Druid monk multiclass

[Bnewby724@gmail]

Would the bonus to unarmed damage remain while in beast form. Any additional advice on this build would be awesome.

[hymer]

Would the bonus to unarmed damage remain while in beast form. Any additional advice on this build would be awesome.
Ask your DM. Ask your DM until s/he cries. Because there's really very little that's clear about how monk abilities and druid wild shape interact with each other, and your DM is unlikely to have thought much about it. Many DMs will also not be competent to predict the ramifications of a given ruling on these matters.

[samcifer]

Would the bonus to unarmed damage remain while in beast form. Any additional advice on this build would be awesome.

Actually, I'm wondering the same for martial arts if you chose claws as your kensei weapon.

[BaconAwesome]

For what it's worth, Sage Advice seems open to allowing monk open handed combat in wild form as long as the druid uses unarmed combat, not teeth/claws etc. (And using unarmored armor class instead of the natural AC if desired)

https://www.sageadvice.eu/?s=monk+druid

So you could presumably play Kung Fu Panda and use the beast form as a hit point bank and for movement, but you can't use the bite or claw attacks if you want to flurry etc.

[nickl_2000]

Would the bonus to unarmed damage remain while in beast form. Any additional advice on this build would be awesome.

If you are a monk you can choose. You can either use the beasts attack bonus and damage or you can use the ones from Monk. Let's say you are a level 8 character (level 6 monk and level 2 Moon Druid) and you are in Brown Bear Form. When you take an attack action you can you may choose to use the bear attack for 1 bite at +5, 1d8+4 and 1 claw at +5, 2d6+4. Or you can use your monk attacks to make an unarmed strike for 2 attacks at +7 to hit (+4 str +3 prof) at 1d6 damage for each strike. Then you can bonus action strike unarmed.



Actually, I'm wondering the same for martial arts if you chose claws as your kensei weapon.

No, Kensei cannot be claws from beast form. Kensei specificially say a melee weapon and ranged weapon. Claws are neither of those. They are natural weapons.

[NaughtyTiger]

My DM and I argued about this... in the end, he agreed that a tiger could still move with the grace of a guy practicing martial arts based on grace of a tiger.

[stoutstien]

Just to be clear the bear's multi attack is not the attack action so no flurry of blows. Ac should work just fine but honestly barkskin is on your spell list for low ac forms

[Maelynn]

Brown Bear Form. [...] you can use your monk attacks to make an unarmed strike for 2 attacks at +7 to hit (+4 str +3 prof) at 1d6 damage for each strike. Then you can bonus action strike unarmed.


Claws are neither of those. They are natural weapons.

You seem to be contradicting yourself there. Since you concur that claws are natural weapons, they count as weapons. Hence no unarmed attack, hence no bonus action.

[nickl_2000]

You seem to be contradicting yourself there. Since you concur that claws are natural weapons, they count as weapons. Hence no unarmed attack, hence no bonus action.

Then it was a failure to write clearly. Your choice is

1) Use the bear multiattack, bear attack bonus, bear damage, with no bonus attack
OR
2) Use the monk attack action, monk attack bonus, monk damage, and get a bonus attack due to it being a martial art strike

[ciarannihill]

Would the bonus to unarmed damage remain while in beast form. Any additional advice on this build would be awesome.

The real hurdle with a build like this, assuming your DM is okay with it (which, regardless of RAW, they may or may not be), is that both classes scale with level investment primarily. Monk's Martial Arts die and Ki Points scale with Monk level and Wild Shapes scales with Druid level, meaning it might be worthwhile to think about in advance if there are specific Wild Shape forms you intend to use, and break down your level ups with the intention of hitting those points efficiently with Monk levels filling in the gaps. If I had to do a rough and ready version of the build I'd probably go:


V. Human Shadow Monk 11 / Moon Druid 9
8 Str / 16 Dex / 15 (16) Con / 8 Int / 16 Wis / 8 Cha
Starting with Resilient [Con] and just play into being this forest hermit who learned magic and martial arts from nature.
or

Wood Elf Moon Druid 12 / Any Monk 8
8 Str / 17 Dex / 14 Con / 10 Int / 16 Wis / 8 Cha
If you want to go a bit more straightforward and lean more into stronger Wildshapes


I think the Wildshapes of choice would depend a bit on what a DM would allow to use Martial Arts, if they want it semi-humanoid I think it'd be Brown Bear for CR1, Polar/Cave Bear for CR2, and I'm honestly not sure for CR3, maybe the Giant Scorpion? If they're open to anything, you still might want Brown Bear earlier on because of Unarmored Defense beefing it's rather low AC and it's naturally high HP pool -- I think this is basically how to select, pick creatures with high HP pools, but weaker AC so other Monk features impact their combat ability than Martial Arts.

