Beguiler vs Undead

[Allanimal]

A player in the E6 game I am DMing got a bit frustrated when her 3rd level whisper gnome beguiler PC turned out to be relatively ineffective against some zombies recently.

She has acquired a bit of gold and was hoping to pick up a magic item that would let her deal with creatures immune to enchantment and many illusion spells. I suggested a 1st level eternal wand of a damage-dealing spell not on the beguiler list, since any arcane caster can use any eternal wand, but surely there is something better.

I’m wondering what the playground can come up with. We’re not super high op, and she has a bit more than 2200 gp to spend, IIRC.
I’d like to keep it within the core, completes, Races of, MiC, SpC, PHB2 set of books, but willing to consider any non-setting-specific books as well.
Thanks!

[sleepyphoenixx]

Eternal wands of damaging spells are almost universally useless because they only come with minimum CL and save DC. You may as well shoot a crossbow instead of wasting money on one.

If she has UMD i'd suggest a Runestaff instead so she can use her own CL and Int-mod.
If she doesn't have UMD the best option is probably some of the pieces of the Raiment of the Four set (MIC), particularly the Gloves of the Starry Sky (Magic Missile) or if she's content to wait a bit the Goggles of the Golden Sun (Fireball).

[Zaq]

3rd level, huh? That’s tough. Once she gets second level spells she’d have Glitterdust, which always helps, and once she has third level spells she’d have Haste/Slow, which contribute a ton. (I am, admittedly, going from memory, but I’m PRETTY sure Beguilers get Haste and Slow. Hope I’m not totally wrong there.) But yeah, with only first level spells available, that’s not a great spot to be in.

There’s always the “fun” argument to be had about how figment spells affect mindless critters, but maybe it’s best to leave that can of worms sealed as long as possible. And I suppose there are enough non-mindless undead even in the CR 3 range that we can’t rely on that entirely.

Crossbows have been mentioned. It’s not great to be stuck with a crossbow if you’re not trying to play a crossbow-user, but it might be the least bad option at ECL 3.

Of course, if you’re the GM, you could start reevaluating whether you WANT giant swathes or common enemies to have “screw your class” immunities to most of a PC’s abilities. Maybe you should make a houserule that undead aren’t all immune to mind-affecting stuff as a general rule. In E6, undead being immune to mind-affecting effects isn’t necessarily a primary balance point, and having them not all automatically hard-nope a PC’s main shtick could make the game more fun. (Same with their stupid precision damage immunity. They might not use kidneys the same way living things do, but most corporeal undead still have, like, joints and stuff that they don’t want you smashing. I don’t like having to balance “can’t use this common and iconic enemy type without screwing a player” and “sorry Mr. Rogue, you don’t get to play with any of your main toys today,” so in my mind, that sort of change improves fun. Your mileage may vary.)

[DarkOne-Rob]

May I suggest considering a feat that allows something like the Undead Bloodline of Pathfinder's Sorcerers? It would open up all sorts of new options that would be very interesting for a Beguiler...

[Allanimal]

Thanks for the responses so far.


Eternal wands of damaging spells are almost universally useless because they only come with minimum CL and save DC. You may as well shoot a crossbow instead of wasting money on one.

Are there any damaging spells that don't rely on DCs? Launch Bolt and splinter bolt come to mind. Launch bolt is lvl 0 and splintrbolt is druid only. Anything similar but level 1 and Arcane? What about BFC spells? Would Grease, for example, be worth it?


If she has UMD i'd suggest a Runestaff instead so she can use her own CL and Int-mod.
If she doesn't have UMD the best option is probably some of the pieces of the Raiment of the Four set (MIC), particularly the Gloves of the Starry Sky (Magic Missile) or if she's content to wait a bit the Goggles of the Golden Sun (Fireball).

She wasn't putting ranks into UMD, but will probably retrain it when she goes to 4th (I let them make some free retraining when they level). So for now, that's out, but is a good idea. What's the DC for casting from a runestaff though?

She has put the Gloves of the Starry Sky on the maybe list, but isn't yet sold on it.


3rd level, huh? That’s tough. Once she gets second level spells she’d have Glitterdust, which always helps, and once she has third level spells she’d have Haste/Slow, which contribute a ton. (I am, admittedly, going from memory, but I’m PRETTY sure Beguilers get Haste and Slow. Hope I’m not totally wrong there.) But yeah, with only first level spells available, that’s not a great spot to be in.

They do get haste & slow, but it's a 3rd level spell, so not for a while.


Of course, if you’re the GM, you could start reevaluating whether you WANT giant swathes or common enemies to have “screw your class” immunities to most of a PC’s abilities. Maybe you should make a houserule that undead aren’t all immune to mind-affecting stuff as a general rule.

I'm not wanting to house rule a lot of things like this, so while a valid point, it is off the table for now. I hear your argument, and I will keep it in mind for the future, but I am sensitive to that for this player and others, so I try to plan encounters so that they rarely "screw their class features." In the 2 dozen or so combat encounters since we started the campaign, there has been two with undead, so about one encounter per level, so far (they started at 2nd). Yes, there will be another some day, but not something they will run into all the time.

