Bard ACFs and Heartfire Fanner

[Jowgen]

Hello playground, it's been a while. :smallsmile:

I got a pretty straightforward optimisation issue in front of me and wanted to get ya'lls input.

Rules

So, the Heartfire Fanner (HFF henceforth) bard PrC from Dragon 314 can be entered at level 8 and gets Bardic music @1 subject to the following neat rules:


At 1st level, the heartfire fanner gains the bardic music ability as a 5th-level bard if he did not already have it from a previous class. All the bardic music effects (countersong, fascinate, inspire competence, inspire courage, inspire greatness, inspire heroics, song of freedom, suggestion and mass suggestion) become available to him immediately, subject to their usual Performance skill and level requirements (see Bard). A heartfire fanner's class levels stack with any bard levels for all bardic music calculations, including the number of uses of bardic music available per day. The heartfire fanner with bard levels does not gain the normal bardic music abilities as he advances in heartfire fanner levels.

In this optimisation scenario we're going in from Bard 7, so the first sentence seems irrelevant.

Sentence 2 on the other hand should apply regardless of that, so now matter how many bardic music varieties we had going in, we now gain access to any standard bardic music uses we didn't have going in, subject to our perform ranks and bard level.

The caveat in this is the last sentence, which might carry a bit of a dysfunction with it. Our bard "does not gain the normal bardic music abilities as he advances in HFF levels". The intent seems to be that you don't get e.g. Inspire greatness at Bard 7/HFF 2, even though it's effective bard level 9. But we're supposed to already have access to all bardic music uses, subject to bard level and perform, but this implies that only actual bard levels count... and then when we go back to bard after... and why does it specify 5th level bard in the first place? I am at a bit of a loss on this one, but it's not that central to this optimisation.

Optimisation 1

The main point is the following: by the time we enter HFF, our Bard would organically have gained access to the following Bardic Music uses: Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence & Suggestion.

If we trade these for other abilities via ACFs and Substitution levels, we should get them all back regardless at HFF 1, giving us a nice net gain in abilities.

So first question is what combination of ACFs is the best choice for this? To my knowledge there isn't a no-bardic music variant bard that we could use to just go wholesale, so this is a pick and choose kinda deal.

Optimisation 2

This second one is a bit dirtier (i.e. less likely to fly) than the first. At stage 1 we simply traded out spare bardic music options that we'd gain back, this one is about whether we can trade out the bardic music options we gained back at HFF 1.

I don't think the wording of most ACFs doesn't allow for this but the Eberron Bard feats option might work? The text is as follows.


A bard can take these feats any time she would normally gain a feat, or can choose one of them as a bonus feat instead of gaining a new form of bardic music at 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, or 18th level.

We are a bard, even if we're not taking a bard level. We are gaining a new form of bardic music. Question is whether we can parse a solid argument that we also meet the "gain at x level" requirement, based on the existing stacking rules for HFF.

Assuming this works, the next question is whether we're limited to trading one of the HFF regained bardic musics, or if we could do 2, (i.e. both inspire competence and suggestion), although considering Song of the Heart is arguably the best of the ebberron bard feat lot lot and requires inspire competence, that point might be moot.

So, thoughts? :smallsmile:

[Bronk]

Sentence 2 on the other hand should apply regardless of that, so now matter how many bardic music varieties we had going in, we now gain access to any standard bardic music uses we didn't have going in, subject to our perform ranks and bard level.


Sounds legit so far.



The caveat in this is the last sentence, which might carry a bit of a dysfunction with it. Our bard "does not gain the normal bardic music abilities as he advances in HFF levels". The intent seems to be that you don't get e.g. Inspire greatness at Bard 7/HFF 2, even though it's effective bard level 9. But we're supposed to already have access to all bardic music uses, subject to bard level and perform, but this implies that only actual bard levels count... and then when we go back to bard after... and why does it specify 5th level bard in the first place? I am at a bit of a loss on this one, but it's not that central to this optimisation.

It sounds like they were trying to state the rules, then say that you don't need to get the musical abilities again anyway, because you've already gotten them from HFF.



Optimisation 1

The main point is the following: by the time we enter HFF, our Bard would organically have gained access to the following Bardic Music uses: Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence & Suggestion.

If we trade these for other abilities via ACFs and Substitution levels, we should get them all back regardless at HFF 1, giving us a nice net gain in abilities.

So first question is what combination of ACFs is the best choice for this? To my knowledge there isn't a no-bardic music variant bard that we could use to just go wholesale, so this is a pick and choose kinda deal.


There's a good list here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15169019&postcount=2



Optimisation 2

This second one is a bit dirtier (i.e. less likely to fly) than the first. At stage 1 we simply traded out spare bardic music options that we'd gain back, this one is about whether we can trade out the bardic music options we gained back at HFF 1.

