Revisiting a classic discussion: That Damn Crab

[Zaq]

Okay, I know that it's not exactly new material to talk about That Damn Crab (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a), but Thurbane's awesome "Monster Manual 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?567712-Monster-Manual-VI-Online-Monsters)" thread reminded me that it existed, and I feel like talking about it again.

If you're unfamiliar with That Damn Crab, it's technically called the "Monstrous Crab" and is found at the link above. (There was another "Monstrous Crab" printed in Stormwrack with somewhat saner numbers, but that's less interesting, so let's talk about the forum-canonical TDC at the link, 'kay? 'Kay.) It's a classic example of something that is horrifyingly under-CR'd: it's allegedly CR 3, but it's got a whopping 66 HP, does an average of 13.5 damage per attack or per successful grapple/constrict attempt, has a nearly unbeatable (by a level 3 PC) +19 to grapple checks with Improved Grab, is immune to mind-affecting stuff, is faster than almost every level 3 PC that hasn't built specifically for land speed, is Large with reach, has beefy defenses in general, and has listed tactics that explicitly say that it's going to just going to grab two people and drag them underwater where they'll inevitably drown (assuming that they aren't just snapped in two by those ridiculously high-damage constrict rolls long before they fail their suffocation checks). Fighting one at level 3 is almost always going to result in, shall we say, a really bad time. It's mostly just got numbers, but the numbers it has are way beyond what the vast majority of level 3 PCs can handle.

So let's talk about that a bit! Let's say that you're a level 3 PC in a reasonably average group. You're going to be fairly optimized, but we'll assume mostly baseline/token/middling optimization on the part of your partymates. You're level 3. You're aware that you're going to be fighting about 4 encounters over the next day, and at least one of those 4 encounters (you don't know which one, and it could be more than one!) is going to involve That Damn Crab. You aren't sure ahead of time what kind of environment you'll be fighting TDC in—it might be blocking your path in a dungeon, or it might be in a more open beach-like environment, or it might be inappropriately found in a totally random environment because of random encounter tables, or something else entirely. What do you want your build to look like to give yourself (and your party!) something resembling a chance of success, bearing in mind that it's not the only thing you'll be fighting in the day and that you may even need to fight something else at the same time?

To make things difficult, I'm going to say that beating the Crab "honestly" (actually slugging it out against the numbers) is worth way, way more points than just finding a way past it or around it (yes, yes, Silent Images of walls/boxes/whatever work very nicely against mindless critters, but we've all heard that argument before and I want to see what else we can come up with). Simply staying out of TDC's reach and sniping it to death is worth, like, half credit (something something Warlock with Spider Climb, but you'd better hope that the environment favors you there)—that's honestly the kind of tactics that's most likely to result in anything other than a pile of (okay, at least two) dead PCs, but I want to see what other creative and interesting optimization we can throw at the problem. You can spec as a specific "crab-killer" if you really feel like it, but try to keep in mind that you'll probably eventually be fighting non-crustacean enemies as well, so let's not get too hyperspecialized (unless that's really funny).

3.5 only, if you please. Show me your crab-killers!

[Pleh]

Ok. TDC has a Cha dump stat, but immunity to mind affecting.

I was exploring a few ways to deal Cha damage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?363730-3-5-Charisma-Damage) and found AMFV's post about Maiming Strike from Exemplars of Evil.

So we must have an Evil Rogue level 3 and the party has to optimize giving the rogue sneak attack opportunities, but this means every time the SA triggers, they can trade the 2d6 precision damage to deal 1 Cha damage (through physical disfiguring, not mind affecting).

But who wants to flank TDC to give the Rogue the SA opportunity? How about a Druid (with Natural Bond)'s Ape Companion? His +12 to grapple isn't enough to keep pace with TDC, but it might be close enough to win occasionally when TDC rolls low. It's better than most fighters are likely to have and honestly, we just need a stop gap for a few rounds, because the Rogue can win with 2 successful SAs.

Since we have a druid, why not Summon Swarm while the Ape does the heavy lifting? A swarm of bats auto deals damage each round (who cares about AC?) and adds bleed damage. Speaking of heavy lifting, that Ape could use some Bull's Strength. Why not? Because that is literally all of this day's 2nd level spells? If I knew 1 of 4 encounters would be TDC, maybe best to save the big guns for the life threatening scenario. Maybe throw in an Entangle spell for good measure. Grappling creatures are already slowed, why let the crab move out of shanking position? He's strong enough to break free

Let's get a wizard in the mix to make the Rogue invisible (which is a Glamer and DOES affect TDC). That could get us halfway to victory in the surprise round (if rogue wins initiative, TDC might not get to act). The 17 FF AC is still a headache, but it was going to be anyway. And so long as TDC is busy grappling the Druid's Ape, grappling characters are denied Dex to AC to creatures outside the grapple.

Anyone else got ideas to chip in?

[Deophaun]

The Crab's Will save is terrible. If you know it's coming and have space to prepare, you could baleful transposition it into a large tub full of potatoes, corn, onions, and Old Bay and have yourself a good 'ol boil. Of course, this works best if you have multiple TDCs to throw in the gargantuan pot. That way they prevent each other from climbing out.

Getting hit with a ray of enfeeblement boosted by an empowered spellshard would put a nice cramp on its damage output. Get it nailed by kelgore's gravemist twice on top of that and it wouldn't be too hard to come up with a melee build it would need a nat 20 to hit and would have difficulty grappling.

[Goaty14]

If you can reliably hit a DC 20 CHA check, you can take the verminfriend feat (BoVD, not DoTU), make the check, and proceed to punch the poor thing to death. You could probably get a nat. +5 mod, Circlet of Persuasion +3, Nymph's Kiss +2, and then take 10. If you worry about the thing ignoring you and getting your allies, Stand Still + reasonable melee ability does the trick.

Even better (and easier), a druid with the Child of Winter feat can use Wild Empathy on vermin (if you're using PF, the Greater Wild Empathy ability also does this). So... I don't know how to hit that myself, but if somebody knows themselves...

[RaiKirah]

Well, a Human Barbarian 1/Totemist 2 with Jotunbrud, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Improved Grapple putting 1 point of essentia into Girallon Arms has a Grapple Check while raging of:

+2 (BAB) + 4 (Large) + 6 (22 STR) + 4 (Imp. Grapple) +4 (Girallon Arms) = +20, so you could try hugging That Damn Crab to death. Take two flaws for Extra Rage and Improved Essentia Capacity (at 3rd, Imp. Grapple at 1) to increase your Grapple Check to +22 and be useful in more than one encounter a day.

If you can spare the gold for someone to cast Open Least Chakra on you to bind the Totem Avatar to your feet you probably count as Huge for another +4. Have someone else cast Bull's Strength for another +2, and there are probably some other spells out there that would be useful

[Deophaun]

If you can reliably hit a DC 20 CHA check, you can take the verminfriend feat (BoVD, not DoTU), make the check, and proceed to punch the poor thing to death. You could probably get a nat. +5 mod, Circlet of Persuasion +3, Nymph's Kiss +2, and then take 10.

Taking 10 is going to be an issue, as you can technically only use it when you are about to be attacked, which not only precludes you from taking 10 but also puts you in melee range.

[Maat Mons]

If you're worried about drowning, there are any number of LA +0 races that either can breathe water, or don't need to breathe.

A cleric with the Travel domain can have 3 rounds of Freedom of Movement per day at 3rd level.

Drow of the Underdark has an ACF for Cleric that lets you rebuke vermin. You'd need to roll pretty well to affect a 7 HD creature though.

Being a Mineral Warrior could take the damage down to reasonable levels.

