Wizard with int 3 philosophical question

[gooddragon1]

So a wizard starts out with a spellbook that has a number of cantrips and first level spells in it. How does a wizard with an int of 3 manage this when they can't even cast those spells?

Bonus question: How do they have a familiar?

[Nifft]

How does a Wizard with Int 3 cast spells?

Law of Comedy is how, because there's no other reason to make such a character except as comic relief.

"You'd best start believing in punchlines and shaggy dog stories. You're in one."

[ViperMagnum357]

Beat things to death with a club and soak up party experience through roleplaying non-combat, non-knowledge related tasks. You are a liability in combat, but may still be able to serve as a party face and handle odd jobs.

Strive to survive until you can afford a +4 headband of Intellect to coincide with your third ability increase at level 12, and start casting Cantrips. By level 20, you will have a towering Int of 8 and a +6 Headband, allowing you to cast your 4th level spells and finally put the player with that Sword n' Board Fighter in their place. Upgrade to +12 by spending 5/6 of your total wealth at 24, bringing you up to 21 with your 6th increase and capable of casting Epic Spells plus 10/11th level metamagic slots. By that point you are a Wizard with low save DCs, most of your wealth tied up in 1 stat boosting item and relatively few spells per day, which is to say you will still be better than 90%+ of other classes by a significant margin.

They have a familiar because there are no real prereqs, so the poor thing looks like a miniature frankenstein's monster got run through a meat grinder and stitched back together by someone with sausages taped to their fingers.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Pay someone to cast polymorph any object at least once, and then turn yourself into a sarrukh. Enjoy your +27 Int. Then you can swap minds with someone else and use their body, instead.

[ericgrau]

Oddly enough in 5e you can be an int 3 wizard and as long as you avoid spells with save DCs it's totally fine.

In 3e you go without spellcasting until you get enough magic items to let you cast. And yet in the meantime you somehow keep adding spells to your spellbook from level up research. So as for the explanation... Level 1, that's easy. A classmate helped you. Maybe you copied off of him. Familiar ditto, you buy the supplies and do what your bud showed you even though you have no idea why it works. Same thing for any spells you find. You fail the spellcraft check many times but eventually you copy something. Or worse you copy something every time but you have no idea if you passed your spellcraft check and copied it correctly. Spells gained from leveling research hmm... hmmm... this is tough. Let me check the rule: "At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast". Aha, you can't cast any spells so therefore you don't get new spells at level up. Problem solved.

In 2e the wizard class actually had an int pre-req. I see becoming a wizard is getting easier and easier as the editions progress. In 6e any commoner will be able to become a wizard by buying a box of tricks at the magic store.

[Necroticplague]

So a wizard starts out with a spellbook that has a number of cantrips and first level spells in it. How does a wizard with an int of 3 manage this when they can't even cast those spells?

Bonus question: How do they have a familiar?

Because the ability to write spells in a spellbook doesn't require the ability to cast anything. They can simply be highly boned up on their arcane theory, even if they personally lack the ability to use the results of it.

[daremetoidareyo]

Wizard 5 can take the domain granted power act in complete champion. Key that to the madness domain. Now you get an insanity score to add to your casting attribute! And, if you read that domain really closely, your casting stat is now wisdom.

Dumb and crazy! Role-playing gold be in them thar hills

You just need to survive five levels
with no spells and a D4 for hit points.

[ViperMagnum357]

You just need to survive five levels
with no spells and a D4 for hit points.

And 1/2 BAB, and one good save, and cross-class on Hide/Move Silently/Spot/Listen/Bluff/the rest of the party face skills...

[Necroticplague]

You can use wands and scrolls just as well as any other wizard, though.

[Nifft]

You can use wands and scrolls just as well as any other wizard, though.

Wands: yes.

Scrolls, though? Nope (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#activatetheSpell).

[Maat Mons]

You could always side-step the issue with the Eidetic Spellcaster alternative class feature. You'd lose both your familiar and spellbook.

As for getting your int up from a terrible base, hmm. Age up to venerable, then become a necropolitain? Candle of invocation cheese for the +5 inherent bonus granted by Wish? Faustian pact for +1? Get addicted to haunspeir and mushroom powder? Ability Enhancer and Fell Energy Spell added onto whatever int-boosting spell? Make a UMD check for Horseshoes of Flame? Focus Caster (transmutation) to 1/day double the ability score bonus provided by a spell?

