So how long have the Elven Gods, etc. been around?

[MartianInvader]

There are the three major pantheons, and we've just seen that they've been re-making the world for... some time now.

But what about the Gods that were raised up by the mortals, like the Elven Gods, or Dvalin? Were they raised up to Godhood by previous worlds, and have been around for multiple destruction/creation cycles? Or were they just raised up by this, most recent world? Do the Gods that originated on a world get destroyed along with that world when the Snarl escapes?

I'm wondering even more about the Dark One:

According to Redcloak, the Dark One didn't become aware of the Snarl until the rifts appeared in Lirian's forest, right? And presumably he would have known about the Snarl if he had watched it destory a world. So does that mean has he only been around for this most recent world? Does he even know how many worlds came before?

[Rrmcklin]

Until given a reason to suspect otherwise, we should presume they came from this world. It wouldn't matter to the story for any of the others, and a lot of things about the Dark One wouldn't make any sense if he wasn't from this world.

I really don't understand the conclusion "any ascended mortals from a world die along with it".

[Jellyity]

Presumably, Dvalin and the Dark One ascended during this world's timeframe, as otherwise the Crimson Mantle would probably not appear. (How can an artifact be transported from World to World?) The Elven Gods are probably the same, as neither the Dark One or the Elven Gods are affiliated with any Pantheon. If they had been around for more then 1 world, they would have probably created their own pantheon by now.

[zimmerwald1915]

Presumably, Dvalin and the Dark One ascended during this world's timeframe, as otherwise the Crimson Mantle would probably not appear. (How can an artifact be transported from World to World?) The Elven Gods are probably the same, as neither the Dark One or the Elven Gods are affiliated with any Pantheon. If they had been around for more then 1 world, they would have probably created their own pantheon by now.
The Elven Gods are associated with the Western Pantheon.

[MartianInvader]

I really don't understand the conclusion "any ascended mortals from a world die along with it".

The reason I'm asking about this is it seems like one of the following must be true:

1) All (or nearly all) ascended mortals from other worlds have died (for whatever reason).

2) The current world is the only world that has ascended mortals to Godhood, or one of a tiny fraction that has (for whatever reason).

3) There are zillions of ascended-mortal Gods running around that we haven't seen.

If the answer is 2), I suspect we'll learn what's special about this world in the next few pages of comic. But if this world isn't so special, why haven't we seen tons of other Gods, ascended from the other worlds? The most plausible answer to me is 1), and the most plausible reason to me is that these ascended mortals died along with their worlds somehow.

[martianmister]

Dark One is from this world. I think Elven Gods could be from previous worlds and adopted by Western Pantheon, which explains their fortunate location on world map.

[Rrmcklin]

The reason I'm asking about this is it seems like one of the following must be true:

1) All (or nearly all) ascended mortals from other worlds have died (for whatever reason).

2) The current world is the only world that has ascended mortals to Godhood, or one of a tiny fraction that has (for whatever reason).

3) There are zillions of ascended-mortal Gods running around that we haven't seen.

If the answer is 2), I suspect we'll learn what's special about this world in the next few pages of comic. But if this world isn't so special, why haven't we seen tons of other Gods, ascended from the other worlds? The most plausible answer to me is 1), and the most plausible reason to me is that these ascended mortals died along with their worlds somehow.

I think you overestimate how important a detail this actually is, while also underestimating how rare ascending to godhood logically would/should be.

Just because there have been a ton of worlds doesn't logically mean they'd all produce a bunch of new gods. Especially when we have no idea how long they tended to last.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

They don't have to have died immediately with their worlds. If someone ascended to godhood during World #4 and was killed by the Snarl during the destruction of World #1,367 they still wouldn't be around for the current plotline. But given the sheer number of planets destroyed, I'd be surprised at this point if ONLY the Greek/Eastern Pantheon had been destroyed by the Snarl.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think you overestimate how important a detail this actually is, while also underestimating how rare ascending to godhood logically would/should be.

Just because there have been a ton of worlds doesn't logically mean they'd all produce a bunch of new gods. Especially when we have no idea how long they tended to last.

This world alone has: an entire subpantheon of elven ascended gods, a dwarven ascended king god and a goblin ascended warleader god. I do not see where you get that ascending to godhood is rare when we know of at least 5 such cases in this world alone.

Also, "any ascended mortals from a world die along with it" is not a conclusion, it's a hypothesis.

Grey Wolf

[Rrmcklin]

This world alone has: an entire subpantheon of elven ascended gods, a dwarven ascended king god and a goblin ascended warleader god. I do not see where you get that ascending to godhood is rare when we know of at least 5 such cases in this world alone.

Also, "any ascended mortals from a world die along with it" is not a conclusion, it's a hypothesis.

Grey Wolf

Okay, so that's, what, like 20 or so (I don't know how big the Eleven subpantheon usually is) beings ascending to godhood over what, hundreds or thousands of years, and countless lives that never come close to that.

You and I have must have very different definitions of the word "rare" if you don't think that qualifies.

Yes, I'm aware it's a hypothesis. A hypothesis I see no reason at this point to be considering. If this is one of the longer/better lasting worlds (not guaranteed but likely), and most of the others probably didn't last nearly as long (again, not guaranteed, but likely) a simple answer is that the vast majority simply never had enough time for it to happen.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You and I have must have very different definitions of the word "rare" if you don't think that qualifies.

Unless you can prove that this world had significantly more people or lasted significantly longer than the countless others - which you can't - or that this world is somehow special - which doesn't seem to be the case - yes, we do have different definitions of rare. Two worlds with approximately the same length and population would statistically have approximately the same number of ascended gods. Since this one has at least 5, if not many more, the parsimonious statistical assumption is that so would all the others, to within an order or magnitude.


Yes, I'm aware it's a hypothesis.
Then stop misrepresenting others' positions to try to score cheap shots.

Grey Wolf

[Rrmcklin]

I'll say this, the Dark One being from another world makes no sense, because his Plan B is specifically "the world gets destroyed, and I get a say in how new world is made and can make things better for the Goblinoids". It would make no sense for him to have that as a backup plan if he's already gone through the whole "process of making a new world" thing.

And the Eleven gods were specifically said to have ascended to godhood centuries before the Dark One. That doesn't necessarily mean on this world, but we have no reason to assume it means anything else, even with this new information.

Also, I don't imagine the gods would be so caviler about destroying the world if they knew it meant some of them would die along with it. Especially the Western Pantheon, since they Elven Gods voted with them, and that was the one Pantheon to vote "yes". There's simply too much going against it for me to assume there are a jillion ascended mortal gods or that they die along with their native world.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if some gods (or demigods) that are a part of the current pantheons separate from the Dark One and Elven gods came from other worlds.

Now, maybe all of this will be addressed, but the feeling I get from Rich is that this really isn't a question he'd care about answering, because this isn't about the gods.

[Auguries]

The reason I'm asking about this is it seems like one of the following must be true:

1) All (or nearly all) ascended mortals from other worlds have died (for whatever reason).

2) The current world is the only world that has ascended mortals to Godhood, or one of a tiny fraction that has (for whatever reason).

3) There are zillions of ascended-mortal Gods running around that we haven't seen.

#1 is probably not the case. If ascended mortals died with their world (cause what else would kill them?) then I doubt the Western Pantheon would have voted Yes, because half of it would be voting for their doom.

#3 seems doubtful. Why would all of these ascended mortals be running around not participating in anything?

#2 is the most likely to be true. Since Thor has taken aside Durkon and Minrah to show them a great secret that mortal eyes are never allowed to know, I would assume that there is something special about this world. Of course I could be wrong (maybe Thor does this at the end of every world in the hopes that it someday makes the difference) but since this is a story, and stories have climaxes, and the lead characters of stories are often special in some way, I believe there is something new in this universe that will give the Order's world a chance at survival.

[Dion]

Let’s talk about The Dark One.

Two things. First, I haven’t read SoD, so I’m not well versed on the mythology of The Dark One. Second, I’m analyzing a comic strip, so anything I say is going to come right from my butt anyhow.

Every time the gods create a campaign world, they get to decide how it works. Every time, they get to decide if they’re running a murderhobo campaign world, and if there will be cannon fodder for the murderhobos to slaughter.

The gods have built thousands, millions, perhaps even billions of campaign worlds. If they’re mostly building D&D worlds (with some time off to create ShadowRun campaigns, or whatever) then they’ve probably created the default murderhobo world with goblin cannon fodder more times than we can count.

In this case, I’d imagine The Dark One, or some aspect of The Dark One, appears in the different campaign worlds fairly often.

In other words, yeah... I think The Dark One is recurring, something like Odin in American Gods. And each time he’s the same, and he’s not the same.

[Auguries]

Let’s talk about The Dark One.

Two things. First, I haven’t read SoD, so I’m not well versed on the mythology of The Dark One. Second, I’m analyzing a comic strip, so anything I say is going to come right from my butt anyhow.

Every time the gods create a campaign world, they get to decide how it works. Every time, they get to decide if they’re running a murderhobo campaign world, and if there will be cannon fodder for the murderhobos to slaughter.

The gods have built thousands, millions, perhaps even billions of campaign worlds. If they’re mostly building D&D worlds (with some time off to create ShadowRun campaigns, or whatever) then they’ve probably created the default murderhobo world with goblin cannon fodder more times than we can count.

In this case, I’d imagine The Dark One, or some aspect of The Dark One, appears in the different campaign worlds fairly often.

In other words, yeah... I think The Dark One is recurring, something like Odin in American Gods. And each time he’s the same, and he’s not the same.

In SOD, the gist of The Dark One is that he was raised to godhood and became pissed when he realized that his people's existence as cannon fodder was intentional on the part of the other gods. His plan is to take control of the Snarl and use it to blackmail the other pantheons into giving the humanoids a fair shake.

[The MunchKING]

(How can an artifact be transported from World to World?) .

Someone grabbed it and hauled it to an Outer Plane before the Snarl blew up the world? The Dark One made a new one in each world?

It's a Divine Artifact. I'd be more surprised if it DIDN'T survive the world blowing up SOMEHOW.

[Auguries]

It's a Divine Artifact. I'd be more surprised if it DIDN'T survive the world blowing up SOMEHOW.

Sounds like V's 9th level spell slots need to be dedicated to spamming Disjunction. :wink:

[The MunchKING]

Sounds like V's 9th level spell slots need to be dedicated to spamming Disjunction. :wink:

Eh... Less than 20% chance of working (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm), and even Then Redcloak would have to fail a WILL Save, Which Clerics are not only good at, but he has a huge Wisdom Score (minimum 19).

And then V would have to save or lose all Spellcasting, which is NOT where you want to be when there's still an Epic Lich to face. :smalltongue:

Oh, and a 95% chance the Dark One shows up a bit pissed about this artifact-blowing up thing. Let's hope one of the secrets V's Elven Secrets God knows is Corellon Larethian's number! Heck better have it on speed dial. :smalleek:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

#1 is probably not the case. If ascended mortals died with their world (cause what else would kill them?) then I doubt the Western Pantheon would have voted Yes, because half of it would be voting for their doom.

Don't assume the elven gods are so many they are half the Western Pantheon. For all we know, they might get a single vote for their entire subpantheon. Also, don't assume that theOG gods tell the ascended gods the fate that awaits them. They might have cried for the first world, but I suspect they aren't as attached, by and large, anymore. There also might be rules against it, just as with everything else Snarl-connected.

Grey Wolf

[Goblin_Priest]

Don't assume the elven gods are so many they are half the Western Pantheon. For all we know, they might get a single vote for their entire subpantheon. Also, don't assume that theOG gods tell the ascended gods the fate that awaits them. They might have cried for the first world, but I suspect they aren't as attached, by and large, anymore. There also might be rules against it, just as with everything else Snarl-connected.

Grey Wolf

Aren't the "demigods as tiebreakers" a universal rule? Did the elven gods even get to vote?

[Auguries]

Eh... Less than 20% chance of working (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm), and even Then Redcloak would have to fail a WILL Save, Which Clerics are not only good at, but he has a huge Wisdom Score (minimum 19).

And then V would have to save or lose all Spellcasting, which is NOT where you want to be when there's still an Epic Lich to face. :smalltongue:

Oh, and a 95% chance the Dark One shows up a bit pissed about this artifact-blowing up thing. Let's hope one of the secrets V's Elven Secrets God knows is Corellon Larethian's number! Heck better have it on speed dial. :smalleek:

Cmon, I have dreams too you know! :smallbiggrin: This is a story after all. And one of the things that make stories so great is when the impossible becomes possible.


Don't assume the elven gods are so many they are half the Western Pantheon. For all we know, they might get a single vote for their entire subpantheon. Also, don't assume that theOG gods tell the ascended gods the fate that awaits them. They might have cried for the first world, but I suspect they aren't as attached, by and large, anymore. There also might be rules against it, just as with everything else Snarl-connected.

I'll concede to your point. The gods of this world do seem to govern themselves with a series of hard set of rules. Also the point that the repeated traumas of loss would thicken their skins.

[Riftwolf]

In addition to this, Surtrs comment in the Godsmoot (eh, it's not Ragnarok, but it'll do) sounds like he hasn't been around for the destruction of many worlds. Maybe he's only ascended recently too?

My thought is that demigods need soul power like regular gods, and without a strong backing at worlds end, the newly ascended ones fade into obscurity. The racial demigods I can imagine clinging on, if their respective races are used in the new world (which made me think of the Gods reconstruction of the world and someone saying 'Okay, this time we don't include any race without a level adjustment, see if that makes a difference...'), so the Dark One might survive it.
I don't know if D&D covers deities falling back to mortality, but another idea is that Dvalin is the first king of the dwarves for several worlds; each time he gives up his divinity to rule as a mortal, and regains his demigod status at the end of his reign.

[The MunchKING]

In addition to this, Surtrs comment in the Godsmoot (eh, it's not Ragnarok, but it'll do) sounds like he hasn't been around for the destruction of many worlds. Maybe he's only ascended recently too?.

I took in the other way in light of this new evidence. "EH, it's not Ragnarok, but we've DONE Ragnarok, so for this world this will do, I guess."

[Rrmcklin]

I imagine the demigods (the ones who were mortal originally, anyway) ascended the same way the Dark One and Eleven gods did, but had much less of a following.

So Davlin was revered enough that he could become a deity after death, but not enough of the dwarves worshipped him (since they already worship a lot of the Northern Pantheon) to make him a major deity. Meanwhile, the Dark One is apparently the patron of all Goblinoids (at least nominally, even if the lesser known ones might not care as much) who are very numerous and seem to have no other god to turn to, and the elves are so high on themselves worshipping other elves works better for them than just worshipping the Western Pantheon.

[Auguries]

My thought is that demigods need soul power like regular gods, and without a strong backing at worlds end, the newly ascended ones fade into obscurity. The racial demigods I can imagine clinging on, if their respective races are used in the new world


I imagine the demigods (the ones who were mortal originally, anyway) ascended the same way the Dark One and Eleven gods did, but had much less of a following.

[...] Meanwhile, the Dark One is apparently the patron of all Goblinoids (at least nominally, even if the lesser known ones might not care as much) which are numerous and seem to have no other god to turn to, and the elves are so high on themselves worshipping other elves works better for them than just worshipping the Western Pantheon.

Interesting takes, could be an explanation of why the lesser gods don't last.

[Gift Jeraff]

The Dark One is almost certainly from this world if the Secret Lore of the Crimson Mantle is to be trusted. However, I am fond of the idea of Redcloak learning that his god actually deliberately gave his people a crummy lot in the world as part of his schemes.

Dvalin seems likely to be from the current world, since I think his oath nonsense would get called out if it was made for a world that no longer exists and the fact that the first dwarven king ought to find it strange that there was a god claiming he was the first king (unless the first batch of each world are born with false memories).

Thrym being from the current world makes Hel's dialogue with him less of an awkward "let's talk about things we already know for the reader's sake" and more explaining things he was genuinely unaware of (namely how good she had it in the previous world and how Loki screwed her over).

I like the idea that at least 1 elven deity is from a prior world since it explains why elves have it so great.

[facw]

Aren't the "demigods as tiebreakers" a universal rule? Did the elven gods even get to vote?

The Elven gods aren't demi-gods, they (and The Dark One are full gods, at least as far as we know). It seems like they did get to vote, presumably the same as any of the others (see 999 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html)).

In any event, the question seems to depend on how much of what Red Cloak learned from the Crimson Mantle is true (and/or whether Red Cloak is lying to Xykon). IIRC, Red Cloak says that the Elves raised their own gods (this may also be from elsewhere in the comic), and that later The Dark One ascended to godhood after he was killed. If that timeline is true, then they are all products of this world.

However, it is possible that the Elves ascended earlier (or even were there from the start), and that for whatever reason the gods created this world with false memories of the Elven gods ascending from mortals, even if it didn't actually happen in this world (or even never happened at all).

For The Dark One, it seems more likely he is of this world. Had he actually ascended earlier, he presumably would have had a full seat at the table for the creation of the world, and would be able to accomplish his goals (though perhaps even being an equal partner wouldn't be enough to get him what he wants).

I don't think we have enough information to say even that much about the various demi-gods.

My intuition is that they are of this world, and that there's some special property of the "true" gods that allows them to survive the loss of mortal worshipers and the material plane while any ascended gods cannot (Thor's recent comment about being made of ideas may be a hint). I guess we'll see though.

