My pcs are getting sued.

[Calthropstu]

So my pcs killed the evil noble who had been running a slave trade operation.

My pcs did the standard "kill em all, take their stuff." However, the man has a legitimate heir who was uninvolved in the slave operation.

This heir will contend in court that his father, while involved in some illegal activities, also had many legitimate business ventures the proceeds from which the party wrongfully took.

He also intends to contend the illegal proceeds should have gone to the slave victims, not all to the pcs.

Since the pcs have spent most of this coin upgrading their gear, it will be difficult to pay that sum back.

I am prepared for a number of circumstances and party responses, but I am asking the playground what they might do. The party is 7th level and consists of a wizard, cleric, rogue/barbarian and a sword+board fighter.

[daremetoidareyo]

What are the PC alignments?

[Kyrell1978]

So my pcs killed the evil noble who had been running a slave trade operation.

My pcs did the standard "kill em all, take their stuff." However, the man has a legitimate heir who was uninvolved in the slave operation.

This heir will contend in court that his father, while involved in some illegal activities, also had many legitimate business ventures the proceeds from which the party wrongfully took.

He also intends to contend the illegal proceeds should have gone to the slave victims, not all to the pcs.

Since the pcs have spent most of this coin upgrading their gear, it will be difficult to pay that sum back.

I am prepared for a number of circumstances and party responses, but I am asking the playground what they might do. The party is 7th level and consists of a wizard, cleric, rogue/barbarian and a sword+board fighter.

This is fantastic. I would set this up as an adventure hook. A court ordered adventure hook that serves as restitution. HAAAAAAA

[Yuki Akuma]

That's awesome. Either they go on the run from the law, making for an exciting chase storyline, or they get ordered to make restitution the only way they can - adventure!

[RoboEmperor]

Promise to pay them back later. It's not like 7th level wealth becomes pennies at higher levels. Oh wait, it does.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Get someone with high bluff and diplomacy to argue the parties case.
Then come up with a halfway believable argument about how the party deserved that money (and are really quite modest to not ask for more) and let the party face's talking skills convince the court of that.

That's what you have a party face with high social skills for after all.

[Kish]

As daremetoidareyo suggested, what I would do would depend on the character I was playing. Potentially also the nature of the court and of the noble heir.

Also, what are the PCs' options? That is, does the court have the power to enforce their decrees, should they come up against PCs who don't respect their authority?

[Kyrell1978]

Or you could even throw in the double twist of having the PCs have to work for the son to pay restitution, but during the course of that adventure they find out that he was somehow doing some bbeg thing and now they have to prove it to the court thus leading to yet another adventure hook to go stop this bbeg. bwahahahaha

[GrayDeath]

Depends on the Parties Alignment.

if they are the usual Chaotic Backstabbing Looters, ahem I mean "Adventurers" (even if they think they are other alignments) stab the heir, loot him, done. ^^


If they are Lawful Evil Led (as they should be^^), get their Knowledge and Diplomacy Skills boosted and fry him in Court, after that he will owe YOU money.

If they are Goody Two Shoes People: Bindingly promise him to pay him back in a year. You`ll likely be +5 Levels by then, and the Cash will be change.

[Albions_Angel]

I think binding the party to a term of service with the heir is a good bet.

If the party is mostly lawful, simply decree it. If the party is not, then I would expect most high courts to have access to lesser Geas, or even Geas/Quest. "The court tasks you with performing such activities as befit adventurers, as requested by the claimant, for a term of 50 days." should satisfy geas pretty well.

And as has been mentioned, it would be interesting to have the heir secretly be a BBEG. Maybe he was controlling his father, maybe he IS his father.

The thing is, if Jr. doesnt give the adventurers any tasks, they just do their own thing until they get commands, for 50 days. And after a couple of missions, or even refusals, the party will know to do what they are told. So what happens if SOMEONE DISGUISED as Jr. gives them an order? It wont trigger Geas, but the party wont know that. Perhaps the BBEG who ISNT Jr. gets them to do some tasks, pretending to be Jr. And they dont find out until much later.

You could have a lot of fun with that.

[TheFamilarRaven]

It'd help if you listed what responses you expect so we don't get overlap. Without knowing the specifics of the PCs personalities, I can only offer some hypothetical as to what might happen (which you seem to be asking for). In no particular order, they might:

-Skip town, probably whats gonna happen, alignment be damned.

-Fight it out in court. Might be an uphill battle depending on whether or not what the Pcs did was within the bounds of the law. I would allow the PCs to do as much research into local law as they can, or at least find themselves a good lawyer. Depending on the law, if a person is allowed to keep the loot gained from bandits, they could make the case that their (the PC's) claim to the evil noble's loot is legitimate.

-If they're feeling manipulative, they could try and determine who the jury/judge (assuming its that kind of court system) is going to be and bribe them with money or performing a favor

-Magical manipulation in the form of suggestions and/or dominate person. I could see them using enchantments on the heir to get him to drop the suit. Or again, on the judiciary officials.

-Fight it out in court, but instead of focusing on the legality of the PCs appropriation of property, they could attempt to prove that, while perhaps not directly involved in illegal activities, the heir was fully aware of the slavery business of his father. The argument could then be that the heir should not be rewarded with his proper inheritance for being complacent with the human trafficking business. This one might work best his going up a jury of normal Joes than a single judge.

-They might try to negotiate a settlement. "Oh hey, yeah. Sorry we kinda invested the capital we gained from murder-hoboing into our fledgling adventuring venture. We'll pay you back when we start seeing our returns."

-Go full murderhobo. They murder the heir, and the judge, and the executioner and the... well, you get the idea.

-Or some combination of the above.

That's all the responses the PCs might give that I could think of off the top of my head. Hope that helps you prepare.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I think binding the party to a term of service with the heir is a good bet.

If the party is mostly lawful, simply decree it. If the party is not, then I would expect most high courts to have access to lesser Geas, or even Geas/Quest. "The court tasks you with performing such activities as befit adventurers, as requested by the claimant, for a term of 50 days." should satisfy geas pretty well.


The problem with that is that any party who isn't inclined to follow the court order will be equally disinclined to accept a Geas.

Well that and that you're already railroading the trial to a specific conclusion. There are tons of things the party could do to swing things in their favor, depending on their resources and alignment.

[Deophaun]

I smile. I seize on his concern trolling about the slaves and take it a step further. If the thief must only repay that which he was caught stealing, there is no incentive not to steal as he is never the worse off. Thus, all of that wealth should go to rectifying the wrongs of his benefactor. Fortunately, we've already invested that into gear that will help us more easily root out the slave trade. But, we are happy that the heir has taken such a keen interest in this travesty. We would happily accept his sponsorship on this quest, to make right the debt he also inherited.

Later, as my career progresses and the heir fades into backstory, I will show up at his door and PAO him into an ox, to be worked to death on a farm. Because don't you dare tell me that the person who was going to inherit a slave trade didn't know exactly what was going on.

[zlefin]

first question is to decide how many players care about courtroom drama, and thus whether to focus on that part or just go over it loosely. as a fan of courtroom dramas I could point to a number of legal counterarguments to various points if desired.

normally i'd expect stuff like this to have been approximately covered under session 0: i.e. standards for how the world's law operates, and what's covered/what isn't (both de jure and in practice). in particular to the common practical matter of the legality of looting.

[Jack_Simth]

I am prepared for a number of circumstances and party responses, but I am asking the playground what they might do. The party is 7th level and consists of a wizard, cleric, rogue/barbarian and a sword+board fighter.
1) Take the money and run.
2) Kill all who oppose them (in this case, the heir, possibly the judge/jury as applicable).
3) Boost skill checks to high-heaven and plead their case in court.
4) Mind control (Charm / Suggestion / Dominate on appropriate targets involved)

Note that these are not necessarily exclusive of each other. The rogue/barb multiclass could sneak in and quietly assassinate the heir. The Wizard could cast Charm Monster on the judge a day before the trial. The Cleric could argue with boosted skill checks from Divine Insight. If that still doesn't work, the Sword & Board could beat the guards down while they all run off with the loot.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Sounds like a good plot. Court cases are a matter of Diplomacy, Bluff, Profession (Lawyer), Sense Motive, Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty/History), Perform (Pleading) and so on. If the PCs are not strong on those, they may well try to run, charm key witnesses/the court, kill or disappear the heir, create fake treasure as restitution, Intimidate the court (not usually appreciated, but potentially effective if the court has the usual first-level warriors as guards), or deny the court's jurisdiction because of some distant stab at diplomatic immunity.


This heir will contend in court that his father, while involved in some illegal activities, also had many legitimate business ventures the proceeds from which the party wrongfully took.

He also intends to contend the illegal proceeds should have gone to the slave victims, not all to the pcs.
Hmmm. The PCs are definitely guilty of murder (maaaybe manslaughter) and robbery, in modern terms. However, in my unprofessional opinion, it is the case that under most legal systems, the father's victims are not entitled to any of the property stolen by the PCs directly. It's the heir who is owed the stolen goods, and the slaves may be owed some form of restitution by the father, which obligation may have been inherited by the heir. It may be worthwhile to contend something along the lines of: "Because of them [adventurers], I have not only lost my father, but I'm now too poor to make up for his mistakes, and what has the world come to when a noble orphan cannot provide for the weakest of our society etc. etc.". That plays up the drama of the situation a bit more.

[Vizzerdrix]

Claim right of conquest. Behead the brat and any official that supports hit (i.e., the judge) publicly as conspirators of the father, then liquidate their estates to fund an anti slavery task force. Honesly, the only athority that shold be an issue is the highest in the land. If the top dog send someone, then you should care.

[Kish]

I smile. I seize on his concern trolling about the slaves and take it a step further. If the thief must only repay that which he was caught stealing, there is no incentive not to steal as he is never the worse off. Thus, all of that wealth should go to rectifying the wrongs of his benefactor. Fortunately, we've already invested that into gear that will help us more easily root out the slave trade. But, we are happy that the heir has taken such a keen interest in this travesty. We would happily accept his sponsorship on this quest, to make right the debt he also inherited.

Later, as my career progresses and the heir fades into backstory, I will show up at his door and PAO him into an ox, to be worked to death on a farm. Because don't you dare tell me that the person who was going to inherit a slave trade didn't know exactly what was going on.
I like the cut of this person's jib.

(As I said, it would depend on the character I was playing, for me. For Kish's personal reaction, though...nobles? Aren't those that species of vermin so foul that it's unfair to compare mosquitoes and cockroaches to them?)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Later, as my career progresses and the heir fades into backstory, I will show up at his door and PAO him into an ox, to be worked to death on a farm. Because don't you dare tell me that the person who was going to inherit a slave trade didn't know exactly what was going on.

It's not like there aren't countless divination and enchantment spells to find out for sure.

[Deophaun]

It's not like there aren't countless divination and enchantment spells to find out for sure.
Divinations, enchantments, oracles, and divine beings that say otherwise just prove their unreliability.

[Bronk]

I am prepared for a number of circumstances and party responses, but I am asking the playground what they might do. The party is 7th level and consists of a wizard, cleric, rogue/barbarian and a sword+board fighter.

1: Skip town

2: Skip the country

3: Skip world

4: Skip plane

If good: Make a donation to a charity of the plaintiff's choice, but appeal to 'Adventurer's Rules', pointing out that it's all tainted money and are the spoils of war. This will work better if they're some form of officially sanctioned group, like they have in Cormyr.

If Neutral: Court battle!

If evil: Heir today, gone tomorrow!

[King of Nowhere]

Well, as others pointed out, there are many ways this can go depending on the pplayers, the heir, and the legal system.

Assuming everyone involved is not too much of a bastard and the legal system is fair enough and the party is willing to accept the law, I would say that claiming the party has to pay back some, but not all, of what they took should be ok. Maybe they could come to terms with the heir to avoid an expensive litigation. Maybe they could be asked to take a quest for the heir.

My pc would make research on the heir; if it seems the heir is a nice person, give the heir what he's due. If it seems the heir is a bastard, go vigilante. but that's my pc.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The heir's estate is based on (I assume) illegal and highly unethical slavery. What are the slavery laws in this country? What are the laws on adventurers taking down illegal operations like this?

[daremetoidareyo]

The heir's estate is based on (I assume) illegal and highly unethical slavery. What are the slavery laws in this country? What are the laws on adventurers taking down illegal operations like this?

Lol. You think PCs will try to fight this in court?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Lol. You think PCs will try to fight this in court?Unless the state is obviously unfair, unethical, and/or immoral, setting a diplomancer on the court would be a cheap and easy way to turn the tables, especially given the whole "estate is based on slavery" thing. The heir may even have to pay massive fines in addition to being forced to allow them to keep their spoils.

[Bohandas]

Assuming the heir really is innocent

LG, LN, CN, or NG party alignment: Flee the country
CG, CN, or NN party alignment: Clandestinely destroy/falsify records
Evil party alignment: Clandestine murder of the plantiff and/or open destruction of the apparatus of government eg. by burning the courts and guard stations down
CN Party alignment: Destruction of the apparatus of government by burning the sourts down after everybody has gone home for the night
LN or LG party alignment: Some sort of counter-suit
NN, LN, or LE: Agree that any illegal proceeds should have gone to the victims then sue the victims for services rendered
LN, LE, or NE: Agree that any illegal proceeds should go to the victims but strongarm the victims into signing over their shares of the reparations
Alignment other than LG: The old fairy gold hustle. Pay up with counterfeit items or rig the items to be able to be teleported back
Alignment other than LG or NG- Steal the plaintiff's identity
Evil alignment- Summon/call a fiend or similar spirit to posess the plaintiff
Alignment other than LG or LN- Bribe the judge
Has decent wizard, Not NG or LG- modify memory to make people think they won the trial
Party has Cleric of a god popular in this jurisdiction- Appeal to a higher authority
Any- settle out of court in exchanbe fro doing some side-quest for the heir
Party has good forger or someone good with illusion/enchantment- Now they are the official heir
CE or NE party- Forcible change of venue to the Abyssal courts at Woeful Escrand
Party has good forger- Fake letter of marque
Party has government connections- Real letter of marque with fake date

[Calthropstu]

The kingdom has numerous options for removing adventurers from play. If they attempt to flee, they will be trackef down, their gear confiscated and they will be jailed for 6months for contempt.

The murder route would see their adventures end most likely as they got hit by high level scry and die. Nobility is considered nigh untouchable. Participating in the illegal slave trade, necromancy and treason to the crown are among the very few ways nobles can fall. And this guy was involved in all three.
His son, however, really had nothing to do with that. He is only 15 and has hired lawyers to try and get back some of the things the adventurers took. The father, in addition to his illegal activities, was involved in spice trades, silk, theater and agriculture. The gold the party took was intended to pay the wages for and otherwise fund those ventures.

Without it, hundreds will suffer.

The alignments are LG (fighter), NG(cleric), N (wizard) and CN(Rogue).

I am designing the court system and legal system now. The original idea came to me in the last session and I basically ended it with:
"A woman approaches you a d asks if you are [Adventuring Troupe]."
"Yes."
"You have been served."

So there hasn't been much chance to respond.

[Bohandas]

What are their levels?

[Calthropstu]

What are their levels?

They are all 7th lvl.

[Deophaun]

Nobility is considered nigh untouchable.
Hence why I would have no respect for the court system. The game's rigged. I would just content myself with a nice, cold glass of revenge after it's fallen off the radar and reclaim everything I lost (and then some).


His son, however, really had nothing to do with that. He is only 15...
Before the advent of the 20th century, that's an adult. I call BS. Especially as he is a noble and now the first in line, which means his education is all about learning how to maintain his father's estate so that he can one day take it over. He didn't know? Pull the other one.

Maybe, maybe if he didn't concern troll for the slaves in a transparent attempt to get some further payback on the PCs, I might consider that the kid is merely a greedy heir and let him off with a spanking. But no. His life ends getting rendered down for glue.

[Bohandas]

Before the advent of the 20th century, that's an adult. I call BS.

The real world didn't habe elvish, dwarvish, and gnomish culture influencing it

[Deophaun]

The real world didn't habe elvish, dwarvish, and gnomish culture influencing it
And? Fields still need to be plowed. Orcs still need to be driven off. Besides, those elves, dwarves, and gnomes have forever to goof off. Human lives are short. You don't have time to be child if you want to compete.

[Vertharrad]

Your PC's can capitulate to pay back the slaves, if in turn the heir releases the slaves and pays the same amount as a sign of good faith in his disdain for said matters that he apparently knew about but failed to bring to an authority figures attention. Since they have already used it all maybe a time limit can be set for the party to gather the requisite amount of gold. Others have given just as valid options. This one I think should mullify the court and party seeing as how a 15 year old who has enough responsibility to run a trade venture couldn't be mature enough to stop his fathers illegal activities...and didn't even mention them till now.

