Multi-classing monk for power or fun?

[ToastyTobasco]

As many know, the capstone for Monk is resoundingly "Meh" and I was curious on people's opinions of MC'ing Monk for a dip into another class to either add flavor or expand their toolkit.

For those that played Monk, do you feel playing pure is more fun and/or beneficial?

For those theorycrafters: How much do you feel Monks lose in level dips (Say at level 8 or higher) versus gain in damage and versatility?

[MrStabby]

Depending on the sub-class your capstone may basically come at level 14. If you are playing a class with underwhelming top levels this gives you 6 levels to play with.

The obvious use of these is rogue - a class that adds to martial attacks but no overlap with extra attack.

Otherwise I would suggest a mix of other classes - 3 levels of ranger and 3 or rogue could be good. 4 levels of ranger and 2 of fighter might also be good (for gloomstalker + action surge for powerful first turn).

Casters are tougher to call- cleric is the obvious one due to casting stat. Unfortunately a lot of the spells just don't mesh that well with monks; druid is a little better. Some synergy as you will have con save proficiency but nothing great. I actually think that wizard or warlock might be better if you have an appropriately high casting stat - either through good roles or an unusual race choice or just because you chose to for RP reasons. There are a number of nice spells on these lists that don't need the casting stat to be high:shield, nystul's magic aura, see invisibility, sending haste... of course the value of these drops if someone else in the party has these covered. Monk 14, wizard 5, rogue 1 could be fun. Of course there is always Open Hand Monk 17, Divination Wizard 2 for force quivering palm save failures.

For fun... sorcerer is probably my favourite simply because there is so much good metamagic to use. By level 20 you would be picking up 6 sorcery points and casting up to level 3 spells. The awesome thing is that you can be doing so as a bonus action or subtly. I think quicken and subtle are the best here as a) you have awesome use of an action and dont want to sacrifice that for a low level spell, and b) you are able to dole out damage well enough anyway so empower is less useful, and c) you probably have min charisma so you don't want effects that need saves or attack rolls - so unlikely to be damage spells. Shadow sorcerer with quickened darkness that you can see through - punch people inside with advantage before they can leave. Quickened hold person is always a laugh on a martial character. I think the real sweet spot might be the divine soul though. Spells that are not worth sacrificing an action for suddenly become good when you only lose a bonus action and I would argue bless is amongst them.

[Foxhound438]

Personally I strongly agree that the capstone is pretty meh. I played a monk in a game that went all the way to 20, and by the end it really did turn into the 36 second adventuring day boss fight simulator, so even if my opinion on the ability was better I wouldn't be picking it up in that game. The rest of the class, especially empty body, is pretty okay in my opinion though. That time I went for 1 level of rogue at the very end, as it's a simple way to get an extra d6 assuming you're using a weapon with finesse. Personally I wouldn't dip more than 2 levels in a second class if I was being primarily a monk.

[qube]

Depending on the sub-class your capstone may basically come at level 14. If you are playing a class with underwhelming top levels this gives you 6 levels to play with.I actually would go as far as monk 17.
With empty body, enemies that can't see through invisibility have (practically) permanent disadvantage, you have advantage over them, and you got resistance to all damage (except force, which is quite uncommon).

for the next 3 levels ... err ... things that increase your damage/attack seems normal. With flurry (4 or 5* attacks) and advantage**, something like hunters mark (vengence paladin or ranger), or hex (warlock) goes a long way.
(edit: rogue's sneak attack is IMHO meh for a monk, as that only applies once per turn - so at most twice if you combine it with opportunist)

In fact, monk(way of the shadow) 17 / warlock(hexblade) 3 seems like a very powerful & flavorable combination (anime ninja!), even without decent charisma, giving you
flurry of blows, empty body, opportunist = 4-5 attacks with advantage while powerful defenses and mobility
hex (+1d6 damage on every blow (or +2d6 on crit) ) & hexblade curse (proficiency to damage, crit on 19-20 & temp hp on kill vs 1 target per short rest)
2 cantrips (which you can cast just as good as any lvl 20 character), 2 eldritch invocations (incl. Devil's Sight - because way of shadow gives you access to darkness), and a pact boon (the uses of a familiar can IMHO not be stated enough)


*: 5 if drunken master or way of shadow's opportunist)
**: higher hit chance, and also higher crit chance - which doubles extra damage dice of spells as well

[djreynolds]

As many know, the capstone for Monk is resoundingly "Meh" and I was curious on people's opinions of MC'ing Monk for a dip into another class to either add flavor or expand their toolkit.

For those that played Monk, do you feel playing pure is more fun and/or beneficial?

For those theorycrafters: How much do you feel Monks lose in level dips (Say at level 8 or higher) versus gain in damage and versatility?

What do you want?

I had a monk and took some ranger (hunter) grabbed hunter's mark, CS, and archery style. Having a longbow really opens up who you can hit on the battlefield. IMO ranger and monk are very similar skirmisher types this just expands on it.

Cleric and druid offer wisdom based spells and cantrips, but remember a longbow/shortbow are pretty good ranged attacks for a non-sun soul monk with greater distance.

If you have a 13 in strength, some barbarian offers rage for a 2xaday resistance versus tougher foes

Magic initiate could be grabbed for hex, without needing a 13 in charisma but if you have it, a level of warlock is cheaper

Mobile is a sweet feat.

[CTurbo]

I agree with Ranger 3. ESPECIALLY if you can use the US Revised Ranger. Favored enemy damage stacks up quickly on a Monk with 4 attacks. Hunter's Mark too. If you Hunter's Mark a BBEG that is also your favored enemy, that's 4d6+8 extra damage on a Flurry.

Gloom Stalker 3 is great for any Monk, but especially the Shadow Monk. Hunter is great for any Monk too. You can easily pull off Colossus Slayer every turn and Horde Breaker is also great for Monks.

1-3 Cleric levels can get you some really good stuff too including healing, utility, and a really good spell to concentrate on. You're going to have the Wis to make a great Cleric already. I'd go Tempest or Light

A couple Druid levels would help with utility and scouting.

A few Rogue levels will add extra damage, give you some expertise, and Cunning Action pretty much frees up Ki to be used with Flurry of Blows all the time. I like a Monk/Scout.

I've seen a Battle Master/Monk wreak havoc on the battlefield with maneuvers. As with Ranger, either Archery or Dueling Style is good.

[Wisefool]

I actually would go as far as monk 17.
With empty body, enemies that can't see through invisibility have (practically) permanent disadvantage, you have advantage over them, and you got resistance to all damage (except force, which is quite uncommon).

One problem, Empty Body comes online at Monk 18, so you only get a 2-level dip if you want it.