Since it leaves as soon as it grabs two creature to snack on, you could just feed it something. Cows cost 10 gp each, according to the Player's Handbook.

[Pleh]

Well, a Human Barbarian 1/Totemist 2 with Jotunbrud, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Improved Grapple putting 1 point of essentia into Girallon Arms has a Grapple Check while raging of:

+2 (BAB) + 4 (Large) + 6 (22 STR) + 4 (Imp. Grapple) +4 (Girallon Arms) = +20, so you could try hugging That Damn Crab to death. Take two flaws for Extra Rage and Improved Essentia Capacity (at 3rd, Imp. Grapple at 1) to increase your Grapple Check to +22 and be useful in more than one encounter a day.

If you can spare the gold for someone to cast Open Least Chakra on you to bind the Totem Avatar to your feet you probably count as Huge for another +4. Have someone else cast Bull's Strength for another +2, and there are probably some other spells out there that would be useful

Well done. I had guessed there was sone grappling barbarian out there somewhere but didn't have time to look myself. Teaming up with the Natural Bond Druid I suggested, the two could keep TDC's claws busy and the Jotunbrud could keep TDC from wandering away into the water. Being able to control the grapple also means the Maiming Strike Rogue is a little safer in constantly having opportunities to deal Cha damage.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Even better (and easier), a druid with the Child of Winter feat can use Wild Empathy on vermin (if you're using PF, the Greater Wild Empathy ability also does this). So... I don't know how to hit that myself, but if somebody knows themselves...

Rootwalker ACF swaps regular Wild Empathy for Vermin only Wild Empathy. Saves a feat and no alignment restrictions. Maybe Nymph's Kiss for +2 to all Charisma based checks. Take Gellbred Spirit for +2 CHA and Devil's favour feat. Get buffed with Eagle's Splendor. Anyone have a use for the last feat or do we use it to get 1/day reroll?

Druid +3
CHA +7
Nymph's Kiss +2

[Unavenger]

Cleric casting Balor Nimbus will do 21 damage per round to a TDC that grapples them, so if you can make it do extra damage or your party can bap the TDC on the nose, you'll do enough damage to kill it - the difficulty is just surviving that long in a grapple, which you can do with really high constitution and a good enough concentration check to heal yourself in a grapple, maybe?

[Pleh]

Cleric casting Balor Nimbus will do 21 damage per round to a TDC that grapples them, so if you can make it do extra damage or your party can bap the TDC on the nose, you'll do enough damage to kill it - the difficulty is just surviving that long in a grapple, which you can do with really high constitution and a good enough concentration check to heal yourself in a grapple, maybe?

Damage dealt by TDC is still just mundane bludgeoning (unless he pins you underwater, then possibly drowning). If you can pick up some easy DR (anyone got a good low level cleric spell?) and use a Vigor spell on yourself before you go into grapple, you have a pretty decent chance of surviving.

If you got Travel Domain, you could Freedom of Movement retreat if the dice aren't rolling favorably.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Azurin passive way monk 1/incarnate 1/crusader 1
Ability scores 18/16/14/8/8/8 (32-point buy)
Feats Combat Reflexes1, Combat Expertisemonk, Improved Unarmed Strikemonk, Improved Tripazurin, Midnight Dodgeflaw: vulnerable, Expanded Soulmeld Capacityflaw: shaky, Karmic Strike3.
Soulmelds Astral Vambraces (2 essentia), grants DR 6/magic; Therapeutic Mantle (1 essentia), increases all healing received by 2+spell level.
Maneuvers Martial Spirit, Crusader's Strike, Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, Vanguard Strike, Charging Minotaur.

Use a masterwork guisarme and keep a potion of enlarge person handy. Large size makes you immune to the crab's Improved Grab, which should shut down its grappling entirely (it doesn't have Improved Grapple). Of course, in a party, you'd rather have the party caster provide that spell. Other things to ask the party for: Strength buffs/debuffs, Trip buffs/debuffs, a marshal with Art of War.

With 20' reach and good strength (18 base + 2 potion), you should be able to trip the crab about 40% of the time, with your +13 against its +14. It might be better not to trip at all, if the crab's going to counter-trip you (it counter-trips at +10, because the +4 stability bonus is only defensive), so this depends on how many buffs you have up.

With Karmic Strike and 20' reach, you should get two AoOs per round, each of which can be another trip + follow-up, good for 10 hp healed. You can get a third AoO if the crab was tripped and needs to get up from prone. When your turn comes up, move away and repeat. Use Douse the Flames to disengage, if available (deliver via melee touch if the crab got inside your guisarme range).

If the crab grabs you, you can still heal with Martial Spirit, and I think you can Flurry and Trip, too. A prone crab can't drag you off to the sea, at least.

The crab deals 1d8+9-6 (avg. 7.5) damage per hit, and basically always hits (your AC is 6) so it takes about 4 attacks to kill you--thanks to Steely Resolve.
You deal 2d6+7 damage per hit, and you hit 45 or 50% of the time (attack bonus +7, or +8 with Furious Counterstrike), so it takes an average of 10 attacks to kill the crab--note that tripping can improve your hit chance, and you have ways to boost your allies' hit chance. Each hit also heals 5 hp, or 10 if it's a successful trip + attack. Assuming three attacks per round, you can heal 7.5 average, letting you tank one crab attack per round.

It's hardly a sure kill, but with a little party support, I feel that there's a very good chance of winning.

[Zaq]

Azurin passive way monk 1/incarnate 1/crusader 1
Ability scores 18/16/14/8/8/8 (32-point buy)
Feats Combat Reflexes1, Combat Expertisemonk, Improved Unarmed Strikemonk, Improved Tripazurin, Midnight Dodgeflaw: vulnerable, Expanded Soulmeld Capacityflaw: shaky, Karmic Strike3.
Soulmelds Astral Vambraces (2 essentia), grants DR 6/magic; Therapeutic Mantle (1 essentia), increases all healing received by 2+spell level.
Maneuvers Martial Spirit, Crusader's Strike, Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, Vanguard Strike, Charging Minotaur.

Use a masterwork guisarme and keep a potion of enlarge person handy. Large size makes you immune to the crab's Improved Grab, which should shut down its grappling entirely (it doesn't have Improved Grapple). Of course, in a party, you'd rather have the party caster provide that spell. Other things to ask the party for: Strength buffs/debuffs, Trip buffs/debuffs, a marshal with Art of War.

With 20' reach and good strength (18 base + 2 potion), you should be able to trip the crab about 40% of the time, with your +13 against its +14. It might be better not to trip at all, if the crab's going to counter-trip you (it counter-trips at +10, because the +4 stability bonus is only defensive), so this depends on how many buffs you have up.

With Karmic Strike and 20' reach, you should get two AoOs per round, each of which can be another trip + follow-up, good for 10 hp healed. You can get a third AoO if the crab was tripped and needs to get up from prone. When your turn comes up, move away and repeat. Use Douse the Flames to disengage, if available (deliver via melee touch if the crab got inside your guisarme range).

If the crab grabs you, you can still heal with Martial Spirit, and I think you can Flurry and Trip, too. A prone crab can't drag you off to the sea, at least.

The crab deals 1d8+9-6 (avg. 7.5) damage per hit, and basically always hits (your AC is 6) so it takes about 4 attacks to kill you--thanks to Steely Resolve.
You deal 2d6+7 damage per hit, and you hit 45 or 50% of the time (attack bonus +7, or +8 with Furious Counterstrike), so it takes an average of 10 attacks to kill the crab--note that tripping can improve your hit chance, and you have ways to boost your allies' hit chance. Each hit also heals 5 hp, or 10 if it's a successful trip + attack. Assuming three attacks per round, you can heal 7.5 average, letting you tank one crab attack per round.

