Fear vs Enemies Abound vs Hypnotic Pattern

[TheHutz]

Hello All,

I'm currently approaching level 5 as a bard and our main arcane magic user in a Curse of Strahd campaign. I'm definitely not looking to receive or give any spoilers there in this thread.

I'm thinking my spell list at level 5 has room for one of these 3 control spells. My party currently consists of a Grave Cleric, Hexblade Warlock, Cavalier Fighter, and a Champion Dual Wielding Fighter. For my magical secrets at level 6 I was leaning Counterspell and either Crusader's Mantle or Slow.

Which of the 3 spells in the title would best suit this group?

Fear Pros:
AoO's for my melee centric damage dealers.
Affects as many enemies as I can fit in a cone.
Can't repeat save unless they leave my LOS.
Weapons/Shields dropped.

Fear Cons:
Requires I move closer to melee to put creatures in 30 foot cone.
Have to position myself not to hit my teammates.
Fleeing enemies could possibly alert other enemies in tight quarters.
Doesn't work on fear immune creatures? (Spell doesn't say this but it does for enemies abound)

Enemies Abound Pros:
Force an enemy to attack its teammates.
Enemy will use AoO on teammates.
Force enemies to attack affected creature to break spell.
Great range with no positioning issues.
If successful on powerful enemy can completely change encounter.

Enemies Abound Cons:
Affects only one creature.
Doesn't work on fear immune creatures. (Stated in spell)
Save every time damage is taken (better than HP).

Hypnotic Pattern Pros:
Not fear based, I'm thinking this may be helpful in Strahd.
Affects multiple enemies.
Enemies must waste action to wake affected creature.
Great range and area of affect.

Hypnotic Pattern Cons:
Have to position spell not to hit teammates, easier than Fear.
Spell ends immediately when damage is taken, no save.

EA is an int save and the other two are WIS. Not sure which is better in that case, I'm assuming Wisdom?

Thoughts? I did some searching and didn't see many comparisons on 3 very similar spells.

[PeteNutButter]

They are situational, but if I had to rate the spells, I'd rate them as such:

Enemies Abound > Fear > Hypnotic Pattern.

EA can break an encounter, by shifting one tough enemy from the foe side to the friendly. Int saves are generally very bad, so this is fantastic.

Fear is amazing CC, and doesn't allow for resaving in some situations (ridiculously overpowered with a conquest paladin).

Hypnotic Pattern is best against large groups of enemies, but only buys a round or two as long as someone makes their save. Hypnotic Pattern is extremely overpowered though, when combined with a bard instrument.

The other big reason I value EA is most fights in my experience tend to be one or two tough enemies with just a few goons. Until later levels its faster and more reliable to just have the wizard toss a few fireballs and kill the goons rather than try to CC them.

[sophontteks]

Enemies abound targets one enemy as a level 3 spell. So, if the enemy wins the save, you wasted your turn. And in CoS wasting your turn is very bad. You can't waste level 3 spell on one target like that.

You want a good single target spell? Dissonate whispers is far cheaper and really effective, allowing all your allies to score a free hit as the enemy runs away.

Level three better be an AOE CC and which is better depends. Fear is a better effect, and easier to avoid friendly fire, but you have to be close. Hypnotic isn't as good of an effect, but you can stay a safe distance.

I picked hypnotic because I'm a glamour bard. Glamour bards can use inspiration to move alll their allies out of the aoe, so it was a no-brainer. You'll have to figure out which is better for your build.

[ImproperJustice]

We are currently neck deep in against the giants and I would say based on our experience so far:

Hypnotic Pattern can just shut an entire group down. Divide the enemy, and even if they do recover, they are wasting actions they could be using to crush you.
It is an excellent lead in spell, especially for infiltration work.

Enemies Abound is cool, but as other pointed out, it only takes one enemy, maybe 2-3 out of the fight for a few rounds while they subdue them. I think you may want to consider having a control AoE, but consider the enemies you are facing. Most foes have poor Int saves and some decent wis saves, so EA may win out in those circumstances.

Fear is good. Not a total shutdown like the two above, but easier to use in combat.
Honestly these are all good choices. Juat weigh what you think will see the most action based on your group’s playstyle.

[tieren]

I am running a group through CoS now and our last encounter was nearly completely shut down by hypnotic pattern.