[RoboEmperor]

There's only one way. Promise to pay them back. If that's not acceptable then you have to sell all your gear to match that gold at which point, you know, the players will heavily resent the DM. The DM said himself that you can't murderhobo or run away so there really is no other option.

Diplomacy? Yeah if that's allowed then how about wall of salt? or fabricate?

[Crake]

The real question I have is: How does the court expect to enforce their ruling on the players? This results in a catch22, either a) the level 7 players aren't particularly special in this world, and can be brought to bear by a standard court, in which case, how did they manage to defeat the noble's slave ring, and why didn't the players just inform the authorities of their findings and let them take care of the illegal affairs, or b) the players are too powerful to be reasonably enforced to adhere to the court rulings, in which case the whole point is moot.

How far does this court's ruling reach? Is it a local municipality? A barony? A nation-spanning jurisdiction? Again, if this noble's son can bring to bear the power of a court so powerful that it can significantly affect the players, see above.

Ultimately this idea, while cool, is self contradictory toward the story.

[RoboEmperor]

The real question I have is: How does the court expect to enforce their ruling on the players? This results in a catch22, either a) the level 7 players aren't particularly special in this world, and can be brought to bear by a standard court, in which case, how did they manage to defeat the noble's slave ring, and why didn't the players just inform the authorities of their findings and let them take care of the illegal affairs, or b) the players are too powerful to be reasonably enforced to adhere to the court rulings, in which case the whole point is moot.

How far does this court's ruling reach? Is it a local municipality? A barony? A nation-spanning jurisdiction? Again, if this noble's son can bring to bear the power of a court so powerful that it can significantly affect the players, see above.

Ultimately this idea, while cool, is self contradictory toward the story.

Check out post #27

[Vizzerdrix]

The kingdom has numerous options for removing adventurers from play. If they attempt to flee, they will be trackef down, their gear confiscated and they will be jailed for 6months for contempt.

The murder route would see their adventures end most likely as they got hit by high level scry and die. Nobility is considered nigh untouchable. Participating in the illegal slave trade, necromancy and treason to the crown are among the very few ways nobles can fall. And this guy was involved in all three.

So let me get this straight. All of this can be done to adventurers, but they couldnt do this to shut down a crime boss? That is absurd.

[emeraldstreak]

An excellent moment to introduce press in the storyline. Say, a sensationalist rag that misrepresents the adventurers.

[emeraldstreak]

His son, however, really had nothing to do with that.

Says who?

10

[GrayDeath]

Says who?

10

The DM, obviously. ^^

[Mordaedil]

Get a lawyer for the PC's that works extremely well to discredit the innocent noble and draws his charactern intelligence and pride into question.

"Are you SURE you didn't know about this highly illegal plot by your father? Not even a WHIFF of suspicion? Not even a question of why he was late home?"

Keep piling it on thick.

[Kish]

Yeah, but...the DM needs to make it believable.

I am gathering, at this point, that Calthropstu and I aren't going to see eye to eye on the implications of a government system with nigh-untouchable nobles. I can't think of any character I've played recently who would cooperate with this to any extent that wasn't directly coerced, or without planning to turn the tables later.

That said, Calthropstu also spelled out already-existing plans to coerce the PCs very directly, so the answer's already been decided and I'm not sure what they're looking for here--validation?

D&D worlds generally only vaguely if at all resembling real-life medieval Europe, I'd be willing to accept "15 is a child," except this child apparently has legal standing to sue the adventurers, so is he legally an adult (and thus responsible for all the implications of being the heir to a slave trade) or legally a child (and who's actually suing the PCs)?

[Saintheart]

Lol. You think PCs will try to fight this in court?

If trial by combat is available, then why not?

The Aristocrat only has a +5 BAB and d8 hit dice at level 7, put the party barbarian in there and watch the judgment of the gods in action!

[zlefin]

it sounds like there may be some verisimilitude problems; wherein the good chars at least should've known beforehand that simply taking all the money may not have been the proper thing to do. A LG char was listed, they at least should know a tiny bit about the relevant law and to not just take everything.
In addition to the issues others have raised about why the law didn't put a stop to the slavers; but the party was able to actually defeat them.
It sounds like the players might be annoyed because the laws are being put in ex post facto to make a story.

[JustIgnoreMe]

This feels like a classic Bait-and-Switch/"Gotcha!" GM moment. That's not a good thing.

All that guy's wealth is tainted. Unless he kept meticulous ledgers that show that no slavery money was used in his legitimate businesses, or on his lands, his holdings and his possessions (and surely nobody is stupid enough to keep such ledgers), it's all proceeds of slavery. Or treason, or necromancy.

At the very best, everything the slaver lord owned should be forfeit to the Crown. And the Crown would be well advised to give it to the adventurers, to encourage the others.

Hang about, if the lord is guilty of treason, what rights can his heir enforce? How is the heir still a noble when the title and lands would probably be ripped away as a result of the treason?

Basically, I wouldn't throw a book at the GM, but I would be giving them a very unimpressed look if this came out of the blue when I was expecting an "Against the slavers!" dungeon crawl rather than a court-room roll-off.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Okay, so nobles are untouchable.

The government abets and abides slavery, necromantic sacrifices, and other horrors. It's LE, at best.

The law is corrupt.

Time to take the government down, put all the nobles on trial for the crimes against the people they obviously commit regularly, then put the guilty to the torch, stripping them of titles and property in the process.

It's the least that the cause of justice demands.

Get the more Good-aligned nations involved. Turn the Good gods against them. Save the peasants and the innocent and burn the rest. Then establish a fair government based on a constitutional democracy/monarchy/whatever to ensure that the people all have proper rights, responsibilities, and freedoms.

[Bronk]

The kingdom has numerous options for removing adventurers from play. If they attempt to flee, they will be trackef down, their gear confiscated and they will be jailed for 6months for contempt.

The murder route would see their adventures end most likely as they got hit by high level scry and die. Nobility is considered nigh untouchable. Participating in the illegal slave trade, necromancy and treason to the crown are among the very few ways nobles can fall. And this guy was involved in all three.

This is actually sounding more like a Shadowrun than DnD. They're in a heap of trouble right now... did they make a deal with a dragon?

[sleepyphoenixx]

This is actually sounding more like a Shadowrun than DnD. They're in a heap of trouble right now... did they make a deal with a dragon?

Sounds more like railroading.
If the government has the resources to high-level scry & die people at will and easily keep them imprisoned why didn't they deal with that noble? Why are there adventurers at all?
Why didn't the noble they kill have any of those resources if nobles in this world are such hot ****?
Why does the noble's son have time to sue the adventurers when he should be more than busy trying to cling to his title in the face of charges of treason, necromancy and slavery?

It just sounds like "this is how MY story is going to go and if you try to get around it the government will have exactly what it needs to counter your defiance".

[RoboEmperor]

I'd cast Divine Insight and Guidane of the Avatar to bluff that the son was the genius mastermind of the whole thing and have him executed.


Sounds more like railroading.
If the government has the resources to high-level scry & die people at will and easily keep them imprisoned why didn't they deal with that noble? Why are there adventurers at all?
Why didn't the noble they kill have any of those resources if nobles in this world are such hot ****?
Why does the noble's son have time to sue the adventurers when he should be more than busy trying to cling to his title in the face of charges of treason, necromancy and slavery?

It just sounds like "this is how MY story is going to go and if you try to get around it the government will have exactly what it needs to counter your defiance".

Agreed.

[Bronk]

I'd cast Divine Insight and Guidane of the Avatar to bluff that the son was the genius mastermind of the whole thing and have him executed.

Maybe they could UMD some scrolls of Owl's Insight and Improvisation too, but go with diplomacy to make it stick.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Maybe they could UMD some scrolls of Owl's Insight and Improvisation too, but go with diplomacy to make it stick.You'd need some way to change owl's insight from Wis to Cha.

[Calthropstu]

Ok, since some of you clearly need more info:

The pcs tracked a kidnap victim to an underground cave populated with thugs and undead. The party found several papers imlicating the noble and several women and children in cages. The particular woman they were looking for was not among them. They eventually found a hidden door with a long path leading under the mansion.

They burst into the bedroom of the noble where they found him, the woman they were looking for and 2 other women. The women were all in chans.

The noble in question actually HAD a trump card he could have used, namely the necromancer who created the skeletons and zombies for him. But 1: he was busy elsewhere and 2: I am not pitting a 7th lvl party who had pretty much exhausted their spells getting that far against a 14th lvl necromancer who is meant to be a boss fight much later down the road.

This is meant to be a bit of a side quest. Not 100% sure where I'm gonna go with it just yet. I have the kid written as lawful neutral. He does resent the party for killing his dad, but understands what his father was doing was crimes of the highest order.

Also, I wrote this up as the following:

The noble was approached by several members of a cabal. They promised wealth and autonomy and the ability to fulfill his darkest desires. Why, even immortality would not be out of the question.

They linked him up with a bandit gang who began kidnappings to sell people to a far kingdom using the noble's already in place system of shipping routes.

This began not too long ago. The Cabal is unknown to the court, and based on the testimony of the rescued people they had never seen the kid before.

Since the house was so entrentched in the local system, the boy was allowed to take over the estate. But he NEEDS some of the money the pcs took to keep the businesses afloat.

As for the law, the noble in question was an Earl. Ordinarily, the Viscount would oversee this but because the child is the son of a foreign royal bloodline, it has gone directly to the Duke.

The Duke is very important and has some serious firepower at his disposal. In addition to 40,000 troops I gave him a head wizard (lvl 14 and 3 lvl 10+ backup casters), a spiritual adviser (lvl 13 cleric with some angelic messengers at her disposal) and a spymaster (lvl 15 rogue)

He himself is a lvl 3 fighter/lvl 12 paladin.

So it would be suicide going after him.

He will preside along with 3 viscounts.

As far as the law itself:

I've just finished writing that up.
Because the party destroyed a horrendous plot, they are entitled to compensation. However, by taking everything in the mansion without consulting authorities they are guilty of robbery.
The default ruling will be that the duke himself will pay the party for their services, which they must immediately pay as restitution. Since crimes cannot go unpunished however, he will also stipulate 6 months of service to the kid.

Diplomacy and other skill rolls can adjust this.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ok, since some of you clearly need more info:

The pcs tracked a kidnap victim to an underground cave populated with thugs and undead. The party found several papers imlicating the noble and several women and children in cages. The particular woman they were looking for was not among them. They eventually found a hidden door with a long path leading under the mansion.

They burst into the bedroom of the noble where they found him, the woman they were looking for and 2 other women. The women were all in chans.

The noble in question actually HAD a trump card he could have used, namely the necromancer who created the skeletons and zombies for him. But 1: he was busy elsewhere and 2: I am not pitting a 7th lvl party who had pretty much exhausted their spells getting that far against a 14th lvl necromancer who is meant to be a boss fight much later down the road.

This is meant to be a bit of a side quest. Not 100% sure where I'm gonna go with it just yet. I have the kid written as lawful neutral. He does resent the party for killing his dad, but understands what his father was doing was crimes of the highest order.

Also, I wrote this up as the following:

The noble was approached by several members of a cabal. They promised wealth and autonomy and the ability to fulfill his darkest desires. Why, even immortality would not be out of the question.

They linked him up with a bandit gang who began kidnappings to sell people to a far kingdom using the noble's already in place system of shipping routes.

This began not too long ago. The Cabal is unknown to the court, and based on the testimony of the rescued people they had never seen the kid before.

Since the house was so entrentched in the local system, the boy was allowed to take over the estate. But he NEEDS some of the money the pcs took to keep the businesses afloat.

As for the law, the noble in question was an Earl. Ordinarily, the Viscount would oversee this but because the child is the son of a foreign royal bloodline, it has gone directly to the Duke.

The Duke is very important and has some serious firepower at his disposal. In addition to 40,000 troops I gave him a head wizard (lvl 14 and 3 lvl 10+ backup casters), a spiritual adviser (lvl 13 cleric with some angelic messengers at her disposal) and a spymaster (lvl 15 rogue)

He himself is a lvl 3 fighter/lvl 12 paladin.

So it would be suicide going after him.

He will preside along with 3 viscounts.

As far as the law itself:

I've just finished writing that up.
Because the party destroyed a horrendous plot, they are entitled to compensation. However, by taking everything in the mansion without consulting authorities they are guilty of robbery.
The default ruling will be that the duke himself will pay the party for their services, which they must immediately pay as restitution. Since crimes cannot go unpunished however, he will also stipulate 6 months of service to the kid.

Diplomacy and other skill rolls can adjust this.The estate should be dismantled and handed over to the Crown, as the father was guilty of treason, meaning immediate dissolution of the bloodline and execution of the traitor (which has already been done). Technically, by that point, the party may have been stealing from the Crown, but in this particular case, I would suggest the party be rewarded by granting the estate to them. They are now responsible for running the estate and the businesses thereof. It's up to them to find a way to keep it running, and since they've taken quite a lot of the estate's money and invested it in magic items...

Basically, reward them with the estate. They now have a lot of problems they need to fix, which they pretty much caused themselves. An ironic blend of both reward and punishment.

The heir should be HEAVILY investigated, and if he is, indeed, found innocent, he should be kept on the estate to help run things. His life really doesn't change from what it was; he has some responsibility, but less than what he would have had, and he retains quite a decent stipend to keep things running (and telling his father's executors how they're screwing things up and all the hoops they have to jump through to fix things, else they'll have the Crown breathing down their necks).

[hamishspence]

Maybe in this setting, conviction for treason is not automatically accompanied by "forfeiture" for their whole family.

Perhaps, because the nobles, when the nation came into being, didn't want their liege to be able to accumulate land and power via treason accusations - so they arranged things so that forfeiture, even for treason, was impossible, even if the execution of nobles was not.

[sleepyphoenixx]

This began not too long ago. The Cabal is unknown to the court, and based on the testimony of the rescued people they had never seen the kid before.
Okay, why is it left at that? Since necromancy is a Big Deal, why does the court not use their high level divination skills to get every scrap of info they can?
Why are they not using Speak With Dead on the noble to find out who he worked with?
Why are they not using Mind Probe and Inquisition on the kid instead of relying on testimony from witnesses that can be faked in countless ways?
Why aren't they turning over every brick in that mansion, looking for something to use as a scrying focus for the creator of the undead that were found?
You get the idea. They should be using any information source at their disposal to get to the bottom of this.

You can't go after the party with high level divinations and then neglect to use those same divinations on way more serious criminals. Not without breaking your world's internal consistency.

And since the big boss is a Paladin there is even less of an excuse to not do it. This isn't just a corrupt noble looking out for number one, the guy is required to follow the law and do his best.
He should be way more interested in getting to the bottom of this slavery and necromancy business than personally handling the relatively minor matter of the party overstepping their bounds.
I can see him going for a arrangement like "you'll be working as my investigators in this case in exchange for leniency", but him just dropping it and going after the party? That's not believable.


Since the house was so entrentched in the local system, the boy was allowed to take over the estate. But he NEEDS some of the money the pcs took to keep the businesses afloat.
The house was implicated in - by your own words - the three biggest crimes there are. It doesn't make sense for the PALADIN duke to go "oh, it's fine now, keep going".
That isn't something just brushed under the carpet, it's the kind of thing that triggers a longwinded in-depth investigation (and likely ruins the house in question). As i said above the duke's forces should be turning over every brick and using every divination at their disposal to get to the bottom of this, not rely on some questionable testimony.

And that's not even counting the other noble houses who surely see an opportunity to profit here.


As for the law, the noble in question was an Earl. Ordinarily, the Viscount would oversee this but because the child is the son of a foreign royal bloodline, it has gone directly to the Duke.
That should make an in-depth investigation even more important.


The Duke is very important and has some serious firepower at his disposal. In addition to 40,000 troops I gave him a head wizard (lvl 14 and 3 lvl 10+ backup casters), a spiritual adviser (lvl 13 cleric with some angelic messengers at her disposal) and a spymaster (lvl 15 rogue)
Those high level casters should have way more important things to do here than scry after or geas the party.


He himself is a lvl 3 fighter/lvl 12 paladin.
As a paladin he literally can't half-ass the case just because the accused is a noble, not without falling.
A Paladin duke? He's bound by his Code to follow the law and be just. And he'll just drop the whole undead+slavery issue to deal with some overenthusiastic but (presumably) well intentioned adventurers who just did him a favor by revealing the whole thing? I think not.

If anybody should get the benefit of the doubt in this case it's the party, not the noble's son.
Who should at the very least be considered compromised and held under house arrest or observation until the mentioned in-depth investigation is finished. After a thorough, divination-assisted interrogation.