[Kelb_Panthera]

As far as I can tell, none of what you've asked about is actually gated behind an intelligence score minimum. Simple as that, really.

Could be fun for a silly one-off game.

[gooddragon1]

As far as I can tell, none of what you've asked about is actually gated behind an intelligence score minimum. Simple as that, really.

Could be fun for a silly one-off game.

I know, but how does a guy with an int of 3 scribe the complex magical formulas required for spells? He's barely smarter than an animal. And I mean he scribes them well enough that they require a spellcraft (or read magic spell) check to decipher them like any other scroll would.

[Mordaedil]

I know, but how does a guy with an int of 3 scribe the complex magical formulas required for spells? He's barely smarter than an animal. And I mean he scribes them well enough that they require a spellcraft (or read magic spell) check to decipher them like any other scroll would.
Well, you don't, because you can't. The rules won't allow you unless you beef up your casting stat. You might posess the feat, but you can't actually use the feat without the ability to cast spells. Your starting spellbook might simply be one you inherited, but it's never stated that you wrote the book yourself. The only spell you can prepare without a spellbook is read magic and because you have less than 10 int, you can't even do that.

[OgresAreCute]

Well, you don't, because you can't. The rules won't allow you unless you beef up your casting stat. You might posess the feat, but you can't actually use the feat without the ability to cast spells. Your starting spellbook might simply be one you inherited, but it's never stated that you wrote the book yourself. The only spell you can prepare without a spellbook is read magic and because you have less than 10 int, you can't even do that.

A wizard with low int still adds 2 new spells to his book per level, doesn't he? Where do those come from, if he doesn't research/write them himself?

[Mordaedil]

A wizard with low int still adds 2 new spells to his book per level, doesn't he? Where do those come from, if he doesn't research/write them himself?
If I had to write an excuse for a 3-int wizard into a game, I would say he comes back his master and receives extra spells from him, and he just hopes his student one day will be able to use them. I don't think it has to be explicitly the characters own research adding new spells. It just happens by convenience.

Admittedly I am not even sure if it works even then. The text simply implies the added spells are simply things you were working on while adventuring, and without the intellect to use it, maybe this research is impossible to begin with.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I know, but how does a guy with an int of 3 scribe the complex magical formulas required for spells? He's barely smarter than an animal. And I mean he scribes them well enough that they require a spellcraft (or read magic spell) check to decipher them like any other scroll would.

Very slowly and with great difficulty and quite probably with -lots- of crossed off mistakes. He's certainly more justified than most in taking whole days to scribe new spells. I would suppose that while he can wrap his less than stellar intellect around each of the small pieces of any given spell, he just can't quite get his head around the whole thing at once, even if it's just a cantrip.

[gooddragon1]

Very slowly and with great difficulty and quite probably with -lots- of crossed off mistakes. He's certainly more justified than most in taking whole days to scribe new spells. I would suppose that while he can wrap his less than stellar intellect around each of the small pieces of any given spell, he just can't quite get his head around the whole thing at once, even if it's just a cantrip.

For the next mindblower, imagine it's a barbarian who was illiterate (with int 3 of course) and took a level in wizard when reaching level 2. Theoretically he just wrote those spells overnight (since if he had the intelligence he could decipher them without needing a spellcraft check or read magic spell).

[Maat Mons]

Ooh! Ooh! how about a grippli wizard! Their racial illiteracy doesn't care what classes you take!

[Kelb_Panthera]

For the next mindblower, imagine it's a barbarian who was illiterate (with int 3 of course) and took a level in wizard when reaching level 2. Theoretically he just wrote those spells overnight (since if he had the intelligence he could decipher them without needing a spellcraft check or read magic spell).

See now I'm imagining a spellbook full of crude pictograms and short words and hash marks instead of numbers.:smallbiggrin:

[gooddragon1]

See now I'm imagining a spellbook full of crude pictograms and short words and hash marks instead of numbers.:smallbiggrin:

"Stony Taark wrote those spells in a cave! WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!"

[OgresAreCute]

See now I'm imagining a spellbook full of crude pictograms and short words and hash marks instead of numbers.:smallbiggrin:

Every page of the spellbook is filled with stalemate tic-tac-toe games.

[grarrrg]

For the next mindblower, imagine it's a barbarian who was illiterate (with int 3 of course) and took a level in wizard when reaching level 2. Theoretically he just wrote those spells overnight (since if he had the intelligence he could decipher them without needing a spellcraft check or read magic spell).