OP- My monk has a single level cleric dip that I took at 3rd level. It helped my character's background, and has given him a wide range of utility. So to answer your question, I did it for both fun and power. Not sure if I'll take the 2nd level of Light Cleric though. Its Channel Divinity is decent, but I do not want to be two levels behind on my monk's progression. Now had the 2nd level given me more than just one extra 1st level spell slot, it might have been more tempting.

[Citan]

As many know, the capstone for Monk is resoundingly "Meh" and I was curious on people's opinions of MC'ing Monk for a dip into another class to either add flavor or expand their toolkit.

For those that played Monk, do you feel playing pure is more fun and/or beneficial?

For those theorycrafters: How much do you feel Monks lose in level dips (Say at level 8 or higher) versus gain in damage and versatility?
Hi!
First, I'll have to state that I strongly disagree with the premise. ;)
Monk's capstones basically amount to "at least Empty Body in every fight" or "great saves/Dodge whatever happens in that fight" or "one good attempt at Stunning Strike against powerful enemy" for any Monk or...
- Flying Monk every fight (4E)
- Opening Fireball every fight (4E)
- One potential insta-kill (Quivering Palm) every fight (Open Hand)
- "Perma" peaking ability by using the "+3 on rolls" ability (Kensei)

Because, very simply, when you get that, if you end any fight with 3 ki or less, you can just spend them "artificially" if needed, or anticipate a bit and blow them in a nova last turn.

Of course, actual value of this varies wildly: if your group plays in "5mn adventuring day" mode or if your group gets lots of way to secure short rests this is a very lackluster benefit.
In gritty campaigns though? This is a real ifechanger. :)

This aside, as far as multiclassing for fun or power goes, basically anything based on WIS or DEX is great. Consersely, even Barbarian or Sorcerer can really give you much too. It will just require at least 3 levels, whereas the other classes are great from level 1 to level X.

When you want great utility by going caster, I'm especially fond of getting a "level 3 caster" (4*1st level slots, 2*2nd) by either (Tempest/Trickery/Knowledge) Cleric 3, Land Druid 3, or a particular case of Life Cleric 1 / Shepherd|Moon Druid 2.

More generally, if you want tips/suggestions on Monk multiclass, I suggest looking in those threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1613456), in which me and others made detailed examples. :)

[qube]

Hi!
First, I'll have to state that I strongly disagree with the premise. ;)
Monk's capstones basically amount to "at least Empty Body in every fight" or ...

Because, very simply, when you get that, if you end any fight with 3 ki or less, you can just spend them "artificially" if needed, or anticipate a bit and blow them in a nova last turn.I'll have to disagree with you on that. Because you're not describing some sort of actual boost, but a poor resource management savety net. Because, consider the situation: you just went into a fight where it was somehow normal & required that you had to burn more then 16 ki points ... and then, without a short rest, you get another hard fight ??? No, of course not. Either the next fight is going to be much easier, or you got a DM who's simply out to get ya (in which case, no ability can save you).

Even if you want to argue a gauntlet without short rests, it's gonna be hard-hard-hard-hard-very hard. The strategy of burning up your 20 ki points on anything but the final encounter will leave you gimped at the boss fight with only 4.

Even if you argue gritty campagins - it's objectively a horrible ability, because it's only usefull if you expended all your ki. Gritty campagins are not the type of campaign where you should blow through your stash of 20, cause then you get 4 freebies. They are the type you want to keep your stash as big as possible, for when you encounter the real trouble.

In the end, It's only common sense that after your hardest encounter, you take a rest (if nothing else to heal up, loot, take an out-game break, etc...) -- yet the monks ability requires (or, works best) if it 'd be the other way around.

[Citan]

Plz note that I never said that you had to be stupid and blow away all resources just because that feature exists.

I said that in gritty campaigns, you may be tired out before a chance of getting a short rest.
I said that sometimes "in general", you blow a large part of resources on what you expect to be the last of last encounters before a short or long rest, but trouble happens and you get another encounter.
Or, you just had to blow everything because sh** happened and as a consequence you being conservative would weigh a much bigger risk on party overall, even though you planned on using as little as possible when starting the fight.

This feature is great because it still gives you fuel to run on in all situations where you would otherwise be "a plain martial with just better saves and mobility than a Fighter".
Whether that situation occurs often is a YMMV thing by essence. Does not make the feature less good.


I'll have to disagree with you on that. Because you're not describing some sort of actual boost, but a poor resource management savety net.
...
In the end, It's only common sense that after your hardest encounter, you take a rest (if nothing else to heal up, loot, take an out-game break, etc...) -- yet the monks ability requires (or, works best) if it 'd be the other way around.

You apparently make the assumption that a short rest is always obtainable when really necessary.
Well, it's not true at all.
It can be if you happen to have a Wizard in party, or another high-level caster that may drop a Magnificent Mansion, or a Teleportation Circle (is in party, still alive, still has a slot for that).
Otherwise? At level 20, I'd expect any decent enemy to have hordes, traps, magic blockers, magic detectors and other things to prevent you from taking short rests inside their lair or surroundings.
Does not mean it's impossible obviously, just much harder.
There is also the problem of time: one hour is a very long time in active conflict. Gives you AND enemies time to take breath, regroup and gather resources. Usually, in an enemy's lair, this kind of wait is more beneficial to the enemy, unless you use it to spawn/bring allies of your own through a clever scheme.
Catnap is a top spell for that, since takes only 10 mn, but only affects once per long rest.

Finally, there is the question of comparative benefit of 4 Ki on Initiative compared to whatever a single level dip could bring.
Considering capstone means, at the very least, "1-mn concentration free resistance to all damage + invisibility EVERY encounter"...
- Because if you still had decent amount of ki, there is little reason to not use it unless encounter is not difficult, but then you won't spend any amount of ki in the first place).
- And if you had no ki left, there you get some back at Initiative.
I really don't see how any level 1 feature could beat that. And it's a "gritty multiclass lover" saying that. :)

The only good reasons to renounce capstone are simply that...
- You don't care about end-game mechanical optimization in spite of resource management risks (you'd rather have early-game benefits or more versatility, like Cleric/Druid dip).
- Or count on never encountering resource management problems because of party composition (so feature would be useless).
- Or bet on never getting up to 20 in the first place (so no need to question).
- Or you never cared about high level in the first place because you'd rather make a cool dual-class (or even tri-class) gish, that would be lesser than pure Monk in some ways, but better in other ways. :)

[ToastyTobasco]

Plz note that I never said that you had to be stupid and blow away all resources just because that feature exists.