Cleric took out the mooks with his spirit guardians, leaving two strong foes (I won't spoil but was worried going in would be a TPK). To help cover the cleric's escape with the McGuffin the bard cast hypnotic pattern, and both enemies failed their saves (one even had magic resistance).

What should have been a deadly chase/escape turned into a stroll out the front door.

[Slayn82]

I think Hypnotic Pattern holds very well against both spells, specially if you are a bard. There's the range, the area of effect, the synergy with an Instrument of the Bards to impose disadvantage on the enemy save, but there's also how simple it is to remove the effect from your allies, how it's a spell that you can use from an ambush without giving your position if you are hidden (because it doesn't have a verbal component), and the fact that while under the effect of the spell, you can talk with the creature, having advantage on social interactions. So, you can scream: OBJECTION!!! Make your point to a target who may be verging on becoming hostile, and well - no harm, no foul. It's the Fireball of social encounters.

Other spell like this is Calm Emotions - only humanoids, but target's charisma. Enthrall used to be good, but now it's garbage.

[Keravath]

Personally, I would pick hypnotic pattern first.

It is a sizable area of effect and every creature affected will just stand there with NO repeat saving throw for 10 rounds. They can be awakened by either damage or an action to shake them awake. However, taking an action to shake them awake depends on whether the opponents recognize the spell, think of shaking them or have the intelligence to decide that spending their time shaking a team mate might be more valuable than attacking the group who cast the spell.

Hypnotic pattern can completely shut down a fight under the right circumstances and even if it doesn't it can slow the action economy of the opponents. (It depends on how many make their saving throws and what actions are reasonable when they respond).

Hypnotic pattern does not work on creatures immune to charm so this may be a factor depending on what creatures you encounter.

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On the topic of Enemies Abound, I'd agree with the other comments. It is a single target and if the target saves then your action does nothing.

In addition, Enemies Abound makes the target think that everyone is their enemy. If you use it on an opponent that is already engaged with one of your team mates then they may just continue to focus on your team mate. The target only applies random target selection when it chooses ANOTHER target ... so it can continue to attack your team mate. In addition, it randomly chooses an enemy within range of the attack it decides to use ... so if a caster decides to use fireball then it could end up choosing one of your team mates anyway. Finally, whenever the creature takes damage they get another save.

Here is the text from the spell:

"Whenever the affected creature chooses another creature as a target, it must choose the target at random from among the creatures it can see within range of the attack, spell, or other ability it’s using."

There are several different ways to interpret "another creature as a target" in this spell.
1) Another creature meaning not the same one it is currently attacking (this is how I tend to interpret it).
2) "Another creature" as different from an object or a point in space. If the creature under the effect of enemies abound decides to target another creature then it has to select randomly ... but does this apply if it targets an object or a point in space? This interpretation would allow a caster to place a fireball wherever they like since it would not be constrained since it is not targeting "another creature". (I wouldn't go with this interpretation).

In addition, Enemies Abound can strongly depend on the DM and the character it is affecting. For example, a player casts Enemies Abound on an opponent who now finds themselves surrounded by enemies. Looking at things from the perspective of the affected character ... what is their best course of action? Assuming that they have some sort of intelligence, and they find themselves in a crowd of enemies ...
- if the battle looks tough or the character isn't the bravest ... disengage and get to the edge of the battle where they can either decide to flee further or attack from the edges. Unless you have lots of hitpoints and high AC there are very few characters or NPCs who would choose to remain surrounded.
- if the character does decide to remain in the crowd then they still get to choose the attack/spell they use.

Basically, Enemies Abound is far from guaranteed to give you a challenging opponent suddenly fighting against the other opponents as was suggested in one of the other posts.

[sophontteks]

Personally, I would pick hypnotic pattern first.

It is a sizable area of effect and every creature affected will just stand there with NO repeat saving throw for 10 rounds. They can be awakened by either damage or an action to shake them awake. However, taking an action to shake them awake depends on whether the opponents recognize the spell, think of shaking them or have the intelligence to decide that spending their time shaking a team mate might be more valuable than attacking the group who cast the spell.

Hypnotic pattern can completely shut down a fight under the right circumstances and even if it doesn't it can slow the action economy of the opponents. (It depends on how many make their saving throws and what actions are reasonable when they respond).

