Are Crusaders granted maneuvers out of combat?

[Particle_Man]

Crusaders are granted a few of their readied maneuvers at the beginning of an encounter. Does that mean they are only granted in combat? If not, when, if ever, would maneuvers be all readied but none granted?

[Aegis013]

If memory serves me, as I'm AFB, ToB never clarifies this. As a DM, my rule is that outside of an encounter scenario all of the Crusader's readied maneuvers are granted.

[heavyfuel]

I would say that's the RAW of it. However, there is a ruling from one the designers that I use for anything that works "per encounter" (such as Factotums' Inspiration Points or Crusaders' Maneuvers) has unlimited uses outside of combat as long as you have a minute or 2 five minutes to catch your breath.

Edit:

Found the ruling here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?187655-Dungeonscape-Answers/page9&p=3339749#post3339749). According to Mike Mearls who, I think, created the mess known as the Factotum, you regain IP after 5 minutes outside of combat.

Seems fair to apply a similar ruling to the Crusader. Every 5 minutes outside of combat you can re-use your maneuvers.

[Bakkan]

If not, when, if ever, would maneuvers be all readied but none granted?

If the Crusader has used up all of his granted maneuvers then he would have maneuvers readied but not granted, at least until he is granted a new maneuver.

[Darrin]

If your DM is being a jerk about this, you can choose to "attack an invisible opponent" in an adjacent square, forcing an initiative roll to start an encounter. Your DM can't absolutely prove (to your character) that there isn't one there, so you can attack it with a 50% miss chance. Once you are granted a hand of maneuvers, you can cycle through them until you get the one you want. Crusaders are also known for attacking rocks/trees as an "opponent" for the purposes of using their healing strikes/stances. If the DM is being really obtuse about this, then you can insist that he draw out the battlemap, including relevant terrain, force spot/listen checks to determine surprise, establish lighting conditions, check for weather, and so forth.

After going through all that a few times, the DM should hopefully be more open to reconsidering allowing you to use your maneuvers outside of combat.

[Kish]

What are you trying to to do with this? Are you trying to use Crusader's Strike for out-of-combat healing or use Mountain Hammer to break down a door?

[Goaty14]

If you have a maneuver known, but no way to recover it (i.e Martial Study, or one of them items), then you can spend 5 minutes in meditation to recover it. It's somewhere in ToB, trust me.

[ExLibrisMortis]

[...] if an adept is out of combat entirely, assume that if a character makes no attacks of any kind, initiates no new maneuvers, and is not targeted by any enemy attacks for 1 full minute, he can recover all expended maneuvers [...]

In my view, a crusader out of combat is continuously cycling through their maneuvers, building from the initial set until all are granted, and then starting over with new initial set. That means a 20th-level crusader with Extra Granted Maneuver refreshes all maneuvers every three rounds (7 readied, 5 initially granted on round 1, 6 on round 2, 7 on round 3, reset on round 4).

[Particle_Man]

What are you trying to to do with this? Are you trying to use Crusader's Strike for out-of-combat healing or use Mountain Hammer to break down a door?

To teleport with shadow stride via martial study, actually. I am trying to see whether and how often I can do it outside of combat. If not I can take dance of the spider via martial stance at twelfth level but if I can teleport often enough that might be redundant.

I know the maneuvers are readied but the granting mechanism throws me.

Also, what is an encounter. I seem to remember a take 10 example where Kursk rages at a door or something else out of combat, so presumably there is such a thing as a noncombat encounter.

I don’t know whether I am cycling through granted maneuvers every waking moment because the beginning of an encounter starts at the beginning of a cycle, never the middle of one.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don’t know whether I am cycling through granted maneuvers every waking moment because the beginning of an encounter starts at the beginning of a cycle, never the middle of one.
Well, you keep cycling until a new encounter starts, then you reset.

[Quertus]

In my view, a crusader out of combat is continuously cycling through their maneuvers, building from the initial set until all are granted, and then starting over with new initial set. That means a 20th-level crusader with Extra Granted Maneuver refreshes all maneuvers every three rounds (7 readied, 5 initially granted on round 1, 6 on round 2, 7 on round 3, reset on round 4).

This is almost my take on it. If it worked exactly like this, though, the Crusader could begin an encounter with maneuvers readied (33% of the time, in fact). Since that doesn't happen, I expect is more of a "when / while the Crusader attempts to draw upon his power, he cycles through his abilities randomly, (usually) at a rate of once per 3 rounds."

Thus, a Crusader out of combat can use and reuse him maneuvers once per X rounds, where X is usually 3 -> once per 18 seconds.

[NichG]

If your DM is being a jerk about this, you can choose to "attack an invisible opponent" in an adjacent square, forcing an initiative roll to start an encounter. Your DM can't absolutely prove (to your character) that there isn't one there, so you can attack it with a 50% miss chance. Once you are granted a hand of maneuvers, you can cycle through them until you get the one you want. Crusaders are also known for attacking rocks/trees as an "opponent" for the purposes of using their healing strikes/stances. If the DM is being really obtuse about this, then you can insist that he draw out the battlemap, including relevant terrain, force spot/listen checks to determine surprise, establish lighting conditions, check for weather, and so forth.

After going through all that a few times, the DM should hopefully be more open to reconsidering allowing you to use your maneuvers outside of combat.

Sounds like a good way to provoke the DM into making a ruling which makes you lose access to your abilities during surprise rounds or before your initiative has come up during an encounter...