As far as the law itself:

I've just finished writing that up.
Because the party destroyed a horrendous plot, they are entitled to compensation. However, by taking everything in the mansion without consulting authorities they are guilty of robbery.
The default ruling will be that the duke himself will pay the party for their services, which they must immediately pay as restitution. Since crimes cannot go unpunished however, he will also stipulate 6 months of service to the kid.
That's another problem with this. The player's characters should have known about this law.
It's your job as a DM to inform them of things like that when it becomes relevant, not use it as a gotcha when it's already bitten them in the ass.

It also doesn't make much sense to give the kid a party of henchmen when he should still be under investigation for major crimes.
Or at all, really. If anything such a term of service should default to the state, who should be quite conscious of not empowering the nobility like that by offering them free serfs.

The last point (that the players apparently weren't informed of this law until it was too late) aside, the whole setup just doesn't make sense from an in-world perspective.
The focus on the PC's when they should really be an afterthought makes it seem like you're trying to screw your players over.

[Deophaun]

As far as the law itself:

I've just finished writing that up.
This is a problem.

Party performed standard adventuring party procedure: killed the bad guy and looted his stuff. But they transgressed laws that literally did not exist and so they (the players) had no means of knowing about something that the characters darn well should have.

Anyway, MaxiDuRaritry is right: The estate returns to the Crown, who is likely to reward it to the party (which comes with title and, most importantly, responsibilities to said Crown). If the party doesn't want to be at the King's service, the party can repay what it took to the Crown. The heir, meanwhile, is lucky he isn't beheaded, because your King is nice and doesn't mind leaving dispossessed nobility around to cause trouble.

If I wanted to make the party squirm, I would have had it revealed that the heir had indeed known about his father's business and was working to undermine him, being in part responsible for the party's success in that matter (perhaps the kid is the reason the necromancer wasn't there). I would have this revealed a week before the kid's execution.

Everything you said about the kid being Lawful neutral, I still wouldn't buy. Sure, it's Word of God, but that just means God is fallible, and it is up to my character to correct God's mistake by making sure the kid ends up making a good saddle.

[Kyrell1978]

Ok, since some of you clearly need more info:

The pcs tracked a kidnap victim to an underground cave populated with thugs and undead. The party found several papers imlicating the noble and several women and children in cages. The particular woman they were looking for was not among them. They eventually found a hidden door with a long path leading under the mansion.

They burst into the bedroom of the noble where they found him, the woman they were looking for and 2 other women. The women were all in chans.

The noble in question actually HAD a trump card he could have used, namely the necromancer who created the skeletons and zombies for him. But 1: he was busy elsewhere and 2: I am not pitting a 7th lvl party who had pretty much exhausted their spells getting that far against a 14th lvl necromancer who is meant to be a boss fight much later down the road.

This is meant to be a bit of a side quest. Not 100% sure where I'm gonna go with it just yet. I have the kid written as lawful neutral. He does resent the party for killing his dad, but understands what his father was doing was crimes of the highest order.

Also, I wrote this up as the following:

The noble was approached by several members of a cabal. They promised wealth and autonomy and the ability to fulfill his darkest desires. Why, even immortality would not be out of the question.

They linked him up with a bandit gang who began kidnappings to sell people to a far kingdom using the noble's already in place system of shipping routes.

This began not too long ago. The Cabal is unknown to the court, and based on the testimony of the rescued people they had never seen the kid before.

Since the house was so entrentched in the local system, the boy was allowed to take over the estate. But he NEEDS some of the money the pcs took to keep the businesses afloat.

As for the law, the noble in question was an Earl. Ordinarily, the Viscount would oversee this but because the child is the son of a foreign royal bloodline, it has gone directly to the Duke.

The Duke is very important and has some serious firepower at his disposal. In addition to 40,000 troops I gave him a head wizard (lvl 14 and 3 lvl 10+ backup casters), a spiritual adviser (lvl 13 cleric with some angelic messengers at her disposal) and a spymaster (lvl 15 rogue)

He himself is a lvl 3 fighter/lvl 12 paladin.

So it would be suicide going after him.

He will preside along with 3 viscounts.

As far as the law itself:

I've just finished writing that up.
Because the party destroyed a horrendous plot, they are entitled to compensation. However, by taking everything in the mansion without consulting authorities they are guilty of robbery.
The default ruling will be that the duke himself will pay the party for their services, which they must immediately pay as restitution. Since crimes cannot go unpunished however, he will also stipulate 6 months of service to the kid.

Diplomacy and other skill rolls can adjust this.

I have a couple of questions that may help put all of this in perspective.

1) Do you have a way to turn this into another profitable adventure for the players?

2) Is the party having fun?

If the answers to both of those questions are yes then you are doing your job just fine, don't sweat it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If I wanted to make the party squirm, I would have had it revealed that the heir had indeed known about his father's business and was working to undermine him, being in part responsible for the party's success in that matter (perhaps the kid is the reason the necromancer wasn't there). I would have this revealed a week before the kid's execution.I like this. The young man didn't tell the authorities because A.) he was being watched and scried upon, B.) he wanted his father to stop but didn't want him dead, and possibly C.) he is under a number of curses that prevent it (among other things; see below). He gets imprisoned, divinations turn up weird answers, and mundane investigations all point to his complicity. The party turns up new evidence and knowledge of the curse, the curse is removed, and the (former) heir's personal name is cleared. He joins the party as a highly paid assistant in helping keep things going, but he can't make ends meet as things stand, so the party is required to pump money into the estate to make up for the shortcomings of no longer dealing in slavery (as well as due to taking All The Stuff). And they need to keep pumping money in unless they can find a better way for the estate itself to make money.

Another reason to give the party the estate is to keep them under the Crown's thumb. Powerful people need oversight, and making them nobility means they gain that as a matter of course.

[Calthropstu]

I like this. The young man didn't tell the authorities because A.) he was being watched and scried upon, B.) he wanted his father to stop but didn't want him dead, and possibly C.) he is under a number of curses that prevent it (among other things; see below). He gets imprisoned, divinations turn up weird answers, and mundane investigations all point to his complicity. The party turns up new evidence and knowledge of the curse, the curse is removed, and the (former) heir's personal name is cleared. He joins the party as a highly paid assistant in helping keep things going, but he can't make ends meet as things stand, so the party is required to pump money into the estate to make up for the shortcomings of no longer dealing in slavery (as well as due to taking All The Stuff). And they need to keep pumping money in unless they can find a better way for the estate itself to make money.

Another reason to give the party the estate is to keep them under the Crown's thumb. Powerful people need oversight, and making them nobility means they gain that as a matter of course.

The Duke does not have the authority to make or remove nobles. Only the king can appoint nobles, with approval required by the noble council.

[zlefin]

that doesn't sound so much like "what the law is" as "what the legal conclusions will be by default, regardless of what the actual underlying laws are". It's not just skill rolls that would affect it; but actual legal arguments. You aren't detailing the actual underlying laws that lead to those conclusions. there are potentially a lot of legal arguments which could point to different conclusions.

aside from that I would echo the well thought out comments of others.
in particular that
A) you should have told the party AT THE TIME that they could't freely loot the mansion. An LG char should know enough that you can't just wantonly loot places. Quite likely some of the others would've also had good reason to know such a basic thing as that. The reason the chars thought they could loot was due to differing players expectations of the situation.
B) they should NOT be in service to the kid. Service to the crown perhaps; but not the kid. The kid may well lose their title, and would definitely not be getting significant command of anything for quite some time. Even if the title sin't lost, the estate would still certainly be liable for damages. and those damages could be taken from the estate's legitimate sources. Damages for such crimes might be high enough to bankrupt anyways.

also, you said the party already spent the money on magic items; how much time passed that allowed them to do that? did they do it that very same day? cuz otherwise they should have found out far sooner that there were legal issues involved, before they spent the money. Then the money could've simply been returned (the amounts of it eligible for return).
A case of this magnitude would get a LOT of important locals involved immediately; especially seeing as it's necessarily public since they liberated some slaves (who would obviously tell everyone).
It doesn't just wait for someone to file a suit before they hear anything about it, they'd have been extensively interviewed by the authorities ASAP. and those authorities would've wanted to know about everything they found in the mansion, so any gathered treasures would've been dealt with then.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The Duke does not have the authority to make or remove nobles. Only the king can appoint nobles, with approval required by the noble council.This involves treason and a potential undead apocalypse. The king would automatically be involved, as well as his advisors, the state church (if any), and anyone else required to depose an entire bloodline.

[Calthropstu]

that doesn't sound so much like "what the law is" as "what the legal conclusions will be by default, regardless of what the actual underlying laws are". It's not just skill rolls that would affect it; but actual legal arguments. You aren't detailing the actual underlying laws that lead to those conclusions. there are potentially a lot of legal arguments which could point to different conclusions.

aside from that I would echo the well thought out comments of others.
in particular that
A) you should have told the party AT THE TIME that they could't freely loot the mansion. An LG char should know enough that you can't just wantonly loot places. Quite likely some of the others would've also had good reason to know such a basic thing as that. The reason the chars thought they could loot was due to differing players expectations of the situation.
B) they should NOT be in service to the kid. Service to the crown perhaps; but not the kid. The kid may well lose their title, and would definitely not be getting significant command of anything for quite some time. Even if the title sin't lost, the estate would still certainly be liable for damages. and those damages could be taken from the estate's legitimate sources. Damages for such crimes might be high enough to bankrupt anyways.

also, you said the party already spent the money on magic items; how much time passed that allowed them to do that? did they do it that very same day? cuz otherwise they should have found out far sooner that there were legal issues involved, before they spent the money. Then the money could've simply been returned (the amounts of it eligible for return).
A case of this magnitude would get a LOT of important locals involved immediately; especially seeing as it's necessarily public since they liberated some slaves (who would obviously tell everyone).
It doesn't just wait for someone to file a suit before they hear anything about it, they'd have been extensively interviewed by the authorities ASAP.

Applicable laws:
Adventuring in a dungeon permits said adventurers to take, as compensation, any non-religious valuables found within.

Adventurers who happen upon illegal activities and disrupt them may take any gear the peroetrators carry and are entitled to the ill-gotten gains of said perpetrators.

The lair where the pcs found the slaves certainly qualified as a dungeon. The Mansion, however, did not.

The contention is that some of what the pcs took were not ill gotten and gained through the Earl's legitimate ventures.

The authorities DID question the PCs. They had originally cleared of wrongdoing in the incident.

The boy appealed to the Duke via his mother's connections after he had come back from his schooling in the foreign country previously mentioned (which is why he had no clue what was going on).

Executing or murdering the kid would be very very bad.

[RoboEmperor]

I have a couple of questions that may help put all of this in perspective.

1) Do you have a way to turn this into another profitable adventure for the players?

2) Is the party having fun?

If the answers to both of those questions are yes then you are doing your job just fine, don't sweat it.

I second this.

The DM is not the chief justice of the supreme court. He's not a retired judge or a big time lawyer, or a curator of a museum dedicated to medieval times. So anything he does is gonna be rife with flaws. Whatever he does, people of this forum can find and legitimately declare BS or railroad.

But if the players enjoy what he does and doesn't mind being some kid's b**** for 6 months, then he is doing a good job and all of this lawyer talk is irrelevant. However if the players do mind being some kid's b**** for 6 months and declares BS, and the DM's response is "I'm god and you will become that kid's b**** or die/be forever jailed etc." then the DM is doing a terrible job.

In any case I do agree with most of the others here. Laser targeted pin point of scy-n-die only on the PCs to force them to do as you say or die is railroad, springing this stuff on the players without giving a proper knowledge check is also railroad, and literally making the laws up on the spot after the fact to make the PCs guilty and some kid's b**** is definitely, definitely railroad.

It's one thing to give the players a complete legal system and them failing to read it over, it's another thing entirely to make the entire legal system revolve solely around enslaving the PCs.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The party should be rewarded for what they did, albeit chastised for going too far -- but not otherwise punished. They are given an appropriate amount of time to pay back what they took, but by that point, they'll be of a level where it'll be chump change.

There should be some reason for major suspicion on the heir, so the estate is temporarily given to the Crown for safekeeping while the investigation into the heir's complicity is ongoing. Due to a curse (or something), divinations prove unreliable, and mundane evidence has been planted pointing to him as being complicit. The party should catch wind of something going on, where the heir is NOT complicit, and in fact, is pretty horrified by his father's actions. He would do well as a noble, being actually pretty noble in spirit, regardless of his status in the Crown's court. It's up to the party to set the record straight. Give them some adventures to help out, and they can be the ones responsible for saving him from being railroaded. Then he's personally indebted to them, and ends up forgiving them for his father (who he realizes was a horrible person, and they did the right thing in offing him, regardless of his son's desires).

So they set the record straight, get his name cleared and reinstalled back as his father's heir, and now they have a young man who is very sorry for his father's abominable behavior and is their friend and ally.

The party doesn't get railroaded this way. Instead, they are offered more adventures and plothooks, and end up with a potentially quite powerful ally in the local government. And this isn't even mentioning how appreciative the king will be once he learns that this entire fustercluck has been cleared up, and his country's good name NOT dragged through the mud by convicting an innocent young man. Which is, of course, part of the necromancer's plot to destabilize the country, or some such. Maybe push them into war with their neighbors. Which also comes to light during the resolution of the scandal.

[zlefin]

Applicable laws:
Adventuring in a dungeon permits said adventurers to take, as compensation, any non-religious valuables found within.

Adventurers who happen upon illegal activities and disrupt them may take any gear the peroetrators carry and are entitled to the ill-gotten gains of said perpetrators.

The lair where the pcs found the slaves certainly qualified as a dungeon. The Mansion, however, did not.

The contention is that some of what the pcs took were not ill gotten and gained through the Earl's legitimate ventures.

The authorities DID question the PCs. They had originally cleared of wrongdoing in the incident.

The boy appealed to the Duke via his mother's connections after he had come back from his schooling in the foreign country previously mentioned (which is why he had no clue what was going on).

Executing or murdering the kid would be very very bad.
it's good to detail the underlyin laws some, thanks;

then the authorities would've, at the time, gone through a very rigorous process of determining what's ill-gotten and what's not. It wouldn't have waited until the boy appealed before it happened; it'd have been done immediately after, and it would've probably been done by the Duke at that time long ago (since the case was of such import as to merit his involvement), long before the PCs had a chance to spend any of it. So an appeal really wouldn't affect things.

[Calthropstu]

I second this.

The DM is not the chief justice of the supreme court. He's not a retired judge or a big time lawyer, or a curator of a museum dedicated to medieval times. So anything he does is gonna be rife with flaws. Whatever he does, people of this forum can find and legitimately declare BS or railroad.

But if the players enjoy what he does and doesn't mind being some kid's b**** for 6 months, then he is doing a good job and all of this lawyer talk is irrelevant. However if the players do mind being some kid's b**** for 6 months and declares BS, and the DM's response is "I'm god and you will become that kid's b**** or die/be forever jailed etc." then the DM is doing a terrible job.

In any case I do agree with most of the others here. Laser targeted pin point of scy-n-die only on the PCs to force them to do as you say or die is railroad, springing this stuff on the players without giving a proper knowledge check is also railroad, and literally making the laws up on the spot after the fact to make the PCs guilty and some kid's b**** is definitely, definitely railroad.

It's one thing to give the players a complete legal system and them failing to read it over, it's another thing entirely to make the entire legal system revolve solely around enslaving the PCs.

The only way scry and die becomes a thing is if the kid is murdered. On top of being the Earl's son, he's also his mother's son... Who is 23rd in line for the throne of said country.

They would be killed to avoid a serious international incident.

They would be brought to justice for running, spend some time in jail and enough gear of theirs confiscated to cover the verdict plus court expenses.

(About 15k worth)

In addition, that 6 months can also be bought off. It can also be argued down in court via diplomacy or maybe eliminated entirely.

If the pcs run, odds are they will have the authorities put on them. And you are right, I am no lawyer or historian. So I am definitely open to suggestions.

The guy above mentioning treason automatically getting kicked up to the king has definitely given me pause.

[Calthropstu]

it's good to detail the underlyin laws some, thanks;

then the authorities would've, at the time, gone through a very rigorous process of determining what's ill-gotten and what's not. It wouldn't have waited until the boy appealed before it happened; it'd have been done immediately after, and it would've probably been done by the Duke at that time long ago (since the case was of such import as to merit his involvement), long before the PCs had a chance to spend any of it. So an appeal really wouldn't affect things.

Viscount. It was originally handled by the Viscount Armitrad de Varis du'Gaul.

[Deophaun]

The lair where the pcs found the slaves certainly qualified as a dungeon. The Mansion, however, did not.
Except they are entitled to "ill-gotten gains." Those "ill-gotten gains" would be in the mansion. Gold is fungible.