Hypnotic pattern does not work on creatures immune to charm so this may be a factor depending on what creatures you encounter.

----------

On the topic of Enemies Abound, I'd agree with the other comments. It is a single target and if the target saves then your action does nothing.

In addition, Enemies Abound makes the target think that everyone is their enemy. If you use it on an opponent that is already engaged with one of your team mates then they may just continue to focus on your team mate. The target only applies random target selection when it chooses ANOTHER target ... so it can continue to attack your team mate. In addition, it randomly chooses an enemy within range of the attack it decides to use ... so if a caster decides to use fireball then it could end up choosing one of your team mates anyway. Finally, whenever the creature takes damage they get another save.

Here is the text from the spell:

"Whenever the affected creature chooses another creature as a target, it must choose the target at random from among the creatures it can see within range of the attack, spell, or other ability it’s using."

There are several different ways to interpret "another creature as a target" in this spell.
1) Another creature meaning not the same one it is currently attacking (this is how I tend to interpret it).
2) "Another creature" as different from an object or a point in space. If the creature under the effect of enemies abound decides to target another creature then it has to select randomly ... but does this apply if it targets an object or a point in space? This interpretation would allow a caster to place a fireball wherever they like since it would not be constrained since it is not targeting "another creature". (I wouldn't go with this interpretation).

In addition, Enemies Abound can strongly depend on the DM and the character it is affecting. For example, a player casts Enemies Abound on an opponent who now finds themselves surrounded by enemies. Looking at things from the perspective of the affected character ... what is their best course of action? Assuming that they have some sort of intelligence, and they find themselves in a crowd of enemies ...
- if the battle looks tough or the character isn't the bravest ... disengage and get to the edge of the battle where they can either decide to flee further or attack from the edges. Unless you have lots of hitpoints and high AC there are very few characters or NPCs who would choose to remain surrounded.
- if the character does decide to remain in the crowd then they still get to choose the attack/spell they use.

Basically, Enemies Abound is far from guaranteed to give you a challenging opponent suddenly fighting against the other opponents as was suggested in one of the other posts.
Pretty much this. I wouldn't even rate enemies abound as a good spell. Not at third level. There are many first and second level spells that can perform similarly. Namely dissonate whispers at first and phantasmal force at 2nd (which is also an int save and much more flexible.)

If you want single target CC at third level really bad. There is Curse.
- For each round the target must roll wis or lose their turn doing nothing.
- The spell doesn't end if they succeed.
- Its not a charm or fear effect, so no creature resists it.
- You can do whatever you want to the creature without breaking the spell.
- You can upcast it as a 5th level spell and it no longer requires concentration.
- You can upcast it to make it last 24 hours, or even make it permanent.
- You can literally make up your own curses that have their own effects with DM approval.

Its miles and miles better then enemies abound.

[mephnick]

Hypnotic Pattern basically broke our SKT campaign. Depending on how many Strahd enemies are immune to charm, I'd take it. It's probably one of the best spells in the system unless you're fighting high WIS monsters.

[Protato]

The Bard guide in my signature talks about these spells, but personally for your situation I'd pick Hypnotic Pattern. It's the Fireball of control spells if you ask me, and a solid pick for most groups. When in doubt, I'd choose it.

[MaxWilson]

Main thing to be aware of with Hypnotic Pattern is that by the rules as written it does not work on mummies/ghouls/ghasts/wraiths (they're immune to Charmed condition and therefore immune to Hypnotic Pattern), but it does work on skeletons/zombies/wights/vampires because for some reason they're not immune to charm. If your DM alters monsters freely to give them "appropriate" undead immunities, Hypnotic Pattern could get less useful real quick.

Overall I'd still pick it but just be conscious of the fact that some things may be immune, and switch to Confusion in those cases.

Hypnotic Pattern also has secondary non-combat uses for granting you advantage on your Persuasion/etc. checks, but in practice you'd just use Enhance Ability instead.

Fear is also excellent, especially if your DM decides that monsters know how to wake each other up from the charm using their actions.

Enemies Abound is... not terrible, because targeting Int is awesome, but it has more in common with Dominate Person than it does with Hypnotic Pattern or Fear. Limited duration (save on damage) + single target effect might be useful on a single big guy in a group of smaller guys, but how likely is that to happen? (Honest question--I didn't find Curse of Strahd particularly memorable to read and I never ran it.)

