Frustrated DM looking for some advice

[SpectreCatcher]

Greetings All. I am a fairly new DM and a bit less new to playing. The current group I am DMing for is causing me some frustration and I was hoping for some advice from those that are more experienced than myself. Sorry for the long post, I am just at a loss here.

A little history on our group first. I started running this game when our previous game broke down and a few of us wanted to continue to play and I wanted to take a crack at being behind the screen. Our previous game had run for about a year and a half but with very irregular sessions (I don't even think we made to to level 5). So, when the last scheduled game got cancelled last minute a few of us got together and made new characters for this new game. I had no idea what my story was going to be and they didn't really know what they were looking for in a game, so we started with the Forge of Fury module. While prepping this module I have been doing research and prepping a homebrew setting for once we finished the Forge and getting excited along the way to take these characters and give them fun things to do. The prep has been great and I have some really fun ideas that I think would be enjoyed by the group.

The issues have come in during the actual game sessions. We usually play about once a month because of everyone's schedule and that is fine because it gives me plenty of prep time. Where my frustration has been mounting is with the fact that my players do little to nothing between sessions to try to remember where we left off, learn how to play their characters, or even think about their characters. I know that I, as the DM, will always be putting in more time and effort than my players, and I am absolutely fine with that. Problem I'm having is they seem to be putting in no effort at all and almost every game session is me helping them run their characters and reminding them of what the player before them did in combat, etc. I do have one player that seems to do his research and knows his character (he is my DM in another game, so that was expected) other than that it feels like I'm fighting an uphill battle.

It has been so bad that we did have a player drop out of the game after two sessions, saying it was too chaotic and no one seemed like they wanted to be there. I absolutely agreed with him and have been attempting to find ways of helping them engage, during the game sessions and in between them. Doing things like having them roll at the beginning of a session to see who recaps from last game (during our most recent session the person who drew the recap straw said she didn't want to do it because she didn't know what we did, and two others agreed with her). I have been doing research on their characters, sending them videos, websites, guides, and various little things to look at between sessions which seem to go unused. I have also, outside of the sessions, asked them to give me backstories or at least pieces of a backstory to help write things around them, yet have gotten little to no response.

My wife is one of my players and I had a talk with her recently about all of this and her response to me was that they wanted to be there to play the game and socialize with each other (two of the other players are my wife's best friend and sister-in-law) and expecting them not to do that was ridiculous. I let her know that I have no issue with the socializing, as long as people are prepared to play and I don't have to spend two minutes during each round of combat letting them know what has already happened and things that they could be doing during said turn. She told me that expecting that out of them was expecting too much. I strongly disagree with that and feel very disrespected by it. I let her know that by taking that stance it is a complete and utter disrespect of my time that I have, and continue to, put in to making this game that they all supposedly wanted. I have even talked to my wife about me just cancelling the game because I don't feel they want to play, which she always responds to with a "No, we want to play, don't do that".

I am at a complete loss. This is supposed to be fun for everyone and it is not. I am not having fun, and I know that my frustration is showing through during sessions. What can I do? Is there anything I can try? I am seriously considering giving them one more session (it would be the first session in my homebrew, which I am assuming would be more engaging than the pre-written module we were playing) and if I don't see a change then just cutting my losses.

TL;DR: My players are not engaging or even trying to learn their characters, yet insist they want to play. Not sure how to get it through to them that they have to put in some effort as well.

[sophontteks]

So from what I'm getting, they are more interested in socializing then playing a serious game. You could accommodate this by playing single session games, or even playing a different rpg altogether. I've had a lot of fun playing Kobolds Ate My Babies, for example. Its the kind of game you can just bring out for a few hours and have a lot of fun.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Regarding players not remembering what happened last time, the norm in my group is that the DM writes a recap after the session and posts it on our little dedicated webpage.

Would that help?

