The Epic Heavy Trebuchet!!!

[Max Caysey]

Hi guys…

I’m looking for ways, mundane and magical to optimize a Heavy Trebuchet, both in damage and range. I basically want to make an epically powerful siege engine, capable of maxing out damage at as long range as possible.

I would prefer keeping the optimizations levels to Practical, and not Theoretical, but I’m still interested in hearing the theoretical ones as well.

Only rule is, that the Siege Engineer is a human, with a maximum of 20 levels and that the primary damage output is done by the heavy trebuchet. So I’m looking for build of Master Siege Engineer, build and enchantments for the Heavy Trebuchet itself and buff spells to increase potential of engine.

Cheers!

[Bronk]

enchantments for the Heavy Trebuchet itself and buff spells to increase potential of engine.


I'm away from my books, but I could have sworn that somewhere a trebuchet was listed as being equivalent to a giant sized crossbow. If that's the case, you'd want the repeating and self loading enchantments to start with.

[Khedrac]

I'm away from my books, but I could have sworn that somewhere a trebuchet was listed as being equivalent to a giant sized crossbow. If that's the case, you'd want the repeating and self loading enchantments to start with.

That would probably be a ballista, a trebuchet is more of a giant sling-staff. That said, those enchantments would be just as (if not more) useful.

[Max Caysey]

I'm away from my books, but I could have sworn that somewhere a trebuchet was listed as being equivalent to a giant sized crossbow. If that's the case, you'd want the repeating and self loading enchantments to start with.

This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YSnBWlBcB0) is a Trebuchet! :)

[Goaty14]

Does it have to be a trebuchet? Could it just be a colossal sling stone, or just another rock for a hulking hurler?

[Bronk]

That would probably be a ballista, a trebuchet is more of a giant sling-staff. That said, those enchantments would be just as (if not more) useful.


This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YSnBWlBcB0) is a Trebuchet! :)

Sorry guys, definite brain fart.

You can sub in a 'Delicate Disk' (spell effect) that houses a 'Hurling Stone' spell. That's more expensive, but easier to use.

You can use the 'Force' enhancement.

You can mount it on a Spelljammer or other flying ship.

[Kayblis]

Can you treat siege weapons as ranged weapons for enchantment? I know you can with Ballistas as they are giant Crossbows, but I'm not sure about Trebuchets. If you can, add "+1 Force Distance Speed" (+7 total), add in "Sizing" (+5000 gp), make it Repeating or Quick Loading(another +1), mix with Rapid Reload feat and you can Full Attack with a Colossal Heavy Crossbow. It has twice the range, gets a Haste effect, pierces any DR and you can fold it to carry in your pocket. Add Far Shot feat for more range, and a Weapon Crystal for some secondary effect.

[AvatarVecna]

Use "Shrink Item" on whatever it is you intend to fire before firing it. This allows you to fire something while it's the size of a trebuchet stone, and then as it's flying, expands to the size of whatever it was before being shrunk.

[DrMotives]

Can you treat siege weapons as ranged weapons for enchantment? I know you can with Ballistas as they are giant Crossbows, but I'm not sure about Trebuchets. If you can, add "+1 Force Distance Speed" (+7 total), add in "Sizing" (+5000 gp), make it Repeating or Quick Loading(another +1), mix with Rapid Reload feat and you can Full Attack with a Colossal Heavy Crossbow. It has twice the range, gets a Haste effect, pierces any DR and you can fold it to carry in your pocket. Add Far Shot feat for more range, and a Weapon Crystal for some secondary effect.

All siege weapons can be enchanted like personal weapons. Battering rams are melee, but the others are all ranged. Only difference is when you enchant ammunition, catapult stones or ballista bolts or whatever, you can't enchant a stack for one price. A single round of siege weapon ammo costs as much to enchant as a set of 20 arrows.

[PunBlake]

In case people actually want to know where rules are for trebuchets in 3.5:
DMG pg99-100 - Not very helpful.
Heroes of Battle pg63-67 - VERY helpful.