I said that in gritty campaigns, you may be tired out before a chance of getting a short rest.
I said that sometimes "in general", you blow a large part of resources on what you expect to be the last of last encounters before a short or long rest, but trouble happens and you get another encounter.
Or, you just had to blow everything because sh** happened and as a consequence you being conservative would weigh a much bigger risk on party overall, even though you planned on using as little as possible when starting the fight.

This feature is great because it still gives you fuel to run on in all situations where you would otherwise be "a plain martial with just better saves and mobility than a Fighter".
Whether that situation occurs often is a YMMV thing by essence. Does not make the feature less good.



You apparently make the assumption that a short rest is always obtainable when really necessary.
Well, it's not true at all.
It can be if you happen to have a Wizard in party, or another high-level caster that may drop a Magnificent Mansion, or a Teleportation Circle (is in party, still alive, still has a slot for that).
Otherwise? At level 20, I'd expect any decent enemy to have hordes, traps, magic blockers, magic detectors and other things to prevent you from taking short rests inside their lair or surroundings.
Does not mean it's impossible obviously, just much harder.
There is also the problem of time: one hour is a very long time in active conflict. Gives you AND enemies time to take breath, regroup and gather resources. Usually, in an enemy's lair, this kind of wait is more beneficial to the enemy, unless you use it to spawn/bring allies of your own through a clever scheme.
Catnap is a top spell for that, since takes only 10 mn, but only affects once per long rest.

Finally, there is the question of comparative benefit of 4 Ki on Initiative compared to whatever a single level dip could bring.
Considering capstone means, at the very least, "1-mn concentration free resistance to all damage + invisibility EVERY encounter"...
- Because if you still had decent amount of ki, there is little reason to not use it unless encounter is not difficult, but then you won't spend any amount of ki in the first place).
- And if you had no ki left, there you get some back at Initiative.
I really don't see how any level 1 feature could beat that. And it's a "gritty multiclass lover" saying that. :)

The only good reasons to renounce capstone are simply that...
- You don't care about end-game mechanical optimization in spite of resource management risks (you'd rather have early-game benefits or more versatility, like Cleric/Druid dip).
- Or count on never encountering resource management problems because of party composition (so feature would be useless).
- Or bet on never getting up to 20 in the first place (so no need to question).
- Or you never cared about high level in the first place because you'd rather make a cool dual-class (or even tri-class) gish, that would be lesser than pure Monk in some ways, but better in other ways. :)


Absolutely love all the discussion here. My reasons for MC'ing would be adding a little fun flavor to the character or add damage like Hunters Mark. All of mine is theory crafting since a lot of things can be solved with working with the DM for something like a magic item (If they are willing) to get something to add some fun.

This kind of stuff is exactly why I asked. I love seeing passionate arguments from both sides instead of everyone just echoing MC everything

[qube]

You apparently make the assumption that a short rest is always obtainable when really necessary.
Well, it's not true at all.Then appearances are wrong, for I do not. D&D is balanced toward 8 encounters, 3 shorts rests, and ~20 - 30 rounds of combat.

I'm assuming the DM isn't a random generator - and there's a logical flow behind the story. He might not follow the benchmark to the letter - but I'm not going to say Ability X is good because you can have a DM that "coincidently" breaks all norms & default behaviours that limit Ability X. Because by the same logic, each and every ability can be considered virtually useless.

"+50 on damage"? But what if you have a DM that doesn't do combat?


I said that sometimes "in general", you blow a large part of resources on what you expect to be the last of last encounters before a short or long rest, but trouble happens and you get another encounter. Indeed. "another encounter" ... But define that encounter. Not how you (and others) haven't had time to heal either, and other party members (like the fighter) won't have gotten their sort rest abilities back either ... so do you really think it's going to be a hard encounter? Will it be an encounter where those 4 ki points will have a significant impact?

... because as far as capstone abilities are, "there's a chance, that in some senarios it might have an impact", is IMHO a horribly low standard. Sure it's not nothing - but neither is multiclassing.

I make the assumption that after a heavy combat (a.k.a. one where it's logical you spend all your ki points) the DM doesn't throw another heavy encounter against you.

If there's a method to the madness, you're not going to encounter Tiamat after Lolth without even a short rest. Oppositely, for example, you're going to take out 2 mook guards, before entering the throne room (easy followed by hard) or finish those two guards after killing their king.


- You don't care about end-game mechanical optimization in spite of resource management risksyou bring up another good reason why it's a bad ability: you JUST spend 19 levels of monk, learning how to deal with these resource management risks.
And now, magically, they become a problem that you need an ability to compensate for?

... yeah, if that happens - refer to the below - where the DM is tailing his encounters to your abilities.


Otherwise? At level 20, I'd expect any decent enemy to have hordes, traps, magic blockers, magic detectors and other things to prevent you from taking short rests inside their lair or surroundings.
Does not mean it's impossible obviously, just much harder.
There is also the problem of time: one hour is a very long time in active conflict. Gives you AND enemies time to take breath, regroup and gather resources. Usually, in an enemy's lair, this kind of wait is more beneficial to the enemy, unless you use it to spawn/bring allies of your own through a clever scheme.very valid reasons with only 1 humongous problem: you'd pretty much kill a party that doesn't have members with those recharge abilities. Or have a lvl 19 monk, because I don't see you giving a reason why the mentioned justifications would only apply to lvl 20 parties ?

... so either the DM is litterly out to kill you anyway (no ability isn't going to save you anyway), or your DM customized his encounter to the players in the party (which you can argue could be considered good DMming (and I would in fact agree with you on that) - but it also means that the ability doesn't have a special merrit* )

*: like it's silly to argue it's a great boon to have a rogue in the party for when you encounter traps ... if you only encounter traps if you have a rogue. All abilities (be them capstone or otherwise) have the exact same merrit: "useful because the DM makes 'm useful"



- Because if you still had decent amount of ki, there is little reason to not use it unless encounter is not difficultcould you elaborate? because it seems to me, you either argue
you agree with me that after a decent encounter you won't be facing another one before a short rest.
OR
after a decent encounter you can just as well have another decent encounter ... but it's no biggy you have only 4 ki points to spend.
... which would begs the question, why you then just not spend 4 ki points in the initial decent encounter (or, heck, 14 ki points, leaving a lvl 18 monk / lvl 2 X with the same amount of ki points for the following that encounter).



Finally, there is the question of comparative benefit of 4 Ki on Initiative compared to whatever a single level dip could bring.
Considering capstone means, at the very least, "1-mn concentration free resistance to all damage + invisibility EVERY encounter"...gargantuan caveat obviously being, that more then half the encounters you already HAVE that. (assuming the level of play DnD is balanced it)

I would say, that the capstone gives you "1-mn concentration free resistance to all damage + invisibility in encounters, after heavy encounter, before a short rest".
Which, while technically the same, sheds a very different light on the matter; as it only looks to what it gives, opposite to including what you already have.

