Options for a fallen Paladin of Slaughter?

[Callista]

One of the players in our group is playing a CE antipaladin in a mostly Neutral party.

When the character was first introduced, she was erratic, impetuous, and vicious, just as a paladin of slaughter should be. Our strategy was to point her at the latest threat and hope she didn't capriciously veer off course on the way toward pulverizing them.

Thing is, lately the character has been changing. She's started questioning whether her god really wants the world destroyed, or whether it's better to keep things intact until everyone accepts oblivion. She's been thinking before she acts. She's been using strategy. She actually used diplomacy--twice--not because she didn't want to kill things, but because she knew it'd work better.

She's still solidly evil, of course, but I'm starting to think she's drifting toward NE just by becoming more strategic and disciplined.

Trouble is, there are a lot of options for LG fallen paladins, but she's got this CE character who really isn't chaotic anymore, and I haven't heard of anything that would prevent the player from ending up with a severe power drop if she declares her character's had an alignment change.

Are there options? Or does she have to go on playing a NE-in-all-but-name antipaladin?

[OgresAreCute]

Time to brew up a whiteguard prestige class :smallamused:

[hamishspence]

You could rule something like "Paladins are like clerics - if you change alignment & deity, and atone for your past alignment, you have full powers"

So, just as a cleric of (Deity A) who changes to worshipping (Deity B) doesn't lose anything important - so the paladin wouldn't lose anything important.

Combine with Dragon Magazine's Variant Paladin rules (310 and 312 - 312 has the 3 Evil Paladin variants, 310 has all the others except LG)) and you can go straight from Antipaladin/Paladin of Slaughter (CE) to Corruptor (NE) - simply replacing appropriate class features.

Corruptors also have better code of conduct and associates rules - they're allowed to associate with good people.

Anti-Paladin (CE)

Code of Conduct:
An anti-paladin must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever commits a good act. He must work at all times to undermine the works of civilization and good peoples, and must never offer mercy or grant quarter unless he betrays his word within the next hour. He cannot join an organization, but he can perform services for others as long as the services are for pay and lead to chaos and devastation.

Associates:
An anti-paladin may adventure with any non-good alignment, but remains hateful and distrustful of any "allies". As soon as an ally is no longer useful, the anti-paladin usually kills her (or at the very least, sacrifices her for his own personal gain). He never knowingly associates with good characters, nor will he continue an association with someone who balks at senseless murder or refuses to reward him for his aid. An anti-paladin may only accept henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are chaotic evil. Anti-paladins always suffer the -2 penalty for cruelty when determining their effective Leadership score to recruit a cohort.


Corruptor (NE)
Code of Conduct:
A corruptor must be neutral evil, and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits a good act or an act that exposes his faith to an opposing religion and results in his detriment. He must strive to corrupt and taint all faiths apart from his own, with a special focus on good faiths. He is allowed to make whatever vows or declarations are required in order to maintain this deception, as long as he spends at least an hour each day in private prayer to his deity. He must strive to remain hidden, though the methods by which he undermines other faiths are left to his own discretion.

Associates:
A corruptor can adventure with characters of any alignment, but remains suspicious and wary of good-aligned characters. He tolerates the presence of good associates only as long as he is secretly working to convert them to evil. He will not continue an association with someone who consistantly offends against his moral code by resisting his efforts to convert them. A corruptor may only have henchmen, followers, or cohortswho are neutral evil.


Despot (LE)
Code of Conduct: A despot must be of lawful evil alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever commits a chaotic act (such as breaking a vow or contract or betraying an ally). She must at all times work to expand and grow her domain, either by virtue of the Leadership feat or by strong-arming those less fortunate and powerful than herself. She is allowed to abuse her sovereignty in any way she sees fit to further her own personal strength and glory, but she must protect and defend her subjects and allies from harm from other forces. Likewise, she may not overburden her subjects so that they cannot support her.

Associates:
A despot adventures only with characters of non-chaotic alignment and remains suspicious and wary of those who are not lawful. She will never knowingly associate with chaotic characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends against her moral code. This includes remaining in a group where she is not equal or superior to the highest-level member. A despot can adventure or associate with those of equal level, although doing so makes her more uncomfortable and irritable than normal. A despot may only accept henchmen, conhorts and followers who are lawful evil.

