Some feedback on the world's lore?

[SangoProduction]

So, my players have come across an ancient elven ruin, and showed interest in learning more about it. I had much of this thought out ahead of time, but I was wanting to see what the playground thinks of it.

Elves were the first sentient race. The only sentient race of the world. Unchallenged in a mundane world, they grew to dominance, and even grasped the celestial bodies within their palms. They invented tiny airborne "actors" (which are carriers of "magic") for every purpose from running entire worlds in tiny spaces to creating pets. Indeed, the oldest elven records tell of Dwarves being created as an engineered slave race out of boredom. So strong was the engineering that even to this day, untold elven generations later, the imprinted desire to mine and work hard is strong in their veins.

But none-too-long after (at least for the neigh-immortal and omnipotent elves), everything the universe had to be seen had been seen. Everything to be learned had been learned. The gods worshipped today were the polymorphic automated magic administrators spontaneously created to manage and reel in excessive, unauthorized use of the worlds. And so...passion died. Even the demiplanes they created for their games soon grew repetitive and boring. No new ideas. Everything has already been done. One by one, the elves died off, many not caring to clean up their demiplanes left running...eventually spilling out in to the world, and ultimately leaving the world up to the NPCs and monsters their own forgotten games - creatures who might reach for, but never achieve, their "success".

[Palanan]

That’s…depressing. Sounds like the elves are the Q Continuum.

This wouldn’t engage me as a player. Maybe it’s the emphasis in your text on boredom and the lack of new ideas, but if I were a player I’d be disappointed to learn this.

[SangoProduction]

lol. That's an interesting outlook. Perhaps I didn't put too much emphasis there, since this was basically a summary of a creation ...story.
Well, before the players find out more, would you like to offer a suggestion?

[Palanan]

Not sure what you're looking for here. All I can provide is my impression of how I'd receive this as a player.

Part of the issue is that this reminds me strongly of several science fiction novels I've read, in particular Memory by Linda Nagata. I really enjoyed the book, but the elements I'm reminded of are less satisfying as game-world backstory.

And the description of the elves as jaded cosmic dilettantes...seems to take one aspect of elvenkind and run far with it, perhaps too far for my liking. I'm assuming your campaign world doesn't have elves as a player race?

.

[Bronk]

And the description of the elves as jaded cosmic dilettantes...seems to take one aspect of elvenkind and run far with it, perhaps too far for my liking. I'm assuming your campaign world doesn't have elves as a player race?

It does seem odd to cut out a major player race like that. (Or more if you count half elves, drow, and all the many varieties of elf.) Is it too late to pick something else? Maybe in this case, the elves worked for LeShay (ELH)?

If not regular elves or LeShay, I'm thinking the Arcane or even the Juna (Spelljammer), the Mercane (ELH), or one of the Creator Races from Faerun (There are 5 or 6 of them, plus dragons afterwards), or maybe the Wind Dukes of Aaqa (Planescape), etc., etc. Or maybe a fallen race, like the Irda (Dragonlance) or the Avariel (Faerun again), that are still living, but in seclusion.

Otherwise, seems like a good solid fantasy trope!

[PunBlake]

It seems these elves were smart but not wise. They didn't reflect on their acts and find that they were good, and instead were lost to nihilism. It's a sad story, but it doesn't serve as a moral to adventurers as much as the History of Xen'Drick from Eberron. Here, the dark elves sought more power, became obsessed with it and <calamity that is lost to time> happened, destroying most of the race.

Usually, as this is the way history is presented to us (a story with purpose), we expect a moral to be pulled from the story. Is there a moral to be pulled from the history of these elves? Is what I wrote above it, or am I missing something?

[Bronk]

It seems these elves were smart but not wise. They didn't reflect on their acts and find that they were good, and instead were lost to nihilism. It's a sad story, but it doesn't serve as a moral to adventurers as much as the History of Xen'Drick from Eberron. Here, the dark elves sought more power, became obsessed with it and <calamity that is lost to time> happened, destroying most of the race.

Cool. Sounds like the Fey-ri from Faerun during the Crown Wars.