[KorvinStarmast]

My wife is one of my players and I had a talk with her recently about all of this and her response to me was that they wanted to be there to play the game and socialize with each other (two of the other players are my wife's best friend and sister-in-law) and expecting them not to do that was ridiculous. I let her know that I have no issue with the socializing, as long as people are prepared to play and I don't have to spend two minutes during each round of combat letting them know what has already happened and things that they could be doing during said turn. She told me that expecting that out of them was expecting too much. I strongly disagree with that and feel very disrespected by it. I let her know that by taking that stance it is a complete and utter disrespect of my time that I have, and continue to, put in to making this game that they all supposedly wanted. I have even talked to my wife about me just cancelling the game because I don't feel they want to play, which she always responds to with a "No, we want to play, don't do that".

I am at a complete loss. This is supposed to be fun for everyone and it is not. I am not having fun, and I know that my frustration is showing through during sessions. What can I do? You can stop DMing and see if anyone else will step up ... and make it clear that you are not having fun, thus the reason for you not playing anymore ... but ...

HUGE CAVEAT, since Your Marriage is involved here.

You need to decide what is more important to you: getting together with your friends/family, or "the game itself." Your wife has advised you that at least a few of the players find the former to be the more important thing. That matters. Gaming is a social event, and TTRPG's even more so. (Ever played Bridge in a bridge club? You find out who the serious competitors are, and who the casual/social players are. And you can get kicked under the table ... I don't play bridge anymore).

While I'll suggest that perhaps another game might be a better fit for your group, this current campaign might be savable.

Let me share this with you:
I currently play with my brother, and some friends from the 70's with whom I began playing D&D waaaaay back then. We play using Roll20, as we are all over the country. Regardless of who DMs, I "get into it" and the other players do to varying degrees. I post our journal entries, and recap the sessions. I keep track of the names of NPCs. I invest more. Quite a few are there for the beer and the lulz. I do it because I like to.

I don't get upset if others aren't as into it as I am. I enjoy what we do, as does my brother the DM. Our previous DM was confronted with the same variation of commitment; he's a great DM, but RL happened, so he only makes a few sessions now and again due to a job change.

What can you do and still play?

Before each scheduled session, send a one paragraph recap to all players via email. "We'll pick up where we left off, which was where Akila was hanging off the edge of the cliff and waiting to see if Hecto could get that rope down to her before the second wave of gnolls showed up ..."

Poll your players. Can even one of them take on the roll of scribe? If one will, cajole and flatter them into being the scribe who jots down the session summaries and who sends out "when last we saw our brave heroes, ..."

During play, particularly during combat, if people won't tell you what they are doing, they "dodge" and you move to the next player. If they ask why, your answer is:
"Combat is deadly, fast, and furious. Make a decision, or dodge while you make up your mind."
Encourage them to be thinking about what they will do before it is their turn.

[Sjappo]

What I did to work with forgetful players.

- I do the recap myself. I start each session with a what happened before. I filter what's important for the things happening this session
- I make hand outs for each quest, subquest, notable NPC, location and item with room for the players to make notes.
- In combat I recap for each player. This has happened, what do you do. Takes me ten seconds max and activates the player.
- we plan sigaret breakes every hour, for, well sigarets and small talk.

Works wonders so far.

[Unoriginal]

Have you addressed the issue with the other players, beside your wife?


All due respect to her aside, no, it doesn't sound like they want to play D&D. You don't need to watch videos or learn tons of things to play D&D, but putting some attention and decision-making in the game is required, just as is engaging with the DM and their world.

My advice would be to get all of them together, ask them if they're having them, telling them that you don't and why, and to ask them if they'd rather play a board game instead if they think you're asking for too much.

[Demonslayer666]

I agree with the recap, but do it at the beginning of the session. Write it up as soon as you can after the session. If you can't do it right away, make sure to take good notes so you can refer to them later.

Try and engage the players more. Have something for each player to do during the session. Have good descriptions written up.

You direct the game, take charge and ask the players what they do. Keep non-game conversations short.