See now I'm imagining a spellbook full of crude pictograms and short words and hash marks instead of numbers.:smallbiggrin:

Every page of the spellbook is filled with stalemate tic-tac-toe games.

Now y'all done it.
I'm linking THE THREAD (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?195049-Help-Me-Be-Annoying-with-a-Barbarian-Wizard).

[Duke of Urrel]

I would recommend that your character wear a pointed hat with the word "Wizzard" emblazoned on it, and that your character take the Run feat.

http://discworld.wikia.com/wiki/Rincewind

[Ghen]

A wizard with low int still adds 2 new spells to his book per level, doesn't he? Where do those come from, if he doesn't research/write them himself?


Spells gained from leveling research hmm... hmmm... this is tough. Let me check the rule: "At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast". Aha, you can't cast any spells so therefore you don't get new spells at level up. Problem solved.

The forum won't let me post quotes alone without a message, so that is why this sentence exists.

[Quertus]

Wizard 5 can take the domain granted power act in complete champion. Key that to the madness domain. Now you get an insanity score to add to your casting attribute! And, if you read that domain really closely, your casting stat is now wisdom.

Dumb and crazy! Role-playing gold be in them thar hills

You just need to survive five levels
with no spells and a D4 for hit points.


See now I'm imagining a spellbook full of crude pictograms and short words and hash marks instead of numbers.:smallbiggrin:


"Stony Taark wrote those spells in a cave! WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!"

I've wanted to make an int 3 Wizard for some time now - thanks for giving me the know-how to see a way to do so and not be the load.

[ericgrau]

Besides wands, an int 3 wizard can use staffs. He can even use his higher caster level in place of the staff's. His int sets the save DC though, so best to pick no save spells.

The best part is that he may craft these staffs himself. Because you only need to know the spell, not cast it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm). In fact you can prepare the spell, and it is expended while crafting as if you had cast it, but at no point do you actually cast it. And you don't need a high stat for any of these things, only for casting the spell.

For that matter he may craft all kinds of other magic items too.

So you can make a wizard fully dependent on his staff and other items to use spells at all. Meanwhile he is quite useful at gearing up the party. I kinda want to do this now.
EDIT: If I did make such a character, are there any good effects I can use by trading in my useless spell slots?

[Telonius]

With an Int of 3, they have a Raven familiar. The Raven is the one that casts the spells.

[Maat Mons]

Wizard 5 can take the domain granted power act in complete champion. Key that to the madness domain. Now you get an insanity score to add to your casting attribute! And, if you read that domain really closely, your casting stat is now wisdom.

Only the Defenders of the Faith version of the Madness domain did anything remotely like what you describe. The Complete Divine and Spell Compendium versions sure don't. Even the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil version, which at least references an insanity score, doesn't actually give you one.

Also, the Defenders of the Faith version is a prestige domain,which can't be taken in place of a regular domain.

Also also, the Defenders of the Faith version says you treat your modified wisdom score in place of wisdom alone. Which means yo do not use your modified wisdom score in any situation where you would not normally use wisdom in the first place.

But, anyway, it's a moot point, because now the madness domain does this:

Granted Power: Your insanity gives you insight. You subtract 1 from all Wisdom-based skill checks and all Will saves. However, once per day, you can see and act with the clarity of true madness: Add one-half your level to a single Wisdom-based skill check or Will save. You must choose to use this benefit before the check or save is rolled.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Besides wands, an int 3 wizard can use staffs. He can even use his higher caster level in place of the staff's. His int sets the save DC though, so best to pick no save spells.

The best part is that he may craft these staffs himself. Because you only need to know the spell, not cast it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm). In fact you can prepare the spell, and it is expended while crafting as if you had cast it, but at no point do you actually cast it. And you don't need a high stat for any of these things, only for casting the spell.

For that matter he may craft all kinds of other magic items too.

So you can make a wizard fully dependent on his staff and other items to use spells at all. Meanwhile he is quite useful at gearing up the party. I kinda want to do this now.

Unfortunately, no. From the same page, further down;

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingStaffs


The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material and XP component costs sufficient to activate the spell a maximum number of times (50 divided by the number of charges one use of the spell expends). This is in addition to the XP cost for making the staff itself. Material components are consumed when he begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a staff can be reused.) The act of working on the staff triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the staff’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.

Emphasis, mine.

The rules for other items share that clause. You -can- get around that with spells stored in items like scrolls, wands, or (my personal favorite) schema but that rather defeats your intended purpose here.