Why? Because a multiclass ability will actually give you something new, something you can use in ALL the encounters (if it's a permanent ability) - there's going to be little to no overlap (assuming you multiclass into decent classes, and not specifically look for overlap)


I really don't see how any level 1 feature could beat that. And it's a "gritty multiclass lover" saying that. :)Perhaps because you get an entire level worth of abilities. Like Hexblade 1. (hex & hexblade curse increase your damage per attack with +1d6+6 & 19-20 crit)

And considering it also required to take monk 19 before you can take monk 20. You can want to exchange your 5th ability score improvement as well, together with that cap-stone abilty. Top of my head,
fighter
fighting style (continuous bonus)
small second wind (& 2 bonus hp for larger hit die) (short rest)
action surge (short rest)
warlock (hexblade)
+1d6 on all damage (2 hexes, with the option of other spells) (short rest)
2 cantrips (cast at lvl 20, as cantrips do) (alternative option to attacking, or out of combat versatility)
+6 damage, 19-20 crit (hexblade curse) (1 enemy per short rest)
2 evocations (objectively better then 1 feat)

[sophontteks]

The capstone is a weak reason to multiclass. You don't wanna build towards the hypothetical end game you may never see.

The cost of multiclassing is from delaying your progression. Monks have amazing progression. I wouldn't want to delay their abilities by even one level.

Can't mc before level 5. Need that extra attack and stunning strike ASAP.

Can't mc before 14. Purity of soul allows profeciency in all saving throws and allows me to reroll them for 1 ki. Thats too good to delay.

Can't before 18. Resistant to all damage and invisible for 4 ki is too good.

And monk weapon damage is linked to monk levels too along with their bonus movement and ki generation. Its just too costly.

[qube]

The capstone is a weak reason to multiclass. You don't wanna build towards the hypothetical end game you may never see.
...
Can't before 18. Resistant to all damage and invisible for 4 ki is too goodtrue - but what about after lvl 18?

[sophontteks]

true - but what about after lvl 18?
19 is an ASI/ featwhich can be tempting, but its certainly a viable time to MC. Modt campaigns would be over before this point, but if you make it, hell yeah!

[sambojin]

Monk (whichever) 6/Fighter (BM) 3/ Druid (Land/Grasslands or Moon) 11 is a fairly nice progression. Yes, take them in that order.

First you feel monk'y and start stunning stuff with punches/swords, then you start punching/stabbing stuff in funny ways (really quickly sometimes) or can use a bow a bit to mess with people as well, then you just start becoming stupidly good at other stuff (including summoning) but in a way that doesn't feel un-monk'y.

Want haste and invis? Go Land/Grasslands. You'll have a silly amount of resources with your ki, your superiority dice, an AS per short rest and your spell Regen (hey, six spell levels worth of slots is still 1-2 encounters worth a day, on top of your normal spell slots). Still get normal flying wildshape to CR1, so there's shenanigans to be had.

Moon just gets you more wildshape. Which you don't really need, but you will get elemental forms as well. Which is more 4E than 4E. So's even a little bit of druid magic, and you've got quite a bit.


You'll be fairly ASI short due to the levelling, but you do nab the potentially useful 6th level spells. Honestly, Land/Grasslands is friggen amazing for Haste, and you'll never really run out of slots to cast it. When is another attack and +2AC not handy? Well, maybe when a battlefield stacked with summons is better. But anyway, it just keeps you getting more Monk'y, but with all kinds of other crap to do as well. Stealth monk? Yep. Hitty monk? Yep. Nature monk? All good. A decent whack of druid in the end of any monk build works perfectly, and 2-3 of fighter works with any dex'y melee build anyway. Your Ki? It's good Ki.

[sambojin]

Honestly, if you just want to make it easy:
Monk (whatever) 6, Druid (Land/Grasslands) 14.

Because, why hold off on extra attack x3 if you can just have f'tonnes of spell slots and have it by level 11 anyway? Because Haste. And martial arts and flurries. A bit of invis wouldn't hurt.

What, too soon?

(you know you're just going to use your free spell slots on invis to sucker punch people anyway. Ride the train that is. Then haste that thing. Monks are awesome! Until they're kind of a waste of levels. Meh. Still probably kinda cooler than a wizard. Maybe. Huh...)

[samcifer]

If you want more damage, I have two ideas, but both require that you have at least 13 Charisma and the second also requires 13+ Strength.

The first is 1 level of hexblade for the Hexblade Curse. That'll be up to +6 dmg. per hit and improved crit range.

The second is at least a three level (probably at least 4) investment in Paladin to add smite dmg. to your attacks. It's a limited resource, but you could do a pretty strong nova turn that way.

I'm too groggy from cold medicine today to come up with GOOD ideas. :P

[Citan]

Then appearances are wrong, for I do not. D&D is balanced toward 8 encounters, 3 shorts rests, and ~20 - 30 rounds of combat.

Sadly the appearances are true.
First, disclaimer, you are talking to a guy that turned multiclass up and down. So, sorry, there is really little you can learn to me here (yeah, this is bragging, but I totally stand by it ^^).

By the way on that point...

Your suggestions:

fighter
fighting style (continuous bonus)
small second wind (& 2 bonus hp for larger hit die) (short rest)
action surge (short rest)
warlock (hexblade)
+1d6 on all damage (2 hexes, with the option of other spells) (short rest)
2 cantrips (cast at lvl 20, as cantrips do) (alternative option to attacking, or out of combat versatility)
+6 damage, 19-20 crit (hexblade curse) (1 enemy per short rest)
2 evocations (objectively better then 1 feat)
Fighter
1. Fighting Style is overall useless, except particular case of Kensei dedicating to archery.
Otherwise, Dueling amounts to +4 at most per turn, Archery will be used too rarely, others are simply inapplicable. It's a nice bit of added damage at low levels, but will very quicly fall off at higher levels. Because 5e is designed as such, with non-linear enemy HP scaling.

2. Second Wind is completely useless: it's a self bonus action (so you can't heal yourself "back up"), healing you for such a little amount at the time you get it (average 6-7), even if you decided to take it as early as possible (so after Monk 6-7)... That it will nearly never make a "preemptive difference" between getting downed or getting through oncoming's enemy round.
(Reminder: even CR 5 enemies have average damage on single attack above 10 CR 10+ creatures have usually multiattack with damage scaling up to an average 30 per attack for "usual high-level" creatures).

