Do Spontaneous Casters gain spell slots as soon as they level up?

[Brutter]

The SRD gives a lot of details about how each type of class gets their spell slots, which spells can be prepared how often, but it doesn't really explain what happens with your spell slots as you level up. For classes that prepare spells, it doesn't matter, as you need to spend time resting and preparing spells, perhaps waiting until the right time of day.

But with Spontaneous Casters, they can use any of their open spell slots with any spell of the appropriate level or lower. They still need rest time and preparation to regain any used spell slots, but I don't think it's written what happens with newly gained spell slots.

So if, say, a level 9 Sorcerer was in an inescapable death trap, but there were also enough monsters in there to raise said Sorcerer to level 10, could they then kill the monsters and immediately cast Teleport to get out, or would they have to wait 8.25 hours to refresh their spell slots for the day?

[EldritchWeaver]

In theory, that issue applies to prepared casters as well. But since there is no ruling on that, this is effectively a GM issue. Some people allow immediately to use the new abilities, others require a rest.

[Anymage]

XP is generally given at the end of adventures. For many practical reasons, but for purist RAW that's what it says in the book. So unless you happen to end your adventure inside a slowly closing deathtrap (aside from the usual, terminal way), the point is moot.

[Brutter]

In theory, that issue applies to prepared casters as well.
Really? That doesn't make sense. Prepared casters have to select specific spells when they fill up their spell slots, they can't add new spells later in the day for empty spell slots, not without preparing again.

[Elkad]

My rule if you level up mid-day (or whatever smaller timeslice you are using).

As soon as XP is handed out, you get all your new abilities. However, everything with a use/quantity limit is expended until you can recover it.

New spell slots are used/empty, including spontaneous ones.
Your maximum hitpoints goes up, but your current total does not. (you could immediately top them off via healing of course)
Other perday abilities you gain (including more uses of existing ones) are not ready either.
Any existing limited-use abilities are filled at the prior level as well - so if you memorize Magic Missile at CL4, and then level to 5 and cast it, it's still CL4, because that's what you memorized it at.
A sorc filled his spell slots with CL4 power, so if he leveled to 5, he'd cast Magic Missile at CL4 as well.

So BAB and save bonuses come online immediately. As do feats, stat bonuses, and unlimited features like a Monk's AC bonus, or a Warlock's new invocation.

Note this has a LOT of holes in it.

From a mechanical standpoint, it's far better to only give out experience points at breakfast (or after a Long Rest in 5e terms)
Or require actual training time, like older editions.

[EldritchWeaver]

Really? That doesn't make sense. Prepared casters have to select specific spells when they fill up their spell slots, they can't add new spells later in the day for empty spell slots, not without preparing again.

Not sure if the rule for leaving spell slots free and prepare later is PF only (I couldn't find it in the SRD at least), but there are ways to convert spells spontaneously. Cleric and Druid for example.

[Anymage]

When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSelectionandPreparatio n)

[lbuttitta]

If this situation ever came up, I might do as follows: as soon as XP is assigned that would cause the character to level up, they gain all of their new spell slots. However, the number of spell slots expended for the day remains constant. For example, if a 5th-level sorcerer levels up after using 3 2nd-level spells and 4 1st-level spells, they would have 2 1st-level spell slots, 2 2nd-level spell slots, and 3 3rd-level spell slots available, and would have to choose new spells known.

[Bohandas]

When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSelectionandPreparatio n)

On a related note I would recommend ignoring the final three sentences of this rule as its only purpose that I can discern is to force a fifteen minute adventuring day

[Nifft]

Leveling up is assumed to take time between adventures (PHB, p.58), and the player is told that the DM will give XP at the end of each adventure (same page), so ... technically yes, but not relevantly yes.

It sounds like you're already modifying how XP accrues by handing it out mid-adventure.

[Zaq]

XP is generally given at the end of adventures. For many practical reasons, but for purist RAW that's what it says in the book. So unless you happen to end your adventure inside a slowly closing deathtrap (aside from the usual, terminal way), the point is moot.

Do you know what page that's on? I don't think I've ever actually seen true RAW text about that.

My gut instinct has always been to go with what's fun and interesting. If it would bog down gameplay and not be very interesting to have everyone level up mid-session, don't do that. If you're in that crazy death trap situation in the first post and it makes for an entertaining story to be able to fight until you suddenly gain enough XP to escape, then do that because it's fun.

