Player wants to do a rogue swordsage character

[Zellsantal]

I am doing a gestalt game and one of my players is rolling a new character, he wants to go with a swordsage rogue mix which I thought would be interesting. However he never played a swordsage before but seen other players do well with it. I only know some but never built one my self so I'm not sure what feats he should take and such. He wants to be a damage dealing type of guy and a thief at the same time. He wants to be a half drow for the race and I see nothing wrong with that, for stats he would get a free 18 which I am sure he will put that one into dex but he would have to roll for other stats.

So my question is what are some suggestions can I give him? I believe there is a feat that would give him damage using dex instead of str but not sure what one is that. Other then that I am not sure what other feats, Maneuvers, and items he should go for his build. If anyone is willing to help me out that be great.

[GrayDeath]

Point him towards the Prestige Class Telflammar Shadowlord.

Playing one atm (Warblade//Rogue/SwordSage/Telflammar Shadowlord 9 so far).

It will both give him quite some utility (Skills from the Rogue, Shadow hand Maneuvers and inbuilt Teleport for a lot ofmobility and of course Shadow Puncing Full attacks with Sneak Attack and Maneuver dice to deal 15+d6 in middle levels. ;)

Disciplinewise I`d opt or mostly Diamond Mind, Shadow hand 2-3 Desert Wind for the Fire Resistance/a bit ranged attacks.

Done. :smallsmile:

[sleepyphoenixx]

Shadow Blade adds Dex to damage when you're in a Shadow Hand stance. It's right in ToB.
The other feat a Swordsage really wants is Adaptive Style to get around their weak recovery mechanic.

Otherwise it's fairly standard for rogue feats. TWF, Weapon Finesse (unless you can get Feycraft weapons), Darkstalker, Craven and Staggering Strike are the big ones.

[Zellsantal]

Point him towards the Prestige Class Telflammar Shadowlord.

Playing one atm (Warblade//Rogue/SwordSage/Telflammar Shadowlord 9 so far).

It will both give him quite some utility (Skills from the Rogue, Shadow hand Maneuvers and inbuilt Teleport for a lot ofmobility and of course Shadow Puncing Full attacks with Sneak Attack and Maneuver dice to deal 15+d6 in middle levels. ;)

Disciplinewise I`d opt or mostly Diamond Mind, Shadow hand 2-3 Desert Wind for the Fire Resistance/a bit ranged attacks.

Done. :smallsmile:

Its a gestalt game so there would be no prestige classes class's and he will only picking two class's.


Shadow Blade adds Dex to damage when you're in a Shadow Hand stance. It's right in ToB.
The other feat a Swordsage really wants is Adaptive Style to get around their weak recovery mechanic.

Otherwise it's fairly standard for rogue feats. TWF, Weapon Finesse (unless you can get Feycraft weapons), Darkstalker, Craven and Staggering Strike are the big ones.

Ah alright I knew it was some were but couldn't remember where and the rest of it sounds good as well though I would have to look into the feycraft weapons, never heard of them until now.

[daremetoidareyo]

Sun school in complete warrior if the flurry prereq is waived is a budget telflammer.

There are some neat racial feats in drow of the underdark that use and enhance the darkness spell like ability of drow. One of them allows you to use an action to make a hide check if you are near Darkness.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

One thing rogue/swordsages tend to be weak on is ranged attacks. Yes, they frequently focus on Dex, but they don't have any bonuses to ranged damage they can use, aside from what sneak attack stuff they get. That's useful for the first round of combat, but they tend to be weak at it after that. Shadowpounce teleporting helps with that, but it's not the same, as there are times when you don't want to get anywhere close to your enemies.

I would suggest the houserule that swordsages have enough magic that they can count as spellcasters for some prereqs, especially Craft (Alchemy) (or just get rid of the stupid prereq altogether). Of course, a 1-level dip in abrupt jaunt conjuror would ensure that your friend could do it anyway, and it comes with a really nice swift action teleport, albeit only 10'. Taking the gnome calculus as a weapon and hurling alchemical items would be a rather good way to go about covering for this particular weakness, especially if crafting alchemical ammo is available.

