"Paying" for skill points

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all,

As my world comes together, I feel there is a need for some form of skills training system. If a party starts off in the desert, then decides to move to the rainforest, then that will involve sailing. And they can hire a ship, but having ranks in prof sailor isnt a bad idea. Or maybe the party is short on knowledge the planes, but are doing some planes hopping shortly.

So, I am thinking about putting in a mechanic where you can "pay" for skills with time, and perhaps money?

But I am unsure of the costs.

This is for 3.P, and I will likely be using the Pathfinder system of class skills, but the 3.5e list of skills (I like the split between hide and move silent, for example, and between spot and listen). So that gets around penalties for cross class skills nicely.

I was thinking training should take a month. The world is dynamic, things change. Taking a month out during a quest might mean failure of said quest. But its also a reasonable amount of down time between quests, or on longer quests.

But what should a month get you? 1 rank? 5? 2+1d4? Something else?

Should the ranks be permanent (I think they should, but input would be nice).

Should it be for all skills? Or just Craft, Profession and Knowledge?

What is a good monetary cost? I would say it needs to be done in the company of a master, or with access to a large collection of books, or both, so there should be some exchange of coinage.

The point is, I dont want to just give them levels. I want this to be about their existing characters learning how to sail, or how to kill that monster, or how to craft that item. And this wont be a pre-campaign option. Their starting skills already represent time spent learning. This would be a way for them to enter new areas WITHOUT being totally unable to survive in them, and potentially provide a jumping off point for a later multiclass if they want.

I am also um-ing and ah-ing over whether to do a similar, but more expensive, version for feats. So rather than give up a previous feat, you could simply train into a new one, but I think thats A) too powerful, and B) would take too much effort to come up with a list of feats they can do that with.

[JeenLeen]

For monetary cost, you could try a couple scenarios based on existing things
1) find the cost of a magic items that give +X to a skill. Do the math to figure out the average cost for 1 skill, and make that the fee.
2) I think, in 3.5's Magic Item Compendium, there's rules for custom magic items. Use the boosting skill points one for the above mathemancy.
3) as above, but to mirror some of those feats that give a small bonus to skills.
4) One book... I think one of the Completes... had the idea of earning feats by visiting special spots, and I think it had a cost value associated with it. You could probably find one that was a bonus to skills and use that.

The fee can represent numinous things and may differ depending on how trained. It could be paying a master to teach you, fees to a guild to get training from its members, supplies consumed during training, etc. or a mix of the above.

I think you'd also be fine giving it out as rewards for quests. Like, befriend the town and the guilds are willing to give some training in "trash" skills that help flavor and broaden the PCs' abilities. If every PC gets it as a extra reward, no need to charge a monetary cost.

I recommend veering away from time being too big a constraint. It is an annoying opportunity cost, and often is either deathly prohibitive (big bad is marching on, and don't have time to train) or pointless (plot isn't moving, so doesn't matter if we wait a month or not.) And if the PCs don't know which it is, that could lead to annoyed players.
However, I can see wanting time to be a factor. I could see a month for each point if doing other stuff at the same time. Maybe just a week is really focusing on that. Or you could do something more complicated, so it's easier to pick up low levels of skills than high ones, or level might factor in (like, a level 20 fighter can learn Profession (Sailor) 1 faster than a level 1 fighter.) But simplicity is probably better.
If you go complicated, I'd recommend not making it dependent on Intelligence. Though perhaps you could have it take something like 4d6 - ability modifier days. 4d6 is, at most, almost a month (4 weeks), and it make sense a really strong person could learn a skill dependent on Strength faster than a weak person. And that lets Intelligence factor in where it makes sense. You could also add a modifier based on the skill of the teacher.

I strongly recommend having it limited in some way, like you can't get above a 3 in the skill via training like this. +3 is decent for a level 1 commoner, so a decent skill to be alongside other workers. Maybe that's too strict, but you (probably) don't want a PC to dump a lot of gold to get a huge bonus to Use Magic Device.

