Playing a high-op character in a low-op party

[Emperor Ing]

So i'm in a 3.5 game at level 8. My character is a Tiny sized Swordsage, has 70 hp, 28 AC, and can reliably deal 30 damage a round, with potential for far higher damage. Most of the other characters struggle to even land a hit, and when they do, it's only roughly 10 damage. Suffice to say, there is a HUGE power imbalance in the party where my character greatly outshines the other PCs.

What do? The GM is strongly considering swinging the nerfbat at me, and for obvious reasons i'd like to avoid that as much as possible. What are some recommendations or suggestions I can give that would allow the rest of the party to contribute more-or-less fairly to a fight? Is a nerf justified? Should I retire the character completely and make something less OP?

[trollburgers]

I guess my first question is why does the rest of the party suck so badly? At 8th level, even a normal, core Barbarian or Fighter should be hitting a lot more often for a lot more damage.

[Manyasone]

I guess my first question is why does the rest of the party suck so badly? At 8th level, even a normal, core Barbarian or Fighter should be hitting a lot more often for a lot more damage.

What he said. 10 damage? Hardly hitting? At lvl 8? What the hells, dude, that is beating low OP. What's the party set-up

[Arael666]

I guess my first question is why does the rest of the party suck so badly? At 8th level, even a normal, core Barbarian or Fighter should be hitting a lot more often for a lot more damage.

This! Even with no feats or items a raging barbarian with 16 str should have a +13 to hit (assuming he started with 15 str and spent his lvl 4 ability point in str) and 2d6+7 damge (wich averages to 14). It really sounds like that you are not high op at all, it's just the the other party member are hopelsly low OP, borderline intentionally bad.

If you can tell us more details on their builds and strategies we can give you better advice than that.

[Nifft]

Yeah I'm with basically everyone.

Hitting in melee is NOT high-OP.

High-OP is when you're level 8 and you never participate in melee because you're safe on your private demi-plane while your Cohort's Familiar engages in combat in your place -- and it's using UMD from range while invisible, of course, not engaging in melee either.


If your party mates have character concepts like "suck at chosen job" then all is well and nothing needs to change. If they're trying to be good at their jobs, then they need to step it up and do a bit of reading -- send them links to basic build guides, or send them here.

[Goaty14]

Apply your optimization strategies to the other players to make them... not suck? Better put, instead of the DM hitting you with the nerf bat, hit everybody else with a buffstick?

Either that or just decline how much you take the stage (i.e being in "reserve" for most combats, or purposefully playing suboptimally "muahaha, now I use spring attack!"

[MrSandman]

I second what others have said about knowing your party's setup.

One thing worth considering, though, if you're the only one using a ToB class (and you might not be), then it's very likely that you're going to outshine other martial classes.

[MeimuHakurei]

Just for reference, here's some relevant statistics for a level-appropriate monster, a Stone Giant (who is little more than a typical melee brute):

119 HP (avg)
25 AC
+17/+12 Greatclub attacks for 2d8+12 damage (avg 21 per hit)
+22 to grapples
+13 Fortitude, +6 Reflex, +7 Will saves

So my verdict, too, is that your group is really weak - your numbers seem fairly standard-op to me and I assume your Swordsage manuevers will help you overcome a CR 8 monster like a Stone Giant. Care to share some details on the others?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Generally the unwritten rule is that the high-op player comforms to the rest of the party.
In this case though there's certainly room to talk to the other players about rebuilding their characters to be stronger (or at least achieve basic competency) since i can't imagine they're having much fun if they're struggling that much.
What you're describing is less low-op and more people who have no idea of even the basics of character building.


I second what others have said about knowing your party's setup.

One thing worth considering, though, if you're the only one using a ToB class (and you might not be), then it's very likely that you're going to outshine other martial classes.

That's only true in low-op games. ToB classes just have a higher floor. You really can't **** them up as long as you manage to put your highest ability score into strength, even if you pick your maneuvers at random. They're basically moderately pre-optimized.
A well build non-ToB martial can keep up easily enough, though he can of course still benefit from picking up utility maneuvers with a dip or two.
It's just that messing up on building one is really easy for beginners because they don't know that sword & board sucks, what feats to take and so on. Then you get a character that has trouble hitting and only does single-digit damage.

[Thurbane]

I would say there are basically two viable options: tone your character (or make a new one more in line with the rest of the party), OR, help the rest of the party optimise their characters. This may require the DM allowing retraining or such for the characters.