[ATHATH]

I also support the "switch him to the Corruptor variant of the Holy Warrior class" (only if the player wants to do that, of course) idea.

You COULD just let him take levels in the Antipaladin PrC (Paladins of Slaughter are still Paladin variants, so they can trade their levels in), which is for ANY Evil Paladin, not just CE ones.

[daremetoidareyo]

Diplomacy is about aggregating power. Chaotic people can absolutely use it as a tactic, especially if they are lying through their teeth half of the time

[tyckspoon]

Diplomacy is about aggregating power. Chaotic people can absolutely use it as a tactic, especially if they are lying through their teeth half of the time

Chaotic people can. Paladins of Slaughter can't, because their Code of Conduct basically demands they murderhobo at everybody they meet. It's functionally unplayable as written:


Additionally, a paladin of slaughter's code requires that she disrespect all authority figures who have not proven their physical superiority to her, refuse help to those in need, and sow destruction and death at all opportunities.

That last clause is the kicker - the rest of it gives you a generally unpleasant person who is not going to be easy to fit into a team, but you can kind of get away with doing the 'living weapon' thing and trying to keep them away from any important negotiations. The destruction and death part means you get somebody who goes "Hey, I'm bored, I'm gonna go murder that entire inn full of NPCs. What do you mean there's nobody else around? Ok then, I pick a fight with the party Wizard."

[Deophaun]

Thing is, lately the character has been changing. She's started questioning whether her god really wants the world destroyed, or whether it's better to keep things intact until everyone accepts oblivion. She's been thinking before she acts. She's been using strategy. She actually used diplomacy--twice--not because she didn't want to kill things, but because she knew it'd work better.

She's still solidly evil, of course, but I'm starting to think she's drifting toward NE just by becoming more strategic and disciplined.
I'm going to leave this here. It's a description of Graz'zt, a CE Demon Lord:

Although a master tactician and accomplished swordfighter, Graz’zt’s true strengths lie in seduction and guile. It is not by force alone, he realizes, that one can win control, but by controlling those who think they are in control.

[daremetoidareyo]

Chaotic people can. Paladins of Slaughter can't, because their Code of Conduct basically demands they murderhobo at everybody they meet. It's functionally unplayable as written:



That last clause is the kicker - the rest of it gives you a generally unpleasant person who is not going to be easy to fit into a team, but you can kind of get away with doing the 'living weapon' thing and trying to keep them away from any important negotiations. The destruction and death part means you get somebody who goes "Hey, I'm bored, I'm gonna go murder that entire inn full of NPCs. What do you mean there's nobody else around? Ok then, I pick a fight with the party Wizard."

Good point. That's dumb.

[hamishspence]

Chaotic people can. Paladins of Slaughter can't, because their Code of Conduct basically demands they murderhobo at everybody they meet.

Dragon Magazine's version is slightly different - but still doesn't play well with others:

'He must work at all times to undermine the works of civilization and good peoples"

"Will not continue an association with someone who balks at senseless murder" strongly implies that they must do at least some senseless murdering, and leave parties that object to it.

[Kish]

Any-Evil, No-Code, Just-Don't-Become-Nonevil blackguards were designed by someone who understood that you couldn't simply invert a paladin and get a functional character.

Paladins of Tyranny and Slaughter were not.

[Akal Saris]

Dragon Magazine's version is slightly different - but still doesn't play well with others:

'He must work at all times to undermine the works of civilization and good peoples"

"Will not continue an association with someone who balks at senseless murder" strongly implies that they must do at least some senseless murdering, and leave parties that object to it.

Wow, that's almost more strict than the actual paladin requirements!

"Sorry Ben, we've had some good times together, but I noticed you cringed when I went on that senseless murder rampage last night, and well, I just don't think I can associate with somebody who doesn't fully embrace my dedication to murder both sensible and senseless. No hard feelings?"

[Deophaun]

I just assumed that since the Paladin managed to make it through at least one session with the party still intact, that the code was softened significantly.

[Callista]

It's hasn't been that difficult. Spend most of the time in a war zone, give them plenty of outlets for killing enemies, and it's not too bad. It also helps that most of the party is Neutral and that the paladin's player is mature and good at RP.

