Rogue 1/Wiz 19 vs. Wiz 20

[miinstrel]

I'm joining a campaign where I'll start at level 8. Going to play a variant human Diviner, 27 point buy. Taking Lucky for the feat, pumping INT to 20 then Resilient, War Caster, and +2 DEX for my ASIs (probably... we'll see how the game goes).

It's very likely this will run to level 20, so here's the question... Do I dip rogue 1 at 1st level (which makes sense for the character though it works without it) or do I just go straight wizard? Basically, is Signature spell worth the level 1 rogue perks?

WIZ 20
- Wisdom saves (generally save or suck = more important but less common than Dex)
- 1x 7th lvl slot
- Signature Spell (essentially 4+ 3rd level slots/day for common spells)
- mandatory 1st level slot spent on Mage armor

ROGUE 1 / WIZ 19
- Dexterity saves (generally HP damage = more common but less useful than Wis)
- 2 more skills
- +2 HP
- Thieves Tools (I don't think our group has a lock picker)
- Expertise (probably Sleight of Hand and Persuasion for this character)
- Thieves Cant
- 15 AC without using a spell slot via studded leather (vs. 16 with mage armor)

... Really torn on this one. Are the Wiz 20 things worth it for just the one level I'd have access to them compared to the lifelong use of the rogue dip abilities (and delaying spell/ASI progression by a level)? What's the playground's opinion here?

[Snowbluff]

Signature spell is pretty awful.
Also, having Armor is nice.

Finally, I'd say that my fave rogue level is 2. Bonus action hiding, disengage, or dash is super good if you're trying to maintain concentration.

[miinstrel]

I don't think Cunning Action is worth a lost ASI personally. Especially when there are escape options (like Misty Step) available via Spell Mastery.

[Anymage]

The 20th level of wizard specifically is pretty meh. If you were building a 20th level character from scratch, the only reason I'd suggest against rogue is that other options can bring more to the table. A background can give you thief tools proficiency, and then Bard or Cleric can better synergize with being a caster.

Far more games are expected to go to 20 than actually get to 20, though. And more importantly, you'll have the whole 9 or 10 levels (depending on whether you start with Rogue) before you hit ninth level spells. Spending the bulk of your career half a spell level behind will be noticeable.

[Keravath]

I don't know if it would work for your character concept ... however, one level of cleric (life/nature/war for access to heavy armor, or any other cleric for medium armor), a shield, the really useful level 1 cleric spells (bless, healing word), and full spell progression can be a useful multiclass dip.

You can also gain proficiency with thieves tools from the urchin, criminal and custom background ... you don't need to be a rogue to be capable with thieves tools though a rogue is the only one who can take expertise in thieves tools.

[CTurbo]

I agree that if I were to dip Rogue, I'd go for at least 2 levels.

If I'm a wizard and am looking for a single level dip, I probably dip Cleric(Knowledge) as my first choice or Fighter as my second.


You also have to consider how rare it is to make in into the mid teen levels much less level 20

[miinstrel]

Appreciate the suggestions. Cleric won't work nicely with the concept unfortunately - though that would be my pick too if I were looking solely at optimization. I could possibly make bard work, but there's already one in the party so trying not to step on toes there.

I'm leaning fairly strongly toward a 1 level dip in rogue as this has marinated throughout the day. It may be a slightly sub-optimal choice but feels right for the character.

And yes, I do realize the rarity of reaching 20th level but the planner in me can't help but think through to that epic end goal. This is an RL game that's been going for about a year so far, and they've been playing together for a long time so the odds of reaching teens+ is actually fairly decent. I hope. Only time will tell...

[Angelalex242]

I find it unwise to take the rogue level. It'll never matter more than your spells.

[Blood of Gaea]

It can be worth it to dip a level or two after 18th level. I wouldn't take it to start.

[Keravath]

Well ... three levels of arcane trickster rogue would leave you as an 18th level caster still with 9th level spells but you'd also have the bonus cantrips, spells and mage hand legerdemain from the trickster (along with 2d6 for sneak attack dice though I'm not sure when you'd use that).

The trade off depends on how important spell mastery for a first and second level spell might be for your build.

[Chronos]

If you're only considering the one-level dip because of your character concept, that's what backgrounds are for. Among the standard backgrounds, Criminal and Urchin are already pretty rogueish, and if neither of those works for you, you can probably work with your DM to create something custom. Basically, it amounts to a couple of skills, a couple of tools/languages, and something that the DM can use as a plot hook.

[the secret fire]

I don't think Cunning Action is worth a lost ASI personally. Especially when there are escape options (like Misty Step) available via Spell Mastery.

And what shall he do for the other 12 levels of play he'll be facing with this character?

Cunning Action on a Wizard is absurdly useful. I'm especially a fan of doing a two level Rogue dip with Bladesingers and War Mages. They make wonderful villains.

[Nifft]

<3 Cunning Action on a Wizard.

Not sure it's optimal but it sure feels worthwhile, even at low-ish levels.

[NinaWu]

If you're going to dip you may as well hit 2 levels rogue then, but myself, I'm a purist at heart and would go the full 20 Wizard

[Dalebert]

I don't think Cunning Action is worth a lost ASI personally. Especially when there are escape options (like Misty Step) available via Spell Mastery.

It's pretty competitive with feats or ASIs in general, and I would say more so for a caster as there just aren't really good feats for them other than maybe resilient con for concentration which you can do while also raising your int to 20 with three ASIs. There's no way to hide while also turning invisible as a wizard which is a nice one-turn combo for rogues.

I think the most painful thing is not the end-game but the fact that you would be two levels behind as a wizard all the way through. You'll always feel that. You'll be thinking "I could have level 3 spells by now if I hadn't gone rogue." Then you'll be thinking "I could have level 4 spells by now if I hadn't gone rogue." It won't end until maybe level 19 when you'll go "Wow, this was a great idea!" or maybe even level 20 because that's when you'll get unlimited use of a 1st and 2nd level spell.