The contention is that some of what the pcs took were not ill gotten and gained through the Earl's legitimate ventures.
And the Earl invested none of his ill-gotten gains in his legitimate ventures? Money laundering isn't a thing in your campaign world?

[Calthropstu]

Except they are entitled to "ill-gotten gains." Those "ill-gotten gains" would be in the mansion. Gold is fungible.

And the Earl invested none of his ill-gotten gains in his legitimate ventures? Money laundering isn't a thing in your campaign world?

Didn't think of that. It is definitely an argument to consider.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The guy above mentioning treason automatically getting kicked up to the king has definitely given me pause.High treason is the highest possible crime in most any country, by definition. In a land where the king is the highest judicial authority, he would most definitely be involved as soon as someone determined that treason has possibly been committed. This would, of course, also call in any and all people who would be required to pass judgment on the case, including anyone required to depose a bloodline. And the state church (if any) -- or at least, specialists in dealing with undead -- would also be part of the case for any possibility of an undead outbreak. Undead apocalypses are a definite concern, and anyone dealing in wights or shadows or similarly spawning undead would have every non-CE organization on the planet (that isn't already also undead, and several that actually are) sending everyone they can with the ability to head that kind of world-ending event off.

[Calthropstu]

Treason is the highest possible crime in any country. In a land where the king is the highest judicial authority, he would most definitely be involved as soon as someone determined that treason has possibly been committed. This would, of course, also call in any and all people who would be required to pass judgment on the case, including anyone required to depose a bloodline. And the state church (if any) -- or at least, specialists in dealing with undead -- would also be part of the case for any possibility of an undead outbreak. Undead apocalypses are a definite concern, and anyone dealing in wights or shadows or similarly spawning undead would have every non-CE organization on the planet (that isn't already also undead) sending everyone they can with the ability to head that kind of world-ending event off.

They were skeletons and zombies.

But even so, that necromancer is someone that the crown VERY much wants to get a hold of.

I will definitely write something for the king to respond with. But, seeing how the Earl is dead I doubt the Crown would want to waste resources on a dead man's trial. The boy has been cleared and will not be disinherited, again out of fear the other country would retaliate.

The crown is definitely hunting for this necromancer though, and after a few adventures I intended the Duke to call on the pcs to eliminate him.

Also, I made a mistake, it wasn't viscoumt it was Marquis. Marquis is above earl, then Viscount then Baron.

I am quite sick at the moment and concentration is very difficult. But thank you all for the input, I am definitely going to be writing a lot when my head stops pounding.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Whenever possible, use a carrot in your adventures instead of a stick, especially when it comes to legal matters. It will make most players (and their PCs) much happier to be offered a reward to do something for the Crown after a reward (and a mild scolding) for going a bit too far while taking care of something incredibly important than to be sent up the river without a paddle for violating laws they weren't aware of and be sent on those exact same adventures as a punishment.

[Bronk]

Applicable laws:

Adventurers who happen upon illegal activities and disrupt them may take any gear the peroetrators carry and are entitled to the ill-gotten gains of said perpetrators.

The contention is that some of what the pcs took were not ill gotten and gained through the Earl's legitimate ventures.


If I were a PC, I'd still argue that every holding is tainted by the corrupt money.

Basically, if he's crime-ing, that's his main business, because if not, then why bother? That would make all his other businesses money laundering fronts.

When this kid comes back to run all of this, he should discover that he's now actually in super debt (not just regular debt), and that remainder of the businesses are mostly sham fronts.



The authorities DID question the PCs. They had originally cleared of wrongdoing in the incident.


If I were a PC, this would bother me. However, I'll third what Kyrell1978 said: as long as everyone's still having fun, it's all good.

[Calthropstu]

If I were a PC, I'd still argue that every holding is tainted by the corrupt money.

Basically, if he's crime-ing, that's his main business, because if not, then why bother? That would make all his other businesses money laundering fronts.

When this kid comes back to run all of this, he should discover that he's now actually in super debt (not just regular debt), and that remainder of the businesses are mostly sham fronts.



If I were a PC, this would bother me. However, I'll third what Kyrell1978 said: as long as everyone's still having fun, it's all good.

Maybe, maybe not. But the people of his land rely on that money regardless. The Duke, being a LG paladin has to consider that. Leaving hundreds of legit businessmen out to dry and crippling their economy is definitely something he would be loathe to do.

I am thinking that it will be the Crown that supplies a reward to the PCs, and that the Duke will distribute some of that money to the boy.

[zlefin]

Viscount. It was originally handled by the Viscount Armitrad de Varis du'Gaul.
(I noted after typing that you clarified who made the determination, my points stay the same, just replace viscount in my below text)
then how did the viscount screwup on suhc a basic question of fact as to whether the stuff in the mansion was covered as part of the dungeon? what consequences would he face for making such a basic mistake? (and by the description it sounds like it would be a basic mistake on his part)
why should the PC's be held liable if they followed the law and relied on the proper lawful authorities judgment? so what if they already spent the money, the legal process already said it was theirs.
and at the time PCs couldve said they gathered all treasure pending determination of what is and isnt legit. after all it couldve been stolen otherwise by other people in the conspiracy. so it wouldnt be robbery, they were simply securing the money so it didnt disappear.

Why wasn't the initial determination automatically kicked up to the duke? The facts of the situation would've already justified him or the king bieng involved in the determination. And it's very doubtful the Viscount would've made a decision on the matter without making sure those above him would approve of it. Especially since it in fact involved him making a determination that could hurt an important foreign somebody.

also, if there was any possible grounds for appeal, the money would definitely NOT have been released to the party until the entire appeals process was done. So the law would've waited until the heir had time to get back and contest findings before allowing the party to keep any of the money.

setting aside that you've determined there won't be a title revocation,
On the other country: they'd retaliate over harm to the son, but it's far less clear that they'd be justified in retaliating over a revocation of title, and even less on most of the assets being lost as ill-gotten gains and/or damages. A war of that scale is a pretty big deal, and it wouldn't be done over something like this, especially when there's such a clear case of criminality.
A thing that could happen in many worlds, is that the son (after revocation of title) would be banished back to that other country where he has relatives.


On another matter: sure the heir may have some sway, but he also undoubtedly has enemies/competitors who would like to see him fall and would use this opportunity, and press it in court. There's surely someone who would stand to get the position if the heir were declared unfit, and the title might revert to elsewhere in the bloodline (some cousin goin gback a few generations). If his family is royal, then he also has royal relatives who have interest in scheming against him, and royal-level scheming can be very brutal.


another important legal question is how cross-kingdom titles work. Since the heir is expressly from another kingdom's royal line (however distant), it creates serious conflict concerns about which king he'd really support if there was a problem between the kingdoms. As such, every kingdom has considerable rules about how to handle people who have claims in multiple kingdoms. For example the rule might say you can't have titles in two different kingdoms at once, and if there's a conflict you have to discard one of them (which would then flow along its normal line of succession)

As a practical matter, the biggest problem is: if one of your players is a fan of courtroom dramas, and/or reads a lot of things with courtly intrigue politics (crusader kings 2, game of thrones), then they'll be able to poke alot of holes in whatever plan you have.

[AMFV]

The most important thing here is what the actual laws regarding inheritance are, and regarding vigilantism. So what kind of town and country is this set in?

[Calthropstu]

(I noted after typing that you clarified who made the determination, my points stay the same, just replace viscount in my below text)
then how did the viscount screwup on suhc a basic question of fact as to whether the stuff in the mansion was covered as part of the dungeon? what consequences would he face for making such a basic mistake? (and by the description it sounds like it would be a basic mistake on his part)
why should the PC's be held liable if they followed the law and relied on the proper lawful authorities judgment? so what if they already spent the money, the legal process already said it was theirs.
and at the time PCs couldve said they gathered all treasure pending determination of what is and isnt legit. after all it couldve been stolen otherwise by other people in the conspiracy. so it wouldnt be robbery, they were simply securing the money so it didnt disappear.

Why wasn't the initial determination automatically kicked up to the duke? The facts of the situation would've already justified him or the king bieng involved in the determination. And it's doubtful the Viscount would've made a decision on the matter without making sure those above him would approve of it.



setting aside that you've determined there won't be a title revocation,
On the other country: they'd retaliate over harm to the son, but it's far less clear that they'd be justified in retaliating over a revocation of title, and even less on most of the assets being lost as ill-gotten gains and/or damages. A war of that scale is a pretty big deal, and it wouldn't be done over something like this, especially when there's such a clear case of criminality.
A thing that could happen in many worlds, is that the son (after revocation of title) would be banished back to that other country where he has relatives.


On another matter: sure the heir may have some sway, but he also undoubtedly has enemies/competitors who would like to see him fall and would use this opportunity, and press it in court. There's surely someone who would stand to get the position if the heir were declared unfit, and the title might revert to elsewhere in the bloodline (some cousin goin gback a few generations). If his family is royal, then he also has royal relatives who have interest in scheming against him, and royal-level scheming can be very brutal.


As a practical matter, the biggest problem is: if one of your players is a fan of courtroom dramas, and/or reads a lot of things with courtly intrigue politics (crusader kings 2, game of thrones), then they'll be able to poke alot of holes in whatever plan you have.

Retaliate can have many meanings. The two countries have several trade agreements any one of which could be detrimental if suspended or cancelled.
The two also have many noble intermarriages to cement ties.

The mother is quite upset over her husbands death, but fortunately her ire is directed at the cabal and this necromancer rather than the pcs.

But the Cabal has consderable power and unraveling them is the ultimate goal of this campaign.

[tiercel]

You know, when I saw this thread's title, I immediately though "hahahaha the PCs are so doomed," mostly because the standard adventuring group has an attitude toward the legal system much like that of... well... I'll let Schlock Mercenary (https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2003-01-16) summarize it (in that comic, it's a band of scifi mercenaries, but the attitude and trope basically still apply).

The irony is that the PCs being sued in this scenario are arguably as close to blameless as PCs can be, without being lawyers, pacifists, and/or 100% Dudley-Do-Righters. Sure, fine, if the legal system had an axe to grind with the PCs they could probably find fault, but unless we are going full-on X-Files conspiracy-theory gaming style, the axe should be swinging much more in the direction of the deceased BBEG's affairs and associated necromancer.

I'm just going to add my voice to those saying that (1) of course this depends on your group's playstyle and what folks are having fun with but (2) this is likely to play out a lot more satisfyingly for your players if you pitch the consequences as a reward (or even a barbed reward) than as a punishment.

Perhaps the heir's legal representation, yes, having filed suit, approaches the PCs directly to make the heir's case that the heir actually *needs help* to salvage what is potentially good from the wreckage of what his father was doing -- appealing to the PCs as heroes (or at least enlightened-self-interested let's-earn-a-big-favor sort of folk) in direct negotiations might give better RP and, more to the point, an idea of what your players want to do, rather than a directly confrontational courtroom "beat the rap" challenge (unless one or more of your players are champing at the bit to play Perry Mason).

[Calthropstu]

The most important thing here is what the actual laws regarding inheritance are, and regarding vigilantism. So what kind of town and country is this set in?

It was not vigilante work, the pcs were hired to look into the disappearances. Adventurers in this setting act as special forces who go and do what others can't. In fact, nobility are REQUIRED to be adventurers before they may inherit.
The boy is actually heir apparant by law, his actual estate is managed by his mother (lvl 8 sorceress, her husband was a lvl 9 psychic warrior. The boy is lvl 1 wizard, lvl 1 psion training for mind mage) buteven so, his authority is enough to represent his estate in court.

So yes, the pcs stand to eventually gain estates, but not just yet. My headache has subsided somewhat after eating something so let's give this a shot.

Duke moves the proceedings behind closed doors. Only the viscounts, the Marquis and the pcs as well as the kid and both lawyers.
The Duke first personally thanks the PCs for what they have done then moves on to the matter at hand. He opens with:

"Ordinarily, these proceedings would be a matter of public record. However, it is believed news of an at large necromancer as well as other matters regarding this incident could cause panic.
I have here a letter from the king personally thanking you for uncovering this plot. It authorises me to distribute 20,000 gold as a reward. But first, let's lay this matter to rest."

Then the kid and his lawyer will present their case, the pcs and lawyer will present theirs and i will have to decide from a series of rolls and their considerations how much of the 20k gold the pcs get.

Edit: in fact, I may have the Marquis suggest that the boy join the group as a journeyman adventurer.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So, you dangle money in front of the PCs, then make them hate the kid for taking it away from them?

Or the exact same thing from the other direction? I mean, they already killed the kid's dad.

[Deophaun]

So, you dangle money in front of the PCs, then make them hate the kid for taking it away from them?
It sounds like there is a way for the PCs to gain a sum (possibly the whole) through the court process. Which is fair.

I mean, I hate the kid regardless, and I know whatever gold the kid gets is going to return to me eventually. Plus what I get for selling him to a cruel farmer.

[AMFV]

It was not vigilante work, the pcs were hired to look into the disappearances. Adventurers in this setting act as special forces who go and do what others can't. In fact, nobility are REQUIRED to be adventurers before they may inherit.

Well then, presumably there is legal precedent here. I mean if the adventurers are part of a system that has existed and had previously investigated noble individuals, what is the precedent regarding how loot is treated? Is it forfeit? There should be a solid legal precedent, which your characters should definitely be aware of.

And if the child hasn't done adventuring yet, then he's probably ineligible for inheritance. Depending on your laws and how you treat primogeniture, that may mean that the estate defaults to control of the state. Especially if the mother is not eligible to inherit property. Also in many places violating the law might forfeit your estates and lands and titles, that's an extremely common type of thing. Depending on how harshly slavery is viewed in this setting that might just do that.



The boy is actually heir apparant by law, his actual estate is managed by his mother (lvl 8 sorceress, her husband was a lvl 9 psychic warrior. The boy is lvl 1 wizard, lvl 1 psion training for mind mage) buteven so, his authority is enough to represent his estate in court.

But as you've stated, he's not eligible to inherit because he has not completed his adventuring term. What would normally happen to the wealth in a case like this? I mean you can't have the setting in a vacuum here, especially with something that should be a relatively common thing. So precedent is going to be important here. If a father dies and his son hasn't went adventuring yet, does that mean that the wealth is held by an executor until such time, does that mean that it defaults to the state? Basically you need to flesh out the precedents in your setting and the laws concerning inheritance past the fairly simple (you need to be an adventurer to gain inheritance).

It's also important to remember that the material wealth is not usually the bulk of a nobleman's wealth, his wealth is in land which he can lease and control and profit from, and the players can't loot that.



Duke moves the proceedings behind closed doors. Only the viscounts, the Marquis and the pcs as well as the kid and both lawyers.
The Duke first personally thanks the PCs for what they have done then moves on to the matter at hand. He opens with:

"Ordinarily, these proceedings would be a matter of public record. However, it is believed news of an at large necromancer as well as other matters regarding this incident could cause panic.
I have here a letter from the king personally thanking you for uncovering this plot. It authorises me to distribute 20,000 gold as a reward. But first, let's lay this matter to rest."

Then the kid and his lawyer will present their case, the pcs and lawyer will present theirs and i will have to decide from a series of rolls and their considerations how much of the 20k gold the pcs get.

Edit: in fact, I may have the Marquis suggest that the boy join the group as a journeyman adventurer.

I would make it more complicated. I mean some of the Marquis probably stand to gain some of that estate on the cheap if the boy can't inherit it, other people wouldn't want that to happen, and still others would want the boy to come into his own out of compassion or loyalty. If you only have the two sides here it's going to feel really hollow on what shouldn't be a very hollow situation.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think the court session as laid out will be fine. There's a lot of gold on the table (7th-level WBL being 19 000 gp), and we know there are sound arguments on both sides, so there's something to play for.

It'll be a matter for the court to decide to what extent "ill-gotten gains" are spoils of the adventurers' profession, specifically to determine the extent to which money-laundering (and by extension, other kinds of fraud) "taint" goods. Depending on the outcome, the PCs may be entitled to everything or nothing, probably somewhere in the middle. This should be revealed by a lowish Knowledge check DC, with check results 5 and 10 higher providing additional information on past judgements on the matter, granting a circumstance bonus on Diplomacy checks in court.

It'll be a secondary matter--if the PCs are smart enough to bring it up--for the court to decide whether the initial investigation by the Viscount was sufficiently thorough, or missed crucial facts. In the latter case, the Viscount is partially or wholly responsible for the PCs' nasty surprise, and that might affect the verdict. It should be noted that simply bringing this line of argumentation on the table may hurt relations with the Viscount in question, due to the slight to his honour. I would recommend a Knowledge check to reveal the possibility of this argument, and a success by 5 or more reveals the potentially harmful effects of using it.