It basically requires a high Int engineer with Leadership, a big cohort to help drag into place (and maybe load shots without magic), and a crew to help aim and fire.

[Saintheart]

There is a siege golem in Cityscape, albeit it's pretty pricey. Still, Construct traits and Immunity to Magic. Requires stuff like Limited Wish as prerequisites, but seeing as you've got a human with 20 levels, this is not hard to do.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Add the sizing and morphing enhancements on Hank's energy bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). Add splitting and whatever else you want (like the enhancements on the raptor arrow, from the MIC). And don't forget the aptitude enhancement so you can use unrelated feats on it.

Now you get ranged Power Attack, infinite ammo, splitting ammo, regular Power Attack, and all sorts of other benefits, all on a trebuchet you can shrink down and slip on as a poison ring to keep it out of the way when you're not using it. Or just turn it into a dagger, move it where you want it, and then expand it back into your trebuchet when you need a siege weapon in another spot.

[Falontani]

So what I'm hearing is artificer

[PunBlake]

I agree; artificer with Leadership and max ranks in Profession (Siege Engineer) seems expected.

More notes on Trebuchet from HoB:

Cleric becomes a good high-level secondary option, with the 7th level Cleric-only spell Animate Siege Weapon (pg125, duration 1r/CL); you gain a bonus on siege weapon attacks equal to CL, so no need to care about Int there.

The equivalent enchantment for siege weapons to ignore ammo and loading is Self-Loading (+2, HoB pg134).
Apparently, most ranged weapon enchantments apply by RAI (RAW see HoB pg134, applicable are DMG pg223-226 only, Speed excluded).
If you want a spicy enchantment on a trebuchet, consider Necromantic (+3000g). Shots create up to 20HD of undead 10r later.

[Bronk]

In case people actually want to know where rules are for trebuchets in 3.5:
DMG pg99-100 - Not very helpful.
Heroes of Battle pg63-67 - VERY helpful.

It basically requires a high Int engineer with Leadership, a big cohort to help drag into place (and maybe load shots without magic), and a crew to help aim and fire.

Plus the whole section on magical siege weapons in Heroes of Battle 133-137. There's also 'Animate Siege Weapon', a level 7 cleric spell.

I thought there was also an item that conjured a team of skeletons to reload for you, but it must have been from a spelljammer book.

[PunBlake]

An unfortunate note on Animate Siege Weapon: A Heavy Trebuchet (base size Colossal) normally cannot be animated, while a Light Trebuchet (base size Gargantuan) can based on size limits of the spell.
A Sizing Heavy Trebuchet would likely get around this (unless a DM objected).

[Goaty14]

Use "Shrink Item" on whatever it is you intend to fire before firing it. This allows you to fire something while it's the size of a trebuchet stone, and then as it's flying, expands to the size of whatever it was before being shrunk.

Doesn't work, unless the target has an AMF on it, or if you hit it with a (Greater) Dispel Magic while it's midair. The Sizing (+1) enchantment is what you want. Oops. Maybe I should read the spell description before writing stuff :smalltongue:

[DeTess]

Use "Shrink Item" on whatever it is you intend to fire before firing it. This allows you to fire something while it's the size of a trebuchet stone, and then as it's flying, expands to the size of whatever it was before being shrunk.

And then you get to watch the physics-major DM cry as he tries to figure ou what'll happen to momentum and newton's laws once the stone is enlarged again :smalltongue: .

[Kayblis]

And then you get to watch the physics-major DM cry as he tries to figure ou what'll happen to momentum and newton's laws once the stone is enlarged again :smalltongue: .

That has been a major point of discussion with Size effects, and RAW seems to favor the item mantaining its speed and just gaining a buttload of momentum. I mean, it's not so absurd when you consider the fact that the same spell just made a 10-ton boulder weight less than a pound in the first place.

[Max Caysey]

Thank you for your replies so far...

