Hexblade's Curse on non-hexblade attacks?

[samcifer]

So the Hexblade's Curse feature you get at Hexblade lv. 1 doesn't specify what attacks the proficiency bonus damage or increased crit range apply to, so could they be combined with other classes and attacks? I was thinking of using it with:


Druid Wild Shape attacks (like Brown Bear's bite and claw attacks or giant scorpion's claw and sting attacks)

GWM/Polearm Master attacks using Strength (such as a barbarian, fighter or paladin using a heavy and/or polearm weapon)

Monk attacks (both with monk weapons as well as unarmed strikes using martial arts die dmg.)

Spell attacks such as Magic Missile and Scorching Ray (only to the shots that actually hit the cursed foe); as well as AoE spells like Fireball (again only applying the HC extra dmg. to the cursed target and all other targets don't take the extra dmg.)

[leogobsin]

It says "attacks", with no other specifications, it means all attacks. If you're making an attack roll, it counts.

[samcifer]

What about with summoned creatures? Say you summon an Earth Elemental after cursing a target. Is it only the player character themselves who get the benefit, or summoned creatures they roll for as well?

[OzDragon]

What about with summoned creatures? Say you summon an Earth Elemental after cursing a target. Is it only the player character themselves who get the benefit, or summoned creatures they roll for as well?


No it's your attacks. Now if it gets stated that it does include summons I would not allow it when I DM.

[MaxWilson]

It says "attacks", with no other specifications, it means all attacks. If you're making an attack roll, it counts.

And according to Jeremy Crawford, grappling counts too, although I think that is goofy.

[xanderh]

And according to Jeremy Crawford, grappling counts too, although I think that is goofy.
Well, grappling is a "special attack" according to the book, so it's not that weird

[ciarannihill]

And according to Jeremy Crawford, grappling counts too, although I think that is goofy.


Well, grappling is a "special attack" according to the book, so it's not that weird

I think this is one of those things where "rules for what qualifies as an attack" including grappling for certain reasons overlapping with other abilities that trigger off of attacks oddly. Just an odd quirk of intersecting rules that seems rare enough in practice that making a specific exception for it probably doesn't make a ton of sense for the purposes of imagining how it would function in a real situation.
Or, though I doubt it, it may have not even come up during playtesting at all, meaning they didn't realize until print that this odd overlap is a thing, but now that it's in print it's in print.

As with most JC rulings, though, he is giving the RAW situation rather than what he thinks you should do at your table. He seems to maintain that the ruling at your table is the ruling your DM makes, regardless of RAW.

[RSP]

Just to clarify:

“You gain a bonus to damage rolls against the cursed target. The bonus equals your proficiency bonus.

Any attack roll you make against the cursed target is a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20 on the d20.”

So the character gains the increased crit range on any attack, and the +Prof Bonus to any damage roll: including non-attack damage rolls such as Shadows of Moil’s retributive damage.

[samcifer]

Just to clarify:

“You gain a bonus to damage rolls against the cursed target. The bonus equals your proficiency bonus.

Any attack roll you make against the cursed target is a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20 on the d20.”

So the character gains the increased crit range on any attack, and the +Prof Bonus to any damage roll: including non-attack damage rolls such as Shadows of Moil’s retributive damage.

My thinking on summoned creatures is that you control the creature and roll for it, so the cure effects would be applicable because of that.

[ciarannihill]

My thinking on summoned creatures is that you control the creature and roll for it, so the cure effects would be applicable because of that.

The "You" in "you gain a bonus ..." means you the creature, even if you control another creature to attack it's not you doing the damage. You can totally houserule this is you want, but RAW it has to be dealt by you directly.

[RSP]

The "You" in "you gain a bonus ..." means you the creature, even if you control another creature to attack it's not you doing the damage. You can totally houserule this is you want, but RAW it has to be dealt by you directly.

I’d also point out RAW the summoned/conjured creatures are still NPCs and the DM technically should be rolling their damage so it wouldn’t be the Hexblade’s damage roll anyway.