It's no fun for the rest of the group if one PC is making the rest look redundant.

[Nifft]

It's no fun for the rest of the group if one PC is making the rest look redundant.

Sure but it's also no fun for the rest of the group if they TPK every single time to level-appropriate challenges.

Since they are apparently facing level-appropriate challenges (and failing to hit them), raising the competence of the rest of the group seems like an appropriate step which will both help intra-party balance and also help them survive the type of game that the DM is apparently interested in running.

[Quertus]

The standard response is, play to the balance of the group. If the group cares about balance, that is. Which, if the GM is looking to swing the nerf bat, at least someone does.

However, given the ridiculous lack of capability of your party, there's every chance that your character is the only thing keeping your party alive. Which is why I say "balance to the module", rather than "balance to the party". That is, if everyone else is too weak for the module, then they are the ones who are out of balance, not you.

So, you know the party and the content of the adventure better than we do. If you replaced your character with a Vampire Commoner, would the party TPK? If so, talk to the GM, and the two of you work to bring everyone else up to the level of the module.

If not, consider switching to playing a new character more in line with the group. and Quertus help you

[RoboEmperor]

I'd either help the party optimize their characters or leave the table. If the DM is swinging the nerf bat instead of helping the players improve at this level of performance, then that DM is terrible and this will not be the only problem you come across.

[Mike Miller]

I'd either help the party optimize their characters or leave the table. If the DM is swinging the nerf bat instead of helping the players improve at this level of performance, then that DM is terrible and this will not be the only problem you come across.

I was thinking about this, too. How experienced is the DM? If the party is handling encounters then the enemies must be equally poorly optimized. I want to know if it is because the DM is making the encounters to be set for the group or because he is just using stock enemies without understanding optimization at all. Probably the latter

[Emperor Ing]

The DM is new, but very familiar with 3.5e. Most of the party is new to 3.5e and are more familiar with 5e. The party comp is Pseudodragon Swordsage (Me,) Halfling Barbarian, Half-Elf Wild Mage (Homebrew base class,) and Shifter Barbarian.

[Arbane]

No cleric or other healy-type? I think that's a problem right there.

How are the Barbarians doing such low damage?

[AnonymousPepper]

Well, there's a halfling barb there, for one thing, and a friggin' wild mage, for another. Oof, oof, oof.

First, try and get them to improve their characters some.

Failing that, retire your swordsage in some grand manner and bring the ultimate in CoDzilla technology. Only, instead of beating enemies to death with your mighty CoD dongnightstick, direct literally all of your energy to buffing the rest of the party first, not dying second, and everything else third. Or grab an Artificer and do some WBLmancy on them.

The genius in the second strategy isn't just that you can be as high op as you want and not get BTFO'd by the GM - it's also that you give the other players a taste of what it's like to have an actual well-built character, even if it's only for rounds/[your level here]. This will encourage them to improve, either now or for any future characters they make.

[Boggartbae]

If it were me I would tone my character down. I love being a munchkin when i can, but j love playing even more, and the thought of work-shopping an entire party sounds a lot less fun than just making a sword and board paladin. Basically as long as we aren't dying repeatedly I optimize to the level of everyone else because it's fast and I don't like telling other people what to do.

[Darkcouch]

You could gear your Swordsage more towards debuffing. The other two ToB classes are easier to use to make others in the party shine, but Swordsage does have things like Blistering Flourish, Clinging Shadow Strike, Stone Vise, Strength Draining Strike, Hand of Death, Obscuring Shadow Veil, Overwhelming Mountain Strike,Fountain of Blood, Disrupting Blow, Ghost Blade, Crushing Vise, Irresistible Mountain Strike, Hydra Slaying Strike, Swooping Dragon Strike, and Earthstrike Quake that can slow down your enemies and/or make it easier for your teammates to get in some damage. You could also use Assassins Stance to qualify for the Sickening Strike and Terrifying Strike ambush feats.

For a minor investment you could grab a level of Shadow Sun Ninja and become a part-time part healer

[Zanos]

How are the Barbarians doing such low damage?
"Rage gives a strength bonus, so I shouldn't need a high base stat there" is the only reason I can think of for a level 8 barbarian to be doing 10 damage.

[rel]

Retire your beatstick and roll up a support build. Then sit in the background quietly buffing the party, debuffing the enemies and controlling the battlefield.

