[3.5] CR 9 Threats

[Thurbane]

So, just curious: what out-of-the-box CR 9 monsters would you consider the most challenging for your average ECL 9 party of four?

By out-of-the-box, I mean straight CR 9 monsters: no templates, advancing by HD, class levels or whatever. I know "Human Wizard 9" is a strong challenge, but specifically not what I'm looking for.

Cheers - T

[Temotei]

Are you looking for monsters that have an assigned CR of 9 that are well beyond that in difficulty or monsters that are just difficult CR 9 encounters?

[Thurbane]

Are you looking for monsters that have an assigned CR of 9 that are well beyond that in difficulty or monsters that are just difficult CR 9 encounters?

Both or either, really.

[Temotei]

Whisper demons (Monster Manual IV) can be pretty difficult if your party has low Will saves (even if they have decent saves there's still a decent chance they'll lose actions). It's decently tough (90 hp, 20 AC, incorporeal), looks like undead so the party might waste resources if they don't know what exactly it is, and they have Flyby Attack with a perfect fly speed. They also tend to fly around with allips under their command, which obviously would make the encounter quite a bit harder without raising the as-written EL too much.

[PunBlake]

This is the sort of question that kinda depends on party build. Some parties are better at killing certain things than others (Favored Enemy, Smite, Turning, ect).

That said...
Young Adult Black or White Dragon (MM1)
One (Huge) Greater Elemental or Para-Elemental in an appropriate environment (MM1, MotP)
Malebranche (Baatezu) (MM2)... or other demons/devils. One or two Erinyes (CR 8, MM1) are mean.

[Mike Miller]

I believe the easy answer is any dragon with a CR 9. What is the party makeup?

[Thurbane]

This is the sort of question that kinda depends on party build. Some parties are better at killing certain things than others (Favored Enemy, Smite, Turning, ect).


What is the party makeup?

Not really looking to tailor this to a specific party.

...lets say Fighter, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric.

[Mike Miller]

Well the MMII has the Adamantine Clockwork Horror. That will ruin a party's day.

Also in MMII, Vaporighu

[Thurbane]

Well the MMII has the Adamantine Clockwork Horror. That will ruin a party's day.

Also in MMII, Vaporighu

Ah yes, MM2, aka The Big Book of Broken Challenge Ratings :smalltongue:

[Mike Miller]

Ah yes, MM2, aka The Big Book of Broken Challenge Ratings :smalltongue:

Indeed... You asked for a challenge! =D

[Mike Miller]

Maybe not what you want but I did make this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?567442-The-NPCs-that-no-one-asked-for!) Specifically look at the ambush Drake with 7 levels of cleric all statted out, minus spells. It uses non associated levels so it works out to cr 9 and no one will see it coming... because it is an Ambush Drake!

[PunBlake]

I love ambush drakes. Currently running an encounter with one Draconic Erinyes and two Half-Fiend Ambush Drakes because my group asked me for a hard fight. But you said no templates.

Could always run a pack of four unmodified ambush drakes. :smalltongue:

[Mike Miller]

As for notable dragons, the Brainstealer Dragon from Dragon Magazine 337 is a CR 9 at Young age and one of the most challenging dragons. Also, the purple dragon from dragon compendium is cr 10 at juvenile and pretty difficult. Greyhawk Dragon from Dragon 339 is cr 8 at juvenile and cr 10 at young adult.

MMIII has the Roper, Prismatic which is interesting (although maybe not all that challenging) and also the Arcane Ooze which could be difficult if the arcane casters take on a primary role in combat.

[flappeercraft]

An Intelligently played Mind Flayer can be a very good encounter for a level 9 party even though its only CR 8. I've seen a Mindflayer TPK a level 10 party before on its own with just good use of skirmishes consisting of Mind Blasting and using Plane Shift on the stunned opponents to teleport them to the positive energy plane and then fleeing while the others are still stunned.

[Thurbane]

One I became aware of recently seems to fit: Essence Reaver (SoS p.147).

18HD Aberration with some interesting anti-magic abilities and wounds that resist healing.