I have some homebrew Diplomacy rules that are relevant to the situation, so I might as well copy them over. It's a bit wordy, but I hope it's useful.
D&D’s vanilla social skills are too simple to reflect complicated negotiations. These new rules aim to involve more skills in the process of convincing NPCs to make agreements with PCs, and in a structured way that encourages in-world action.

Negotiation proceeds according to three phases: information gathering, argumentation, and agreement.

Information gathering
Many skills can be used by PCs and NPCs to gather information about the interests of the other party. Not all skills are available in all situations; the DM decides what information is available. Each successful check in an applicable skill yields a single bit of information, an interest. The objective of this phase is to gather as many interests as possible. These interests are used in phase two.


Appraise: A successful check reveals something about a merchant’s goods.
Bluff: A successful check creates a fake interest that other parties may discover normally*.
Bluff: Each time you would reveal an interest, a successful check conceals that interest.
Decipher Script: A successful check reveals something about secret or obscure communication.
Forgery: A successful check creates a fake interest that other parties may discover normally*.
Forgery: Each time you would reveal an interest, a successful check conceals that interest.
Gather Information: A successful check reveals one interest available to any other skill.
Knowledge (various): A successful check reveals one interest of a creature identified by that skill.
Knowledge (various): A successful check reveals one interest pertaining to that field of knowledge.
Knowledge (history): A successful check reveals one interest that has existed for a long time.
Knowledge (local): A successful check reveals one interest available to any other skill, pertaining to the local area.
Knowledge (nobility and royalty): A successful check reveals intrigue or conflict that involves one or more parties.
Knowledge (religion): A successful check reveals religious intrigue or conflict, or a piece of doctrine.
Knowledge (the planes): A successful check reveals one planar interest.
Martial Lore: A successful check reveals something about an initiator’s maneuvers.
Psicraft: A successful check reveals something about a manifester’s powers.
Sense Motive: A successful check reveals that an interest is false or concealed.
Sense Motive: A successful check reveals a personal, emotional interest, such as a specific like or dislike.
Spellcraft: A successful check reveals something about a caster’s spells.
Survival: A successful check reveals something about tracks.


*Can be another party’s interest, though you take a -5 penalty to do so.

By default, a party is aware of all of its own interests, but it can still research them to gain an advantage in negotiations. A party gains a +5 bonus on checks made to research its own interests. Parties engaged in frequent negotiations often research their own interests as well as others’, to gain an advantage in phase two.
Concealed and Faked Interests: Concealed and faked interests are researched normally, but the DM rolls a Sense Motive check in secret. If the check equals or exceeds the Bluff or Forgery check used to conceal or fake an interest, the interest is discovered normally (in the case of a concealed interest) or revealed as a ruse (for a faked interest). If not, the interest is not discovered (if concealed) or discovered as if true (if faked).
Party Like and Dislike: Treat a party’s particular dislike of another party as an interest (hidden or not), which may be revealed through various skills (typically Gather Information, Knowledge, or Sense Motive, but Martial Lore might identify a crusader’s alignment, for example). Of course, it is possible to fake dislike of another party to force them to increase their offer--if you can make the point stick.

Typically, peasants and labourers don’t have many interests. However, a scion of a great house may have many interests.
For example, a noble might:


Trade in goods that are appear to be of high quality, but break or fall apart quickly. (Appraise)
Pretend to support the temple of Heironeous. (Bluff)
Correspond with informants or allies in code. (Decipher Script)
Create highly incriminating reports and leave them in the Chancellor’s secretaire. (Forgery)
Inhabit a house built and maintained by dwarven stonemasons. (Knowledge (architecture and engineering))
Belong to a great house with an old feud against the king’s house. (Knowledge (history))
Ally with another great house, all the while preparing to abandon them. (Knowledge (nobility and royalty))
Display covert signs of a fervent worshiper of Hextor. (Knowledge (religion))
Appear to be involved in some negotations with devils. (Knowledge (the planes))
Fight as though trained by the Royal Academy. (Martial Lore)
Manifest as though influenced by the Memories of the Stygian Compact. (Psicraft)
Cast as though they didn’t pay attention in school, and never learned Draconic properly. (Spellcraft)
Take daily walks to the shed behind the large fountain, where the bodies were found. (Survival)

Not all of these interests are relevant to each agreement. For example, if you want to support the Royal Academy in building a new headquarters, you might bring up the noble’s history with the Academy, their connection with dwarven stonemasons, and Heironeous’ (or Hextor’s) military bent.

If, on the other hand, you wanted to blackmail the noble into giving you money and magic items, you might bring up the upcoming betrayal, devil negotiations, faulty goods, and the skeletons bodies in the cupboard shed.



Argumentation
Each party gathers the other parties’ interests, typically at a distance, before entering negotiation with the other party (or parties). While the parties are negotiating, additional interests can still be discovered, concealed, and even faked. During a conversation, Knowledge or Sense Motive checks can provide on-the-spot insight, while drawn-out negotiations by courier can allow weeks or months to give information time to travel.

The objective of this phase is to frame each interest in the most advantageous way. Each interest framed in your favour tilts the final agreement--made in phase three--further in your favour.

Discussion Rounds: The DM makes a list of all interests to be discussed, ordered by the DC to reveal the interest. The discussion proceeds in rounds, or arguments. Interests with a lower DC--use the Bluff or Forgery DC for hidden or fake interests, if they are higher--are discussed first. All parties make one Diplomacy or Intimidate check for the interest at hand. If a party was especially successful at revealing an interest (by beating the required DC by 5 or more), they receive a +2 bonus on the check for every 5 points by which they beat the check.
A party may always choose to forfeit a round by not making a check. If all parties forfeit a round, the corresponding interest is simply not discussed, and nobody wins that round.

Fake Interests: Fake interests receive a round normally--the DM should not reveal it is a ‘fake round’. Parties aware that the interest under discussion is faked can either share or withhold this information. Parties are always aware of the falseness of the interests they have faked and fake interests ascribed to them (created by other parties). Note that the party that created the fake interest does not need to be present at the negotiation.
Revealing an interest as fake instantly ends that round of argumentation, and counts as a “win” for each party that admits to being aware that it was faked. To pretend to be aware that the interest was fake, a party must succeed on a Bluff check at a -5 penalty against each other party’s Sense Motive. If one check fails, the round does not count as a win for that party.
If the interest is not immediately revealed as fake, parties unaware that an interest is faked can attempt to discover that fact, by making a Sense Motive check against Bluff or Forgery as normal, but at a -5 penalty. If successful, the party can then immediately reveal the interest as fake.
If nobody reveals an interest as fake, it is argued on normally.

Hidden Interests: Hidden interests are not argued on, unless some party chooses to bring them up. A party can always bring up one of its own hidden interests to surprise the other parties, which can be advantageous if public interests appear to be going the other parties’ way. Parties unaware of a hidden interest before the round comes up take a -5 penalty arguing that round.

Winning an Argument: The highest check “wins” that argument, earning it for the next phase.
The winner gets a -2 penalty on further checks of the same type (Diplomacy or Intimidate) to win arguments in this negotiation. As a negotiation drags on, parties get tired of arguments going one way only.
Anyone who made an Intimidate check in a round that was won via Diplomacy takes a -4 penalty to subsequent Intimidate checks to win arguments in this negotiation. The reverse applies, as well: Anyone who made a Diplomacy check in a round that was won via Intimidation takes a -4 penalty to subsequent Diplomacy checks to win arguments in this negotiation. It is better to use the carrot and the stick, but even then, you can’t win ‘em all.
Some parties may be particularly sensitive to Diplomacy or Intimidation. The DM can change the penalties above to account for that. For example, a wraith might ignore most Diplomacy, but fear its destruction, while a dragon might laugh at most Intimidation, but listen to sweet reason.

Breaking Off Negotations: A party may at any time choose to break off negotiations. This means no agreement is reached, one way or another. Depending on the relationship between parties, this may severely impact further negotiations. For example, if Party A breaks off negotiations with Party B when Party B was ahead, Party B gains a new interest involving Party A (a specific dislike, or a desire to reopen and resolve negotiations--either way, this interest must be resolved in the next negotiation involving Party A and Party B).
If all parties involved are willing, a past negotiations that was broken off can be reopened. Essentially, this counts as a really long break between rounds of argumentation. Parties can agree to cancel certain arguments, either to ignore them entirely (if the interest is no longer applicable) or to discuss them again. If you need to start a negotiation to discuss the terms of the opening of the negotiation, you are playing a political game.

Re-using Interests: It is possible to use the same interest multiple times in successive negotiations, but the DM may decide to apply a penalty to checks to argue the same interest to the same party repeatedly.


Note that a “win” may represent different things.

For example, if you wanted to blackmail the noble from phase 1, winning the argument about Hextor worship means you convinced the noble it would be troublesome if that story were to come out.
If, on the other hand, you wanted to support the Royal Academy, winning the argument about Hextor worship means you convinced the noble that Hextor would be pleased if the noble supported a military institution. Of course, winning the argument about Heironeous would have the same result, unless the noble chose to reveal it as a fake argument.

Agreement
When all arguments have been resolved, the final agreement is drawn up. This final phase is essentially the Giant’s version of the Diplomacy skill, except that his modifiers are replaced by the arguments from the previous phase.

[Crake]

So let me get this straight. All of this can be done to adventurers, but they couldnt do this to shut down a crime boss? That is absurd.

I gotta echo this sentiment. Either the players were enacting citizen justice, and the laws allow for this, or you shouldn't have had an adventure where the only plausible resolution was "hand your evidence over to the authorities and let them sort it out". I honestly gotta say, just drop this idea for suing the players, it's not that the players might not have fun with it, they very well may do, but it introduces a world where the PCs will never get involved in politics and nobles, because that's not their jurisdiction, and makes the players look stupid for not, you know, going and calling the police.

[Bohandas]

The PCs should argue that the other operations were part of the criminal enterprise by virtue of being a front for it



So let me get this straight. All of this can be done to adventurers, but they couldnt do this to shut down a crime boss? That is absurd.

Clearly somebody is on the take, which could be a set up for a mystery adventure

[Darrin]

Get a lawyer for the PC's that works extremely well to discredit the innocent noble and draws his charactern intelligence and pride into question.


Keyrock the Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22192901&postcount=80) is available at a very affordable rate (mostly because coins made out of different kinds of metals confuses and frightens him).

[JyP]

Keyrock the Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22192901&postcount=80) is available at a very affordable rate (mostly because coins made out of different kinds of metals confuses and frightens him).
Another possibility, if the adventurers are kind of strangers to the realm, is to introduce a way more metal justice system with :

- trial by champion to the death - only the survivor had the gods with him of course !
- trial by boiling the right hand, frankish style - if you heal properly it means you didn't lie
- the witch trial, if you float in your big armors :smallbiggrin:

[Calthropstu]

The PCs should argue that the other operations were part of the criminal enterprise by virtue of being a front for it




Clearly somebody is on the take, which could be a set up for a mystery adventure

Or nobles have extra priviledges and can set up meetings with high ranking people.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Or nobles have extra priviledges and can set up meetings with high ranking people.By the sounds of things, the "paladin" in charge is actually a blackguard, and he's encouraging the other nobles to get away with all sorts of horrible things. They get extra protection from the law (as you put it, they're "untouchable"). This is not something a paladin can allow and still remain a paladin.

Someone should really take him out before he lets anyone else get away with stuff like this.

[AMFV]

Or nobles have extra priviledges and can set up meetings with high ranking people.

Nobles having extra privileges I can understand and accept. Nobles having privileges that make them immune to removal from office by adventurers which is a stated and accepted method of removing them from office as you stated, and immune to those consequences, I cannot.

[Kish]

By the sounds of things, the "paladin" in charge is actually a blackguard, and he's encouraging the other nobles to get away with all sorts of horrible things. They get extra protection from the law (as you put it, they're "untouchable"). This is not something a paladin can allow and still remain a paladin.
While I agree with the sentiment that it is not something that should be allowed with all of my Chaotic heart, I do feel obligated to point out that paladins are restricted to a lesser form of good known as Lawful Good, and thus prone to choking on it being necessary to overturn the system.

[Calthropstu]

By the sounds of things, the "paladin" in charge is actually a blackguard, and he's encouraging the other nobles to get away with all sorts of horrible things. They get extra protection from the law (as you put it, they're "untouchable"). This is not something a paladin can allow and still remain a paladin.

Someone should really take him out before he lets anyone else get away with stuff like this.

He didn't LET anything. He had no clue. Would you expect to be allowed into the governors mansion to talk about concerns where you live?

People on that level have hundreds, if not thousands, of concerns to worry about. Plus, the PCs didn't have the CHANCE to legally depose him. From the time they found the letters implicating him to the time they found the half mile tunnel leading to the mansion less than an hour had passed.

Since they were in pursuit of one of the victims they legally had probable cause to follow the tunnel which opened into the mansion. They legit had just cause to kill him since he refused to go down quietly.

They believed they had legal precedence to include the mansion as an extension of the dungeon. It was originallt ruled in their favor.

The boy and his mother APPEALED. Appeals in my world are very rare so they had no reason to expect it.

As for the Paladi , he fully intends to bring "righteous justice down upon those responsible" and has sent agents to look for more of the slavery victims. In fact, he intends to hire the pcs himself. I am giving the pcs the choices of:
Going after the necromancer's minions.
Going after the slave traders and the remaining kudnap victims.
Taking down the network of bandits being used by the cabal to attack merchants.

Or d: leave the kingdom to its own devices and look for other adventures elsewhere.

I am running a true sandbox campaign, anything the pcs decide I will prep something. Knowing the cleric player, he'll call out for undead... Blood?

The fighter will likely want to rescue the kidnapees.

The other two I have no clue.

But for the lawsuit itself I have quite a bit prepped.

[Peat]

A competent Duke with access to a scry and die level Wizard should be pretty clued up on his nobility's doings imo.

[Calthropstu]

A competent Duke with access to a scry and die level Wizard should be pretty clued up on his nobility's doings imo.

Right, because an equally powerful necromancer would have no way of blocking standard scrying.

[zlefin]

I maintain that calling it an "appeal" doesn't address numerous holes that have already been poked into it; most notably that the lower level court would most certainly have gotten the Duke's ok before going ahead with such an important ruling. and that while appeals may be rare, it'd still be standard procedure to wait for appeals processes to be completed before fully implementing a ruling, especially when it's a big important one. i.e. they'd have checked whether the heir wants to appeal the ruling before implementing it.

[Deophaun]

He didn't LET anything. He had no clue. Would you expect to be allowed into the governors mansion to talk about concerns where you live?
Used to be you could walk up to the White House and speak to the President. 'Course, you had to mind the hogs back then.

[Calthropstu]

I maintain that calling it an "appeal" doesn't address numerous holes that have already been poked into it; most notably that the lower level court would most certainly have gotten the Duke's ok before going ahead with such an important ruling. and that while appeals may be rare, it'd still be standard procedure to wait for appeals processes to be completed before fully implementing a ruling, especially when it's a big important one. i.e. they'd have checked whether the heir wants to appeal the ruling before implementing it.
Implementing what?

And there is no need to wait for appeals process except in the case of executions.

[Crake]

Right, because an equally powerful necromancer would have no way of blocking standard scrying.

Would blocking scrying from the authorities be tantamount to impeding an investigation, and thus be punishable?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Would blocking scrying from the authorities be tantamount to impeding an investigation, and thus be punishable?

Probably not. I'd assume the nobility (and the crown) has a vested interest in keeping some dealings secret, both for their private ventures and as a part of the government.
Blocking scrying is kind of a necessity for politicians in any D&D world. Banning it would do the nation more harm than good.

Scrying is hardly the only divination though, and even comprehensive divination defenses can be worked around or outright disabled if you have access to the person in question and their property.
So they may not have caught the crimes the PC's uncovered, but they can still help with the investigation now that they know what to look for.

[Jack_Simth]

Maybe in this setting, conviction for treason is not automatically accompanied by "forfeiture" for their whole family.

Perhaps, because the nobles, when the nation came into being, didn't want their liege to be able to accumulate land and power via treason accusations - so they arranged things so that forfeiture, even for treason, was impossible, even if the execution of nobles was not.
Not a concern. The king can't get rid of the nobility, for the same reason land grants happen in the first place: One person can't manage it all. Oh, he can elevate someone to noble status, he may be able to dispose of specific nobles periodically. However: Those layers exist because they're necessary. However it's handled, there MUST be multiple authority layers on a large organization involving human-like folks. In general, lower levels tend to mimic the higher levels.