[SangoProduction]

It's a fair deal too late to say they weren't elves, and that elves are still around (no one seemed miffed at the small restriction at character creation). There wasn't any 'purpose' to the creation lore. It was just a posited explanation of how the world came to be as it is. Is there a way to insert a purpose while maintaining a bit of the theme of a 'progenitor race'? I chose to take the elves as the progenitor race because it implies a lore reason without expounding lore before anyone's become interested.

The idea was kinda supposed to be a bit nihilistic and depressing, though that can be changed. Perhaps instead, the elves had long since abandoned the world to search for "the new" which lay beyond its confines? Thus, the last cycle has not been completed. This does leave a slight possibility of a ..."sleeping giant" that was left behind.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by SangoProduction
It's a fair deal too late to say they weren't elves, and that elves are still around (no one seemed miffed at the small restriction at character creation).

Well, no reason there can’t be surviving enclaves of elves, hidden from mortal sight and remaining in hopes of their lost kin one day returning. Or perhaps they were abandoned for some cause arising from internal strife—perhaps they found value in the world which their lost kin did not, and these few elves alone remain as caretakers and guardians for the younger races.


Originally Posted by SangoProduction
The idea was kinda supposed to be a bit nihilistic and depressing….

You may have gone a little overboard here.


Originally Posted by SangoProduction
Perhaps instead, the elves had long since abandoned the world to search for "the new" which lay beyond its confines?

I like this approach. This leaves room for the elves to be roaming the cosmos, with the prospect of their someday returning, perhaps awaited by a handful of remaining elves—who may be anticipating a long-delayed reunion, or perhaps dreading their return and what it might portend for the world.

[SangoProduction]

I legitimately did not think that it was that depressing lol. Well, when your life is basically a goth's nightmare, you become a bit more numb to the eventuality of the human experience. I am quite glad I got the opinions of the playground before I revealed more to the players.

[Troacctid]

To me it just feels weird to have elves in that role. Nothing about elves says "Ultra-powerful progenitor race that created the gods themselves" to me, y'know? That sounds more like daelkyr or sarrukhs or mind flayers or even dragons.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Troacctid
To me it just feels weird to have elves in that role. Nothing about elves says "Ultra-powerful progenitor race that created the gods themselves" to me, y'know?

Fully agreed.

I could see the elves as an offshoot of the progenitor race, perhaps an early attempt at self-improvement that fell short of perfection, and was cast aside to fend for itself while the true progenitors went about uplifting and departing into the cosmos.


Originally Posted by SangoProduction
I am quite glad I got the opinions of the playground before I revealed more to the players.

So, what proportion of our suggestions will you be using? You seemed to indicate there was more you haven’t shared with us.

[SangoProduction]

So, what proportion of our suggestions will you be using? You seemed to indicate there was more you haven’t shared with us.

Only detail-level stuff that comes out during play, but isn't critical to the idea-level.

[Feantar]

I like it. Especially the nihilistic, mildly depressing part. I disagree that it's all that grimdark - it just posits that immortality and absolute power lead to misery, which is neither the usual nor the intended experience. It can be seen as a moral in that sense. Also, while you say that elves are the first sentient race, is there a creator, or is this just a naturally occurring universe?

On the other hand, removing elves removes about 60% of base race choices if you count elven subraces :P

Are you going for cosmic horror or just a post-apocalyptic fantasy world?

Side note: Your elves sound a bit like the Dwemer in the Elder Scrolls universe (yeah, they are called dwarves, but they are underground elves)

[RedWarlock]

I was going to say it reminded me of the elves of Dragon Age. They were immortal, massively magical, but one of their own basically betrayed them and ripped the majority of magic from their grasp (by changing the fundamental nature of reality, creating the veil that separated the magical world of the spirits from the mundane), reducing them to mortal power, after which humans enslaved them.

[Anymage]

Elves in many RPGs have an identity crisis. On the one hand they're supposed to be an elder race who leverage their culture, longevity, and grace to just be better than the common races like humans. On the other hand, an elf is supposed to be balanced to work in the same party as a human. This creates problems when one set of rules (racial stats) tries to be both at the same time.