[samcifer]

I’d also point out RAW the summoned/conjured creatures are still NPCs and the DM technically should be rolling their damage so it wouldn’t be the Hexblade’s damage roll anyway.

The way my group (regardless of who's dm-ing) always has the summoned/controlled creatures act on the same turn as the person controlling it and roll the attack rolls as well as calculate dmg.

[ciarannihill]

The way my group (regardless of who's dm-ing) always has the summoned/controlled creatures act on the same turn as the person controlling it and roll the attack rolls as well as calculate dmg.

And that's totally a fine way to run it, but it also means that you're not running things by RAW (which is fine, I repeat, is FINE), but if you're asking whether or not something is "legal" by RAW, you've got your answer, that is not. You can still houserule it at your table and have a great time doing it, but be aware that's what you're doing.

[Mjolnirbear]

Just to clarify:

“You gain a bonus to damage rolls against the cursed target. The bonus equals your proficiency bonus.

Any attack roll you make against the cursed target is a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20 on the d20.”

So the character gains the increased crit range on any attack, and the +Prof Bonus to any damage roll: including non-attack damage rolls such as Shadows of Moil’s retributive damage.

It's a great Boss-killer too.

Hex and Hexblade Curse means that when you attack the target (with, say, Eldritch Blast) you give curse damage for the blast and curse damage for the hex. Add, say, Elemental Weapon (someone would need to cast it for you) and that's triple proficiency.

It's better than Sharpshooter. There's no minus to attack. It works with all damage rolls, not just weapon attacks like Hex or Duelling (though you need an attack to trigger Hex). There's no feat investment.

But it takes forever to set up, and concentration imposes limits. You also effectively lose the heal if you save it for the boss, because most people rest after a boss fight. That healing can make earlier fights so much easier.

I built a curser for my current game. Maddening Hex and two curses at a time mean two mini-AoEs for a simple bonus action. So I can spread the pain around or pile it on. I really like the Hexblade.

I really don't like the spell list. I don't need smites. I'm not a paladin, and can take an invocation. What I want is more curses. Fortunately a themed spell list with de buffs that can convincingly be described as curses is not hard to do.

[BoxANT]

i think it is amusing that the hexblade really should be called the hexhexeldritchblast

i mean, who doesn't like being able to do 80 damage a turn with knock back

[Kadesh]

It's a great Boss-killer too.

Hex and Hexblade Curse means that when you attack the target (with, say, Eldritch Blast) you give curse damage for the blast and curse damage for the hex. Add, say, Elemental Weapon (someone would need to cast it for you) and that's triple proficiency.

It's better than Sharpshooter. There's no minus to attack. It works with all damage rolls, not just weapon attacks like Hex or Duelling (though you need an attack to trigger Hex). There's no feat investment.

But it takes forever to set up, and concentration imposes limits. You also effectively lose the heal if you save it for the boss, because most people rest after a boss fight. That healing can make earlier fights so much easier.

I built a curser for my current game. Maddening Hex and two curses at a time mean two mini-AoEs for a simple bonus action. So I can spread the pain around or pile it on. I really like the Hexblade.

I really don't like the spell list. I don't need smites. I'm not a paladin, and can take an invocation. What I want is more curses. Fortunately a themed spell list with de buffs that can convincingly be described as curses is not hard to do.

This is incredibly incorrect.

You only roll damage once per attack. Extra damage to an attack is jist that, or else you end up with cases of Hexblade Curse adds Hexblade Curse adds Hexblade Curse ad infinitum.

[samcifer]

This is incredibly incorrect.

You only roll damage once per attack. Extra damage to an attack is jist that, or else you end up with cases of Hexblade Curse adds Hexblade Curse adds Hexblade Curse ad infinitum.