Of course, Pathfinder has the Dimensional Dervish (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-dervish/) feat, which allows for a full attack during a teleport, which would be fabulous for this build. The prereq feats are also pretty nice, although you'd have to rule that the shadow teleports count as dimension door for this purpose.

[Zellsantal]

Sun school in complete warrior if the flurry prereq is waived is a budget telflammer.

There are some neat racial feats in drow of the underdark that use and enhance the darkness spell like ability of drow. One of them allows you to use an action to make a hide check if you are near Darkness.

Hmm I check in on that, being hes only half draw he doesn't have the magical abilities. However he could still take the feats I would say.


One thing rogue/swordsages tend to be weak on is ranged attacks. Yes, they frequently focus on Dex, but they don't have any bonuses to ranged damage they can use, aside from what sneak attack stuff they get. That's useful for the first round of combat, but they tend to be weak at it after that. Shadowpounce teleporting helps with that, but it's not the same, as there are times when you don't want to get anywhere close to your enemies.

I would suggest the houserule that swordsages have enough magic that they can count as spellcasters for some prereqs, especially Craft (Alchemy) (or just get rid of the stupid prereq altogether). Of course, a 1-level dip in abrupt jaunt conjuror would ensure that your friend could do it anyway, and it comes with a really nice swift action teleport, albeit only 10'. Taking the gnome calculus as a weapon and hurling alchemical items would be a rather good way to go about covering for this particular weakness, especially if crafting alchemical ammo is available.

Of course, Pathfinder has the Dimensional Dervish (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-dervish/) feat, which allows for a full attack after a teleport, which would be fabulous for this build. The prereq feats are also pretty nice, although you'd have to rule that the shadow teleports count as dimension door for this purpose.

I have play pathfinder so I know about that feat but I thought there was already something similar to Dimensional Dervish or is it only pathfinder? Other then that I have set the game that skills any one can take which ever they want so if he wish that I can ask him and see.

Now heres another question in mind, if he is in a stands can he move and still be in that stands or is there a limit in moving with a stance?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I have play pathfinder so I know about that feat but I thought there was already something similar to Dimensional Dervish or is it only pathfinder? Other then that I have set the game that skills any one can take which ever they want so if he wish that I can ask him and see. Not that I'm aware of. You'd have to houserule some of this, but it seems like an easy fit.


Now heres another question in mind, if he is in a stands can he move and still be in that stands or is there a limit in moving with a stance?You stay in the same stance until you drop it, swap it (both as a swift action), are immobilized, or are KO'd.

Now I have a question. How would shadow pounce combine with Dimensional Dervish? If you gain a full attack between each dimension door, and each time you get to make an attack you can dimension door again, does that mean you gain infinite attacks until you run out of movement?

[Mike Miller]

Its a gestalt game so there would be no prestige classes class's and he will only picking two class's.

If there are no prestige classes and he will only have two classes I might recommend Warblade//Rogue instead of Swordsage//Rogue. A Swordsage//Rogue is going to be incredibly MAD (multiple ability dependent). A Warblade//Rogue has good Intelligence usage, as the rogue wants all the skills and the warblade makes use of high INT. There are some useful Swordsage maneuvers to increase the sneakiness of the rogue-type character, but I suppose it depends some on the group and campaign which would be better.

[Zellsantal]

Not that I'm aware of. You'd have to houserule some of this, but it seems like an easy fit.

You stay in the same stance until you drop it, swap it (both as a swift action), are immobilized, or are KO'd.

Now I have a question. How would shadow pounce combine with Dimensional Dervish? If you gain a full attack between each dimension door, and each time you get to make an attack you can dimension door again, does that mean you gain infinite attacks until you run out of movement?

Thank you for making sense about the stances, that will help a lot for him. Before I can answer your question how would you able to shadow pounce? Or is that a feat? Or is it a mix of shadow jaunt with a charge two weapon fighting? But in either case I would rule that it wouldn't be infinite attacks, I would either limit it or not have it at all, otherwise that's too OP.