[Anymage]

PHB2 has rules for retraining. In very short terms, upon leveling up, you can exchange one feature (feat, class feature, certain number of skill points invested, etc.) for another of the same type.

One month of downtime for free skill ranks encourages PCs to take time off for free stuff. One month of downtime for a retrain point sounds reasonable, though. Certain skills might well atrophy as they fall into disuse; while you focus on being a better sailor, your ranks in Escape Artist drop because you aren't constantly training to keep yourself sharp. But since real people can have skills atrophy while they focus on other things, and because retraining like this helps avoid characters feel like they're stuck because they made a bad pick early on, it sounds like a fair rule.

[Ethernil]

I have seen dms who wanted to do stuff like those you mention, requiring players to detail everything, maybe even visiting the toilet or else having roll penalties for constipation. It gets really old, really fast and your players will hate it and maybe even quit the game.
DnD is a game where everyday people play super powerful warriors and amazing spellcasters who defy the laws of physics, few if any want to roleplay menial tasks.
Skill points and feats you gain for leveling up actually reflect your practice, even though getting cold endurance after spending months in a plane of volcanic fire does feel kinda dumb.

If you want to give them a +1 or +2 bonus, not ranks, in some skill for their past experience it wouldn't heavily affect the game and they would feel some sence of accomplishment though.

[ericgrau]

The short answer is that there is no fair way to pay for them, but skill points are minor enough that it won't hurt either. As long as you put a cap on it and don't let players get unlimited skill points this way, whatever you decide should work out fine. I also agree with not getting too involved on what should be a minor perk. Plus I can't get a hard answer because what's fine for a few weeks downtime could be a mess for a few years. Just ad hoc a simple way to give out no more than a handful of bonus SP and move on.

Slightly longer answer: Extra skill points favor classes with less skill points and are starving for what they can get. Even if you give more to the rogue since he still may not have much major left to put them in. Extra languages and other specialized skills specific to where the PCs are adventuring, like swim for an aquatic section, have less of an impact. But again it's not a big deal if you limit it.

[daremetoidareyo]

Just give away skill points along with experience. If PCs are on a big horse riding adventure, give them their share of xp (of course) and one or two skill ranks that can only be used for handle animal, ride, or knowledge nature. That way the adventures themselves shape the PCs.

[JeenLeen]

If you want to give them a +1 or +2 bonus, not ranks, in some skill for their past experience it wouldn't heavily affect the game and they would feel some sence of accomplishment though.

I think making it a bonus instead of actual ranks is a great idea. For one thing, this limits any concept of trying to, say, buy 30 points of Use Magic Device, and it stops folk from piling on synergy bonuses* by training up a few points.
It also removes any concern about if the skill is in-class or out-class. Which I think would be nice for these, since part of the idea seems to be to broaden the PCs' mundane abilities in a realistic fashion. The bonus represents training beyond their normal skill use.

*I forget if that's a thing in Pathfinder, but know it's in 3.5.


Just give away skill points along with experience. If PCs are on a big horse riding adventure, give them their share of xp (of course) and one or two skill ranks that can only be used for handle animal, ride, or knowledge nature. That way the adventures themselves shape the PCs.

That also seems acceptable, but I'd combine it with a bonus instead of ranks.


---
Maybe state the bonus does not stack with Skill Focus or similar feats, to keep from too much of a boost from stacking bonuses. For most skills, it probably doesn't matter.

[ericgrau]

That also seems acceptable, but I'd combine it with a bonus instead of ranks.

Bonuses might be easier for other things, but I think matching xp with something you normally get from xp is simpler in this case. Though, again, I think whatever could work as long as the DM doesn't go overboard.

[Albions_Angel]

Ok, thats a lot of ideas.

