Combat Wild Shape and self-healing

[EggKookoo]

Would it be too game-breaking to allow the slots-for-hp sub-feature of Combat Wild Shape to be [slot level]d8 + CON instead of just [slot level]d8?

[nickl_2000]

Don't do it. Honestly moon druids have the most HP of all characters in the game. There is no reason to give them more ( and this is from a guy whose primary character is a moon druid)

[Kadesh]

Would it be too game-breaking to allow the slots-for-hp sub-feature of Combat Wild Shape to be [slot level]d8 + CON instead of just [slot level]d8?

Yes.

Letters

[Lunali]

While I agree that you probably shouldn't do it, if you did I would suggest d8+WIS instead. The druid is using magic to heal, not natural healing.

[EggKookoo]

While I agree that you probably shouldn't do it, if you did I would suggest d8+WIS instead. The druid is using magic to heal, not natural healing.

Thanks, that's a good point. But I think I'll take the advice of the collective and just leave it at d8.

Thanks all!

[sithlordnergal]

Personally, I would go d8+con. That is a good in between, since wisdom will likely be maxed out due to them being a druid, but just a d8 per spell level is not worth the time to heal since it heals so little.

[Lunali]

Personally, I would go d8+con. That is a good in between, since wisdom will likely be maxed out due to them being a druid, but just a d8 per spell level is not worth the time to heal since it heals so little.

Keep in mind the con modifier will be based off their wild shape form.

[sithlordnergal]

Keep in mind the con modifier will be based off their wild shape form.

Ohh, I had not thought of that. Most animals have a pretty good con modifier, though the Elementals have less. Maybe wisdom is the way to go then. It'd make the healing more effective. Usually I've found that it just isn't worth trying to heal the wild shape form because it heals so little.

[EggKookoo]

Ohh, I had not thought of that. Most animals have a pretty good con modifier, though the Elementals have less. Maybe wisdom is the way to go then. It'd make the healing more effective. Usually I've found that it just isn't worth trying to heal the wild shape form because it heals so little.

That was the impetus for my question. Does [slot]d8 seem worth it? I guess the idea is a Moon Druid has less use for spellcasting, but since the Druid gets the benefit of the beast's HP a feature that grants a little healing doesn't seem that valuable. I'd rather it be that sacrificing a spell slot granted some shapechanging-based benefit, like additional uses of Wild Shape or a CR boost or something like that.

[MaxWilson]

That was the impetus for my question. Does [slot]d8 seem worth it?

It's like paladin smiting: terrible from an efficiency standpoint, but useful in a clutch situation where the question is not just "how cheaply can you win?" but "will you survive the next twelve seconds?"

It's not something you want to use all the time, but when you're already in Earth Elemental form (with Sentinel and Prodigy (Athletics)) and you're trying to hold the BBE Dragon grappled for just a little bit longer until your buddies can deal with the Skull Lord... it's not like you have any other way to use your spell slots while wildshaped, and +45 HP from two rounds of Combat Wildshape basically negates one full round of dragon melee attacks + legendary tail swats... so yeah, sometimes it's useful.

But from a pure efficiency standpoint it will never beat Goodberry, let alone Healing Spirit, and it will never be your go-to healing option. Adding Con or Wis mod will not change that.

[EggKookoo]

Adding Con or Wis mod will not change that.

Ok, I wasn't perfectly clear. I was thinking you'd add the mod per slot level. So dump a lv4 slot and it's four applications of 1d8 + CON (or WIS I suppose). That would make a big difference -- basically free hit dice.

But I've been sold on it being fine the way it is. It's not meant to be reliable self-healing but more of an OH CRAP thing. Works for me.

[qube]

That was the impetus for my question. Does [slot]d8 seem worth it? I guess the idea is a Moon Druid has less use for spellcasting, but since the Druid gets the benefit of the beast's HP a feature that grants a little healing doesn't seem that valuable. I'd rather it be that sacrificing a spell slot granted some shapechanging-based benefit, like additional uses of Wild Shape or a CR boost or something like that.
... I'm ... not sure why you feel the moon druid needs a boost.

It's one of the strongest power/versitlity characters outt here.
consider the simple fact that your moon druid can chose at the time of combat itself (a.k.a. same build), to
Go full tank - and with the amount of hp it has, it's quite the sponge
cast call lightning at highest level, and turn into a bird (flying behind the party out of range of the enemy, and shapeshifting doesn't change concentration)

[EggKookoo]

... I'm ... not sure why you feel the moon druid needs a boost.

