[3.5] Gestalt Idea: Sublime Chord/RKV(/JPM?)

[ezekielraiden]

Someone's pitched a concept to a prospective DM of "gestalt, but no tier-1 classes, mixing together different subsystems," intending to go to Epic level. I've been eyeing Sublime Chord for a while, and everyone seems to rave about the Ruby Knight Vindicator. My priorities are, more-or-less in order of importance from greatest to least:
Finish Sublime Chord (for 9th level spells)
Maintain full BAB or as close as possible (ideally missing no more than 1 point of BAB)
9th level divine spellcasting
Highest possible Initiator level and maneuvers/stances known
Good ways to use Bard abilities to buff everyone else

Assuming relaxed requirements with regard to specific deities, the current (very loose, no specific levels assigned) build I have right now is:
Bard/Virtuoso/Sublime Chord ((Crusader 1 squeezed in here somewhere, to qualify for RKV))
Favored Soul/Soldier of the Light 2/RKV

Main reason I'm looking at Soldier of Light 2 is that it gives all the best benefits of Paladin 4 in two levels, especially Turn Undead to qualify for RKV; since it's 3.0 material, I may instead take Sacred Exorcist 1 at the same level as Crusader 1 (to maintain full BAB). I'm also curious as to whether people think it'd be worthwhile to go into Jade Phoenix Mage and/or Abjurant Champion.

Overall, I want a character who has a good response to just about anything, and a pretty deep bag of tricks. The story I'm visualizing is a Lesser Aasimar, who intensely reveres Bahamut; he undergoes the Rite of Rebirth to become a Dragonborn of Bahamut (-2 Dex, +2 Con, Cha, Wis is pretty much perfect for this build). High Cha and Con, sufficient Wis, moderate Int. Probably using Slippers of Battledancing at some point because, y'know, not needing Str for attacks is pretty awesome.

[Lotheb]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm
Gestalt characters normally can't take two prestige classes at once, and it's reccomended that dual progression prestige classes like RKV and JPM are banned, so check with your DM on those.

If you can have it all then keep in mind that JPM loses two levels of spellcasting (at 1 and 6), so you'd need to take your first level in that before your first level in Sublime Chord to get 9th level spells by level 20. That being said sublime chord's best class ability is it's casting by miles so some other prestige class advancing that is probably better.

EDIT: keep an eye on your skill points, the prereqs for Sublime Chord, and RKV are 64 ranks (fortunately the skill ranks required for soldier of light and virtuoso all overlap)

[ezekielraiden]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm
Gestalt characters normally can't take two prestige classes at once, and it's reccomended that dual progression prestige classes like RKV and JPM are banned, so check with your DM on those.

Yeah, still waiting for DM approval on stuff, so much of it remains 'up in the air.' But I will keep that in mind.


If you can have it all then keep in mind that JPM loses two levels of spellcasting (at 1 and 6), so you'd need to take your first level in that before your first level in Sublime Chord to get 9th level spells by level 20. That being said sublime chord's best class ability is it's casting by miles so some other prestige class advancing that is probably better.

Yep. Probably Virtuoso or Abjurant Champion. Though I may need to re-juggle my divine side...for some unknown reason I thought Favored Soul was a full-BAB class, not 3/4. May end up having to settle for losing up to 5 points of BAB :( On the bright side, that makes a Sacred Exorcist dip no longer a drop in BAB, so I'll be weighing if I can do that instead of Soldier of Light (which has even worse casting than Paladin!) I suppose "full Divine casting + full BAB" is a pretty steep expectation...though on the flipside, if I have to get into Epic levels to round out casting, perhaps that will make the prospective DM more inclined to approve? We'll see I guess.


EDIT: keep an eye on your skill points, the prereqs for Sublime Chord, and RKV are 64 ranks (fortunately the skill ranks required for soldier of light and virtuoso all overlap)
I'm pretty sure it will work out, but I will keep an eye on it. *Might* be a concern if I don't dip Sacred Exorcist correctly though, should I go that path--I think there's enough skill points available, but it might get tight in the level 7-10 range where I probably won't be taking levels in Bard.

[ezekielraiden]

Alright, been picking through things on and off tonight to see what I can squeeze out on the divine side. Although Soldier of Light is tempting, I'm weighing various options on multiple fronts.

1. Soldier of Light.
Pros: Full BAB, Divine Grace with 2 levels. Cons: Might as well be a non-caster PrC, deity-specific.