I'd probably pick Hypnotic Pattern first, then Fear second, then Enemies Abound as a distant third, and change that ordering only if specific campaign knowledge/events gave me reason to.

[sophontteks]

In defense of Enemies Abound.
If you want to see this spell cause absolute havok watch a sorcerer use subtle spell to cast it on an aggressive or zealous NPC in the middle of a formal event. Its subtle spell, so there is no indication that you cast a spell. Everyone just see's this man going absolutely berserk. No doubt he will be arrested, likely marked as a traitor, and probably executed. Great way to assassinate someone.

Actually, its even better then I thought. "If an enemy provokes an opportunity attack, the creature must make that attack if it's able to." So, uh. This poor NPC will just swing at the first person that walks by him? Savage.

Gotta have subtle spell for this one though.


Main thing to be aware of with Hypnotic Pattern is that by the rules as written it does not work on mummies/ghouls/ghasts/wraiths (they're immune to Charmed condition and therefore immune to Hypnotic Pattern), but it does work on skeletons/zombies/wights/vampires because for some reason they're not immune to charm. If your DM alters monsters freely to give them "appropriate" undead immunities, Hypnotic Pattern could get less useful real quick.

If a DM tries this. Remind them that you aren't playing 3.5. I guess some DMs are regrettably doing this. Not all undead are immune to charm and fear because they got rid of the spells from 3.5 that were specific to undead. Its like. Undead are immune to charmed and fear, but there are spells specific to undead that charm and fear them, so someone had the bright idea of just making them not immune to charm and fear, so we don't need a whole set of spells specific to one creature type.

[Snowbluff]

Fear>Hypnotic Pattern > Enemies Abound
If you have a bardic instrument, swap hypnotic pattern and fear (as hypnotic pattern's saves will be made with disadvantage).

I've seen both in a fight, and they both can just ruin an encounter.
Enemies abound is too picky for me. I'd rather have Bestow Curse or Heat Metal.

[MaxWilson]

Fear>Hypnotic Pattern > Enemies Abound

Can you elaborate briefly on what factors cause you to favor Fear over Hypnotic Pattern? I take it you've seen it used by a relatively tanky spellcasters who doesn't mind getting close to the front lines. Do you prefer Fear for the difficulty of breaking it (compared to Hypnotic Pattern's single action wake-up), for the difficulty of recovering after breaking it (have to Dash back as many rounds as you spent Dashing away), for the ability to use it on targets that are immune to charm, or something else?

[Snowbluff]

Can you elaborate briefly on what factors cause you to favor Fear over Hypnotic Pattern? I take it you've seen it used by a relatively tanky spellcasters who doesn't mind getting close to the front lines. Do you prefer Fear for the difficulty of breaking it (compared to Hypnotic Pattern's single action wake-up), for the difficulty of recovering after breaking it (have to Dash back as many rounds as you spent Dashing away), for the ability to use it on targets that are immune to charm, or something else?

I prefer fear because it's harder to break. If you're lucky, you can position yourself in a way so the enemy can't escape. I'd done a few fights where I stuck myself in the way of an exit and spent the fight laughing while the enemies run around like chickens with their heads cut off. When an enemy is forced to dash, they can't take other actions, which shuts down a lot. Furthermore, barring this, if some of them run and some of the others aren't affected, you can just let some people run and have fight these others.

Hypnotic pattern is good when you have a good chance of it landing consistently (hence the Bardic Instrument). When the whole mob is fascinated, you can pick them off one by one. If some make it, they can break your glamour pretty easily.

I'm 50/50 on the immunity. I feel like just as many enemies are immune to fear as they are charm. I usually take Web or something similiar that will work on most things for this.

[RSP]

I’d go Fear over HP as well (and EA would be a distant 3rd).

HP is good, but fairly easily breakable. DM dependent but I’ve always seen it as the targets are distracted by the lights in the sky and it’s not unreasonable for an uneffected friend to slap someone out of it.

Fear not only makes the creatures flee, but they drop what they’re holding (weapons, shields, Magic item or focus). This is especially effective against enemies that use weapons for damage (like other humanoids); even if they break it with a save, they’ll need to spend turns getting back to the fight after having fled, and they’ll be doing so doing 1+Str damage.

