Ranger's Feral Senses

[Laolir]

Hello everyone, I would like some insight on the 18th lvl capacity of the ranger, Feral Senses, especially the second point:

"You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened."

First, I thought that if a creature isn't hidden, you always know his location because it makes sound (if you are close enough to hear it of course). Isn't that the case? Do you have to guess the location of an invisible non hidden creature within hearing range?

Second, why wouldn't it work if your are blinded? You don't rely on sight to locate an invisible creature do you?

(Sorry for my English, I'm not a native speaker, if you don't understand something, feel free to ask)

[JDanton]

Hello everyone, I would like some insight on the 18th lvl capacity of the ranger, Feral Senses, especially the second point:

"You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened."

First, I thought that if a creature isn't hidden, you always know his location because it makes sound (if you are close enough to hear it of course). Isn't that the case? Do you have to guess the location of an invisible non hidden creature within hearing range?

Second, why wouldn't it work if your are blinded? You don't rely on sight to locate an invisible creature do you?

(Sorry for my English, I'm not a native speaker, if you don't understand something, feel free to ask)

The invisibility status states "An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense.", feral senses is the equivalent of special senses so this implies that you can see through invisibility and use sound to keep track of it even when not looking in its direction, however this only applies if the creature isn't hidden since it isn't making any effort to conceal its presence. If a creature is hidden successfully, you can assume that it is not making any noise and is hidden behind a solid object, its invisibility may be redundant but it can still hide from you. Think of it this way, feral sense passively allows you to see through invisibility so you just treat the creature as not being invisible, it can still take the hide action at which point you have to actively make a perception check to find them. As for being blinded, this implies that you do in fact see through the invisibility, you just can't see through solid cover or anything the creature might be hiding behind. Hope this clears it up.

[Vogie]

Hello everyone, I would like some insight on the 18th lvl capacity of the ranger, Feral Senses, especially the second point:

"You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened."

First, I thought that if a creature isn't hidden, you always know his location because it makes sound (if you are close enough to hear it of course). Isn't that the case? Do you have to guess the location of an invisible non hidden creature within hearing range?

Second, why wouldn't it work if your are blinded? You don't rely on sight to locate an invisible creature do you?


Hidden in 5e usually is in-reference to the actual Hide action which gives the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" bonuses.

This is further clarified in the PHB:


If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.

What this feature does is allow you to perceive the presence of an invisible creature using your 'feral' senses - sensing their footfalls, how they disturb the ground and other things around them. The feature doesn't give you "tremorsense", "Blindsight", or "true sight", it's just a heightening of your normal senses so the invisibility ability specifically is less valuable.

[Derpaligtr]

Short version.

Being unseen =/= being hidden.
Being unheard =/= being hidden.
Being unseen and unheard = hidden

Being hidden = taking the hide action
Taking the hide action = being unseen and unheard

Now, out of combat things can get wonky and its up to the DM to determine things.

[Laolir]

I'm sorry, it looks like my question wasn't clear enough.

Feral senses doesn't let you ignore the invisible condition because the creature is still considered heavily obscured for the purpose of hiding and has advantage when attacking you. Unless I missed something, which is entirely possible, it looks like feral senses only remove the disadvantage for attacking an unseen creature and nothing else about the invisible condition(the first paragraph of Feral senses).

The second paragraph, which is in my first post seems to do absolutely nothing because locating an invisible non hidden creature seems to be automatic because for what I know about the rules, the location of an invisible creature who isn't hidden (hasn't taken the Hide Action) is always known because the creature can be heard (The invisible condition specify than the location of an invisible creature can be known by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves).

So what is the purpose of the second paragraph of Feral Senses? You just have a better radius within which you locate the creature (30 feet is higher than hearing range?) Or am I wrongly assuming than the location of invisible creature is known unless they are hidden?

Hope it's clearer, I don't think I have a problem understanding the difference between hidden and invisible, but maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks for your answers.

[Xetheral]

(The invisible condition specify than the location of an invisible creature can be known by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves).

The exact text is: "The creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves." This is one of the single most-controversial rules in 5e. Some people interpret the word "can" as implying certainty, as in the phrase "I can see you." In this case non-hidden, invisible creatures are automatically detected, and that portion of Feral Senses is indeed useless.

Other people interpret "can" as implying possibility, as in the phrase "that can be done". In this case, non-hidden invisible creatures may or may not be detected (exact resolution method up to the DM) except for Rangers with Feral Senses who automatically detect such creatures within 30'. (Even in this case, Feral Senses might be practically useless if the DM's chosen resolution method makes it easy to detect such creatures within 30' anyway.)

[Derpaligtr]

The exact text is: "The creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves." This is one of the single most-controversial rules in 5e. Some people interpret the word "can" as implying certainty, as in the phrase "I can see you." In this case non-hidden, invisible creatures are automatically detected, and that portion of Feral Senses is indeed useless.

Other people interpret "can" as implying possibility, as in the phrase "that can be done". In this case, non-hidden invisible creatures may or may not be detected (exact resolution method up to the DM) except for Rangers with Feral Senses who automatically detect such creatures within 30'. (Even in this case, Feral Senses might be practically useless if the DM's chosen resolution method makes it easy to detect such creatures within 30' anyway.)

For me, I fall back on the ideology of 5e.

Which one is simpler?

Unless an invisible creature takes the hide action, players can hear the creature or see the grass/dirt/rock around the creature move, thus giving the creature away. You **must** take the hide action to be hidden.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sageadvice.eu/2016/01/20/does-invisibility-spell-auto-hide-you/amp/

Seems like the intent is that you aren't auto-hidden.

[guachi]

"Can see" does not mean "is seeing".

Even the example "I can see you" doesn't mean you actually are looking at them right now or have absolute certainty that you are looking at them.

There is no definition of "can" used as an auxiliary verb that means "is".

1. to be able to; have the ability, power, or skill to

2. to know how to

3. to have the power or means to

4. to have the right or qualifications to

5. may; have permission to

6. to have the possibility

The above are all six definitions of the word at dictionary.com. None give 100% certainty that you actually are doing a thing as opposed to having 100% certainty you have the ability to do a thing.

[Derpaligtr]

"Can see" does not mean "is seeing".

Even the example "I can see you" doesn't mean you actually are looking at them right now or have absolute certainty that you are looking at them.

There is no definition of "can" used as an auxiliary verb that means "is".

1. to be able to; have the ability, power, or skill to

2. to know how to

3. to have the power or means to

4. to have the right or qualifications to

5. may; have permission to

6. to have the possibility

The above are all six definitions of the word at dictionary.com. None give 100% certainty that you actually are doing a thing as opposed to having 100% certainty you have the ability to do a thing.

1: you're over complicating, counter to 5e's design.

2: JC (rules dude) said you can target an invisible creature because you can hear them and target them based on hearing.

Simplicity + JC = Must use the hide action to be hidden.

[Xetheral]

The exact text is: "The creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves." This is one of the single most-controversial rules in 5e.

I offer the intervening posts as evidence to support my claim, quoted above.