I don't exactly have a comprehensive beast list in front of me, though, so grain of salt that I might be missing something huge.

As for Feats, the obvious ones are things like Sentinel, Magic Initiate, or Resilient [Con], but I'd absolutely max Wisdom before doing anything else.


I'd go Druid 2, then begin working in Monk levels until probably 5 for the Extra Attack and Stunning Strike. From there play it by ear depending on what Wildshapes and/or Monk Features you want to prioritize.

[Corpsecandle717]

No, Kensei cannot be claws from beast form. Kensei specificially say a melee weapon and ranged weapon. Claws are neither of those. They are natural weapons.

I think you got some wires a bit crossed here. Melee natural weapons count as melee weapons, however they do not count as Simple or Martial weapons and therefore do not qualify as Kensai weapons. Is that what you meant?

I'd also argue there's probably some weird interactions with wild-shape and weapon proficiency. A druid doesn't gain proficiency with a natural attack from their class, instead they inherit that proficiency from the animal form they adopt when they use wild-shape. So would a Kensai have to pick 'Bear Claw' as their chosen weapon and therefore never get their associated weapon abilities while in humanoid form, or any other beast form?

[Maelynn]

Then it was a failure to write clearly. Your choice is

1) Use the bear multiattack, bear attack bonus, bear damage, with no bonus attack
OR
2) Use the monk attack action, monk attack bonus, monk damage, and get a bonus attack due to it being a martial art strike

Thank you for the clarification. However, I still believe that option 2 is not possible while wildshaped - claws are natural weapons, whereas an unarmed strike is either unarmed or with a Monk weapon. Like Corpsecandle just said, a natural weapon is not classified as a Monk weapon. So the criteria are not met when attacking with claws.

Unless I completely misunderstood you and you meant a bear grabbing a quarterstaff or sickle and attack with that. Because if so, then you're absolutely correct in getting the bonuses of option 2.

[samcifer]

LOL! this debate reminded me of an old commercial:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84bBzAxLXFY

[Corpsecandle717]

Thank you for the clarification. However, I still believe that option 2 is not possible while wildshaped - claws are natural weapons, whereas an unarmed strike is either unarmed or with a Monk weapon. Like Corpsecandle just said, a natural weapon is not classified as a Monk weapon. So the criteria are not met when attacking with claws.

Unless I completely misunderstood you and you meant a bear grabbing a quarterstaff or sickle and attack with that. Because if so, then you're absolutely correct in getting the bonuses of option 2.

There's this weird grey area around beasts with claws and unarmed strikes. According to Crawford, anything can make an unarmed attack. https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/702206177002688512?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E702206177002688512&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2016%2F0 3%2F21%2Fhow-do-wild-shape-attacks-interact-with-unarmed-strikes%2F

So while a bear has claws (natural melee weapons) that deal 2d6+(STR), they can also somehow make an unarmed attack that deals the standard 1+(STR) as per the PHB. That 1+(STR) attack is where option 2 comes in. Taking a level in monk would increased this 'unarmed attack' to 1d6+(STR) and allow flurry of blows etc, while the claw attack remains unaltered at 2d6+(STR).

[stoutstien]

What is it with bear for low lv moon druids? 19 is not hard to lose at 11 ac compared to wolf if you have buddies that beat on things up close with pack tactics and prone or my favorite is gaint hyena only 12 ac but souch hp that up to lv 4 you will have more than the rest of the party combined. Then you get to yell RAMPAGE every round and chew up mooks like a blender.
And I reiterate if you're not planning on going all the way to level 20 one level dip in Monk Is Great to increase your AC but I still think going all druid is better.

[hymer]

What is it with bear for low lv moon druids? 19 is not hard to lose at 11 ac
Are you thinking of the black bear there? Those are CR ½, and not likely to be wild shaped to for combat purposes by any moon druid. Brown bears get 34 hp IIRC.