It's hardly a sure kill, but with a little party support, I feel that there's a very good chance of winning.

That’s really clever, but it’s juuust barely illegal. Since you’re not getting Improved Trip as a Monk bonus feat, you need 13 INT to qualify. (Yes, the prereqs are Combat Expertise and 13 INT, rather than just assuming that Combat Expertise’s 13 INT prereq will gate you properly.) Think you can fix that easily?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

A casting of Snakes swiftness would allow Maim rogue to get TDC to 0 CHA in a single round. Same if they dual wield and get moved in via benign transposition for full attack.

[ExLibrisMortis]

That’s really clever, but it’s juuust barely illegal. Since you’re not getting Improved Trip as a Monk bonus feat, you need 13 INT to qualify. (Yes, the prereqs are Combat Expertise and 13 INT, rather than just assuming that Combat Expertise’s 13 INT prereq will gate you properly.) Think you can fix that easily?
Ugh :smallmad:.

Replace Improved Trip with Claws of the Beast, and, in keeping with a monk's Lawful nature, buy a single casting of shun the dark chaos from an Ur-Priest for 1250 + 80*8 = 1890 gp, leaving just enough left of third-level WBL (2700 gp) to buy a masterwork guisarme (309 gp) and a potion of enlarge person (250 gp).

Edit 1: Oh, and you need to buy an INT booster (+5) which works for one round. What's the rent on a headband of intellect?

That'll let you take the feat, but not use it. Hmm.


Edit 2: I guess the best way to go is to drop strength, boost INT, and grab a potion of alter self (should be 2*3*50 = 300 gp) to turn into something with 18+ Strength (and 16+ dex). I think there's some Large humanoids around. LA buyoff for extra stats could do it, too.


Edit 3: Screw this, let's just go with half-minotaur and LA buyoff. +10/-2/+6/-2/+0/+0 racial adjustments, +5 NA too, put a 15 in starting Intelligence to make up for the penalty. Point-buy 12/18/12/15/8/8 (32 pb), final stats 22/16/18/13/8/8. Skips the potion. Boring cheese, but practical.


Edit 4: I hate Improved Trip now. Thanks, Zaq :smallyuk:.

[Maat Mons]

You know what? I'm just going to go with a jermlaine druid 3. I'll take the fiery burst reserve feat and choose a vulture as my animal companion.

Jermlaines are tiny, vultures are medium, so I'll just ride it and effectively gain its 60-foot fly speed. Fiery burst lets me burn it from 30 feet in the God damn air. Suck it, anything that doesn't have ranged attacks!

If you're curious, I chose jermlaine over muckdweller for the +6 wisdom. And I chose vulture over other flying animal companions because, fluff-wise, it's one of the few animals that wouldn't find a jermlaine repulsize.

[Troacctid]

If we're having this discussion, I feel it does need to be mentioned that the monstrous crab was updated in Stormwrack with new stats and multiple sizes.

[OgresAreCute]

If you're unfamiliar with That Damn Crab, it's technically called the "Monstrous Crab" and is found at the link above. (There was another "Monstrous Crab" printed in Stormwrack with somewhat saner numbers, but that's less interesting, so let's talk about the forum-canonical TDC at the link, 'kay? 'Kay.)


If we're having this discussion, I feel it does need to be mentioned that the monstrous crab was updated in Stormwrack with new stats and multiple sizes.

It already was.

[Thurbane]

Glitterdust and other non-mind affecting Will save attacks should be effective.

[Jack_Simth]

You know what? I'm just going to go with a jermlaine druid 3. I'll take the fiery burst reserve feat and choose a vulture as my animal companion.

Jermlaines are tiny, vultures are medium, so I'll just ride it and effectively gain its 60-foot fly speed. Fiery burst lets me burn it from 30 feet in the God damn air. Suck it, anything that doesn't have ranged attacks!

If you're curious, I chose jermlaine over muckdweller for the +6 wisdom. And I chose vulture over other flying animal companions because, fluff-wise, it's one of the few animals that wouldn't find a jermlaine repulsize.
Anthropomorphic Bat (Savage Species) can fly on it's own, and has the same +6 Wis. Solid tactic against TDC. Note, however, that any slow damage over time strategy means it can run off with your party mates.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Note, however, that any slow damage over time strategy means it can run off with your party mates.
And Fiery Burst will hit your fellows, too!

[Maat Mons]

Anthropomorphic Bat (Savage Species) can fly on it's own, and has the same +6 Wis.

True, but the vulture's move speed is 3x that of the anthropomorphic bat. Plus your mount can double move, or even run, and you can still use Fiery Burst that same round. That might be relevant if you wind up fighting the crab someplace with a low ceiling.

[Anthrowhale]

A level 3 wizard could cast Wounding Spell Sonic Snap and run away until it bleeds out. A Sorcerer with a Flaw could do this at level 1.

[KillianHawkeye]

Have you tried attacking its weak point for MASSIVE DAMAGE??? :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

[Crake]

the average ray of enfeeblement at that level would reduce it's strength by about 4, but on a lucky roll (or cast it a couple of times in hopes of a better roll) you could reduce it by 7. With only 13 strength, the crab's damage goes from 1d8+9 to 1d8+1, pretty substantial damage reduction, and reducing it's attack bonus/grapple to +6/+15 making it much more managable.

Then throw in a simple warblade with anklets of translocation to act as a frontliner, teleporting out of his grasp and wailing on it with maneuvers. +15 grapple is still pretty chunky, meaning if it hits, it'll also probably grab, dealing 2d8+2 damage, or about 11 damage on average (less than a previous regular hit though, which is nice), but at only +6 to hit, a level 3 warblade could easily out-AC it, fullplate and a heavy shield, along with a shield of faith cast by the party cleric, and +1 dex, that gets you 23 AC, meaning it'll only hit you on a 17, or one in 5 attacks.

[Kayblis]

I believe you can debuff TDC pretty easily with some common spells. Ray of Enfeeblement is avg -4.5 to STR, which drops the damage and roll bonuses by a lot. Grease sends it to the ground and makes it flat-footed(it has +4 Reflex and no skills, and goes to a much more manageable AC of 15). Glitterdust makes it blind(it has +2 Will). Web lets you pelt it with arrows for a couple rounds.

Out of Core, Kelgore's Grave Mist is free Fatigue, Ray of Clumsiness reduces AC, Escalating Enfeeblement is a good follow-up to Enfeeblement(by RAI they stack, even if RAW is nonfunctional at times), Blockade can slow it down and a couple others can reduce his threat pretty substantially. That's with 1st and 2nd level spells that are useful most of the time, not specifying race or feats. This can be accomplished by any 3rd level wizard with an effective spellbook selection.

EDIT: You can put this guy in a common melee team, add a Fighter, a Barbarian and a Rogue to whack at the beast until it dies. Grease is specially effective here because the beast provokes AoOs from everyone if he tries to stand up AND if he chooses to attack from the ground, and has a -4 AC from being prone. That's great for Sneak Attacks. If a character is ever caught, another cast of Grease can free the person with a hefty +10 to its opposed check to free itself.

[Elkad]

Feeding it horses, hirelings or animal companions while you pincushion it from afar works fine.

Various flight means (spider climb, levitate) work.

Simply kiting it on an archer isn't hard. Staying in precision range but outside charge range is a problem, but you have time.

If my party members can't outrun a 40' crab, see the first option. Not my fault their characters are excessively slow.

Entangling Ectoplasm lets anyone (well, except unmounted halflings in plate) stay out of range and pelt it with stuff, assuming they start there.

