Alter forms: How much the caster needs know about the form?

[jadsonalmeida]

All guys are talking about how much OP is alterself and similar spells.
But, what the caster needs known about the form? Knowledge check? Needs a physical look?
There is a rule about that?

[Manyasone]

Yeah. Rule zero

[Deophaun]

No rules, and there really shouldn't be except for "that creature doesn't exist in this campaign." Because who do the restrictions impact? Your two most powerful shapeshifters -- Wizards and Druids -- are going to have the Knowledge skills to transform into whatever they want anyway. And wizards will have divinations if you require them to have actually seen the creature. You aren't impacting the Tier 1s with that, which means you are actually encouraging people to play Tier 1s instead.

[jadsonalmeida]

Thanks, friends!


No rules, and there really shouldn't be except for "that creature doesn't exist in this campaign." Because who do the restrictions impact? Your two most powerful shapeshifters -- Wizards and Druids -- are going to have the Knowledge skills to transform into whatever they want anyway. And wizards will have divinations if you require them to have actually seen the creature. You aren't impacting the Tier 1s with that, which means you are actually encouraging people to play Tier 1s instead.

In part this make sense. But, how will you transform into a creature that you never saw or known? I thing you need see or know with a knowledge check (house rule, course).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

But, how will you transform into a creature that you never saw or known?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUljHEpeIgs

It's magic.

[Deophaun]

In part this make sense. But, how will you transform into a creature that you never saw or known?
Your question makes sense if the caster is telling polymorph to turn him into a war troll. After all, the caster should know that war trolls exist in order to issue that specific instruction. However, if the caster instead just tells polymorph to turn him into a nigh-unstoppable tank of a giant and as a result of that is turned into a war troll, then it doesn't matter if the caster knows war trolls exist or not.

[Nifft]

You need to eat at least your own body weight in creatures of the target form.

This is why there are no vegetarian Druids (not until Plant Wild Shape level).

[Malphegor]

Technically, you can transform into things that you actually know nothing about in-character. For example, I have a wizard, and turn into a troglodyte for the AC, despite never having seen one in his life. We can abstract that as something he read about once, but that's a retcon.

If it didn't slow my game more than the already distractible bunch are (sometimes it feels like I'm the DM and the actual DM is half-ready to derail everything at a drop of a hat) I'd suggest for polymorph stuff it'd require a knowledge check on new forms, or a random table for additional accidental transformations for flavour on half-remembered transformations. i.e. you turn into a goblinoid, well, you are one, but you still have your regular face.

But yeah, you can sort of assume your wizard knows about it (which could be fun to screw with a DM. "you don't know anything about these crea-" ok I'll just transform into one then since out of character I know, I'll walk a mile in their shoes!)

[Saintheart]

Thanks, friends!

In part this make sense. But, how will you transform into a creature that you never saw or known? I thing you need see or know with a knowledge check (house rule, course).

How do you, the GM, know what the character has experienced in his life before he started his campaign? Isn't that in the player's remit for the most part?

Less facetiously and more to the point -- I think you're asking the wrong question. I think the real question you're asking: how do I stop this guy transforming into something that utterly borks my beautifully-planned combat encounter and lets the team coast to victory, and doing so consistently?

My answer to that as a DM is to propose another question in response: why are you penalising the fact a player presumably took some time researching - either by leafing through the Monster Manuals or by consulting a Wizard or Druid Handbook - methods that will keep his character alive or help him contribute to the team's goals? Why are you penalising, in effect, a player's creativity? One of the ideas of roleplaying is that the players/characters come up with creative solutions to the problems you set for them. Protip: the encounters you set for people are not puzzles. Puzzles have only one solution, and the principal thrill you get out of a puzzle is identifying the solution. Encounters you set for RPG players are problems. Problems don't necessarily have one solution, and when your players do something unexpected which makes for an elegant solution, there is nothing more destructive of a DM's authority and friendships than sudden changes to the encounter on the fly in order to force the encounter to play out the way the DM wants. I have personal experience on that, I fiated a Rule Zero through in these sorts of circumstances and it damn near exploded my entire campaoign.

Is your concern that the other players will get bored as the shapeshifting player trounces every one of the combat encounters so they don't feel they "contribute"? My question in response to that would be - have any of the players had any sort of issue with it thus far? What have they said? How do you know they feel trivialised unless you ask them all?

In general - and it's a very big in general - the sort of player who's optimising so he knows at the drop of a hat what creature to turn into on what occasion is also the sort of guy who has enough social skills to know to restrain himself. Shapeshifting is one of the most breakable elements in D&D depending on the levels at which the game is played, and most people who run strong characters like that are often aware of it. It may be as simple as talking to your prospective shapeshifter and having a gentlemens' agreement that you know he'll be able to throw a lot of solutions at you that you hadn't anticipated, and to just ask him to bear that in mind.

Other measures that might help? Don't give individual XP. Give it per encounter and share it out equally. Either the other players will enjoy the coasting, or your shapeshifting player will realise he's carrying the entire team and maybe change his approach. Another measure? Don't make it all about combat. Specifically design encounters designed towards the other non-shapeshifting players.