[Zombimode]

If your DM is being a jerk about this, you can choose to "attack an invisible opponent" in an adjacent square, forcing an initiative roll to start an encounter. Your DM can't absolutely prove (to your character) that there isn't one there, so you can attack it with a 50% miss chance. Once you are granted a hand of maneuvers, you can cycle through them until you get the one you want. Crusaders are also known for attacking rocks/trees as an "opponent" for the purposes of using their healing strikes/stances. If the DM is being really obtuse about this, then you can insist that he draw out the battlemap, including relevant terrain, force spot/listen checks to determine surprise, establish lighting conditions, check for weather, and so forth.

After going through all that a few times, the DM should hopefully be more open to reconsidering allowing you to use your maneuvers outside of combat.

What a delightful idea!

Really, how do you picture this happening?

I think the following is more likely:

Player: "I attack the darkness with Crusaders Strike".

DM: "... why?"

Player: "To get the healing."

DM: "Isn't that an 'on hit' trigger?"

Player: "No, I swear, it's 'on attack'!"

DM: "Ok, lets assume you're correct, then..."
Now the DM makes a decision how to handle the Situation.
DM: "... that means crusaders can pretty much heal everyone in between encounters. So we can assume that everybody is at full health if there is no time pressure. Moving on...
or
DM: "... I don't think this is the intended use for this ability. Maybe we should talk about what the crusaders abilities represent in the world, both in general and for your character in specific, so that we are on the same page here. But lets do this after the game, and for the evening I will rule that you can't crusaders strike for out-of-combat healing. Okay?"

[Darrin]

Really, how do you picture this happening?


Attacking the darkness is just to get combat started and get dealt a set of granted maneuvers. If you want out-of-combat healing via Martial Spirit, you need a successful melee attack. This won't work with Crusader's Strike, because that maneuver requires your target to have an alignment at least one component different from yours, and the opponent must pose an immediate and direct threat to you or your allies. Martial Spirit, however, has no such restrictions. Thus, if you hit a tree or a rock, you could call that a "successful melee attack" and use it to heal yourself or your allies. Some DMs will throw books at your head if you try this. Some DMs allow infinite out-of-combat healing, and adjust their encounters accordingly, without any particular downside. It's a mixed-up, muddled-up, shook-up world.

[Particle_Man]

I am leaning towards you can always be in a stance with a swift action while conscious, but, while you have maneuvers readied while conscious, they are not granted except during an encounter (because the fluff says that the god you worship determines what is granted (via random mechanic, but hey the ways of a god are mysterious).

But what is an encounter? Is it just a combat? It is any "non-downtime" situation, including roleplay encounters, exploration encounters, trap encounters?

Does that seem consistent with the rules?

[Ringadon]

If your DM is being a jerk about this, you can choose to "attack an invisible opponent" in an adjacent square, forcing an initiative roll to start an encounter. Your DM can't absolutely prove (to your character) that there isn't one there, so you can attack it with a 50% miss chance. Once you are granted a hand of maneuvers, you can cycle through them until you get the one you want. Crusaders are also known for attacking rocks/trees as an "opponent" for the purposes of using their healing strikes/stances. If the DM is being really obtuse about this, then you can insist that he draw out the battlemap, including relevant terrain, force spot/listen checks to determine surprise, establish lighting conditions, check for weather, and so forth.

After going through all that a few times, the DM should hopefully be more open to reconsidering allowing you to use your maneuvers outside of combat.

Just attack a tree... danged thing had it coming.

[Celestia]

Just attack a tree... danged thing had it coming.
Perfectly legitimate if you're playing a dwarf crusader.

[ExLibrisMortis]

[...] the Crusader could begin an encounter with maneuvers readied [...]
No, because the rules state that crusaders begin an encounter with all maneuvers readied and two to five granted, which overrides the cycling that happens normally. There is nothing that happens at the end of an encounter, so you keep cycling until another encounter starts.

[BowStreetRunner]

Tome of Battle, page 40: "You can recover expended maneuvers in two ways: through special actions or at the end of an encounter." Further down the page there is a whole section about the End of the Encounter. Bottom line is that you only need to use your recovery method while in an encounter.

However, if you are a nonmartial adept (you have a maneuver from Martial Study and no martial adept class) the page 96 states "You can recover your expended maneuvers outside combat with 5 minutes of exercise and meditation."

[Particle_Man]

Tome of Battle, page 40: "You can recover expended maneuvers in two ways: through special actions or at the end of an encounter." Further down the page there is a whole section about the End of the Encounter. Bottom line is that you only need to use your recovery method while in an encounter.

However, if you are a nonmartial adept (you have a maneuver from Martial Study and no martial adept class) the page 96 states "You can recover your expended maneuvers outside combat with 5 minutes of exercise and meditation."

That quote seems to apply to how maneuvers are readied, but I don't know if it applies to how readied maneuvers are granted. I could see an interpretation where outside of an encounter a crusader walks around with all of their maneuvers recovered (and thus readied) but none of them granted.

[MilleniaAntares]

In my view, a crusader out of combat is continuously cycling through their maneuvers, building from the initial set until all are granted, and then starting over with new initial set. That means a 20th-level crusader with Extra Granted Maneuver refreshes all maneuvers every three rounds (7 readied, 5 initially granted on round 1, 6 on round 2, 7 on round 3, reset on round 4).
This is my interpretation as well.

Most of the time when you decide to do something - like Mountain Hammer down a door - you just wait until it's granted and then use it.

Unless there is a time pressure that extends beyond the framework of an encounter ("we have one hour to go through this dungeon and rescue the princess"), the waiting period can just be fluffed as studying the problem until the moment of inspiration strikes.