Agreed. For example: at lv. 10 with Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast, Hexblade's Curse already active on the target and Hex cast on them as well, you'll be doing 1d10 + CHA mod + Prof. bonus + 1d6. With maxed out Charisma, that'd average out to 14 force damage + 3 necrotic dmg. per hit.

[samcifer]

Ultimately, I'd say the best way to do a lot of damage is to upcast Conjure Animals to lv. 5 to summon 16 Wolves (each has advantage due to pack tactics and does an average of 7 dmg. per hit) and transform into an Earth or Air Elemental (for 2 attacks that do an average of 14 dmg. per hit). That'd be 140 dmg. per turn on average as long as the wolves survive and I don't lose concentration (16 CON with proficiency due to Resilient CON feat).

[ciarannihill]

Agreed. For example: at lv. 10 with Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast, Hexblade's Curse already active on the target and Hex cast on them as well, you'll be doing 1d10 + CHA mod + Prof. bonus + 1d6. With maxed out Charisma, that'd average out to 14 force damage + 3 necrotic dmg. per hit.

So this is actually also wrong...First of all Eldritch Blast scales with level, so it does 2 attacks, each of which has Cha and Prof added to it (and each can crit), plus each hit triggers Hex. The important thing, though, is that Hex does not trigger Hexblade's curse like Mjolnirbear suggested. So you're actually looking at 2d10+2d6+22 (40 avg) damage not factoring in crits.


EDIT: Made an error with prof bonus, had other stuff on my mind and forgot to adjust my brain to level 10 properly. Should be +18 instead of +22.

[samcifer]

So this is actually also wrong...First of all Eldritch Blast scales with level, so it does 2 attacks, each of which has Cha and Prof added to it (and each can crit), plus each hit triggers Hex. The important thing, though, is that Hex does not trigger Hexblade's curse like Mjolnirbear suggested. So you're actually looking at 2d10+2d6+22 (40 avg) damage not factoring in crits.

I said "per hit" in regards to my calculation. I don't see how it's wrong. 2 EBs with HC + Hex would be 2d10 + CHA x2 + Prof. bonus x2 + 2d6. The HC prof. bonus damage only triggers once per hit and Hex damage adds to the total damage. It's not 1d10 + CHA + HC + Hex + HC again per hit from each shot from EB. HC's prof. bonus damage is only triggered once per attack regardless of how many effects go off as a part of the attack hitting.

[Arvin Natsuko]

So this is actually also wrong...First of all Eldritch Blast scales with level, so it does 2 attacks, each of which has Cha and Prof added to it (and each can crit), plus each hit triggers Hex. The important thing, though, is that Hex does not trigger Hexblade's curse like Mjolnirbear suggested. So you're actually looking at 2d10+2d6+22 (40 avg) damage not factoring in crits.

I don't understand how did you get "+22".

1d10 (base EB) + 1d6 (hex) + 5 (max out cha) + 4 (level 10 prof bonus) = 1d10+1d6+9

2 EBs (level 10) = 2d10 + 2d6 + 18

Missing something?

[samcifer]

I don't understand how did you get "+22".

1d10 (base EB) + 1d6 (hex) + 5 (max out cha) + 4 (level 10 prof bonus) = 1d10+1d6+9

2 EBs (level 10) = 2d10 + 2d6 + 18

Missing something?

Yeah, that one had me confused as well.

[Mjolnirbear]

Why not?

The wording says you "gain a bonus to damage rolls against the cursed target."

You don't get a bonus for Curse, that doesn't roll damage. You don't get a bonus for GWM, that's a flat bonus. But you roll damage for your attack, and you roll damage for your hex. Two separate damage rolls. Two separate damage types, even. I get that most people roll hex and weapon damage at the same time for convenience, but they are two separate sources of damage. Logic says it triggers for both.

At least two have disagreed, but none have offered evidence against it. I'd like to see that evidence before I go apologise to my DM.

