3.5e looking for up to pun pun level broken items

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Hello guys :)

A friend of mine mine got into a 3.5e game were they start at super high level.

He came to me for help with building his PC and I told him to ask his DM is pun pun level of power is acceptable(I wanted to see some books in the air) and is DM said yes(I was surprised) as long as it is raw(and pun pun is not pure RAW so it is not good).

For now he have an amulet of natural armor and natural weapons at max non epic level, a item of at will true strike as a free action and a at will psionic minor creation for black lotos extract and a continuous item of protection from good.

He have a ridiculously high stats(40-50 at high and 15-20 at dump stats, he have a limit for a single stat).

He is a TN Beguiler level 12 and a Succubus.

What do you think he should add?

How much do you think a rod of irresistible spell metamagic should cost(not RAW but a cost and explanation on how to get there, I don't want him to show his)?
For exsemple:
Metamagic, Empower, greater is 73k and Empower is 2 spell levels higher.
Metamagic, Maximize, greater is 121.5k and 3 Spell levels higher.

((121.5/3)/(73/2))*(121.5/3)*4=179.753k will be the cost of a +4 metamagic greater version.
I don't think it is right but that all I can think of.

***
It have to be PURE RAW LEAGEL. The item creation rules can be used.

Pls use the items I provided ad examples for suff his DM will allow without any problem.

I am trying to help him get a fun character that he will enjoy from.
He want to be sneaky and seductive.

PUN PUN level of power is exepteble but is not needed, it is here for you to know that the sky is the limit.

Sorry for my English, I will fix it when I will get some time(English is my second).

[Malphegor]

In theory, I think potions made with Brew Potion could be abuseable if you have a delivery mechanism beyond just drinking it

RAW it is any spell of level 3 or lower that can target one or more creatures, but ingestible form.

It’s probably intended for potions of Fly, Fox’s Cunning, and other buffs, but if used offensively, you now have a liquid version of a scroll that applies the spell to the one drinking it, no aiming required.

I think that if there is some equivalent to a spraycan or a squirtgun (does breathing in count as ingesting?) in some book somewhere (maybe a book for rogues would have one for poisons?), you might be able to have a ton of specific targeted spells now a cone attack and potentially be more useful.

[eggynack]

Pretty sure that, with the possible exception of some of the specific weird abilities that you can make up for yourself, pun-pun is wholly RAW. Pun-pun has infinite power, so the only item that has pun-pun levels of power is a candle of invocation, because that's what allows for pun-pun. Or any other gate allowing item, I suppose. I'm not really sure, meanwhile, why you're talking about all these custom magic items. They are decidedly not RAW, given that they're based purely on ambiguously legal guidelines, and this theoretical rod of irresistible spell isn't even based on those guidelines, so it's doubly not RAW.

@Malphegor: Not precisely what you're talking about, but you may be interested in the skull talisman from frostburn. It has a weird item breaking method of spell activation, as well as no limit on spell level.

[OgresAreCute]

Use Pazuzu to wish for a candle of invocation, then get infinite wishes.



Pretty sure that, with the possible exception of some of the specific weird abilities that you can make up for yourself, pun-pun is wholly RAW. Pun-pun has infinite power, so the only item that has pun-pun levels of power is a candle of invocation, because that's what allows for pun-pun. Or any other gate allowing item, I suppose. I'm not really sure, meanwhile, why you're talking about all these custom magic items. They are decidedly not RAW, given that they're based purely on ambiguously legal guidelines, and this theoretical rod of irresistible spell isn't even based on those guidelines, so it's doubly not RAW.

@Malphegor: Not precisely what you're talking about, but you may be interested in the skull talisman from frostburn. It has a weird item breaking method of spell activation, as well as no limit on spell level.

At least the version of Pun-Pun I've seen uses Divine Minion to qualify for Master of Many Forms, which is dodgy at best.

[Cosi]

Pretty sure that, with the possible exception of some of the specific weird abilities that you can make up for yourself, pun-pun is wholly RAW.

Making up abilities is, IMO, more clearly RAW for Pun-Pun than giving all existing abilities. Manipulate form says "an ability" and then gives a bunch of abilities as examples that are a) new and b) tiny and irrelevant. The idea that you can get relevant abilities, but you can only get ones that exist, is the exact opposite of what the text of the ability suggests. I think you can make the argument that the trick works, but it seems pretty weak to me.