I would also recommend getting everyone together in non-game situations to help with the socializing.

[Gorgo]

Is anyone in the group engaged enough to handle recap-posting? I generally prefer to have players do recaps because it makes sure that any information in the recap is stuff that the players learned. It's also a good check on what information actually stuck with the players as opposed to what information the GM thought got distributed ...

[guachi]

Maybe consider playing boardgames, instead. We are in a time of awesome board games. Many are designed to take 30-60 minutes. You get to socialize and you don't have to remember anything from session to session.

[CharPixie]

Try running less combat. Remember that the players are your audience, and you should try to make the game accessible to them. Our sessions run about 2 hours, and are monthly. I can't include much combat because it would bog the flow down too much.

Be open to doing things differently, communicate with all your players. Remember that people are there for different things. Lean on the people who are in to recapping rather than spreading it around. I have a couple of players who are much better at it than I am, so i lean on them to do it. My players also like combat, but aren't tacticians or optimizers, so short exciting combats with number tweaking behind the scenes is the pillar that supports narrative.

Last word is to take any anti-railroading advice with a grain of salt. Depending on everyone's style, having a linear plot you move folk along can be an advantage, and avoid frustrations.

And remember to have fun. If you aren't having fun while running the game, maybe a board game night could work, at least for a couple of months.

[SpectreCatcher]

Thanks everyone for the advice. Some of these things I have tried and not had much luck with, I did leave a lot of my attempts at engaging them as I felt the post was already pretty long.

I was doing the recaps for them, but then realized that they weren't paying attention or retaining info, so I switched it to them. I have also considered having one player be the scribe that does the recaps, but I felt that this could be taken as a punishment for actually paying attention, but I will consider this as well.

During combat, I have the initiative order on the front of the DM screen as well as letting them know who is up next and after that. Still I find that some of them stare at their character sheets on their turn for what feels like hours (probably a minute or two), I try to be patient and give them an opportunity to think it over but after a couple of minutes I ask them to pick something in the next 30 seconds or we are moving on. That doesn't go over well, so I have had the talk with the group as a whole and with individuals about prepping for their turn in combat. Yet here we still are.

I definitely agree that you don't need to watch a bunch of videos or read tons of material to learn to play D&D. However these were attempts at engaging them since I know that everyone learns differently and for some just playing the game will not help them learn. I've even tried one on one character coaching sessions, not so much telling them how to play their characters but more so letting them know what types of things they are capable of and ways to think about that character type.

I appreciate all the advice and this is one of the reasons that I fell in love with rpgs, the sense of community is amazing. I welcome any and all pieces of advice as I know that I am far from perfect. I do believe that it boils down to the most common suggestion so far...D&D is not the game for them. I will have more talks, both group and individual, and make more attempts but I do fear that it will come to me stepping down as their DM.

[SpectreCatcher]

Hey CharPixie, I didn't see your comment until after my response but I absolutely agree. We were running the pre-written Forge of Fury which basically amounts to "enter this area, kill things, avoid traps, repeat." So, I assumed that all the combat was part of the issue so I had decided to cut it short to start my homebrew which will have more social and explorative features, and they gave me a hard time for cutting it short. I even explained to them my reasoning and they still seemed upset by my decision. Kind of feeling like a no win situation.

[GlenSmash!]

I've learned that things run smoother when I rephrase things well for the players.

For example, if Bill took a swing at a goblin and nearly killed it, and Bob just got stabbed by another goblin, and Annie is up in the initiative order, instead of just saying "Annie, it's your turn." I'll say "Bill has just savaged a goblin with his battleaxe, but another goblin is getting the better of Bob. Annie what do you do?"

It takes time to learn how to do it well, but a few seconds of frame up done consistently will do loads more than having to stop and take 2 minutes every time you see a player has lost interest. It will also look less like you are picking on certain players.