[ciarannihill]

I said "per hit" in regards to my calculation. I don't see how it's wrong. 2 EBs with HC + Hex would be 2d10 + CHA x2 + Prof. bonus x2 + 2d6. The HC prof. bonus damage only triggers once per hit and Hex damage adds to the total damage. It's not 1d10 + CHA + HC + Hex + HC again per hit from each shot from EB.

This is what I was referring to:

For example: at lv. 10 with Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast, Hexblade's Curse already active on the target and Hex cast on them as well, you'll be doing 1d10 + CHA mod + Prof. bonus + 1d6.
This sentence doesn't account for the EB scaling. You may have added it in as an addendum at the end of your post, but it wasn't in the actual calculation.

For what it's worth I also made an error, using the incorrect Prof bonus in mine, which I'm gonna leave as is because whoops. Should be +4 prof, my listing had it as +6, so it's going to average 36 damage, not 40. :(

[samcifer]

I suppose it would be up to the descression of the DM when this comes up. I, personally, would say that all damage is rolled at the same time, so HC damage would only be applicable once per attack (even though as a pc, I'd wish it was otherwise).

[Arvin Natsuko]

Why not?

The wording says you "gain a bonus to damage rolls against the cursed target."

You don't get a bonus for Curse, that doesn't roll damage. You don't get a bonus for GWM, that's a flat bonus. But you roll damage for your attack, and you roll damage for your hex. Two separate damage rolls. Two separate damage types, even. I get that most people roll hex and weapon damage at the same time for convenience, but they are two separate sources of damage. Logic says it triggers for both.

At least two have disagreed, but none have offered evidence against it. I'd like to see that evidence before I go apologise to my DM.

In the "Damage Rolls" section in the PHB (p. 196), it defines what is a, well, damage roll, add any modifiers and it can have one or more die. Per the Hex spell you deal "an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit with an attack". It's extra damage, not another damage roll. It's part of the same one damage roll for the attack.

[Kadesh]

Why not?

The wording says you "gain a bonus to damage rolls against the cursed target."

You don't get a bonus for Curse, that doesn't roll damage. You don't get a bonus for GWM, that's a flat bonus. But you roll damage for your attack, and you roll damage for your hex. Two separate damage rolls. Two separate damage types, even. I get that most people roll hex and weapon damage at the same time for convenience, but they are two separate sources of damage. Logic says it triggers for both.

At least two have disagreed, but none have offered evidence against it. I'd like to see that evidence before I go apologise to my DM.

You are correct. You only make a single damage roll. Hex is not an additional damage roll.

[RSP]

In the "Damage Rolls" section in the PHB (p. 196), it defines what is a, well, damage roll, add any modifiers and it can have one or more die. Per the Hex spell you deal "an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit with an attack". It's extra damage, not another damage roll. It's part of the same one damage roll for the attack.

Just to follow up and clarify:

“Each weapon, spell, and harmful monster ability specifies the damage it deals. You roll the damage die or dice, add any modifiers, and apply the damage to your target. Magic weapons, special abilities, and other factors can grant a bonus to damage.”

This pretty much sums up the rule. Hex would be either a “special ability” or an ”other factor.” It adds to the damage roll; it doesn’t create a new one.

Note: poisons and other effects that require a separate roll (like a poison’s constitution saving throw) could well be a second damage roll and would get its own instance of +Prof Mod damage, depending on the wording.

[Mjolnirbear]

Hmm.

It's a good point, but I'm not convinced entirely that roll for damage and damage roll mean the same thing (a ton of D&D relies on nitpicky things like this). And it's such a niche case, because as far as I know, there are no circumstances where this matters until Hexblade. Your point also would seem to contradict errata that says the GWF fighting style only works on weapon damage and not, say, sneak attack dice.

If one of you kind folks could ask the devs, I'd appreciate it. You've given a thought-inducing answer so I'll mention it to my DM, but I'd still love a definitive answer and I don't have twitter.

[Asmotherion]

As long as the target receives a succesful attack roll from the caster it will trigger. No limitations on how many times per turn. No limitations on what kind of attack roll. Simple as that.