3. Action Surge means you are trading two ki points per short rest (which can be used in various ways, including using archetype abilities or just making more attempt of Stunning Strike) just for the ability to make a bigger nova and possibly stun attempt once per short rest. It's not a bad deal. Is it a great deal though, or simply "good enough"? I really don't think so, considering by how much it delays your access to higher Monk features.
With that said, for some specific builds using some archetypes its values is indeed much better.
For example, if a Shadow or 4E has an habit of opening big fights with a specific spell, it's a way to get the opener and still get a full turn. For those, this is a good enough deal, possibly even worth taking as early as "just after getting that spell" even if it means delaying powerful features. After all, they decided to make this tactic their signature move. :)
We could also look at Long Death: he could Dash as bonus action to get straight in the middle of enemies without any friends around, "free Fear" as an action, then depending on result either try another Fear, try stunning someone or Dashing back.
The only case where it's really a *great* building decision though, is for a level 18 Open Hand Monk who decides to trade one feat and capstone for a "single-turn insta-kill" attempt every short rest. *This* is indeed a fearsome perspective (for his enemies ^^).

Warlock
Considering we were having a discussion "in general" -meaning any standard build with point-buy/standard array-, suggesting Warlock is ridiculous: don't forget the multiclass requirement. Pumping a 13 CHA just for it would be gimping yourself hard, unless you decide to spend Ki solely on Dodge/Dash/Stunning Strike, which is very possible, but then you're not a Monk, you just borrowed specific features of Monk to tackle on a -Blade?- Hexblade Warlock.
Of course, if you rolled stats and happened to get a 12-13 somewhere while still having at least 16 in all three important stats (DEX/WIS/CON), knock yourself out. :)

But on your list...
1. CHA on weapon is self-gimping.
2. Proficiencies are self-gimping (especially at high level).
3. Offensive cantrips are useless, apart from Booming Blade or GreenFlame Blade. But even those two would be a weak benefit considering it prevents any Monk ability except Stunning Strike, except possibly for Kensei which really revolves around its main weapon).
4. Utility cantrips could be grabbed in easier ways (Arcane Cleric, Magic Initiate,
5. Hex is a nice spell to have because also usable out of combat, but not nice enough to make such a harsh multiclass. If you want spells to help damage, War Cleric (Divine Favor) is here, along with a dozen other spells, of which you can have at least 4 prepared at all times. Or simply Bless, from any Cleric. And for 2 levels of Cleric, you also get nifty Channel Divinities that are short rest.
6. 2 Invocations are objectively NOT better than one feat, it's a 100% YMMV thing: some Invocations are not "reproductible", and may have high value for someone because of added creativity (like free Disguise Self) or because that someone is the niche (albeit powerful and often quoted here) Shadow Monk + Devil's Sight. Others are easily replicated (Detect Magic -> You can cope casting it as a ritual with Ritual Caster. Extra skills -> Skilled feat or 2 levels in Knowledge Cleric).
7. +6 (and improved critical) is only against one enemy.

Honestly, for one level, Warlock is mostly the worst choice ever for a Monk, again unless good rolled stats taking care of multiclass requirements, with a tie for the worst with Fighter although this one has no multiclass problem.
Even Sorcerer is better than both: at least you can get "free Mage Armor" and 4 utility cantrips.
Or Wizard: at least you can poach as many 1st level spells as you can find, and ritual cast them when possible, without limit.

Even for two levels, unless there is specific build that needs features only Warlock gets (read: the Devil's Sight Shadow), it's not worth it: Cleric or Druid bring you much better versatility, including offensive power you can actually use.
Fighter as stated can be good if you have a specific use for it planned, Rogue is like Mobile*100 sparing you loads of Ki per day, Barbarian would make you stupidly good at laughing in the face of AOEs and pretty good at Shoving in spite of low STR, Diviner Wizard could help you predict successful Stuns when it really counts, Bards would bring healing and half-proficiency in everything for versatility, etc...



Now on to your points...
"Not how you (and others) haven't had time to heal either, and other party members (like the fighter) won't have gotten their sort rest abilities back either ... so do you really think it's going to be a hard encounter? Will it be an encounter where those 4 ki points will have a significant impact?"

"You JUST spend 19 levels of monk, learning how to deal with these resource management risks.
And now, magically, they become a problem that you need an ability to compensate for?"

"I make the assumption that after a heavy combat (a.k.a. one where it's logical you spend all your ki points) the DM doesn't throw another heavy encounter against you. "

THIS is your own flaw in reasoning.
You make the assumption that everything goes the best way for your party, or that DM will make it so.
That is untrue. Sh** happens in fights. Evenmore so in unbalanced parties (no fullcaster or only one) against high-level enemies.
Encounters that DM planified as "hard" at most result in a nearly TPK because of bad tactics from players during encounter itself, or hastiness to get into fight instead of getting info and planning a global strategy, or imbalanced luck on one side, or any combination of previous at various degrees.
If the DM wants to stay true to the world, and players were in an enemy dungeon or under time pressure, he won't be doing any favor "just because last fight was harder than planned".

By the way...
" So either the DM is litterly out to kill you anyway (no ability isn't going to save you anyway), or your DM customized his encounter to the players in the party (which you can argue could be considered good DMming (and I would in fact agree with you on that) - but it also means that the ability doesn't have a special merrit* )"

This is a sad thing to read. You basically make it like DM is only binary: positivist or antagonistic.
Did you never consider that a DM could simply let the world he, and players, created and make evolve, decide for him?
That's something many authors will tell you about: after some (long ;)) time writing about characters, actively thinking about how to design them, make them speak and act, develop an original personality, comes a time when those characters have become so "thick" that it's like they get their own life, how they behave and evolve being as natural for author as if they were actual people afterwards.
It's the same with roleplaying, at least in custom worlds: when you developed something "concrete" enough, with factions having each their own goals, influences and powers, what happens comes naturally.
There is no "hey, I should find a way to let players rest".
It's "party managed to beat first group of enemies, but couldn't prevent word of their arrival get out. => Faction A takes this and that measures to block/slow/trap them."

I mean, how a DM "should" manage obviously depends on everyone's expectations around the table.
If expectations are just "leisure adventuring", then really any character, as unoptimized as may be, would be equally fine, so our whole discussion is completely pointless in the first place: make as crazy a multiclass as you want, you'll still survive and get glorious.