I don't think the wording of most ACFs doesn't allow for this but the Eberron Bard feats option might work? The text is as follows.

We are a bard, even if we're not taking a bard level. We are gaining a new form of bardic music. Question is whether we can parse a solid argument that we also meet the "gain at x level" requirement, based on the existing stacking rules for HFF.


Given the wording, you'd be all set if you just took another level of bard before hitting HFF, so that you'd take it as the ninth level. You're a bard, you've just gained the musics, you're level 9... Technically, you're good to go.



Assuming this works, the next question is whether we're limited to trading one of the HFF regained bardic musics, or if we could do 2, (i.e. both inspire competence and suggestion), although considering Song of the Heart is arguably the best of the ebberron bard feat lot lot and requires inspire competence, that point might be moot.


There's nothing in the rule you quoted from taking more than one at a time. It's just that that's how it happens to work for a straight bard.

[Jowgen]

Sounds legit so far.

Nice.


It sounds like they were trying to state the rules, then say that you don't need to get the musical abilities again anyway, because you've already gotten them from HFF.

Excellent. A simple reading that does away with all the dysfunctional mess in one fell swoop. Thank you kindly.


There's a good list here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15169019&postcount=2

I am familiar, and did also check the Dragon mag one, and I did have some thoughts I suppose I might as well share.

Soothing Voice seems like the best countersong trade by far, but is half-elf only. Mimicking Song is a neat alternative.

Fascinate seems to only be trade-able for Healing Hymn, which I guess is something

Trading out Inspire Courage is generally a terrible idea, but since we're getting it back anyways we can swap it for Inspire Awe, which might be handy.

Inspire Competence we either keep to qualify for Song of the Heart, or get the Spellscale-only Inspire Arcana (because more CL can always be handy), or Planar Inspiration. Both are good upgrades.

For Suggestion, I think Planar Dissonance is the best choice. It is just such a unique ability that even if only gets used once can bring much hilarity. Repel Domination can


Given the wording, you'd be all set if you just took another level of bard before hitting HFF, so that you'd take it as the ninth level. You're a bard, you've just gained the musics, you're level 9... Technically, you're good to go.

That does seem like a safe option, but I'm not sure delaying entry a level is worth it. Alas, I do not see a way around the apparent RAW here... :smallannoyed:


There's nothing in the rule you quoted from taking more than one at a time. It's just that that's how it happens to work for a straight bard.

I suppose that is fair, though really it'll depend on how the above works out.

[kulosle]

oh I love bards. I can't believe I never realized this wording. very good. I wonder if this would fly in my play group. we are a pretty high opt group but this might be too much

[Jowgen]

It has come to my attention that I got missed notable in the OP: while there aren't any variant bards that straight up don't get bardic music, there is the Nature Bard from UA, which looses Bardic Knowledge as well as Inspire Courage/Competence/Greatness/Heroics.

For that you mainly get a Druid animal companion, which can be quite good.

In itself it's not the best of trades, as the only other things you gain are nature sense, resist nature's lure and wild empathy, although they can in turn be ACFed for other stuff that might situationaly be good in a build. Also, you do skill keep Countersong, Fascinate, Suggestion and Song of Freedom; so Soothing Voice, Mimicking Song, Healing Hymn, Repel Domination and levels 6 and 12 of Planar Bard are still on the table.

[Nifft]

Hmm, potential snag if your DM doesn't like cheese.

The section on gaining Bard music ends with this:



The heartfire fanner with bard levels does not gain the normal bardic music abilities as he advances in heartfire fanner levels.


... which might mean that you don't get to re-up all your normal bardic music abilities -- or indeed gain any normal bardic music abilities -- from Heartfire Fanner.

[Jowgen]

Hmm, potential snag if your DM doesn't like cheese.

The section on gaining Bard music ends with this:


The heartfire fanner with bard levels does not gain the normal bardic music abilities as he advances in heartfire fanner levels.

... which might mean that you don't get to re-up all your normal bardic music abilities -- or indeed gain any normal bardic music abilities -- from Heartfire Fanner.

That did concern me, but Bronk's provided what I consider a very sensible reading for this one


It sounds like they were trying to state the rules, then say that you don't need to get the musical abilities again anyway, because you've already gotten them from HFF.

It very much fits with how these kinds of entries are written. They do love to re-state the obvious at the end for formality; i.e. "you only get Bardic music options @ HFF 1, not when your HFF and Bard levels add up to the Bard level where you'd normally unlock them. It's a moot point since you already have access, but we're gonna state it anyway"

Another reading way to read it is that you only get access to access to Bardic music options appropriate to your actual bard level, so that a Bard 8/HFF 1 wouldn't gain access to Inspire Greatness, because he doesn't meet the Bard level = 9 requirement. Though then we get to the dysfunction why it's called out as something you gain access to.