Also, even outside of initiative, asking individual players "What do you do?" instead of just asking the group at large did a lot to get my players more invested in the game. So if you aren't doing that, I recommend it too.

[Isaire]

So you could try just not really prepping sessions any more. How much do you think you could run on the fly? It'll no doubt come off as a little wackier, but if the players don't take the game that seriously I don't think it'll be a problem. If you don't have the pressure of having to prepare things all the time and can just relax and make it more of something you find amusing fun in that way, it would save a lot of trouble I suspect. I think it's also fine if you say that you need a few minutes to prep something and they can talk amongst themselves for that time during the session, so again means you don't need to prep before and they get times to socialise and times to play. But its only an idea, I've seen total improvisation work for some of my DMs but the idea of running a game like that myself has always seemed a little more terrifying..

You could also try managing the pace of combat more. One way of looking at it is that it is the DMs fault if the pace slows down so that combat drags, and there are things the DM can do to get around it (like forcing strict turn times, giving a descriptive lead in to each players turn with a short description of everything that has happened / is about to happen) but I think it's much harder to do in practice, and ultimately if the players don't cooperate then it won't work. So you could ask them if they would be happy with trying a faster more frenetic combat system and implement a short timer with descriptive lead ins (timer doesn't tick down if players ask a question about how something works. They get 5 seconds to start talking to the DM or to choose an action). But no guarantee that they will say yes.

[iTreeby]

I would definitely try a different system like dungeon world. The players help to drive the story more and are more involved in world building. It might make people more invested. Obviously there are other things you can try like explaining your frustrations but a different style might suit your table.

[Isaire]

I was doing the recaps for them, but then realized that they weren't paying attention or retaining info, so I switched it to them. I have also considered having one player be the scribe that does the recaps, but I felt that this could be taken as a punishment for actually paying attention, but I will consider this as well.

During combat, I have the initiative order on the front of the DM screen as well as letting them know who is up next and after that. Still I find that some of them stare at their character sheets on their turn for what feels like hours (probably a minute or two), I try to be patient and give them an opportunity to think it over but after a couple of minutes I ask them to pick something in the next 30 seconds or we are moving on. That doesn't go over well, so I have had the talk with the group as a whole and with individuals about prepping for their turn in combat. Yet here we still are.


Oh, didn't see your response. So, two things:
One - Being scribe isn't a punishment if being scribe comes with perks! Extra xp / loot or something fun for the character.
Two - So, if one person takes a minute for their turn, the next person probably doesn't stay focused on the combat for a minute, so then they need a minute to understand what's going on and then a minute to decide, and so on. It's hard to keep focus on something where nothing is happening. Further to the timing + framing, you could try getting the group to decide actions for each character at the start of the round (give 15 seconds to discuss what bob should do, 15 seconds to discuss what alice should do, etc.) then run combat as a mad flurry of competing actions. A larger change, might be too much work..

[SpectreCatcher]

So you could try just not really prepping sessions any more. How much do you think you could run on the fly? It'll no doubt come off as a little wackier, but if the players don't take the game that seriously I don't think it'll be a problem. If you don't have the pressure of having to prepare things all the time and can just relax and make it more of something you find amusing fun in that way, it would save a lot of trouble I suspect.

I love this idea and has been the one thing in the back of my head giving me hope for improvement. I have definitely planned on running my homebrew campaign (which our next unscheduled session would start) more in this manner. I'm pretty good in general with improving and I believe that a more "organic" story where the characters get to write part of the world would be more engaging.

When I was just considering being a DM I was thinking that the pre-published adventures were what I would prefer, but once I start this one I realized that was not so much the case. I much prefer the freedom to mold things as I see fit, which I know I can do even in the pre-published stuff, but this was supposed to be a warm-up to get them used to their characters.


I've learned that things run smoother when I rephrase things well for the players.

For example, if Bill took a swing at a goblin and nearly killed it, and Bob just got stabbed by another goblin, and Annie is up in the initiative order, instead of just saying "Annie, it's your turn." I'll say "Bill has just savaged a goblin with his battleaxe, but another goblin is getting the better of Bob. Annie what do you do?"