But if expectations are "live another life in another world", with all consequences attached, then you have to be prepared to get adventuring days that make you cry, whether or not it was planned, and whether you're a player... Or the DM (confer some stories around here on how something carefully planned by DM was blasted away because of sheer power or craftiness).
And this kind of expectation is the one I get the most around me. :)

EDIT:
Although it's 4e time, quick story illustrating how things don't go as planned -true story-: I -crazy multiclass Paladin/Wizard/Bard- and a friend -plain Rogue- created a 2-man, low-level party. DM added a ~DMPC who couldn't speak and mostly just rushed into enemies when there was a fight. He followed an official quest that was balanced for this party (level 1-3, 3+ party).
We nearly got TPK on the first three encounters, which were supposedly easy. In 4e system, with encounter powers to boot (meaning I could use some AOE in every fight... But I had crappy rolls all along).
Then we faced a young dragon, got a series of lucky rolls while DM got some unlucky, and basically gangbanged him in a corner of a room. While this was supposed to be the big, epic, life-or-death situation, with low-or-maybe-not-that-low possibility of TPK.
And another, in other system and setting: 2-man spacemen exploring a lone, abandoned station with death everywhere (basically the Nostromo team except with already adult Alien, in worse version). I played the "Alien". DM planned on players dying in the end because I was supposedly überpowerful. But I missed all important rolls (especially attacks). They succeeded on all important rolls (especially detecting me in time to avoid surprise). Result? They actually killed the beast, and "only" lost a few teeth and bits of limbs in the process.
>>> When everyone agrees that DM lets the reins to the dice while still trying to make NPC act as logically to their identity as possible, it's extremely hard to predict the landscape of end day.

[qube]

First, disclaimer, you are talking to a guy that turned multiclass up and down. So, sorry, there is really little you can learn to me here (yeah, this is bragging, but I totally stand by it ^^). if you want to take that stance, don't do stupid things and call effective boosts useless, just because you don't like 'm.

Take for instance the hp boost from fighter. Second wind + fighter 2 hd amounts to an average of 31 hp per day (avr 27 SW, +2 hp, and +2 from HD). Sure, if you only look at it from a single boost it doesn't amount to much - but considering it's a repeated boost, it's almost equivalent to a feat - and getting there when you get an above average amount of short rests.
... and considering the synergy with resistance, you can effectively double it's efficiency.

When you argue with such bias that you call the equivalent 1.5 - 2 feats "completely useless" - you effectively nuke any credibility to be someone we can learn from.

Likewise, your discredit of the hexblade is just ... beyond words.(yes, curse is only against 1 target ... which is only a humongous boost in every encounter with a biggy (or even 2, where you rip one of them to shreds quite fast). Yes you can get cantrips with feats - which is not even a discredit but an acknowledgement it's a boost; and yes 2 invocations are objectively better then a feat considering (a) a feat is the equivalent worth of 3 skills when a single evocation the equivalent of 2 and (b) you've already have gotten tons of feats, while no other invocations. Being different is not a decent agument: Powerword Kill is objectively stronger then darkness - trying to contradict that is trying to score a debate win - and I ain't playing that game)


-----
Other then that, your lack of actually adressing the points I made is dully noted.

When you paint situations of heavy encounters without short rests, where those 4 points would be essentail
how do non-monk characters (characters like tanks, who require healing after a heavy encounter) survive them
how do characters whithout non-short-rest recoverey survive them
how did your lvl 19 monk survive them?
... At which point I can only HOPE you understand how the only way it's actually a powerful ability if your DM forces you, or you force yourself, in situations where it is.

When you say things like "This is a sad thing to read. You basically make it like DM is only binary: positivist or antagonistic. Did you never consider that a DM could simply let the world he" It ABSOLUTELY shows you blatently ignored my points - because if that were the case, it's still either you or your DM has put you in a situation where you'd be screwed if you didn't have that ability.
in case it was the DM - then the ability has no merrit, for the DM adapts his story to you
in case it was you - the ability has no merrit, because the encounter would also be doable without that ability

And when you EVER come in the situation where you were so out of luck it's ONLY the dice - and not your choice - that determined the situation - with a DM who absolutely refuses to interfere -.... and it conicidently is in a situation your are ABSOLUTELY unable to take a short rest ... yeah, that's SO anecdotal you shouldn't balance abilities around that.

[Mortis_Elrod]

The capstone is a weak reason to multiclass. You don't wanna build towards the hypothetical end game you may never see.

The cost of multiclassing is from delaying your progression. Monks have amazing progression. I wouldn't want to delay their abilities by even one level.

Can't mc before level 5. Need that extra attack and stunning strike ASAP.

Can't mc before 14. Purity of soul allows profeciency in all saving throws and allows me to reroll them for 1 ki. Thats too good to delay.

Can't before 18. Resistant to all damage and invisible for 4 ki is too good.

And monk weapon damage is linked to monk levels too along with their bonus movement and ki generation. Its just too costly.

I agree that monks have good progression. But don’t agree with some of these assessments.

You can certainly multiclass before 5. Unless you want to spend ki all day you have another attack with your bonus action. There are other classes that are gonna add to the monk as well, in either improving on what they can do or giving them something they can’t.

14+ is situational sometimes you reach that level and the campaign ends before you get to enjoy it. So in a 14> campaign it’s definitely reasonable to MC.

Gloomstalker 3 / Shadow monk X comes to mind. Works at 5 fairly well. Rogue 2/Monk X works. Even Fighter/Monk works.

[Ebon]

I'm curious of your opinion on two other monk builds. The first would be a Sharpshooter Kensai Monk, which I know isn't as optimal without the Archery Fighting Skill, but how detrimental is it? And would this be reason enough to multi-class in Fighter or Ranger? Hunter's Mark seems really good on a Monk.

The second I found with an interesting twist. There has been little talk of the armored monk, and I had been fooling around with the idea of taking a couple levels of Fighter to get the con saves and I noticed something about armor interactions. Even though many monk abilities get turned off (like speed and ability to do better unarmored attacks) most of the sub-class abilities still remain. The Sun soul Monk's 3rd level power copies many of Flurries benefits, can be used at range, and can be used in armor with a shield.

Would a Sun soul in armor with a shield be worthy of a multi-class?

[sophontteks]

Would a Sun soul in armor with a shield be worthy of a multi-class?
The attack is dex based which pretty much kills this.

I mean, you could do it, but I think its sacrificing an awful lot for very little.

[samcifer]

Agreed. Martial Arts and unarmored movement both require a lack of armor or shield. You'd lose the extra moment as well as the bonus action attack(s) which make up some of the monk's core mechanics.

[Foxhound438]

Considering capstone means, at the very least, "1-mn concentration free resistance to all damage + invisibility EVERY encounter"...
- Because if you still had decent amount of ki, there is little reason to not use it unless encounter is not difficult, but then you won't spend any amount of ki in the first place).
- And if you had no ki left, there you get some back at Initiative.
I really don't see how any level 1 feature could beat that. And it's a "gritty multiclass lover" saying that. :)


you say that as if the capstone is the only way that empty body can be used at all. I've played high level monks, and past like level 15 i've never had a situation where I ended up with less than 4 ki and couldn't even get a short rest. As a matter of fact, by the time I needed a short rest, the full casters were almost always wanting to pull out for a long rest anyways.

