Permanency on a scroll

[Mordaedil]

So I am playing a sorcerer who recently reached level 5, one of my spells picked is see invisibility and we recently came across a lot of money.

One of the things I was thinking of doing was getting it permanencied to myself, but the ways of doing this is pretty clearly stated in he spell. I can only do this to myself, so I can't hire a spellcaster to cast permanency and caster level needs to be 10th level. But I was thinking, if I hire a 10th level spellcaster to craft me a scroll, maybe I could use the scroll to get it done (it would be kinda expensive though, 6250gp if the crafter making the scroll has to pay the xp cost mentioned in the spell, but only 1250 gp if I have to take the xp hit myself.)

So my question is, is this a legit way of getting the spell permanent, or does see invisibility also need to be cast at 10th level to make this work? I assume if the former ruling is that the creator of permanency has to spend the xp, then he'd have to be told which spell in advance it will be spent on?

While I'll have to bring it up with the DM regardless, I'd just like to know if there is anything official on this.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You are considered the caster of the spell when you cast from a scroll.

You could pay a psion to create a soul crystal (http://www.psionics.info/powers/soul-crystal/) (MoI power) of incarnate or permanency (if it's a StP erudite). That would be cheaper, since you would be paying for the manifestation of a power, rather than the crafting of the scroll. Have the psion manifest soul crystal without any XP in it, so you have to supply it.

You may want to do the same for a soul crystal of psychic reformation so you can repick your spells and feats as you need to, so you can permanency a ton of spells before swapping over to others. Another manifestation of soul crystal for quintessence means you can save those soul crystals to reuse later.

[Malphegor]

The only way I could see it working is if there was a permanancy metamagic feat homebrewed, as an advanced form of the persistent/extend metamagics. I think you can make pre-metamagic’d scrolls, so that’d work

[Nifft]

Craft or buy a Runestaff of Downtime (contains Permanency, Guards & Wards, Planar Binding, etc.).

Attune it when you're expecting downtime.

Attune your regular Runestaff when you go adventuring.

[Darrin]

Paying the XP cost is baked into the scroll by the creator, as per the DMG p. 287:

"The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself." (emphasis added)

So yes, a 10th level scroll of permanency would cost 6250 GP.

To cast the spell successfully from a scroll, a 5th level sorcerer would have to pass caster level check (as per DMG p. 238). DC = scroll's caster level + 1 = 11. With a CL of 5, you've got a 25% failure rate.

Some methods to boost your caster level check:

A Legacy Gift (Weapons of Legacy p. 12) can give a +10 bonus on a caster level check, but you have to be wielding a legacy item and defeat someone else wielding a legacy item.

Arcane Mastery feat (Complete Arcane) allows you to "Take 10" on caster level checks.

Devil's Favor feat (Fiendish Codex II) gives you a +2 untyped bonus on any check 1/day. You might be able to pick this up by casting alter self to change into a Hellbred (same book), picking up Devil's Favor as a racial bonus feat.

Bead of Karma (20000 GP, DMG). +4 CL for 10 minutes, although as an arcane caster you have to make a UMD check DC 21. However, since that's a skill check, you can use a potion of guidance of the avatar for a +20 UMD bonus (300 GP).

Ring of Arcane Might (20000 GP, MIC) gets you +1 on caster level checks.

Create Magic Tattoo (Spell Compentium), if cast by a 13th level caster, can give you a +1 caster level for 24 hours.

Terran Brandy (500 GP, BoVD) is a drug that can give you a +2 alchemical bonus to your caster level for 1d20+20 minutes. Secondary effect is 2 Con damage (Fort DC 19).

Hmm. I think alter self into a Hellbred with terran brandy and create magic tattoo gets you the +5 you need to make the DC 11 caster level check. Scroll of alter self is 150 GP, terran brandy is 500 GP, and getting a magic tattoo from a 13th level caster should be 260 GP.

[Mordaedil]

Thanks Darrin, I also have Snowcasting and Frozen magic, so I think I can nearly neglect the failure chance between that and the brandy. Or at least reduce it to 5%, which I'm willing to risk.


You are considered the caster of the spell when you cast from a scroll.

You could pay a psion to create a soul crystal (http://www.psionics.info/powers/soul-crystal/) (MoI power) of incarnate or permanency (if it's a StP erudite). That would be cheaper, since you would be paying for the manifestation of a power, rather than the crafting of the scroll. Have the psion manifest soul crystal without any XP in it, so you have to supply it.

