Dead magic planes & Invoke Magic

[Chalhubard]

So, a peculiar scenario came up last week, where the party traversed a portal into a dead magic plane.

All fine and dandy, as they were supposed to retrieve a mcguffin and then slip back through the portal ASAP, however, the party's wizard came up with the Invoke Magic spell and some questions sprung from it.

Invoke Magic (Lords of Madness, Sor/Wiz 9) explicitly allows the caster to conjure up to a 4th level spell in a place where magic doesn't exist or function. It is cast as a swift action and lasts 1 round. Its text, however, implies once the second spell is cast, Invoke Magic ends. Which leads us to a few issues:



1. Suppose one could persist or extend Invoke Magic, would that mean that the time frame where one could cast a 4th level spell is the subject of said persist/extend, or would the caster be able to cast up to 4th level spells for as long as Invoke Magic lasts?


2. Could that persisted/extended Invoke Magic, as a preexistent magical conduit which would allow the ulterior casting of a spell, act in a way as to allow passive Supernatural abilities of the caster to function normally until Invoke Magic's duration expires?


3. As "dead magic" is a planar trait, suppose one were to cast Invoke Magic and held an Acorn of Far Travel (Drd 2, Rng 2), would the caster be able to ignore the dead magic trait and cast 5th and higher level spells?


4. If persistent/extend Invoke Magic is conjured and the caster had an Acorn of Far Travel in his possession, would she be able to continue casting under Invoke Magic's effects as long as no spells of 4th or lower level are cast?



5. If a caster had the Permanent Emanation epic feat linked to the Planar Bubble spell, would that function in a dead magic plane? If not, would Invoke Magic act as a conduit as in question 2 and allow it to kickstart the feat?



What would the collective wisdom of the Playground say to these?

[lbuttitta]

No, because invoke magic has a discharged effect and therefore cannot be Persisted.
See above.
No, because acorn of far travel only changes the effective terrain in which you cast the spell, not the plane for which planar traits apply for spellcasting.
See above.
The planar bubble would trigger normally, allowing the caster to use spells as normal.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

3. No, because acorn of far travel only changes the effective terrain in which you cast the spell, not the plane for which planar traits apply for spellcasting.
That's not what the spell says. It says "As long as you carry the acorn (and as long as the acorn is not stored in an extradimensional space like a bag of holding), you are considered to be standing under that oak tree's canopy (and thus within an area of forested terrain)." Yes, that does mean you are in a specific type of terrain, but it also means "you are considered to be standing under that oak tree's canopy," with all that this implies. Is there a hallow effect on the tree? Then you are affected. Is the area under the tree affected by planar traits? Then so are you. Is it a bonzai oak tree being carted around by a friend who moves into different areas with different effects that buff anyone standing under the tree? Then you get those benefits, as well.

[Leo_0210]

So, a peculiar scenario came up last week, where the party traversed a portal into a dead magic plane.

All fine and dandy, as they were supposed to retrieve a mcguffin and then slip back through the portal ASAP, however, the party's wizard came up with the Invoke Magic spell and some questions sprung from it.

Invoke Magic (Lords of Madness, Sor/Wiz 9) explicitly allows the caster to conjure up to a 4th level spell in a place where magic doesn't exist or function. It is cast as a swift action and lasts 1 round. Its text, however, implies once the second spell is cast, Invoke Magic ends. Which leads us to a few issues:



1. Suppose one could persist or extend Invoke Magic, would that mean that the time frame where one could cast a 4th level spell is the subject of said persist/extend, or would the caster be able to cast up to 4th level spells for as long as Invoke Magic lasts?
I'll start with my Knowledge (metamagic) according to RAW you could Extend but not Persist Invoke Magic, as it violates one of the key stipulations on the Persist Metamagic Feat:
Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged
however the Extension could only be feasibly extended to two rounds. The hiccup here is that Invoke Magic ends the moment the second spell is cast as per the spells description
This allows you the ability to cast a single spell of 4th level or lower, which then ends the spell's effect. so it seems the extended spell would grant you two rounds to start your casting but wouldn't cause the spark of magic to exist longer than the amount of time to start the second spell. you could stack the Repeat and Extend spells to grant you a total of a possible 3 rounds of access to the pool of magic (as the second casting happens during the following round no matter what) but thats some pretty high spell burn for a single spell.



2. Could that persisted/extended Invoke Magic, as a preexistent magical conduit which would allow the ulterior casting of a spell, act in a way as to allow passive Supernatural abilities of the caster to function normally until Invoke Magic's duration expires?
i feel that as long as these abilities fall under the context of the spells description (Level 4 spells or lower) it should be fine, however i would qualify that as using the spark of magic provided.