It's dumb as hell, so you should even be able to introduce a state where it keeps moving towards the "nearest creature", which is behind it. Who then scampers away on his turn, while someone else moves to the "nearest" position, but far enough away to not get grabbed.
Next round it turns around and goes the other way. You may even get to make good use of the Set to Receive Charge rules with your spears.


Beating it at it's speciality, toe-to-toe combat?
Be large, have large friends (yay potions), and expect to finish the fight with several of you unconscious, even with Crusader healing strikes and such.

[ComaVision]

I put one into a low-ish leveled game as an obviously optional enemy for the hell of it. My group baited it around it's known hunting grounds, then focus fired it. TDC ran up to the nearest enemy (sword'n'board fighter) and promptly rolled a garbage attack roll. It didn't get a second chance.

[MeimuHakurei]

Petal Ranger 1 with Favored Enemy (vermin) supplemented with a good skill build.

Fly over TDC and chip away its hit points 1d4 damage at a time.

[Unavenger]

Incidentally, a druid with Greenbound Summoning can probably win just by using SNA spells to get greenbound creatures which should be able to spam Entangle and whale on it with +6 strength on all their attacks.

[Albions_Angel]

TDC is nasty, but only if you fight it on its terms. Its an ambush predator, and like many D&D ambush monsters, it has the potential to kill a couple of party members on or near turn 2 of combat. Generally "Surprise! I go first! Have some damage and a nasty secondary effect!" Initiative happens, then "My turn again, you didnt outsmart me, time to make sure that secondary effect kills one of you!"

TDC runs out of water, and grabs a PC. Thats the surprise round. Now what it WANTS to do on turn 2 is drag said PC into the water and drown them. On turn 1, assuming it makes the grab, its essentially dealing 2d8+18 damage. Which for a level 3 character, probably puts them down. But lets be honest, the grappled PC wasnt going to be contributing much anyway.

BUT, then we are into initiative. And its only got +2. Sure, it could roll well, but so could anything. The point is, the party should have a decent number that will statistically go before the TDC. And their job? Its not "kill it". Their job is to "make it fight on our terms". So stop it going into the water. Entangle and Briar Thorn are both available to a druid by that point, and are likely to be common spells they would be carrying. Wizards and Sorcs also have access to some BFC. Its vermin, so it auto-believes illusions that arnt crazy. It might be immune to mind affecting, but its not immune to some illusionary sea beast behind it suddenly appearing, driving it away from the water. Its also grabbed someone. And so its down to a single claw attack a round.

A clever party will have it locked down in the first initiative round, or second round of combat total. Its not smart. Its not going to grab someone, crush them until they fall unconscious, then drop and try again. Its going to protect its food item. Its not letting that PC go (but if they go limp, why would it risk crushing them in half and dropping them?).

So, with BFC and some minor illusions, or some other form of lock down, TDC is suddenly a fairly regular CR3 encounter, with a bag of hit points. Its got minuscule touch AC, its regular AC isnt hard for a party of level 3s.

And that second claw? Either it tries to defend itself, or it tries to be greedy and grab a second lunch. Oh no, party is down to 2 people BUT THE CRAB IS STILL CONTROLLED AND NOW IT CANT ATTACK!!!

Im not saying its easy. Maybe it should be CR4, but its vermin. Its stupid. And it has one trick. I would argue its not a bad match for a quarter of a party's resources at level 3, when they can drop entangles, fireballs, summon monsters, enlarge the barbarian, and do any number of things to the poor creature. Not to mention, you dont have to kill it. Hit it enough and the stupid thing will run away.

[Pleh]

TDC is nasty, but only if you fight it on its terms. Its an ambush predator, and like many D&D ambush monsters, it has the potential to kill a couple of party members on or near turn 2 of combat. Generally "Surprise! I go first! Have some damage and a nasty secondary effect!" Initiative happens, then "My turn again, you didnt outsmart me, time to make sure that secondary effect kills one of you!"

TDC runs out of water, and grabs a PC. Thats the surprise round. Now what it WANTS to do on turn 2 is drag said PC into the water and drown them. On turn 1, assuming it makes the grab, its essentially dealing 2d8+18 damage. Which for a level 3 character, probably puts them down. But lets be honest, the grappled PC wasnt going to be contributing much anyway.

BUT, then we are into initiative. And its only got +2. Sure, it could roll well, but so could anything. The point is, the party should have a decent number that will statistically go before the TDC. And their job? Its not "kill it". Their job is to "make it fight on our terms". So stop it going into the water. Entangle and Briar Thorn are both available to a druid by that point, and are likely to be common spells they would be carrying. Wizards and Sorcs also have access to some BFC. Its vermin, so it auto-believes illusions that arnt crazy. It might be immune to mind affecting, but its not immune to some illusionary sea beast behind it suddenly appearing, driving it away from the water. Its also grabbed someone. And so its down to a single claw attack a round.

A clever party will have it locked down in the first initiative round, or second round of combat total. Its not smart. Its not going to grab someone, crush them until they fall unconscious, then drop and try again. Its going to protect its food item. Its not letting that PC go (but if they go limp, why would it risk crushing them in half and dropping them?).

So, with BFC and some minor illusions, or some other form of lock down, TDC is suddenly a fairly regular CR3 encounter, with a bag of hit points. Its got minuscule touch AC, its regular AC isnt hard for a party of level 3s.

And that second claw? Either it tries to defend itself, or it tries to be greedy and grab a second lunch. Oh no, party is down to 2 people BUT THE CRAB IS STILL CONTROLLED AND NOW IT CANT ATTACK!!!

Im not saying its easy. Maybe it should be CR4, but its vermin. Its stupid. And it has one trick. I would argue its not a bad match for a quarter of a party's resources at level 3, when they can drop entangles, fireballs, summon monsters, enlarge the barbarian, and do any number of things to the poor creature. Not to mention, you dont have to kill it. Hit it enough and the stupid thing will run away.

I think the point is that it's an odd CR3 not because a party level 3 can't handle it, but because a party level 3 still somewhat needs System Competency to have a good chance for success. Most monsters are more or less difficult depending on how prepared you are for them, but this one is unusually vicious to the unprepared who expect a standard monster fight.

It IS a standard, balanced fight, but moreso than most of its kind, it punishes those who don't understand the system.

It reminds me of the Hydra in MM specifically described as being CR variable depending on how prepared the party is (most parties won't have a sunder specialist, but those that do will have a much easier time fighting Hydra).

[Albions_Angel]

Ill give you that. Its an unusual CR3 in that it requires more than a sack of 3HD PCs with level 3 damage hitting it with sticks until it falls over.

But its not unique. Sandstorm has the Marrulurk at CR4, which will stalk a party and, if the DM is particularly mean, straight up KILL the first target it hits. They require a different sort of system mastery, because the Marrulurk is super weak, so a DM should not be playing them in open combat.

Im not saying a party should just fight TDC all day every day. But I think its totally appropriate to be in a coastal random encounter table and give the XP it is supposed to. And by level 3, I would expect even the most inexperienced party to be throwing out BFC the first turn they can. Its tough, it makes them think, but at level 3, encounters SHOULD make you think.

[Remuko]

And by level 3, I would expect even the most inexperienced party to be throwing out BFC the first turn they can. Its tough, it makes them think, but at level 3, encounters SHOULD make you think.

I think youre making a lot of assumptions that might apply in a place such as this but definitely not in general. I played 3.5 with a group for many many years at lvls from 1-30+ and i cant think of any cases where anyone used any BFC at all (im sure it happened but theres nothing I can recall).