The mechanics behind it are simple and clear. It's people that make D&D more complicated than necessary really by trying to find cavets and unessesary limitations, when there already are enough.

[Kadesh]

Hmm.

It's a good point, but I'm not convinced entirely that roll for damage and damage roll mean the same thing (a ton of D&D relies on nitpicky things like this). And it's such a niche case, because as far as I know, there are no circumstances where this matters until Hexblade. Your point also would seem to contradict errata that says the GWF fighting style only works on weapon damage and not, say, sneak attack dice.

If one of you kind folks could ask the devs, I'd appreciate it. You've given a thought-inducing answer so I'll mention it to my DM, but I'd still love a definitive answer and I don't have twitter.

You don't get to make up rules, then ask for rules sources to disprove them. YOU put the effort into proving your side of the story, where a damage roll means every damage die.

The rules are clear. You hit a creature and you make an make a damage roll.

'Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target when you hit it with an attack'

Real simple. If it added to every dice rolled as part of the damage roll, it would have said that.

That is the definitive answer. A Greatsword doesn't do +Prof twice because it is 2d6 compared to a Greataxes 1d12.

[MrStabby]

Just to clarify:

“You gain a bonus to damage rolls against the cursed target. The bonus equals your proficiency bonus.

Any attack roll you make against the cursed target is a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20 on the d20.”

So the character gains the increased crit range on any attack, and the +Prof Bonus to any damage roll: including non-attack damage rolls such as Shadows of Moil’s retributive damage.

Huh. I hadn't thought of that before. I had just assumed it was any attack roll not any damage roll.

So... spike growth. If someone runs through that is it a separate roll for every 5ft moved? If I repelling blast someone through it is the movement a separate damage roll? If someone drags someone repeatedly in and out of the spike growth can they force multiple damage rolls on the same turn?

Not needing an attack roll also brings magic missile into play - something I had not previously considered. I had been contemplating an arcana cleric/warlock and this could be brutal at low levels for high levels of automatically hitting damage. It even scales pretty well given no save or roll to hit.

[RSP]

Huh. I hadn't thought of that before. I had just assumed it was any attack roll not any damage roll.

So... spike growth. If someone runs through that is it a separate roll for every 5ft moved? If I repelling blast someone through it is the movement a separate damage roll? If someone drags someone repeatedly in and out of the spike growth can they force multiple damage rolls on the same turn?

Not needing an attack roll also brings magic missile into play - something I had not previously considered. I had been contemplating an arcana cleric/warlock and this could be brutal at low levels for high levels of automatically hitting damage. It even scales pretty well given no save or roll to hit.

Just a note on Spike Growth: it depends on whether the Hexblade is the one who cast Spike Growth. If so, it’s probably their damage roll and every 5’ of movement includes the +Prof Mod in the damage roll. If not, it’s not their damage roll and as such it wouldn’t +Prof damage.

It’s a very interesting (and powerful) wording that I think is unique in 5e, so there’s probably some multiclass options that benefit from it better than others, like Spike Growth.

[Lunali]

On the upside, because it is a single damage roll, when you crit with eldrich blast, which you will do more often with hexblade's curse, you also get to double the damage dice from hex.

[samcifer]

Okay, so I asked about this on Zoltaire;s Sage Advice on Twitter and got some answers:

https://twitter.com/argouru/status/1038441571585351683

[Mjolnirbear]

You don't get to make up rules, then ask for rules sources to disprove them. YOU put the effort into proving your side of the story, where a damage roll means every damage die.

The rules are clear. You hit a creature and you make an make a damage roll.

'Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target when you hit it with an attack'

Real simple. If it added to every dice rolled as part of the damage roll, it would have said that.

That is the definitive answer. A Greatsword doesn't do +Prof twice because it is 2d6 compared to a Greataxes 1d12.

Uh, wow. You're being a real ****. Do you do this to everyone who politely asks for clarification?