3. As "dead magic" is a planar trait, suppose one were to cast Invoke Magic and held an Acorn of Far Travel (Drd 2, Rng 2), would the caster be able to ignore the dead magic trait and cast 5th and higher level spells?
Again I go back to the original spells text, or our governing spell, Invoke Magic, it stipulates in its description that 4 level or lower qualification; in digging into the Acorn of Far travel, I don't see how it could possibly allow you to cast a higher spell level. I would have my druid pass the acorn to the ranger who for some unknown reason can tree stride a spell level earlier than they (who are truly bonded with nature). however this only gets the one person trough the tree, and if there are no trees in the vicinity then I don't think you could step through the acorn--though in theory you could postulate that since the acorn is considered the same tree that you could step out of the trunk of said tree.



4. If persistent/extend Invoke Magic is conjured and the caster had an Acorn of Far Travel in his possession, would she be able to continue casting under Invoke Magic's effects as long as no spells of 4th or lower level are cast?
I'm not sure I fully understand this question, having the acorn isn't casting the spell. I think you are asking this question under the assumption that they would be able to cast the 5th level or higher spell, which I believe there is no basis to allow, other than 'Rule Of Cool,' as it goes against the base spell description as mentioned in previous answers above. Also even if you go with the 'ROC' I would still consider any spell/spell-like ability cast as qualifying for dispelling Invoke Magic, as it has fulfilled its job in allowing the spark to exist long enough to cast the spell/ability.

I hope this helps, and I eagerly await other responses to see how others weigh in on the topic. Also, i want to know why the heck this party thought it would be a good idea to chase the macguffin into a dead magic plane. I'd firmly be a hard nope as the party wizard, "you want me to go where?! and do what exactly? you know its literally MAGIC what I do right?"

[sleepyphoenixx]

1. Suppose one could persist or extend Invoke Magic, would that mean that the time frame where one could cast a 4th level spell is the subject of said persist/extend, or would the caster be able to cast up to 4th level spells for as long as Invoke Magic lasts?
As ibuttita said it's discharged, so you only get one spell no matter the duration.


2. Could that persisted/extended Invoke Magic, as a preexistent magical conduit which would allow the ulterior casting of a spell, act in a way as to allow passive Supernatural abilities of the caster to function normally until Invoke Magic's duration expires?
No. Invoke Magic does what it says it does, and nothing else. Which is casting a single spell of 4th level or lower.


3. As "dead magic" is a planar trait, suppose one were to cast Invoke Magic and held an Acorn of Far Travel (Drd 2, Rng 2), would the caster be able to ignore the dead magic trait and cast 5th and higher level spells?
Since Acorn of Far Travel is not instantaneous it'd be suppressed by the dead magic trait of the plane. The point is moot.


4. If persistent/extend Invoke Magic is conjured and the caster had an Acorn of Far Travel in his possession, would she be able to continue casting under Invoke Magic's effects as long as no spells of 4th or lower level are cast?
See both previous questions. Invoke Magic only does what it says it does (a single spell of 4th level or below) and Acorn of Far Travel doesn't function on a dead magic plane.

5. If a caster had the Permanent Emanation epic feat linked to the Planar Bubble spell, would that function in a dead magic plane? If not, would Invoke Magic act as a conduit as in question 2 and allow it to kickstart the feat?
The first depends on your DM. Either answer is feasible. But again, Invoke Magic does not act as a "conduit" in any form. It does what it says it does.


That's not what the spell says. It says "As long as you carry the acorn (and as long as the acorn is not stored in an extradimensional space like a bag of holding), you are considered to be standing under that oak tree's canopy (and thus within an area of forested terrain)." Yes, that does mean you are in a specific type of terrain, but it also means "you are considered to be standing under that oak tree's canopy," with all that this implies. Is there a hallow effect on the tree? Then you are affected. Is the area under the tree affected by planar traits? Then so are you. Is it a bonzai oak tree being carted around by a friend who moves into different areas with different effects that buff anyone standing under the tree? Then you get those benefits, as well.

But just because you're considered to be standing under the oak tree doesn't mean you're not also considered to be standing where you actually are. That's kind of a necessity to act on the world around you.

Not that it matters in most cases since the Acorn of Far Travel spell would be suppressed on a dead magic plane anyway since it doesn't affect your gear (the acorn is the spells target, not you).
But even assuming you're casting AoFT with Invoke Magic to make it function no a dead magic plane you'd still be affected by the dead magic trait.

