I mention how I'm not that fond of level scaling?). Oh, and the landscape was much less interesting, if I wanted to explore the forest I'd go back home! Isn't it supposed to be a jungle? On the plus side I played it on console and it was somewhat enjoyable, although I still think I'd have preferred the PC version (if only for mods).

Let us now take a moment to mourn the loss of levitation, teleportation, and other spells that helped you to get around the map. I loved them in Morrowind, and hated how Oblivion had removed them. It meant that I would invest in some skills just to have more tools to move around the map.

Skyrim I have a love/hate relationship with. I hate the lack of stats beyond Health/Stamina/Magicka (I think I ended up pumping everything into Health with one character and not seeing a major issue), and didn't really feel like the Perks added that much to the game (also I'd have preferred if I'd have had to seek out trainers to get them). I love that the world feels more explorable and that I have to detour more, and how it isn't a forest. Oh, and I'm also not fond of the dragons, the amount of focus the dragons have had from people I know, and the sheer ammount of annoyance fighting a dragon can be. I feel like while this game is the most popular of the series, it's for the wrong reasons (the spectacle and ability to be uber powerful rather than the lore and world). Although as a Morrowind fan I might just be implanting lengths of wood in my rear end.