If there are no prestige classes and he will only have two classes I might recommend Warblade//Rogue instead of Swordsage//Rogue. A Swordsage//Rogue is going to be incredibly MAD (multiple ability dependent). A Warblade//Rogue has good Intelligence usage, as the rogue wants all the skills and the warblade makes use of high INT. There are some useful Swordsage maneuvers to increase the sneakiness of the rogue-type character, but I suppose it depends some on the group and campaign which would be better.

He have plans for doing that way and in truth its alright, I like to see what he will do with it lol. But thanks for the idea.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Thank you for making sense about the stances, that will help a lot for him. Before I can answer your question how would you able to shadow pounce? Or is that a feat? Or is it a mix of shadow jaunt with a charge two weapon fighting? But in either case I would rule that it wouldn't be infinite attacks, I would either limit it or not have it at all, otherwise that's too OP.Someone earlier in the thread suggested Teflammar shadowlord, which is a Faerun PrC. I know you said "no PrCs," but I had a thought about how one of its abilities (make a full attack after teleporting) would mix with Dimensional Dervish (teleport between individual attacks).

Since it's gestalt, I'd suggest something like chameleon abrupt jaunt conjuror changeling racial sub level wizard 1/totemist 2/factotum 8/XXX 9 (I'd suggest chameleon, buuuuut...) // changeling racial sub rogue 1/swordsage X/warblade X, mixing up swordsage and warblade to get the most higher level maneuvers possible. Conjuror gets early-game teleportation, which segues nicely into swordsage. If Carmendine Monk can be applied to swordsage for +Int to AC, that would cut the Wis dependency down while improving Int synergy. Perhaps those extra 9 levels could be a mix of front-loaded classes for some additional power to keep him afloat. A level in spirit lion totem pouncing barbarian? A level or three in binder? Some incarnate for more essentia and chakra binds? Otherwise, maybe 9 more levels in conjuror. Changelings are known as being dilettantes, dabbling in all sorts of stuff, and this would personify that fairly well. Use Obtain Familiar to apply the changeling's morphic familiar. Improved Familiar to vastly improve the shapechanging abilities of said familiar...

[GrayDeath]

If there are no prestige classes and he will only have two classes I might recommend Warblade//Rogue instead of Swordsage//Rogue. A Swordsage//Rogue is going to be incredibly MAD (multiple ability dependent). A Warblade//Rogue has good Intelligence usage, as the rogue wants all the skills and the warblade makes use of high INT. There are some useful Swordsage maneuvers to increase the sneakiness of the rogue-type character, but I suppose it depends some on the group and campaign which would be better.


Seconded.

Swordsage is usually only taken in such things to A: get lots of Maneuvers or B: because you really need the skillpts/CLass features.

Rogue//Warblade is immensely elegant, only needs Dex and Int (choosing the right Disciplines helps there) and if Prestige Classes are flat out out, is about the top on mixed Bttle prowess and utility you can get without casting.


Still, allowing him Telflammar Shadowlord if it fits the theme wont make him OP (in addition the Prestige class has steep requirements that the usual feat dearth of Gestalt makes even harder). Just saying, depending on what all the others play, it`ll be OK (my character is in a group with a BLaster Psion/Half Illithid and a Pixie Mystic Theurge and until they get 9th Level casting/manifesting will still deal more damamge reliably and has lots of Skills, but doesnt overshadow them outside melee ...

[Zellsantal]

Ah I see. In either case I thank you all for your support, if anyone else wish to give some more input for the build that would good as well. I will talk with my player and tell him what I go so far, I am sure he will come up with some other things as well.

Now another question I do have, can you use like shadow junt to do a charge? But you wouldn't get the sneak attack right?

[GrayDeath]

You can, and if you manage to do that to a flatfooted Enemy (which you can do in various ways) you will still get the Sneak attack, which is why the TFSL is such a sweet addition ^^

[ExLibrisMortis]

Its a gestalt game so there would be no prestige classes class's and he will only picking two class's.
I'm curious as to why you have this houserule?


Warblade//factotum and warblade//rogue are nice INT-heavy martials-with-skill. If your player wants sneak attack on a swordsage, the UA sneak attack fighter variant is a better pick--higher HD, more base attack, good fortitude save. Rogue and swordsage just overlap too much.