[ShurikVch]

There are some (probably) more or less notable things:

Copper Juggernaut (Dungeon #115): Large 13 HD Construct charger (looks kinda like Warforged, but isn't a Living Construct); Enhanced Charge gives it +4 on attack, +2d6 on damage, and speed 40; Armor Spikes - 1d8+7 on grapple or bull rush; DR 10/adamantine, fast healing 2, and SR 19; armed with "+1 flaming burst oversized gauntlet"

Voor, Dreadful Lasher (Monster Manual IV): Huge 15 HD Outsider (yugoloth), scentless and with Rend (2d8+16), Str 32 and Con 21

Slake Moth (Dragon #352): Large 13 HD Aberration, whoever looks at it's wings should make a Will save or be paralyzed for 1d4 rounds; on a critical hit, initiates 1d3 Wis and Cha drain per round; induces nightmares in 1/2 mile radius, which will cause fatigue (and, eventually, exhaustion) for sleeping creatures

Wild Hunter (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070601a): 20 HD and SR 20 at CR 9?

Cyborgs (Return to the Temple of the Frog): those 8 HD Living Constructs may not look that impressive at the first glance, but - even if we're ignoring the fact they're armed with blasters and grenades - they also got the Last Laugh: 10d6 points of force damage in 30' radius (at CR 9!)

Demonic Troll (Dangerous Denizens): that Large 10 HD Giant is able to produce 1/day CL 13 Blasphemy (at CR 9!) - thus, no-save Paralyzed, weakened, and dazed

Vaporighu (Monster Manual II): that 10 HD Medium-sized Outsider not just have access to at-will fly, produce flame, and animate objects, but also to 1/day Summon Monster VII: Night Hag (which is CR 9 by itself!)

Elder Psurlon (Monster Manual II): this 12 HD Medium-sized Aberration able to use mass suggestion, hold monster, and dominate person at will

Rimefire Eidolon (Frostburn): as long as combat isn't farther than 300' from it's iceberg, that 12 HD Fey may be kinda challenging

Young Adult Phaerimm - SLAs as 7th-level Sorcerer

Murderjack (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040828a)

Creator Race (Dragon #303): that 8 HD Monstrous Humanoid is protected by constant Mage Armor, can unable protection which is a combination of Fire Shield and Death Ward; shoot rays which are inflict 3d6 fire or cold damage, or 1d8 Str damage, casts as 8th-level Sorcerer, and can - at the cost of temporarily dropping the Mage Armor and FS/DW - either Empower for free any spell of Necromancy school or with [fire] or [cold] subtype, or maximize damage of the ray

Queen (Dragon #358): that 12 HD Medium-sized Construct casts spells as 9th-level Sorcerer; also, able to Plane Shift 1/day, and Dominate as a standard action; besides that, have Pounce, Skirmish (3d6), and able to move diagonally without the speed reduction (even around a corner); when moving at straight line, she can go through any sort of terrain without being slowed by it, taking terrain-related damage, or any other impairment; no AC penalty on charge, can always take 10 at Jump and Tumble, and under the continuous undispellable Freedom of Movement

[Nifft]

Wild Hunter (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070601a): 20 HD and SR 20 at CR 9?

SR 20 seems well-tuned for CR 9, since a level 9 caster with no special attention to raising CL nor penetrating SR will roll from 10 to 29, average 19.5 -- with any special attention, the SR will be less than 50% effective.

Is there another problem that you see?

[emeraldstreak]

Two Arrow Demons in a sparsely forested plain, actually making full use of their range, stealth, and dimension door.

[RoboEmperor]

10 headed Hydra

[Temotei]

SR 20 seems well-tuned for CR 9, since a level 9 caster with no special attention to raising CL nor penetrating SR will roll from 10 to 29, average 19.5 -- with any special attention, the SR will be less than 50% effective.

Is there another problem that you see?

Plus, enemies often show up at lower CR than average party level with other monsters so they're not just ganged up on.

[Thurbane]

Wild Hunter (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070601a): 20 HD and SR 20 at CR 9?

This is a creature I has completely missed in EttDP. I like how the web article expands on their ecology.

Definitely going to use one of these as an encounter at some point.