2. Sacred Exorcist.
Pros: Full casting progression. Cons: "Only" 3/4 BAB, basically zero other benefits.

3. Knight of the Raven.
Pros: Cool flavor(refluff potential), full BAB, dirt-easy entry apart from fluff, Sun domain. Cons: 9/10 casting, some less-than-useful bonus feats.

This was always going to be a trade-off. I'm just...not sure what's more worthwhile. I really like Knight of the Raven (especially if I can refluff the raven not-a-familiar as a dragonling or pseudodragon). And I suppose I don't need to max out RKV before Epic as long as I still get 9th level spells...hm.

Also, given the number of people proposing things that (almost surely) end up having two PrCs on either side of a gestalt, I don't think that's going to be a concern. I will still ask the DM just to be sure.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't think there's a lot of synergy between Sublime Chord and Ruby Knight Vindicator. They're both good classes, no question about that, but they don't have much to offer one another. Plus the whole dual-prestige thing being potentially cheesy.

I'd recommend something like crusader 4/knight of the raven 3/ruby knight vindicator 7//divine bard 5/crusader +2/divine bard +1/marshal 1/paladin 2/divine bard +3. Take the feats as they're listed for the build in my signature, but move up Song of the Raven to level 1, and drop Extra Music. You can get Song of the Heart as 6th-level bard bonus feat, too, so that'll free up your 3rd- and 12th-level feat slots--you can just move up the 15th and 18th.

At that point, you're ECL 14 with 14th-level divine bard casting, 19th-level Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration 9/day, IL 13.5, CHA to saves, CHA to X for the entire party (marshal aura--pick one that goes with your party*), and Divine Impetus. With Chaos Music, you only need one more level of bard or crusader to max out IC.

The last six levels can be filled with bard//crusader, or you can continue Knight of the Raven (the 7th-level ability isn't bad) or RKV (no further abilities, just casting/maneuvers), or you can go Ordained Champion (somewhat better for clerics).


Oh, and make sure your KotR raven is white. White Raven is, after all, the discipline of leaders.


*From dipping marshal 1, you can get (amongst other options) either +CHA to damage rolls when flanking or +CHA to damage rolls when charging (for all allies within 60'). White Raven stances, gained from crusader maneuvers, can get you either +IL to damage rolls when charging (to all allies within 60') or +1/2 IL to damage rolls when flanking (when you flank the creature). You can provide some pretty crazy boosts (if the +14 to-hit and damage and the +14d6 bonus damage didn't tip you off) and certain types of people might be very happy to take advantage, i.e. barbarians and rogues.

[ezekielraiden]

I don't think there's a lot of synergy between Sublime Chord and Ruby Knight Vindicator. They're both good classes, no question about that, but they don't have much to offer one another. Plus the whole dual-prestige thing being potentially cheesy.

I'd recommend something like crusader 4/knight of the raven 3/ruby knight vindicator 7//divine bard 5/crusader +2/divine bard +1/marshal 1/paladin 2/divine bard +3. Take the feats as they're listed for the build in my signature, but move up Song of the Raven to level 1, and drop Extra Music. You can get Song of the Heart as 6th-level bard bonus feat, too, so that'll free up your 3rd- and 12th-level feat slots--you can just move up the 15th and 18th.

At that point, you're ECL 14 with 14th-level divine bard casting, 19th-level Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration 9/day, IL 13.5, CHA to saves, CHA to X for the entire party (marshal aura--pick one that goes with your party*), and Divine Impetus. With Chaos Music, you only need one more level of bard or crusader to max out IC.

The last six levels can be filled with bard//crusader, or you can continue Knight of the Raven (the 7th-level ability isn't bad) or RKV (no further abilities, just casting/maneuvers), or you can go Ordained Champion (somewhat better for clerics).


Oh, and make sure your KotR raven is white. White Raven is, after all, the discipline of leaders.


*From dipping marshal 1, you can get (amongst other options) either +CHA to damage rolls when flanking or +CHA to damage rolls when charging (for all allies within 60'). White Raven stances, gained from crusader maneuvers, can get you either +IL to damage rolls when charging (to all allies within 60') or +1/2 IL to damage rolls when flanking (when you flank the creature). You can provide some pretty crazy boosts (if the +14 to-hit and damage and the +14d6 bonus damage didn't tip you off) and certain types of people might be very happy to take advantage, i.e. barbarians and rogues.

It's definitely something to think about. I'm kind of happy with what I'd found, but I agree that the synergy is...slim, as it is with most theurge-types. I may or may not do as you've advised in the end. Suppose it will depend, in part, on what the rest of the party is.

Definitely having a white raven if I can't refluff it as a dragony thing (I just love dragons too much!)