[Zellsantal]

You can, and if you manage to do that to a flatfooted Enemy (which you can do in various ways) you will still get the Sneak attack, which is why the TFSL is such a sweet addition ^^

Do enlighten me of getting many ways to do flatfooted, the only ways I know is with flanking and invisibility.


I'm curious as to why you have this houserule?


Warblade//factotum and warblade//rogue are nice INT-heavy martials-with-skill. If your player wants sneak attack on a swordsage, the UA sneak attack fighter variant is a better pick--higher HD, more base attack, good fortitude save. Rogue and swordsage just overlap too much.

Because it was something I wanted to do but to make sure it's mostly balance, didn't want some one who was too weak but not too strong either. That said I saw no reason for prestige classes and it would hard to fit them in the way I have it set up. We already have a fighter/paladin, fighter/ranger(gunslinger build), warlock/scout, had a monk/druid but he just change to be a dark npc so now that player is making a rogue/swordsage.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Because it was something I wanted to do but to make sure it's mostly balance, didn't want some one who was too weak but not too strong either. That said I saw no reason for prestige classes and it would hard to fit them in the way I have it set up.
For balance, you would ban monks and fighters and their ilk and nerf full casters down to the bard progression. Or make everyone use a caster//noncaster gestalt. Banning PrCs is counter-productive.

In any case, it looks like your party is all low-tier martial combinations--only the warlock/scout has any real synergy going (assuming they use Eldritch Glaive or Eldritch Claws to get multiple EB+skirmish hits)--so rogue//swordsage would not be as bad as I thought.

[Darrin]

Ah I see. In either case I thank you all for your support, if anyone else wish to give some more input for the build that would good as well.


Assuming this is a Dex-based Rogue 20//Swordsage 20, my advice for feats would be:
Race: Human, Azurin, or Strongheart Halfling (for the bonus feat)
1st: Shadow Blade (Tome of Battle), Craven (Champions of Ruin)
3rd: Weapon Finesse
6th: Adaptive Style (Tome of Battle)
9th: TWF (use Gloves of the Balanced Hand in MIC for Imp TWF)
12th: Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer)
15th: Improved TWF
18th: Greater TWF

If you allow flaws, then you can move TWF and maybe Adaptive Style up to 1st, then pick up Darkstalker (Lords of Madness) and Undo Resistance (Exemplars of Evil) later.



Now another question I do have, can you use like shadow junt to do a charge?


There are a couple ways to turn Shadow Jaunt into a charge, but they require some rules finagling and an affable DM. The first method uses Battle Jump from Unapproachable East, but this is a regional feat from Taer, and that region is supposed to be unpopulated with anything except furry white ape-like savages that fly into a rage if you give them anything more complicated than a two-word sentence. The mechanics of how to use Battle Jump are also still under debate, as it's not clear if you can use it whenever you drop down on an opponent from above or if you need to use a full-round action to charge.

The second method is the Roof-Jumper feat from Cityscape, which requires Dodge/Mobility and some skill ranks. Mechanically, it's not all that much clearer how it works than Battle Jump, except we're pretty sure it doesn't explicitly require a cliff.

Once you've established a method to turn a fall or drop into a Charge, you'll want to turn it into a full attack with Pounce (usually by dipping Barbarian 1 for Spirit Lion Totem). There are a couple other ways to get Pounce, but that's usually the easiest to finagle.

If you're using Telflammar Shadowlord or Crinti Shadow Marauder to combine Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink with Shadow Pounce, then yes, you can use several [teleport] abilities in the same round to get multiple full attacks. The psionic power dimension hop (Complete Psionic), the flicker shadow mystery (Tome of Magic), and Blink Shirt soulmeld (Magic of Incarnum) can also be used to trigger Shadow Pounce. However, due to the complexity in qualifying for everything, these builds tend to be very complicated to put together. I have a few examples in Section 4.c of my TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15034800&postcount=15), and Shadow-Pouncers show up every so often in Iron Chef competitions, but off the top of my head I'm not sure if I've seen a Gestalt version (feels a little like cheating, as it makes it a bit too easy to qualify for everything).