Actually, I think it's exactly that maturity that's led to the paladin's alignment drift. The player wants to find reasons for her character not to go on a murderous rampage when it would completely mess up everything we've been doing; so instead she goes for non-destructive evil. Like, she bargains with a fiend to get the power she needs to solve the party's current dilemma. Or she tricks her way into the local hospital to start collecting the diseases from the infectious ward Typhoid-Mary style. At one point she ended up killing someone messily in front of a twelve-year-old girl, which would've been great antipaladin stuff if the guy hadn't been a serial killer and she deliberately sought him out so as to satisfy her bloodlust, and then rescued and recruited one of the guy's living captives for her evil god.

I'm starting to suspect that when even a good role-player has trouble keeping a paladin of slaughter full-on CE, maybe there's something a bit off about the concept.

[Yogibear41]

by becoming more strategic and disciplined.



Doesn't make you not Chaotic, it just makes you not stupid.

I have a strategic, well mannered, regal CE priest of Arioch who would just as soon sacrifice you for power and profit or even for fun, but he is also going to go about it in a smart way that is of low risk to himself. He also has no problems allying himself with npcs he could easily kill if they prove more useful to him by staying alive.

[Zaq]

Comp her a point or two of BAB as necessary and let her respec as an NE Incarnate.

[ATHATH]

Comp her a point or two of BAB as necessary and let her respec as an NE Incarnate.
Again, why wouldn't taking levels in the Blackguard PrC work? It accepts "Any evil" alignment, and the Paladin of Slaughter is technically a Paladin variant, so you can trade your PoS levels in for Blackguard ones.

[Ellrin]

Yeah, I have to throw my voice in behind the people saying just because the character isn't acting like a raving lunatic doesn't make them non-chaotic. A lot of players make the mistake that chaotic = insane in that generic, fictional representation of insanity as uncontrollable and unpredicatable. That's neither truly insane--true psychopaths and sociopaths are usually highly rational, even the super murdery ones--, nor chaotic.

I can't speak to the code of a paladin of slaughter, I've never actually looked into the class and the code sounds pretty dumb, just from reading the thread, but the fact that the character is putting his destructive urges on more of a slow-burner and is willing to talk to people to accomplish a long-term goal does not mean he's shifting alignment.

All chaos means in D&D terms is that you don't respect legal authority or social mores. It doesn't mean you don't recognize the fact that they exist, or even the necessity to work within them occasionally to get things done. "Planning" is not an inherently lawful act.

[ATHATH]

Yeah, I have to throw my voice in behind the people saying just because the character isn't acting like a raving lunatic doesn't make them non-chaotic. A lot of players make the mistake that chaotic = insane in that generic, fictional representation of insanity as uncontrollable and unpredicatable. That's neither truly insane--true psychopaths and sociopaths are usually highly rational, even the super murdery ones--, nor chaotic.

I can't speak to the code of a paladin of slaughter, I've never actually looked into the class and the code sounds pretty dumb, just from reading the thread, but the fact that the character is putting his destructive urges on more of a slow-burner and is willing to talk to people to accomplish a long-term goal does not mean he's shifting alignment.

All chaos means in D&D terms is that you don't respect legal authority or social mores. It doesn't mean you don't recognize the fact that they exist, or even the necessity to work within them occasionally to get things done. "Planning" is not an inherently lawful act.
Yeah, I support this sentiment too. If the player WANTS the Paladin to fall, though, definitely let them/help them.

[death390]

i feel it is necessary to drop the following two giantitp links; one for the alignment super thread and the other for CE specifically.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448812-Alignment-Handbook-Super-Thread

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?446414-No-Limits-No-Regrets-A-guide-to-the-Chaotic-Evil-alignment

the character might fight in more with some of the general listings even if they are not the "jerk" persona that it seems they were initially. perhaps she became an aggro-individualist, a radical, or even a experimentalist. all are options that would still fit within the CE profile but might allow for more leeway with her style.

also 4th section down there is a bit about anti-paladins that may be of interest.


also while slaughter may be the bread and butter for the character, topping the bread with jam (diplomacy) at time will allow the character to fulfill her mission better while bringing some variety.

[liquidformat]

At one point she ended up killing someone messily in front of a twelve-year-old girl, which would've been great antipaladin stuff if the guy hadn't been a serial killer and she deliberately sought him out so as to satisfy her bloodlust, and then rescued and recruited one of the guy's living captives for her evil god.