If you play things just right the other players won't even notice while you tip the scales in the parties favor and everyone has more fun.

[RoboEmperor]

The DM is new, but very familiar with 3.5e. Most of the party is new to 3.5e and are more familiar with 5e. The party comp is Pseudodragon Swordsage (Me,) Halfling Barbarian, Half-Elf Wild Mage (Homebrew base class,) and Shifter Barbarian.

I don't think anyone who would nerf a swordsage especially with a spellcaster in the party is someone "very familiar" with 3.5e.

Other people are telling you to turn into a buff bot and just spend all your time doing absolutely nothing except let others take all your fun so unless you're that nice of a person or you genuinely love playing a buffer, I would say this table is not right for you and find another table instead of wasting your valuable precious time on this incompatible table.

I've been in that boat before and I regret every second I spent trying to educate the DM and players because these people don't want to put in any effort to learn the system and just want to house rule things on the spot rather than read a book. If they did put in even a modicum of effort, the DM wouldn't be crying like a b**** that Troll's regeneration is OP and house rule it into fast healing instead because Regeneration is OP, there is no free lunch (wtf does that even mean), and nothing is immortal.

d&d is a significant commitment, so commit to a table you enjoy.

In any case to answer your original question:
1. Make up a real UNoptimized standard barbarian.
2. Compare that build to the halfling barbarian's build.
3. Show that his character is not even performing at 25% of the standard barbarian's damage output.
4. Tell him that you're not strong, you're normal, and that he's weak.

If this doesn't work then really, leave the table.

[Nifft]

Retire your beatstick and roll up a support build. Then sit in the background quietly buffing the party, debuffing the enemies and controlling the battlefield.

If you play things just right the other players won't even notice while you tip the scales in the parties favor and everyone has more fun.

Yeah, this is a good plan.


Question for the OP: is the Wild Mage like that 2e variant which can randomly (and repeatedly) drop a fireball on the party in the middle of combat, or apply other similarly unhelpful effects in the middle of combat?

[MeimuHakurei]

Here's what a standard-op, Level 8 Barb could look like (core only, no ACFs/sub levels/etc., standard heroic spread, omitting skills for brevity):

Half-Orc Barbarian 8
Str 25, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 8
89 HP
Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +7
Speed: 40 ft
Attack: +2 Greataxe (+17/+12 to hit, 1d12+12(19-20/x3) slashing damage; becomes +9/+4 to hit, 1d12+28(19-20/x3) slashing damage if a full power attack is used)
AC: 14

Equipped Items: +2 Greataxe, +2 light fortification Hide Armor, +2 Gauntlets of Ogre Power, +2 Cloak of Resistance

Darkvision 60 ft
Rage 3/day for 7 rounds each (stats assume the barb is currently raging)
Illiteracy
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Trap Sense +2
Damage Reduction 1/-

Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greataxe), Improved Critical (Greataxe)

[OgresAreCute]

I guess if the barbarians are the type who play protection style fighters in 5e, they don't think it's abnormal to deal 1d8+3 damage per hit at level 8? I dunno, even the most basic characters I make in 3.5 deal more damage than that at level 1, and I'm not particularly seasoned. In my group I have a monk player who never reads books and somehow always picks the most terrible, unoptimized builds (his previous character was S&S fighter) and he STILL deals much more damage than that at level 6.


Here's what a standard-op, Level 8 Barb could look like (core only, no ACFs/sub levels/etc., standard heroic spread, omitting skills for brevity):

Half-Orc Barbarian 8
Str 25, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 8
89 HP
Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +7
Speed: 40 ft
Attack: +2 Greataxe (+17/+12 to hit, 1d12+12(19-20/x3) slashing damage; becomes +9/+4 to hit, 1d12+28(19-20/x3) slashing damage if a full power attack is used)
AC: 14

Equipped Items: +2 Greataxe, +2 light fortification Hide Armor, +2 Gauntlets of Ogre Power, +2 Cloak of Resistance

Darkvision 60 ft
Rage 3/day for 7 rounds each (stats assume the barb is currently raging)
Illiteracy
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Trap Sense +2
Damage Reduction 1/-

Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greataxe), Improved Critical (Greataxe)


You can't pick Improved Critical until level 9, since it requires +8 BAB. Not that it really matters, just nitpicking a little.

[noce]

They're new to 3.5, and being new it's not a fault.

Your character is not broken, but is too strong wrt other players' level. If you keep playing it no one will enjoy the game, not even you if you keep trivializing encounters.