Also, MrD, I never, at any point, even implied you get Hexblade Curse on every die. My DM ruled that you get it for each source of damage you roll for. Which is how I expressed it. A greatsword's 2d6 is still one source of damage. You have completely misunderstood my intentions, my *polite* request, and the question I posed. Where do you get off talking like you do, when you didn't understand a single thing I was saying? Where do you get off talking like that when there was literally not a single word implying rudeness?

To be clear, I asked for a rules source to bring to my DM, something that is a nerf to my character, which I have already done. The rules that were quoted to me were enough to bring to him. It didn't completely convince me but it was good enough evidence to mention to my DM.

I asked for the twitter thing both because I don't have twitter, which I mentioned, and which I asked for, again, *very politely* and because I was curious at the logic for it.

Everyone else was able to speak with politeness. Why are you incapable? Have you failed to learn how to offer a dissenting opinion with considerate words?

[Kadesh]

Apologies.

The point still stands though. You might not have twitter but I'm not going to spend time to prove you wrong. Prove your rather frankly absurd position correct.

[Mjolnirbear]

You don't get to make up rules, then ask for rules sources to disprove them. YOU put the effort into proving your side of the story, where a damage roll means every damage die.

Also... you're telling me to prove something doesn't exist. It is scientifically impossible to prove something doesn't exist. Just FYI.

[Kadesh]

Also... you're telling me to prove something doesn't exist. It is scientifically impossible to prove something doesn't exist. Just FYI.

No. I'm telling you to read the rules.

[Mjolnirbear]

Apologies.

The point still stands though. You might not have twitter but I'm not going to spend time to prove you wrong. Prove your rather frankly absurd position correct.

'Apologies', but then 'frankly absurd'? Do you understand what polite discourse is?

I explained my logic several times. Difference sources of damage, thus different damage rolls. Not since my first post have I asserted that this is actually how it works. Because I don't know. And in the case of uncertainty, the rule is "ask your DM". Which I did when it first came up and he gave the ruling I told everyone, and again after someone kindly provided the PHB rule on "damage roll". Which I have mentioned, again, several times.

I'm no longer asking for anyone to 'prove me wrong' and nothing about my posts implied that. The question is now academic. I'm now curious what the devs' reasoning would be, because my DM has already made the ruling. I asked my favour in the spirit of curiosity.

If you are not curious, then I wasn't asking you. There was literally no need to come out swinging like I asked to diddle your husband/wife or something.

You're being very offensive, with no reason to do so. May I suggest you take a deep breath, calm down, and then forget this thread exists, because it is apparently not something your interested in, except to take offence.

[Kadesh]

Edit; ye, you know what. Apologies. Rules are rules, but if by playing it the way you do, you have fun, so be it. :)

[Millface]

This makes an even more solid case for Hexblade/Sorcerer MCs.

Curse the target, lay down some kind of damaging environmental effect, like wall of fire or cast fire shield on yourself.

Warlock 3/Sorcerer 8 Could do both of those things.

You roll damage for quickened EB, you roll damage for Scorching Ray or some other damage spell or melee attack if you choose that, you roll damage when you get hit and have fire shield up, you roll damage when you get hit and cast hellish rebuke as a reaction...

If your cursed target is fighting you that's significant damage. 2d10+2d6+2xProf+2xCHA on the EB, 2d8+Prof on the FS if you get hit +1d10+Prof if you rebuke, 6d6+Prof on Scorching ray.

So if you get hit, and here you'd want to, 3d10+8d6+2d8+10+20 if you cast everything at base level. It takes a 4th level slot to start and a 1st level slot/round at the very least, but it can make for an interesting Gish Tank. I've always liked builds that dare you to hit them. If you can fit it later in the build Sentinel and Warcaster is gold here. It attacks you and takes 2d6+1d10+2xProf or attacks an ally and takes Weapon Damage +Prof.

I need to head down to the lab and flesh this out a bit more...