So Paladins of Slaughter and Tyranny get into some weird gray areas pretty quickly inside of any game and your example highlights this. The act of knowingly killing a serial killer is a good act and therefore in and of itself should be breaking their code since she specifically targeted a serial killer to kill. How do you get around that? Well by torturing the hell out of the guy and taking enjoyment in the act of killing him is a good start, and traumatizing some young kid in the process doesn't hurt either, but hard to say if this makes up for the fact that you are doing 'good'...

Are their workarounds to running a paladin of slaughter, I think so but they need to be handled carefully.

Lets jump into paladins of slaughter's code:

A paladin of slaughter must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits a good act. Additionally, a paladin of slaughter's code requires that she disrespect all authority figures who have not proven their physical superiority to her, refuse help to those in need, and sow destruction and death at all opportunities.
So there are some interesting things going on here.

-First a paladin of slaughter will follow any authority figure as long as they have proven that they have the strength to back up their demands no matter their alignment. This gives you role play wiggle room to not be CE stupid though also requires shows of force from new 'authority figures' to keep the paladin from actively murderhoboing their way through town.

-The second point of not helping those in need seems a bit silly but, for example tracking down and killing a serial killer would fall in violation of the spirit of this requirement if not blatantly be a violation.

-Third sow destruction and death at all opportunities, taken at face value this makes paladins of slaughter unplayable since it requires them to constantly slaughter everyone without discrimination. It also will play in direct contrast to the first tenant of the code since you are bound to follow authorities that have proven their strength... However, I don't think that is the correct interpretation of this line. Sowing death and destruction isn't the same as killing everyone you come across, it is instead instigating death and destruction. This can often be done by not killing anyone at all or choosing a target that will destabilize a situation. If you take a bit of time to figure out that there are two major groups in charge of a city that are on bad terms and then strategically kill members of both groups off and frame the other group leading to the situation breaking out into war between the two sides then you are succeeding more in your goals then randomly killing people on the street. Similarly choosing to support a rebellion inside a city killing off important officials while also wrecking the power structure of the rebellion is also a success.

I believe it is fine for her as a paladin of slaughter to not be killing at every possible moment her goal is to sow the seed of chaos and ruin that will lead to the highest death counts not to stumble around killing anything that moves. If killing those you are working with is going to derail your plans to plunge the city into chaos then it goes against your code to do so. Again chaotic evil is not and should not make you insane nor stupid it is simply tenants that your goal is to break down society and sow the seeds of death and destruction. If I can talk a group of unsatisfied workers into rioting and looting that is a win and I didn't have to kill anyone to do so. If I then spread the rumor that those rioters are indiscriminately killing people so the guards use deadly force to quell the riot that is an even greater win.

[hamishspence]

The act of knowingly killing a serial killer is a good act and therefore in and of itself should be breaking their code since she specifically targeted a serial killer to kill.


Killing "a fiend" is always a good act according to BoVD.

Killing "a villain" however, depends heavily on context and motivation.

For example, killing a creature of "consummate, irredeemable evil" purely for profit, is Neutral, not Good, according to BoVD. So, motive can turn a normally Good Deed into a Neutral one, or worse.

"Murder for pleasure" is a very Evil Corrupt act according to FC2, There is no "Except when the victim is evil" proviso there.

Thus, a case could be made that seeking out a serial killer specifically to "murder them for pleasure" is Evil, and will not cause a Paladin of Slaughter to Fall.

[ShurikVch]

Any-Evil, No-Code, Just-Don't-Become-Nonevil blackguards were designed by someone who understood that you couldn't simply invert a paladin and get a functional character.Speaking of which - is there something which will prevent a fallen Paladin of Slaughter to become a Blackguard, and use the "Fallen Paladins" clause?

[Zaq]

Speaking of which - is there something which will prevent a fallen Paladin of Slaughter to become a Blackguard, and use the "Fallen Paladins" clause?

This seems to be what ATHATH was suggesting.

[liquidformat]

Killing "a fiend" is always a good act according to BoVD.

Killing "a villain" however, depends heavily on context and motivation.

For example, killing a creature of "consummate, irredeemable evil" purely for profit, is Neutral, not Good, according to BoVD. So, motive can turn a normally Good Deed into a Neutral one, or worse.

"Murder for pleasure" is a very Evil Corrupt act according to FC2, There is no "Except when the victim is evil" proviso there.