At third level, the rest of the team are not all equipped to have an awesome weapon to deal with any DR they encounter, for example, so when the skeletons came up, everyone had to switch to a secondary weapon to deal with the DR. The party isn't super martial-heavy, though it sometimes feels that way. Barbarian, Paladin, Druid (who Shelleighlegh's more than he entangles) with a wolf AC, a Bard/Spellthief, and the Beguiler.

UPDATE: Right now she's reading the MiC and getting excited about a few things. Crystal of life draining,(whoops, I mean) true death crystal, boots of stomping (she thinks it would be hilarious for a little gnome to knock a bunch of people over), gauntlets of giant felling (she's a whisper gnome, so they will work often), counterstrike bracers and/or some combo of those... So I think she's leaning towards the "if my spells aren't effective, be a better at melee". Based on how excited she is reading some of these, I hate to try to steer her towards more arcane caster type items. But I would still be open to some thoughts about more arcane caster type items if you have any ideas.

Thanks again for your tips and advice.

EDIT:

May I suggest considering a feat that allows something like the Undead Bloodline of Pathfinder's Sorcerers? It would open up all sorts of new options that would be very interesting for a Beguiler...

I'm not familiar with Pathfinder (don't have any of the books), but the nature of E6 allows for interesting new feats. Where can I find out more about this? Or can you give a quick explanation of what makes it interesting? Thanks!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A level of sand shaper at 6th for desert spells, maybe?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Are there any damaging spells that don't rely on DCs? Launch Bolt and splinter bolt come to mind. Launch bolt is lvl 0 and splintrbolt is druid only. Anything similar but level 1 and Arcane? What about BFC spells? Would Grease, for example, be worth it?
Launch Bolt is exactly as effective as firing a crossbow.
Splinterbolt still relies on CL, so it doesn't make a good wand spell either.
And Grease is reliant both on the save DC and CL for duration - a normal wand of Grease will only last 1 round.

Very few offensive spells are actually useful in wands.
Power Word:Pain is one of those few, but sadly it's mind-affecting and so is useless as a fallback against enemies immune to mind-affecting.
If you insist on a damaging spell the Lesser Orb of Acid (SpC) and its variants are probably your best bet, but they won't do much on their own. Personally i wouldn't say the price is worth it over just using a crossbow.


She wasn't putting ranks into UMD, but will probably retrain it when she goes to 4th (I let them make some free retraining when they level). So for now, that's out, but is a good idea. What's the DC for casting from a runestaff though?
Same as if she had cast the spell normally herself, so 10 + level + Int mod.

[noce]

A level of sand shaper at 6th for desert spells, maybe?

And never be able to cast 3rd level spells? I'd rather go full caster on E6.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

And never be able to cast 3rd level spells? I'd rather go full caster on E6.Ah. I thought they got the good caster progression, not the retarded sorcerer one.

Aren't there a VERY LARGE number of Heritage/Bloodline feats that add spells to your class list? I think a lot of them are Faerun feats. Perfect for E6.

[death390]

don't forget to mention that while most spells are not directly effective most undead are effectively mindless. so using things like silent image creatively can still be useful.

illusionary wall between group and undead means they lose line of sight and thus don't go after the party (or go around the wall). undead generally don't try and break down walls (doors on the other hand). illusionary pit trap works just as well, ect.

[DarkOne-Rob]

I'm not familiar with Pathfinder (don't have any of the books), but the nature of E6 allows for interesting new feats. Where can I find out more about this? Or can you give a quick explanation of what makes it interesting? Thanks!
Google "Pathfinder SRD" for the complete rules online. Google "Undead Bloodline Pathfinder" to get more specific to this question. Google "Pathfinder Arcane Heritage Feat" for something vaguely like a feat that might fit what your player wants.

In Pathfinder you cannot actually get the Bloodline Arcana (which is the best part of the bloodline for your purposes) by way of a feat, but it's your game and E6, so change things you want!

[Crake]

There's an advanced learning alternate class feature in PHB2 called eclectic learning. Admittedly, despite being in the same book as the beguilder, eclectic learning is limited to warmages only, but you could be a permissive DM and allow the beguiler to take it as well, since both classes share advanced learning.

Eclectic learning basically allows the caster to, instead of picking spells from a small subset of schools (so, enchantment and illusion for beguiler), they can pick from ANY school, but the spell's spell level is increased by 1, so it takes up a higher level spell slot for them. Only kicks in later down the line, but it lets the player pick up some "always useful" spells like polymorph, or orb of fire/cold/acid/force, etc etc.

[Eldariel]

Don't forget simple Silent Image. Mindless things don't have the means to tell it apart from reality. The best tool to control them in the Beguiler arsenal, and infinitely versatile.