I was planning on capping that, but obviously forgot to say. The idea was giving a party a way to fill a gap in their abilities that they will need to use soon, but havnt needed up until now, or that it would be impossible to fill any other way.

I like the bonuses. That stops them from getting synergy, like you say. BUT, I think the first point they get should be a rank. Because things like Prof Sailor are trained only.

So something like first week gives 1 rank in an empty skill (so they can, if they want, just spend a week and get 1 prof, craft, or new knowledge). Then you can spend up to 4d6-Ability Mod days to get up to a +4 bonus, one bonus per d6 spent.

MIC gives skill bonus squared * 100gp, well its a bonus (or rank) of 1 each time, so 100gp per bonus.

Max cap of 1 rank and +4 bonus.

Only works on empty skills (for the rank) or skills with 1 rank (for the bonus) of the prof/craft/knowledge variety.

That seems good. +4 in something is nice. And at max it takes a month and a bit, which stops "Hey, the big bad is this creature we dont have knowledge of, lets spend time getting that", but still allows "we are bored with this continent, we spend a month getting ready to ship out" AND "we really need just a week so we have a CHANCE of understanding this thing". And then as the time cost is prohibitive, the monetary cost isnt. And yes, I can wave the money cost as a reward, and even speed it up as a "focused training session" as a reward. And strong people learn strong skills faster than weak people, and smart people learn smart skills faster than stupid people.

Though, Craft/Prof/Knowledge are all smart skills...

[Goaty14]

Give them free ranks into a profession and then change which profession it's tied to depending on what the PCs are currently doing? So at sea it changes into Prof. Sailor, underground it becomes Prof. Miner, etc. Maybe make it 1/2 ranks if that's too much, but I don't see anything wrong.

[Telonius]

Yeah, I'd be very, very wary of it granting any ranks above the first one. There are an awful lot of feats and prestige classes that have "X ranks in Y skill" as a prerequisite, to limit access to something by level. Otherwise you could potentially have somebody taking Sublime Chord at 8th, or something even sillier like Exemplar or Contemplative at level 2.

[Segev]

In D&D 5e's Xanathar's Guide to Everything, there are rules for training during downtime that allow characters to trade time and money for new skill or tool proficiencies. This is a similar concept. The costs don't translate well between editions, though.

The cost for a skill-boosting magic item is (bonus)2x100 gp, market value. (Half for crafting, plus 1/25 market value in xp.)

This doesn't translate neatly to training, since obviously training 1 sp at a time would be the way to go with such scaling costs.

An easy way to do it would be to make it be (final ranks in skill)2x100 gp, plus you need to find a trainer who has at least as many ranks as you're raising it to, for each skill rank in a given skill.

So learning the first rank in a new skill just needs one rank in your teacher, and 100 gp. Learning the second rank would be 400 gp and need a teacher with 2 ranks. etc.

It might take a week of training, period, for any increase, or you could make it variable.

Obviously, don't let ranks exceed normal level-based caps this way.

[Ken Murikumo]

Sort of unrelated, but in one of my campaigns, i allowed a Skyrim style skill progression, where they spent their skill ranks normally, but could get a running bonus for using them. Basically, every 3 successes with a skill awarded them 1 bonus point in the skill. 2 failures counted as a success. I noticed everyone started making more skill checks, rather than being constantly prompted by me. Characters with little to no skill in a subject would eventually have a few points in those skills just from trial and error. There was a cap per session, as well as a maximum they could achieve before they stopped getting points, but it was a while ago so i don't remember what it was.

[Nifft]

That seems good. +4 in something is nice. And at max it takes a month and a bit, which stops "Hey, the big bad is this creature we dont have knowledge of, lets spend time getting that", but still allows "we are bored with this continent, we spend a month getting ready to ship out" AND "we really need just a week so we have a CHANCE of understanding this thing". And then as the time cost is prohibitive, the monetary cost isnt. And yes, I can wave the money cost as a reward, and even speed it up as a "focused training session" as a reward. And strong people learn strong skills faster than weak people, and smart people learn smart skills faster than stupid people.