Thus, a case could be made that seeking out a serial killer specifically to "murder them for pleasure" is Evil, and will not cause a Paladin of Slaughter to Fall.

I am just having a hangup in the seeking out a serial killer part of this. I agree killing an evil being isn't inherently good, and like I said torturing and enjoying it makes it an evil act. I suppose if you need to kill choosing a serial killer so that you don't have to deal with fallout rather than some random person was the pc's goal. However, because said pc is a paladin of slaughter specifically targeting a serial killer seems to me to be the issue that violates the third clause of their code. They are supposed to sow destruction and death, by specifically targeting a serial killer you are flying in the face of this tenant and reducing death and destruction.



Speaking of which - is there something which will prevent a fallen Paladin of Slaughter to become a Blackguard, and use the "Fallen Paladins" clause?

In general Blackguard is a prc choice for paladins of slaughter and tyranny since it synergies well and fast tracks getting spells. Specifically in this chaos where the pc falls from the path of slaughter, hopping into blackguard is a great idea and gives you everything back/even allows for exchange to a better aura.

[Callista]

I am just having a hangup in the seeking out a serial killer part of this. I agree killing an evil being isn't inherently good, and like I said torturing and enjoying it makes it an evil act. I suppose if you need to kill choosing a serial killer so that you don't have to deal with fallout rather than some random person was the pc's goal. However, because said pc is a paladin of slaughter specifically targeting a serial killer seems to me to be the issue that violates the third clause of their code. They are supposed to sow destruction and death, by specifically targeting a serial killer you are flying in the face of this tenant and reducing death and destruction.I believe she chose him because she knew the authorities wouldn't have a problem with it and would let her get away with it. She didn't particularly care about stopping him from killing; she just wanted an acceptable target. It struck me as a neutral act at best--"I want to kill somebody, but I don't want the cops on my back. Better kill somebody the cops want dead."


In general Blackguard is a prc choice for paladins of slaughter and tyranny since it synergies well and fast tracks getting spells. Specifically in this chaos where the pc falls from the path of slaughter, hopping into blackguard is a great idea and gives you everything back/even allows for exchange to a better aura.Blackguard is a good idea, I think! It would allow her to be more of a fiendish plotter type than a murderhobo. I'll suggest it. Right now, since the DM doesn't care that she's more NE than CE, we're treating it as sort of an unspoken house rule that she's still in her god's good book. Or should that be evil book?

[Ellrin]

she's more NE than CE

Once again, from the information you've given us, I have to stress that she really isn't. At all.

[Trampaige]

Like, she bargains with a fiend to get the power she needs to solve the party's current dilemma.

She literally already has made peaceful contact with an evil outsider, which is part of becoming a blackguard. The fiend could easily come back and offer a better path to evil to her.

The Hide 5 and Improved Sunder requirements are the part that sucks.

[ATHATH]

Heck, you could still work for your god (or at least a fiend that has sworn fealty to your god) as a Blackguard. The "falling" thing might be voluntary and even sanctioned.

You might even be able to "unfall" after getting into the PrC and use your normal Paladin of Slaughter abilities, the Blackguard ones, AND the "Blackguard that has levels in Paladin" ones, depending on how your DM rules it (you might be able to get just the first two on that list, as I think that's how I'd rule it).

[liquidformat]

Heck, you could still work for your god (or at least a fiend that has sworn fealty to your god) as a Blackguard. The "falling" thing might be voluntary and even sanctioned.

You might even be able to "unfall" after getting into the PrC and use your normal Paladin of Slaughter abilities, the Blackguard ones, AND the "Blackguard that has levels in Paladin" ones, depending on how your DM rules it (you might be able to get just the first two on that list, as I think that's how I'd rule it).

Ya pretty sure the only time you would get a DM to agree to keeping paladin of slaughter abilities and getting paladin level stack is if you are in a fondue and grill cheese sandwich type of game....

[Ellrin]

fondue and grill cheese sandwich

I'm sorry, that sounds amazing, where can I found out more?

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm sorry, that sounds amazing, where can I found out more?

Slap that bad boy in some corn batter with shredded bacon and deepfry it.

Cut itinto the most delicious shape (triangles, obviously) and serve with low salt bruschetta and some garlic/basil blended kefir.

Rum and coke on the side.