Or it can indeed be read to directly contradict itself like you said, which considering it's Dragon mag might actually be how it's written.

[Nifft]

That did concern me, but Bronk's provided what I consider a very sensible reading for this one



It very much fits with how these kinds of entries are written. They do love to re-state the obvious at the end for formality; i.e. "you only get Bardic music options @ HFF 1, not when your HFF and Bard levels add up to the Bard level where you'd normally unlock them. It's a moot point since you already have access, but we're gonna state it anyway"

Another reading way to read it is that you only get access to access to Bardic music options appropriate to your actual bard level, so that a Bard 8/HFF 1 wouldn't gain access to Inspire Greatness, because he doesn't meet the Bard level = 9 requirement. Though then we get to the dysfunction why it's called out as something you gain access to.

Or it can indeed be read to directly contradict itself like you said, which considering it's Dragon mag might actually be how it's written.

Hmm. It looks like it's saying the opposite to me.

The first line says: "You get these benefits if you were not a Bard already." The last bit says: "You don't get normal Bard benefits if you were a Bard already."

The stuff in between those lines may be imperfectly written, but those two lines seem to show an intention to give basic Bard powers to a non-Bard, and to give only Heartfire Fanner powers to a pre-existing Bard -- which is weird, since it's significantly worse to enter as a Bard, and Bards were significantly less powerful than Wizards already, but whatever.

The text says you explicitly don't get a particular benefit. I think explicit denial overrides implicit permission, and does not confirm it.


It kinda seems like that reasoning could be used to turn any explicit denial into a sideways confirmation -- and that can't be right.

[Bronk]

Hmm. It looks like it's saying the opposite to me.

The first line says: "You get these benefits if you were not a Bard already." The last bit says: "You don't get normal Bard benefits if you were a Bard already."

The stuff in between those lines may be imperfectly written, but those two lines seem to show an intention to give basic Bard powers to a non-Bard, and to give only Heartfire Fanner powers to a pre-existing Bard -- which is weird, since it's significantly worse to enter as a Bard, and Bards were significantly less powerful than Wizards already, but whatever.

The text says you explicitly don't get a particular benefit. I think explicit denial overrides implicit permission, and does not confirm it.

It kinda seems like that reasoning could be used to turn any explicit denial into a sideways confirmation -- and that can't be right.

I disagree, because these are four individual statements that don't relate to each other directly. Also, you're paraphrasing the first and last statements too much. For example, the first line doesn't say "You get these benefits if you were not a Bard already", it specifically talking about the abilities of a 5th level bard, not being a bard, or a lesser level of bard, at all. Also, the last statement doesn't say, "You don't get normal Bard benefits if you were a Bard already," it says you don't gain more after level one of this class.


So, keeping in mind the prereqs for HFF, which are: 2 feats (Negotiator and Skill Focus (Perform)), Perform 10, Diplomacy 10, guild membership, and the ability to cast 1st level arcane spells, we can enter HFF with a number of different class combos, including not being a bard at all (the guild was started by bards, but that isn't a requirement for entry).

The statements:


At 1st level, the heartfire fanner gains the bardic music ability as a 5th-level bard if he did not already have it from a previous class.

The abilities of a Fifth level bard includes Bardic Knowledge, 5 uses of Bardic Music (Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence), and, interestingly bardic spellcasting. This is separate from the later statements, because they explicitly give you more Bardic Music options than this.

If you had fewer than five uses of bardic music, you now have at least 5 before counting new ones from HFF. The bardic spellcasting is interesting, because if you entered with some other class that grants 1st level arcane spells, like a sorcerer, you just got the 5th level bard spell progression, up to second level bard spells, dropped on you.


All the bardic music effects (countersong, fascinate, inspire competence, inspire courage, inspire greatness, inspire heroics, song of freedom, suggestion and mass suggestion) become available to him immediately, subject to their usual Performance skill and level requirements (see Bard).

This is separate from the first statement, because it's giving you more than what a 5th level bard would have, then it refers you to the main bard entry for usage requirements.


A heartfire fanner's class levels stack with any bard levels for all bardic music calculations, including the number of uses of bardic music available per day.

If you qualified via classes other than bard, or with fewer than 5 bard levels, not only would you get up to five additional bardic music uses from this statement, but your minimum bard level would now be 5 + HFF levels.

Also, there are no level requirements for bardic music abilities, only perform skill rank level limits... HFF is 3.5, but the rules were the same in 3.0 as well.


The heartfire fanner with bard levels does not gain the normal bardic music abilities as he advances in heartfire fanner levels.

This is the last of the disconnected statements, and it has zero value. By stating that a PC with HFF levels doesn't gain any normal bardic music abilities when they advance in HFF levels, it's stating the obvious: not only do they not need them, since they just got them all at level one, but the class never says they get them again anyway. That's just not something that's in the stat block.