If a country has has a president, there's going to be a bunch of states / provinces (each of which is liable to have a governor). A state/province is liable to have a bunch of counties (each of which is liable to have a County Commissioner or something), each of which is liable to have a bunch of cities (each of which is liable to have a mayor). And so on. If the country has a congress, then the states/provinces almost always will as well (and the cities/counties will probably have some form of council that serves the same function).

If a country has a king, then the king is going to have some number of dukes/dutchesses that answer to the king ... each of whom is going to have some number of marquess/marchioness that answer to them ... each of whom will have some number of earls/countesses ... each of whom will have some number of viscounts/viscountesses ... each of which will have some number of barons/baronesses ... each of which is actually responsible for the day-to-day running of an area. Note that titles are generally cumulative, and a person at any given level is also all levels beneath: the King will also be a Duke, and a Marquess, and an Earl, and a Viscount, and a Baron.

However it's named, such things must exist. The king can dispose of a noble or two, but he cannot get rid of them in mass. If nothing else, they'll mass against him if he tries, rules or no rules.

[jdizzlean]

The heir's estate is based on (I assume) illegal and highly unethical slavery. What are the slavery laws in this country? What are the laws on adventurers taking down illegal operations like this?


Hence why I would have no respect for the court system. The game's rigged. I would just content myself with a nice, cold glass of revenge after it's fallen off the radar and reclaim everything I lost (and then some).


Before the advent of the 20th century, that's an adult. I call BS. Especially as he is a noble and now the first in line, which means his education is all about learning how to maintain his father's estate so that he can one day take it over. He didn't know? Pull the other one.

Maybe, maybe if he didn't concern troll for the slaves in a transparent attempt to get some further payback on the PCs, I might consider that the kid is merely a greedy heir and let him off with a spanking. But no. His life ends getting rendered down for glue.


Okay, so nobles are untouchable.

The government abets and abides slavery, necromantic sacrifices, and other horrors. It's LE, at best.

The law is corrupt.

Time to take the government down, put all the nobles on trial for the crimes against the people they obviously commit regularly, then put the guilty to the torch, stripping them of titles and property in the process.

It's the least that the cause of justice demands.

Get the more Good-aligned nations involved. Turn the Good gods against them. Save the peasants and the innocent and burn the rest. Then establish a fair government based on a constitutional democracy/monarchy/whatever to ensure that the people all have proper rights, responsibilities, and freedoms.

i made it to the end of the 2nd page, so forgive me if this was posted already.

but PLEASE tell me that the cleric is of the St Cuthbert bent, who will having seen this travesty of justice, and the court and law flaunted so for the benefit of the noble caste, will call in his bretheren to lay waste to the entire countryside and then set up a proper court system... I would start swinging the cudgel the very moment some upstart twit tried to reclaim anything from an obviously evil empire as his "inheritance".

[gooddragon1]

From an NG point of view I'd advocate arbitration. I'd also treat the adventurers as a societal resource and realize that they incur expenses in dealing with high difficulty problems which governments are not as capable of handling. I'd recommend that the party contribute sufficient restitution to allow the heir to reconstruct one of the legitimate businesses of his choice within reason to allow him a descent livelihood.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Just thought of something else I'd do if I were the PCs: I'd go looking for the dead noble's/the heir's political enemies. Those who would want to see his house dragged through the dirt, their arms attainted, their works come to nothing. I'd see what assistance they could provide, what influence they could wield.

You mentioned the heir's mother is 23rd in line to the throne (which in the real world, in my local monarchy at least, means very little at all: your monarchy may vary if families are large and mortality is high): possibly the 22nd in line to the throne, her elder sister, hates her guts and despises her nephew. Or the 18th in line thinks everyone 20th and downwards is a nobody, illegitimate, or an enemy.

[Peat]

If I was a Duke, I'd find it somewhat suspicious if one of my subordinates had suddenly got powerful scrying defences out of nowhere. I'd want to know.

But whatevs. I raise this because like many gamers, governments that are highly competent at stopping adventurers from doing what they want to do but not with other things get my nose twitching, but if Calthropstu's players are enjoying it it doesn't really matter.



What I do think would be a good idea though is to offer them solid options on how to plea bargain their way to going back to adventuring quickly without giving up new shiny toys. Maybe a spot of pro bono slaver eradicating with recovered loot going to repay. And also, depending on players, plea bargaining without going through a lengthy trial. I'd hate to spend 30 minutes going through a trial in game to get to the same place I could have got to within 5 minutes of "lets just settle this sensibly".

[Calthropstu]

From an NG point of view I'd advocate arbitration. I'd also treat the adventurers as a societal resource and realize that they incur expenses in dealing with high difficulty problems which governments are not as capable of handling. I'd recommend that the party contribute sufficient restitution to allow the heir to reconstruct one of the legitimate businesses of his choice within reason to allow him a descent livelihood.

The point of contention is a chest containing 15,000gp. This was the money earned from all legal ventures.
The slavery and treason was very new, less than 3 months so mney lau dering likely would not have started. In fact, the payment for the first slave shipment (4,000) was found in the caves.


The boy NEEDS half of the 15,000 to prevent complete collapse of any businesses, but those businesses would be seriously hurt. 10,000 would see to keeping the businesses running at tolerable levels, 12,000 would be full operation capacity and 15,000 would alllow the businesses to thrive and grow.

Keep in mind the Duke has to consider what is best for the country here as well. Taxes generated from these ventures is not insgnificant.

On the other hand, these adventurers have proven to be quite capable. And they desperately need people to take down this Cabal.

On yet another hand there's the boy's mother who wields considerable political clout.

There's a lot at stake here and any way the Duke acts people can easily find fault. (Yet another reason he wants this behind clised doors.)

[Deophaun]

Keep in mind the Duke has to consider what is best for the country here as well.
Going easy on the family of a traitor doesn't qualify.

And yes, it is legitimate to punish the entire family. This is nobility: their legitimacy comes from their blood; from the virtues of their fathers. The sins flow through them just as strong. This child has done nothing for the Crown on his own to warrant consideration. Everything the heir has is because of who he was born to. Everything.

It makes far more sense for the Duke to take these business ventures away from the child and either take them for himself, give them to another vassal, or award them to the PCs with title (which would require that the PCs maintain them; so you probably want to just skip that option). That the heir cannot run the businesses without those funds is irrelevant because the heir shouldn't be a part of this.

If you want to say the heir didn't know, that's still incompetence on his part. Would the Duke want to put someone who can be so ignorant of what is going on around him in charge of overseeing anything? How can that be good for the country?

Edit: For an escape hatch about what you've already done, I'd say the Duke is only humoring this brat's appeal because he wants to see if the PCs are trustworthy and willing to bow to his authority, adventurers being a rather unpredictable lot. He's just getting what little use he can out of the otherwise worthless kid.

[Peat]

I don't see why the Duke can't arrange for very considerate lines of credit to keep the Heir's estates going - or, for that matter, the PCs if they're very good at diplomacy. Its not like a powerful and privileged nobility getting loans that are paid as much by favours as actual money is anything new. The PCs offering to be agents in that matter isn't an unreasonable form of restitution.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The government is both inept and corrupt, but they want the adventuring party helping them because of those two points. After having given this some thought, I'd say, "Screw it; give the ponce the money. We're not cleaning up your own messes ever again. Do it yourself. We're leaving." If the government can't be arsed to police their own noble caste and instead purposefully make them "nigh untouchable," then the entire caste is the enemy, including those who protect them. I'd invest in some major divination protections and then start in on ways to take the entire government (and the entire noble caste) out. Rival governments for resources, internecine squabbles to weaken them from the inside, etc.

I don't care if the paladin is a paladin. He is as corrupt as any, given that he's protecting the system that allows this all. Corrupt and hopelessly incompetent, to ignore what's happening literally right under him.

[Albions_Angel]

Hold up. The government isnt inept. Sure its corrupt, but no more so than any other world government.

You have:

A LG/LN government and crown who have scry and die powers.
A noble class containing many LE elements, also with scry and die powers.
Adventuring parties of various levels.

The noble classes all want a shot at power, but they cant just kill off the duke. And the duke and government wants rid of the evil portions of the noble classes, but its not easy to disentangle those portions from the legit ones.

And then there is a party that might murder someone and skip town.

The OP has said a party that does that will get hunted or scry-and-died. As a DM, I hope he would choose the former, and simply leave the latter as a "well they can technically do it". But that makes sense. You punish the unlawful.

"But why," the forum cries, "doesnt the crown scry and die the noble badguys?" Because its never that simple. The nobles have anti scry. EVEN IF THEY DIDNT, you cant go knocking off lords. They might not be the head of the organisation you want to destroy, but just a handy face. They might be mind controlled. Even if they are the head of it, they might have many legitimate businesses, and their heir is unprepared to take over. And while you, as the duke, spend thousands of GP, months of time, and tons of material components, spies lives, etc, trying to get THIS GUY OVER HERE, his friends, or even his enemies, have just spotted that you arnt paying THEM any attention and they make their power play.

Similarly, why dont the nobles go after the duke? Because resources invested in taking him out leave you exposed to other nobles.

You can kill the odd adventurers party, and certainly hold them to account, but you cant win a nuclear stand off.

And even if one did make a move, and the whole thing descended into chaos, THE COUNTRY NEXT DOOR WOULD THE PICK THAT MOMENT TO MOVE IN!

Not everything runs on the simple morality of 4 guys with fireballs and big sharp sticks, bouncing from town to town slaughtering dragons. The rest of the world as to play a dangerous game of politics, and sometimes its better the devil you know, than the devil you dont.

The PCs can do what they want. Kill the heir, dont kill the heir, give him the money, run away, pledge service, become an anti-slavery hit squad, but they cant, at level 7, hope to understand the complex web of tenuous stability that wraps up this world.

[Deophaun]

The noble classes all want a shot at power, but they cant just kill off the duke. And the duke and government wants rid of the evil portions of the noble classes, but its not easy to disentangle those portions from the legit ones.
Actually, you're wrong on this.

The reason there's the strong whiff of systemic corruption here is that everyone should be trying to put as much distance, publicly, between them and what this noble did. There are some things that are indefensible, where everyone's hands are tied. This is one. Even the heir should be slinking off into the woodwork, just hoping to survive with something intact. That the kid is comfortable pitching a fit about it is bad enough. That he is humored is damning of the system.

If the nobility is no longer considered noble, then the whole thing falls apart. It becomes easy to topple a Duke. It becomes easy for rabble rousers to form mobs to march on castles. It becomes difficult to maintain the loyalty of vassals; your men might not fight for you when that mob shows up. That mob might not show up alone, but also backed by an army from a rival who knows your claim is dead.

That's why I look at this and say the court is rigged and the kid is guilty as sin. And stupid, as well. The smart move was for him to work from the shadows to get back what he lost and inflict his revenge. The party apparently wasn't even aware of his existence until he foolishly had them served. That play only makes sense if the kid is confident that the rest of the nobles will back him. That means they were also in on it.

[hamishspence]

If you want to say the heir didn't know, that's still incompetence on his part. Would the Duke want to put someone who can be so ignorant of what is going on around him in charge of overseeing anything?

"Being raised in a foreign country" is why the kid doesn't know - because the events aren't happening "around him" but a whole country away.

[Deophaun]

"Being raised in a foreign country" is why the kid doesn't know - because the events aren't happening "around him" but a whole country away.
What's a country away when magic's involved?

He is the heir. It's his responsibility to know. He literally had one job and he failed. Strangers found out about it first. Doesn't matter what his excuse is.

Or are we going to say that traitors can safeguard their family's name by just sending one of their children to live somewhere else? The tradition of trading hostages was meant to ensure loyalty, not allow disloyalty.

[Albions_Angel]

Actually, you're wrong on this.

The reason there's the strong whiff of systemic corruption here is that everyone should be trying to put as much distance, publicly, between them and what this noble did. There are some things that are indefensible, where everyone's hands are tied. This is one. Even the heir should be slinking off into the woodwork, just hoping to survive with something intact. That the kid is comfortable pitching a fit about it is bad enough. That he is humored is damning of the system.

If the nobility is no longer considered noble, then the whole thing falls apart. It becomes easy to topple a Duke. It becomes easy for rabble rousers to form mobs to march on castles. It becomes difficult to maintain the loyalty of vassals; your men might not fight for you when that mob shows up. That mob might not show up alone, but also backed by an army from a rival who knows your claim is dead.

That's why I look at this and say the court is rigged and the kid is guilty as sin. And stupid, as well. The smart move was for him to work from the shadows to get back what he lost and inflict his revenge. The party apparently wasn't even aware of his existence until he foolishly had them served. That play only makes sense if the kid is confident that the rest of the nobles will back him. That means they were also in on it.

Its also easy to put early rabble rousers down.

The thing is, as stupid as you, a (hopefully) good person, thinks it is, it DOES happen in the REAL world, as well as across many fantasy worlds. Politicians in otherwise good countries (by some metric) own companies that employ slave labour, or hide their earnings so they arnt taxed, or hold backwards views and enforce them at home. And some of them get taken down, and others, well, others seem immune to public pressure. And the public is born into the system, and is too used to it, or too apathetic, to respond. And the good guys in power? What can they do? Push too hard and they get kicked out. But from their enemies perspectives? Well, better to have the good guy in power, but impotent to stop you, than another evil guy that ISNT YOU and wants to remove any threat.

Lets take a possible scenario here. Maybe its one the DM has thought of. Maybe it isnt.

PCs go and kill this evil slave dude (ESD). We know ESD also had many legitimate enterprises, that probably contributed a significant amount of GDP. He also has a son, sent away at a young age, and who would be hostile to his plans if he knew about them. Now, lets imagine that AT THE SAME TIME, the Duke IS taking action, and has had a cover operation, involving many high paid spys and magic users, for YEARS, infiltrating ESDs operations, trying to find who else is involved, what their defences are, how best to shut it down without jeopardising the lives of all the legitimate workers (you cant just nationalise everything. It doesnt work.), etc. Thanks to the PCs, POOF. There goes all that time, effort and money. The Duke is now significantly weaker than he was because he expended all that effort on NOTHING. But he isnt evil, so he doenst pursue the PCs.

Theres now a bunch of people out of work, and a bunch of slaves who now need gainful employment, and maybe the PCs didnt get all the slave drivers and necromancers. So a bunch of mini-cults spring up. And the Duke now has to spend time and money supporting the workers and slaves, AND trying to stop the spread of necromancy, all while trying to appear that he isnt weakened by the lost work from the previous job-gone-wrong, so one of the other nobles doesnt make a power play, either to take the crown, or to leverage some new power, or to seize the assets of ESD.

Meanwhile, Jr comes back. Maybe he already knew what his father was doing, but was worried he would just become a pawn in his fathers games, or would be used by one of the other nobles, or would draw the ire of a lower level party of adventurers who couldnt tackle ESD himself, but could go after Jr. Even if he didnt know all that, hes back now, and wants to reform his family. First things first, lets get the legit business back on track. Lets make sure everyone gets paid... WHO STOLE ALL OUR MONEY!?

Oh, its that group of adventurers. Ok. Deep breath. I dont want revenge. I dont want them dead. i am not ESD. But I DO need that money back. WHAT DO YOU MEAN THEY SPENT IT! Ok. Im going to take them to court.

Duke and court see an opportunity to install Jr as an ally, but only if the court does actually judge the trial fairly, and do the right thing. Jr sees an opportunity to recover from this mess and start making positive changes. Maybe he is nieve and will die to another noble, or maybe he will be named adopted heir to the duke and change the face of the country. PCs either get gainful employment, or make powerful enemies if they are found against and do/dont deliver.

Its not perfect, but then its fantasy. And maybe it doesnt make sense to some of you, but then you can run it differently next time. The point is, there is SOME logic behind this, and if you dig a little deeper, you can MAKE it work out without having to use divine intervention.

And at the end of the day, the whole thing has happened, the DM has said the court isnt rigged, its not your game, so lets try and give the OP what he wanted. Opinions on what we, as PCs, would do in this situation.

As I sort of stated back on page 1, I would, as a PC, accept a term of service, especially if it was to help change the face of this family, and perhaps the country.

[Peat]

What's a country away when magic's involved?

He is the heir. It's his responsibility to know. He literally had one job and he failed. Strangers found out about it first. Doesn't matter what his excuse is.

Or are we going to say that traitors can safeguard their family's name by just sending one of their children to live somewhere else? The tradition of trading hostages was meant to ensure loyalty, not allow disloyalty.

I don't really recall "Knowing everything happening to my father or his estates" being considered a heir's job in Medieval times. Stripping estates from traitors' heirs, sure, but that wasn't because the heir was meant to know. Just straight up draconian deterrence. Plus a good way to get more estates with which to reward loyal followers.

But that doesn't mean every traitor had their estates taken away and every traitor's child was damned forever.