It may be worth pointing out that low AC is a sort of hidden benefit if you combine it with Barkskin. The low AC is compensated in the CR budget by higher attack stats or hit points. If you're going to set the AC to 16 regardless of what it was before, you'll get better overall stats if you start with a low AC.

But really, why bear? Because bears are cool, and will [expletive deleted] kill you. :smallbiggrin: Seriously, they deal about twice the damage of the other (non-flying) options at that CR. They also have decent (very near average, IIRC, it's been a while since I did the numbercrunching) hp for that CR. When in doubt, go bear.

[Vogie]

There's this weird grey area around beasts with claws and unarmed strikes. According to Crawford, anything can make an unarmed attack. https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/702206177002688512?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E702206177002688512&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2016%2F0 3%2F21%2Fhow-do-wild-shape-attacks-interact-with-unarmed-strikes%2F

So while a bear has claws (natural melee weapons) that deal 2d6+(STR), they can also somehow make an unarmed attack that deals the standard 1+(STR) as per the PHB. That 1+(STR) attack is where option 2 comes in. Taking a level in monk would increased this 'unarmed attack' to 1d6+(STR) and allow flurry of blows etc, while the claw attack remains unaltered at 2d6+(STR).

That is correct - Unarmed attacks are explicitly referenced as headbutts, kicks and punches (I believe in the PHB), and you can extrapolate elbows, knees, and other flailing/slapping/wrestling moves from there. If you've got claws, you can still backhand a fool.

[Maelynn]

(I believe in the PHB)

Don't forget to clap your hands while you say that, or somewhere a book might lose its pages and drop dead. ;)

Seriously though, I can see how a beast could make an unarmed attack if you mean having it suckerpunch the target, or bitchslap it. Just as long as it doesn't use its actual claws, because then it's not unarmed anymore, right?

[rbstr]

The crux of this issue is that NPC stat blocks don't use the same rules as PCs. An example is the Brown Bear's "Multiattack", that's not the same thing as a PC's usual attack action and doesn't interact with Extra Attack ect.

So your wild shaped druid monk could use either Multiattack and do the bite and claw or you could make a regular attack w/ unarmed strike and benefit from extra attack and martial arts ect.
The unarmed strike could be described as whatever...but it's doing monk die + str (or dex...) and does bludgeoning.

Also get to use unarmed defense. Pretty decent buff to the bear is you have decent wis. But remember it's the bear's dex you'd use not the PC's


I think you got some wires a bit crossed here. Melee natural weapons count as melee weapons, however they do not count as Simple or Martial weapons and therefore do not qualify as Kensai weapons. Is that what you meant?


The latter: A Kensei can't pick Bear Claw as a Kensei weapon. It has to be a Simple or Martial weapon the Bear's claws are not that.

[Maelynn]

Also get to use unarmed defense. Pretty decent buff to the bear is you have decent wis. But remember it's the bear's dex you'd use not the PC's

Except that a bear has natural armour, so you're not unarmoured. You don't get to add your WIS.

[stoutstien]

Except that a bear has natural armour, so you're not unarmoured. You don't get to add your WIS.
You get to pick whatever formula for armor that's available to you so one level dip in Monk you could use 10 +Dex+Wis instead of natural armor. Like I said bark skin is probably better in most occurrences

[sophontteks]

Barkskin is a concentration spell and it only lasts an hour. It'd be a be step up for a moon druid to concentrate on something else and just have that improved AC always. Even if barkskin may provide a little more AC, the value can be found being able to cast other great druidic concentration spells.

[Maelynn]

You get to pick whatever formula for armor that's available to you

Not if the natural armour is literally part of the wildshape. A bear's skin is thick enough to provide a bonus to AC, you can't ignore that just because it suits you better. It's not like regular armour that you can take off... unless you were to skin yourself, which I wouldn't recommend.

[Kadesh]

Not if the natural armour is literally part of the wildshape. A bear's skin is thick enough to provide a bonus to AC, you can't ignore that just because it suits you better. It's not like regular armour that you can take off... unless you were to skin yourself, which I wouldn't recommend.