[OgresAreCute]

Making up abilities is, IMO, more clearly RAW for Pun-Pun than giving all existing abilities. Manipulate form says "an ability" and then gives a bunch of abilities as examples that are a) new and b) tiny and irrelevant. The idea that you can get relevant abilities, but you can only get ones that exist, is the exact opposite of what the text of the ability suggests. I think you can make the argument that the trick works, but it seems pretty weak to me.

Manipulate Form does specifically say "A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it." Seems very un-ambiguous to me.

[Cosi]

Manipulate Form does specifically say "A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it." Seems very un-ambiguous to me.

Again, that's a reasonable reading. But it's not reasonable to say that you're going to ignore the standards set by the examples for power, and then assume a totally unsupported restriction to existing abilities.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Pretty sure that, with the possible exception of some of the specific weird abilities that you can make up for yourself, pun-pun is wholly RAW. Pun-pun has infinite power, so the only item that has pun-pun levels of power is a candle of invocation, because that's what allows for pun-pun. Or any other gate allowing item, I suppose. I'm not really sure, meanwhile, why you're talking about all these custom magic items. They are decidedly not RAW, given that they're based purely on ambiguously legal guidelines, and this theoretical rod of irresistible spell isn't even based on those guidelines, so it's doubly not RAW.

@Malphegor: Not precisely what you're talking about, but you may be interested in the skull talisman from frostburn. It has a weird item breaking method of spell activation, as well as no limit on spell level.

The castom magic items rules are rules.
And they are written so I can say they are RAW.

Thr DM is able to change them as they this is also RAW.

It is written in the castom magic item rule that they are for the DM to use and change.

If the DM is ruling that the player can use them then it is still pure RAW to use them.



I think I wasn't clear enough, I meant that PUN-PUN is the limit, stuff weaker then him are still good.

I will edit the first post.

[Lotheb]

A metamagic rod of quicken is 35,000/75,500/170,000 gp for a lesser/medium/greater rod, and that's another +4 metamagic

[The Viscount]

If you're making crazy items, save on money by following in Tippy's footsteps and make a bunch of spell traps. They're cheaper than the formulas for regular items, and you can make them reset easily, just pick whatever benefcial spell you like.

[Telonius]

I wouldn't call it "pun-pun" levels of broken, but Dust of Sneezing and Choking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking) is one of the most infamously under-priced items for what it does. Almost any living foe is going to be Stunned for 5d4 rounds, no save. (If you can't kill or incapacitate a foe in a minimum of 5 rounds, you should be running away). Immunity to stunning is relatively rare, outside of Types that are immune (Undead, Construct, Ooze, and Plant). Third Eye Clarity, Iron Heart Surge, and a couple other random things. So you're getting an nearly-guaranteed auto-kill for 2400 gp. Many DMs ban this item for good reason.

[Jack_Simth]

The castom magic items rules are rules.They're Guidelines, actually, but that's largely irrelevant....

Still...

OK. So:
Step 1: Simulacrum or Ice Assasin (Frostburn) of an Efreeti (advanced, if going the simulacrum route, so that the end result still has ten hit dice). Scrolls are fine.
Step 2: Have the Efreeti grant you three wishes, catch-free (you're it's master due to simulacrum/ice assassin casting, and it has nobody that even knows it exists to come after you)
Step 3: Wish for magic items (Magic item creation is on the safe list of wish).
Step 4: Wait a day for the Efreeti's spell-like to recharge.
Step 5: Go to step 2. Alt: Have one of the magic items at step 3 be another scroll of Ice Assasin / Simulacrum, and go to step 1.

Enjoy your arbitrarily-large number of XP-free wishes for arbitrarily large numbers of magic items.

[eggynack]

The castom magic items rules are rules.
And they are written so I can say they are RAW.

Thr DM is able to change them as they this is also RAW.

It is written in the castom magic item rule that they are for the DM to use and change.

If the DM is ruling that the player can use them then it is still pure RAW to use them.
That's not what RAW means. RAW is independent of any particular DM's decisions.



I think I wasn't clear enough, I meant that PUN-PUN is the limit, stuff weaker then him are still good.
Fair, I suppose, but still weird. Pun-pun is literally infinitely powerful. It's the one context where the essential mathematical fact that there is no number directly less than infinity, that infinity minus one is still infinity, might actually matter on more than a semantic level. What does it even mean for infinity to be a limit? If you can be any natural number less than infinity, power-wise, then the power level is fundamentally unbounded, which means, in turn, that you can access infinite power, which would theoretically put pun-pun right back on the table. I mean, it wouldn't, I guess, because that specific strategy is banned, but something at the same infinite level of power would presumably be fine.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

That's not what RAW means. RAW is independent of any particular DM's decisions.