[Chalhubard]

Brilliant considerations, folks!

I guess all our collateral questions stemmed from trying to figure out the metaphysical implications of Invoke Magic in a dead magic plane, hence all the "magical conduit" or "magic spark" hypothesis.

As the spell states: "Range: Personal / Target: You", we conjectured it might, somehow, allow preexistent spells or effects to work for the duration of the spell, given the following wording:

You cause a flicker of magic to momentarily exist in a place where magic cannot normally function, such as within the are of an antimagic field, a dead magic area, or a null-magic plane.

Since said preexistent effects would not be discharging the spell per se - as the action of spellcasting was not taken under the duration of Invoke Magic - we thought it might allow ongoing spells (under 4th level) to still function for the remainder of Invoke Magic.



Is it a bonzai oak tree being carted around by a friend who moves into different areas with different effects that buff anyone standing under the tree?

Now, this would make a nice planar encounter.


I think you are asking this question under the assumption that they would be able to cast the 5th level or higher spell, which I believe there is no basis to allow, other than 'Rule Of Cool,' as it goes against the base spell description as mentioned in previous answers above. Also even if you go with the 'ROC' I would still consider any spell/spell-like ability cast as qualifying for dispelling Invoke Magic, as it has fulfilled its job in allowing the spark to exist long enough to cast the spell/ability.

I meant 5th or higher level spells if the Acorn could replicate the magic trait under its original oak tree.

All in all, its either spamming Invoke Magic for 4th level effects, or somehow finding a way to beat the dead magic trait (combined with Invoke); all we could find in that regard was the Acorn of Far Travel (2nd level effect) and Planar Bubble (7th level effect).

I could see a case for the Acorn as it is, indeed, a spell effect and not an item, though I see how it might be wrong, as sleepyphoenix pointed out. As for Planar Bubble, since it is a 7th level spell, it could not be Invoked, hence my question about Permanent Emanation.

Thoughts?

[sleepyphoenixx]

All in all, its either spamming Invoke Magic for 4th level effects, or somehow finding a way to beat the dead magic trait (combined with Invoke); all we could find in that regard was the Acorn of Far Travel (2nd level effect) and Planar Bubble (7th level effect).

I could see a case for the Acorn as it is, indeed, a spell effect and not an item, though I see how it might be wrong, as sleepyphoenix pointed out. As for Planar Bubble, since it is a 7th level spell, it could not be Invoked, hence my question about Permanent Emanation.

Thoughts?

Your magic being sharply limited is kinda the point of the dead magic trait. If it was so easy to circumvent there'd be little point.

The only thing that really lets you cast in dead magic planes is Initiate of Mystra, and it's considered cheese for a reason.

[unseenmage]

There is also the option of somehow getting your hands on some of the few things that generate magic affects while still being not magic items.

Alchemical items and special material traits are a good start followed by Ethergaunt technology.

Devices are in Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood. They are steampunk tech that are non-magical magic items.

Gnome Artificer items (Magic of Faerûn*variant, p. 23) called "artificer devices" are also non-magical magic items.

Finally, in Pathfinder's world of Golarion the nation of Numeria has technology that is a direct analogue to magic. Priced just like magic items but again, explicitly non-magical.

[Zanos]

Your magic being sharply limited is kinda the point of the dead magic trait. If it was so easy to circumvent there'd be little point.

The only thing that really lets you cast in dead magic planes is Initiate of Mystra, and it's considered cheese for a reason.
If you have no way around it at all there's no reason for a primary caster to ever go to a dead magic plane. If I was a wizard 20 I'd send an undead or something with the party and stay far away from the place that makes me a commoner 20.

I also dont think taking an epic feat to circumvent a planar trait is cheese.

[Chalhubard]

Your magic being sharply limited is kinda the point of the dead magic trait. If it was so easy to circumvent there'd be little point.

The only thing that really lets you cast in dead magic planes is Initiate of Mystra, and it's considered cheese for a reason.

Agreed. On the point of Initiate of Mystra, as we're playing a Planescape campaign, I believe it would do nothing against dead magic areas outside Toril, as Mystra is not the personification of magic, rather just one of the many gods of magic.



There is also the option of somehow getting your hands on some of the few things that generate magic affects while still being not magic items.

Alchemical items and special material traits are a good start followed by Ethergaunt technology.

Devices are in Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood. They are steampunk tech that are non-magical magic items.

Gnome Artificer items (Magic of Faerûn*variant, p. 23) called "artificer devices" are also non-magical magic items.