My recommendation is that at some point between being the first sentients to awaken and becoming the Q continuum, they became fantasy transhumanists who changed themselves into something radically different from the current "elf" entry in the MM. (Their lithe, graceful, pointy-eared forms that we're all familiar with might even be one of the earlier changes, leaving their original form as something different. Don't feel the need to nail down the earlier forms or even necessarily allude to it in game right now, just be aware that the option remains open to you.) This particular ancient ruin might reflect something closer to a basic humanoid experience. If you find ruins from a more advanced period in their history, keep in mind that the elves of that time period might well have modified themselves with templates, significant stat boosts, innate magical abilities, and other things that a race ascending so far might do to themselves.

One thing I would quibble, that probably doesn't affect your setting practically, would be to change the nature of magic. Instead of filling the atmosphere with tiny nanobots, elves instead learned how to hack reality to add a whole new fundamental force to the universe. The "magic" force being a universal constant like gravity or electromagnetism explains why it's everywhere, even down to a recently excavated open space on the plane of earth. Plus, adding a whole new constant to the fabric of reality is pretty cool.

[OgresAreCute]

Seems cool to me. I think many of the other posters here are exaggerating how depressing it is. The "über-powerful fallen progenitor empire" is a tried-and-true trope we see pretty much everywhere, in particular this has some similarities to Netheril from the Forgotten Realms (super-mage empire living on floating islands. Culminates in a cool cat called Karsus casting a 12th level spell to ascend to divinity, but instead he accidentally tears apart the entire weave of magic). Just because the elves thought life was boring at that point doesn't mean the current world is boring to be in or play in, and also doesn't necessarily mean that the players/people in the world will know much about this fallen empire. They're often portrayed as enigmatic and mysterious. Also, finding old super-tech can often be fun and cool, and you can incorporate some of the more major finds into society-defining artifacts that current empires have obtained and use (think like the mass relays in Mass Effect).

Only real problem I have with it is that I don't like restricting player choices, and you're effectively taking away elves. Most people probably don't care a lot, but I personally think it's really annoying having to go check with and get an OK from the DM for EVERY SINGLE THING I want to put in my character, especially if it's SRD/PHB content. You'll also want to make a more in-the-present storyline so the PCs have something to do, but you probably already knew that.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Anymage
My recommendation is that at some point between being the first sentients to awaken and becoming the Q continuum, they became fantasy transhumanists who changed themselves into something radically different from the current "elf" entry in the MM.

This reminds me of the Dan Simmons novels about the transhumanists who reshaped themselves into Olympian gods. I could see something similar going on here.


Originally Posted by Anymage
Instead of filling the atmosphere with tiny nanobots, elves instead learned how to hack reality to add a whole new fundamental force to the universe. The "magic" force being a universal constant like gravity or electromagnetism explains why it's everywhere, even down to a recently excavated open space on the plane of earth. Plus, adding a whole new constant to the fabric of reality is pretty cool.

And I do like this approach—much more satisfying than nanobots or whatever.

I would add one other aspect to it, which is that the transelvenists thought they were changing the nature of the universe, but in fact the effect falls off at an inverse square outside the planet’s orbit, so their grand outward migration may have stranded itself in deep space, requiring a whole series of “universal changes” like stepping stones across interstellar space.

I’m thinking of the Zones of Thought from A Fire Upon the Deep, in which the physical properties of the galaxy change depending on the distance from the galactic core, and which affect computational and cognitive processes as a result. I could see the transelvenists creating something similar, perhaps deluding themselves into thinking they had really changed the entire universe, when in fact their greatest power could only affect space on an interplanetary scale.


Originally Posted by OgresAreCute
I think many of the other posters here are exaggerating how depressing it is.

This seems aimed at me. I can guarantee you that I’m not exaggerating how depressing I find the original premise, nor how disappointed I would be if this was revealed to my character.


Originally Posted by OgresAreCute
Only real problem I have with it is that I don't like restricting player choices, and you're effectively taking away elves.

The OP already addressed this, and specifically mentioned his players didn't object to the lack of elves.