It's mainly about working out the value of the feature. IF it's kind of a worthless feature, I'm just saying I'd rather see it replaced with something that provides more value. The feature in and of itself doesn't necessarily need a boost. Ideally it would be something fun and distinctive.

My Druid player is only 2nd level and she picked Moon, so we looked at that feature and were wondering about it. It struck me as odd that it didn't have a stat component like some other HP-related things do. Just brought it up here to see what would happen if we gave it one. From what I'm hearing, Moon is potent enough and probably doesn't even need the self-heal as written. I'm not looking to do much homebrew -- me a few years ago would have written up a whole new Druid featureset to be honest -- so I was just looking to find some justification for sticking with RAW. I think I have, and thanks to everyone.

[Kadesh]

It's mainly about working out the value of the feature. IF it's kind of a worthless feature, I'm just saying I'd rather see it replaced with something that provides more value. The feature in and of itself doesn't necessarily need a boost. Ideally it would be something fun and distinctive.

My Druid player is only 2nd level and she picked Moon, so we looked at that feature and were wondering about it. It struck me as odd that it didn't have a stat component like some other HP-related things do. Just brought it up here to see what would happen if we gave it one. From what I'm hearing, Moon is potent enough and probably doesn't even need the self-heal as written. I'm not looking to do much homebrew -- me a few years ago would have written up a whole new Druid featureset to be honest -- so I was just looking to find some justification for sticking with RAW. I think I have, and thanks to everyone.

It's not a worthless feature, though. If you want to be a Druid, and you want to stay for longer in your Wild Shape form, you're going to need healing. You can't heal yourself through spellcasting, so you're reliant on others to heal you. Either you multiclass into something that allows you to heal/gain Temp HP without casting spells, or you're reliant on your Team Mates, or you can burn the spell slots you aren't currently using to keep yourself alive in the animal shape - largely, the reason why you chose to be a Moon Druid in the first place is as a result of getting better animal forms - now you get a chance to stay in them for longer.

[sithlordnergal]

It's not a worthless feature, though. If you want to be a Druid, and you want to stay for longer in your Wild Shape form, you're going to need healing. You can't heal yourself through spellcasting, so you're reliant on others to heal you. Either you multiclass into something that allows you to heal/gain Temp HP without casting spells, or you're reliant on your Team Mates, or you can burn the spell slots you aren't currently using to keep yourself alive in the animal shape - largely, the reason why you chose to be a Moon Druid in the first place is as a result of getting better animal forms - now you get a chance to stay in them for longer.

But it kind of is a worthless feature without some tweaking. I have a Moon Druid that has gone from level 1 to level 12, and I was the party's front line and healer. I have used that ability a grand total of zero times because it does such lackluster healing. It is literally a waste of a spell slot. You're better off turning into a new animal form or having your team mates heal you. But, if like me, you're the only member that can heal in the party...then it just isn't worth it.

[MaxWilson]

But it kind of is a worthless feature without some tweaking. I have a Moon Druid that has gone from level 1 to level 12, and I was the party's front line and healer. I have used that ability a grand total of zero times because it does such lackluster healing. It is literally a waste of a spell slot. You're better off turning into a new animal form or having your team mates heal you. But, if like me, you're the only member that can heal in the party...then it just isn't worth it.

Insurance isn't worthless even if it goes unused. Redundant, maybe, but not worthless.

[Kadesh]

But it kind of is a worthless feature without some tweaking. I have a Moon Druid that has gone from level 1 to level 12, and I was the party's front line and healer. I have used that ability a grand total of zero times because it does such lackluster healing. It is literally a waste of a spell slot. You're better off turning into a new animal form or having your team mates heal you. But, if like me, you're the only member that can heal in the party...then it just isn't worth it.

What happens if you're then not able to use your Wild Shape Resource? When I've druided, I've often acted as a Scout using my Wild Shape, which means I only have 1 Combat Form, or even none - but then I've been able to "heal more" by preventing the enemy from ambushing us.

Also, if you're the only healer in your party, and you're playing a Moon Druid, then sure, the circumstances requiring you to heal others (and use your Wild Shapes as Lockdown/Temp HP Buffers) outweigh your use of keeping yourself in your Combat Wild Shape. But that's making the best of the situation.

Worthless is a strong word to use as well, when its use is by healing YOURSELF, and if you want to stay in your form.