Finally, in Pathfinder's world of Golarion the nation of Numeria has technology that is a direct analogue to magic. Priced just like magic items but again, explicitly non-magical.


Only WotC material allowed, sadly, these Devices are tasty material! As for the ethergaunt tech, that was new for me, are there any other items apart from the ones in Fiend Folio?


We kept the brainstorm going and had an idea: Invoke Magic -> Sanctum Spell Etherealness, Swift (Brd 5, Clr 5, Sor/Wiz 5) to bring it to level 4

From the SRD:

The Ethereal Plane is coexistent with the Material Plane and often other planes as well. The Material Plane itself is visible from the Ethereal Plane, but it appears muted and indistinct, its colors blurring into each other and its edges turning fuzzy.

(...)

It has the following traits.

No gravity.
Alterable morphic. The plane contains little to alter, however.
Mildly neutral-aligned.
Normal magic. Spells function normally on the Ethereal Plane, though they do not cross into the Material Plane.
The only exceptions are spells and spell-like abilities that have the force descriptor and abjuration spells that affect ethereal beings. Spellcasters on the Material Plane must have some way to detect foes on the Ethereal Plane before targeting them with force-based spells, of course. While it’s possible to hit ethereal enemies with a force spell cast on the Material Plane, the reverse isn’t possible. No magical attacks cross from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane, including force attacks.


This would allow us to Time Stop -> Gate -> Ghost Trap (Clr 6, Sor/Wiz 7), which would force all gated/called creatures back into the Material Plane.

Now, how would a Tabard of the Disembodied, from the Magic Item Compendium, which allows its user, up to 10 rounds per day, to cast spells normally into the Material plane would interact with that? Could one use the same tactics as a spellcaster normally uses for casting into antimagic fields, such as instant duration Conjuration [creation] spells?

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you have no way around it at all there's no reason for a primary caster to ever go to a dead magic plane. If I was a wizard 20 I'd send an undead or something with the party and stay far away from the place that makes me a commoner 20.

I also dont think taking an epic feat to circumvent a planar trait is cheese.

That's the point. A dead magic plane is supposed to be a huge problem for casters.
Completely negating it isn't "getting around it". You can get around it by using undead, called creatures and alchemical items.

And i think that taking a feat, epic or not, to circumvent the one thing that'll actually trouble a caster is indeed cheese.
Of course i can't speak for the OP's DM, but if i use a dead magic plane in a game it's supposed to be a problem for the players they have to work around, not a feat tax.

[Sleven]

That's the point. A dead magic plane is supposed to be a huge problem for casters.
Completely negating it isn't "getting around it". You can get around it by using undead, called creatures and alchemical items.

And i think that taking a feat, epic or not, to circumvent the one thing that'll actually trouble a caster is indeed cheese.
Of course i can't speak for the OP's DM, but if i use a dead magic plane in a game it's supposed to be a problem for the players they have to work around, not a feat tax.

Except for the fact that Dead Magic, as written, is extremely easy to get around, even in core:


Dead Magic

These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell.

You can literally jump in a sealed barrel and be "k" vs a dead magic plane. You'll have a hard time casting outside of it, but at least you keep your buffs and contingencies.

There are also non-epic feats like Shadow Weave Magic that according to their source books explicitly ignore the effects of dead magic (but not antimagic in this case). Permanent Emanation is also a feat not explicitly called out as being non-(Ex) so... it's (Ex), but the spell is apparently still subject to dispel magic for 1d4 rounds.

Point is, Zanos is right. Either your DM has banned or houseruled away all the reasons for you to visit a plane with the dead magic trait and you'd never actually go there personally, or they're allowed and you're working around them just fine. Epic level casters can do far worse than ignore the dead magic planar trait.

EDIT: It's less a problem and more an ultimatum. Your DM either wants to screw you over completely (for however many sessions) or they want to let you participate.

[Zanos]

That's the point. A dead magic plane is supposed to be a huge problem for casters.
Completely negating it isn't "getting around it".
Using build resources to make yourself more capable in a niche circumstance seems reasonable to me.


You can get around it by using undead, called creatures
Yes, but then you don't actually go there. Fine if your DM wants to let you play a called devil or angel or whatever for a session and you're cool with that, but kind of dumb to make an adventure that's premise is "your class need not apply". There's no reason to go in person.


and alchemical items.
And then everyone laughed.


And i think that taking a feat, epic or not, to circumvent the one thing that'll actually trouble a caster is indeed cheese.
Of course i can't speak for the OP's DM, but if i use a dead magic plane in a game it's supposed to be a problem for the players they have to work around, not a feat tax.
See above.