I have to stress that is absolutely has to be a Heavy Trebuchet! The trebuchets will be a stationary defensive installation, so I't wont be worn or pocketed :)

By all means keep them coming... I'll go over each of them and check them out and try to post it here. I'm hoping to be able to get the max range above 10.000 ft. I want this machine to be able to hit incoming naval vessels from a far. Or advancing armies before any of their weapons can reach the city walls!

The longer range the better... also it should have exploding shells, for setting fire to ships and to take out entire swats of enemies. I basically want this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWyVd1iKa-I), but as a Heavy Trebuchet!

Thank you again!

[Albions_Angel]

That has been a major point of discussion with Size effects, and RAW seems to favor the item mantaining its speed and just gaining a buttload of momentum. I mean, it's not so absurd when you consider the fact that the same spell just made a 10-ton boulder weight less than a pound in the first place.

Those discussions were always academic at best. And I say that as a Physics PhD student.

D&D doesnt work on a physics basis. Projectiles dont do damage because of their momentum, they do damage based on their size alone. Shrinking a boulder to fit a sling just means that you have a sling bullet. The only time a DMs discretion comes into it is in the order of operations. Does the object do damage BEFORE or AFTER it hits a solid surface, thus ending the spell.

If its BEFORE, then it does 1d4 damage (for a medium creature), then expands 4 size categories, pushing creatures out the way and potentially doing damage in line with other things that push you out the way or up against objects. Its usually on the order of 1d6 per 5ft you would have been moved, but pick your favourite version and ask the DM. Again, the speed of expansion doesnt matter. No one gets hurled through the air, no one gets splattered underneath, all that happens is a boulder appears, and anything that occupied the space it now occupies is essentially teleported to the nearest empty square, possibly taking some damage. How you want to fluff that is up to you, but thats all that happens.

If its AFTER, then its simply a sling bullet 4 size categories larger than it was when it was fired. So for a medium creature, you go from 1d4 to 3d6 damage. Nothing gets shunted out the way because the bullet is big before it stops.

Now which of those two versions is chosen will vary (though most will take option 2, as its easier), but it all becomes moot if the caster readies an action to use the command word while the bullet is in the air. The fact that most people wouldnt have the reactions to do that DOES NOT MATTER in D&D, in the same way that the speed you hurl something DOES NOT MATTER in D&D, and the mass of the object you hurl DOES NOT MATTER in D&D. The ONLY thing that matters is the SIZE of the object that hits the target. Thats it. End of.

Whenever anyone wants to use this technique, all that matters is the rock ends up big again before it hits its destination. Either talk to your DM about order of operations, or always ready to command word (a free action one assumes).

[Bronk]

Just looking through old threads like this one:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?166182-Longest-shot-possible

There's a +1 distance magic weapon enhancement, and a druid spell that'll double the range (wind tunnel, druid 5).

The rest is a bunch of special materials for bows only, various kinds of special arrows, and some shenanigans that only work if you're using 3.0 sizing rules.

It looks like your best bet for long range is to optimize the archer:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=7170000&postcount=9

Or to have the epic Distant Shot feat, which removes all range penalties out to infinite range, as long as you can see the target.

[Goaty14]

If you add the aptitude enchantment to the boulders, and take a bunch of archery-related feats/abilities, then you can apply them to the trebuchet.

[daremetoidareyo]

If you add the aptitude enchantment to the boulders, and take a bunch of archery-related feats/abilities, then you can apply them to the trebuchet.

Lol. Hand crossbow focus

[Max Caysey]

Just looking through old threads like this one:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?166182-Longest-shot-possible

There's a +1 distance magic weapon enhancement, and a druid spell that'll double the range (wind tunnel, druid 5).

The rest is a bunch of special materials for bows only, various kinds of special arrows, and some shenanigans that only work if you're using 3.0 sizing rules.

It looks like your best bet for long range is to optimize the archer:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=7170000&postcount=9

Or to have the epic Distant Shot feat, which removes all range penalties out to infinite range, as long as you can see the target.