[ericgrau]

Actually CR 3 is supposed to be a routine fight for a level 3 party of 4. For a "very difficult" fight you want to try this with a level 1 party. For an "overpowering" fight with a chance of a very bloody success but possible party wipe, give that level 1 party 2 crabs to fight.

Nitpick: Crab's listed tactics are to grab TWO PCs, retreat into the water, and nom nom. After that he's probably full for a while.

Something else in his tactics that may be helpful: The crab is primarily a scavenger and 2nd a hunter. So if you drop a big lump of meat he'll probably prefer that over a struggling target. That's still a problem if you get ambushed and weren't expecting the crab though. Then he nabs a PC in the surprise round. But it might do something if you can prepare, make a spot check, or if you pass a knowledge check.

[Pleh]

Actually CR 3 is supposed to be a routine fight for a level 3 party of 4. For a "very difficult" fight you want to try this with a level 1 party. For an "overpowering" fight with a chance of a very bloody success but possible party wipe, give that level 1 party 2 crabs to fight.

Nitpick: Crab's listed tactics are to grab TWO PCs, retreat into the water, and nom nom. After that he's probably full for a while.

Something else in his tactics that may be helpful: The crab is primarily a scavenger and 2nd a hunter. So if you drop a big lump of meat he'll probably prefer that over a struggling target. That's still a problem if you get ambushed and weren't expecting the crab though. Then he nabs a PC in the surprise round. But it might do something if you can prepare, make a spot check, or if you pass a knowledge check.

Kind of makes me wish there was a "generate bait" spell for situations like this. Maybe functions like a 1st level variant of "create water" but just creates edible flesh that may not taste great to humanoids (makes them Nauseated for an hour and they make a Fort save or take 1d3 Con damage), but is a perfect distraction for hungry scavengers. Just raw protein designed to smell tasty to creatures that eat anything that doesn't run fast enough. I know a lot of people might use a Summoned Creature for a similar effect, but ultimately the scavenger doesn't get to eat the summoned creature who just poofs out of existence when it hits 0 HP.

[Necroticplague]

Well, for all the Crab’s power, it can’t fly, and doesn’t have ranged attacks. A Wizard with Alter Self and a bow has has both. So, assuming humanoid, turn into an avariel, and just start plinking away. Eventually, you’ll get him. If he goes back underwater (and thus has cover), it might be a while, but you’ll get him eventually.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Ill give you that. Its an unusual CR3 in that it requires more than a sack of 3HD PCs with level 3 damage hitting it with sticks until it falls over.

But its not unique. Sandstorm has the Marrulurk at CR4, which will stalk a party and, if the DM is particularly mean, straight up KILL the first target it hits. They require a different sort of system mastery, because the Marrulurk is super weak, so a DM should not be playing them in open combat.

Im not saying a party should just fight TDC all day every day. But I think its totally appropriate to be in a coastal random encounter table and give the XP it is supposed to. And by level 3, I would expect even the most inexperienced party to be throwing out BFC the first turn they can. Its tough, it makes them think, but at level 3, encounters SHOULD make you think.

The reason it's not considered appropriate for its CR is that it'll straight-up kill one or two PCs in the first round unless you specifically counter it.
That's really the main issue, the Powerful Claws ability and the immediate Constrict on a hit combined with its massive grapple mod. The big pile of hp and reach is just icing on the cake.
But 2d8+18 damage will one-hit kill most level 3 PCs and it's not exactly unlikely to hit with both attacks (easily grabbing two PCs because of reach) in the first round, potentially killing half the party in one round.
That's not an encounter of "moderate difficulty" no matter how you look at it.

Again, remember that the players are not assumed to know its stat block even if they identify it with a knowledge check.
Without pre-existing knowledge the time you find out just how dangerous it is in melee is the time it cuts your two frontliners in half with a single hit each, long before Raise Dead makes an appearance.
Fighting it has nothing to do with system mastery, it's all meta knowledge. Which doesn't factor into CR.

Just because a prepared party of optimized PCs can beat it when played by experienced players doesn't mean its numbers aren't wildly out of line with other CR 3 encounters.

[Albions_Angel]

It cant grab 2 in the first (surprise) round. It needs to reach the party first. It doesnt appear next to you, and what party of adventurers are walking IN THE SURF of the sea? Surprise round is "run at party". Maybe, if its lucky, "run at party and grab 1 person". Second round is "Grab second person and/or try to ward off blows". And it doesnt kill. It puts them at 0 or negative hp. They are still alive... for now.

Im not saying its not hard, but its not impossible and will, once its dead and the PC has been revived, have taken roughly 1/4 of daily resources.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It cant grab 2 in the first (surprise) round. It needs to reach the party first. It doesnt appear next to you, and what party of adventurers are walking IN THE SURF of the sea? Surprise round is "run at party". Maybe, if its lucky, "run at party and grab 1 person". Second round is "Grab second person and/or try to ward off blows". And it doesnt kill. It puts them at 0 or negative hp. They are still alive... for now.

Im not saying its not hard, but its not impossible and will, once its dead and the PC has been revived, have taken roughly 1/4 of daily resources.

With what are you reviving people at level 3?
And it's not "if it's lucky". With a +10 to hit that's the likely outcome. The party is lucky if it doesn't.
It'll also likely get an AoO because of its 10ft reach. Unless the party marches in a spaced out formation that'll likely be when someone tries to cast BFC on it, which will kill the caster if it hits.

And by the second round the guy grabbed in the first will already be dead unless he happens to be a class with high hp. Otherwise he'll be unconscious and out of the fight while his party gets killed.
Unless you've got some optimized damage dealers around it'll take more than one round to burn through its hp, especially with at least one man down.

No, it's not impossible. But it's not a "moderately difficult" fight (in other words: of CR = party level) for a level 3 party by any measure.

[Telok]

Doesn't the crab have rubbish hide and spot modifiers? If I recall correctly the air/water interface also blocks line of sight most of the time too. Which would mean that under circumstances that aren't intended to drop the crab on the party within charge distance, the party should usually spot it first.

[ericgrau]

It cant grab 2 in the first (surprise) round. It needs to reach the party first. It doesnt appear next to you, and what party of adventurers are walking IN THE SURF of the sea? Surprise round is "run at party". Maybe, if its lucky, "run at party and grab 1 person". Second round is "Grab second person and/or try to ward off blows". And it doesnt kill. It puts them at 0 or negative hp. They are still alive... for now.

Im not saying its not hard, but its not impossible and will, once its dead and the PC has been revived, have taken roughly 1/4 of daily resources.
Killing 1/4 of the party is a pretty liberal reading of taking 1/4th of daily resources. Though much of this is true.

In the surprise round you can actually charge half distance so it still might grab a PC. It's one of those stupid niche combos like dwarves can tumble in full plate. Part 1 of combo states that the surprise round allows only a standard action. Part 2 of combo states that you can charge half distance as a standard action rather than a full round action, but only when you are limited to only a standard action. Being limited to only a standard action is so rare I wish they'd just spell out the combo for you instead of making you piece it together. But that's 3.5's style: vomit out a giant pile of rules and let the player sort it out. The giant pile of rules is perhaps 3.5's greatest strength while the vomiting part is perhaps its greatest weakness.


Doesn't the crab have rubbish hide and spot modifiers? If I recall correctly the air/water interface also blocks line of sight most of the time too. Which would mean that under circumstances that aren't intended to drop the crab on the party within charge distance, the party should usually spot it first.
This too. It probably won't get a surprise round against most/all PCs.

Actually I glimpsed at the aquatic rules and it says most water doesn't provide concealment, which means the crab can't hide at all. Everyone usually sees it without any spot checks because the spot rules say "The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding." Its combat section says "A monstrous crab is straightforward in combat. It lumbers forth toward the nearest target and attacks with its claws." I don't think it even attempts to surprise. IMO there's never or almost never a surprise round with TDC.