[Ruck]

Sounds like V's 9th level spell slots need to be dedicated to spamming Disjunction. :wink:


Eh... Less than 20% chance of working (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm), and even Then Redcloak would have to fail a WILL Save, Which Clerics are not only good at, but he has a huge Wisdom Score (minimum 19).

And then V would have to save or lose all Spellcasting, which is NOT where you want to be when there's still an Epic Lich to face. :smalltongue:

Oh, and a 95% chance the Dark One shows up a bit pissed about this artifact-blowing up thing. Let's hope one of the secrets V's Elven Secrets God knows is Corellon Larethian's number! Heck better have it on speed dial. :smalleek:

I've made this case before that there's a chance the story ends this way (although I think Xykon and Redcloak would have to be defeated first).

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480633-Least-Favorite-Member-of-the-Order&p=20513692&highlight=disjunction#post20513692
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480633-Least-Favorite-Member-of-the-Order&p=20514869&highlight=disjunction#post20514869


Aren't the "demigods as tiebreakers" a universal rule? Did the elven gods even get to vote?

"Not as their own group. They vote as part of the Western Pantheon. I'm not really sure why, though." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html)

[RainbowCloakBun]

There's no reason that an ascended God would suddenly die out due to a lack of followers. The afterlife planes are made of ideas that enough people believe in that they formed actual places. Gods are made of ideas too, so wouldn't it make sense that a god is just someone that enough people believe in?
If that's the case, of course a god could survive without the world; the afterlife have presumably been going this whole time, hence why every soul killed if the planet was destroyed would be "safe" in their respective afterlife.

[woweedd]

There's no reason that an ascended God would suddenly die out due to a lack of followers. The afterlife planes are made of ideas that enough people believe in that they formed actual places. Gods are made of ideas too, so wouldn't it make sense that a god is just someone that enough people believe in?
If that's the case, of course a god could survive without the world; the afterlife have presumably been going this whole time, hence why every soul killed if the planet was destroyed would be "safe" in their respective afterlife.
Actually...IF Gods are essentially sapient i was...Once an idea is forgotten, does it even matter? I think it's plausible that, once a God is forgotten, with no one left who even remembers their name, they fade, vanishing into the Outer Planes just as dead mortals do when no one remembers them.

[RainbowCloakBun]

Dead mortals don't vanish into a plane based on who can remember them. They enter a plane when they die, and don't so much vanish as become a part of the plane.

Also, why treat mortals the same as gods? Mortal souls are not likely to be made of thoughts, given that they're a source of power(in the form of thoughts) themselves. For all we know, when a mortal dies and ascends, their soul goes on to the afterlife, while the idea of who they were, that so many people remember, lives on as a new god.

[Mike Havran]

Dead mortals don't vanish into a plane based on who can remember them. They enter a plane when they die, and don't so much vanish as become a part of the plane.

Also, why treat mortals the same as gods? Mortal souls are not likely to be made of thoughts, given that they're a source of power(in the form of thoughts) themselves. For all we know, when a mortal dies and ascends, their soul goes on to the afterlife, while the idea of who they were, that so many people remember, lives on as a new god.

That would mean there is an actual soul of the Dark One in Acheron, being overseen by the Dark One as an idea. I think it is more likely that divine energy from belief of worshippers sort of attaches itself to that particular soul until there is a critical amount that would ignite the ascension process.

[CJG]

That would mean there is an actual soul of the Dark One in Acheron, being overseen by the Dark One as an idea. I think it is more likely that divine energy from belief of worshippers sort of attaches itself to that particular soul until there is a critical amount that would ignite the ascension process.

Sounds almost like “birthing” a star. Have enough “stuff” and you collapse into a Star, don’t and you puff out.

[Goblin_Priest]

Dead mortals don't vanish into a plane based on who can remember them. They enter a plane when they die, and don't so much vanish as become a part of the plane.

Also, why treat mortals the same as gods? Mortal souls are not likely to be made of thoughts, given that they're a source of power(in the form of thoughts) themselves. For all we know, when a mortal dies and ascends, their soul goes on to the afterlife, while the idea of who they were, that so many people remember, lives on as a new god.

If gods are but thoughts, though, how'd they survive the destruction of all the thinkers (mortals) in the past?

[hroþila]

If gods are but thoughts, though, how'd they survive the destruction of all the thinkers (mortals) in the past?
It is possible they accumulate soul fuel that lets them last for a bit (e.g. some millennia), although increasingly weakened. Hel claims to be withering away, although it is true that when she says that it comes across as whining more than as a fact.

[woweedd]

It is possible they accumulate soul fuel that lets them last for a bit (e.g. some millennia), although increasingly weakened. Hel claims to be withering away, although it is true that when she says that it comes across as whining more than as a fact.
I personally took that joke as being a subtle nod to the fact that she, despite being a god, constantly looks pale, emaciated, and washed-out. Probably as a side-effect of being Goddess of Disease IE she looks sick.

[hamishspence]

I personally took that joke as being a subtle nod to the fact that she, despite being a god, constantly looks pale, emaciated, and washed-out. Probably as a side-effect of being Goddess of Disease IE she looks sick.

Or, as a side effect of being Goddess of Northern Undead, she has the Undead Qualities salient divine ability:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#undeadQualities

[Mad Humanist]

I definitely think the evidence points to the Dark One being from this world and the Elven Gods being from previous worlds.

Has anyone considered the possibility that Elves used to be an NPC race, and the Dark One is just rediscovering the game that the Elves pulled before?

[Rrmcklin]

I definitely think the evidence points to the Dark One being from this world and the Elven Gods being from previous worlds.

Has anyone considered the possibility that Elves used to be an NPC race, and the Dark One is just rediscovering the game that the Elves pulled before?

What evidence points to the Elven gods being from previous worlds?

[Kish]

I think it's real unlikely that "using the Snarl to threaten the gods" was done before.

For one thing, if it was, then Loki bringing up the previous example of the elven gods should have led those who were already leaning toward killing the newly-ascended Dark One to go, "KILL IT WITH FIRE!" rather than letting him live.

[Rrmcklin]

Also, I'd imagine if the Elven Gods were from previous worlds, they wouldn't just get a section of the Western Continent and act as a subpantheon of the Western Pantheon - they'd have made their own continent when creating this world.

[Sniffnoy]

Is it possible this is simply the first world that's lasted long enough to raise new gods of its own?

[woweedd]

Is it possible this is simply the first world that's lasted long enough to raise new gods of its own?
Possible? Yeha. Likely...Not really, no. I mean, assuming that a world's time increases in about two-four year increments each time, as the Gods get better at defending it again, on average, then, with thousands of worlds....That's, well, longer then our planet's been around near the end. Why wouldn't anyone have inspired fanatical devotion in that time?

[Rrmcklin]

I feel like it's a bold assumption to think the world's last longer each time. They've definitely made a lot of progress since the second one, but with the number of attempts they made, I don't think you can really take "getting better with each one" a given if this world is only somewhere around one to two-thousand years old.

[Mad Humanist]

What evidence points to the Elven gods being from previous worlds?

The fact they have a cushy deal.


I think it's real unlikely that "using the Snarl to threaten the gods" was done before.

For one thing, if it was, then Loki bringing up the previous example of the elven gods should have led those who were already leaning toward killing the newly-ascended Dark One to go, "KILL IT WITH FIRE!" rather than letting him live.

I don't follow that. Clearly each God looks at each event and thinks "How can I use this to further my agenda." Loki is one of the most creative of Gods. So trying to second guess what Loki will do is foolish.


Also, I'd imagine if the Elven Gods were from previous worlds, they wouldn't just get a section of the Western Continent and act as a subpantheon of the Western Pantheon - they'd have made their own continent when creating this world.

Maybe ascended Gods have to be adopted into one of he major pantheons. If accepted the Dark One's aura would change. Allowing him his own pantheon would give him way too much power.


Is it possible this is simply the first world that's lasted long enough to raise new gods of its own?

I don't think this is likely. Why have only a few data points of the longevity of world versus iteration number graph, and we have no idea if that graph is linear, exponential, random, sinusoidal or something else entirely.

[martianmister]

There is no reason to believe that ascended gods will die with the world they ascended from. The Dark One has a plane full of goblinoid souls that worship him. Same is true for the Elven Gods and other ascended gods and demi-gods.

[Goblin_Priest]

The fact they have a cushy deal.

A valid but weak argument, I believe. All PC races have a cushy deal. Sure, some are better than others, but not to the extent of what the low-CR monstrous races get. Kobolds get ridiculous stat penalties for the same level-adjustment as PC races, for examples, while hobgoblins get a +1 level adjustment for very little.

Gnomes, halflings, dwarves, half-orcs... may not be as good as humans, but, both mechanically and lore-wise (territory), they are much better off than, say, goblins. The races that don't form empires of their own just tag in with humans, like halflings and half-orcs, and all of the PC races can be assumed to live in human lands if they want to, but that's not a luxury goblins have, for the most part.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The fact they have a cushy deal.

I don’t think they have a cushy deal at all. Sure, lush jungles are better for humans and elves than deserts, but not better than the climate around Azure city (in fact, factoring in tropical deseases, it is considerably worse).

Other than Laurin’s word, which is as reliable as Tarquin’s, we don’t have any indication that the humans were even meant to be competing with the lizards for the desert. Maybe they expanded there, with marginal more success than the elves’ own attempts at colonization.


There is no reason to believe that ascended gods will die with the world they ascended from.
Yes there is: with billions of previous worlds, there should be far more ascended gods.

Grey Wolf

[Dion]

with billions of previous worlds, there should be far more ascended gods.

First option: worlds that create new gods are exceedingly rare. Of all the billions of worlds, only a tiny handful have created new gods like King Dvalin or Banjo.

Second option: there are millions of dormant new gods. The universe is teaming with forgotten gods like Wobbly John, the puppet god of lies.

Third option: the new gods are enduring and recurring. Perhaps The Dark One has ascended thousands of times. He may look different or have a different name in each world, but in each world he reoccurs as a new aspect of the same enduring god. Perhaps he has even has created the crimson mantle (or crimson helm, or crimson mace) each time, without memory or understanding. Perhaps his nature as a god prevents him from knowing that he is enduring, like some type of terrible cosmic anosognosia.

Or maybe something else is going on. But I like the third option, personally.

[woweedd]

I feel like it's a bold assumption to think the world's last longer each time. They've definitely made a lot of progress since the second one, but with the number of attempts they made, I don't think you can really take "getting better with each one" a given if this world is only somewhere around one to two-thousand years old.
I believe Rich has stated that the date sin this comic aren't for the start of the universe, they're from the start of the calendar.

[Synesthesy]

Yes there is: with billions of previous worlds, there should be far more ascended gods.

Grey Wolf

And what about there exists billions of ascended gods, but only few of them where ever acepted in the main pantheons?

We know that at least one God exist without being part of a pantheon (the Dark One, and someone could argue about Banjo too), and we have seen only the main pantheons as they are the only gods that get to vote about the fate of the world.


Let's say that in a world sometime ago the Gods wanted to try a sci fi setting, and they created the race of the Daleks. Then after some centuries, a Dalek become a god, but as daleks are unpleasant, the other god did not include him in any of the main pantheons, and when that world went down, they decided to never create Daleks again. Now, after an incredible huge number of worlds, how could we know about this god? A God that has neither clerics nor soul, so a God that has no power at all?

What I wanted to say is that we only know gods that either A) became part of a major pantheon or B) ascended in this world.

Maybe surviving a world to the next is not that easy. Maybe the main pantheon don't like newer gods, maybe they work against their survival. We don't know, but we can't say that they never existed...

[martianmister]

Yes there is: with billions of previous worlds, there should be far more ascended gods.

Grey Wolf

We don't know how many ascended gods there is, or how long these past worlds last before destruction.

[Dion]

I feel like it's a bold assumption to think the world's last longer each time.

Yeah, people seem to be making a lot of assumptions based on zero evidence. For all we know, millions of these worlds lasted 10 billion years before being consumed by a supernova sun.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yeah, people seem to be making a lot of assumptions based on zero evidence. For all we know, millions of these worlds have lasted 10 billion years before being consumed by a supernova sun.
Stars that live for ten billion years don't go supernova. Massive and supermassive stars live on the order of ten million to one hundred million years.

[Mad Humanist]

Yeah, people seem to be making a lot of assumptions based on zero evidence.

I have not seen anyone making really hard claims on zero evidence. Most people seem to be pointing out possibilities that others have not considered. That does imply implicit assumption making was going on. But my perception here is that the main activity going on in this thread is mapping out what the possibilities are.


For all we know, millions of these worlds lasted 10 billion years before being consumed by a supernova sun.

Well Sunna would probably have something to say about that. Actually that raises a question. Sunna and Mani have responsibility for the Sun and Moon respectively. Are there equivalent deities in the other pantheons? If so how do they divide their duties? That could be utterly bizarre.

[Auguries]

Stars that live for ten billion years don't go supernova. Massive and supermassive stars live on the order of ten million to one hundred million years.

The original point still stands. We have no evidence that the universes created by the gods don't have a finite lifespan (heat death or otherwise).

It is very likely that the gods haven't succeeded in this even once thus far due to the Snarl issue.

[Dion]

It is very likely that the gods haven't succeeded in this even once thus far due to the Snarl issue.

Why does this seem unlikely to you? Because you have a difficult time comprehending the time scale involved?

[Rrmcklin]

The fact they have a cushy deal.

They have a "cushy deal" because the other gods accepted them with open arms. It's said so in Start of Darkness.




I don't follow that. Clearly each God looks at each event and thinks "How can I use this to further my agenda." Loki is one of the most creative of Gods. So trying to second guess what Loki will do is foolish.

Do you think this says anything specifically about the gods?


Maybe ascended Gods have to be adopted into one of he major pantheons. If accepted the Dark One's aura would change. Allowing him his own pantheon would give him way too much power.

And maybe they didn't. You don't have any actual basis to be saying this. And the Dark One is his own pantheon. A "pantheon of one".

[Rrmcklin]

Yes there is: with billions of previous worlds, there should be far more ascended gods.

Grey Wolf

That's the thing, you keep saying this as if you have any idea of how long these worlds have lasted, how hard it actually is to ascend, or any actual facts of the situation. You just keep going "there should be more" when we don't even know how many thereare in the first place.

[Auguries]

Why does this seem unlikely to you?

In Strip 1139 we see a very large number of universe gravestones, 100k's or millions. The current OOTS universe is stated to have lasted about 1500 years so far.

In strips 998 and 999 we see the opinions of several god(ess)s that suggest that the lifetime of the current world is typical ("This world's time has passed" and "I'm bored with this world anyway").

It's not impossible that previous worlds haven't survived until a natural death. But it seems very unlikely.


Because you have a difficult time comprehending the time scale involved?

You shouldn't go out of your way to start conflicts. It's psychologically unhealthy.

[Mad Humanist]

And maybe they didn't. You don't have any actual basis to be saying this.

And you don't have any basis for saying I'm wrong. We simply don't have that much evidence yet.


And the Dark One is his own pantheon. A "pantheon of one".

IF the pantheon membership is fixed and inherent, this could explain why the Dark One is rejected. Because the sole member of a pantheon of 1 has for more power than any other god.

[Auguries]

That's the thing, you keep saying this as if you have any idea of how long these worlds have lasted, how hard it actually is to ascend, or any actual facts of the situation. You just keep going "there should be more" when we don't even know how many thereare in the first place.

There are at least 4 elven deities out of 19 total in strip 999.

[Kish]

Well Sunna would probably have something to say about that. Actually that raises a question. Sunna and Mani have responsibility for the Sun and Moon respectively. Are there equivalent deities in the other pantheons? If so how do they divide their duties? That could be utterly bizarre.
Thor is the god of storms. Adad is the god of storms. Hel is the goddess of death. Nergal is the god of death.

The sun and the moon only look harder to have multiple gods from different pantheons be in charge of because you're thinking in real-world scientific terms, where the sun and the moon are outside the world entirely.

[hroþila]

There are at least 4 elven deities out of 19 total in strip 999.
No, there are at least 4 elven high priests. The elves worship the Western gods in addition to the elven subpantheon, so one of those could theoretically be the high priest of a non-elven deity.

[zimmerwald1915]

There are at least 4 elven deities out of 19 total in strip 999.
There are four elven priests in strip 999 (not counting Veldrina). Any of those four (not Veldrina, whom we know is the Favored Soul of an elven goddess) might worship elven gods, but might not. Similarly, any of the other 14 priests (except the guy in front who is almost certainly the priest of Marduk) might worship an elven god despite not being an elf.

EDIT: ninja'd.

[Rrmcklin]

And you don't have any basis for saying I'm wrong. We simply don't have that much evidence yet.

I do have a basis to say you're wrong, see my response to the bottom portion of your post.


IF the pantheon membership is fixed and inherent, this could explain why the Dark One is rejected. Because the sole member of a pantheon of 1 has for more power than any other god.

Clearly not the case because the Eleven gods vote along with the Western Pantheon. We don't know exactly why they were leery of the Dark One (though reasons are probably easy to infer) but we were explicitly told that they were fine with the Elves when they arrived.

Which also goes against your claim of "The Elves have it good, so their gods must have been from a previous world", although that claim didn't naturally follow either.

[Jasdoif]

No, there are at least 4 elven high priests. The elves worship the Western gods in addition to the elven subpantheon, so one of those could theoretically be the high priest of a non-elven deity.Indeed.