This was very helpful... In the first link the Cragtop Archer class is mentioned. Would that class' class-abilities work for trebuchet, if the trebuchet was enchanted with aptitude? And if so, how many increments will Arcing Shot (Ex) give the Heavy Trebuchet?

[liquidformat]

you could also look at Arcane Ballista from Magic of Eberron, modify it to be a trebuchet instead of ballista (this change should be fine and not affect the price), cast awaken construct on it, and give it hulking hurler and war hulk prcs. Now you have a walking siege engine with massive str score, that can throw any rock it can pickup and do area damage with them. I have an epic level goliath with a similar build that does something like 4000d6 with each rock. For amo he uses +1 rocks with sizing and returning enchantments. If you want further crazyness Power, then add bloodstorm blade prc to said build.

[Bronk]

This was very helpful... In the first link the Cragtop Archer class is mentioned. Would that class' class-abilities work for trebuchet, if the trebuchet was enchanted with aptitude? And if so, how many increments will Arcing Shot (Ex) give the Heavy Trebuchet?

Thanks!

Yes it would work, but not because of Aptitude, which only works for feats. It's because although the class has 'archer' in the title, all the abilities specify that they work with 'ranged weapons' and 'projectile weapons', which are the same thing, and would include trebuchets. Since everything is working normally, the trebuchet would get the full 15 range increments instead of the normal ten.

[Shalist]

Explosive (Cwar pg134, +3) On hit, additional 5' radius explosion for 2d4 damage.

Blood seeking (Cwar pg134, +1) - ignore cover of target creature (i.e. not a plant/ooze/construct/ship).

Seeking (DMG, +1) - negate miss chance due to concealment (if you hit the right 'hex').

How are you targeting the enemy ships? I assume they'll have clouds of fog, etc., to say nothing of the distances involved. To shotgun a few related / potentially useful spells though:

Touch of adamantine (BoED wiz5, min/lvl) Ignore up to 20 hardness.
Snowsight (FB pg 104, drd/rng1, hr/lvl) Can see normally even in winter whiteout conditions.
Guided Shot (SC pg108, rng/wiz1, 1 round) Negate range penalties.
Near Horizon (CM, ranger2, 3 rounds) Negate range penalties.
Raptor's Sight (RoTW pg 175, rng/drd1, hr/lvl) +5 (competence) spot, and halve range penalties if you have 5+ ranks in spot.
Exacting Shot (SC pg85, ranger2, min/lvl) negate miss chance, autoconfirm crits against favored enemy (i.e. humans on the ship)
Magic Weapon, Greater (DMG, hr/lvl)
Hawkeye (SC pg 110, drd/rng1, 10min/lvl) Range increments increase 50% and +5 (racial) spot bonus. (note that distances are multiplicative (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying), i.e. 1.5 * 1.5 = 2.25)
Sniper's Shot (CA pg 157, rng/wiz/asn1) Next attack can be a sneak attack regardless of the distance.
Easy Math (3.0 'song and silence,' brd0, 1 round) 'Estimate the...distance of a gap, etc., in a flash.' (To help with range finding?)
Dragoneye Rune (DM, wiz2, permanent) "...3x/day you can detect the direction and distance of the marked object or creature from you." (Permanent duration means you can make countless 'trackers' to plant wherever). (edit: to clarify, this might allow targeting the correct hex in spite of fog/darkness/etc, using 'seeking' or exacting shot to negate the miss chance.)

Note that the Horizon Goggles (CM pg 133, 8000g) grant the 'far shot' feat.

'(Spy)Glass of Distance' (SS pg 133, 52,200) lets you see up to 10 miles (and 1/day teleport).

[Max Caysey]

Thanks!

Yes it would work, but not because of Aptitude, which only works for feats. It's because although the class has 'archer' in the title, all the abilities specify that they work with 'ranged weapons' and 'projectile weapons', which are the same thing, and would include trebuchets. Since everything is working normally, the trebuchet would get the full 15 range increments instead of the normal ten.