[Albions_Angel]

But thats what I mean. Its not lucky to hit (it will hit), but it has to be lucky to be within its surprise charge distance to even be allowed a surprise attack!

Also, its not KILLING that pc, its TAKING THEM TO NEGATIVE HITPOINTS. Sure, they might die, but the crab will stop squeezing once its food has stopped struggling. So reviving them is as simple as pumping HP into them. And you have 3 rounds to do that IF you play with death saving throws. Its not that one player is a liberal reading of 1/4 party resources. Its that BFC, a handful of touch spells, an enlarge person, some potions and a summon, THEN 3 jabs with a wand of lesser vigor is about 1/4 party resources.

And you are right. Its hide is rubbish. A party should spot it. A party should be ready for it.

Its not easy. Maybe CR 4 is better. But its not impossible by any means.

[Pleh]

It cant grab 2 in the first (surprise) round. It needs to reach the party first. It doesnt appear next to you, and what party of adventurers are walking IN THE SURF of the sea?

Zaq's OP posited that appearing in its natural habitat was only 1 of the possible scenarios under which you might encounter the monster in this discussion. Another possibility that was mentioned was that someone managed to make the thing into a dungeon guard stationed to protect some door and/or treasure.

I'm mostly saying this to rebut the notion that we must only consider scenarios where TDC is hiding just off the coast. You're right that it's still unlikely to suddenly appear adjacent to the part with its claws snapping.

Although, that could be a really nasty DM trick: The BBEG wizard decides to throw you a curveball and drops TDC into the middle of the group after enraging the beast (so it is operating out of rage and self defense rather than hunger).

I could see a Dungeon version of TDC where it's hidden beneath a trapdoor on a sloped floor, sitting on a pit below the trap with a ramp to let TDC walk out when some creature triggers the trapdoor.

[ericgrau]

But thats what I mean. Its not lucky to hit (it will hit), but it has to be lucky to be within its surprise charge distance to even be allowed a surprise attack!

Also, its not KILLING that pc, its TAKING THEM TO NEGATIVE HITPOINTS. Sure, they might die, but the crab will stop squeezing once its food has stopped struggling. So reviving them is as simple as pumping HP into them. And you have 3 rounds to do that IF you play with death saving throws. Its not that one player is a liberal reading of 1/4 party resources. Its that BFC, a handful of touch spells, an enlarge person, some potions and a summon, THEN 3 jabs with a wand of lesser vigor is about 1/4 party resources.

And you are right. Its hide is rubbish. A party should spot it. A party should be ready for it.

Its not easy. Maybe CR 4 is better. But its not impossible by any means.
Well I'd say there absolutely is no surprise round because it can't hide at all, agreed there. But I think the point of this thread is how do you beat it with planning and knowledge of the creature, which makes it plenty doable. That's the special clause that opens up an interesting build discussion. As a random encounter you usually do not have planning nor knowledge of the creature and it is way out of line compared to other creatures. Dropping a PC is not a routine fight, whether the PC lives or dies. That's typical of CR = PL + 2 (CR 5) right off the bat. If more drop, then more than CR 5. Such as the likely event (again, without foreknowledge of the foe) that after a couple rounds he flees with 2 PCs in his claws who are never seen again.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Although, that could be a really nasty DM trick: The BBEG wizard decides to throw you a curveball and drops TDC into the middle of the group after enraging the beast (so it is operating out of rage and self defense rather than hunger).

I could see a Dungeon version of TDC where it's hidden beneath a trapdoor on a sloped floor, sitting on a pit below the trap with a ramp to let TDC walk out when some creature triggers the trapdoor.
You don't even need elaborate mechanical tricks. Just use a pit trap that drops people into a room with it. Much better than some spikes or a pool of acid.
If you want to be extra nasty make it a 30ft x 30ft pit and partially fill it with water so they have to fight underwater and there's no space that's out of TDC's reach.

Or just trap one with Smoky Confinement and then drop the bottle into the middle of the party when they trigger a tripwire.

[Deophaun]

Sure, they might die, but the crab will stop squeezing once its food has stopped struggling.
TDC has Improved Grab, which automatically deals NA damage with each successful grapple. It also has constrict, which it can choose to use on top of that.

The point is, TDC would have to make a conscious decision not to keep crushing the thing in its claws by virtue of IG. TDC is also mindless, so incapable of making that conscious decision.

Your guys are dead.

[sleepyphoenixx]

TDC has Improved Grab, which automatically deals NA damage with each successful grapple. It also has constrict, which it can choose to use on top of that.

The point is, TDC would have to make a conscious decision not to keep crushing the thing in its claws by virtue of IG. TDC is also mindless, so incapable of making that conscious decision.

Your guys are dead.

Against anything with less than d8 HD and 14 Con it might not matter anyway. 2d8 +18 damage has a good chance to kill a third level character outright if they're below that.
A high roll might even ohk a cleric or druid with 14 Con (who would have an average 23hp).

[ericgrau]

Against anything with less than d8 HD and 14 Con it might not matter anyway. 2d8 +18 damage has a good chance to kill a third level character outright if they're below that.
A high roll might even ohk a cleric or druid with 14 Con (who would have an average 23hp).

On the plus side TDC won't drop the corpse since it's food, so improved grab works to the PCs advantage. The 2 PC death cap is the nicest thing he has going for him.

[sleepyphoenixx]

On the plus side TDC won't drop the corpse since it's food, so improved grab works to the PCs advantage. The 2 PC death cap is the nicest thing he has going for him.

I'd say that depends. If it can retreat it wouldn't, but if you prevent it from escaping with its food i don't see why it wouldn't drop the corpses to defend itself.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Vermin HD are worth 1/4 CR each. For just +1 by-the-book CR, you can make this crab 11 HD and Huge. That takes its Strength up to 30, Constitution up to 25, and NA up to 11, but drops Dexterity to 12 (AC 20). It's attacks are now two claws at +16 (2d6+15), grapple is now at +30, and hit points are up to 11d8+88 (137 average).

It's pretty much equally likely to be dropped by a 2nd-level BFC spell (sorcerers can now play the game, too), and it's slightly more capable of slugging it out with an equal-level PC. The best part is that it's capable of improved-grabbing Large creatures now, which means the "be Large" defence no longer works. Also, it's supposedly a good boss encounter for a 2nd-level party :smallbiggrin:.

[OgresAreCute]

Vermin HD are worth 1/4 CR each. For just +1 by-the-book CR, you can make this crab 11 HD and Huge. That takes its Strength up to 30, Constitution up to 25, and NA up to 11, but drops Dexterity to 12 (AC 20). It's attacks are now two claws at +16 (2d6+15), grapple is now at +30, and hit points are up to 11d8+88 (137 average).

It's pretty much equally likely to be dropped by a 2nd-level BFC spell (sorcerers can now play the game, too), and it's slightly more capable of slugging it out with an equal-level PC. The best part is that it's capable of improved-grabbing Large creatures now, which means the "be Large" defence no longer works. Also, it's supposedly a good boss encounter for a 2nd-level party :smallbiggrin:.

Size increase from advancement adds another +1 CR, so it would be CR 5 advanced in this manner.

[Nifft]

Throw on the Half-Dragon template (for CR 5) and now it's got a Fly speed, one energy immunity, a Bite attack, and another +8 Str. On the downside its claw attacks seem to deal less base damage, but it retains its Improved Grab and Constrict. And did I mention that it flies.