[Ebon]

Agreed. Martial Arts and unarmored movement both require a lack of armor or shield. You'd lose the extra moment as well as the bonus action attack(s) which make up some of the monk's core mechanics.

I totally agree. But what I'm thinking is that the Sun Soul Monk is the exception to the rule because Radiant Sun Bolt isn't as affected by those restrictions. Normally, in armor the monk loses their primary means of attack and, effectively, the ability to Flurry of Blows (because you can't use Martial Arts for the two bonus action Attacks).

However, while the Sun Soul is using his Radiant Range Dex attack, he can still use full Dex and get a full Martial Arts Die. That's still better than Unarmed attacks, and the Sun Soul can still flurry by spending 1 ki and getting two bonus Ranged attacks.

So now, the Sun Soul is effectively only losing their bonus movement. They can still use a short sword and now have the option of a shield with Half Plate. 19 AC ( + whatever other bonuses ) is Monk level 16 AC, for the cost of the bonus movement. At higher levels, can always revert to unarmored, but if needed, they have the option to armor up and stay at range.

But honestly, I think this character is another prime candidate for the Mobile feat. Sun Soul doesn't have a baked in disengagement mechanism like Open Hand and Drunken Master, so Mobile is particularly helpful. And all the other abilities should make this feel like a Monk again. With Extra Attack, if an enemy gets close, they can make a weapon attack, move away without provoking an opportunity attack, take a ranged radiant attack, and then two bonus action range attacks, all for 1 ki.

[samcifer]

I totally agree. But what I'm thinking is that the Sun Soul Monk is the exception to the rule because Radiant Sun Bolt isn't as affected by those restrictions. Normally, in armor the monk loses their primary means of attack and, effectively, the ability to Flurry of Blows (because you can't use Martial Arts for the two bonus action Attacks).

However, while the Sun Soul is using his Radiant Range Dex attack, he can still use full Dex and get a full Martial Arts Die. That's still better than Unarmed attacks, and the Sun Soul can still flurry by spending 1 ki and getting two bonus Ranged attacks.

So now, the Sun Soul is effectively only losing their bonus movement. They can still use a short sword and now have the option of a shield with Half Plate. 19 AC ( + whatever other bonuses ) is Monk level 16 AC, for the cost of the bonus movement. At higher levels, can always revert to unarmored, but if needed, they have the option to armor up and stay at range.

But honestly, I think this character is another prime candidate for the Mobile feat. Sun Soul doesn't have a baked in disengagement mechanism like Open Hand and Drunken Master, so Mobile is particularly helpful. And all the other abilities should make this feel like a Monk again. With Extra Attack, if an enemy gets close, they can make a weapon attack, move away without provoking an opportunity attack, take a ranged radiant attack, and then two bonus action range attacks, all for 1 ki.

Interesting concept, but I suppose it would require DM approval to be usable. :/

[sophontteks]

If you are going dex just skip the armor entirely and go full monk. The only thing you are losing is shield AC. That's not even close to justifying the loss of movement, melee, and 2 levels of progression.

Losing 2 levels of monk will be very painful. I think your underestimating the cost of setting everything your character gets back this far for 2-3 AC.

[Ebon]

If you are going dex just skip the armor entirely and go full monk. The only thing you are losing is shield AC. That's not even close to justifying the loss of movement, melee, and 2 levels of progression.

Losing 2 levels of monk will be very painful. I think your underestimating the cost of setting everything your character gets back this far for 2-3 AC.

I'm thinking one level of cleric, at any point in the progression still gives Medium Armor and Shield, fighter too.

This of course is a classic combination. But the Sun Soul in Armor is a different Monk playstyle than most.

[samcifer]

I'm thinking one level of cleric, at any point in the progression still gives Medium Armor and Shield, fighter too.

This of course is a classic combination. But the Sun Soul in Armor is a different Monk playstyle than most.

Clerics also have access to the Shield of Faith spell that grants +2 AC. It's a concentration spell, true, but most of what the monk does does not eat up concentration, so you should be able to use it well enough.

[sophontteks]

What is the playstyle?
We've made a tankier and slower monk, but we also crippled the monks melee strength for ranged attacks. This leaves us with two bad options. Play a front-liner that attacks at disadvantage. Or play in the back line where our AC is wasted.

[ciarannihill]

I personally love dipping into Rogue for Monks (particularly if the DM allows your Unarmed Strike to do Sneak Attack, which RAW I don't think it can technically), Shadow Monk and Assassin Rogue work pretty great together as a highly mobile striker, toss in a couple levels of Battle Master Fighter for Action Surge, HP and maneuvers and you become able to control the battlefield quite well also.

For level 20 builds Monk 12 / Rogue 5 / Fighter 3, Monk 14 / Rogue 4 / Fighter 2, Rogue 12 / Monk 6 / Fighter 2 are all pretty nifty ways of getting to the core fantasy of the build, but IMO it's best to build for level 8-12 at most, thankfully this is a level range where MCing is super potent. I drop the Fighter levels entirely and would go with:

Monk 6, then go until Rogue 4, then Monk 8. Focuses on getting your combat potential as a Monk to it's biggest breakpoint, plus 1 level for the Shadow Step. Rogue 4 gives you Sneak Attack, Cunning Action, Stealth Expertise, Assassinate and an ASI (probably maxing Dex at this point), then Monk 8 to get Evasion and another ASI (like Alert, Lucky, Sentinel, +Wis etc).

I also love the idea of playing a Kenku for this type of build. Not being able to speak other than mimicking presents a super cool roleplay challenge IMO.

[Ebon]

What is the playstyle?
We've made a tankier and slower monk, but we also crippled the monks melee strength for ranged attacks. This leaves us with two bad options. Play a front-liner that attacks at disadvantage. Or play in the back line where our AC is wasted.

Probably so. I've been assuming a Sun Soul uses their radiant blast effects all the time. But you make a good point that they are much more than that. They get all the same benefits as other monks, plus ranged radiant damage when needed. I kept thinking either/or, but it's really both. Heck, you got to make melee attacks to use stunning strike, and turning much of that off for extra AC isn't worth it.