But you wouldn't get the sneak attack right?

You get sneak attack on every qualifying attack. If your opponent is denied Dex because you're flanking or invisible (with improved invisibility or Cloak of Deception), then every attack gets sneak attack. Using the Island of Blades stance is a good way to always be flanking, assuming you have an ally that can stand next to the same opponent you're attacking.

If you were hiding from your opponent, then usually just the first attack gets sneak attack, because once you've hit, your opponent is usually aware of you and thus you're no longer hidden. However, there are several different ways to get Hide in Plain Sight and a high enough Hide check that you can immediately hide (with a -20 penalty) right after making an attack. But that's a complicated discussion that is probably better covered elsewhere.


Do enlighten me of getting many ways to do flatfooted, the only ways I know is with flanking and invisibility.


Stunned opponents lose their Dex bonus, and can be sneak attacked. I already mentioned hiding, but that might be part of a larger category where you're cutting off an opponent's ability to perceive you as an attacker. When your opponent is blinded, you attack as if you were invisible, which means they are denied their Dex bonus. If you can cut off your opponent's ability to see you, then that can be a good method to trigger sneak attack: total darkness (that you can see through but they can't), Ring of Blinking with Pierce Magical Concealment, and the Snowglobe of Murder (obscuring snow + snowsight).

One of the Rogue handbooks probably has a more in-depth look at all the different ways to get sneak attack.

[Sian]

One thing rogue/swordsages tend to be weak on is ranged attacks. Yes, they frequently focus on Dex, but they don't have any bonuses to ranged damage they can use, aside from what sneak attack stuff they get. That's useful for the first round of combat, but they tend to be weak at it after that. Shadowpounce teleporting helps with that, but it's not the same, as there are times when you don't want to get anywhere close to your enemies.

Island of blades as a stance neatly fixes most of the problems, as it makes it so you count as flanking as long as one of your allies are also in melee with the target

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Island of blades as a stance neatly fixes most of the problems, as it makes it so you count as flanking as long as one of your allies are also in melee with the targetErr, both you and your ally have to be adjacent to the target. Making ranged attack rolls against foes within AoO distance is not a good idea. And you may as well make a melee attack anyway.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Island of blades as a stance neatly fixes most of the problems, as it makes it so you count as flanking as long as one of your allies are also in melee with the target
You may be confusing Island of Blades with the Distracting Shot ranger ACF, which does let you flank with ranged attacks. Or the "Tiny familiar with reach and Island of Blades" trick.

[Nifft]

I'm curious as to why you have this houserule?
Huh, people apparently forget that allowing PrCs is a houserule, and seem to think that PrCs are always legal by default.


Because it was something I wanted to do but to make sure it's mostly balance, didn't want some one who was too weak but not too strong either. That said I saw no reason for prestige classes and it would hard to fit them in the way I have it set up. We already have a fighter/paladin, fighter/ranger(gunslinger build), warlock/scout, had a monk/druid but he just change to be a dark npc so now that player is making a rogue/swordsage.

Interesting game, too bad you lost the Monk//Druid -- as thing stand, the PCs look a bit light on magic.

I guess the Paladin and Ranger can use wands & stuff.

Regarding the Rogue//Swordsage, one thought on building the character might be to use the Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) variant instead of Rogue. The character would lose 2 skill points (and access to all Rogue skills, including good stuff like UMD), but in trade would get d10 HD, good Fort save, full BAB, and Sneak Attack.

(Though if it were my game, I'd probably arrange for the Sneak Attack Fighter to get some bonus feats in addition to Sneak Attack progression -- the Fighter is a bit light in terms of overall class feature value.)

[rrwoods]

Poked my head in and saw this a couple times.

Flanking does not deny Dex to AC.

It is sufficient to turn on sneak attack, that’s true, but don’t conflate the two when considering the actual AC you need to beat to hit your target.

[Telonius]

One suggestion on the race. "Half-Drow" is probably (mechanically) the single worst 0-LA race Wizards ever published. They're Half-Elves without the skill bonuses or immunity to Sleep. I'd steer the player toward Lesser Drow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=2).