Interestingly, it also doesn't say that they don't get them again if they go back to taking bard levels instead of HFF levels.


So, here's where we stand after all of that:

The first sentence gives you way more than they probably intended, but that's on them.

The second sentence gives you all bardic music abilities at once, even if you don't have a high enough Perform skill to use them yet.

The third sentence has no meaning whatsoever.

The fourth sentence likewise has no meaning, by telling you what you already knew by looking at the statblock and reading the rest of the entry: HFF levels 2 through 5 don't give you any more music abilities. It doesn't, however, restrict you from gaining them again later by taking bard levels in the future.

[OgresAreCute]

The abilities of a Fifth level bard includes Bardic Knowledge, 5 uses of Bardic Music (Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence), and, interestingly bardic spellcasting. This is separate from the later statements, because they explicitly give you more Bardic Music options than this.


The quote you posted said bardic music ability. That means you don't get spellcasting or bardic knowledge.

[Nifft]

I disagree, because these are four individual statements that don't relate to each other directly. Also, you're paraphrasing the first and last statements too much. For example, the first line doesn't say "You get these benefits if you were not a Bard already", it specifically talking about the abilities of a 5th level bard, not being a bard, or a lesser level of bard, at all. Also, the last statement doesn't say, "You don't get normal Bard benefits if you were a Bard already," it says you don't gain more after level one of this class.

So, keeping in mind the prereqs for HFF, which are: 2 feats (Negotiator and Skill Focus (Perform)), Perform 10, Diplomacy 10, guild membership, and the ability to cast 1st level arcane spells, we can enter HFF with a number of different class combos, including not being a bard at all (the guild was started by bards, but that isn't a requirement for entry).

The statements:

The abilities of a Fifth level bard includes Bardic Knowledge, 5 uses of Bardic Music (Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence), and, interestingly bardic spellcasting. This is separate from the later statements, because they explicitly give you more Bardic Music options than this.

If you had fewer than five uses of bardic music, you now have at least 5 before counting new ones from HFF. The bardic spellcasting is interesting, because if you entered with some other class that grants 1st level arcane spells, like a sorcerer, you just got the 5th level bard spell progression, up to second level bard spells, dropped on you.

This is separate from the first statement, because it's giving you more than what a 5th level bard would have, then it refers you to the main bard entry for usage requirements.



If you qualified via classes other than bard, or with fewer than 5 bard levels, not only would you get up to five additional bardic music uses from this statement, but your minimum bard level would now be 5 + HFF levels.

Also, there are no level requirements for bardic music abilities, only perform skill rank level limits... HFF is 3.5, but the rules were the same in 3.0 as well.



This is the last of the disconnected statements, and it has zero value. By stating that a PC with HFF levels doesn't gain any normal bardic music abilities when they advance in HFF levels, it's stating the obvious: not only do they not need them, since they just got them all at level one, but the class never says they get them again anyway. That's just not something that's in the stat block.

Interestingly, it also doesn't say that they don't get them again if they go back to taking bard levels instead of HFF levels.


So, here's where we stand after all of that:

The first sentence gives you way more than they probably intended, but that's on them.

The second sentence gives you all bardic music abilities at once, even if you don't have a high enough Perform skill to use them yet.

The third sentence has no meaning whatsoever.

The fourth sentence likewise has no meaning, by telling you what you already knew by looking at the statblock and reading the rest of the entry: HFF levels 2 through 5 don't give you any more music abilities. It doesn't, however, restrict you from gaining them again later by taking bard levels in the future.

It's telling that you need to deny that half the sentences have any meaning at all for your interpretation to stand up. Obviously you're wrong about that -- all the sentences have meaning, and any interpretation must be valid for all the rules text, not just half of it.

Thus, I think you're saying several incorrect things.


The first and second sentences are a single unit of meaning. The second sentence can only apply to an ability that is being granted, and the first sentence sets the conditions for granting that ability.



Bardic Music: At 1st level, the heartfire fanner gains the bardic music ability as a 5th-level bard if he did not already have it from a previous class. All the bardic music effects (countersong, fascinate, inspire competence, inspire courage, inspire greatness, inspire heroics, song of freedom, suggestion and mass suggestion) become available to him immediately, subject to their usual Performance skill and level requirements (see Bard). A heartfire fanner's class levels stack with any bard levels for all bardic music calculations, including the number of uses of bardic music available per day. The heartfire fanner with bard levels does not gain the normal bardic music abilities as he advances in heartfire fanner levels.