[Deophaun]

Its also easy to put early rabble rousers down.
Emphasis on the "early." And there's a further problem: these rabble rousers can easily be lead by the very people who just took down another noble. Maybe not so easy.

The thing is, as stupid as you, a (hopefully) good person, thinks it is, it DOES happen in the REAL world, as well as across many fantasy worlds. Politicians in otherwise good countries (by some metric) own companies that employ slave labour, or hide their earnings so they arnt taxed, or hold backwards views and enforce them at home. And some of them get taken down, and others, well, others seem immune to public pressure. And the public is born into the system, and is too used to it, or too apathetic, to respond. And the good guys in power? What can they do? Push too hard and they get kicked out. But from their enemies perspectives? Well, better to have the good guy in power, but impotent to stop you, than another evil guy that ISNT YOU and wants to remove any threat.
Again, you have a problem: there is already an established force that is shown to be willing and able to take them down: the PCs.

The Duke is now significantly weaker than he was because he expended all that effort on NOTHING.
The Duke is significantly weaker because someone else uncovered and dealt with a problem that it appears he was ignorant of. The proper move is to associate with competence.

(you cant just nationalise everything. It doesnt work.)
Feudalism. Nothing belongs to the nation. It belongs to the Crown. The nobility are the government. In other words, these businesses were already "nationalized."

Theres now a bunch of people out of work, and a bunch of slaves who now need gainful employment, and maybe the PCs didnt get all the slave drivers and necromancers.
The Duke has a force already available to track down the necromancers (i.e. the people who already prove successful the first time). The businesses can be transferred to someone who isn't the son of a traitor.

Meanwhile, Jr comes back.
He's the son of a traitor now. No longer noble.

Duke and court see an opportunity to install Jr as an ally make a lot of enemies
Fixed that for you.

The point is, there is SOME logic behind this
Even the dumbest ploys have SOME logic to them. Doesn't stop them from being dumb ploys.

Your defense is that the nobility aren't corrupt, just very stupid. Both are capital offenses at the top, btw.

I don't really recall "Knowing everything happening to my father or his estates" being considered a heir's job in Medieval times.
What do you think their education was for? To be shipbuilders?

[Albions_Angel]

Yes, the PCs took him down. As a BLUNT TOOL. They just created a power vacuum and screwed a bunch of workers and left a gaping hole in the economy.

And if the duke was paying 100 Million GP to 100 high ranking spys to infiltrate 1 large org, he cant simply use those 100 to infiltrate the new smaller orgs. For a start, that money is gone now, he already spent it on the operation. Second, infiltrating smaller organisations is MUCH HARDER.

I never said the NOBLES were stupid, nor that they wernt corrupt. We KNOW the nobles are corrupt.

And the duke already HAS a bunch of enemies.

In a Machiavellian game of politics, PCs arnt sharp tools to cut out rotting flesh. They are bulls in china shops. The PCs wont hang around to wait on 3 years of intel. You dont hire PCs to take out a linch pin this well connected. You point them at something you dont have the time or resources for, that wont cause massive knock on effects if its eliminated, and you let them go.

They kill dragons that decide sitting on their hoards isnt as fun as burning farmers. They close breaches to planes filled with Formian hives looking to eradicate the local population. And yes, sometimes you aim them at necromancer cults, BUT NOT WHEN THE CULT LEADER ALSO HANDLES YOUR FOREIGN TRADE. For that, you use subtler mechanics.

I mean come on! There are examples from Medieval Europe of kings being plotted against, imprisoning the conspirators and THEN LETTING MOST OF THEM GO! Forget their families! You want a named example? Sharington was a trusted advisor of Henry VIII. He was given Lacock Manor house after the Reformation. He then plotted with a couple of other lords to take out another lord, and good friend to the king. He then planned to take out the king himself. He failed and was locked in the Tower of London. He argued well in court and was freed. Everyone knew he did it. But he was more valuable as a functional member of the nobility than dead. Henry beheaded someone else, everyone forgot. The Sharingtons married into the Talbots, who married into the Foxes and 300 years later, Henry Fox-Talbot invented photography while STILL LIVING IN THE POWERFUL ESTATE OF LACOCK!

Not to mention, we are all putting our MODERN views into this. Slavery is illegal in this world, sure. But just how illegal is it? Just how immoral? "Im going to erase your family" illegal or "You were doing 60" on your donkey in a 30" zone" illegal?

Not to mention, all this is moot if the Duke is almost a prisoner. You didnt come near my "Well, better to have the good guy in power, but impotent to stop you, than another evil guy that ISNT YOU and wants to remove any threat." comment. Ever read discworld? The Patrician is exactly that. Well, maybe not impotent. But the "bad guys" have stopped trying to bump him off because its better to have him in power than any one of your rivals. Not because its hard to do (which it is, incidentally).

[hamishspence]

A parallel might be to Harry Potter. Lucius being "a traitor to Wizarding Britain" (for being an open Death Eater) and being thrown in Azkaban, does not result in Malfoy Manor being confiscated from Draco, or from Lucius's wife.

Similarly, Barty Crouch Junior being identified as a Death Eater and thrown in Azkaban, does not result in his father being impoverished. Especially since his father was the one passing sentence on him.


"One traitor means the whole family have all their wealth confiscated" isn't always a thing.

[Deophaun]

Yes, the PCs took him down. As a BLUNT TOOL. They just created a power vacuum and screwed a bunch of workers and left a gaping hole in the economy.
This is not true. Stop saying this. The solution to this has been presented a half dozen times already.


I never said the NOBLES were stupid,
Your excuses for them is that they are doing stupid things. So yes, you are saying that they are stupid.


And if the duke was paying 100 Million GP to 100 high ranking spys to infiltrate 1 large org, he cant simply use those 100 to infiltrate the new smaller orgs. For a start, that money is gone now, he already spent it on the operation. Second, infiltrating smaller organisations is MUCH HARDER.

100 million? And we're fretting about the adventurers taking 20k. As I said, your defenses are all "maybe they were doing this incredibly dumb thing and so we should have pity on them."


We KNOW the nobles are corrupt.
The OP doesn't seem to think they are. Didn't you hear? The King's a Paladin!


And the duke already HAS a bunch of enemies.
So what's a few dozen more, right?


In a Machiavellian game of politics, PCs arnt sharp tools to cut out rotting flesh. They are bulls in china shops. The PCs wont hang around to wait on 3 years of intel. You dont hire PCs to take out a linch pin this well connected. You point them at something you dont have the time or resources for, that wont cause massive knock on effects if its eliminated, and you let them go.
Here's the problem that you are missing: The bulls have already hit the china shop. The effects are knocking. If you're still at the plotting stage, you're done.


They kill dragons that decide sitting on their hoards isnt as fun as burning farmers. They close breaches to planes filled with Formian hives looking to eradicate the local population. And yes, sometimes you aim them at necromancer cults, BUT NOT WHEN THE CULT LEADER ALSO HANDLES YOUR FOREIGN TRADE. For that, you use subtler mechanics.
They're already aimed at the necromancer cults. Your subtler mechanics better be ready to bear fruit. Otherwise, get on the bull and hope you put enough ranks into Ride.


I mean come on! There are examples from Medieval Europe of kings being plotted against, imprisoning the conspirators and THEN LETTING MOST OF THEM GO! Forget their families! You want a named example? Sharington was a trusted advisor of Henry VIII. He was given Lacock Manor house after the Reformation. He then plotted with a couple of other lords to take out another lord, and good friend to the king. He then planned to take out the king himself. He failed and was locked in the Tower of London. He argued well in court and was freed. Everyone knew he did it. But he was more valuable as a functional member of the nobility than dead.

This is the part you keep missing with the heir. I've already stated that if the heir has done something to make himself valuable to the Crown in his own stead, there may be reasons for keeping him around. But what can the heir bring to the table? The love of the people he hasn't been around? A talent for removing himself from situations that require his attention? Oh, the gratitude of the 23rd in line!

The heir has nothing, so this entire argument doesn't hold.

Not to mention, we are all putting our MODERN views into this.
Speak for yourself.

Slavery is illegal in this world, sure. But just how illegal is it?
I haven't been talking about slavery. I've been talking about treason.

Not to mention, all this is moot if the Duke is almost a prisoner. You didnt come near my "Well, better to have the good guy in power, but impotent to stop you, than another evil guy that ISNT YOU and wants to remove any threat." comment.
Because your comment isn't a defense of anything.

Do the PCs know that there is something worse than the Duke? No. We don't even know. And the OP asked what our characters would likely do in that situation, and my answer is that I would treat all nobility as corrupt and bide my time to deliver the judgement that the nobles wouldn't.

Furthermore, once again this is the Duke acting stupid, only doing so because he is protected by circumstance no matter what he does. Unfortunately, he's now being stupid regarding a force that is either ignorant of or has no interest in the delicate balance of power that keeps him breathing.

At the top, being stupid is a capital offense.

[Peat]

A parallel might be to Harry Potter. Lucius being "a traitor to Wizarding Britain" (for being an open Death Eater) and being thrown in Azkaban, does not result in Malfoy Manor being confiscated from Draco, or from Lucius's wife.

Similarly, Barty Crouch Junior being identified as a Death Eater and thrown in Azkaban, does not result in his father being impoverished. Especially since his father was the one passing sentence on him.


"One traitor means the whole family have all their wealth confiscated" isn't always a thing.

To back up the italicised point:

Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick, died while rebelling against King Edward IV in 1470. His lands went to his daughters and his youngest daughter, Anne, was permitted to marry Edward's brother Richard in 1472.

John the Marshal was bit of the rebellion against Stephen I. Not only did Stephen not kill John's son, a hostage, but John was permitting to continue holding his lands (save for a couple of destroyed castles) and his son went on to become a legend.

In 1095, Robert de Mowbray and William of Eu led a rebellion against William II. He stripped de Mowbray of his estates and blinded & castrated Eu, but Mowbray was succeeded by his brother and Eu by his son.

I could probably do this all day, although its not very relevant.



What do you think their education was for? To be shipbuilders?

Training to be rulers =/= training to know everything about their father and family's estates. When they are being fostered in a distant household, they are not expected to keep constant tabs on their family and family lands.

[Calthropstu]

Emphasis on the "early." And there's a further problem: these rabble rousers can easily be lead by the very people who just took down another noble. Maybe not so easy.

Again, you have a problem: there is already an established force that is shown to be willing and able to take them down: the PCs.

The Duke is significantly weaker because someone else uncovered and dealt with a problem that it appears he was ignorant of. The proper move is to associate with competence.

Feudalism. Nothing belongs to the nation. It belongs to the Crown. The nobility are the government. In other words, these businesses were already "nationalized."

The Duke has a force already available to track down the necromancers (i.e. the people who already prove successful the first time). The businesses can be transferred to someone who isn't the son of a traitor.

He's the son of a traitor now. No longer noble.

Fixed that for you.

Even the dumbest ploys have SOME logic to them. Doesn't stop them from being dumb ploys.

Your defense is that the nobility aren't corrupt, just very stupid. Both are capital offenses at the top, btw.

What do you think their education was for? To be shipbuilders?

Really?

Ok, I'd like to see you do better. I already said the reason he hasn't been disinherited. 1: he was cleared of wrong doing and 2: they fear fallout. With some mysterious cabal actung to destabilize them, the LAST thing they need right now is an international power struggle.

I have built a campagn world from the the ground up. I'd really appreciate it if you didn't get insulting.

[Deophaun]

Really?

Ok, I'd like to see you do better.
Easy. Going with whatever you imagine to be the political situation:

Whelp whines to Duke. Duke tells him to shut his mouth, lends him 15k to fix the finances. Then shows up with the adventurers, congratulates them on a job well done, and gives them 5k as a down payment to go track down the rest of the slave ring/necromancers.

There's no trying of the PCs. No making them distrust the nobility. No making them resent the heir. Duke co-opts the PCs and ends up doing what he was going to do anyway.


I already said the reason he hasn't been disinherited. 1: he was cleared of wrong doing and 2: they fear fallout.
I already stated I won't believe (1) and I won't care about (2).

With some mysterious cabal actung to destabilize them, the LAST thing they need right now is an international power struggle.
So now they get an external one. I'm gunning for them now.


I have built a campagn world from the the ground up.
No you haven't, or you wouldn't have had to come up with the law after the fact.


I'd really appreciate it if you didn't get insulting.
If I was insulting them I'd be arguing that the nobles were all stupid. Instead, I'm arguing that they're corrupt and need to be brought down. It's the people telling me that they aren't corrupt who are saying that they're stupid. Tell them not to be insulting.

[daremetoidareyo]

Calthrop, I like the being sued bit. It has the potential to be fun. Especially if there is a chance at getting off Scot free. It switched the game into a role play/complex skill checks half adventure.

[Calthropstu]

Calthrop, I like the being sued bit. It has the potential to be fun. Especially if there is a chance at getting off Scot free. It switched the game into a role play/complex skill checks half adventure.

Yeah, my pcs were actually wanting more rp. The suing was a spur of the moment decision, but I feel I've done a decent job with it. I hope they enjoy it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

In a Machiavellian game of politics, PCs arnt sharp tools to cut out rotting flesh. They are bulls in china shops. The PCs wont hang around to wait on 3 years of intel. You dont hire PCs to take out a linch pin this well connected. You point them at something you dont have the time or resources for, that wont cause massive knock on effects if its eliminated, and you let them go.
This is how I see adventurers, too. Adventurers are like radiation therapy. It damages lots of things, but usually the necromancer cults a bit more than everything else (and more so if you can aim them, but that's not as easy as it sounds).


As another fictional reference to not killing/putting up with traitors (or just not-great allies), the Wheel of Time series is full of it.

[Bronk]

Yeah, my pcs were actually wanting more rp. The suing was a spur of the moment decision, but I feel I've done a decent job with it. I hope they enjoy it.

I hope so too! You've put a lot of thought into it.

Another thought about what they might do (back to the OP)... They might summon or attract the attention of an inevitable, probably a Kolyarut, and let it butt into the situation. That would be great for you as a potential off switch, since you (with your infinite DM wisdom) get to decide who it tries to bring to justice after its investigation.

[Calthropstu]

This is how I see adventurers, too. Adventurers are like radiation therapy. It damages lots of things, but usually the necromancer cults a bit more than everything else (and more so if you can aim them, but that's not as easy as it sounds).


As another fictional reference to not killing/putting up with traitors (or just not-great allies), the Wheel of Time series is full of it.

Which is exactly what the Duke intends. He wants "The guys who killed a noble" out doing things rather than hanging around. Their very presence could cause problems.

[Peat]

Which is exactly what the Duke intends. He wants "The guys who killed a noble" out doing things rather than hanging around. Their very presence could cause problems.

Idle tangential question - but since in your setting a lot of adventurers are presumably young nobles, how is this going to affect your PCs standings among other adventurers?

[Vertharrad]

Which is exactly what the Duke intends. He wants "The guys who killed a noble" out doing things rather than hanging around. Their very presence could cause problems.

Actually having DnD Courtroom would've had them "hanging around". Where you started the beginning of what could've been a very messy situation, ExLibrisMortis expedited the situation and avoided it at the same time. You incurred more costs involving the courts while he had the duke paladin managing resources masterfully. You might want to learn from it.

[Calthropstu]

Actually having DnD Courtroom would've had them "hanging around". Where you started the beginning of what could've been a very messy situation, ExLibrisMortis expedited the situation and avoided it at the same time. You incurred more costs involving the courts while he had the duke paladin managing resources masterfully. You might want to learn from it.

Do you mean Deophaun? Libris Mortis just posted a list of house rules.

Deophaun listed a bunch of bs that basically amounted to the Duke having God level insight combined with "don't have court at all" which defeats the ENTIRE PURPOSE of this exercise, and robs both me and my pcs of the experience.

Yeah, no thanks. Any advice consisting of "don't have court at all" will be flat rejected with what amounts to "thanks but no thanks."

[Elricaltovilla]

Calthropstu, do you even know for 100% certainty that your players want to go to court? That's the first question I'd be asking myself when considering this.

Other than that, I just don't see your idea for why the PCs are getting sued making a lot of sense. That seems to be true for a lot of other forumites as well. If you are dead set on the characters playing out an episode of Law & Order, then you need to examine the laws that are being used to sue them and whether or not they actually make sense given the kingdom that you've designed.

Right now, it doesn't make sense because you purport to have an LG/NG kingdom that abhors slavery and utilizes adventurers as special forces suing its own employees for acting in their line of duty instead of expending its resources dealing with the absolutely massive treason/world ending necromancy plot that the kingdom's special forces discovered to be taking place right inside their own borders.