However, thinking about all this did illuminate a new possibility for me. There are a lot of great choices of Clerics to multi-class with, but the obvious thematic pick of Light really works well with the Sun Soul I think. If you wait till after Monk 5 to take a level of Light cleric, you gain a lot of synergistic benefits. The bonus spells are burning hands (so your not even missing out on the Sun soul's lvl 6 benefit) and faerie fire, which is immensely useful. The slots are worth 4 ki points, and the Light Cleric's Warding Flare is like 3 ki worth of mini Patient Defense, imposing disadvantage on one attack as a reaction a number of times equal to wisdom modifier.

I could see taking a few levels of Light Cleric, go back to Monk till Level 8, then finish with cleric as a true dual class and not miss any ASI's.

[samcifer]

Probably so. I've been assuming a Sun Soul uses their radiant blast effects all the time. But you make a good point that they are much more than that. They get all the same benefits as other monks, plus ranged radiant damage when needed. I kept thinking either/or, but it's really both. Heck, you got to make melee attacks to use stunning strike, and turning much of that off for extra AC isn't worth it.

However, thinking about all this did illuminate a new possibility for me. There are a lot of great choices of Clerics to multi-class with, but the obvious thematic pick of Light really works well with the Sun Soul I think. If you wait till after Monk 5 to take a level of Light cleric, you gain a lot of synergistic benefits. The bonus spells are burning hands (so your not even missing out on the Sun soul's lvl 6 benefit) and faerie fire, which is immensely useful. The slots are worth 4 ki points, and the Light Cleric's Warding Flare is like 3 ki worth of mini Patient Defense, imposing disadvantage on one attack as a reaction a number of times equal to wisdom modifier.

I could see taking a few levels of Light Cleric, go back to Monk till Level 8, then finish with cleric as a true dual class and not miss any ASI's.

Question: Can Spell Sniper be combined with the Sun Soul ranged radiant attack to double the range?

[Ebon]

Not according to this old Sage Advice. "The second benefit of Spell Sniper benefits Radiant Sun Bolt, which isn't a spell but is a ranged spell attack." So it ignores cover for 30 feet.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/18/how-does-the-monks-radiant-sun-bolt-interact-with-spell-sniper/

BTW - This is my favorite answer to the Original Poster:


OP- My monk has a single level cleric dip that I took at 3rd level. It helped my character's background, and has given him a wide range of utility. So to answer your question, I did it for both fun and power. Not sure if I'll take the 2nd level of Light Cleric though. Its Channel Divinity is decent, but I do not want to be two levels behind on my monk's progression. Now had the 2nd level given me more than just one extra 1st level spell slot, it might have been more tempting.

1 Level of Light Cleric is like a 6 or 7 ki point boost, gives you Bless and Healing Word, not to mention Faerie Fire, which removes invisibility and gives advantage on all your many attacks.

[samcifer]

Not according to this old Sage Advice. "The second benefit of Spell Sniper benefits Radiant Sun Bolt, which isn't a spell but is a ranged spell attack." So it ignores cover for 30 feet.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/18/how-does-the-monks-radiant-sun-bolt-interact-with-spell-sniper/

BTW - This is my favorite answer to the Original Poster:



1 Level of Light Cleric is like a 6 or 7 ki point boost, gives you Bless and Healing Word, not to mention Faerie Fire, which removes invisibility and gives advantage on all your many attacks.

I'm unclear on exactly how you get a 6 or 7 ki pt. boost. Can you expand on this? Thanks.

[ToastyTobasco]

I'm unclear on exactly how you get a 6 or 7 ki pt. boost. Can you expand on this? Thanks.

I second this as I am very interested in the reasoning here

[samcifer]

https://twitter.com/argouru/status/1038957855607533568?s=19

Got this answer from Mike Mearls about monk martial arts vs wild shape.

[Ebon]

I'm unclear on exactly how you get a 6 or 7 ki pt. boost. Can you expand on this? Thanks.

Sure. I'm not saying it gives 7 ki points, or there's 7 ki points hidden in the rules. I said taking a one level dip into Light cleric is like getting a 6 or 7 ki boost, at the expense of the monk's progressions.

This my interpretation and reasoning, so YMMV. But what I found was that the subclass benefits were similar enough to the monk's as to be interchangeable. For example, a sixth level sun soul gets the ability to cast burning hands for 2 ki points. A Light cleric gets the burning hands spell and two spell slots. Those two spell slots represent ki points I can spend on Flurry of Blows or Stunning Strike, but since I can still cast burning hands with them, they are worth 4 total ki points to me in my evaluations.

It's not exactly the same, Sun soul can cast Burning hands as a bonus action. But also the cleric has the much greater versatility in what they can cast. What's more, they don't lose a lot if the slots don't get used. Those two slots also always represent a couple of Healing Words that can be used in emergencies when someone hits 0 hit points. Having that in reserve at all times is generally a good thing.

The Light cleric's Warding Flare ability is again, very similar to the Monk's Patient Defense. Both give disadvantage to attacker's, but one is the Bonus Action Dodge ( preventing other bonus actions ) and the other is only against a single attack as a Reaction. There are lots of combinations for these powers with the Monk's other abilities as well. But essentially, if a Monk really needs to dodge an incoming attack, but can use the Warding Flare instead, that's one more ki point that can be spent on something else like Dashing or Flurries ( in the same turn no less).

Hope that helps. Cheers!

[samcifer]

Sure. I'm not saying it gives 7 ki points, or there's 7 ki points hidden in the rules. I said taking a one level dip into Light cleric is like getting a 6 or 7 ki boost, at the expense of the monk's progressions.

This my interpretation and reasoning, so YMMV. But what I found was that the subclass benefits were similar enough to the monk's as to be interchangeable. For example, a sixth level sun soul gets the ability to cast burning hands for 2 ki points. A Light cleric gets the burning hands spell and two spell slots. Those two spell slots represent ki points I can spend on Flurry of Blows or Stunning Strike, but since I can still cast burning hands with them, they are worth 4 total ki points to me in my evaluations.

It's not exactly the same, Sun soul can cast Burning hands as a bonus action. But also the cleric has the much greater versatility in what they can cast. What's more, they don't lose a lot if the slots don't get used. Those two slots also always represent a couple of Healing Words that can be used in emergencies when someone hits 0 hit points. Having that in reserve at all times is generally a good thing.

The Light cleric's Warding Flare ability is again, very similar to the Monk's Patient Defense. Both give disadvantage to attacker's, but one is the Bonus Action Dodge ( preventing other bonus actions ) and the other is only against a single attack as a Reaction. There are lots of combinations for these powers with the Monk's other abilities as well. But essentially, if a Monk really needs to dodge an incoming attack, but can use the Warding Flare instead, that's one more ki point that can be spent on something else like Dashing or Flurries ( in the same turn no less).

Hope that helps. Cheers!

Okay, now I see what you meant. Thanks for clearing that up. 😁