There might be something with runestaves but I'd have to double check.

[Zaq]

EDIT: If I did make such a character, are there any good effects I can use by trading in my useless spell slots?

Gotcha covered. (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?541032-Spell-slots-as-(not-literal)-quot-currency-quot) The discussion in that thread is almost certainly incomplete, but it might give you a decent jumping-off point.

[ericgrau]

Unfortunately, no. From the same page, further down;

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingStaffs



Emphasis, mine.

The rules for other items share that clause. You -can- get around that with spells stored in items like scrolls, wands, or (my personal favorite) schema but that rather defeats your intended purpose here.

There might be something with runestaves but I'd have to double check.

At no point in any of that creation process do you actually cast the spell though. The closest part is that the spell is expended just as if it had been cast. But it's still not cast; it's only similarly lost. Likewise you don't need a high casting stat to prepare the spell, etc. Only to cast it.

Actually on a reread I noticed "The act of working on the staff triggers the prepared spells". That part is actually closer to casting the spell, and some DMs might interpret it as casting the spell into the item. Other item creation has similar wording, so getting this clarified makes a huge difference on whether or not you can craft in general.


Gotcha covered. (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?541032-Spell-slots-as-(not-literal)-quot-currency-quot) The discussion in that thread is almost certainly incomplete, but it might give you a decent jumping-off point.
Awesomesauce. Subscription added for future reference. Among many others I noticed channel charge which lets you use a spell slot in place of a staff's charge. The spell slot has to be 1 level higher than the staff spell, but that at least reduces your charge usage enough that staff spamming can last the useful lifespan of the staff before it's time to upgrade.

[Kelb_Panthera]

At no point in any of that creation process do you actually cast the spell though. The closest part is that the spell is expended just as if it had been cast. But it's still not cast; it's only similarly lost. Likewise you don't need a high casting stat to prepare the spell, etc. Only to cast it.

Actually on a reread I noticed "The act of working on the staff triggers the prepared spells". That part is actually closer to casting the spell, and some DMs might interpret it as casting the spell into the item.




Oh. Whoops.


To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard

Really wish they'd put all this in one place.

Seems our int 3 wizard has a blank spellbook.

[ericgrau]

@^ Oh darn, that puts a damper on things. But is very helpful for this thread. Yes, it is very annoying that if I look for the same thing in the ability score rules it only says cast.

Any way to temporarily boost int into the teens for, say, an hour each morning? Bonus points if it's impractical for combat.

On the plus side I noticed channel charge may use either a spell slot or a prepared spell, so it's still good even without any prepared spells. And many abilities are worded the same way. Worst case you have to buy your staffs.

[daremetoidareyo]

Madness domain in the SRD yo: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm

They are either sourcing that from unearthed arcana or dieties and demidogs which was updated to 3.5 in 2003 according to the update booklet. So, you'de have to get permission to use that version instead of the one printed in september 2005, preceded by june 2004 in the eberron campaign setting and Complete divine's being printed in may 2004.

[gooddragon1]

Oh. Whoops.



http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard

Really wish they'd put all this in one place.

Seems our int 3 wizard has a blank spellbook.




A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own.



Not quite.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not quite.

It's heavily implied in lore that wizards are taught. Perhaps the cantrips and level one spells are an artifact of the wizard's prior schooling. Or perhaps RAW doesn't always 100% make perfect sense in weird corner cases.

[ericgrau]

Maybe he starts with that spellbook, but stole it in wizard school and never actually learned the spells? But yeah that's more RAW than RAI and is pushing it.

[zergling.exe]

Madness domain in the SRD yo: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm

They are either sourcing that from unearthed arcana or dieties and demidogs which was updated to 3.5 in 2003 according to the update booklet. So, you'de have to get permission to use that version instead of the one printed in september 2005, preceded by june 2004 in the eberron campaign setting and Complete divine's being printed in may 2004.

December 2005 SpC has Madness domain without any mention of insanity. What book exactly is the SRD pulling from? The only domain I could locate in UA was a modified Luck domain.

[Jeraa]

December 2005 SpC has Madness domain without any mention of insanity. What book exactly is the SRD pulling from? The only domain I could locate in UA was a modified Luck domain.

Deities & Demigods. A 3.0 book.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Oddly enough in 5e you can be an int 3 wizard and as long as you avoid spells with save DCs it's totally fine

No you can't, because it also determines both your spell attack rolls and the number of spells you can prepare per day. Or in such a pitiful character's case, spell. Singular.