Fear is just harder to break and then still adds in unarmed targets taking the time to get back to fight whereas once HP breaks, it’s done.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Folks, if you successfully cast Enemies Abound and it "only affects one creature" you're doing something wrong.

[mephnick]

Folks, if you successfully cast Enemies Abound and it "only affects one creature" you're doing something wrong.

Well, the spell targets one creature and has a chance to do nothing even if successfully cast if the enemy rolls randomly and picks a PC as a target anyway, so I'd say it's a valid negative compared to the other two spells.

[MaxWilson]

Well, the spell targets one creature and has a chance to do nothing even if successfully cast if the enemy rolls randomly and picks a PC as a target anyway, so I'd say it's a valid negative compared to the other two spells.

Its advantages over Confusion are (1) being 3rd level vs. 4th, (2) Int save instead of Wisdom save. "Save on damage" vs. "save every round" might be an advantage or a disadvantage. But overall it's probably worse due to not being AoE and not denying actions/reactions.

That is, Enemies Abound is nearly useless in scenarios where AoEs would be inappropriate, and in scenarios where AoEs would be appropriate you probably want to spend your concentration on Confusion instead (or Web/Confusion/Fear/whatever).

[TheHutz]

Thanks for the replies everyone.


I prefer fear because it's harder to break. If you're lucky, you can position yourself in a way so the enemy can't escape. I'd done a few fights where I stuck myself in the way of an exit and spent the fight laughing while the enemies run around like chickens with their heads cut off. When an enemy is forced to dash, they can't take other actions, which shuts down a lot. Furthermore, barring this, if some of them run and some of the others aren't affected, you can just let some people run and have fight these others.

Hypnotic pattern is good when you have a good chance of it landing consistently (hence the Bardic Instrument). When the whole mob is fascinated, you can pick them off one by one. If some make it, they can break your glamour pretty easily.

I'm 50/50 on the immunity. I feel like just as many enemies are immune to fear as they are charm. I usually take Web or something similiar that will work on most things for this.

Quick question here, what am I missing here that is causing this save at disadvantage? Not sure what you mean by using the bardic instrument, yes, I use one for a focus, just not sure where how it would cause disadvantage.

[MaxWilson]

Quick question here, what am I missing here that is causing this save at disadvantage? Not sure what you mean by using the bardic instrument, yes, I use one for a focus, just not sure where how it would cause disadvantage.

There is a category of magic item in the DMG called something like "Instruments of the Bards" (I forget the exact name). They all have a number of weak-but-useful magical spells attached to them, like Entangle 1/day, but they all have some common powers too, one of which is to impose disadvantage on saves vs. bardic charm spells if you use the item as a focus. I'm AFB but that's the gist, and it means that Hypnotic Pattern (which works via Charm) would be saved against at disadvantage, but Fear/Enemies Abound/Confusion would not benefit.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Well, the spell targets one creature and has a chance to do nothing even if successfully cast if the enemy rolls randomly and picks a PC as a target anyway, so I'd say it's a valid negative compared to the other two spells.

That's what I mean by "doing something wrong" though. It's not a good idea to cast Enemies Abound on a target with PCs adjacent to it.

[Snowbluff]

Thanks for the replies everyone.



Quick question here, what am I missing here that is causing this save at disadvantage? Not sure what you mean by using the bardic instrument, yes, I use one for a focus, just not sure where how it would cause disadvantage.


There is a category of magic item in the DMG called something like "Instruments of the Bards" (I forget the exact name). They all have a number of weak-but-useful magical spells attached to them, like Entangle 1/day, but they all have some common powers too, one of which is to impose disadvantage on saves vs. bardic charm spells if you use the item as a focus. I'm AFB but that's the gist, and it means that Hypnotic Pattern (which works via Charm) would be saved against at disadvantage, but Fear/Enemies Abound/Confusion would not benefit.

Yep, items like the canaith mandolin. You can only use it on spells if the spell has a focus/material requirement, so the number of spells that get the disadvantage benefit are vanishingly small. Thankfully, Hypnotic Pattern is one such spell, and it’s good for many levels.