I suggest you to play either a buffer/caster SRD Bard, a buffer SRD Cleric, or a Dragon Shaman.
Those three options provide both healing and support, allowing your teammates to better contribute while you feel useful without overshadowing them.

[MrSandman]

That's only true in low-op games.

Didn't the OP specifically say that it was a low-op game?

[King of Nowhere]

I don't think anyone who would nerf a swordsage especially with a spellcaster in the party is someone "very familiar" with 3.5e.


Or, he has a very low-op party.

Trust me, in my level 16 campaign the party barbarian could defeat 1v2 the cleric and wizard. Possibly even go 1v3 against them and the druid too.

[RoboEmperor]

Or, he has a very low-op party.

Trust me, in my level 16 campaign the party barbarian could defeat 1v2 the cleric and wizard. Possibly even go 1v3 against them and the druid too.

Yeah but you wouldn't nerf the barbarian because of this right? Reduce rage bonuses, reduce rages/day, ban power attack, and the like. You'd instead tell the cleric and wizard to pick better spells if there was a problem right?

[Emperor Ing]

I got the GM to let me be build a freaking ur-priest (Good-aligned, actually) with a few levels in Wizard to justify Mystic Theurge. Sadly my ability to go CoDzilla is limited until I get the Polymorph spell next level, my spells targeted towards buffing the party and battlefield control. I'm still crazy OP, as I can cast 5th level cleric spells, it's just in such a way that I can snicker when the Barbarians are actually doing decent damage.

Yes, I did bring my Nightstick.

[ericgrau]

Buffing/supporting the other PCs is a great idea. But you still shouldn't play something so strong, and you should help the other players play closer to core fighter level. The end goal is to make sure everyone gets the spotlight and their turn to have fun, because that's what games are for. Especially cooperative ones. If you drastically outshine others they don't get to participate as much. I wouldn't gimp yourself though. Some power gap is fine, especially since you're buffing/supporting.

[Nifft]

I got the GM to let me be build a freaking ur-priest (Good-aligned, actually) with a few levels in Wizard to justify Mystic Theurge. Sadly my ability to go CoDzilla is limited until I get the Polymorph spell next level, my spells targeted towards buffing the party and battlefield control. I'm still crazy OP, as I can cast 5th level cleric spells, it's just in such a way that I can snicker when the Barbarians are actually doing decent damage.

Yes, I did bring my Nightstick.

You solved the problem of being too high-OP by going even higher-OP.

That's awesome.

Buff your mooks to victory, you godless & wizardless GOD-Wizard.

[Quertus]

I got the GM to let me be build a freaking ur-priest (Good-aligned, actually) with a few levels in Wizard to justify Mystic Theurge. Sadly my ability to go CoDzilla is limited until I get the Polymorph spell next level, my spells targeted towards buffing the party and battlefield control. I'm still crazy OP, as I can cast 5th level cleric spells, it's just in such a way that I can snicker when the Barbarians are actually doing decent damage.

Yes, I did bring my Nightstick.

... Did you actually listen to a word anyone said? This is approximately the opposite of the advice given. sorry, I failed my reading comprehension roll here. Carry on.


If you keep playing it no one will enjoy the game, not even you if you keep trivializing encounters.

That is not a given. Not all groups in all games require balance and symmetry.

Still, you are probably correct regarding this particular group in this particular game.


Or, he has a very low-op party.

Trust me, in my level 16 campaign the party barbarian could defeat 1v2 the cleric and wizard. Possibly even go 1v3 against them and the druid too.


Yeah but you wouldn't nerf the barbarian because of this right? Reduce rage bonuses, reduce rages/day, ban power attack, and the like. You'd instead tell the cleric and wizard to pick better spells if there was a problem right?

Awesome exchange. I'd love to see how this plays out.

KoN, does the rest of your group care that the barbarian is "so OP" compared to them?

S~, what's your experience with the nerf bat?

[Kelb_Panthera]

... Did you actually listen to a word anyone said? This is approximately the opposite of the advice given.



It's a no frills buff bot. That -is- the advice he was given. There's a -lot- of room to do it better.

[blackwindbears]

I don't think anyone who would nerf a swordsage especially with a spellcaster in the party is someone "very familiar" with 3.5e.

Other people are telling you to turn into a buff bot and just spend all your time doing absolutely nothing except let others take all your fun so unless you're that nice of a person or you genuinely love playing a buffer, I would say this table is not right for you and find another table instead of wasting your valuable precious time on this incompatible table.