[ericgrau]

No you can't, because it also determines both your spell attack rolls and the number of spells you can prepare per day. Or in such a pitiful character's case, spell. Singular.

So spells without attack rolls, without save DCs, and 1 per spell level and/or augmentable ones. You still get as many spell slots as far as I can see, just less spells known. So that's a major issue for a while at int 3. But you might do ok with an int 8. So not so easy after all, but still not as restrictive as 3.5e.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

1 per spell level and/or augmentable ones.

No. One spell prepared, full stop. "Choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum 1 spell). Theoretically an int 3 wizard of 6th level or higher will get more, but the chances of the character actually lasting that long really aren't worth entertaining.



But you might do ok with an int 8. So not so easy after all, but still not as restrictive as 3.5e.

No, it's worse, because in exchange for being marginally less useless at low levels you don't actually have any way of fixing it - there's pretty much no way to fix it with 5e magic, and you need int 13 to multiclass out of wizard. The 3.5 idiot-wizard, meanwhile, can either try and get a party member to use one of the various magical shenanigans to alleviate the problem, or just start taking levels in barbarian so they can actually do something.

[ericgrau]

With int 8, knowing 4 spells at level 5 sucks but it's not the end of the world. You get just as many spell slots as any other wizard. Pick 4 spells you can augment and/or spam. If you have int 8 in 3.5e the solution is to do something other than cast wizard spells. Which while easier with 3.5e than 5e, it's a bit more fuzzy of an answer.

[ShurikVch]

Even the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil version, which at least references an insanity score, doesn't actually give you one.Actually, the book says:
Regardless of whether they select the Madness domain, all clerics of Tharizdun and the Elder Elemental Eye share one common aspect: They are insane. To reach beyond the veil and draw upon the power of Tharizdun is to touch madness itself, and no one can do so and come back unchanged.
As a special rule, every cleric of Tharizdun or the Elder Elemental Eye gains an Insanity score equal to half his cleric level (count any doomdreamer levels as cleric levels for the purpose of calculating this score). For spellcasting (determining bonus spells and DCs), add this score to the cleric's Wisdom score and use the result in place of Wisdom alone. For all other purposes, such as skill checks and saving throws, subtract this score from the cleric’s Wisdom score and use the result in place of Wisdom alone. This means that the spells of the servants of the Dark God are very difficult to resist, but those servants are in general unaware of their surroundings and act imprudently - often erratically.Thus, Madness domain have no need to give Insanity score - all relevant Clerics already have it
And for non-Clerics...
Well, it were the first days of 3E era - they're, apparently, never thought about it
For example, Doomdreamer PrC progressing Cleric spellcasting (not even just "Divine", but "Cleric"!), except nothing in the requirements, actually, says you should be a Cleric in order to become a Doomdreamer (Wizard may qualify easily. Bard? Too!)



Seems our int 3 wizard has a blank spellbook.Speaking about...
Maybe, Arcane Disciple?
You may learn these spells as normal for your class; however, you use Wisdom (rather than the normal ability for your spellcasting) when determining the save DC for the spell. In addition, you must have a Wisdom score equal to 10 + the spell's level in order to prepare or cast a spell gained from this feat.

[King of Nowhere]

We had a discussion about the eventuality of a monkey getting a headband of intellect +6 and some int boost through wish and becoming a respectable wizard...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

We had a discussion about the eventuality of a monkey getting a headband of intellect +6 and some int boost through wish and becoming a respectable wizard...Well, you know what they say about monkeys and typewriters. And Shakespeare WAS supposed to be a wiz on the stage.

[Quertus]

Well, you know what they say about monkeys and typewriters. And Shakespeare WAS supposed to be a wiz on the stage.

I don't want to hear about that! And, if he had such bad stage fright that he'd wiz on stage, maybe he should have chosen a different profession...

[Malphegor]

See now I'm imagining a spellbook full of crude pictograms and short words and hash marks instead of numbers.:smallbiggrin:

In this instance, I'd actually say taking the geometer prestige class could be funny if one could qualify for it. It's not for efficiency like regular geometers though, it's literally how they perceive spells, as abstract shapes!

[Andor13]

With an Int of 3, they have a Raven familiar. The Raven is the one that casts the spells.

Someone actually made a Witch Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo-fans-united/broken-one-witch-archetype/) for that in Pathfinder.