[sophontteks]

That's what I mean by "doing something wrong" though. It's not a good idea to cast Enemies Abound on a target with PCs adjacent to it.
His point still stands. It may be a good save vs. int, but if you fail, you wasted your turn.

And you have a point. The spell has its niche. But Bards do not have the slots for niche. They are going to have 1-3 3rd level spells total. Picking the right spells means avoiding overlap and picking spells that are going to be useful more often. This is a good spell for a Wizard and a Sorcerer with subtle spell. Its bad for bards.

Phantasmal force is a great level 2 spell that targets int with a wider range of utility. There is no alternative to Fear/HP for AOE cc at 3rd or below though.

[JakOfAllTirades]

His point still stands. It may be a good save vs. int, but if you fail, you wasted your turn.

And you have a point. The spell has its niche. But Bards do not have the slots for niche. They are going to have 1-3 3rd level spells total. Picking the right spells means avoiding overlap and picking spells that are going to be useful more often. This is a good spell for a Wizard and a Sorcerer with subtle spell. Its bad for bards.

Phantasmal force is a great level 2 spell that targets int with a wider range of utility. There is no alternative to Fear/HP for AOE cc at 3rd or below though.

All fair points. My only complaint was the "only affects one creature" statement, which I considered a rather unfair argument against Enemies Abound. If it's got other points against it I have no problem conceding them.

[sophontteks]

All fair points. My only complaint was the "only affects one creature" statement, which I considered a rather unfair argument against Enemies Abound. If it's got other points against it I have no problem conceding them.
I think you were right to point out that used right it can CC multiple things. Fortunately it is an int save.

Did you see my idea about using it with subtle spell?
I wanna play a sorcerer just for that.

[MaxWilson]

I think you were right to point out that used right it can CC multiple things. Fortunately it is an int save.

Did you see my idea about using it with subtle spell?
I wanna play a sorcerer just for that.

Subtle Confusion would probably be even more amusing than Enemies Abound.

[Aaron Underhand]

Subtle Confusion would probably be even more amusing than Enemies Abound.

Subtle twinned enemies abound :-)

[Asmotherion]

Pretty much this. I wouldn't even rate enemies abound as a good spell. Not at third level. There are many first and second level spells that can perform similarly. Namely dissonate whispers at first and phantasmal force at 2nd (which is also an int save and much more flexible.)

If you want single target CC at third level really bad. There is Curse.
- For each round the target must roll wis or lose their turn doing nothing.
- The spell doesn't end if they succeed.
- Its not a charm or fear effect, so no creature resists it.
- You can do whatever you want to the creature without breaking the spell.
- You can upcast it as a 5th level spell and it no longer requires concentration.
- You can upcast it to make it last 24 hours, or even make it permanent.
- You can literally make up your own curses that have their own effects with DM approval.

Its miles and miles better then enemies abound.

Basically this. Bestow curse is far better in compareson, only limited by the fact that it has a range of touch.

If you want to avoid touching your opponents to curse them, get yourself a Fammiliar to do it for you. One who can fly idealy.

Of the 3 mentioned spells, Enemies Abound is the Worse choice IMO.

Fear has a great tactical interest, and so does Hypnotic Pattern. Fear works best with other Synergic Mechanics, wile Hypnotic Pattern is the best standalone choice, which is what I'd recomend for your needs. You seems to want an all-purpose spell, rather than having something specific in mind, and Hypnotic Pattern is great for that purpose.

It's good for getting a Tactical Advantage (fighting one enemy at a time), or a tactical retreat without getting followed.

[MaxWilson]

Subtle twinned enemies abound :-)

It's illegal to combine metamagics besides Empowered.

[sophontteks]

Subtle Confusion would probably be even more amusing than Enemies Abound.
It would. Subtle some catapult to make it really confusing.
"The gods have turned on us! Repent! REPENT!!!"

[Slayn82]

I just realized that it's theoretically possible to chain Hypnotic Pattern into College of Glamour Bard's Enthralling Performance. If you can pull it off, it's damn nasty.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I think you were right to point out that used right it can CC multiple things. Fortunately it is an int save.

Did you see my idea about using it with subtle spell?
I wanna play a sorcerer just for that.

I love the idea. I'm currently playing a Warlock but I'm gonna show this thread to our group's Sorcerer.