Make them half-white dragons and they'd be appropriate as a Xixecal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#xixecal)'s STD.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, a level 1 core 28pb party of Wizard/Wizard/Barbarian/Barbarian does fine. Barbarians with reach weapons, Wizards with Grease and Enlarge Person, first Grease it to stop it then Enlarge the Barbarians and have them wail at it while the second Wizard prepares a Grease. Of course, this doesn't work if it gets surprise but given you have two Gray Elf Wizards with probably at least 16 Dex, often one of them will get to act first. Barbies could be Human with Improved Trip to a reasonable success rate. Level 3 version of the same party would be more than fine.

[ComaVision]

Throw on the Half-Dragon template (for CR 5) and now it's got a Fly speed, one energy immunity, a Bite attack, and another +8 Str. On the downside its claw attacks seem to deal less base damage, but it retains its Improved Grab and Constrict. And did I mention that it flies.

Make them half-white dragons and they'd be appropriate as a Xixecal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#xixecal)'s STD.

I made a Half-Dragon TDC once that I was going to stick in a big underground lake but I wussed out and swapped it out for something less frightening when my group actually got there.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Size increase from advancement adds another +1 CR, so it would be CR 5 advanced in this manner.
Good catch, I forgot about that. Definitely more reasonable at CR 5.

[Aldrakan]

Ugh :smallmad:.

[complicated stuff]


Edit 4: I hate Improved Trip now. Thanks, Zaq :smallyuk:.

If you're open to using Pathfinder materials I think you can bypass all that by just taking Dirty Fighting instead of Combat Expertise, it counts as Combat Expertise and 13 Int, seeing as you only care about the prerequisites.

[ericgrau]

Honestly, a level 1 core 28pb party of Wizard/Wizard/Barbarian/Barbarian does fine. Barbarians with reach weapons, Wizards with Grease and Enlarge Person, first Grease it to stop it then Enlarge the Barbarians and have them wail at it while the second Wizard prepares a Grease. Of course, this doesn't work if it gets surprise but given you have two Gray Elf Wizards with probably at least 16 Dex, often one of them will get to act first. Barbies could be Human with Improved Trip to a reasonable success rate. Level 3 version of the same party would be more than fine.
Sure if TDC fails every single save, including the ones to get up. Each time he passes a save a PC is likely to die. His modifier to resist trip is +14. Barbarian's is 9-10. For that matter level 1 grease lasts 1 round.

Since we're allowed advanced planning you could throw 2 dead and plucked turkeys at TDC. Then either run or use the time you just bought to employ another strategy.

[RaiKirah]

Since we're allowed advanced planning you could throw 2 dead and plucked turkeys at TDC. Then either run or use the time you just bought to employ another strategy.

This sounds like a job for a Chicken Infested Commoner :)

[ericgrau]

This sounds like a job for a Chicken Infested Commoner :)
This made me lol.

Along those lines you could take Delicious and Pig Bond. Even if TDC wins initiative, he must proceed to nab you and the pig first, one in each claw. Pig Bond says that if the pig is ever more than a few inches from you, he transforms into Orcus and skins you. But he's probably mad at TDC too for holding him in his claws, so I'd say victory with only 1 PC dead isn't terrible.

Wait, I know. Halfling commoner on a pony. Delicious flaw. Stay 30'+ behind the party. Kite TDC while everyone else kills him.

[RoboEmperor]

Shoot it while flying (alter self)

Unload all of your Conjure Ice Beast with Ice Aura

Shoot while running away on a horse.

[MrSinister]

The Crab's Will save is terrible. If you know it's coming and have space to prepare, you could baleful transposition it into a large tub full of potatoes, corn, onions, and Old Bay and have yourself a good 'ol boil. Of course, this works best if you have multiple TDCs to throw in the gargantuan pot. That way they prevent each other from climbing out.

okay so now I want to play a campaign of crazy adventurers that don't seek treasure but seek out weird monsters to kill, cook, and eat. Like one of those old timey Gentlemen's Society clubs that probably hunted and ate dudes.

[Pleh]

Shoot it while flying (alter self)

Unload all of your Conjure Ice Beast with Ice Aura

Shoot while running away on a horse.

Just to remind people, according to the OP, the Beach scenario is a possible environment for this encounter, but it just as easily could take place in a dungeon, where flying might be more limited than you are thinking.

TDC has space of 10ft, reach of 10ft. I don't use the 3d rules often, but I believe that means TDC occupies or threatens up to 20ft vertical. Dungeons that contain large beasts will need large cavities to allow them to move, but a 20ft+ ceiling is still not guaranteed. This beast could move freely in a 15ft ceiling. The flight might give you a speed boost in kiting TDC so he can't just run you down.

Your answer isn't bad, just not necessarily as foolproof as you might think.

[Elkad]

Shoot it while flying (alter self)

Unload all of your Conjure Ice Beast with Ice Aura

Shoot while running away on a horse.


Just to remind people, according to the OP, the Beach scenario is a possible environment for this encounter, but it just as easily could take place in a dungeon, where flying might be more limited than you are thinking.

TDC has space of 10ft, reach of 10ft. I don't use the 3d rules often, but I believe that means TDC occupies or threatens up to 20ft vertical. Dungeons that contain large beasts will need large cavities to allow them to move, but a 20ft+ ceiling is still not guaranteed. This beast could move freely in a 15ft ceiling. The flight might give you a speed boost in kiting TDC so he can't just run you down.

Your answer isn't bad, just not necessarily as foolproof as you might think.

He did list the horse. If there isn't room to run, feeding the horse to TDC should buy you several rounds at least. Heck, it might even manage a couple points of damage before it dies.
Same with donkeys, mules, animal companions, the frenzybarb nobody liked anyway, etc.

In the absence of any other options, if one of the beatsticks doesn't volunteer to hold the bridge (feed the crab), I'm likely to volunteer him anyway via Suggestion, Daze, or similar.

[Pleh]

He did list the horse. If there isn't room to run, feeding the horse to TDC should buy you several rounds at least. Heck, it might even manage a couple points of damage before it dies.
Same with donkeys, mules, animal companions, the frenzybarb nobody liked anyway, etc.

In the absence of any other options, if one of the beatsticks doesn't volunteer to hold the bridge (feed the crab), I'm likely to volunteer him anyway via Suggestion, Daze, or similar.

Yes, but there's good precedent for not taking horses into dungeons. Even if TDC is in a space accomodating a Large creature, that doesn't mean the rest of the dungeon is equally accomodating.

Again, the answer of "use mount" isn't a bad answer, just more helpful in some scenarios than others, meaning it only gets partial credit in THIS thread.

[ericgrau]

okay so now I want to play a campaign of crazy adventurers that don't seek treasure but seek out weird monsters to kill, cook, and eat. Like one of those old timey Gentlemen's Society clubs that probably hunted and ate dudes.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/S/cmx-images-prod/Series/4268/4268._SX360_QL80_TTD_.jpg

[RoboEmperor]

Yes, but there's good precedent for not taking horses into dungeons. Even if TDC is in a space accomodating a Large creature, that doesn't mean the rest of the dungeon is equally accomodating.

Again, the answer of "use mount" isn't a bad answer, just more helpful in some scenarios than others, meaning it only gets partial credit in THIS thread.

There's always Alter Self->Dwarven Ancestor.

[Pleh]

Alter self has to be the same type as the caster's normal form. Dwarf Ancestor (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060704a&page=3) is a Native Outsider, not a humanoid. What ECL 3 character were you playing that counts as an outsider?

Also, Alter Self has HD cap equal to caster level, which in this case is 3. Dwarven Ancestor has 5HD.