To paraphrase:
- If you weren't a Bard, you instantly get 5 levels of Bardic music abilities; the specific abilities are discussed in the second sentence. Then, you stack HF levels with these abilities, gaining more as your Perform skill and effective Bard level permit. You get the HF class music abilities in addition to the basic Bard abilities, which is unusually awesome.
- If you were a Bard, you stack HF levels with your Bard levels for "all bardic music calculations, including the number of uses", but you don't get the normal Bardic music abilities from advancing through HF. If you return to Bard after, your Bard level is just your Bard level -- you can't get Bardic music abilities from advancing through HF, so you don't get them afterwards either. This seems like a bad deal compared to what you'd get by NOT being a Bard, but hey, you're a Bard -- this isn't your first bad deal.


The Bard who advances through the first level of HF is explicitly forbidden from gaining "the normal bardic music abilities", therefore it's not valid to assert that a Bard can instantly gain the thing which is forbidden.



Secondly, you're wrong about how the core Bard works. Most of the basic Bardic music effects have a level requirement; many of them also do care about Bard level. Here are some examples:



Inspire Competence (Su) A bard of 3rd level or higher with 6 or more ranks in a Perform skill can (...)

Suggestion (Sp) A bard of 6th level or higher with 9 or more ranks in a Perform skill can (...)

Inspire Greatness (Su) A bard of 9th level or higher with 12 or more ranks in a Perform skill can (...)

Song of Freedom (Sp) A bard of 12th level or higher with 15 or more ranks in a Perform skill can (...)

Inspire Heroics (Su)A bard of 15th level or higher with 18 or more ranks in a Perform skill can (...)



Thirdly, you seem to think the Bardic Music ability somehow grants spellcasting. Is that a joke, or are you seriously making that claim?

[Bronk]

The quote you posted said bardic music ability. That means you don't get spellcasting or bardic knowledge.

Ahh, good point. I got over eager there, thanks!


you're wrong about how the core Bard works. Most of the basic Bardic music effects have a level requirement; many of them also do care about Bard level. Here are some examples:

you seem to think the Bardic Music ability somehow grants spellcasting. Is that a joke, or are you seriously making that claim?

Yes, that was a bit of a rush job, and thanks for pointing that out, even if OgresAreCute was nicer about it.


It's telling that you need to deny that half the sentences have any meaning at all for your interpretation to stand up. Obviously you're wrong about that -- all the sentences have meaning, and any interpretation must be valid for all the rules text, not just half of it.

I'm not taking responsibility for Dragon Magazine's propensity for weird content editing or awkward phrasing. For example, the fourth sentence there is there just note items that aren't on the stat block, which isn't necessary.



Thus, I think you're saying several incorrect things.

The first and second sentences are a single unit of meaning. The second sentence can only apply to an ability that is being granted, and the first sentence sets the conditions for granting that ability.

It does not refer to the second sentence, because that doesn't restrict itself to the 5th level bard abilities that the first sentence mentions... as you noted, they go all the way up to level 18 abilities.



To paraphrase:
- If you weren't a Bard, you instantly get 5 levels of Bardic music abilities; the specific abilities are discussed in the second sentence. Then, you stack HF levels with these abilities, gaining more as your Perform skill and effective Bard level permit. You get the HF class music abilities in addition to the basic Bard abilities, which is unusually awesome.

Here, you're missing something in your paraphrasing again. What is says is: You get level 5 bardic music abilities if you don't already have them from a previous class. So, if you were a bard previously, but only had 1 level, did you get 5 levels worth of bardic music abilities from that? No. So now you get them.


Then, you stack HF levels with these abilities, gaining more as your Perform skill and effective Bard level permit.

Sentence four specifically says you don't get your normal bardic music abilities as you level, instead, you get all of them up front, including copies of ones you may have already gained previously - or just gained again in the first sentence - and only gain access to them later.


You get the HF class music abilities in addition to the basic Bard abilities, which is unusually awesome.

Yes, this awesomeness featured heavily in Jowgen's original post.



- If you were a Bard, you stack HF levels with your Bard levels for "all bardic music calculations, including the number of uses", but you don't get the normal Bardic music abilities from advancing through HF.

I agree with this statement. Everything you got from HFF, you got at level 1.


If you return to Bard after, your Bard level is just your Bard level -- you can't get Bardic music abilities from advancing through HF, so you don't get them afterwards either. This seems like a bad deal compared to what you'd get by NOT being a Bard, but hey, you're a Bard -- this isn't your first bad deal.

The Bard who advances through the first level of HF is explicitly forbidden from gaining "the normal bardic music abilities", therefore it's not valid to assert that a Bard can instantly gain the thing which is forbidden

This isn't right though... if you look back on it, you'll see that there's no restriction given for the levels not still stacking afterwards.