Thank you... Since a Trebuchet normally only have 5 range increments, do they still receive the full 15 or do they get 5 more than normal?


Explosive (Cwar pg134, +3) On hit, additional 5' radius explosion for 2d4 damage.

Blood seeking (Cwar pg134, +1) - ignore cover of target creature (i.e. not a plant/ooze/construct/ship).

Seeking (DMG, +1) - negate miss chance due to concealment (if you hit the right 'hex').

How are you targeting the enemy ships? I assume they'll have clouds of fog, etc., to say nothing of the distances involved. To shotgun a few related / potentially useful spells though:

Touch of adamantine (BoED wiz5, min/lvl) Ignore up to 20 hardness.
Snowsight (FB pg 104, drd/rng1, hr/lvl) Can see normally even in winter whiteout conditions.
Guided Shot (SC pg108, rng/wiz1, 1 round) Negate range penalties.
Near Horizon (CM, ranger2, 3 rounds) Negate range penalties.
Raptor's Sight (RoTW pg 175, rng/drd1, hr/lvl) +5 (competence) spot, and halve range penalties if you have 5+ ranks in spot.
Exacting Shot (SC pg85, ranger2, min/lvl) negate miss chance, autoconfirm crits against favored enemy (i.e. humans on the ship)
Magic Weapon, Greater (DMG, hr/lvl)
Hawkeye (SC pg 110, drd/rng1, 10min/lvl) Range increments increase 50% and +5 (racial) spot bonus. (note that distances are multiplicative (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying), i.e. 1.5 * 1.5 = 2.25)
Sniper's Shot (CA pg 157, rng/wiz/asn1) Next attack can be a sneak attack regardless of the distance.
Easy Math (3.0 'song and silence,' brd0, 1 round) 'Estimate the...distance of a gap, etc., in a flash.' (To help with range finding?)
Dragoneye Rune (DM, wiz2, permanent) "...3x/day you can detect the direction and distance of the marked object or creature from you." (Permanent duration means you can make countless 'trackers' to plant wherever). (edit: to clarify, this might allow targeting the correct hex in spite of fog/darkness/etc, using 'seeking' or exacting shot to negate the miss chance.)

Note that the Horizon Goggles (CM pg 133, 8000g) grant the 'far shot' feat.

'(Spy)Glass of Distance' (SS pg 133, 52,200) lets you see up to 10 miles (and 1/day teleport).

These are very cool... thank you!

[farothel]

Use "Shrink Item" on whatever it is you intend to fire before firing it. This allows you to fire something while it's the size of a trebuchet stone, and then as it's flying, expands to the size of whatever it was before being shrunk.

Or even better, shrink the regular stones they use to grenade size and fire a bucket load of them in one go. D&D cluster bombs anybody. :smalltongue:

As it's to attack navies long distance, you can hit multiple ships with one shot and still do a lot of damage.

[Bronk]

Thank you... Since a Trebuchet normally only have 5 range increments, do they still receive the full 15 or do they get 5 more than normal?

Well... there's going to have to be some DM adjudication there. I would say the full 15, and here's why.

First, here's where I'm starting from:

The PHB/SRD defines ranged weapons: "Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee." Then they provide a list of common handheld projectile weapons, but is not an exhaustive list. Finally, they define range increments: "Any attack at less than this distance is not penalized for range. However, each full range increment imposes a cumulative –2 penalty on the attack roll. A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments. A projectile weapon can shoot out to ten range increments."

So that's where we're starting from.

Next, we take a few nods from the rules found in the errata files, in this case, paraphrased:

A: Rules found in text take precedence over table entries.

B: Specific exceptions trump general rules.

C: Rules found in primary sources take precedence over those that are not. The ultimate primary sources are the Players Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual, and they're represented in the SRD (I'm away from my books.)

Using those rules:

1: A trebuchet is a projectile weapon (has a range increment, is counted as a type of catapult).