DM will now allow flaws

[Yogibear41]

Killing "a fiend" is always a good act according to BoVD.



"Always" is such a bad word

Is killing this fiend a good act?

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a

[hamishspence]

"Always" is such a bad word

Is killing this fiend a good act?

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a

By RAW, yes, a Paladin of Slaughter will Fall for killing her.

However - the act may also qualify as Murder - so a regular Paladin would also fall for killing her for inappropriate reasons.

That's one of the things that happens when you're both a Fiend and a Good Person.

[OgresAreCute]

By RAW, yes, a Paladin of Slaughter will Fall for killing her.

However - the act may also qualify as Murder - so a regular Paladin would also fall for killing her for inappropriate reasons.

That's one of the things that happens when you're both a Fiend and a Good Person.

Also one of the things that happen if you try to codify extremely dogmatic and inflexible thinking into game mechanics.

[Callista]

Also one of the things that happen if you try to codify extremely dogmatic and inflexible thinking into game mechanics.I think it's a natural result of alignment being a physical part of the multiverse. The idea that a LG paladin could kill a good-aligned fiend without it being an evil act--even though it's also something that would be completely out of character for most Good-aligned characters--is a result of that physically-real alignment system. Sure, it has to be house-ruled by the DM one way or the other; but it makes the game world more interesting regardless. A situation like that makes you realize there's a difference between D&D philosophical ethics and physical ethics--a small one, but it's there.

[Calthropstu]

Obviously the best option for a fallen paladin is to stand up. That -4 to hit and -4 to ac is pretty rough.

[Vaern]

Killing "a fiend" is always a good act according to BoVD.
I have a slight problem with the logic of this ruling.

There's this little thing called the Blood War which has been raging for basically forever. The demons of the Abyss and the devils of Baator have essentially been locked in the biggest and most violent ****-measuring competition that the multiverse has ever seen for all of eternity just to determine which side - chaotic evil or lawful evil - is the greatest evil.
Fiends are literally the physical embodiment of the essence of pure evil. Due to the Blood War, a hatred of other fiends and a drive to kill them is practically inherent to their existence and ingrained into their societies. Fiends slather the blood of lesser fiends on their toast in the morning. By the logic of "killing a fiend is always a good act," as a fiend fights in the war to prove that he is the greatest of evils, he only becomes more good and thus pushes himself farther from that goal with each bloody carcass he leaves in his wake.

[hamishspence]

Killing for bad reasons is murder - is Evil act, may combine with "killing fiend is good act" with the overall balance being Neutral overall, or even Evil.

Murder is a 5 pt Corrupt act, Cold Blooded Murder 6 pt, Murder for Pleasure 7 pt.

But there's no "Good act" chart - so if "killing a fiend" is a 1 pt good act or something similar, then the overall trend will be toward Evil rather than Good.

[Kish]

I think "'killing a fiend is always a good act' is an asterisking stupid thing to have put in print and should be dismissed out of hand" is a simpler approach with no down side, m'self.

[liquidformat]

I have a slight problem with the logic of this ruling.

There's this little thing called the Blood War which has been raging for basically forever. The demons of the Abyss and the devils of Baator have essentially been locked in the biggest and most violent ****-measuring competition that the multiverse has ever seen for all of eternity just to determine which side - chaotic evil or lawful evil - is the greatest evil.
Fiends are literally the physical embodiment of the essence of pure evil. Due to the Blood War, a hatred of other fiends and a drive to kill them is practically inherent to their existence and ingrained into their societies. Fiends slather the blood of lesser fiends on their toast in the morning. By the logic of "killing a fiend is always a good act," as a fiend fights in the war to prove that he is the greatest of evils, he only becomes more good and thus pushes himself farther from that goal with each bloody carcass he leaves in his wake.

Yathat was the first thing I thought of too, if killing a demon/devil were a good act then all demons and devils would be good by virtue of them killing each other and therefore be good. However, since they have now killed a good creature by virtue of killing demons and devils being a good act but since all demons and devils are now good because they killed demons and devils.... Wait wait I am getting lost in that paradoxical vicious logic circle. Need to add a null void statement or something in there...

[Vaern]

A fiend retains its evil subtype regardless of what its actual alignment is. They're still fiends, and killing fiends will always be a good act even if the denizens of lower planes somehow overtake celestials as forces of undeniable good in the world.