Plus, HFF isn't preventing you from gaining more bardic music abilities when you aren't taking levels of the class, just when you are (last part of the fourth sentence there), so yes, once you start taking regular bard levels again (or for the first time, whatever), you gain all of that class's abilities as normal, meaning that either you unnecessarily have the ability twice, or you can trade them away as you get them with the Eberron options that came into existence a year later.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Optimization 1 is pretty safe, in my opinion. It's a cool way to gain Inspire Awe on that second Champion of Gwynharwyf build I mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23356642&postcount=12). You'd be able to escalate from nothing to frightened in a standard + free action, and that to all enemies within 30'. Song of the White Raven lets you get Inspire Courage up on the same turn.

Optimization 2 might sink if "level" is read as "class level"--which is sometimes required to make sense of the rules. Just as an aside, I don't think that needs to hold us back here.

I agree with Bronk that you can definitely trade out HFF music types for bonus feats if your first HFF level is at one of the listed levels. Delaying HFF by one level for five to nine bonus feats is probably a good deal. On a straight bard, I would probably be happy to give up anything besides Inspire Courage to get more feats, but then I prefer martial bards.

[Nifft]

Sentence four specifically says you don't get your normal bardic music abilities as you level, instead, you get all of them up front How do you propose to get the features of HFF level 1 without gaining them by leveling through HFF?

HFF level 1 is a level of HFF.


I agree with this statement. Everything you got from HFF, you got at level 1. I don't see a way you can agree with that statement and disagree with my conclusion.


This isn't right though... if you look back on it, you'll see that there's no restriction given for the levels not still stacking afterwards. There certainly is: you don't get normal benefits by advancing through HFF levels. You can't stack Bard and HFF levels for that purpose because you'd be trying to gain something through HFF advancement which is prohibited.

It's weird but taking any Bard levels prevents you from stacking HFF levels in that way. Yet if you had zero Bard levels, you could totally stack HFF levels in exactly the same way. Not how I would have written the class: it's weird and it punishes Bards (who don't need nerfs), but that's what it says.

You could go in as a Sorcerer or Wizard -> HFF 5 to get the effects of Bardic music up to level 9 or 10, depending on how HFF counts its first level. Then you could take a PrC which stacks to get a higher effective Bard level -- assuming you never take any Bard levels, of course.


Plus, HFF isn't preventing you from gaining more bardic music abilities when you aren't taking levels of the class, just when you are (last part of the fourth sentence there), so yes, once you start taking regular bard levels again (or for the first time, whatever), you gain all of that class's abilities as normal, meaning that either you unnecessarily have the ability twice, or you can trade them away as you get them with the Eberron options that came into existence a year later. You can take Bard levels after and get more advanced Bardic music abilities later, but you would not count your HFF levels as Bard levels for the purpose of qualification. So you'd be delayed by a bit, but not prevented, and you would stack Bard + HFF for non-qualification calculations because it says you can do that.


Yes, that was a bit of a rush job, and thanks for pointing that out, even if OgresAreCute was nicer about it. Feel free to reply later if there's not sufficient time for a good reply right now -- this isn't really time-critical, and there's no need to rush.

I will note that having to spend my time documenting and correcting your basic rule errors doesn't give me confidence that you're more informed than I am about esoteric rule interactions. If that makes me seem unkind, please accept that it's not intended.

[Jowgen]

I love it when a thread really gets going. :smallsmile:

Issue 1 is the relation between sentence 1 and 2. I think the best way to sort this is to parse it down and see how fits together.

Sentence 1 has 3 parts: a) time when benefit comes into effect (level 1) b) description of benefit gained (Bard 5 bardic music), and c) a condition for gaining this benefit (not having bard 5 bardic music)

Sentence 2 has the same 3 parts but in different order: a) description of benefit gained (access to all bardic music types), b) time when benefit is gained (immediately), and c) a condition for gaining this benefit (conditions as bard).

So we having Time x Benefit x Conditions in both sentences.

For Times, 2-b and 1-a are identical, in that "at first level" and "immediately" are the same.
For Benefits, 2-a and 1-b overlap but are distinct, in that having "Bard 5 Bardic Music" is not the same as "access to all bardic music types".
For Conditions, 1-c and 2-c are categorically distinct, with one requiring the absence of something while the other refers to a separate set of rules of conditions.

Nifft's position is that the 1-c Condition applies to the 2-a Benefit.

I personally do not see it. Each sentence works on its own, with no need to refer to another to be able to understand their meaning or to apply the relevant rules. You could take either one out of the text entry and the ability would still work as either sentence specifies. Main thing though is that 2-a has it's own condition specified, in that gaining gaining "access to all bardic music" is specifically subject to the "conditions as bard", with no mention of also being subject to "conditions as HFF without bard levels".

One as of yet unaddressed part of this whole thing is that the not having "bardic music ability as a 5th-level bard" condition is actually quite vague. We are assuming that trading away one of your standard bardic music abilities, e.g. for an Eberron feat, or taking a variant class' bardic music, does not change whether one counts as having "bardic music ability as a 5th-level bard", but why would that be? If rules say we gain "bardic music ability as a 5th-level bard" then we know we are gaining the standard PHB bard abilities, as opposed to the UA nature bard or dragon mag Harbinger bard abilities. We should we have different assumptions in regards to what it means when gaining as opposed to when needing to qualify?