You may want to do the same for a soul crystal of psychic reformation so you can repick your spells and feats as you need to, so you can permanency a ton of spells before swapping over to others. Another manifestation of soul crystal for quintessence means you can save those soul crystals to reuse later.

We allow retraining as printed in PHBII, so I don't have to worry about using psionics to change out my spells.


Craft or buy a Runestaff of Downtime (contains Permanency, Guards & Wards, Planar Binding, etc.).

Attune it when you're expecting downtime.

Attune your regular Runestaff when you go adventuring.
While a good idea, I have the celestial bloodlines feat, giving me access to guards & wards for free, though I will say Planar Binding is very tempting. Otherwise I don't plan on Permanency being a permanent fixture, if you pardon the pun. If I get dispelled, I will rather just mark it down as a loss at that point as I think I might have access to true seeing when that happens.


The only way I could see it working is if there was a permanancy metamagic feat homebrewed, as an advanced form of the persistent/extend metamagics. I think you can make pre-metamagic’d scrolls, so that’d work
I see you confused persistant spell metamagic with permanency the 5th level spell. Easy mistake to make.

[Kelb_Panthera]

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a

If you commission the scroll instead of buying it, you should be able to pay the xp component yourself, per the above article, and get that portion of the market price knocked off. Even if he charges you for the casting of the transference spell (d-bag move but it's a seller's market) that's still cheaper than 5x the xp.

[Crake]

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a

If you commission the scroll instead of buying it, you should be able to pay the xp component yourself, per the above article, and get that portion of the market price knocked off. Even if he charges you for the casting of the transference spell (d-bag move but it's a seller's market) that's still cheaper than 5x the xp.

I believe if he's actually there and participates in the crafting, he can directly contribute his XP instead of needing to cast transference.

[Mordaedil]

The question then becomes, is it worth more to pay the cost in gold or in sacrificing xp yourself? I am already a few hundred xp behind the rest of the party (roleplay rewards) so spending a full 1000 at level 5, might put me too far back.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The question then becomes, is it worth more to pay the cost in gold or in sacrificing xp yourself? I am already a few hundred xp behind the rest of the party (roleplay rewards) so spending a full 1000 at level 5, might put me too far back.

XP is a river. The worst that could happen is you fall a level behind the rest of the party for a while. Making it to two levels behind is difficult without deliberately setting out to do so or coming back from the dead.

Gold, on the other hand, is a "you get what you get" situation. (Though a GM ignoring WBL is a red flag, of course.)

If you're going to do this at all, spend the xp rather than the extra gp. That's my take anyway.

[Vaern]

Things with dispel magic 1/day start popping up by CR4, and by CR6 there are things that have dispel magic at will.
I've seen someone spend most of their starting gold on becoming permanently enlarged and then build his character (level 6) around wielding a weapon several size categories larger than himself. He had all of his gear created for his adjusted size category because otherwise it would have shrunk as soon as it left his person, and it's not realistic to expect someone to sleep in a suit of full plate every night or to never set their sword down. If I recall correctly, he also had to pay a fortune to make his weapon out of mithril because otherwise it would've been too heavy to lift due to its size. He invested so much into being a veritable giant that he couldn't afford to make his armor magical, which could have allowed it to resize if he was to shrink.
First encounter after meeting this new character, round one, dispel magic. Mind you, this wasn't something that the DM picked out and threw at us so he could spite the guy for min-maxing so hard. Our party had been actively hunting a harvester devil that was causing trouble in the area. Harvester devils can dispel magic 3/day, and when we found him he saw a giant dude with an obvious magical effect that made him the largest threat (literally) out of all of us. With a wave of the devil's hand, the most expensive part of that character's build was erased, his armor no longer fit, and his sword was too large to wield.
Based solely on personal experience, I would not recommend taking the gamble that you'll make it to 12th level and get true seeing before encountering something that can dispel your permanent spell effect. It's not only a rather expensive investment, especially at low levels, but it's much easier than you would expect to lose it completely.
Just hold onto the spell and keep it available to cast when necessary. Or, if you really want a permanent see invisibility effect, consider investing in having a wondrous item crafted. Instead of becoming a useless pile of junk when dispelled, magic items are merely suppressed for a couple rounds. So, surely, some sort of special spectacles of sight should serve a search for supernaturally screened subjects sufficiently.

[Mordaedil]

I'm doing this mostly so I won't have to cast it on myself. Even dispel magic has rules to it, it doesn't just vanish because it's the most obvious tactic. Because action economy is a thing, I figured it'd save my group a lot of problems if I can focus on casting it on one of them instead of myself.

It may seem like a huge investment, but again, we kinda stumbled across a vast sum of money.