This is a fantastic idea and absolutely something I will try. I think it will get a little getting used to, but I could see it paying off big time.



Further to the timing + framing, you could try getting the group to decide actions for each character at the start of the round (give 15 seconds to discuss what bob should do, 15 seconds to discuss what alice should do, etc.) then run combat as a mad flurry of competing actions.

Really love this idea as well.


Seriously, thank you everyone! The outpouring of support has really been helpful, in both alleviating some frustration and giving me new tactics to try out. I'm happy for any advice you have to offer. I was pretty hesitant to even post about this because I felt like I was probably just being ridiculous, but your support has been amazing! :smallsmile:

[ImproperJustice]

It sounds like this is an opportunity to be a labor of love to create a fun social activity for your wofe and friends.

My suggestion: less prep, more fun.

Ask everyone at the end of nest session to write down what they enjoy most from this time. Then adjust your work accordingly.
Find joy in their joy.
Your group may benefit more from a “monster of the week type campaign”.
Soda and pretzels and Saturday morning cartoon fun may need to be the order of the day, until seasons and schedules change and people want more.

In the meantime enjoy the relationships you can foster now.

[Xetheral]

It's a lot easier to control your own expectations than it is to change how your players want to interact with the game. Accordingly, I recommend adapting the game to the players, rather than the reverse.

Since the players don't want to quit the game, they're enjoying something about it. Your tasks as DM are to figure out what that is and give them more of it, and infer what else they might like and introduce them to it.

Here are some specific suggestions:

Run an episodic game where each session is only loosely linked to the last one. This reduces the need for players to remember previous events, and also more easily lets you schedule sessions when a player or two can't attend. Keys to this style involving ending each session in the same place, even if it sometimes requires narrating over the end of an adventure that takes longer than expected.
Have the players decide where they're going to go next session at the end of the previous one, and make them stick to that decision. This is one of the strengths of an episodic format: you can give the players tons of choice on what to do, but your prep time can be focused on what they've actually chosen, rather than what they might choose. Since you're always ending in the same spot, give the players a modest home base. Then you can provide opportunities for the players to improve their home either by spending gold (for mundane improvements) or going on specific quests (for hard-to-source improvements). This doesn't always have to be to a dungeon: a quest to a neighboring city to buy (e.g.) a telescope for the players' observatory can have fun interaction in the town, and some combat protecting the wagon and its fragile cargo on the way home. Make sure they benefit from improving their home (e.g. the telescope helps with divinations, is important to the plot in a good way, etc.) For any game where player engagement is low, say yes to whatever player-initiated ideas come up, and then make them work even better than the player expected. Outsized benefits from taking initiative will hopefully inspire other players to do the same, which increases enagement. If some players persistently don't want to engage, that's fine. Take notes on which elements of the game they seem to enjoy (usually combat for otherwise-disinterested players) and make sure they excel in their chosen role so that they still have fun. This can include tailoring combat encounters to the strengths of the combat-focused players' characters, and reducing the overall level of difficulty. Try to reframe the disrespect you feel as a simple wake-up call that your prep efforts to date haven't been focused in the right areas to maximize your group's (including your) enjoyment. If, after trying to adapt your game to your players, you still can't find an overlap between what you enjoy and your players enjoy (and if your player's enjoyment isn't sufficiently enjoyable for you on its own), then yes, cancelling the game is probably wise: you shouldn't make yourself suffer through something you don't enjoy.

[Nifft]

In terms of the long time between games, you could use that to your advantage.

1 - Pay players to summarize the session -- something like you see in journal / story time threads. (Payment is in game tokens, not real money.) This engages the players between sessions, and also helps inform you of how the players understood the events of the game session, which can help you correct your presentation.