The elves worship their own gods in addition to certain Western Gods (since their homeland is in the west), not in place of. The elven gods are more like elf-specific associates rather than a replacement pantheon.
Also, I'm not sure we can fairly assume Western "associates" rate higher than Northern "demigods".

[zimmerwald1915]

Indeed.

Also, I'm not sure we can fairly assume Western "associates" rate higher than Northern "demigods".
Considering the elven high priests (at least one of whom is likely to actually worship an elven god) vote at the same time as the rest of the high priests, and that Veldrina makes a distinction between her "really minor [that is to say, demigod-like] elven goddess" and the rest of the elven part of the pantheon, I think it's fairly safe to say that western "associates" do rank higher than northern "demigods."

[Mike Havran]

Yes there is: with billions of previous worlds, there should be far more ascended gods.

Grey WolfOn the other hand, the Dark One believes he will survive destruction/unmaking of the current world to make the next one more fair for goblinoids, and he probably has some divine knowledge to back up his belief.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

First option: worlds that create new gods are exceedingly rare. Of all the billions of worlds, only a tiny handful have created new gods like King Dvalin or Banjo.
Which I discard out of hand because in this one world alone there are a handful of elven ones, a goblin one and at least one dwarven one.


Second option: there are millions of dormant new gods. The universe is teaming with forgotten gods like Wobbly John, the puppet god of lies.

Third option: the new gods are enduring and recurring. Perhaps The Dark One has ascended thousands of times. He may look different or have a different name in each world, but in each world he reoccurs as a new aspect of the same enduring god. Perhaps he has even has created the crimson mantle (or crimson helm, or crimson mace) each time, without memory or understanding. Perhaps his nature as a god prevents him from knowing that he is enduring, like some type of terrible cosmic anosognosia.

Or maybe something else is going on. But I like the third option, personally.

I find 2 and 3 as well as my own "they're dead, Jim" a distinction without a difference (in the proverbial sense, not the fallacy sense, which I only learned of a minute ago when I googled the phrase to make sure I had it the right ay around). Whether the ascended gods of previous planets are completely gone, or are powerless voices like Discworld's Small Gods and Tamuli's Forgotten Ones, or they work on some kind of resurrection process that sees them constantly come back is not a distinction I particularly care about.


We don't know, but we can't say that they never existed...

You were quoting me, but you don't seem to disagree with me. I take it this is just exploring my position further? Or am I missing why you quoted me?


That's the thing, you keep saying this as if you have any idea of how long these worlds have lasted, how hard it actually is to ascend, or any actual facts of the situation. You just keep going "there should be more" when we don't even know how many thereare in the first place.

I've already given you reasons for all those objections. I grow tired of your posting style, though, so I won't try to explain myself to you again.

Edit:

On the other hand, the Dark One believes he will survive destruction/unmaking of the current world to make the next one more fair for goblinoids, and he probably has some divine knowledge to back up his belief.

Err... yes, that's where my position started. I think it would be interesting story-wise to discover that the Dark One was lied to by the evil gods - that they helped him for their own reasons, in the knowledge that he'd be gone soon enough, and therefore the whole pathos of the futility of the Plan is augmented even further from the reality that even if the DO won, he would not get to vote on the new world for better conditions for goblinkind.

Grey Wolf

[Rrmcklin]

Err... yes, that's where my position started. I think it would be interesting story-wise to discover that the Dark One was lied to by the evil gods - that they helped him for their own reasons, in the knowledge that he'd be gone soon enough, and therefore the whole pathos of the futility of the Plan is augmented even further from the reality that even if the DO won, he would not get to vote on the new world for better conditions for goblinkind.

Grey Wolf

See now, in a different story, more focused on the gods I think that actually could be interesting, but, that doesn't seem to be this story.

Because going "the evil gods helped him for their own reasons" makes me think those "reasons" should be important to the actual story, and I don't see things going that direction.

Which is really the main sticking point here: I'm fairly confident that the answer to "why aren't there billions of other ascendant mortals" is "It doesn't matter to the story", because Rich seems to give answers like that to things people find potentially interesting fairly often. Which is actually something I appreciate about his writing.

[Kish]

See now, in a different story, more focused on the gods I think that actually could be interesting, but, that doesn't seem to be this story.

Because going "the evil gods helped him for their own reasons" makes me think those "reasons" should be important to the actual story, and I don't see things going that direction.
If Loki, Tiamat, and Rat are tricking the Dark One in any way, I will be amazed if that isn't an important aspect of the plot in book 7.

Likewise if the Dark One is tricking Redcloak (which I consider substantially more likely).

[Rrmcklin]

If Loki, Tiamat, and Rat are tricking the Dark One in any way, I will be amazed if that isn't an important aspect of the plot in book 7.

Likewise if the Dark One is tricking Redcloak (which I consider substantially more likely).

I would also find that relatively more likely, but not substantially more likely. I'm just bewildered at why a god would have to trick his own High Priest into something. Ditto someone like Redcloak who has already accepted the deaths of all living Goblinoids as possible and acceptable.

Edit: It's already been established that the souls of people who die on a world don't die with its destruction unless the Snarl gets them. Their continued existence is not tied to the existence of the world. Even if the ascended mortal gods aren't actually the souls of the deceased (which strikes me as very unlikely given what we've heard, but I guess possible) that does still seem to be precedent.

[Synesthesy]

You were quoting me, but you don't seem to disagree with me. I take it this is just exploring my position further? Or am I missing why you quoted me?




I was trying to find a good explanation of your thesis, so yes, I agree with you;

I just said that the cases "there never existed other ascended Gods" and "older ascended Gods existed, but not now" may be true, just as something else like "there exist some older ascended Gods, but they have no power as they have no more follower right now", and that this last case can be actively caused by the main pantheons Gods with every divine being they dislike.

(Sorry if I write something stupid, I still use this forum as a way to practice my English :smallwink:)

[MartianInvader]

I kind of like the "persistent resurrection" theory - maybe there are only a handful of ascended-mortal Gods, but they reincarnate as mortals and re-ascend in each world (provided the world survives long enough). So there's not zillions of them because they didn't actually start as mortals - they've persistently been around since the beginning - but the way they interface with a world is by first living there as a mortal.

I guess for this theory to work, though, they would have to forget everything with each rebirth, otherwise parts of The Dark One's story wouldn't make sense.

Also, I think Dion is basically arguing for option 2) that I laid out earlier: This world is somehow special, and is one of a very few (or the only) to raise mortals up to Godhood. Of course, that raises the question: Why?

[Rrmcklin]

Pretty sure reincarnation isn't a thing here. When you're permadead your soul gets used as a battery for the gods/become one with your alignment plane.

Maybe, ascending is the one (or one of the few?) exceptions to that.

[Deliverance]

In Strip 1139 we see a very large number of universe gravestones, 100k's or millions. The current OOTS universe is stated to have lasted about 1500 years so far.

In strips 998 and 999 we see the opinions of several god(ess)s that suggest that the lifetime of the current world is typical ("This world's time has passed" and "I'm bored with this world anyway").

I disagree that those quotes suggest the lifetime of the current world is typical. While the current lifetime of the current world being typical could result in such statements, there are other situations that could as well and you are not considering which gods it is making the statements.

"This world's time has passed" - Given that the gods don't have a way of mending a world after the Snarl starts breaking free and rifts show up - the only reason they didn't already wrap up the current world is that the humans were willing to give it a try on extending it - the Snarl's rifts showing up is the first sign that their current prison has failed and that the end of the world is nigh.

Thus it is not unreasonable for a god to consider that the world's time has passed once the rifts appear. They've got a lot of experience of that. Finally, the god saying this is Hoder, the god of winter, and the full quote is "For all things, there is a season. This world's time has passed".

"I'm bored with this world anyway"... Boredom comes in many variants, and possibly some gods get more easily bored than others. Possibly some gods are just creative, and prefer creating new worlds to administrating them, easily bored of the latter. :smallbiggrin:

That the line about boredom uttered by Njord, God of the sea, is immediately followed by "Ooo! I could try out that new idea I had for a coastline", suggests to me more the boredom of a creative mind currently engaged in dull work, than boredom due to achieving an average world lifespan.


This does not, of course, disprove the idea that the current world's lifetime is typical; it merely shows that your arguments in favour of this being the case are weak when it is so easy to create other cases that could justify the gods' statements.

[Auguries]

Pretty sure reincarnation isn't a thing here. When you're permadead your soul gets used as a battery for the gods/become one with your alignment plane.

Maybe, ascending is the one (or one of the few?) exceptions to that.

Also, the reincarnate spell has not been seen or mentioned IIRC. Although I don't think many people would be interested anyways. :smallbiggrin:

[Dion]

Also, I think Dion is basically arguing for option 2) that I laid out earlier: This world is somehow special, and is one of a very few (or the only) to raise mortals up to Godhood. Of course, that raises the question: Why?

Nah, I actually like the idea that many of the ascended gods endure across worlds, and ascend repeatedly.

In my personal head canon, The Old One is an aspect of the enduring god of goblins who has ascended many times.

I like this idea for two reasons. First, I’m a huge fan of the American Gods style gods with many aspects, where the same basic idea of a god gets repeated again and again, with different flavors each time.

Second, I think of the gods creating the world are like a bunch of authors getting together to create a campaign setting. After they’ve created a few thousand campaign settings, some ideas are going to get reused multiple times. An ascended god of goblins is a cool idea I think the gods would use over and over again.

[Jasdoif]

Considering the elven high priests (at least one of whom is likely to actually worship an elven god) vote at the same time as the rest of the high priests, and that Veldrina makes a distinction between her "really minor [that is to say, demigod-like] elven goddess" and the rest of the elven part of the pantheon, I think it's fairly safe to say that western "associates" do rank higher than northern "demigods."Only if you assume the associates are rated above the demigods, and that their high priests vote alongside everyone else rather than waiting outside until a tiebreaker is needed (and then voting separately). Since that's pretty much the exact question I'm asking...I am unmoved by "if we assume that it's true, it follows that it's true".

[Emanick]

Which I discard out of hand because in this one world alone there are a handful of elven ones, a goblin one and at least one dwarven one.

We don't know if the elven gods are from this world, and it's also debatable whether Dvalin is from this world. The Dark One is the only god that we can, with considerable confidence, claim originated in the current world.


Pretty sure reincarnation isn't a thing here. When you're permadead your soul gets used as a battery for the gods/become one with your alignment plane.

Maybe, ascending is the one (or one of the few?) exceptions to that.

The Giant once said that, if you like, you can imagine that the souls of OOTSverse inhabitants that died as babies eventually get reincarnated. So while that doesn't demonstrate that reincarnation inarguably exists, you also can't categorically say that reincarnation never happens.

Granted, it's a weird sort of canonicity when an author says "if you like, you can say that this is true in my universe," but hey, what can you do.

[Kish]

According to Wrecan, "[The elven gods] vote as part of the Western Pantheon." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) I think there's a pretty big gap between "vote as part of the Western Pantheon" and voting secondarily and so rarely that it's questionable if any of them bothered to show up.

That assumes Wrecan has a clue what he's talking about, of course.

[woweedd]

According to Wrecan, "[The elven gods] vote as part of the Western Pantheon." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) I think there's a pretty big gap between "vote as part of the Western Pantheon" and voting secondarily and so rarely that it's questionable if any of them bothered to show up.

That assumes Wrecan has a clue what he's talking about, of course.
As the Sacred Knight of The Expository Aside, he should!:smallbiggrin:

[Tev]

Which I discard out of hand because in this one world alone there are a handful of elven ones, a goblin one and at least one dwarven one.

You seem confident in posting this. Do you have source handy? Other than the Dark One?

I think too many assumptions ITT count on the Dark One's trustworthiness, which frankly has not been demonstrated yet. And you can make simple argument why he would lie to his high priest: he is simply too weak to influence (enough) world creation (maybe elfs needed to raise many gods to get the nice part of the continent AND good natural defences). Maybe Redcloak's plan A is best chance for the Dark One to gain leverage over (or simply kill) other gods, and plan B is to make sure he gets as many tries as he can. Especially considering goblins start with disadvantage, so it seems less likely they would prevail as time passes for the world (as opposed to, say, elves).

It's not perfect theory (why would not other gods interfere more against his plans?), but taking everything in crayons at face value seems naive (see current strip for hints why).

[Jasdoif]

According to Wrecan, "[The elven gods] vote as part of the Western Pantheon." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) I think there's a pretty big gap between "vote as part of the Western Pantheon" and voting secondarily and so rarely that it's questionable if any of them bothered to show up.

That assumes Wrecan has a clue what he's talking about, of course.Hmm. I don't know....


On one hand, Wrecan is specifically responding to Roy asking why the Elven gods don't get a vote of their own on par with the other pantheons, and I think his statement would be as true regardless of where they stood in the pantheon. On the other hand, Wrecan did just say the vote came down to "a simple majority of the full-fledged gods within that group", so it would be a little odd for Wrecan to omit that detail if it applied to all the elven gods. On the other hand (tentacle?), it wasn't germane to the question Roy was asking, so it would've been a potentially distracting detail to the comic.

On another hand (prehensile tail?!), Wrecan not knowing why the Elven gods vote as part of the pantheon he worships suggests they're not significant enough throughout the pantheon to even be well understood. On another other hand (pseudopod?!?!), that's even less conclusive than blindly assuming Elven high priests only worship Elven deities.


In conclusion...heck if I know. I think it ends up about the same as it looked to me before: It may be convenient, and could well be true, to believe the Western Gods treat their ascended associates as equals...but at this point there's simply not enough information to make it assuming it fair.

[KorvinStarmast]

In Strip 1139 we see a very large number of universe gravestones, 100k's or millions. World gravestones.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In Strip 1139 we see a very large number of universe gravestones
World gravestones.

They might be one and the same. I get the impression that each universe since the Snarl is the one planet that holds him, a sun, a moon, and a few pinpricks of light to decorate the night sky.

Grey Wolf

[Deliverance]

They might be one and the same. I get the impression that each universe since the Snarl is the one planet that holds him, a sun, a moon, and a few pinpricks of light to decorate the night sky.

Grey Wolf
I'm nearly halfway in agreement with that, as it makes for a nice self-contained story: one world in the material plane to a universe, recreated as prison umpteen times; Unfortunately, there is one particular person in the comic whose backstory makes that a hard sell, namely Ganonron; Consider the following:

a) We have no evidence of any universe/world before the one created by the pantheons, that spawned the snarl, and we know (from direct Thorexposition in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html) that the world that spawned the Snarl was the first one the pantheons created

b) The three fiends had access to Ganonron, "terror of a thousand planes, a conjurer who teleported vast armies to conquer world after world": http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html


How to deal with this? It seems to me, that if we take Thorexposition as infallible word of god(author) regarding what the pantheons have been up to, one of these three possibilities must hold true:

a) the archfiends lied about Ganonron, he never did what they claimed -- I don't see what they'd stand to gain from doing so and why they'd fantasize about multiple worlds if every universe held one world, when merely stating true information about what a powerful conjurer he was would do for the purpose of tempting V, but logically it is a possibility

b) the archfiends told the truth, and the archfiends got Ganonron's soul from a universe predating the first universe created by the pantheons: a universe about which we know nothing, and about which nothing in the story has even hinted at the existence of, except Ganonron's conquest of worlds requiring a universe with multiple worlds

c) the archfiends told the truth, and at least one of the universes created by the pantheons contained multiple worlds, and the archfiends got Ganonron's soul from such a universe after his conquest spree: said worlds also being something about which we know nothing, and about which nothing in the story has even hinted at the existence of except for Ganonron's conquest of worlds requiring a universe with multiple worlds


Your impression is consistent with a) and b).

Now, a) seems to me to be a bit of a cop-out, so I reject it as I consider the Giant a better author than that; Between b) and c), on balance, between having to accept the existence of prior universes of unknown creation with more worlds, that we have no evidence of, that were then followed by one-world universes created by the pantheons, and having to accept the existence of multiple worlds in some (or all) of the universes the panthons, something we don't have evidence of either, I find the second proposition easier to swallow.

So as much as I like your impression, based on what I remember of the comic I'll have to go with c) some (or all) of the universes the pantheons create have more than one world.

...It would all be so much easier if we didn't have Ganonron to account for. But we do. I guess it could be finagled by discussing differences between planes and universes in different editions of D&D (did the rules for the multiverse get updated to 3rd Ed as well in the first strip? :smalltongue: etc. ) and considering other worlds on other material planes to be separate universes, created by something, whatever, that happens not to be the pantheons, but like all D&D cosmology it is a mess no matter which way you go.

[Mad Humanist]

I'm nearly halfway in agreement with that, as it makes for a nice self-contained story: one world in the material plane to a universe, recreated as prison umpteen times; Unfortunately, there is one particular person in the comic whose backstory makes that a hard sell, namely Ganonron;

It's possible that Gampnron's CV is something like a throwaway line. I mean that Rich put it in without thinking too hard about how to reconcile it with the larger universe.

Whether that is the case or not, it is not too hard to reconcile. We need only assume that the pantheons of this world are only one group out of an enormous number (possibly infinite) other gods and that in fact higher reality is essentially some sort of ecosystem of gods. That of course would raise a lot of questions. Is this group uniquely incompetent amongst gods? Is it possible for one god to move from one world to another.

Or maybe Ganonron simply conquered various semi-elemental planes. We do after all have a semi-elemental plane of ranch dressing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ganonron, "terror of a thousand planes, a conjurer who teleported vast armies to conquer world after world"

I'll admit I had completely forgotten the title of stooge #2 or #3. My position is that of Mad Humanist, that Rich forgot he had given that title to the character, but if pushed, I'd probaby would go with some form of #1: the title is Ganonron's creation as a PR stunt for whatever evil empire he crafted in the current world.

That said, I think there is a d) possibility: that Ganonron was powerful enough that, when the Snarl came coming in his original world, he plane shifted to an elemental plane he was already in control of, bided his time until the world was re-created, and went on a new rampage there; repeat multiple times until he did actually get to a thousand planes and conquering of world after world.

Grey Wolf

[Goblin_Priest]

"Worlds" is a broad term that can have many meanings. "The Europeans came and colonized the New World", this just talks about a continent. So they could be talking of as "little" as continents (no human nation really conquered significant parts of multiple continents before the UK, and even then... they didn't have Europe, barely had anything in Asia, and only had chunks of the Americas and Africa). Or they could be talking about planets all belonging to the Prime Material Plane (I've never really been sure what the official lore was on that), or could be talking about multiple planes. None of that requires him surviving the Snarl or the destruction of the Prime Material Plane.

However, given his specialization, and the fact that the outer planes are safe when the material plane gets destroyed, it's also very possible (with no comment on how likely) that he was simply on another plane of existence when the last world ended. That said, if it was that "easy" to survive the world's destruction, you'd think a lot more people would know about the Snarl?

Honestly, I think he "just" had a multi-planar empire during this latest batch of Creation.

[hroþila]

"Worlds" is indeed vague and it is likely that it refers to other planes, but for what it's worth,
the last panel of HtPGHS shows that the current iteration of creation has several planets in its prime material plane.

[zimmerwald1915]

(no human nation really conquered significant parts of multiple continents before the UK)
Achaemanid Persia (Asia, Africa, Europe);
Alexander's empire (Europe, Asia, Africa);
Carthage (Africa, Europe);
Rome (Europe, Africa, Asia);
Axum (Africa, Asia);
Ummayad Caliphate (Asia, Africa, Europe)
Mongolia (Asia, Europe)
Portugal (Europe, Africa, Asia, South America)
Spain (Europe, North America, South America, Asia)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"Worlds" is indeed vague and it is likely that it refers to other planes, but for what it's worth,
the last panel of HtPGHS shows that the current iteration of creation has several planets in its prime material plane.

"Damn it, so many good ideas that need to be discarded, just because they don't work"
~I know it's a (mis)quote, just can't remember where from. Possibly Freefall, sounds like the kind of thing Sam would say

[Goblin_Priest]

1 Achaemanid Persia (Asia, Africa, Europe);
2 Alexander's empire (Europe, Asia, Africa);
3 Carthage (Africa, Europe);
4 Rome (Europe, Africa, Asia);
5 Axum (Africa, Asia);
6 Ummayad Caliphate (Asia, Africa, Europe)
7 Mongolia (Asia, Europe)
8 Portugal (Europe, Africa, Asia, South America)
9 Spain (Europe, North America, South America, Asia)


1 - most of middle east with teeny bits of surrounding regions
2 - basically the same empire, but a wee bit more
3 - a bit of coastline on the southern mediterranean, with very small parts of Europe
4 - maybe two thirds of Europe? With the northern coastline of Africa, and most of the near east
5- Askum? tiny parts of Africa and the Middle-East
6 - Middle east, plus only northern Africa, and very little of Europe
7- half of asia, small incursion into Europe
8 - tiny bits all over
9 - small bits all over

I wouldn't have called any of their leaders "conquerors of worlds". I'd reserve such a title for someone who conquers the majority of more than one world (/continent), not for people who merely have some footholds a bit all over.

[Fyraltari]

What about Palau? (https://www.reddit.com/r/polandball/comments/4bjk4w/palauan_world_domination/)

[Synesthesy]

1 - most of middle east with teeny bits of surrounding regions
2 - basically the same empire, but a wee bit more
3 - a bit of coastline on the southern mediterranean, with very small parts of Europe
4 - maybe two thirds of Europe? With the northern coastline of Africa, and most of the near east
5- Askum? tiny parts of Africa and the Middle-East
6 - Middle east, plus only northern Africa, and very little of Europe
7- half of asia, small incursion into Europe
8 - tiny bits all over
9 - small bits all over

I wouldn't have called any of their leaders "conquerors of worlds". I'd reserve such a title for someone who conquers the majority of more than one world (/continent), not for people who merely have some footholds a bit all over.

Roman Empire had still 3 continents, with the 20% of global population united for many centuries, but if it isn't enough, the first is still Charles V, who had an Empire where Sun never sets.


However back on topic, surely Gannoron have conquered many worlds in many planes during one life. He conquered some elemental plane, some plan we and the Giant don't care about. Thor have just say that there are a lot of different planes, so there is no problem of space for Gannoron.

[MartianInvader]

After reading through all the excellent ideas in this thread, I'm gonna make my prediction:

This world IS special. It's special because the creator Gods gave it, unlike any world before, the ability to ascend Gods of its own. Remember the quote from #0274 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html), saying the Gods were more vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level would have been? Well, for their billionth attempt, the Gods decided to try creating a world with that could fight back without them. The Gods born of this world would not share the weaknesses of the Gods whose hands created the Snarl, and so they would be able to actually wage battle against it.

A variant of this theory is that the Gods just gave this world the ability to create mortals of great power to fight the Snarl, and the ascending-to-Godhood thing was a side effect. But it would still explain why there are no Gods ascended from previous worlds, as well as setting up a nice story narrative (Which powerful mortals might take up the task of battling the Snarl? Perhaps if Thor asked one of them to?)

[Mike Havran]

After reading through all the excellent ideas in this thread, I'm gonna make my prediction:

This world IS special. It's special because the creator Gods gave it, unlike any world before, the ability to ascend Gods of its own. Remember the quote from #0274 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html), saying the Gods were more vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level would have been? Well, for their billionth attempt, the Gods decided to try creating a world with that could fight back without them. The Gods born of this world would not share the weaknesses of the Gods whose hands created the Snarl, and so they would be able to actually wage battle against it.

A variant of this theory is that the Gods just gave this world the ability to create mortals of great power to fight the Snarl, and the ascending-to-Godhood thing was a side effect. But it would still explain why there are no Gods ascended from previous worlds, as well as setting up a nice story narrative (Which powerful mortals might take up the task of battling the Snarl? Perhaps if Thor asked one of them to?)I second this idea that this is the first iteration of the world where a possibility of divine ascension of a mortal soul through worship of other mortals is woven directly into its fabric. In the very first world there was no such need since the Gods inhabited it among their creations, and in the subsequent myriad of worlds, all are equally probable for the introduction, so why not this one?

However, I think the Gods did not enable this option because they wanted the newborn gods tackle Snarl directly; I think they were merely running out of ideas and wanted to broaden the brainstorming pool.

[Synesthesy]

I think that the rules of divine ascension should be on another level then the world where mortal live...

Gods live outside the world, on a different logical level. They should not be able to change the rules of godhoods... This is a power that only a Super God should have.

[Kish]

There are, I am very glad to say, no "Super Gods" in the OotS setting.

[Jasdoif]

There are, I am very glad to say, no "Super Gods" in the OotS setting.Indeed.

And just to be clear: There is no "overgod" in OOTS at all. There are the nonsentient cosmological forces of the four alignments (Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos), which can be tapped directly for clerical power if you prefer not to go through a deific intermediary, but they have no capacity to take action any more than the force of gravity does. They certainly took no part in shaping the rules and procedures of the OOTS afterlife, as that was entirely done by the gods themselves.The Snarl kinda fills the narrative role I'd expect a judiciously used overdeity to fill, anyway; the Snarl's pretty laissez-faire except when reacting to certain stimuli, and the gods pursue their goals around those stimuli.

[MartianInvader]

I think that the rules of divine ascension should be on another level then the world where mortal live...

Gods live outside the world, on a different logical level. They should not be able to change the rules of godhoods... This is a power that only a Super God should have.

We know mortals can ascend to Godhood, at least in some circumstances. Whether this is an ironclad law of the multiverse or something the Gods decided, it's certainly reasonable to imagine they could create a world in such a way that its mortals are more-inclined or less-inclined to ascend. And given the apparently low ascention-to-world ratio, it's fair to guess that worlds won't ascend any mortals at all unless they are exceptionally predisposed to do so.

Also worth noting that Gods have at least one way to create other Gods - Hel is Loki's daughter, for example. So they have at least some influence over new God production.

[Deliverance]

Also worth noting that Gods have at least one way to create other Gods - Hel is Loki's daughter, for example. So they have at least some influence over new God production.
That doesn't follow. As one counterexample, the four pantheons could be a case of creation ex nihilo: Perhaps the pantheons sprang into existence fully formed with existing family relationships already in place.

[MartianInvader]

How about when Thor knocked up the fertility Goddess? I find it hard to swallow that the Gods came into being in an ex nihilo state of "I banged you last night."

[The MunchKING]

How about when Thor knocked up the fertility Goddess? I find it hard to swallow that the Gods came into being in an ex nihilo state of "I banged you last night."

Could be that, like Scion, that only results in powerful mortals being born, and they still have to "earn" their Godhood... Which, if Worship is required, could be harder the more the pantheon fills up.

I mean it's easy to be the Death God when the Pantheon doesn't have one of those yet, but being a new one now, might take some work on picking a good portfolio.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Could be that, like Scion, that only results in powerful mortals being born, and they still have to "earn" their Godhood... Which, if Worship is required, could be harder the more the pantheon fills up.

I mean it's easy to be the Death God when the Pantheon doesn't have one of those yet, but being a new one now, might take some work on picking a good portfolio.

I don't think this is the case in OotS, but still I can't help but agree it is easier to be godly with the portfolios of War, Death, Pestilence or Hunger than, say, Grievous Bodily Harm, Cruelty to Animals, Really Cool People, and Treading In Dog**** (formerly All Foreigners Especially The French, formerly Things Not Working Properly Even After You’ve Given Them A Good Thumping, never actually No Alcohol Lager, briefly Embarrassing Personal Problems), and finally People Covered in Fish

Grey Wolf

[Thanatosia]

Silly idea I don't actually think have a very good chance of being what's happening....

But we saw that OOTs-verse transitioned to 3.5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) not only during this world, but very recently!

Maybe this is the first World where, say, the Epic Level Handbook got implimented. Maybe going epic is a pre-requisite to ascension. Futhermore, Xykon and the Order of the Scribble are controlling and interfacing with the rifts using Epic-Level magic, which may be a new and unique thing to this world.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Silly idea I don't actually think have a very good chance of being what's happening....

But we saw that OOTs-verse transitioned to 3.5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) not only during this world, but very recently!

Maybe this is the first World where, say, the Epic Level Handbook got implimented. Maybe going epic is a pre-requisite to ascension. Futhermore, Xykon and the Order of the Scribble are controlling and interfacing with the rifts using Epic-Level magic, which may be a new and unique thing to this world.

I find it hard to believe that Dvalin had Epic levels - feels too much of a glad-handling politician and pushover. More importantly, you become a god by means of the belief of others, regardless of the levels you actually have.

Grey Wolf

[thereaper]

Is there any particular reason that people assume that many (even most) of the gods aren't ascended?

Outside of crayon scribbles (which were unaware that there have been more than two worlds), what evidence do we have that, say, Rat isn't from World #3746?

Keep in mind, the gods were ready to gang up on The Dark One and kill him just as he ascended. That sort of thing may have happened before, but successfully. The number of gods we see today is therefore not necessarily indicative of the number of gods that have existed, especially since the lowest hanging fruit there would likely be deities for specific races (and there are a lot more monstrous races than humanoid races).

There are also quite a few demigods in the Northern Pantheon. How many are there in the Southern and Western Pantheons? We have no idea. Could be hundreds, for all we know. It could very well be that ascension directly to a God is rare, and it usually occurs in stages. That could even be one of the reasons the Gods wished to dispatch The Dark One (a rapid ascension of a God of a monstrous race, outside of any Pantheon, who doesn't understand the threat of the Snarl due to said rapid ascension, and one who is opposed to the interests of the other races? Knowing that the current world will eventually end and he'll have a seat at the table? That could easily be a recipe for a second Snarl).

The current world has also lasted a lot longer than the early worlds. If we hypothesize that the number of gods has slowly increased over time, then that may be an additional factor in why the worlds are lasting longer, since it would give us an additional difference between any given worlds (even if most worlds don't generate gods, there would be some that would, and even a few statistical outliers like this one that would generate multiple).

None of this is necessarily correct, mind you; I simply wish to point out that there is a lot of uncertainty, and we shouldn't be making firm conclusions given our extremely limited information.

[Rrmcklin]

Is there any particular reason that people assume that many (even most) of the gods aren't ascended?

Outside of crayon scribbles (which were unaware that there have been more than two worlds), what evidence do we have that, say, Rat isn't from World #3746?

Keep in mind, the gods were ready to gang up on The Dark One and kill him just as he ascended. That sort of thing may have happened before, but successfully. The number of gods we see today is therefore not necessarily indicative of the number of gods that have existed, especially since the lowest hanging fruit there would likely be deities for specific races (and there are a lot more monstrous races than humanoid races).

There are also quite a few demigods in the Northern Pantheon. How many are there in the Southern and Western Pantheons? We have no idea. Could be hundreds, for all we know. It could very well be that ascension directly to a God is rare, and it usually occurs in stages. That could even be one of the reasons the Gods wished to dispatch The Dark One (a rapid ascension of a God of a monstrous race, outside of any Pantheon, who doesn't understand the threat of the Snarl due to said rapid ascension, and one who is opposed to the interests of the other races? Knowing that the current world will eventually end and he'll have a seat at the table? That could easily be a recipe for a second Snarl).

The current world has also lasted a lot longer than the early worlds. If we hypothesize that the number of gods has slowly increased over time, then that may be an additional factor in why the worlds are lasting longer, since it would give us an additional difference between any given worlds (even if most worlds don't generate gods, there would be some that would, and even a few statistical outliers like this one that would generate multiple).

None of this is necessarily correct, mind you; I simply wish to point out that there is a lot of uncertainty, and we shouldn't be making firm conclusions given our extremely limited information.

Because you don't assume such huge things until given an actual reason to do so. Even if information is limited, if the Dark One and Elven Gods are poised as exceptional, then that means there's a general rule. Obviously they aren't the only ones, Davlin also exists, but the majority? You don't assume there's a 50/50 chance of something like that with nothing directly indicating it.

[thereaper]

Assuming that the majority of the gods we've seen are or aren't ascended is a huge assumption.

[Rrmcklin]

Assuming that the majority of the gods we've seen are or aren't ascended is a huge assumption.

No, it isn't. Logic doesn't work by going "Because this thing hasn't been said to not be the case, there's an equally likely chance it is."

Until given a reason to think they are the assumption should be that they aren't. And if that latter turns out to not be the case, it will be because the comic has given us explicit reason to believe there are hundreds of deities just existing that don't actually matter in the world.

[Emanick]

In other words, there is no real reason to believe that the "O.G" gods significantly overlap with the current gods, given that all the information we've been given is incomplete at best, and unreliable at worst.

I don't know what you mean by "significantly overlap with," but given Thor's dialogue in this strip, I think we can safely assume that at least two of the "O.G." gods, Thor and Marduk, were around for World 1.0. Otherwise, Thor is just lying to Durkon and Minrah for no apparent reason, which seems pretty unlikely.

We can also probably add Odin and Frigg to the list of "confirmed O.G. gods," since they're Thor's parents, and without weird timey-wimey stuff going on, your existence can't predate your parents'.

[thereaper]

No, it isn't. Logic doesn't work by going "Because this thing hasn't been said to not be the case, there's an equally likely chance it is."

Until given a reason to think they are the assumption should be that they aren't. And if that latter turns out to not be the case, it will be because the comic has given us explicit reason to believe there are hundreds of deities just existing that don't actually matter in the world.

We have been given reason to believe that many of them are. Not any specifically, but the fact that there have been so many worlds, and we have no reason to assume they didn't have gods ascend as well, plus the fact that The Dark One seems to believe that he'll have a say in the next world (and would have access to more information regarding that than we), would together strongly imply that at least some of the gods currently seen in the world must be ascended.

[Leirus]

If gods use souls as batteries (sort of) and the fate of every soul is to get fused with their alignement plane (I think, I am fuzzy on these matters)... Could the ascended gods not survive in a diminished state until the soul of their last follower got fused?

[Mad Humanist]

We have been given reason to believe that many of them are. Not any specifically, but the fact that there have been so many worlds, and we have no reason to assume they didn't have gods ascend as well, plus the fact that The Dark One seems to believe that he'll have a say in the next world (and would have access to more information regarding that than we), would together strongly imply that at least some of the gods currently seen in the world must be ascended.

We specifically know that Dvalin was ascended. I am not sure if you were including demi-gods in that,

[WindStruck]

The thing is, there have been countless worlds before this.

So... if ascended gods stick around for the next world, where are they and why haven't we heard about them?

[woweedd]

The thing is, there have been countless worlds before this.

So... if ascended gods stick around for the next world, where are they and why haven't we heard about them?
TO paraphrase Mateo: "YES WE KNOW THAT IS THE NATURE OF THE DILEMMA THANK YOU!"

[Goblin_Priest]

It's basically the Fermi Paradox.

Regarding the Dark One and his plans... given that the other gods hid the snarl from him, it's fair to assume he has no idea how many worlds came before this one. And might not really understand what would happen to him if the world was undone.

[The MunchKING]

If gods use souls as batteries (sort of) and the fate of every soul is to get fused with their alignement plane (I think, I am fuzzy on these matters)... Could the ascended gods not survive in a diminished state until the soul of their last follower got fused?

I thought it was more they were useless (as soul power) UNTIL they fused, and the Gods basically tapped the Planes' soul energy to boost their resources.

[Goblin_Priest]

I thought it was more they were useless (as soul power) UNTIL they fused, and the Gods basically tapped the Planes' soul energy to boost their resources.

No, I think they have decreasing value as they fuse. That's why Hell having a whole bunch all at once is meaningful, because they'll all be fresh.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No, I think they have decreasing value as they fuse. That's why Hell having a whole bunch all at once is meaningful, because they'll all be fresh.

I picture it as breaching a water-tight pressure container. There is a burst of liquid when you first do it, then it slows to a trickle. You can use both for power, but you obviously get a whole lot more in the initial burst than the slow drip afterwards.

Grey Wolf

[Sniffnoy]

Yes there is: with billions of previous worlds, there should be far more ascended gods.

Grey Wolf

Billions seems a bit much. All we know is that it's at least as many as shown in the picture, and I don't think you can get a billion from that. Of course they blend together at the bottom making a real count impossible, but...

[thereaper]

The thing is, there have been countless worlds before this.

So... if ascended gods stick around for the next world, where are they and why haven't we heard about them?

The point I was trying to make is that the available evidence would suggest we probably have seen some of them; they simply haven't mentioned that fact to us because there was no reason to.

[martianmister]

1. We already know that souls from destroyed worlds still exist, because Hel's whole plan depends on getting these souls.
2. Gods get their power from their worshippers, ascended gods are ascended because of people who worship them
3. The Dark One's afterlife realm is full of goblinoid souls who worsip him.

Based on these evidence, there is no reason to believe that The Dark One's plan is gonna result in his self-destruction.

[Draconi Redfir]

Of course they blend together at the bottom making a real count impossible, but...


to be fair, if you REAAALLY want to nitpick, you can actually see the flat horizontal line where the purple background directly switches to gray, and from there the monuments get smaller yes, but also much less clumped together. so it's not ACTUALLY the monuments themselves making that gray background :smalltongue:

[MartianInvader]

to be fair, if you REAAALLY want to nitpick, you can actually see the flat horizontal line where the purple background directly switches to gray, and from there the monuments get smaller yes, but also much less clumped together. so it's not ACTUALLY the monuments themselves making that gray background :smalltongue:
Well if you really REEEAAALLLLLLY want to nitpick, I think the implication is that the monuments we see under that line are closer to us, while the background gray is formed from monuments so far away that they become indistinguishable from each other.

[Draconi Redfir]

Well if you really REEEAAALLLLLLY want to nitpick, I think the implication is that the monuments we see under that line are closer to us, while the background gray is formed from monuments so far away that they become indistinguishable from each other.

oh yeah most definately.

i was just being a dink, i'm sorry:smallbiggrin:

[Synesthesy]

1. We already know that souls from destroyed worlds still exist, because Hel's whole plan depends on getting these souls.
2. Gods get their power from their worshippers, ascended gods are ascended because of people who worship them
3. The Dark One's afterlife realm is full of goblinoid souls who worsip him.

Based on these evidence, there is no reason to believe that The Dark One's plan is gonna result in his self-destruction.

Not immediately. But what if he doesn't get a world in how the next world will be built, and in the next world there will be no goblinoids, as their role will be covered by a new kind of creatures?
Then the Dark One won't get any more soul, and maybe he'll slowly fade away...

[Emanick]

Not immediately. But what if he doesn't get a world in how the next world will be built, and in the next world there will be no goblinoids, as their role will be covered by a new kind of creatures?
Then the Dark One won't get any more soul, and maybe he'll slowly fade away...

I imagine there HAVE to be goblinoids in the next world. Otherwise, he'll start a fight, and there will be a new Snarl.

[Goblin_Priest]

1. We already know that souls from destroyed worlds still exist, because Hel's whole plan depends on getting these souls.
2. Gods get their power from their worshippers, ascended gods are ascended because of people who worship them
3. The Dark One's afterlife realm is full of goblinoid souls who worsip him.

Based on these evidence, there is no reason to believe that The Dark One's plan is gonna result in his self-destruction.

He's an ascended god. By default, he follows a different set of rules than the primordial pantheons.

Just how much those differ is anyone's guess, but it would be possible that ascended gods are tied to their iteration of creation.

Why would this make sense? Well, for one, it would account for the paradox of: if there are millions of creations, and this creation alone resulted in several ascended god, why aren't there millions of ascended gods out there?

[woweedd]

He's an ascended god. By default, he follows a different set of rules than the primordial pantheons.

Just how much those differ is anyone's guess, but it would be possible that ascended gods are tied to their iteration of creation.

Why would this make sense? Well, for one, it would account for the paradox of: if there are millions of creations, and this creation alone resulted in several ascended god, why aren't there millions of ascended gods out there?
Counter: we saw some of the ascended Gods vote for world destruction. Why would they ever do that, if it meant them ceasing to exist.

[dmc91356]

Counter to the counter, do we have any evidence that they have been made aware of all of the prior worlds? If not, they may have no clue that they are going to be trashed with the current world (if that, in fact, is what really happens). They may be voting on the ASSUMPTION that they will survive, with the "primordial" gods not bothering to disabuse them of that notion because of all the many, many times that such similar gods have been trashed in the past.

I think we just don't know enough as of strip 1139 to say for sure (not that such lack of knowledge has ever stopped this forum from collectively asserting a widely disparate set of theories as fact in the past . . . )

[woweedd]

Counter to the counter, do we have any evidence that they have been made aware of all of the prior worlds? If not, they may have no clue that they are going to be trashed with the current world (if that, in fact, is what really happens). They may be voting on the ASSUMPTION that they will survive, with the "primordial" gods not bothering to disabuse them of that notion because of all the many, many times that such similar gods have been trashed in the past.

I think we just don't know enough as of strip 1139 to say for sure (not that such lack of knowledge has ever stopped this forum from collectively asserting a widely disparate set of theories as fact in the past . . . )
Not only would that be a major **** move, that i'm fairly certain none of the Good gods (and very few of the Neutral) would stand for, but the ascended Gods would probably outright riot when they found out.

[Peelee]

Counter: we saw some of the ascended Gods vote for world destruction. Why would they ever do that, if it meant them ceasing to exist.

Refresh my memory, which ascended gods voted for world destruction?

[Ruck]

Refresh my memory, which ascended gods voted for world destruction?

None that I remember-- I think that statement is an extrapolation from the Western Pantheon, which counts ascended gods among its number, voting yes.

[Rrmcklin]

I also have to agree that I find "The original gods just didn't tell them they'd die along with the world" not particularly convincing.

[WindStruck]

There's probably a perfectly reasonable explanation for the old gods not telling the new gods any of the bad news. They don't want anyone rocking the boat.

[Peelee]

None that I remember-- I think that statement is an extrapolation from the Western Pantheon, which counts ascended gods among its number, voting yes.

Indeed. Which means the ascended Elven gods could know the deal, have voted against, and been outvoted. Among other possibilities.

Just my way of arguing against "I find that unconvincing based on things that i imagine happened in the specific way that makes that unconvincing."

[Rrmcklin]

Indeed. Which means the ascended Elven gods could know the deal, have voted against, and been outvoted. Among other possibilities.

Just my way of arguing against "I find that unconvincing based on things that i imagine happened in the specific way that makes that unconvincing."

I don't think this was directed specifically at me, but I'll still say I agree. I'm aware that the Western Pantheon can simply out vote the Elven Gods, or even that some Elven Gods might consider it a noble sacrifice.

That there would be possible explanations for that is not what I find strange/annoying.

[Rrmcklin]

There's probably a perfectly reasonable explanation for the old gods not telling the new gods any of the bad news. They don't want anyone rocking the boat.

Rocking the boat how? The decision to let any newly ascended gods survive is entirely in their hands. And if the Old Gods view the destruction of the world inevitable (and at this point I'd be shocked if most of them didn't), and also know that any ascending mortal Gods will die along side it, what will that change?

"Rock the boats" would imply the new gods would actually be able to affect things in a meaningful way on their own, and in this scenario of them coming and going with the world they were risen from, that would seem to me to incredibly unlikely.

[Peelee]

I don't think this was directed specifically at me, but I'll still say I agree. I'm aware that the Western Pantheon can simply out vote the Elven Gods, or even that some Elven Gods might consider it a noble sacrifice.

That there would be possible explanations for that is not what I find strange/annoying.

No, not directly at you. Directly at this:
Counter: we saw some of the ascended Gods vote for world destruction. Why would they ever do that, if it meant them ceasing to exist.

[Draconi Redfir]

I also have to agree that I find "The original gods just didn't tell them they'd die along with the world" not particularly convincing.

i could see it, even the good gods. We've seen the Gods unanimously agree to not tell people important information already, they don't tell people about the snarl or the rifts, and do what they can to remove or reduce information about it.

i mean it's not like they're LYING to the ascended god's, they're just withholding information the ascended god's aren't aware exists.

it's probably easier for the primal gods that way, less pain of watching former colleagues beg to be spared, or lash out in outrage.

[Tsukikira]

I don't believe the gods created in this world die with this world. However, I do note that some of the Gods that voted for the world's destruction note that there is the risk of death should they not destroy the world proactively, and therefore I'm inclined to believe that in the worlds that create more gods, there is likely gods lost in each iteration, whether because they are new in fighting the Snarl or because they are unfortunate. We presume information about the gods mostly from the current set, or the 'survivors' - but there's nothing that says the pantheons have not changed in the slightest over multiple world iterations. It seems Thor and Marduk (And likely Odin) have been around a long time, but nothing says the others are as old.

That is also presuming that the oldest worlds didn't last that long anyways.

[Draconi Redfir]

I don't believe the gods created in this world die with this world. However, I do note that some of the Gods that voted for the world's destruction note that there is the risk of death should they not destroy the world proactively, and therefore I'm inclined to believe that in the worlds that create more gods, there is likely gods lost in each iteration, whether because they are new in fighting the Snarl or because they are unfortunate. We presume information about the gods mostly from the current set, or the 'survivors' - but there's nothing that says the pantheons have not changed in the slightest over multiple world iterations. It seems Thor and Marduk (And likely Odin) have been around a long time, but nothing says the others are as old.

That is also presuming that the oldest worlds didn't last that long anyways.

that's a good point that i didn't think of actually. Some of what we call the "primal gods" might not be so. Could be that say, Freya is an ascended from one hundred worlds ago, and is just "Primal" in that she existed before the current one.

[WindStruck]

Rocking the boat how? The decision to let any newly ascended gods survive is entirely in their hands. And if the Old Gods view the destruction of the world inevitable (and at this point I'd be shocked if most of them didn't), and also know that any ascending mortal Gods will die along side it, what will that change?

"Rock the boats" would imply the new gods would actually be able to affect things in a meaningful way on their own, and in this scenario of them coming and going with the world they were risen from, that would seem to me to incredibly unlikely.

The Dark One's plan in itself seems like it's been affecting things in a major way. :smallwink:

And could the ascended gods also not start fights and, not realizing the consequences, make another snarl arise?

[woweedd]

Refresh my memory, which ascended gods voted for world destruction?
Thrym, Sutur, Dvalin (sorta), Sigrun...

(And before you ask, no, we don't actually KNOW they're Ascended, except Dvalin, but, given that they're addressed not as "God" or "Demigod" of anything, but "Lord" and Queen", i'm guessing that, like Dvalin, that was the titles they held in life.)

[DeliaP]

Counter: we saw some of the ascended Gods vote for world destruction. Why would they ever do that, if it meant them ceasing to exist.


Refresh my memory, which ascended gods voted for world destruction?

(EDIT: Ninja'd by Woweedd... )

I took Woweedd to mean that Thrym and Surtur, who are both deities of specific races, might be ascended gods. As all ascended gods we know of are deities of specific races (Elven subpantheon, Dvalin, TDO). And it seems a bit weird there would specifically be Original Gods for just Frost and Fire Giants otherwise (apart from the fact that Thrym and Surtur are from the real world Norse beliefs).

That's also been raised as a possibility in the context of why Hel needs to explain stuff to Thrym in Panel 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html) - unless Thrym wasn't around in the last world. Of course, that interpretation is at odds with what Thrym says in Panel 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html), although it doesn't mean that Thrym is not an ascended Frost Giant, just that if he is then he probably ascended in an earlier world as he knew what Hel looked like in the past.

(For the sake of accuracy, Thrym could have meant that Hel has looked that way throughout the history of this world, so probably isn't wasting away over the course of time in this world)

Wow, doesn't it take a long time to make a point if we try and be accurate and fair to all sides? :smallsmile:

Actually the really interesting thing is that what Hel says in Panel 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html) really really ought to have tipped us off that OotS-world couldn't possibly be World 2.0, as there is simply no way that her description of the last world is compatible with what we believed we knew about how fast the Snarl destroyed World 1.0.

And another thing: if Tiamat and Fenrir (and also possibly Thrym and Surtur) are Original Gods, then it is seems almost* completely certain that every world created has included in it's creation "Dragons!" and "Monsters!" (and also possibly "Frost Giants!" and "Fire Giants!") which makes any attempts to create Sci-Fi or Supers worlds look a little different....

* Because this is OotS forums and someone will find a way to dispute this, I'm sure.

[hroþila]

Thrym, Sutur, Dvalin (sorta), Sigrun...

(And before you ask, no, we don't actually KNOW they're Ascended, except Dvalin, but, given that they're addressed not as "God" or "Demigod" of anything, but "Lord" and Queen", i'm guessing that, like Dvalin, that was the titles they held in life.)
Sigrun is "Queen of the Valkyries". Are valkyries a thing in D&D 3.5? Like, a type of outsider or something like that? Even if they're not, it is plausible that that's what they are in OotS. If so, it would make sense that Sigrun was a valkyrie herself and thus an ascended goddess. No proof, of course, but still.

[DeliaP]

...Dvalin (sorta),...

Dvalin's attitude is so lawful stupid that it hurts.

Given that he's prepared to pass the decision to the council rather than go:

"You know what, given that in this case the option is to send every single current dwarven soul to Hel, I'm gonna introduce a new clause in my agreement with the Dwarven council so that this time I can just say No! "

"Because, hey, I have now become privy to really really important knowledge that I did not have when I made that pledge, that clearly nullifies the understanding on which that pledge was based."

And Hel is counting on him to actually vote Yes if the Dwarven council says so because they have been dominated by Hel's own vampire clergy... then it's entirely possible he'd also knowingly vote for his own annihilation if that's what keeping his word requires.

[DeliaP]

Yeah, I'm replying to myself.... but I just thought....

And another thing: if Tiamat and Fenrir (and also possibly Thrym and Surtur) are Original Gods, then it is seems almost* completely certain that every world created has included in it's creation "Dragons!" and "Monsters!" (and also possibly "Frost Giants!" and "Fire Giants!") which makes any attempts to create Sci-Fi or Supers worlds look a little different....

Tiamat: OK, my turn? Dragons!

Marduk: Uh, but I though we agreed we were going to try a Hard Science SciFi world this time?

Tiamat: I'm the goddess of frickin' dragons, what do you expect me to do? My turn! Dragons!

Marduk: <Sigh> OK, we'll find a way to make Hard Science Dragons... OK, who's next? Northern Gods, Odin?

Odin: Magic!

[hamishspence]

Sigrun is "Queen of the Valkyries". Are valkyries a thing in D&D 3.5? Like, a type of outsider or something like that? Even if they're not, it is plausible that that's what they are in OotS.

D&D has two versions of Valkyries. One is in Deities & Demigods - where they are rank 0 deities - "quasi-deities" - that look pretty human.


The other is in Book of Nine Swords - where they are less powerful, but have wings, glowing eyes, and hooves:

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/tob_gallery/99720.jpg

[hroþila]

D&D has two versions of Valkyries. One is in Deities & Demigods - where they are rank 0 deities - "quasi-deities" - that look pretty human.


The other is in Book of Nine Swords - where they are less powerful, but have wings, glowing eyes, and hooves:

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/tob_gallery/99720.jpg
Thanks! Hmm, so I'm not sure about the implications of this. Would you say this supports the idea of Sigrun being an ascended demigoddess? Or is it simply too out there to make any meaningful connections?

[Peelee]

Thrym, Sutur, Dvalin (sorta), Sigrun...

(And before you ask, no, we don't actually KNOW they're Ascended, except Dvalin, but, given that they're addressed not as "God" or "Demigod" of anything, but "Lord" and Queen", i'm guessing that, like Dvalin, that was the titles they held in life.)

So Lord Odin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html) is also ascended?

[Emanick]

So Lord Odin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html) is also ascended?

To be fair, "Lord" could just mean "chief of a particular group," which in most cases would mean the races that they are in charge of - presumably, in most or all cases, the races they ascended from. Odin is a special case, as he's the head of the pantheon, so he is "in charge of" the gods, rather than a mere mortal race.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

To be fair, "Lord" could just mean "chief of a particular group," which in most cases would mean the races that they are in charge of - presumably, in most or all cases, the races they ascended from. Odin is a special case, as he's the head of the pantheon, so he is "in charge of" the gods, rather than a mere mortal race.

Yes, that's what Lord usually means, when it's not just a polite word to use when addressing someone in general, even if they aren't technically in charge of anyone. Therefore, basing "which gods are ascended" rules on the honorific is quite suspect.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

To be fair, "Lord" being used as a honorific might not be necessarily the same as it being used as a formal title: "Lord Odin" vs "Thrym, Lord of Frost Giants". For example, V calls Roy "Sir Greenhilt" out of respect and courtesy, but Roy is not a "sir" in the strict sense of being a knight, unlike Sir François (probably). It is a dead end, there's no way to prove anything one way or the other, but I think it's a distinction that makes the theory reasonable if that's anyone's subjective impression.

[Peelee]

Hel seems to believe that if her plan works, she will be Queen of the Northern Pantheon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html). So I think the "formal titles" argument is also a bit suspect, since it appears they can just confer titles on themselves. After all, I don't see anyone referring to Odin as King of the Northern Pantheon.

[Rrmcklin]

The Dark One's plan in itself seems like it's been affecting things in a major way. :smallwink:

And could the ascended gods also not start fights and, not realizing the consequences, make another snarl arise?

And they could have destroyed the Dark One. And he's also not apart of this deliberation to the destroy the world or not which, in this scenario, would also be tantamount to executing him.

The Dark One's issues have nothing to do with what does or doesn't happen to gods like him after their home world is destroyed.

And as for you question, I'd assume, no , they can't. The Snarl was created while they were trying to make a new world. I don't think it's fair ot assume that any disagreements between them automatically creates one.

[WindStruck]

Yeah, I'm replying to myself.... but I just thought....

Tiamat: OK, my turn? Dragons!

Marduk: Uh, but I though we agreed we were going to try a Hard Science SciFi world this time?

Tiamat: I'm the goddess of frickin' dragons, what do you expect me to do? My turn! Dragons!

Marduk: <Sigh> OK, we'll find a way to make Hard Science Dragons... OK, who's next? Northern Gods, Odin?

Odin: Magic!

We could have magi-tech-wielding space dragons?

[Goblin_Priest]

We could have magi-tech-wielding space dragons?

Sounds like D20 Future.

[Deliverance]

And another thing: if Tiamat and Fenrir (and also possibly Thrym and Surtur) are Original Gods, then it is seems almost* completely certain that every world created has included in it's creation "Dragons!" and "Monsters!" (and also possibly "Frost Giants!" and "Fire Giants!") which makes any attempts to create Sci-Fi or Supers worlds look a little different....

Hey, my favourite frost giants are those from L.E. Modesitt's SF Timediver series and as for SF dragons, it is hard to top Anne McCaffrey's Dragonrideres of Pern series.

Ah, there's a new comic up, #1040. I love how Thor explains the current world as scraping the barrel for ideas. :smallbiggrin:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Billions seems a bit much.

Durkon disagrees with you.

Grey Wolf

[Goblin_Priest]

Ah, there's a new comic up, #1040. I love how Thor explains the current world as scraping the barrel for ideas. :smallbiggrin:

Especially given the other ideas he mentions and praised. ;)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I am going to tentatively advance the hypothesis that the self-aware portion of the OotS basis is the one that might have caused gods to ascend in this world were it didn't in others.

I still don't think much of their chances to survive the end of the cycle, regardless: I think they need living worshipers to maintain belief for their continued existence. Dead souls don't cut it, because they are now batteries, not true sources of belief. Headcanon, though.

Grey Wolf

[Leirus]

So after 1140 I think ascended gods die shortly after their worlds do. I do not see how they could keep getting sustent of their followers if the followers themselves are so different between worlds. The prime gods like Thor can change with each world -at some point Thor was not seen as a stick-figure, and maybe not even as a viking-, but I do not see an ascended god doing that. So my final opinion would be, the ascended gods live on until the souls of their original worlds run out of power. This sort of explains why ascended gods vote for destruction, as it would actually benefit their lifespan. And certainly, save the souls of their followers.

[hroþila]

So after 1140 I think ascended gods die shortly after their worlds do. I do not see how they could keep getting sustent of their followers if the followers themselves are so different between worlds. The prime gods like Thor can change with each world -at some point Thor was not seen as a stick-figure, and maybe not even as a viking-, but I do not see an ascended god doing that. So my final opinion would be, the ascended gods live on until the souls of their original worlds run out of power. This sort of explains why ascended gods vote for destruction, as it would actually benefit their lifespan. And certainly, save the souls of their followers.
All you need is the souls, everything else is just window dressing, and I would imagine the souls are similar, or even exactly the same. Personally, I have no trouble seeing an ascended god doing exactly that. Being able to change how you manifest externally without changing your fundamental being is a super common trait in deities of different mythologies, after all, so if ascended gods aren't able to do it I'd question whether they've achieved godhood at all.

[KorvinStarmast]

Being able to change how you manifest externally without changing your fundamental being is a super common trait in deities of different mythologies ... and it's how Zeus got into a lot of his affairs. Maybe that's why the Eastern Pantheon got waxed by the Snarl: they died for Zeus' various lecheries/sins.

(Hmm, and maybe I need to be careful, perhaps a bit of moralizing?)

[Rrmcklin]

So after 1140 I think ascended gods die shortly after their worlds do. I do not see how they could keep getting sustent of their followers if the followers themselves are so different between worlds. The prime gods like Thor can change with each world -at some point Thor was not seen as a stick-figure, and maybe not even as a viking-, but I do not see an ascended god doing that. So my final opinion would be, the ascended gods live on until the souls of their original worlds run out of power. This sort of explains why ascended gods vote for destruction, as it would actually benefit their lifespan. And certainly, save the souls of their followers.


All you need is the souls, everything else is just window dressing, and I would imagine the souls are similar, or even exactly the same. Personally, I have no trouble seeing an ascended god doing exactly that. Being able to change how you manifest externally without changing your fundamental being is a super common trait in deities of different mythologies, after all, so if ascended gods aren't able to do it I'd question whether they've achieved godhood at all.

What hroþila said. A lot of sentiments like they above seem to be implicitly assuming the ascended gods aren't "real" gods with all the powers the original gods have, simply because of their origins. We've been given no indication that's actually the case though.

[Leirus]

All you need is the souls, everything else is just window dressing, and I would imagine the souls are similar, or even exactly the same. Personally, I have no trouble seeing an ascended god doing exactly that. Being able to change how you manifest externally without changing your fundamental being is a super common trait in deities of different mythologies, after all, so if ascended gods aren't able to do it I'd question whether they've achieved godhood at all.

This is head canon, buit I think indeed ascended godhood is not like goodhod. I think only the prime gods get to plan every new world, and change themselves according to the setting. If every iteration in billions of worlds got to generate new permanent gods, even assuming that not every one does, the Snarl would have grown like kuzdu. (The plant, not the kid). Then again, this is fully head canon at the moment.

[Rrmcklin]

This is head canon, buit I think indeed ascended godhood is not like goodhod. I think only the prime gods get to plan every new world, and change themselves according to the setting. If every iteration in billions of worlds got to generate new permanent gods, even assuming that not every one does, the Snarl would have grown like kuzdu. (The plant, not the kid). Then again, this is fully head canon at the moment.

There's been no mention of the Snarl growing from "eating" the gods and souls, at all.

[woweedd]

... and it's how Zeus got into a lot of his affairs. Maybe that's why the Eastern Pantheon got waxed by the Snarl: they died for Zeus' various lecheries/sins.

(Hmm, and maybe I need to be careful, perhaps a bit of moralizing?)
Considering The Snarl's alignment appears to be Chaotic Hungry...I doubt it was making any considerations as to morals.

There's been no mention of the Snarl growing from "eating" the gods and souls, at all.
Well, no, but it's made of divine energy, and acquiring energy is literally why eating exists, so I assume it's getting SOMETHING out of it. Otherwise, why do it?

[Rrmcklin]

Considering The Snarl's alignment appears to be Chaotic Hungry...I doubt it was making any considerations as to morals.

Well, no, but it's made of divine energy, and acquiring energy is literally why eating exists, so I assume it's getting SOMETHING out of it. Otherwise, why do it?

Why does there need to be a "why"? You say that as if to begin with the Snarl has been presented as creature capable of reasoning.

[Leirus]

There's been no mention of the Snarl growing from "eating" the gods and souls, at all.

No, I did not mean that at all. The Snarl was created when the Gods were unable to agree on the creation of the first world. To avoid that, they now have a very strict set of rules in their dealings. But imagine if every time they have to create a world there are ten new gods with the same vote.

[woweedd]

Why does there need to be a "why"? You say that as if the Snarl specifically needs a reason to act.
Even if it's made of Chaos, it still has enough sapience to kill things, without any outside force making it. Therefore, i'm assuming it has SOME form of intellect, even if it's of a type akin to that of a concussed-moose.

[Rrmcklin]

No, I did not mean that at all. The Snarl was created when the Gods were unable to agree on the creation of the first world. To avoid that, they now have a very strict set of rules in their dealings. But imagine if every time they have to create a world there are ten new gods with the same vote.

What point are you trying to make, I honestly can't tell. If there are more gods who feel aligned that just makes things easier. Though you're assuming a common origin as mortals somehow means they're more likely to agree on things. That should not be taken as a given; it certainly wasn't true for the original gods.

[hroþila]

If every iteration in billions of worlds got to generate new permanent gods, even assuming that not every one does
Well, that's the crux of the issue and the centre of this discussion. We don't know of many ascended gods. Is that because there's few of them? And if the answer is yes, is that because they die off, or because worlds that produce ascended gods are extremely rare (or even unique)? We simply cannot know at this point, so better not to use it as the foundation for new theories unless you don't mind them wobbling like crazy.

[Rrmcklin]

For all we know the same thing that makes Thor think this world could be special could also be the reason this world is one of (or the only one?) to have mortals rise to godhood.

I still imagine it's just not likely to be important to the story, though.

[Leirus]

What point are you trying to make, I honestly can't tell. If there are more gods who feel aligned that just makes things easier. Though you're assuming a common origin as mortals somehow means they're more likely to agree on things. That should not be taken as a given; it certainly wasn't true for the original gods.

Well, the point is quite easy. If every time a world gets destroyed new gods get a say in how the new world is going to be, by now a huge comitee would be creating the worlds. Seems impractical, seems the kind of situation where you would be feeding the Snarl with divine disagreement more than actually creating new worlds.

[Rrmcklin]

Well, the point is quite easy. If every time a world gets destroyed new gods get a say in how the new world is going to be, by now a huge committee would be creating the worlds. Seems impractical, seems the kind of situation where you would be feeding the Snarl with divine disagreement more than actually creating new worlds.

And, again, that assumes there would be tons of new gods to begin with. That's the part I think you're missing.

There are potential explanations for why there aren't a billion gods besides "ascended mortals die soon after their world does." If you're not acknowledging that, we can't really discuss things properly.

Because the fact of the matter is, no, we have not established the conditions for your hypothetical even exist yet. It could be, or it could not be. This latest strip doesn't actually say anything on the matter either way.

[Leirus]

And, again, that assumes there would be tons of new gods to begin with. That's the part I think you're missing.

There are potential explanations for why there aren't a billion gods besides "ascended mortals die soon after their world does." If you're not acknowledging that, we can't really discuss things properly.

Because the fact of the matter is, no, we have not established the conditions for your hypothetical even exist yet. It could be, or it could not be. This latest strip doesn't actually say anything on the matter either way.

The last strip did stablish that there are billions of worlds, not merely thousands. And I did aknowledge that. That is why I said, twice, "this is my head canon". This is how I understand the information I have been given. I freely admit that I am making the assumption that ascending to goodhod is not all that rare, because it is a known D&D mechanic, and all the worlds seem to be settings. If you do not agree with that it is ok, but I think you would agree that my proposal is well within the realm of possibility at this point.

[Emanick]

The last strip did stablish that there are billions of worlds, not merely thousands. And I did aknowledge that. That is why I said, twice, "this is my head canon". This is how I understand the information I have been given. I freely admit that I am making the assumption that ascending to goodhod is not all that rare, because it is a known D&D mechanic, and all the worlds seem to be settings. If you do not agree with that it is ok, but I think you would agree that my proposal is well within the realm of possibility at this point.

It didn't establish that there are billions of worlds, only that Durkon has no idea how many there are, at least not any more than we do. He thinks there are "Millions! Mebbe billions! More'n can be counted!" Clearly he thinks there are "at least" millions, but, like most people, he's evidently unable to make an accurate estimate when faced with such a large number of objects.

[Synesthesy]

AS of 1140, maybe Elven Gods did ascend to godhood during this world. If settings changed so much, they surely didn't born during the cyber world with talking animals.

But still, I won't think that this is the only universe with ascended gods until I see it with my eyes (and I hope there will be a good explanation if it'll be this way); instead, I think that is clear that Laser Snails' God is nowhere to see in a world without lasers and intelligent snail (templates excluded).

[thereaper]

Well, that's the crux of the issue and the centre of this discussion. We don't know of many ascended gods. Is that because there's few of them? And if the answer is yes, is that because they die off, or because worlds that produce ascended gods are extremely rare (or even unique)? We simply cannot know at this point, so better not to use it as the foundation for new theories unless you don't mind them wobbling like crazy.

And, again, we have no way of knowing which of the current deities may or may not be ascended.

[woweedd]

And, again, we have no way of knowing which of the current deities may or may not be ascended.
I mean, most of them come from real-world mythologies, and tend to be really inter-locked.

[Kish]

I mean, most of them come from real-world mythologies, and tend to be really inter-locked.
How do you tell the difference, from anything that's been presented, between "there have always been dragons and gods related to dragons" and "actually, Dragon and Tiamat came into existence two worlds ago"?

(Answer without referencing any alternate names or forms for Marduk, unless you can prove that those alternate names and forms 1) apply to the OotS universe at all, and 2) are as old as Marduk is there.)

[woweedd]

How do you tell the difference, from anything that's been presented, between "there have always been dragons and gods related to dragons" and "actually, Dragon and Tiamat came into existence two worlds ago"?

(Answer without referencing any alternate names or forms for Marduk, unless you can prove that those alternate names and forms 1) apply to the OotS universe at all, and 2) are as old as Marduk is there.)
Who are you talking to?

[MartianInvader]

So as of 1040, we now know that this world is special enough to present some kind of specific, once-in-an-eternity opportunity. Maybe that "special"-ness allowed this one world (and only this world) to ascend mortals to Godhood.

[Peelee]

I am going to tentatively advance the hypothesis that the self-aware portion of the OotS basis is the one that might have caused gods to ascend in this world were it didn't in others.

I still don't think much of their chances to survive the end of the cycle, regardless: I think they need living worshipers to maintain belief for their continued existence. Dead souls don't cut it, because they are now batteries, not true sources of belief. Headcanon, though.

Grey Wolf

I was about to take the rare chance to disagree with you here, but there's one thing that stayed my hand; Dvalin, First King of the Dwarves. He has to be from this world, or the dwarves would know the many-worlds thing (I also assume that it's not a 'the elites know but never share with the proletariat' deal as well. Just an assumption, but still). And the lack of any other First King or similar demigod, form all the races of all the worlds, heavily indicates that demigods at the very least are likely not to survive if the world doesn't.

[Emanick]

I was about to take the rare chance to disagree with you here, but there's one thing that stayed my hand; Dvalin, First King of the Dwarves. He has to be from this world, or the dwarves would know the many-worlds thing (I also assume that it's not a 'the elites know but never share with the proletariat' deal as well. Just an assumption, but still). And the lack of any other First King or similar demigod, form all the races of all the worlds, heavily indicates that demigods at the very least are likely not to survive if the world doesn't.

I wouldn’t assume this is the case. Dwarven historians might know that this is not the first world the gods have made, or at least they might see Dvalin as “older than recorded history,” or as the First Ancestral King of the Dwarves, whose origin has been lost to time.

I mean, let’s assume for a moment that Dvalin is, in fact, from a previous world. Does any of his dialogue cease to make sense, or does anything else in the story? Not a rhetorical question - I’m genuinely asking, since I’m on my phone right now and don’t really want to try and check the archives on it.

Mind you, if I had to place money on which world Dvalin was from, I’d pick this one, and not just because it’s the only one we know much about. But I also like the idea that The Dark One is the only god who arose from this world, as it’s simpler and more elegant to assume a cosmology where this world isn’t unique in most ways, including its potential for producing demigods, and in which we also don’t need to posit the existence of some kind of Ascended God-killing mechanism that cranks into motion at the end of every world.

[Kish]

Who are you talking to?
You. Clearer now?

For the "tend to be really inter-locked" part, that is; we may need to disagree on the significance of the "real-world mythologies" part, because I'm not seeing at all why that would point to a Greek-based god being original rather than ascended in OotS.

[woweedd]

You. Clearer now?

For the "tend to be really inter-locked" part, that is; we may need to disagree on the significance of the "real-world mythologies" part, because I'm not seeing at all why that would point to a Greek-based god being original rather than ascended in OotS.
Eh, that's fair.

[DeliaP]

And, again, we have no way of knowing which of the current deities may or may not be ascended.


I mean, most of them come from real-world mythologies, and tend to be really inter-locked.


How do you tell the difference, from anything that's been presented, between "there have always been dragons and gods related to dragons" and "actually, Dragon and Tiamat came into existence two worlds ago"?

(Answer without referencing any alternate names or forms for Marduk, unless you can prove that those alternate names and forms 1) apply to the OotS universe at all, and 2) are as old as Marduk is there.)

Depends how reliable you think the Crayons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html) of Time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) are.

It's certainly possible the Crayons are unreliable, don't tell the whole story, or tell the story "from a certain point of view" and that it's just depicted that way to fit the understanding that the characters would have at the time.

I think the Giant has commented on how much credence we should put in the Crayons. I don't recall the exact words, but it didn't make me think that I should be doubting that Odin, Thor, Loki, Marduk, Tiamat, Zeus, Ares, Dragon, Tiger, Rooster, Dog, Pig or Monkey were actually present at the creation of the Snarl.

(Just to be clear: I'm more responding to thereaper than Kish, but thought it was still relevant)

[Kish]

Depends how reliable you think the Crayons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html) of Time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) are.
Given that they explicitly say the current world is the second one and that the Snarl has not yet escaped from a world created to imprison it, I'm more than a little thrown that that question, and the attendant implication that there's the slightest chance they do tell the whole story, is being posted after strip #1139.

[Rrmcklin]

Given that they explicitly say the current world is the second one and that the Snarl has not yet escaped from a world created to imprison it, I'm more than a little thrown that that question, and the attendant implication that there's the slightest chance they do tell the whole story, is being posted after strip #1139.

From what I can tell, they didn't explicitly say this world was the second world (at least not those two linked). Just that the Gods came together to make a new world in peace.

Which still obviously means we weren't told everything.

[Kish]

Yes, it requires clicking the forward button once from the second link there to get to #275 where it talks about them creating the second world, the Snarl not being able to break free on its own, and it lasting for a thousand years and more.

[DeliaP]

Given that they explicitly say the current world is the second one and that the Snarl has not yet escaped from a world created to imprison it, I'm more than a little thrown that that question, and the attendant implication that there's the slightest chance they do tell the whole story, is being posted after strip #1139.

Clearly the Crayons aren't telling the whole story. There's obviously a lot left out around about here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), in what Shojo is saying. And clearly we do not know everything we ought to (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) about the Snarl.

But I guess there's a limit to how much rug-pulling I'm expecting at this point. I mean, it's possible we next discover that none of the existing gods are original, all have ascended recently, the mortality rate of gods during world-uncreation is quite high, and they are carrying on a Snarl-trapping program handed down to them through thousands of generations of short-lived but overlapping pantheons. (And Thor is outright lying to Durkon about him and Marduk being present at World 1.0).

There's clearly no way of proving that's not true beyond Word of Giant. But just because the Crayons are not completely trustworthy does not mean we must treat them as completely unreliable. So, I still consider them as at least plausible evidence that the gods directly depicted were actually Original Gods, unless some evidence is presented against that.

[Synesthesy]

I was about to take the rare chance to disagree with you here, but there's one thing that stayed my hand; Dvalin, First King of the Dwarves. He has to be from this world, or the dwarves would know the many-worlds thing (I also assume that it's not a 'the elites know but never share with the proletariat' deal as well. Just an assumption, but still). And the lack of any other First King or similar demigod, form all the races of all the worlds, heavily indicates that demigods at the very least are likely not to survive if the world doesn't.

But we didn't see every demigods, only who wanted to vote. The high priests say that they didn't even expect them to be so many, so there clearly exist others somewhere. What if there is a first king of laser snail that doesn't care about a world without lasers? We can't know for sure....

[woweedd]

But we didn't see every demigods, only who wanted to vote. The high priests say that they didn't even expect them to be so many, so there clearly exist others somewhere. What if there is a first king of laser snail that doesn't care about a world without lasers? We can't know for sure....
It's possible that was all of hem. They just said they've never seen so many show up before. It's entirely possible that's all the demigods their pantheon has.

[DeliaP]

But we didn't see every demigods, only who wanted to vote. The high priests say that they didn't even expect them to be so many, so there clearly exist others somewhere. What if there is a first king of laser snail that doesn't care about a world without lasers? We can't know for sure....

Actually, that's not a bad idea, consistency wise. Suppose that Ascended Gods all become demi-gods. But world creation is strictly held onto by the Original Gods. So if the Original Gods choose to create a world with talking ponies, then Faust the Demi-Goddess of Talking Ponies gets to play this time around. And if the Original Gods don't make a world with tribbles, then Gene the Demi-God of Tribbles has to float around in the outer planes with nothing to do until at least the next world comes along.

And lots of Ascended Gods have actually been created over time, it's just that for any given world, there are thousands of them that have no role to play, and they're sitting around in the outer planes playing Go Fish until the Original Gods calls one of them in.

In OotS world, someone in the Western Pantheon decided "Elves!", so the Elven demi-gods got called in, and Elves were created on the Western Continent.

The Dark One could have Ascended in previous world. It would mean he hasn't told Redcloak the whole truth - he doesn't get to decide on the creation of new worlds, so he's less powerful than he wants Redcloak to think. He's even more p***** off than we thought because everytime some Original God decides "Goblins!" they decided "Goblins! And they really suck and have no possessions and are just XP fodder!" or something like that. In fact, even if once in a while some Original God goes "Goblins! And this time they're equal and valued members of society!", TDO still didn't get a say in it and still can't ensure it will happen again next time (while Dragon and Tiamat ensure there are always "Dragons! And they're amongst the most powerful creatures in the world!") So when he's spotted the chance to control the Snarl and threaten the Original Gods with the one thing they fear, he takes it. And if it all goes wrong? Well, he still may not get to make the next world, but he's still no worse off as long as the Original Gods still want "Goblins! And they really suck and have no possessions and are just XP fodder!"

Dvalin could still be an Ascended God from an earlier world, because he's so lawful stupid he continues to insist upon upholding his oath to the Council of Clans from his original world and whenever there are "Dwarves!" he tells the dwarves to create a Council of Clans to tell him what to do. That does still leave a problem of how come the Council of Clans either (a) think he was the mortal First King of Dwarves even in their world, even though he never was or (b) know that he came from an earlier world or (c) whenever Dwarves are created, the Original God who created them has to go "Dwarves! And they are created believing in a false-past in which Dvalin was mortal and Ascended". (b) seems very unlikely, (c) seems unlikely because if that were the case, in at least several worlds, I'd have thought Loki or someone similar would go "Dwarves! and they don't have false memories!" just to screw with Dvalin's lawful stupidity for the lulz.

[Rrmcklin]

I get why it's happening, but I still feel the need to be pedantic and say we should stop calling the Dark One or Elven gods "demi-gods"; they haven't been called that, only Davlin has.

It seems to be getting close to equating "demi-god" with "ascended mortal god" and with a sample of one, that's just not supported.

[martianmister]

"Some those worlds, we saved...Others, we didn't." makes me think about the previous votes. Either some gods change their minds about it, or some newly ascended gods change the outcomes of these votes.

[DeliaP]

I get why it's happening, but I still feel the need to be pedantic and say we should stop calling the Dark One or Elven gods "demi-gods"; they haven't been called that, only Davlin has.

It seems to be getting close to equating "demi-god" with "ascended mortal god" and with a sample of one, that's just not supported.

Yes. Very much so. For myself, I'm quite happy to make the assumption that Ascended Gods are all Demi-Gods for the purposes of exploring some particular hypothesis, and it does have a certain logic to it. But we really don't have any evidence that it's the case.


"Some those worlds, we saved...Others, we didn't." makes me think about the previous votes. Either some gods change their minds about it, or some newly ascended gods change the outcomes of these votes.

Or sometimes the world had a really bad flaw they didn't realise, and when the rips started, they unravelled so fast the Gods didn't have time to call a Godsmoot.

But, yeah, if it's been just the same Gods voting everytime, over and over and over again, then by now it must be very, very predictable how close to catastrophe each God is willing to push their luck, and Hel's expectation of the vote being tied was much better informed than we realised.

[Doug Lampert]

Yes. Very much so. For myself, I'm quite happy to make the assumption that Ascended Gods are all Demi-Gods for the purposes of exploring some particular hypothesis, and it does have a certain logic to it. But we really don't have any evidence that it's the case.



Or sometimes the world had a really bad flaw they didn't realise, and when the rips started, they unravelled so fast the Gods didn't have time to call a Godsmoot.

But, yeah, if it's been just the same Gods voting everytime, over and over and over again, then by now it must be very, very predictable how close to catastrophe each God is willing to push their luck, and Hel's expectation of the vote being tied was much better informed than we realised.
I like the hypothesis.

If some notable X (the gates, ascension, epic casters, or whatever else you choose) is unique to this world, then the vote returns to being hard to predict; because this world being uniquely X is likely to make some god think it deserves a bit longer to see if X actually helps all that much. Which in turn makes the failure to mention X at the god's moot difficult to explain (not impossible, "We covered this back when the scribblers were making the gates" might well mean no one brings it up again).

But, divine ascension APPEARS to be frequent in this world (between two and lots); there appear to have been many millions of worlds; and we have a reason to think divine ascension is not all that notably more common in this world, in that no one took note of it.

Ascended deities not surviving their world would explain the above, but so would the idea that most or all of the ascended in this world are actually from past worlds, and only become active when appropriate and then pretend to be from the current world (arranging for everyone to think they are from the current world should be possible for a god, just make the dwarves with a king called Dvalin, and when he dies claim to be him but ascended).

[Deliverance]

I wouldn’t assume this is the case. Dwarven historians might know that this is not the first world the gods have made, or at least they might see Dvalin as “older than recorded history,” or as the First Ancestral King of the Dwarves, whose origin has been lost to time.

I mean, let’s assume for a moment that Dvalin is, in fact, from a previous world. Does any of his dialogue cease to make sense, or does anything else in the story? Not a rhetorical question - I’m genuinely asking, since I’m on my phone right now and don’t really want to try and check the archives on it.

Some of his dialogue makes little sense if he's from a previous world. It doesn't rule it out, but it requires slightly tortured logic for his statements regarding his ascension to refer to a previous world.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html

"I must consult the dwarven Council of Clans before coming to a decision" and "When I was a mortal, I swore to obey the will of the Council on issues affecting all the clans. That promise still stands despite my subsequent death and deification."

He swore that he would obey the will of an organization that is present in this world. For his death and deification to have taken place in a previous world and his words still make strict logical sense would require that organization to also have existed in that previous world. Which it did not. The council he wants to consult is a thing created by the dwarves in this world.

This is where one could get by with slightly tortured logic of "well, what if that previous world also had dwarves who organized in clans and had a council, they called the council of clans, and Dvalin sees the council in this world as a continuation of the other one, despite there being no continuity of organization due to everybody from the previous world being turned into mana batteries or eradicated by the Snarl? Perhaps the reason the dwarves are organized that way in this current world is because Dvalin made them do it? So he thinks his words is binding here, and that's good enough for me" - and there's absolutely nothing in the comic that can be used to disprove that line of thinking.

...though of course it would mean that the non-dwarf mortal representatives present at the Godsmoot would have a tale to tell were they ever to discuss Dvalin's divinity with dwarves, and the dwarf representatives at the council (such as Thor's high priestess he responded to) might suffer a crisis of faith hearing his words, since none of them would have been aware that Dvalin was once mortal and ascended as he didn't do that on this world, where he was always a demigod (and knowledge of the Snarl and previous worlds is secret to all that don't know of the Snarl), the most they would have known would be that Dvalin obeyed the Council of clans and always had done so. Again, nothing that a creative thinker can't get around, especially if not bound by conventional logic or willing to make extra assumptions that (surprise) leads to the desired conclusion, but it is very real work to do so.


I prefer taking the easy way out, which is assuming that in the absence of evidence to the contrary, Dvalin means exactly what his words imply: that the organization he consults with now is the one he swore to obey before his ascension, which means he was a mortal who ascended on this world.


-----------

On a related issue, the total number of demigods, this is all the information that comes to mind:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html

a) We don't know how many there are (to state the obvious)
b) The high priestess of Sif is surprised that seven turns up
c) The high priestess of Frigg responds that she has never before seen more than 3 show up
d) The high priest of Mani's response to that is that he didn't even know the northern pantheon had 7 demigods

Taken together, it suggests that either demigods of the northern pantheon are few and far between or, if not, that knowledge of them is scarce, and given that the three surprised people were all high priests of their gods and hence presumably well versed in religious matters, the former possibility, that northern pantheon demigods are few in number, seems to be more likely than the latter.

[woweedd]

Some of his dialogue makes little sense if he's from a previous world. It doesn't rule it out, but it requires slightly tortured logic for his statements regarding his ascension to refer to a previous world.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html

"I must consult the dwarven Council of Clans before coming to a decision" and "When I was a mortal, I swore to obey the will of the Council on issues affecting all the clans. That promise still stands despite my subsequent death and deification."

He swore that he would obey the will of an organization that is present in this world. For his death and deification to have taken place in a previous world and his words still make strict logical sense would require that organization to also have existed in that previous world. Which it did not. The council he wants to consult is a thing created by the dwarves in this world.

This is where one could get by with slightly tortured logic of "well, what if that previous world also had dwarves who organized in clans and had a council, they called the council of clans, and Dvalin sees the council in this world as a continuation of the other one, despite there being no continuity of organization due to everybody from the previous world being turned into mana batteries or eradicated by the Snarl? Perhaps the reason the dwarves are organized that way in this current world is because Dvalin made them do it? So he thinks his words is binding here, and that's good enough for me" - and there's absolutely nothing in the comic that can be used to disprove that line of thinking.

...though of course it would mean that the non-dwarf mortal representatives present at the Godsmoot would have a tale to tell were they ever to discuss Dvalin's divinity with dwarves, and the dwarf representatives at the council (such as Thor's high priestess he responded to) might suffer a crisis of faith hearing his words, since none of them would have been aware that Dvalin was once mortal and ascended as he didn't do that on this world, where he was always a demigod (and knowledge of the Snarl and previous worlds is secret to all that don't know of the Snarl), the most they would have known would be that Dvalin obeyed the Council of clans and always had done so. Again, nothing that a creative thinker can't get around, especially if not bound by conventional logic or willing to make extra assumptions that (surprise) leads to the desired conclusion, but it is very real work to do so.


I prefer taking the easy way out, which is assuming that in the absence of evidence to the contrary, Dvalin means exactly what his words imply: that the organization he consults with now is the one he swore to obey before his ascension, which means he was a mortal who ascended on this world.
I mean, granted, why are assuming that the Dwarves don't believe Dvalin to have ascended on this world? History is filled with ancient, mythic kings, who are elevated as historic Gods despite having probably never existed. Romulus and Remus, King Arthur, The Yellow Emperor, ETC.

[Peelee]

I mean, granted, why are assuming that the Dwarves don't believe Dvalin to have ascended on this world? History is filled with ancient, mythic kings, who are elevated as historic Gods despite having probably never existed. Romulus and Remus, King Arthur, The Yellow Emperor, ETC.

History doesn't have divination spells, for one.

[Deliverance]

I mean, granted, why are assuming that the Dwarves don't believe Dvalin to have ascended on this world? History is filled with ancient, mythic kings, who are elevated as historic Gods despite having probably never existed. Romulus and Remus, King Arthur, The Yellow Emperor, ETC.
Err, I am assuming that Dvalin ascended on this world, and that this is what dwarves believe too. Do I misunderstand your question? Perhaps you wanted to ask a different question?

[Jasder]

Another explanation for why other world might lack ascended mortals is time. Although there are loads of former worlds, it's also clear that a lot of them got destroyed pretty quickly. This is one of the ones that's lasted longer, so it would make sense for it to have more ascended mortals. Additionally, it could be that some the gods in each pantheon were originally ascended mortals, but that that distinction became less important after whatever world they ascended from. So, say Rat was an ascended mortal from the gritty world with talking animals, but as they've been around the entire existence of the order of the stick world, it doesn't really matter where they came from before, from the perspective of people within the stickverse. Whereas for ascended mortals from this world in particular, well, people knew them in life, and probably care more about their status as a 'new' god.

[woweedd]

Err, I am assuming that Dvalin ascended on this world, and that this is what dwarves believe too. Do I misunderstand your question? Perhaps you wanted to ask a different question?
No, what i'm saying is that just because THE DWARVES believe Dvalin ascended on this world doesn't necessarily mean he did. Not like anyone alive would be able to say firsthand, ya know?

[Peelee]

No, what i'm saying is that just because THE DWARVES believe Dvalin ascended on this world doesn't necessarily mean he did. Not like anyone alive would be able to say firsthand, ya know?

"Alive" is an odd descriptor in a world where talking to the dead is possible, though.

[Rrmcklin]

No, what i'm saying is that just because THE DWARVES believe Dvalin ascended on this world doesn't necessarily mean he did. Not like anyone alive would be able to say firsthand, ya know?

Maybe, but it would be a bit strange if he considered his oath to some past world somehow lasting into this one. I get dwarves are often Lawful Stupid but that seems like pushing it.

[woweedd]

"Alive" is an odd descriptor in a world where talking to the dead is possible, though.
Doesn't that spell have a time limit? Plus, you kinda need the corpse on hand.

[martianmister]

There is nothing that links ascended gods to demi-gods. Hermod is a son of Odin in the myths and he's a demi-god, the Dark One was a mortal and no one ever called him a demi-god before.

[Peelee]

Doesn't that spell have a time limit? Plus, you kinda need the corpse on hand.

Depending on how you do it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html), nope to both (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm).

[woweedd]

Depending on how you do it, nope to both (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html).
Fair, but Plane Shift is a pretty high-level spell, and, given that, by Qarr's word, Wizards above 10th level are rare...

[Peelee]

Fair, but Plane Shift is a pretty high-level spell, and, given that, by Qarr's word, Wizards above 10th level are rare...

True. Ten gold says almost all High Priests are double digit levels, though. Point is, there is absolutely access to such knowledge, and especially given that dwarves are a fairly long-lived race, I don't think there's enough generations between Dvalin and Durkon that the First King of the Dwarves would pass into myth.

[Emanick]

"Alive" is an odd descriptor in a world where talking to the dead is possible, though.

I don't know that there's a practical way of talking to the dead from thousands of years ago. Any dwarves alive at the dawn of the world have probably been soul-batteries for centuries, if not millennia.


Maybe, but it would be a bit strange if he considered his oath to some past world somehow lasting into this one. I get dwarves are often Lawful Stupid but that seems like pushing it.

"When I made that oath, I promised to never break it. And break it I shall never do! From world to world, as long as there are dwarves, I shall honor the wishes of their Council."

Sounds like Dvalin to me, syntax and accent (if he had one) aside.


True. Ten gold says almost all High Priests are double digit levels, though. Point is, there is absolutely access to such knowledge, and especially given that dwarves are a fairly long-lived race, I don't think there's enough generations between Dvalin and Durkon that the First King of the Dwarves would pass into myth.

This would have seemed like a better argument to me before the latest comic. Thor says that the gods are "up to a few thousand years each" in terms of planetary longevity, which suggests that the date, 1174 or whatever, (probably) has nothing to do with the age of the world. (Soon's dialogue that talks about "a thousand years and more" passing can likely be chalked up to Rich not yet having decided how old he wanted the world to be.) It's also possible that this planet developed rifts unusually early, of course, but that seems less likely to me.

Dwarven generations could be any length on average, since dwarves can live for, what, 300 years? 400 at most? I'm going to take a wild guess that they're about 80 years on average, though, since Durkon is in his fifties (IIRC) and seems to be of marriageable age.

That suggests that if the world is, say, 3,200 years old, the dwarves could be as many as 40 generations away from the birth of the planet. 40 human generations is about a millennium, maybe more. That's easily enough time for stories about kings to pass into myth, particularly in the violent sort of atmosphere that most of the OOTSverse seems to exist in.

[DeliaP]

"When I made that oath, I promised to never break it. And break it I shall never do! From world to world, as long as there are dwarves, I shall honor the wishes of their Council."

Sounds like Dvalin to me, syntax and accent (if he had one) aside.

That certainly does sound like a Dvalin - I still think his choosing to interpret his oath that way is pretty lawful stupid, given he explicitly states he made it when a mortal, and therefore in an entirely different context and state of knowledge.

But that's not really the problem. The problem is how he manages to keep the Oath in a newly created world, without revealing to the Dwarves that there were previous Worlds. If he tells them he is the Ascended-Formerly-Mortal First King and tells the Dwarves they need to set up a special Council to tell him what to do (a bit of a reversal on the usual Mortals-to-Gods relationship :smallsmile: ) because he's already sworn an Oath to such a Council, then he's kind of giving away that he wasn't from this newly created World because the newly created Dwarves will know that he wasn't the First King in this (new) world.

- He could tell the newly created Dwarves the truth, but instruct them they have to keep it a secret from subsequent generations, so the knowledge of previous worlds dies out.

- He could wait until a few generations had passed, and plant false stories about a mythical First King in the new World, and only then start up a priesthood worshipping him, and he also has to create a Council of Clans from scratch and get them to pretend that it's been around since the (mythical) First King.

- He could make sure there really is a mortal First King of Dwarves called Dvalin, who sets up a Council of Clans, and then when this-world-Dvalin dies, he could pretend to be this-world Dvalin as a newly Ascended God .

- He could insist the Dwarves are always created with false memories.

- Something else probably about as convoluted and deceptive.

Honestly, to me, none of these options sound remotely like something Dvalin would do (or at least if I extrapolate wildly on the basis of the very few things we know about him). So a much more plausible scenario seems to be:

- Dvalin is telling the truth, and has always told the truth to his Dwarves. So if they don't know that there were previous worlds, but do know that he is an Ascended-Formerly-Mortal God, then Dvalin really must have Ascended in this World.

unless some strong evidence to the contrary comes up.

There's actually a side issue I'm not sure about here: How much do the High Priests know about the Snarl and Past Worlds? Given that at least one Godsmoot has happened before in which the Gods have got together and discussed remaking the World because You-Know-Who might destroy them, how much info do the High Priests of the Gods get to remember about these discussions?

Loki referring to You-Know-Who might indicate the "Don't Mention the Snarl" rule is in place to prevent even the High Priests discovering about it, but all the same, given how much info the Gods have been holding back, there must by now have been a lot of Secret-Lore-Known-Only-To-High-Priests-And-Their-Bodyguards that has built up. Presumably at least part of the Godsmoot rules must involve ways to prevent that leaking out.

[Synesthesy]

I'm sorry, but I think that the argument "Dvalin have created a dwarven clan council always the same in an unknown number of world" just as believable as "Xykon is low epic, but have a magic item in is bony back that make him cast spell as if he was high epic".

Ok I understand that we don't have proves neither in one direction nor in another, but logic.... Well, logic is crying alone in the corner.

[DeliaP]

I'm sorry, but I think that the argument "Dvalin have created a dwarven clan council always the same in an unknown number of world" just as believable as "Xykon is low epic, but have a magic item in is bony back that make him cast spell as if he was high epic".

Ok I understand that we don't have proves neither in one direction nor in another, but logic.... Well, logic is crying alone in the corner.

Sure, but to be fair, if anyone had suggested prior to #1139 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html) that "hey, maybe this isn't World 2.0, maybe there's been like a brazillion worlds since the Snarl was created?" then quite a few people (myself included) would have completely dismissed the suggestion as Wild Mass Guessing with absolutely no in-comic evidence.

(And for that matter, a number of people suggested that the OotS would return to the Dwarven lands with a dead Durkon, and encounter Hilgya with Durkon's baby. And I was amongst those that dismissed such ideas as Wild Mass Guessing with absolutely no in-comic evidence).

But I still agree that this:



Dvalin is telling the truth, and has always told the truth to his Dwarves. So if they don't know that there were previous worlds, but do know that he is an Ascended-Formerly-Mortal God, then Dvalin really must have Ascended in this World.

is by far the most likely possibility, given the current evidence.

[Peelee]

I don't know that there's a practical way of talking to the dead from thousands of years ago. Any dwarves alive at the dawn of the world have probably been soul-batteries for centuries, if not millennia.



"When I made that oath, I promised to never break it. And break it I shall never do! From world to world, as long as there are dwarves, I shall honor the wishes of their Council."

Sounds like Dvalin to me, syntax and accent (if he had one) aside.



This would have seemed like a better argument to me before the latest comic. Thor says that the gods are "up to a few thousand years each" in terms of planetary longevity, which suggests that the date, 1174 or whatever, (probably) has nothing to do with the age of the world. (Soon's dialogue that talks about "a thousand years and more" passing can likely be chalked up to Rich not yet having decided how old he wanted the world to be.) It's also possible that this planet developed rifts unusually early, of course, but that seems less likely to me.

Dwarven generations could be any length on average, since dwarves can live for, what, 300 years? 400 at most? I'm going to take a wild guess that they're about 80 years on average, though, since Durkon is in his fifties (IIRC) and seems to be of marriageable age.

That suggests that if the world is, say, 3,200 years old, the dwarves could be as many as 40 generations away from the birth of the planet. 40 human generations is about a millennium, maybe more. That's easily enough time for stories about kings to pass into myth, particularly in the violent sort of atmosphere that most of the OOTSverse seems to exist in.

I can think of at least one organization that has easily accessible, absolute records of every leader going back two thousand years.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I can think of at least one organization that has easily accessible, absolute records of every leader going back two thousand years.

Eh. If you are talking about a certain church, the oldest records are rather suspect, due to the conditions of secrecy in which it operated, and so are a few in the middle, when "who was in charge" was in a bit of a dispute. But even more impressively, we have a fairly good grasp of who were the two guys in charge ("consuls") of every year of the Roman Republic (and who was given the prestigious but powerless office in the Empire) going back to the first burning of Rome in ~400 BCE. That's far more than who was king - these positions changed hands yearly.

I'd be very surprised if the dwarves didn't keep at least as accurate records - they stereotypically do, and it's practically canon now that the OotS world was built on stereotypes.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

I think Dvalin's Lawfulness-to-the-point-of-stupidity is a point in favor of him having ascended in this world, what with the bet between Thor and Hel resulting in such an honor-bound society that it produces people like Durkon, Dvalin, etc.

[Peelee]

Eh. If you are talking about a certain church, the oldest records are rather suspect, due to the conditions of secrecy in which it operated, and so are a few in the middle, when "who was in charge" was in a bit of a dispute. But even more impressively, we have a fairly good grasp of who were the two guys in charge ("consuls") of every year of the Roman Republic (and who was given the prestigious but powerless office in the Empire) going back to the first burning of Rome in ~400 BCE. That's far more than who was king - these positions changed hands yearly.

I'd be very surprised if the dwarves didn't keep at least as accurate records - they stereotypically do, and it's practically canon now that the OotS world was built on stereotypes.

Grey Wolf

I was, and it makes sense that my education on such would have been presented as more definitive. The Roman thing I'll gladly run with, though. Thanks!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think Dvalin's Lawfulness-to-the-point-of-stupidity is a point in favor of him having ascended in this world, what with the bet between Thor and Hel resulting in such an honor-bound society that it produces people like Durkon, Dvalin, etc.

For the record, and for what is worth, this is my view too.

Grey Wolf

[Synesthesy]

The fact is that organization like Roman Empire, Chatolic Church, etc, have always had a clear law of succession. From Julius Caesar to Costantine XI Palaiologos, we have a straight line of legit emperors.

If Dvalin is of another world, he must not be of a random world, but from the first world ever to have a dwarf society, or at least, from the first dwarven kingdom, or his title would not have sense. Then, in every universe, the organization known as "Council of Clans" must be working, and every one must be the heir of the last one for Dvalin oath to properly work. You know, when your organization shut down, you can't go in another and say you are the boss without reason.

So, for a really huge number of universes, Dwarf should have the same council ruling over them, thing that say that every world dwarves work with clans, etc. Knowing that Gods like to test different setting, and that if dwarves existed in past worlds, they were NOT that honorfull because the bet with Hel did not exist.

If someone can explain this to me in a giantly way, I'll think it can be. Otherwise, I'll still think that, from what Dvalin says, he is from this world and the council of clans he's referring to is the same organization that existed when he was alive.

PS: I just noted that High Priest of Thor call the King "Davlin" in 1016 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html) :smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

The fact is that organization like Roman Empire [...] have always had a clear law of succession.

No they hadn't. For the longest time Roman Emperors pretended to just be a normal citizen who held all the offices by election because they were just that awesome.

The succession process for the Roman Empire was basically
1) Have someone (former Emperor, some Legions, the Senate, the Pretorian Guard, etc) hail you as emperor.
2) Win the ensuing civil war.

[Synesthesy]

No they hadn't. For the longest time Roman Emperors pretended to just be a normal citizen who held all the offices by election because they were just that awesome.

The succession process for the Roman Empire was basically
1) Have someone (former Emperor, some Legions, the Senate, the Pretorian Guard, etc) hail you as emperor.
2) Win the ensuing civil war.

And this is a law so clear that only needed 2 point to be explained :) yes it's RAI instead of RAW, but still you have an almost complete and clear line of emperors.

[Fyraltari]

You have a weird understanding of the concept of "law".

Also, the position of Roman Emperor was bought at an auction once.

[Peelee]

You have a weird understanding of the concept of "law".

Also, the position of Roman Emperor was bought at an auction once.

It must be nice to be rich.

[Fyraltari]

It must be nice to be rich.

Dude got beheaded two months (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didius_Julianus) later though.

Seriously, looking at the turnover, I wonder how many emperors and pretendants had a death wish.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Dude got beheaded two months (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didius_Julianus) later though.

Seriously, looking at the turnover, I wonder how many emperors and pretendants had a death wish.

They all imagined themselves to be the next Augustus (the sickly child who ruled for 40 freaking years) or one of the "good emperors" (minimum ~19 years, if you conveniently ignore Nerva). Or of course you were like Caligula, and considered it your birthright.

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd be very surprised if the dwarves didn't keep at least as accurate records - they stereotypically do, and it's practically canon now that the OotS world was built on stereotypes. I daresay that the dwarves put the term "written in stone" into a new category. :smallsmile:

[DeliaP]

PS: I just noted that High Priest of Thor call the King "Davlin" in 1016 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html) :smalltongue:
Yeah, I noticed that typo while rereading just now. Minor pedantry from me here though: from the speech bubble colour I'm pretty sure that's Odin himself speaking through the priest (remember the Gods literally can't here what the mortals are saying)

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, I noticed that typo while rereading just now. Minor pedantry from me here though: from the speech bubble colour I'm pretty sure that's Odin himself speaking through the priest (remember the Gods literally can't here what the mortals are saying)

Pedantry fail. That's Thor.

[DeliaP]

Pedantry fail. That's Thor.

Well, that's what I get for posting before I've had my morning coffee.... need coffee...

[Peelee]

Yeah, I noticed that typo while rereading just now. Minor pedantry from me here though: from the speech bubble colour I'm pretty sure that's Odin himself speaking through the priest (remember the Gods literally can't here what the mortals are saying)

Yellow speech bubbles can be interrupted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) by non-deities, though.

[martianmister]

Yellow speech bubbles can be interrupted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) by non-deities, though.

Which means they can hear them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Which means they can hear them.

Or that once again, Physics proves itself willing to sneak into a back alley and service Drama as would a copper-piece harlot.

The gods can't hear mortals and undead monstrosities unless Drama gives them a hand.

Grey Wolf, always slightly surprised that sentence made it into a PG 13 comic

[hamishspence]

Odin's priest can hear, even if the gods cannot.

[hroþila]

Odin's priest can hear, even if the gods cannot.
Yup (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19702494&postcount=77)..........

[Fyraltari]

...

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Odin_zpstrckw0x4.png "Therefore, the Northern Pantheon votes No!
...
Hello? I said "the Nortern Pantheon votes No".

Is this spell working?

Guys? Can you hear me?

I can't hear you. I think my High Priestess is broken or something."

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f228/dcorbett42/hel_zps050e0cf5.png "My fellow Gods and Goddesses..."

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Odin_zpstrckw0x4.png "Oh."

[MartianInvader]

You know, I just reread #1012, and Hermod's dialogue makes it sound like she considers destroying the world some unfathomable, horrific event, not something she's been through multiple times. That seems a point in favor of the "Demigods have a one-world lifespan" theory.

[Fyraltari]

You know, I just reread #1012, and Hermod's dialogue makes it sound like she considers destroying the world sine unfathomable, horrific event, not something she's been through multiple times. That seems a point in favor of the "Demigods have a one-world lifespan" theory.

That's a good point, but it's kinda weird since Hermod is both a real Norse mythology god* and not particularily tied to a race so it'd be kind of strange for him to be an ascended mortal.

*and a he, by the way.

[hroþila]

You know, I just reread #1012, and Hermod's dialogue makes it sound like she considers destroying the world sine unfathomable, horrific event, not something she's been through multiple times. That seems a point in favor of the "Demigods have a one-world lifespan" theory.
Nitpick: Hermod is almost definitely a dude.
Other than that, I don't think his dialogue necessarily suggests this is unfathomable, just something that would be pretty terrible. Thor likely considers it a horrific event and he's clearly been through this plenty of times. If voting Yes to destroy the world was truly that unfathomable to him, I doubt Hermod would have committed himself to it even as a political gesture he had no intention of seeing through.

[Synesthesy]

You have a weird understanding of the concept of "law".


I'm chaotic :smalltongue:

[ManuelSacha]

Strip #1140, panel 8:
"We've gotten better at extending the time each world survives. We're up to a few thousands years each, give or take."

Well, at least now we can put those doubts to rest:

"A few thousands years" is the maximum duration reached so far;
There has been a somewhat steady progression, world after world;
It might have been halted (or slowed) lately, since each of the last "few" worlds lasted the same amount of time (give or take).

[MartianInvader]

Nitpick: Hermod is almost definitely a dude.
Other than that, I don't think his dialogue necessarily suggests this is unfathomable, just something that would be pretty terrible. Thor likely considers it a horrific event and he's clearly been through this plenty of times. If voting Yes to destroy the world was truly that unfathomable to him, I doubt Hermod would have committed himself to it even as a political gesture he had no intention of seeing through.
Whoops, got thrown on gender due to the female high priest.

My point is, Hermod wanted to vote with Hel but didn't think she'd have the votes to actually do it. He actually went back on his word when he became the deciding vote. But we know there have been many votes like this before, and some of them ended in global destruction - so why was Hermod so surprised that there were enough votes? There are a few possible explanations, but the simplest I can think of is he wasn't there for the other votes.