Though, Craft/Prof/Knowledge are all smart skills...

People with strong / smart stats already have a bonus to strong / smart skills (respectively), thanks to their ability bonus being added to the check. You could change that:
- Strong people get bonus skill points which can only be spend on Str skills, or learn Str skills faster; and
- You don't add your Str bonus to Str skills -- instead, you get a scaling synergy bonus for having lots of Str skills


That's possible.

But I think it's probably less work to just sell cheap items which provide a bonus to NPC skills like Profession, which might be used for narrative non-combat stuff like travel. Those items wouldn't necessarily use the MIC skill prices, since the MIC skill prices are intended to be balanced against combat skill use (e.g. Intimidate, Spot, Tumble, UMD).

[Jack_Simth]

With a Pathfinder base?

Scarlet and Blue Sphere Ioun Stone (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/scarlet-and-blue-sphere-ioun-stone/), 8k market.

It comes with an associated skill, which you get after having it active for a day. Look up the implantation rules (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/#TOC-Implanted-Ioun-Stones) to protect it (takes 3 days or more)

Then realize there is nothing stopping the skills from adding up if each stone you buy has a different skill, even though the enhancement to Intelligence overlaps.

So... however long to buy / craft the stone of the skill you want, plus 3 to 8 days, a Charisma check, and a few skill checks gets you a number of ranks in one skill equal to your hit dice.

[DeadMech]

3.5 always felt skill point starved to me so I don't think it's too bad an idea to let the players gain a few extra. Especially for smaller parties and especially if it's just comfort of life stuff. I generally offer my players in various games a free non-adventuring skill. Just cause it's nice for a party to sit down and cook their own meal on occasion. Or for a non bard to be able to sing or play an instrument. Or have some profession or activity they can do in downtime. If they find a clever way to make use of it then it's probably fine.

Sailing heavy campaigns are basically a tax in my mind. The campaign doesn't function without some of the players giving up their skills or a large percentage of their wealth hiring npc's.

[jdizzlean]

if you're going to build downtime into your world for training purposes, than you should also be willing to build downtime into your adventures when they want to use skills to earn some extra coin or create items...

don't be that dm that requires them to take that stuff, and then doesn't allow them the time to actually use those abilities

[Ellrin]

The short answer is that there is no fair way to pay for them, but skill points are minor enough that it won't hurt either. As long as you put a cap on it and don't let players get unlimited skill points this way, whatever you decide should work out fine. I also agree with not getting too involved on what should be a minor perk. Plus I can't get a hard answer because what's fine for a few weeks downtime could be a mess for a few years. Just ad hoc a simple way to give out no more than a handful of bonus SP and move on.

Slightly longer answer: Extra skill points favor classes with less skill points and are starving for what they can get. Even if you give more to the rogue since he still may not have much major left to put them in. Extra languages and other specialized skills specific to where the PCs are adventuring, like swim for an aquatic section, have less of an impact. But again it's not a big deal if you limit it.

I've played 8+Int classes on Int-focused characters before, and I still didn't feel like I had enough skill points per level to get everything for a really universal skill monkey. Just sinking points into knowledge skills is a huge drain, let alone keeping up with all the usual roguey and face skills. Obviously you would typically divide these roles up between party members, but if the DM's offering extra skill points, your party rogue is never going to run out of ways to usefully spend them with the 3.5 list. It's difficult even with the streamlined PF list, though it's possible.

[Crake]

pathfinder has an optional rule for this: Background skills. At the DM's option, players can gain 2 extra skill points per level that they can put into specifically designated background skills, that allow for players to level up more secondary skills that they wouldn't otherwise want to invest ranks into, like esoteric lore skills, professions, and a few others, of which i believe survival, sleight of hand and linguistics are included.