2 - Party decisions & discussion happen online between games, and (if you pace it well) that can lead directly into the combat which begins each session. Basically ask them to make decisions about non-combat stuff via group chat / email / etc., and that both keeps the players engaged between the games, and allows you to have more non-combat focus which doesn't eat precious at-the-table combat time.

3 - Since party decisions happen ahead of the game session, you can focus your prep on whatever they've decided to do. This gives them genuine freedom and also gives you more time to prep, since they're making decisions over the course of a month instead of right at the table.

4 - Get a wiki, let players contribute. Keep character sheets on it and character art etc. Award game tokens for making great art if someone does that, or maybe even just finding great art if someone finds a lot of it. Put up maps; if there's an easy way to put markers on the maps so they can do a travelogue blog thing, do that. Make it easy for them to contribute & engage with the game between sessions.

[Asmotherion]

Just a thought, but maybe they are more interested in a less heavy game than you are offering, and your frustration comes from all the effort you're putting to stage something complicated nobody is interested in participating in.

Start smaller. Give them a regular Hack and Slash. Have them camp outside. RP among themselves. A random encounter with an adventure hook they might or might not pick up. See how it goes.

Starting too big and having them ditch the whole thing can be a big disapointment indeed. I've been there. The point of the first few sessions is to band the Party together, and make them a team. You have the world at your disposal to make sure of that. Call it "fate" or whatever, you have to make sure that their only viable option is to group together, and at the very least tolerate each other's presance.

I have a simple formula for that, which is similar to training a dog: You link positive behaviour (be with group) to reward (in the form of exp, fame, luck in gambling whatever), and negative behaviour (be alone on your own account) to punishment (unlucky in gambling, in an unfair encounter, loose your money etc). It is a bit manipulative, but you're suposed to somehow guide them. I sometimes give them a "prophecy" or "visions" to more religious types. They eventually get it.

Think of it like that: You are the force behind all their Patron Deities, and for one reason or an other, their Patron Deities have decided that their Fates are Banded together. You don't need to play this for the whole game, just for the first few sessions, 'till the party gets together as a group.

[brenilla1919]

I'd say try a more RP heavy game. Or having small RP parts I between certain plot points like hanging at camp or what meals did they make.(Depending on the rules you mey or mey not have left out). Perhaps have a small item for certain events. If you can(prob not for the situation) send a picture or an item in the game to a player between sessions just to chew on. And be shure to talk to them.

I'm at that same spot I am DMing a game right now and have only been in a few full games before hand.

[microstyles]

Further to the timing + framing, you could try getting the group to decide actions for each character at the start of the round (give 15 seconds to discuss what bob should do, 15 seconds to discuss what alice should do, etc.) then run combat as a mad flurry of competing actions. A larger change, might be too much work..

If you're interested in this, there's a "Speed Factor" combat option in DMG p270-271 that is pretty similar. Sounds pretty chaotic to me though, and the book claims it takes longer. I guess chaos could be fun too though...

[Bohandas]

So from what I'm getting, they are more interested in socializing then playing a serious game. You could accommodate this by playing single session games, or even playing a different rpg altogether. I've had a lot of fun playing Kobolds Ate My Babies, for example. Its the kind of game you can just bring out for a few hours and have a lot of fun.

Or Toon. Toon is simple.

[McSkrag]

@SpectreCatcher

I can't emphasize this enough: Put your marriage and friendships first and before your desire for more serious D&D second.

But I think you can find a solution everyone will like.

It sounds like everyone likes to hang out and socialize, but the kind of D&D you like isn't the right game for a few people. That's okay. You're not going to be able to change people no matter what you do to your D&D game.

So go with the social flow. Ask everyone what game they would like to play then do that. The actual game you play doesn't really matter. The important thing is you are all hanging out together and everyone is having fun.

But also don't short yourself. You still need a D&D fix, so go find some players that into the style of D&D you like.

That way everyone will win.

Good luck!

[NinaWu]

ask each of them how they would run an engaging campaign with the current group.