[Bohandas]

Theoretically you should be able to get a straight-up at-will version of an eternal wand for 5/3 the base price of a standard eternal wand, based on the pricing guidelines for charges per day items

[ShurikVch]

How about to retrain one of feats into Precocious Apprentice?
(IMHO, Claws of Darkness would be thematic for a Beguiler)

Or, maybe, Hidden Talent (Astral Construct)?

[radthemad4]

Some spells possibly worth UMDing


Benign Transposition (Wiz/Sorc 1) (Spell Compendium, p. 27) : Swap the positions of two willing targets in medium range
Enlarge Person (Wiz/Sorc 1)
Lesser Restoration (Pal 1)
Lesser Vigor (Clr/Druid 1) (Spell Compendium, p. 229) : Fast Healing 1 for 11 rounds for out of combat healing
Blinding Spittle (Druid 2) (Spell Compendium, p. 32): Ranged touch attack with a -4 for a no save blind
Mass Snake's Swiftness (Druid 2) (Spell Compendium, p. 193): Allied creatures in a 20 ft burst get a free attack each


A generous reading of the Apprentice ( Dungeon Master's Guide II, p. 176) feat from can grant an additional first level spell known from any list, and the option to swap any one spells known for another of the same spell level with every level gained.

Other stuff to consider for higher levels:

A handy option (that unfortunately has to wait till level 6) is to dip Rainbow Servant (Complete Divine variant, p. 54) at level 6 to add the Good domain to your spell list. Following this up by casting Substitute Domain (Complete Champion) either via UMD or getting it as a spell known via Apprentice or Extra Spell ( Complete Arcane, p. 79) (ignoring the FAQ that restricts Extra Spell to spell list only) to swap out that domain for a different one offered by the worshiped deity (here's a list of published domains (http://ftm3.altervista.org/ASMoNM/domains.html)). This can be recast any time to get the spells known from a different domain.

Song of the Dead ( Dragon Compendium), is a +1 Metamagic that allows enchantment spells to affect intelligent undead, but unfortunately, only intelligent undead. A custom metamagic rod might be worth purchasing if that's an option, but only if you run into intelligent undead somewhat often and you have some amazing enchantment spells.

[ottdmk]

My only suggestion would be to mess with the mindless undead using Silent Image. Figments aren't (as far as I can find) Mind-Affecting, and a Silent Image (which can be moved about through it's effect, which is 7 10' Cubes at L3) would probably make a decent distraction, given that mindless undead would probably never learn to ignore it.

[Doctor Awkward]

A player in the E6 game I am DMing got a bit frustrated when her 3rd level whisper gnome beguiler PC turned out to be relatively ineffective against some zombies recently.

She has acquired a bit of gold and was hoping to pick up a magic item that would let her deal with creatures immune to enchantment and many illusion spells. I suggested a 1st level eternal wand of a damage-dealing spell not on the beguiler list, since any arcane caster can use any eternal wand, but surely there is something better.

I’m wondering what the playground can come up with. We’re not super high op, and she has a bit more than 2200 gp to spend, IIRC.
I’d like to keep it within the core, completes, Races of, MiC, SpC, PHB2 set of books, but willing to consider any non-setting-specific books as well.
Thanks!

Gloves of the Starry Sky was already mentioned. Magic Missile in a Runestaff is your next best best. along with Lesser Orb of Acid or Sound. 5d8/5d6 touch attack no save, no SR.

Alternatively, if it's only mindless undead you have the option of simply ignoring them via UMD and a scroll of Hide from Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideFromUndead.htm). Mindless undead do not get a save, and cannot locate you in any way for the duration.

If you can get that in a Runestaff, you can protect the whole party.

[ottdmk]

As I understand them, Runestaffs don't let you get spells from outside your own spell list... they let you have more spells from your spell list. Making them useless to Beguilers, since they get all the spells on their list anyways.
By expending a prepared arcane spell or arcane spell slot, the wielder can cast a spell of the same level or lower from the runestaff’s list, as long as that spell also appears on the wielder’s class spell list.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Grab a few eternal wands? Regardless of what spell is in them, they work for any arcane spellcaster. You have to use them at base CL, but things there are plenty of low level wizard and bard (and dread necromancer) spells that are very useful against undead.

[Gullintanni]

The spell command undead lasts a day per CL and doesn't allow a save for mindless undead. An eternal wand would allow your beguiler to control a couple of mindless undead indefinitely, such that even if you met undead you couldn't control, you'd have minions you could throw at them.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

As I understand them, Runestaffs don't let you get spells from outside your own spell list... they let you have more spells from your spell list

Beguilers use UMD to emulate being a class with the spell on their list.

I actually don't think specific magic items are needed at this juncture unless you're about to start a thematically zombie filled adventure.

The potential of silent and mage has already been stated, but even if that isn't allowed the Beguiler isn't reduced to a their BAB and equipment.

Mage Armour cast on the right ally could push their AC over a threshold where it becomes a high quality defense and allow them to reliably tank a mob of zombies.

Expeditious Retreat would allow the Beguiler to easily kite even faster undead for it's minute/level duration.