If you are using your heightened sense of awareness as a monk ability to parry aside or dodge blows, then the Bears tough hide is irrelevant as it never gets hit. That said: rules here.

ARMOR CLASS
A monster that wears armor or carries a shield has an Armor Class (AC) that takes its armor, shield, and Dexterity into account. Otherwise, a monster's AC is based on its Dexterity modifier and natural armor, if any. If a monster has natural armor, wears armor, or carries a shield, this is noted in parentheses after its AC value.

Unarmored Defense
Beginning at 1st level, while you are wearing no armor and not wielding a Shield, your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifier.

Natural armour is still armour.

[Lunali]

Natural armour is still armour.

Natural armor does not count as wearing armor for unarmored defense, this is as much true for bears as it is for tortles and warforged. (though warforged also have options that do count as wearing armor) You do not, however, benefit from both, you have to choose between them for calculating your AC.

[ciarannihill]

Natural armor does not count as wearing armor for unarmored defense, this is as much true for bears as it is for tortles and warforged. (though warforged also have options that do count as wearing armor) You do not, however, benefit from both, you have to choose between them for calculating your AC.

I was under this same impression, that Natural Armor did not preclude Unarmored Defense, as with Lizardfolk and Tortles. Could be incorrect, but it seems unnecessary to make the distinction for balance reasons, so I'm not sure why they would add it and cause confusion.

[Kadesh]

Natural armor does not count as wearing armor for unarmored defense, this is as much true for bears as it is for tortles and warforged. (though warforged also have options that do count as wearing armor) You do not, however, benefit from both, you have to choose between them for calculating your AC.
Source, please.

[Lunali]

Source, please.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-january-2016

[samcifer]

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-january-2016

"These methods—along with any others that give you a formula for calculating your AC—are mutually exclusive; you can benefit from only one at a time. If you have access to more than one, you pick which one to use. For example, if you’re a sorcerer/monk, you can use either Unarmored Defense or Draconic Resilience, not both. Similarly, a druid/barbarian who transforms into a beast form that has natural armor can use either the beast’s natural armor or Unarmored Defense (you aren’t considered to be wearing armor with natural armor)."

[hymer]

@ Natural Armor and Unarmored Defense: I think you can get developers to say either thing on whether one prevents the other, depending on what leg you catch them on. Here (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/01/unarmored-druid-monk/)'s a fun one, where Mearls says one thing ('natural armor counts as armor'), then rules the other way (so you can use unarmored defence regardless of that). And an unhelpful one (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/29/natural-armor/) from Crawford, which refuses to resolve the issue.
What none of them will say is that the effects stack (which makes all kinds of sense, so well done on that one).

In other words, ask your DM.

[sophontteks]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sageadvice.eu/2017/09/20/how-does-tortle-natural-armor-and-unarmored-defence-work/amp/

Natural armor is always on, because you aren't wearing it. Unarmored defense says "When you are wearing no armor." Well, you aren't wearing armor.

It'd be bad form to bar certain races from using major class features because they have natural armor. Its supposed to be an advantage (though that is questionable.)

That said they also don't stack. But most critters don't have much for natural armor anyway. Brown bear has a whopping 1 natural armor, for example.

[Kadesh]

Thanks all :)

[BoxANT]

rule of cool

a bear doing kung fu is cool

a raging bear doing kung fu is even cooler

[Theodoxus]

What is it with bear for low lv moon druids? 19 is not hard to lose at 11 ac compared to wolf if you have buddies that beat on things up close with pack tactics and prone or my favorite is gaint hyena only 12 ac but souch hp that up to lv 4 you will have more than the rest of the party combined. Then you get to yell RAMPAGE every round and chew up mooks like a blender.
And I reiterate if you're not planning on going all the way to level 20 one level dip in Monk Is Great to increase your AC but I still think going all druid is better.

I'll see your hyena and raise you a giant spider. Way better abilities, higher damage, web that can restrain at young green dragon... sure, don't fight dwarves or yuan-ti, but you can always go hyena for that :smallwink:

[stoutstien]

I'll see your hyena and raise you a giant spider. Way better abilities, higher damage, web that can restrain at young green dragon... sure, don't fight dwarves or yuan-ti, but you can always go hyena for that :smallwink:
Forgot bout Spidey , same idea bear is overrated for low lv moon druid