Fair, I suppose, but still weird. Pun-pun is literally infinitely powerful. It's the one context where the essential mathematical fact that there is no number directly less than infinity, that infinity minus one is still infinity, might actually matter on more than a semantic level. What does it even mean for infinity to be a limit? If you can be any natural number less than infinity, power-wise, then the power level is fundamentally unbounded, which means, in turn, that you can access infinite power, which would theoretically put pun-pun right back on the table. I mean, it wouldn't, I guess, because that specific strategy is banned, but something at the same infinite level of power would presumably be fine.
From what I know RAW is "Rules As Written".
It is RAW to give the DM a decision but I think you are right.



Well, you can put him on a meter as the top number and everything else under it.

That way the fact that he is infinite doesn't have a place because you give him a valu.

Anyway, it can just mean that there is no limit because the limit is infinite and you will never reach it.

Because pun pun is every infinite I assume that every other infinite is less than pun pun.

[eggynack]

From what I know RAW is "Rules As Written".
It is RAW to give the DM a decision but I think you are right.
Indeed, it is RAW for the DM to have say, but any particular expression of that authority is not RAW. Otherwise, y'know, literally everything would be RAW.



Well, you can put him on a meter as the top number and everything else under it.
It's fine having pun-pun as infinity and everything else less than infinity. What's problematic is searching for a level of power directly beneath pun-pun. Because anything right underneath infinity is infinity.



Anyway, it can just mean that there is no limit because the limit is infinite and you will never reach it.
Limitlessness is literally what infinity is.


Because pun pun is every infinite I assume that every other infinite is less than pun pun.
I mean, it's not insane to think that pun-pun might constitute an uncountable infinity, and other D&D infinities might be countable, but that strikes me as a not true thing. Otherwise, there's just the one size of infinity.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The MIC's item combination rules are actually rules, but there are guidelines for creating items in the DMG.

I've been pushing this a lot, but how about this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook/page11&p=23285432#post23285432)? A psychoactive skin of proteus illithid humanoid skin graft with built-in 'possum pouch and hands/gloves that shrink and store stuff you hold in said pouch, which is enhanced to be the inner-size of an enveloping pit, with the move-action quality of a handy haversack? And as a device (from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood), it's non-magical. Just be sure to boost the skin's ML as high as possible for more forms. (Max 15 HD.)

[Goaty14]

A Starmantle Cloak (BoED), and a Ring of Evasion (SRD), and the consistent ability to hit DC 15 reflex saves makes you immune to damage via weapons. Even if Zeus himself descended from the heavens and hit you hard, you'd walk away scotch-free. (even without hitting those reflex saves, you're immune to nonmagical weapons)

[BloodSnake'sCha]

For everyone who helped me I am really thankful, it will help my friend to start the game and survive long enough for the DM to give him his own Homebrew Overpowered loot.




Indeed, it is RAW for the DM to have say, but any particular expression of that authority is not RAW. Otherwise, y'know, literally everything would be RAW.


It's fine having pun-pun as infinity and everything else less than infinity. What's problematic is searching for a level of power directly beneath pun-pun. Because anything right underneath infinity is infinity.


Limitlessness is literally what infinity is.

I mean, it's not insane to think that pun-pun might constitute an uncountable infinity, and other D&D infinities might be countable, but that strikes me as a not true thing. Otherwise, there's just the one size of infinity.
I am trying to write what I want but language barrier is stopping me.

I am trying to write something about Cardinal numbers but can't explain it in English(I know math from my mother(she is starting her doctorat) so I use to do math in Hebrew).

This discussion is really fun, I think it disserve its own thread.

[Jack_Simth]

A Starmantle Cloak (BoED), and a Ring of Evasion (SRD), and the consistent ability to hit DC 15 reflex saves makes you immune to damage via weapons. Even if Zeus himself descended from the heavens and hit you hard, you'd walk away scotch-free. (even without hitting those reflex saves, you're immune to nonmagical weapons)
You'll still need a way to avoid Nat-1's. I'm fond of Planar Touchstone(Cataloges of Enlightenment(Pride domain)) for that. Means a 1 in 400 chance when they try to hit you. You can also use Aura of Perfect Order for 1/round, or Action Before Thought for 1/encounter (a little more depending on build). These can be combined.

Downside is: No Scotch.