I've been in that boat before and I regret every second I spent trying to educate the DM and players because these people don't want to put in any effort to learn the system and just want to house rule things on the spot rather than read a book. If they did put in even a modicum of effort, the DM wouldn't be crying like a b**** that Troll's regeneration is OP and house rule it into fast healing instead because Regeneration is OP, there is no free lunch (wtf does that even mean), and nothing is immortal.

d&d is a significant commitment, so commit to a table you enjoy.

In any case to answer your original question:
1. Make up a real UNoptimized standard barbarian.
2. Compare that build to the halfling barbarian's build.
3. Show that his character is not even performing at 25% of the standard barbarian's damage output.
4. Tell him that you're not strong, you're normal, and that he's weak.

If this doesn't work then really, leave the table.


70 damage per hit is *not* what the system expects at CR 8. Neither, I think, is an AC of 28.

[Cosi]

70 damage per hit is *not* what the system expects at CR 8.

At 1st level, a raging Barbarian with a greatsword and base 16 STR OHKOs a Wolf (a CR 1 melee enemy) with average damage. Someone dealing 70 damage per hit at CR 8 takes two hits to kill a Stone Giant (a CR 8 melee enemy). Are you really contending that the system expects relative damage output to fall by more than 50% between 1st level and 8th level, or are you just running off your gut instead of the numbers the system provides?


Neither, I think, is an AC of 28.

Our Stone Giant hits that AC on an 11 or higher. The Wolf is probably doing slightly better, but not overwhelmingly (and it has no second attack). Again, it seems like you're not checking your assertions about what the game expects against the expectations the game has.

[MeimuHakurei]

70 damage per hit is *not* what the system expects at CR 8. Neither, I think, is an AC of 28.

He deals ~30 damage per round and 70 was his HP. And several CR 8 monsters can in fact hit 28 AC targets reasonably well. I do admit it's relatively on the high side, but a Fighter with +2 gear and Combat Expertise can match (and surpass!) that with ease.

EDIT: Here's a list of the SRD's CR 8 monsters:

-Arrowhawk, Elder
-Athach
-Behir
-Bodak
-Desachtran
-Devil, Erinyes
-Dinosaur, Tyrannosaurus
-Dire Tiger
-Djinni (noble)
-Efreeti
-Giant, Stone
-Gorgon
-Gray Render
-Gynosphinx
-Hydra, 9 heads
-Hydra, Cryo/Pyro, 7 heads
-Lammasu
-Mohrg
-Monstrous Centipede, Fiendish, Gargantuan
-Monstrous Spider, Gargantuan
-Naga, Dark
-Octopus, Giant
-Ogre Mage
-Shadow, Greater
-Shield Guardian
-Skeleton, Young Adult Red Dragon
-Swarm, Hellwasp
-Treant
-Xorn, Elder

[Quertus]

It's a no frills buff bot. That -is- the advice he was given. There's a -lot- of room to do it better.

OK, my reading comprehension failed again. Apologies to all, especially the OP.

[sleepyphoenixx]

70 damage per hit is *not* what the system expects at CR 8. Neither, I think, is an AC of 28.

He's doing 30 damage per round, as MeimuHakurei said.
That's actually a little on the low end if you consider a caster using a standard empowered damage spell (8d6*1,5, avg 42 damage) as a reasonable baseline for what the system "expects".
I'm including Empower because i'd say that people building to be good at their role is expected. I'm not including optimization like metamagic reducers.

Something similar applies to melee builds. They're expected to put their highest ability score into strength and pick up feats like Power Attack that actually make them better at their primary role. That's just common sense.
For reference, a level 8 Fighter with 18 Str (assuming 16 to start with 2 from levels) and PA (power attacking for -4 with a greatsword) can reasonably be assumed to do 2d6 +15 per hit, or an average of 22 damage, with two attacks per round.
Similar for a rogue, who already does 3 attacks per round with an average 18 damage just from Sneak Attack and TWF alone.

That's before any buffs, equipment or class features, which the system can also be assumed to expect since the "standard" party is Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric.
Those aren't optimized numbers, just picking core options that make you better at what you're trying to do. Basic build competency in other words.

The same applies to AC. 23 + level is the target number a frontliner should be aiming for to keep up with monster attack bonus, otherwise your chances to be hit actually increase as you rise in level.