I think there is actually an argument to be made that Benefit 1-c also applies to restore individual traded away bard bardic music abilities. In which case, meeting the 1-c Conditions as Nifft considers nessecary becomes trivial.


For completeness:

Sentence 3 is simply stacking rules, and I don't think has any bearing on the current debate.

Regarding sentence 4, I just realised, isn't "advance in levels" a defined rules term that specifically describes gaining additional level beyond 1st? If so, I'm pretty sure the point is moot.

[Bronk]

How do you propose to get the features of HFF level 1 without gaining them by leveling through HFF?

HFF level 1 is a level of HFF.


Because the line only comes into effect after the first HFF level, as stated by the first part of the line:


The heartfire fanner with bard levels does not gain the normal bardic music abilities as he advances in heartfire fanner levels.

You can't be a HFF with bard levels if you aren't already a HFF, and you can't be a HFF if you haven't taken the first level yet.



I don't see a way you can agree with that statement and disagree with my conclusion.

Because you somehow came to a conclusion that HFF no longer stacks. There's nothing that says that here. You still have a higher effective level of bardic music when you go back to taking bard levels, and more uses, but you'd only get the bardic musics at the actual bard level as normal, not the effective level. These aren't bloodline levels.



There certainly is: you don't get normal benefits by advancing through HFF levels. You can't stack Bard and HFF levels for that purpose because you'd be trying to gain something through HFF advancement which is prohibited.

It's weird but taking any Bard levels prevents you from stacking HFF levels in that way. Yet if you had zero Bard levels, you could totally stack HFF levels in exactly the same way. Not how I would have written the class: it's weird and it punishes Bards (who don't need nerfs), but that's what it says.

You could go in as a Sorcerer or Wizard -> HFF 5 to get the effects of Bardic music up to level 9 or 10, depending on how HFF counts its first level. Then you could take a PrC which stacks to get a higher effective Bard level -- assuming you never take any Bard levels, of course.

Again, HFF only restricts you from gaining new bardic music abilities while you're advancing in HFF levels, not any other time, because that's what it says here:


The heartfire fanner with bard levels does not gain the normal bardic music abilities as he advances in heartfire fanner levels.



You can take Bard levels after and get more advanced Bardic music abilities later, but you would not count your HFF levels as Bard levels for the purpose of qualification. So you'd be delayed by a bit, but not prevented, and you would stack Bard + HFF for non-qualification calculations because it says you can do that.

There you go! Stick with this interpretation, that's what I've been saying all this time. I'm hoping the rest has been a misunderstanding.



Feel free to reply later if there's not sufficient time for a good reply right now -- this isn't really time-critical, and there's no need to rush.

I'm good, but thanks.



I will note that having to spend my time documenting and correcting your basic rule errors doesn't give me confidence that you're more informed than I am about esoteric rule interactions.

I know I left myself wide open by forgetting for a bit that the section started by specifying 'bardic music', but feel free to hold back.


If that makes me seem unkind, please accept that it's not intended.

Thanks. I'll try, but you should know that it's difficult when you've already noted that your words make you seem unkind, yet say them anyway.



I personally do not see it. Each sentence works on its own, with no need to refer to another to be able to understand their meaning or to apply the relevant rules. You could take either one out of the text entry and the ability would still work as either sentence specifies. Main thing though is that 2-a has it's own condition specified, in that gaining gaining "access to all bardic music" is specifically subject to the "conditions as bard", with no mention of also being subject to "conditions as HFF without bard levels".

...

Sentence 3 is simply stacking rules, and I don't think has any bearing on the current debate.

Regarding sentence 4, I just realised, isn't "advance in levels" a defined rules term that specifically describes gaining additional level beyond 1st? If so, I'm pretty sure the point is moot.

That's my reading too.



One as of yet unaddressed part of this whole thing is that the not having "bardic music ability as a 5th-level bard" condition is actually quite vague. We are assuming that trading away one of your standard bardic music abilities, e.g. for an Eberron feat, or taking a variant class' bardic music, does not change whether one counts as having "bardic music ability as a 5th-level bard", but why would that be? If rules say we gain "bardic music ability as a 5th-level bard" then we know we are gaining the standard PHB bard abilities, as opposed to the UA nature bard or dragon mag Harbinger bard abilities. We should we have different assumptions in regards to what it means when gaining as opposed to when needing to qualify?

If you're talking about qualifying, bardic music isn't necessary for getting into HFF, just that list of feats, skills, guild membership, and being able to cast first level arcane spells.