[MaxWilson]

Note also BTW that the Bladesinger's Song of Defense prevents approximately as much damage as Combat Wildshape heals: 5 HP per level of the spell expended (vs. 4.5/level for the druid). It's generally considered a worthwhile feature despite Absorb Elements being far more efficient against dragon breath/etc.

[qube]

I have used that ability a grand total of zero times because it does such lackluster healing. It is literally a waste of a spell slot. You're better off turning into a new animal form or having your team mates heal you.
(1) as it's a bonus action, it should be compared to healing word. Compared to Xd4+stat, I'm quite hesitant to call Xd8 lackluster or a waste of spell slot.

(2) D&D 5e is balanced around 8 encounters with 3 short rests between 'm. The fact you by default assume you've got 2 wildshapes every combat, leeds me to believe your DM was quite leniant with the amount of short rests you got.
Not to mention, as Kadesh, pointed out, what happens if you use it out of combat as well.
And - as not mentioned before - when you 'shape in an elemental it uses up both charges at once.

(3) considering you were also the party healer aside from tank, combined with the fact you can't be both at the same time (no spellcasting while 'shaped) - your experience is not that of a typical moon druid.

[Dr. Cliché]

(1) as it's a bonus action, it should be compared to healing word. Compared to Xd4+stat, I'm quite hesitant to call Xd8 lackluster or a waste of spell slot.

Except that Healing Word:

- Has a higher minimum.

- Works on allies (not only on yourself and even then only you're in a different form).

- Is used to stabilise a dying character.

The last one is the most important because Healing Word isn't used to boost someone's hp mid-fight. It's used when they're already down to both stabilise them and bring them back to consciousness. You'll note that Moon Druid's godawful self healing ability can do none of these things.

You can't even use it to get yourself back into Wild Shape after being knocked out of it.

It's just a really crap ability and giving it a slight buff would cause absolutely no issue other than maybe making it a viable choice for a Moon Druid to use.

[Kadesh]

Except that Healing Word:

- Has a higher minimum.

- Works on allies (not only on yourself and even then only you're in a different form).

- Is used to stabilise a dying character.

The last one is the most important because Healing Word isn't used to boost someone's hp mid-fight. It's used when they're already down to both stabilise them and bring them back to consciousness. You'll note that Moon Druid's godawful self healing ability can do none of these things.

You can't even use it to get yourself back into Wild Shape after being knocked out of it.

It's just a really crap ability and giving it a slight buff would cause absolutely no issue other than maybe making it a viable choice for a Moon Druid to use.

And you can't use it while Wild Shaped, completely invalidating every single one of your points.

[Dr. Cliché]

And you can't use it while Wild Shaped, completely invalidating every single one of your points.

You realise that's not an argument, right?

[EggKookoo]

You can't even use it to get yourself back into Wild Shape after being knocked out of it.

That would be an interesting replacement feature, though.

[Kadesh]

You realise that's not an argument, right?
What part of the 'it heals you in wild shape as a bonus action' is not an argument?

[MaxWilson]

- Is used to stabilise a dying character.

So, that makes Combat Wildshape comparable to Healing Word at tables with variant rules for reaching 0 HP. (Some tables use negative HP, others just inflict fatigue on you every time you hit zero.)

At such tables, Healing Word is kind of niche but not completely redundant.

[dejarnjc]

So, that makes Combat Wildshape comparable to Healing Word at tables with variant rules for reaching 0 HP. (Some tables use negative HP, others just inflict fatigue on you every time you hit zero.)

At such tables, Healing Word is kind of niche but not completely redundant.

Even at those tables, healing word shouldn't be niche or redundant. It's not a powerful spell just because you can play pop-up-PCs with it. It also saves allies from certain death or potentially allows them an extra turn in combat (depending on initiative) in which to escape or kill the enemy or whatever.

[MaxWilson]

Even at those tables, healing word shouldn't be niche or redundant. It's not a powerful spell just because you can play pop-up-PCs with it. It also saves allies from certain death or potentially allows them an extra turn in combat (depending on initiative) in which to escape or kill the enemy or whatever.

Except that it doesn't, at those tables. If you've got 100 HP and are bleeding out at the rate of 20 HP per failed death save (20%), then in order for Healing Word to save you from "certain death", you need to be at a mere -4ish HP initially so you can get back on your feet and keep fighting, or it needs to save you from certain death by stabilizing you at e.g. -94 HP right before a death save you would have failed, while your allies win the combat which they would have lost had someone instead taken a single action to stabilize you with a healer's kit/spare the dying/Cure Wounds/etc. That's pretty niche, comparable to Combat Wildshape.