The PCs, in many cultures, couldn't even be sued directly. They were operating under the employ of someone else, and by employing the PCs, that person is the one who incurs responsibility for their actions, not the PCs.

The laws of your kingdom do not match well with the description of the kingdom as you've provided. More than that, the actions of the NPCs do not match with the (limited) description of them that you've provided us (particularly the Duke), nor the resources they are purported to have available to them.

In short, if you are dead set on having high fantasy courtroom drama, I think it would be in your best interest to reevaluate your kingdom and its laws.

[daremetoidareyo]

Calthropstu, do you even know for 100% certainty that your players want to go to court? That's the first question I'd be asking myself when considering this.

Other than that, I just don't see your idea for why the PCs are getting sued making a lot of sense. That seems to be true for a lot of other forumites as well. If you are dead set on the characters playing out an episode of Law & Order, then you need to examine the laws that are being used to sue them and whether or not they actually make sense given the kingdom that you've designed.

Right now, it doesn't make sense because you purport to have an LG/NG kingdom that abhors slavery and utilizes adventurers as special forces suing its own employees for acting in their line of duty instead of expending its resources dealing with the absolutely massive treason/world ending necromancy plot that the kingdom's special forces discovered to be taking place right inside their own borders.

The PCs, in many cultures, couldn't even be sued directly. They were operating under the employ of someone else, and by employing the PCs, that person is the one who incurs responsibility for their actions, not the PCs.

The laws of your kingdom do not match well with the description of the kingdom as you've provided. More than that, the actions of the NPCs do not match with the (limited) description of them that you've provided us (particularly the Duke), nor the resources they are purported to have available to them.

In short, if you are dead set on having high fantasy courtroom drama, I think it would be in your best interest to reevaluate your kingdom and its laws.

Why can't the pcs be sued? Seems legit enough a grievance to necessitate an arbitrator.

[hamishspence]

you purport to have an LG/NG kingdom that abhors slavery and utilizes adventurers as special forces suing its own employees for acting in their line of duty instead of expending its resources dealing with the absolutely massive treason/world ending necromancy plot that the kingdom's special forces discovered to be taking place right inside their own borders.

"Fighting the villain" was in the line of duty. "Looting their mansion" wasn't.



Because the party destroyed a horrendous plot, they are entitled to compensation. However, by taking everything in the mansion without consulting authorities they are guilty of robbery.

[Blu]

"Fighting the villain" was in the line of duty. "Looting their mansion" wasn't.
According to the laws of the country it acutally is.



Applicable laws:

Adventurers who happen upon illegal activities and disrupt them may take any gear the peroetrators carry and are entitled to the ill-gotten gains of said perpetrators.
Calthropstu may say that the legit gains and ill-gotten were separeted but the point of having a money laundry front is exactly to not do that. Also the noble knew that what he was doing were some of the biggest crimes there is and he wouldn't do it unless it paid off greatly.
Even worse... Pc's were already questioned about it and given an OK.

The point is this sueing plot hook is so full of holes he is leaking everywhere and other posters already posted other problems with it. Deophaun presented quite a lot of good arguments. Calthropstu disregarding them like that is just being smug about it.

You can actually present more RP oppurtunities without going to this plot to be honest. And even worse this plot may make the party resent the Duke and heir wich i believe is something you didn't want.

[Elricaltovilla]

Why can't the pcs be sued? Seems legit enough a grievance to necessitate an arbitrator.

Because they were acting under someone else's authority. So it's the authority they we're working for that is liable for their actions. You don't sue the janitor for not putting up a wet floor sign, you sue the company he works for.

[daremetoidareyo]

Because they were acting under someone else's authority. So it's the authority they we're working for that is liable for their actions. You don't sue the janitor for not putting up a wet floor sign, you sue the company he works for.

If that janitor is an independent contractor, you sue him and the company he works for. If that janitor cleans up $15,000 worth of goods and keeps them for his own use, it's reasonable that most of the fault is applied to him unless he has adequate justification. Court proceedings can determine the adequacy of any justifications for that behavior

[Elricaltovilla]

If that janitor is an independent contractor, you sue him and the company he works for. If that janitor cleans up $15,000 worth of goods and keeps them for his own use, it's reasonable that most of the fault is applied to him unless he has adequate justification. Court proceedings can determine the adequacy of any justifications for that behavior

Not if part of the Janitor's pay comes from siezing illegal goods, and you were running a money laundering scheme out of the very building the janitor was cleaning. Ignoring the politics of it, civil asset forfeiture is a thing in our world and apparently in calthroptsu's given the above quoted law.

You don't sue the police officer who took your money when it's seized, the prosecutor sues your money and it's up to you to prove that money didn't come from criminal enterprise.

Going to be real hard to make that argument when the argument for your innocence with regards to high treason is that you had no idea anything was going on. And the fact that all these businesses would fail without influx of cash from the Earl's tainted coffers is a pretty strong indicator that they were serving as fronts for money laundering.

[hamishspence]

According to the laws of the country it acutally is.


The government has the legal power to take all a traitor's goods (which, in this case, they aren't using). The PCs, going by what Calthropstu's been saying, don't - they exceeded their authority.

[daremetoidareyo]

The government has the legal power to take all a traitor's goods (which, in this case, they aren't using). The PCs, going by what Calthropstu's been saying, don't - they exceeded their authority.

And if they didn't, the court will determine that.

[hamishspence]

Specifically:


Applicable laws:
Adventuring in a dungeon permits said adventurers to take, as compensation, any non-religious valuables found within.

Adventurers who happen upon illegal activities and disrupt them may take any gear the peroetrators carry and are entitled to the ill-gotten gains of said perpetrators.

The lair where the pcs found the slaves certainly qualified as a dungeon. The Mansion, however, did not.

The contention is that some of what the pcs took were not ill gotten and gained through the Earl's legitimate ventures.

[zlefin]

The government has the legal power to take all a traitor's goods (which, in this case, they aren't using). The PCs, going by what Calthropstu's been saying, don't - they exceeded their authority.
all these points have already been addressed and countered in the thread; you're just relitigating points that are already well trodden. If you want to, go ahead; just know that it's all a rehash.

[hamishspence]

all these points have already been addressed and countered in the thread.

How were they "countered"? Where did Calthropstu concede that

"the laws of the country say that looting the mansion is In The Line Of Duty"?

[zlefin]

How were they "countered"? Where did Calthropstu concede that

"the laws of the country say that looting the mansion is In The Line Of Duty"?

calth doesn't have to concede it for it to be demonstrably true. Often people go ahead with their plans even if they're proven wrong. and it's the internet, people very rarely concede they were wrong no matter how definitive the proof.
If you want to know where, go rereard the thread, it's all there. You can choose to ignore the counters as well. I was simply warning you that you're relitigating points that were already argued in thread, so you're not adding anything or helping anyone, you're just rehashing old material. But like I say, if you want to relitigate anyways, go ahead.

[hamishspence]

go rereard the thread, it's all there.
I did. None of the "counters" were especially convincing. The "rightful owner" of everything in the mansion, isn't the PCs. It might be The Government. It might be The Kid. But it's not them.

The PCs are applying "dungeon rules" in towns, when it's not called for.

[zlefin]

I did. None of the "counters" were especially convincing. The "rightful owner" of everything in the mansion, isn't the PCs. It might be The Government. It might be The Kid. But it's not them.

The PCs are applying "dungeon rules" in towns, when it's not called for.

well, then you missed many of the actually important arguments, only to focus on the wrong ones; and I'm not goin to point to whcih ones because as i've been VERY repeatedly trying to say, you're rehashing old ground and I don't want to relitigate stuff that's already been covered thoroughly, just so you can see it when ti's already there.

[Calthropstu]

And if they didn't, the court will determine that.

Exactly. And I see people's arguments which is why I shifted from "asset forfeiture" to "reduction in reward."

But eliminating the courtroom altogether after so many hours put into it is something I am extremely loathe to do. I talked with a couple of my players and asked them what they thought about doing a courtroom thing and they seem all for it.

And the amount of work I've put in will make this a smashing success.

I have written up 7 different defense lawyers they can hire, drawn up the courtroom, made stats for the lawyer of the boy, added stats for the duke, the marquis and the 2 viscounts, created a system for running the courtroom, created the arguments the boy's lawyer will use, and about 100 other details.

I also drew up stuff for after the trial. The trial itself looks to be set to take 2 hours of game time.

[Calthropstu]

calth doesn't have to concede it for it to be demonstrably true. Often people go ahead with their plans even if they're proven wrong. and it's the internet, people very rarely concede they were wrong no matter how definitive the proof.
If you want to know where, go rereard the thread, it's all there. You can choose to ignore the counters as well. I was simply warning you that you're relitigating points that were already argued in thread, so you're not adding anything or helping anyone, you're just rehashing old material. But like I say, if you want to relitigate anyways, go ahead.

The equipment the Earl had: legal to take. The 15k gold in a chest was debateable. The Marquis gave them the benefit of the doubt and ruled in their favor.

The kid is bringing documented evidence namely copies of the bookkeeping from said legal enterprises as well as the books that were kept by his father.

Add to that the books already turned over to the Marquis in the original incestigation, and the Duke will have a complete view of both the legal and illegal money made by the late Earl. Information that the Marquis didn't have.

The goal of the boy is simple: get the money to prevent 'his' businesses from going belly up.
The goal of the PCs can be anything they want.
The goals of the Duke are:
Keep the peace.
Get the PCs bsck out and killing bad guys.
Resolve the issue with the least damage and most agreeable manner possible.


The game is tonight. It's far too late to write something else. I will go with what I've got.

[Bronk]

The kid is bringing documented evidence namely copies of the bookkeeping from said legal enterprises as well as the books that were kept by his father.

Add to that the books already turned over to the Marquis in the original incestigation, and the Duke will have a complete view of both the legal and illegal money made by the late Earl. Information that the Marquis didn't have.

The PCs might try to find out if the records have been doctored...



The game is tonight. It's far too late to write something else. I will go with what I've got.

Cool! Have fun! I hope you let us know how it goes.

[Elricaltovilla]

Cool! Have fun! I hope you let us know how it goes.

Agreed, I will be very disappointed if I don't get to hear how the session goes.

[Calthropstu]

Agreed, I will be very disappointed if I don't get to hear how the session goes.

Mwahahaha.

[zlefin]

gl calth, we've certainly prepared you for a lot of possibilities.

[Calthropstu]

It went very well.

I am also very tired.

Will give details later.

[Kyrell1978]

It went very well.

I am also very tired.

Will give details later.

Good deal. It sounded like a lot of fun.

[Calthropstu]

So I started the last session where the first ended. I gave the pcs a handout that basically was the info that was handed to the characters.

The first thing they did was go out drinking. They had 2 weeks after all. The rogue/barbarian wanted to kill the kid but that was quickly nixed by the rest.

So then he wanted to kill the lawyer. Nixed by the fighter and cleric but not entirely dismissed by the wizard.

Then they really got to discussing strategy. (No, no killing things. Stop drawing the axe)

They eventually decided to contact a lawyer and I had no problem directing them to the ones I had drawn up. They eventually settled on a mid priced lawyer.

According to his writeup (he was LN) his first strategy was an attempt to discredit the boy and get him disinherited. Failing that, he would try to declare that all of the stuff in the room could be considered equipment as it was in use in the room where the final battle took place.

So he set the pcs on a quest to find evidence the boy had been involved in anything illegal.

So they went about gathering information. Not a time for the cleric to be rolling 1s. But the rogue was nonplussed. If you can't find something, simply make it. So he goes and pays some people to make **** up.

The lawyer, now confident in victory says "sure that will be more than enough." Half a week before the trial the lawyer comes to confirm everything and mentions the zone of truth they will be under during the trial and the rogue spills the beans.

The lawyer drops them then and there. So they hire a different one and decide to basically bench the rogue. This lawyer is actually better than the last, but has very little time for prep.

His strategy is layered.
1: attempt to declare that the boy is unfit to represent the estate and demand the mother come in an attempt to delay proceedings.
2: failing that attempt to have the viscount who originally hired the pcs be responsible for at least some of it. Or possibly the Marquis due to the original clearing and allowing the money to be spent which made it into a form now difficult, and damaging, to liquidate.
3: Try to get extra compensation due to the fact the pcs were hired to merely find a kidnap victim, not break up a slave trade organization, uncover a traitor or uncover necromancy at work.
4: If all else failed, attempt to get the Duke to extend a line of credit that the PCs could work off.

He needs a few things, but since his defense relies on established laws it doesn't take long.

So the day f the trial comes and...

I'll post more later, time to go to work.

[hamishspence]

2: failing that attempt to have the viscount who originally hired the pcs be responsible for at least some of it. Or possibly the Marquis due to the original clearing and allowing the money to be spent which made it into a form now difficult, and damaging, to liquidate.

I think it's this, that's the best grounds to work from. "That money was declared legally ours - it's not our fault if he messed up."

[ExLibrisMortis]

Interested in the second part! The multi-layer strategy seems to be a sensible one. I see some influences of this thread in there, as well. Looks like we weren't totally useless :smalltongue:.

[Calthropstu]

Interested in the second part! The multi-layer strategy seems to be a sensible one. I see some influences of this thread in there, as well. Looks like we weren't totally useless :smalltongue:.

Of course not. I came here for ideas and you guys definitely delivered quite spectacularly. I'm on a short break atm, so no update on the trial itself. But definitely later today.

[PaladinX]

Just popped in to this is amazing! Nice work!

[EldritchWeaver]

Of course not. I came here for ideas and you guys definitely delivered quite spectacularly. I'm on a short break atm, so no update on the trial itself. But definitely later today.

Still waiting for that update.

[Calthropstu]

Still waiting for that update.

Oh damn, I had it typed up into the site and never clicked submit and now the 45 minutes I spent typing it is wasted.

But I will post an abbreviated version.

First, I had the Duke take the court session into a closed session. For the room I had lead lined walls with anti scrying magic and dimensional wards.

The Duke opened with a congratulation to both parties, the PCs for uncovering what they did and the boy on his being named heir apparent and inheriting his Earldom upon qualfying (meaning adventuring).

He then presented a small gift to the boy and announced the 20,000 gp reward from the crown. However, that would be held for after the trial. He then proceeded to allow arguments.

I had each lawyer present their arguments and allowed the pcs to make arguments in their defense as well.

Each presented argument was allowed a counter argument by the opposition.

My PCs actually did fairly well, ccoming up with some of the arguments you guys presented and a couple I had not thought of. But I had prepared well, and since I had made the boy's lawyer and the pcs lawyer both pretty good at their job, it essentially boiled down to how much of the gold was the pc's allowed to take.

However, the fighter and the cleric, after hearing the arguments and the plea that the boy was making surprised me and offered their share of the 20k to the boy regardless of trial outcome.

The wizard grudgingly followed suit, but the rogue/barbarian steadfastly refused. In the end, the pc's were alliwed to keep 3,000 of the 15k which would have meant them getting 7k... But the charitable gesture of the 3 pcs meant the boy getting MORE than the 15k he had originally requested.

There will DEFINITELY be rp rewards for this. I am working on the next session now.

The Duke basically offered them a job, presented the 3 options, they opted to go after the kdnap victims.

[daremetoidareyo]

Oh damn, I had it typed up into the site and never clicked submit and now the 45 minutes I spent typing it is wasted.

But I will post an abbreviated version.

First, I had the Duke take the court session into a closed session. For the room I had lead lined walls with anti scrying magic and dimensional wards.

The Duke opened with a congratulation to both parties, the PCs for uncovering what they did and the boy on his being named heir apparent and inheriting his Earldom upon qualfying (meaning adventuring).

He then presented a small gift to the boy and announced the 20,000 gp reward from the crown. However, that would be held for after the trial. He then proceeded to allow arguments.

I had each lawyer present their arguments and allowed the pcs to make arguments in their defense as well.

Each presented argument was allowed a counter argument by the opposition.

My PCs actually did fairly well, ccoming up with some of the arguments you guys presented and a couple I had not thought of. But I had prepared well, and since I had made the boy's lawyer and the pcs lawyer both pretty good at their job, it essentially boiled down to how much of the gold was the pc's allowed to take.

However, the fighter and the cleric, after hearing the arguments and the plea that the boy was making surprised me and offered their share of the 20k to the boy regardless of trial outcome.

The wizard grudgingly followed suit, but the rogue/barbarian steadfastly refused. In the end, the pc's were alliwed to keep 3,000 of the 15k which would have meant them getting 7k... But the charitable gesture of the 3 pcs meant the boy getting MORE than the 15k he had originally requested.

There will DEFINITELY be rp rewards for this. I am working on the next session now.

The Duke basically offered them a job, presented the 3 options, they opted to go after the kdnap victims.

That's really heartwarming. Thanks for sharing.