If you're talking about what you get, my reading is that you get every bardic music ability up to level 5, and up to 5 bardic music uses. (Followed immediately after by all bardic music abilities of a regular bard.)

[Jowgen]

If you're talking about what you get, my reading is that you get every bardic music ability up to level 5, and up to 5 bardic music uses. (Followed immediately after by all bardic music abilities of a regular bard.)

Well then this in itself renders the issue of the sentence 1 vs sentence 2 practically moot.

All that is required is to take a single bardic Music ACF, so that upon entry into HFF we are missing part of the Bardic Music Ability of a 5th level bard. The requirement of sentence 1 is met, the benefit of sentence 1 replaces that bardic music type, and we have an extra piece of bardic music to trade out for Ebberron feats. I'm pretty sure that so long as we enter at character level 9, this gives enough redundancy so we can get every single one of those, for what they're worth (assuming of course that piece of RAW abuse flies).

Now you and Nifft are welcome to debate the issue further on principle. Personally I would prefer to get back to deliberations on what the best combination of ACFs to take is, but you do you. :smallsmile:

[Nifft]

I see I've been looking at this in the wrong way. You're not trying to play a game, this is theory.


In that case:

- The musical ability of a level 5 Bard is poorly defined. Therefore you get every ability which could be related to music, including 8 ranks in every Perform skill and 8 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill which could relate to music.

- The rules don't say that your new bonus skill ranks don't stack, therefore they do stack. You now have up to 18 ranks in various Perform skills, which may be enough to get you new Bardic music abilities.

- Bards probably invest like 40% of their WBL in magical music stuff, so you get that much gear for free.

- You immediately get the musical ability of a level 5 Bard, but no text requires that you actually play or sing the music yourself. Therefore you can invoke Bardic music without occupying your own hands or mouth. In fact there's no way to turn this off, so it's just constantly swirling around you, giving everyone a bonus, and luckily there's no rule that you can't sleep through Bardic Music so therefore you can.



There you go. Hopefully I'm in the right spirit of things now.

[Jowgen]

Is it that you disagree with my working definition of "bardic music ability as a 5th-level bard"?

I personally define it as the set of abilities that "fall under the category of bardic music" that are available to a creature with 5 levels of Bard according to Table 3-4 in the PHB (including level-dependent uses per day) subject to the limitation that "if a bard does not have the required number of ranks in at least one Perform skill, he does not gain the bardic music ability until he acquires the needed ranks."

Or more simply: having access to Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage +1 and Inspire Competence (upon meeting prerequesites) with minimum 5 uses per day.

Or is it that you disagree with my reading that missing access one or more of these abilities equates to no longer having "bardic music ability as a 5th-level bard"?

[Bronk]

get back to deliberations on what the best combination of ACFs to take is

I'm thinking... the Gnome ACFs (for the mental and anti-fear abilities), the Planar bard ACFs (good for travel) , with any remainder music duplicates (or music abilities you just don't want) being converted to feats with the Eberron bard ACF, with any duplicates of those feats converted to whatever with Dark Chaos Shuffle, if that's allowed.

[Jowgen]

After some though I have decided on a Half-Elf Spellscale.

Bard 1: Countersong -> Soothing Voice (Half Elf Substitution)
Bard 1: Fascinate -> Healing Hymn (CC)
Bard 1: Inspire Courage -> Inspire Awe (DrM)
Bard 3: Inspire Competence
Bard 6: Suggestion -> Planar Dissonance (PlH)
HFF 1: Countersong -> Mimicking Song (DS)
HFF 1: Fascinate
HFF 1: Inspire Courage
HFF 1: Inspire Competence -> Song of the Heart (ECS)
HFF 1: Suggestion -> Haunting Melody (ECS)

This set up relies on the following DM-judgement assumptions:
- Soothing Voice is retained after the Rite of Spellscale Assumption (may not, asked the RAW thread)
- HFF Bardic music types are valid ACF targets as they would be for a bard
- For Eberron feat ACF, only Bardic Music types that are normally gained at bard 3, 6, 9 etc. are valid trades

I chose to do things this way to keep the mechanics simple and the rule sets consistent. The HFF bardic music types are treated just as gaining the same class features again as a bard would, so ACF (but not substitution levels) can be applied as normal. No additional gain from the "as bard 5" sentence, Inspire Competence required for Song of the Heart as per RAW, no chaos shuffle.

As for the choice of selection, Fascinate and Soothing Voice serve stall/ de-escalate situations. Inspire Awe synergizes with Haunting Melody for fear stacking, the latter benefiting from Song of the Heart. Planr Dissonance is cool utility unhindered by mind-affecting immunity. Healing Humn and Mimicking Song are there because they can be.

The choice of Spellscale is not for ACFs but because the Metamagic feats available through their Blood-Quickening meditations are written as being grant-able to party casters through Inspired Fight, which then further synergizes with Magic Flare.