I'm pretty sure that my group once used a mid-dungeon level-up as an in-day power boost to let them finish a quest with a final confrontation even though we would have been completely out of the necessary juice without the level-up. (That was a horribly constructed sentence, but I don't feel like taking the time to reconstruct it from the ground up. Sorry.) But the point is, that was fun and interesting and made a good story, so we went with it. Other times we've held off on leveling up mid-adventure and ended up halfway to the following level once we actually tally everything and claim our new abilities, even though we knew that we'd earned the level-up some time ago, because it made more sense to just keep going for a few different and only semi-related reasons.

Bottom line: I wouldn't automatically sneer at whichever choice you make as long as you're clear and deliberate about why you're making it.

[Unavenger]

As written, the answer seems simple: the limit is in how many spells you can cast per day. A sorcerer can, for example, "cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level". If you level up to level 4, have you used any of your second-level spells per day yet? No, you haven't.

Similarly, "First you must choose which spell to cast[...]

If you’re a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher[...] If you’re a bard or sorcerer, casting a spell counts against your daily limit for spells of that spell level, but you can cast the same spell again if you haven’t reached your limit."

Incidentally, Elkad's house-rule is just that: a house-rule. "A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell." Similarly, for paladins and rangers, "At 4th level and higher, her caster level is one-half her paladin level": not the class level you had when you woke up that morning.

But don't you have to ready your mind to cast your new spells? No:

"A sorcerer’s or bard’s class level limits the number of spells he can cast."
"Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which he spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies his mind to cast his daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh himself, the character does not regain the spell slots he used up the day before."

What about a wizard?

"A wizard’s level limits the number of spells she can prepare and cast."
"Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime."

So a wizard can fill slots that were empty because she never had them. What about a cleric or druid?

"A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once."
"The character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day."

What about some of the other weird spellcasting classes?

Artificers, Favoured Souls and fixed-list casters (Beguiler, Dread Necromancer...) work like sorcerers; they contain basically the same text.
Spirit shamans get extra slots but do not have a chance to retrieve more spells: "Like other spellcasters, a spirit shaman can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day[...] She can cast any spell she has retrieved at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level[...]Each spirit shaman must choose a time at which she must spend 1 hour in quiet meditation to regain her daily allotment of spells and bargain with the spirits for the specific spells she knows on that day."
Sha'ir get extra slots, so they can send their gen out to find more spells: "Like other Spellcasters, a sha'ir can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day."

What about everything else?

Psionic classes gain new power points and powers known immediately: "A psionic character’s level limits the number of power points available to manifest powers[...]each manifestation subtracts power points from his daily limit. [...] To regain used daily power points, a psionic character must have a clear mind. [...] Each time a psionic character attains a new level, he or she learns additional powers according to his class description."
Martial adepts learn new maneuvers immediately: "You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on Table 1–1. You must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it. See Table 3–1, page 39, to determine the highest-level maneuvers you can learn."
Shadowcasters learn new mysteries immediately and have a number of daily uses determined (indirectly) by level which grants them new uses immediately: "You know one mystery at 1st level and gain one additional mystery every class level. You can use each mystery you know a certain number of times per day"
Truenamers learn new utterances immediately: "You begin play knowing one utterance from the 1st level of the Lexicon of the Evolving Mind, and you gain one utterance from this lexicon at each truenamer level you attain." Truenamers don't have a daily use limit except one implied by their skill bonus.

In general, evidence points to you getting new abilities immediately. However, it does hint that the reason why characters learn new spells or powers is due to study or meditation between adventures, so this is unlikely to be deliberate.

[ericgrau]

The SRD gives a lot of details about how each type of class gets their spell slots, which spells can be prepared how often, but it doesn't really explain what happens with your spell slots as you level up. For classes that prepare spells, it doesn't matter, as you need to spend time resting and preparing spells, perhaps waiting until the right time of day.

But with Spontaneous Casters, they can use any of their open spell slots with any spell of the appropriate level or lower. They still need rest time and preparation to regain any used spell slots, but I don't think it's written what happens with newly gained spell slots.

So if, say, a level 9 Sorcerer was in an inescapable death trap, but there were also enough monsters in there to raise said Sorcerer to level 10, could they then kill the monsters and immediately cast Teleport to get out, or would they have to wait 8.25 hours to refresh their spell slots for the day?

100% DM's call. The DMG suggests various optional training rules. But you could totally do it epiphany style. Heck anime does it all the time. On the flipside some DM's might not let you level until you leave the dungeon and get a little downtime, even if you have way more xp than you need to level up. That's why there's the rule that says you're limited to 1 xp less than what you need for 2 level ups.