2: Trebuchets seem to only have 5 range increments because they have a maximum range listed in the table on page 67 of the book Heroes of Battle. Although the max range in the table happens to work out to 5 range increments, it doesn't actually say the numbers are linked, and there is no mention of a maximum range anywhere else, specifically in the book's text (table vs. text).

3: The book indicates that trebuchets are counted as a type of catapult, and catapult's default rules are in the SRD, which doesn't list a maximum range, so that defaults back to 10 range increments instead of a set distance (primary source). This is corroborated by the ballista entries, since the book's table erroneously lists a maximum range for them as well, while the primary source - again duplicated in the SRD - does not (also primary source).

4: Looking at the Craigtop Archer ability, it says it grants 15 range increments to the normal ten. (Specific trumps general)

So, that's why I would say yes, you'd get the full 15 range increments from the Craigtop Archer class, and the trebuchet's table entry for a max range is nullified.

However, that was kind of a long way to go, and your DM might come to a different conclusion, so, as always, ask your DM.

[Menzath]

Being a psionic is an alright choice as well. Astral constructs or telekinesis to load the treb, or fun powers from Complete psi like living arrow (affects any projectile to seek a creature you are aware of in weapon range), psychokinetic weapon to animate any weapon, and extend range(doubles range increment, and augments for another range increment increase every axtra 4pp).

I like the extend power since it stacks with the ranged property and far shot. I mean when an animated trebs range increment is 1500ft, and Max range of 7500ft, that's kinda fun, and if you could squeeze in levels of cragtop Archer on top of that, even if it only bumped you to 15000ft that's still a distance that only higher level wizards could do something about.

[Max Caysey]

First I want to thank everyone for their contribution! It has been a huge help!!!

Now I want to share with you the distance I have been able to get so far, with the things I have been looking into. Granted I have not yet gone through every spell and psionic power (which I will though) but here the "so far" numbers.

Heavy trebuchet (range):
Range Increment: 300
Long range: (DM #358) +20
Range Weapon Mastery: +20
Distance Enchantment: x2
Far shot: x1.5
Hawkeye: x1,5
Accuracy: x2
Total: 3060

Cragtop Archer = 15 range increments = 45.900 ft


Heavy Trebuchet (damage):
Weapon Specialization +2
Greater Weapon Specialization +2
Weapon Mastery: +2
Impact: +5
Expert Siege Engineer: +2
Enchantment +5
Total: +18


Would you guys say this is correct or am I missing something here?

Thanks!

[gomipile]

Having the spell Hardening cast on the trebuchet, its spare components, and the walls of its defensive emplacement might be a good idea.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/hardening.htm

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The soulbound weapon ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) for the psychic warrior would allow you to summon trebuchets wherever you want and change their enhancements on the fly. If need be, summon a tiny one with Sizing.

[Bronk]

First I want to thank everyone for their contribution! It has been a huge help!!!

Now I want to share with you the distance I have been able to get so far, with the things I have been looking into. Granted I have not yet gone through every spell and psionic power (which I will though) but here the "so far" numbers.

Heavy trebuchet (range):
Range Increment: 300
Long range: (DM #358) +20
Range Weapon Mastery: +20
Distance Enchantment: x2
Far shot: x1.5
Hawkeye: x1,5
Accuracy: x2
Total: 3060

Cragtop Archer = 15 range increments = 45.900 ft
[/U]



Looks legit!



Heavy Trebuchet (damage):
Weapon Specialization +2
Greater Weapon Specialization +2
Weapon Mastery: +2
Impact: +5
Expert Siege Engineer: +2
Enchantment +5
Total: +18

That adds up too, although I think you want Collision for the +5 to damage instead of Impact, which just adds to the threat rating.

[Max Caysey]

Looks legit!



That adds up too, although I think you want Collision for the +5 to damage instead of Impact, which just adds to the threat rating.

You are absolutely right... that was a typo on my part!!! :smallredface: