1130/963 - "Something to look forward to"

[Carnie]

Sorry if this has been covered before; I'm new and I don't really want to look through the entire 1130 discussion thread to see if this has already been brought up.

Comic #963 seems to be foreshadowing something. Durkon seems to gain some kind of insight from the fact that the vampire spirit doesn't grasp the connection between the two memories, and appears to be planning to use that to his advantage. But, what does this have to do with his eventual gambit in 1130? I've been trying to figure it out and (ironically) I just don't see the connection. What am I missing?

[RMS Oceanic]

What Durkon figured out was that because the Vampire was only looking at his memories piecemeal, he was missing all the inbetween memories that allowed Durkon to process going from "helping too much" to "helping not enough". And because he was missing these chunks of Durkon, Sidgi's sacrifice would be utterly incomprehensible to him, and that was when he's make his move.

[woweedd]

What Durkon figured out was that because the Vampire was only looking at his memories piecemeal, he was missing all the inbetween memories that allowed Durkon to process going from "helping too much" to "helping not enough". And because he was missing these chunks of Durkon, Sidgi's sacrifice would be utterly incomprehensible to him, and that was when he's make his move.
Plus, it seems like Durkon couldn't show any memories to the vampire unless it asked him or they just popped up due to him being reminded of something. Why is that relevant? Because, by showing the vampire something it couldn't comprehend, he was able to trick it into answering in the affirmative when he offered memories that "would help", which he defined as "every memory of his life", overwhelming the monster.

[Gift Jeraff]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html
On Page 1, Panel 9, the vampire says "Maybe a big slimy monster or something?" After viewing the second memory, the vampire says "I guess that's somethin' to look forward to." Durkon then says "Thar's definitely somethin' ta look forward ta..." He was noticing the memories had an effect on the vampire. In his final moments of existence the vampire also said "tha" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1129.html) (Page 1, Panel 2) and "unnerstand" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html) (Page 2, Panel 7).

[Ruck]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html
On Page 1, Panel 9, the vampire says "Maybe a big slimy monster or something?" After viewing the second memory, the vampire says "I guess that's somethin' to look forward to." Durkon then says "Thar's definitely somethin' ta look forward ta..." He was noticing the memories had an effect on the vampire. In his final moments of existence the vampire also said "tha" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1129.html) (Page 1, Panel 2) and "unnerstand" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html) (Page 2, Panel 7).

Heh, I just noticed that the vampire goes from saying "something" in panel 9 to "somethin'" at the end.

[martianmister]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html
On Page 1, Panel 9, the vampire says "Maybe a big slimy monster or something?" After viewing the second memory, the vampire says "I guess that's somethin' to look forward to." Durkon then says "Thar's definitely somethin' ta look forward ta..." He was noticing the memories had an effect on the vampire. In his final moments of existence the vampire also said "tha" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1129.html) (Page 1, Panel 2) and "unnerstand" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html) (Page 2, Panel 7).

So, the memory parts were a red herring?

[NerdyKris]

The vampire didn't have the connections for why Durkon would act the way he did. He didn't want to help Roy if he didn't need it, because when he helped his mother, he made things worse. On top of that, he showed a memory of how they were so poor she had to wait until payday to replace a bowl.

He realized that the vampire didn't have the context for any memories, so every memory he showed him intentionally focused on situations where Durkon's life was harder because they didn't have money, all leading up to the revelation that his mother gave away 2,500 gold pieces before he was born. By intentionally not showing the reasons or context for the events in his memories, he found an opening where the vampire would be confused, at which point he gave him the context of why Durkon accepted Sigdi's reason for not keeping the money.

[Zyzzyva]

So, the memory parts were a red herring?

That would be my guess, yeah. Although showing us that the vampire spirit isn't too good with connecting dots is also valuable.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So, the memory parts were a red herring?

No, the memory parts exemplify the problem: that who we are is not just our current thoughts but the sum of all of our life experiences, that have shaped us in ways we are not consciously aware of: even Durkon hadn’t connected the dots between being too helpful to his mom and his subsequent passiveness. Then, upon realizing that, he also notes that Greg cannot connect the dots because he is missing all the others in between, unlike Durkon.

So Durkon start setting up a scenario where, to make sense of what is going on in a memory, you need all of Durkon’s experiences: the memory of why Durkon grew up fatherless and poor, a moment that Durkon himself is still trying to process, even with all his memories.

Grey Wolf

[Morquard]

So, the memory parts were a red herring?

The specific memory yes. The fact that he can't connect two memories, because he's missing some in between, on the other hand, is very much what turned out to be important.

[LogicalOxymoron]

Then, upon realizing that, he also notes that Greg cannot connect the dots because he is missing all the others in between, unlike Durkon.

Somehow this feels like a dissatisfying answer. Clearly Greg is missing something more than Durkon's in-between memories; after all, none of us have all of Durkon's memories either, but regardless, the connection between the two scenes is pretty obvious to everybody but, apparently, Greg.

[Kish]

Let me phrase it differently then: He realized that Greg, for all his ability to reason at an adult level in many ways, has a newborn's understanding of context, shaped by the amount of time he had experienced, not by his vampire ability scores. He didn't understand why Durkon would say "Ta Hel with ye!" one day, and not mean it years later. And faced with a memory that took years of processing for Durkon to understand, the only thing he could do, was ask Durkon to give him years of memories.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Somehow this feels like a dissatisfying answer. Clearly Greg is missing something more than Durkon's in-between memories; after all, none of us have all of Durkon's memories either, but regardless, the connection between the two scenes is pretty obvious to everybody but, apparently, Greg.

We have our own memories we can repurpose to make sense of those scenes. Greg had nothing but a mere week's worth of his own, and what little he had got from Durkon.

Grey Wolf

[Mightymosy]

Somehow this feels like a dissatisfying answer. Clearly Greg is missing something more than Durkon's in-between memories; after all, none of us have all of Durkon's memories either, but regardless, the connection between the two scenes is pretty obvious to everybody but, apparently, Greg.

And you wouldn't be alone with that feeling. Consider reading the thread "Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?" from a couple weeks ago, there was a complete discussion about that topic. It even has an explanation by Rich Burlew inside.
I still don't think the story makes much sense in the way it reads, but it's the way it is. Not every story arc is good for everyone.

[Ruck]

Heh, I just noticed that the vampire goes from saying "something" in panel 9 to "somethin'" at the end.

So my interpretation in hindsight is that not only does the vampire not understand how to make connections between the memories-- because he doesn't have the lived experience of Durkon that allows him to do so-- but as indicated in my own quoted post, the memories have already begun to affect the vampire in a way he hasn't noticed.

All along I thought Durkon was emphasizing "somethin'" because he had something particular in mind (which I guess he did, obviously), but now I realize he was emphasizing the pronunciation of the word itself as well.

[MartianInvader]

All along I thought Durkon was emphasizing "somethin'" because he had something particular in mind (which I guess he did, obviously), but now I realize he was emphasizing the pronunciation of the world itself as well.
Holy Gehenna, I never noticed that! He's seeing that absorbing the memory changed the vampire, and made him a little bit more like Durkon! Next to that, the revelation that the vampire doesn't understand how people are shaped by their experiences is almost an afterthought.

[AutomatedTeller]

Yeah, the summary of Rich's post (which explains it better, of course) was that Durkon overwhelmed Durkula with memories and that pretty much no one else could have done it, because of the specific situation Greg was in (needing to access memories and not having time to absorb them at his leisure, and doesn't have the slow-burn shocking memory Durkon had).

Honestly, the writing in this section is astonishing. Foreshadowing works best when you know it's there, you know it's meaningful and, when it becomes meaningful, you didn't see it coming AND think it works well. This takes some thinking about, I think, but boy does it work.

And the somethin' in this comic from Durkula? Totally missed that. Though, I'm guessing there was a lot speculation about it at the time.

[Gift Jeraff]

Though, I'm guessing there was a lot speculation about it at the time.

Not really, as far as I recall. Most speculation focused on the whole "the vampire can't connect the 2 memories" idea and that Durkon will use that to trick him to expose him to the OOTS (or throw him off when he battles the OOTS). It seemed a lot of people interpreted the undead spirit as robot-like and that the vampirism issue was a logic puzzle for Durkon to solve.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

At the time I mostly thought it was related to the accent, but now I also see it as being about the realization that the vampire has trouble connecting memories due to his lack of experience on this world, which is what Durkon later used to overwhelm him.

[Ruck]

At the time I mostly thought it was related to the accent, but now I also see it as being about the realization that the vampire has trouble connecting memories due to his lack of experience on this world, which is what Durkon later used to overwhelm him.

It's both. The accent is the key that receiving Durkon's memories changes the vampire to be more like Durkon without the vampire noticing, which is why Durkon thinks his plan to overwhelm the vampire will work.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's both. The accent is the key that receiving Durkon's memories changes the vampire to be more like Durkon without the vampire noticing, which is why Durkon thinks his plan to overwhelm the vampire will work.

Not just the accent. In many comics (such as this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html)), Greg would force a memory out of Durkon, and then use it in the real world to his advantage... but also parrot one of the lines of the memory. Like the accent, they were subtle clues that Greg was being changed by the memories.

Grey Wolf

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It's both. The accent is the key that receiving Durkon's memories changes the vampire to be more like Durkon without the vampire noticing, which is why Durkon thinks his plan to overwhelm the vampire will work.
Oh, I definitely agree! Hence the also in my statement.

Not just the accent. In many comics (such as this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html)), Greg would force a memory out of Durkon, and then use it in the real world to his advantage... but also parrot one of the lines of the memory. Like the accent, they were subtle clues that Greg was being changed by the memories.

Grey Wolf
This as well.

[Ruck]

Not just the accent. In many comics (such as this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html)), Greg would force a memory out of Durkon, and then use it in the real world to his advantage... but also parrot one of the lines of the memory. Like the accent, they were subtle clues that Greg was being changed by the memories.

Grey Wolf

Right-- I just meant that the accent was the first sign that we (and Durkon) got that these memories would change the vampire.

[Ninja Dragon]

I'm rereading the comic and found this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html

Durkon really does have a problem with helping people unsolocited.