[RoboEmperor]

Alter self has to be the same type as the caster's normal form. Dwarf Ancestor (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060704a&page=3) is a Native Outsider, not a humanoid. What ECL 3 character were you playing that counts as an outsider?

Also, Alter Self has HD cap equal to caster level, which in this case is 3. Dwarven Ancestor has 5HD.

Ravid instead of Dwarven Ancestor

Play as a Neraphim, Savage Progression Aasimar/Tiefling, or start with the Otherworldly feat. All of these are common races for anyone who wants to be a level 1 outsider..

[sleepyphoenixx]

What ECL 3 character were you playing that counts as an outsider?

Isn't that what Otherworldly is for?
There are definitely worse things to spend a feat on than really abusing Alter Self if your DM allows it.

[RaiKirah]

Isn't that what Otherworldly is for?
There are definitely worse things to spend a feat on than really abusing Alter Self if your DM allows it.

Yup! Also, I believe there's a sidebar in the book (celestial-attended birth maybe?) That lets any race qualify!

[Elkad]

Again, the answer of "use mount" isn't a bad answer, just more helpful in some scenarios than others, meaning it only gets partial credit in THIS thread.

Except the summoned mount disappears when it dies, which is a single round vs TDC.

[Telok]

When encountered in a dungeon TDC will have to squeeze through areas 5 to 9 feet wide reducing it to 1/2 speed and -4 to attacks and AC. Anything smaller than that requires and Escape Artist check at DC 30 which TDC can't make.

Thus in an indoor setting any normal sized hallway allows the party to escape or seriously even the odds. If the party can create any from of additional blockage that TDC can't or won't blindly smash through then the party can safely kill it at range.

[OgresAreCute]

When encountered in a dungeon TDC will have to squeeze through areas 5 to 9 feet wide reducing it to 1/2 speed and -4 to attacks and AC. Anything smaller than that requires and Escape Artist check at DC 30 which TDC can't make.

Thus in an indoor setting any normal sized hallway allows the party to escape or seriously even the odds. If the party can create any from of additional blockage that TDC can't or won't blindly smash through then the party can safely kill it at range.

Clearly you aren't accounting for the heavily railroaded encounter portcullis that drops behind you and the locked door in the other end of the room.

[sleepyphoenixx]

When encountered in a dungeon TDC will have to squeeze through areas 5 to 9 feet wide reducing it to 1/2 speed and -4 to attacks and AC. Anything smaller than that requires and Escape Artist check at DC 30 which TDC can't make.

Thus in an indoor setting any normal sized hallway allows the party to escape or seriously even the odds. If the party can create any from of additional blockage that TDC can't or won't blindly smash through then the party can safely kill it at range.

It would be pretty stupid to populate a dungeon with TDC when it's not built to accomodate it. And it wouldn't move in by itself either.
Also not all dungeons are made of narrow, cramped tunnels. Or build for medium creatures.


Clearly you aren't accounting for the heavily railroaded encounter portcullis that drops behind you and the locked door in the other end of the room.

That's just common sense, isn't it? If you're getting a tough melee brute as a guardian monster you'll put it somewhere that plays to its strengths instead of giving intruders narrow hallways and defensive chokepoints to easily kill it at range.

[Pleh]

Isn't that what Otherworldly is for?
There are definitely worse things to spend a feat on than really abusing Alter Self if your DM allows it.

I'm not claiming familiarity with every feat from every book. If it's legal, good on you, but it's a bit sloppy to suggest that "just alter self into an outsider" without also accounting for how you qualify. Not a failing grade, just dock a couple points for making everyone else read between the lines. Also lack of elegance: your solution only works for characters that bother with the Otherworldly feat.

I could have suggested that a Sneak Attacking Rogue would be enough to beat TDC, but I make a stronger case when I clarify that I'm referring to rogues with the Maiming Strike feat.


Except the summoned mount disappears when it dies, which is a single round vs TDC.

Pretty sure I said nothing about Summoned Mounts. Phantom Steed is a 3rd level spell anyway, so I dunno if there's any earlier summoned mounts.

SNA? I guess?


Clearly you aren't accounting for the heavily railroaded encounter portcullis that drops behind you and the locked door in the other end of the room.

Well, the idea of the OP is, "you know you'll have 4 encounters, 1 will be TDC, but you don't know what order or where they will occur, or when they will happen (except they'll all be sometime before the end of adventuring day)."

So portcullis is good to plan for, but not to depend on.

Just like the flying/mounted ideas. They're good, but you can get mashed if you depend on it too heavily (because these answers can be neutered by circumstances that are explicitly possible).

The challenge is to be as prepared as possible such that you can account for TDC in as many ways as possible. Be ready for running into them out of the gate, like if it SOMEHOW surprises you. Be ready if it waits til the very last encounter, when the party is low on adventure resources. Be ready if it's got home field advantage. Be ready if it's been employed as a component in a nasty dungeon encounter.

Answers that only cover SOME of the legal scenarios should only get partial credit.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'm not claiming familiarity with every feat from every book. If it's legal, good on you, but it's a bit sloppy to suggest that "just alter self into an outsider" without also accounting for how you qualify. Not a failing grade, just dock a couple points for making everyone else read between the lines. Also lack of elegance: your solution only works for characters that bother with the Otherworldly feat.

I could have suggested that a Sneak Attacking Rogue would be enough to beat TDC, but I make a stronger case when I clarify that I'm referring to rogues with the Maiming Strike feat.
You don't have to be familiar with every feat to know that turning into an outsider with Alter Self is possible.
That you took one of the options that allows you to do so is obviously implied if it's suggested.

And i'm not even the one who suggested it.


Pretty sure I said nothing about Summoned Mounts. Phantom Steed is a 3rd level spell anyway, so I dunno if there's any earlier summoned mounts.

SNA? I guess?
Mount is a core first level wizard spell. It summons a light horse or pony.

[Elkad]

Pretty sure I said nothing about Summoned Mounts. Phantom Steed is a 3rd level spell anyway, so I dunno if there's any earlier summoned mounts.

SNA? I guess?

I did assume you meant "use Mount (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mount.htm)", because it's generally so useful anyway.

2Hours/level beastie with a fair amount of hitpoints and Large size to plug up a hallway (Thus it's alternate name of Wall of Horse) generally works well, plus it's ability to help you run away and/or get those 83,000cp out of the dungeon makes it a great utility spell for any Wizard from L3 on.

If you'd said "use a mount", I would have assumed you meant the mundane kind.

[RoboEmperor]

I'm not claiming familiarity with every feat from every book. If it's legal, good on you, but it's a bit sloppy to suggest that "just alter self into an outsider" without also accounting for how you qualify. Not a failing grade, just dock a couple points for making everyone else read between the lines. Also lack of elegance: your solution only works for characters that bother with the Otherworldly feat.

There are tons of ways to be an outsider adventurer. Tons. Otherworldly is just one. Am I supposed to list every single playable outsider race whenever I mention alter self? Or should the reader interested in the method I suggested google ways of playing an outsider PC?

[Pleh]

You don't have to be familiar with every feat to know that turning into an outsider with Alter Self is possible.
That you took one of the options that allows you to do so is obviously implied if it's suggested.

Alter Self -> Dwarf Ancestor was suggested as well. That the speaker wishes to imply that it is allowed doesn't make it so.


Mount is a core first level wizard spell. It summons a light horse or pony.

My google fu failed me. "Summon steed" just did not turn that spell up as a result.


There are tons of ways to be an outsider adventurer. Tons. Otherworldly is just one. Am I supposed to list every single playable outsider race whenever I mention alter self? Or should the reader interested in the method I suggested google ways of playing an outsider PC?

How about listing your preferred method? Listing any of the many valid options is an easy way to clarify your proposals.