[Bronk]

Seems cool to me. I think many of the other posters here are exaggerating how depressing it is. The "über-powerful fallen progenitor empire" is a tried-and-true trope we see pretty much everywhere, in particular this has some similarities to Netheril from the Forgotten Realms

I didn't say so before, but for me, personally, this is a bit depressing. I think the difference between this and the standard DnD 'living in the ashes of fallen empires' thing is this:



But none-too-long after (at least for the neigh-immortal and omnipotent elves), everything the universe had to be seen had been seen. Everything to be learned had been learned.

And so...passion died. Even the demiplanes they created for their games soon grew repetitive and boring. No new ideas. Everything has already been done.

- creatures who might reach for, but never achieve, their "success".

While regular DnD has you living in the ruins of various pretty decent empires that you can aspire to match or surpass while learning from their forgotten relics.

Instead, here everything's already been done, and you can never aspire to be as good or as powerful as the progenitors. In this version, you aren't fighting over lost relics, you're fighting over the trash... but also you are the trash, the world is trash, and the universe is trash. It seems pretty bleak to me.

Bleak, but not necessarily bad or anything. It's backstory, and that's pretty fun to ferret out in game. Plus, since you wouldn't necessarily get all of it at once, it would come at you one specific dead elf (or LeShay? Eh?) at a time, individual stories that would just be regular dead old guy fare.

[OgresAreCute]

This seems aimed at me. I can guarantee you that I’m not exaggerating how depressing I find the original premise, nor how disappointed I would be if this was revealed to my character.



The OP already addressed this, and specifically mentioned his players didn't object to the lack of elves.

I just kinda skimmed the other replies before posting, seemed like consensus was "this stuff is sad". Wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. I also saw OP's players didn't really mind, and I addressed this is my own post, most people don't mind but I definitely would. Could be one of the players change their minds eventually too, they thought they were going for one thing but actually decides to go for a different build and then ends up at "grey elf would be perfect for this".


I didn't say so before, but for me, personally, this is a bit depressing. I think the difference between this and the standard DnD 'living in the ashes of fallen empires' thing is this:



While regular DnD has you living in the ruins of various pretty decent empires that you can aspire to match or surpass while learning from their forgotten relics.

Instead, here everything's already been done, and you can never aspire to be as good or as powerful as the progenitors. In this version, you aren't fighting over lost relics, you're fighting over the trash... but also you are the trash, the world is trash, and the universe is trash. It seems pretty bleak to me.

Bleak, but not necessarily bad or anything. It's backstory, and that's pretty fun to ferret out in game. Plus, since you wouldn't necessarily get all of it at once, it would come at you one specific dead elf (or LeShay? Eh?) at a time, individual stories that would just be regular dead old guy fare.

Not sure how much of this lore is getting dumped on the players right from the get-go, but they won't necessarily know that the elves conquered absolutely everything. Even if they do know, they won't necessarily know what the elves found. Let's say I'm gonna explore an island. I know Bob the Explorer has been there once upon a time, but no one knows what he found there, and no one else has been there. So it's still effectively unexplored.

[SangoProduction]

Not sure how much of this lore is getting dumped on the players right from the get-go, but they won't necessarily know that the elves conquered absolutely everything. Even if they do know, they won't necessarily know what the elves found. Let's say I'm gonna explore an island. I know Bob the Explorer has been there once upon a time, but no one knows what he found there, and no one else has been there. So it's still effectively unexplored.

That kind of reminds me of how people like to say the Vikings discovered America...despite not doing anything with the discovery. Even such that it wasn't even a tale told around Europe until *way* later. Like, very impressive. Clap clap.

But yeah. As the paladin moto goes "We can never achieve perfection, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for it." Now that I've got a clearer reason for why it's depressive. It does kinda ring of "The highest level we could get is 20, and there's nothing more we can do past that, and it's all been done before." By different people. Yes, I will not claim that my campaigns are paragons of creativity, and that no one has played a game like mine. But you might not have. -But I do also see how, if this turns your perception of the world as a "refuse bin", then it can easily make it unappealing to play in. Interesting. I think I could adjust less than I originally thought I needed to, with that new insight. Much appreciated. I do think I might still take the "they left the planet to look for the 'new' " idea though.

And to OgresAreCute, I make my character creation parameters clear before character/application submission. You don't need to check in with me for every detail. Although if you're doing anything weird, or particularly game-changing, I'd quite like to know about it.