My opinion is to use at least a minimal version of various suggested training methods so my answer would be heck no. With all the suggested training methods and rules like the rule against retaining too much xp without leveling, I think they expect most DM's to at least do something for training. Your ruling or your DM's can be whatever you want. Including instant spells.

In the game I'm DMing I handwave it as unspoken training during down time as long as the players have access to other people. Even down time before level up. So my players can rest for the night and level by next morning, but only if they had access to a town or some such at least once since their last level up. So far a level has never been delayed in spite of severely limited down time. I basically told them all that logistical stuff happens but we don't track it unless it becomes obviously impossible. I might start tracking water in a desert, for example. And I make everyone carry food even though I doubt anyone is keeping an accurate tally of rations consumed. I more or less called the rule "Everybody poops, we just don't track it." I also made sure at least 1 PC had a poop shovel.

Thus I'd also recommend against instant leveling because it's a headache to do it mid combat. It's easier during a break, both in character and out of character.

[EldritchWeaver]

In the game I'm DMing I handwave it as unspoken training during down time as long as the players have access to other people. Even down time before level up.

Access to other people? Higher level people? If yes, how did the first guy belonging to a class level up in the first place?

[ericgrau]

Access to other people? Higher level people? If yes, how did the first guy belonging to a class level up in the first place?

Harder but far from impossible. Research, lone mountain training cutscene, whatever. More handwavy stuff. I'd also let a Wizard with access to a nice library access level up without town access. Etc. I keep it intentionally nonspecific. Actually my party did just visit a fantastic library in a dead town and most of them are partial or full spellcasters so I guess I'll keep on almost not tracking training.

They're also right at that level (for my world) where it's hard to find people higher level than them, so I'll probably allow some form of lone training during down time going forward too.

Even if you're using the optional training fee rules, that could be handwaved as lone research costs, advanced training dummies, etc.

[Buufreak]

Access to other people? Higher level people? If yes, how did the first guy belonging to a class level up in the first place?

I have always wondered this. Eventually there had to be a first of every class imaginable, unless that further gets handwaved in one way or another.

[Quertus]

I have always wondered this. Eventually there had to be a first of every class imaginable, unless that further gets handwaved in one way or another.

I am the first Chronomancer. I went back in time and trained myself.

[Nifft]

I have always wondered this. Eventually there had to be a first of every class imaginable, unless that further gets handwaved in one way or another.

It's quite possible to teach a student who is smarter than yourself.

It's quite possible to train a subordinate who has more skill and talent then yourself.

The idea that you must always find a higher-level character from your same class is just plain silly.

Also, it seems to have been a rhetorical straw-man -- the original post only talked about needing "other people" for training, not other people of any particular level.

[Malphegor]

Really? That doesn't make sense. Prepared casters have to select specific spells when they fill up their spell slots, they can't add new spells later in the day for empty spell slots, not without preparing again.

Well, unless you have Alacritous Cogitation, so one new empty slot could be used...

[EldritchWeaver]

Also, it seems to have been a rhetorical straw-man -- the original post only talked about needing "other people" for training, not other people of any particular level.

I did a conditional restriction on the OP, so in that subset of possibilities this is a real issue.

[blackwindbears]

On a related note I would recommend ignoring the final three sentences of this rule as its only purpose that I can discern is to force a fifteen minute adventuring day


On a related note I would recommend ignoring the final three sentences of this rule as its only purpose that I can discern is to force a fifteen minute adventuring day

GitP 3.5 boards:

Wizards are teir one, they can always do everything better and have no weaknesses, they always have the best spells prepared.

Also: Ignore any rules that would prevent this from being true.

[blackwindbears]

Access to other people? Higher level people? If yes, how did the first guy belonging to a class level up in the first place?

When you're the best there ever was it's harder to make further gains.

* Someone might not be better than you but might be better at teaching than they are at doing. This might take the normal amount of time, but such a coach is probably

* You train with other people almost as good as you, which might take say twice as long and be twice as expensive as when someone better is training you. (For fighters this might mean sparring, or training with weights, for wizards this might mean a correspondence by letter, or sending about the nature of magic and reality)

* If you have no access to a trainer, or others of your class progress is slow and happens only in fits and starts, only the most brilliant or talented folks can continue to make progress like this. It takes 5 times as long and costs twice as much.

[grarrrg]

If yes, how did the first guy belonging to a class level up in the first place?

Well, if we want to go back to the Ur-Wizard, I'd just say a deity was involved. Chances are the "goddess of Magic" knows how magic works.

(disclaimer: Cosmology may vary. Not applicable to all planes. If problem persists for more than three sessions consult a Profession(doctor). Possible side-effects include 'It was Orcus all along!')