Build ideas for 13s and 12s in attributes

[alexfitzrose]

Reading a lot of guides and theory building a lot of characters made me realize I do enjoy the standard array for clear strengths, helpful third and fourth attributes, and a weakness to help steer my build away trying to be too good at everything.

But that got me thinking: what would I do with three 13s and three 12s? Is there a class that can take advantage of such an array? Is Vuman mandatory because feats are the only way to define a strength for the character to lean on?

Give me your best Average Hero build!

[fbelanger]

I prefer 5 13 and a 10, and use standard human to have 5 14.
I would go for rogue, and take the skilled feat at level 4.

[R.Shackleford]

Reading a lot of guides and theory building a lot of characters made me realize I do enjoy the standard array for clear strengths, helpful third and fourth attributes, and a weakness to help steer my build away trying to be too good at everything.

But that got me thinking: what would I do with three 13s and three 12s? Is there a class that can take advantage of such an array? Is Vuman mandatory because feats are the only way to define a strength for the character to lean on?

Give me your best Average Hero build!

Average Hero?

You don't need Human. Casting xlasses like cleric, druid, or wizard can ignore their ability scores.

Rogues and Bards get Expertise. With a 13 in Str, they will do better at Athletics than fighters, Paladins, and sometimes Barbarians.

Even staying away from Expertise Athletics... Actor + Expertise is a non-combatant's wet dream.

Druid's wildshape.

Life Cleric does well with 13 Wis. Not as great as higher wis, but it does well.

Strogue with moderately armored, shield master, and sentinel is one of the best martial controller/defender builds and they typically don't go past 14 Strength.

[Willie the Duck]

5x13+normal human or 12x3, 13x3, then Vuman with a half-feat both make a lot of sense. Making two of your stats which start at 14 be Con and Dex help with survivability. I have done this before with a fighter-rogues (either a light dip in fighter for medium armor, or light dip into rogue for added skills and expertise.

It isn't as horrible as it sounds. You do kind of eventually want a fairly decent main stat (presumably Dex), but the 16 can wait until level 4 or 5. It does take a very specific type of play or DM to make this an intuitive choice, but it can readily be done, and can be a lot of fun.

[Twigwit]

An interesting thought experiment. Essentially, we just have to answer this question: what classes, features and spells rely on Ability Scores the least? I've come up with a few here:

Circle of the Shepherd Druid: Your Bear Spirit Totem is functions at full strength, as it only scales with your Druid Level, not scores. Conjure Animals/Woodland Beings/Elemental/Fey don't rely on your saves directly, only on your CON save for concentration, so V. Human for Warmage/Resilience-CON fixes that.

College of Glamour Bard: What thread on jacks of all trades would be complete without the Bard? Glamour has the most bang-for-buck Bardic Inspiration, so to me it's the most Ability Score agnostic. Alternatively Lore can get you some choice spells. Healing word remains powerful since the draw is the BA cast, not the amount healed, and many spells you can take happen without an attack or save needed (heat metal, sleep, invisibility, etc.)

School of Divination Wizard: Any Wizard can be built around a lackluster stat array, Wizard is just that versatile, but the Diviner gets special mention because Portent has the potential to make anything fail its saving throw against your harshest control spells, no matter how easy your save is.

[nickl_2000]

Moon Druid is the most obvious choice to me. You use your spell slots to cast buffs and summons that really don't care about your ability scores, then you wildshape into something and care even less about your ability scores. With a Moon Druid, you could be a character that is all 9s and still contribute.


Revised Ranger Beastmaster is another solid choice. You take archery fighting style to add +2 to your ranged attacks and focus on that to hit from a distance since your AC won't be the best. As for Ranger spells you can focus on spells that don't use a save, Absorb Elements, Beast Bond, Goodberry, Fog Cloud, Hunter's Mark, Spike Growth, etc. At level 4 you boost your Dex to +2 to make your attacks better and AC improve by 1.

[Kadesh]

VHuman Fey Chain Warlock 3+/Mastermind or Lore Bard with Inspiring Leader, Observant and possibly Dungeon Delver Expertise picks up your weakspots, if you don't want to up your Stats, while non ability score based options are both your bread and butter, while chain familiar gives you the ability to spend 10gp and a spell slot every short rest for an ablative scout you can see with.

Look for an Ioun Stone of Mastery, and a Cloak of 19 Charisma ASAP.

[tieren]

Go Scout rogue for 3 levels, then knowledge cleric for 1 level and lore bard for 4 levels, take prodigy feat at bard 4.

You now have 17 of 18 skill proficiencies, 9 with expertise. (and Jack of All Trades gives you half proficiency on the last skill)

Advance rogue to 12 for another 2 expertise and reliable talent and bard to 6 for some magical secrets, cleric 2 for the channel divinity.

With reliable talent and 11 expertise skills you auto pass virtually every check at DC 24 or below (assuming 14's across the board).

Scout rogue 12/ knowledge cleric 2/ lore bard 6

[Eradis]

Moon Druid is the most obvious choice to me. You use your spell slots to cast buffs and summons that really don't care about your ability scores, then you wildshape into something and care even less about your ability scores. With a Moon Druid, you could be a character that is all 9s and still contribute.

A Firbolg or a Changeling there and you got yourself a pretty awesome nobody as you can literally change into about anything and anyone every town you pass. How I wish Pixies were back to make use of that lil' pair of wings as a rogue with that shapeshifter fest.

[GlenSmash!]

V human taking a half feat can get that to 14, 14, 14, 12, 12, 12 which is decent at anything. Put one of the 14s in main stat and one in con and you'll be a single -1 in rolls behind somebody you started out with a 16 in main stat.

I would go Battlemaster Fighter. 14, 12, 14, 12, 14(Resilient Wisdom), 12 for a strength build. 12, 14, 14, 12, 14(Resilient Wisdom), 12 for a Dex build. Precision Attack will make up for the -1 and you'll still be able to max Strength or Dex by 8.

[MaxWilson]

Reading a lot of guides and theory building a lot of characters made me realize I do enjoy the standard array for clear strengths, helpful third and fourth attributes, and a weakness to help steer my build away trying to be too good at everything.

But that got me thinking: what would I do with three 13s and three 12s? Is there a class that can take advantage of such an array? Is Vuman mandatory because feats are the only way to define a strength for the character to lean on?

Give me your best Average Hero build!

My Go-to here would be a Moon Druid with lots of feats, Cavalier/Diviner tank with Blur, armored Sorlock with a single level of Forge Cleric for AC and spells, or tanky Str HAM Fighter 1/Enchanter X frontliner. Avoid monks and mocklocks, warbearians, paladorlocks, foreigners, Sharpshooters, and other very stat-dependent classes. Don't try to be the party's primary damage dealer, instead try to be the guy who can sacrifice a round of damage to set up a winning tactical situation (e.g. grapple+ prone in Earth Elemental form w/ Prodigy (Athletics)) and maybe brings a bunch of healing and movement capabilities to the party too.

Ancestor Barbarian/Moon Druid would make sense too if you don't mind having no future at high levels. Watch out though for bonus action clog.

[Worden]

As a champion of mediocrity, you can multiclass into many classes, pick things that don't benefit from ability score modifiers in each of them. If they are spellcaster classes, you will be able to upcast most your spells. You can probably be a decent healer/support person. You will know many semi useful low level spells.

As a rogue or a bard, your low ability scores will matter less if you want to be a skill monkey as proficiency and reliable talent takes charge. If you absolutely have do some harm, you can use almost surely to hit attacks with a battle master manuever or a war cleric channel divinity

[MaxWilson]

As a champion of mediocrity...

Hey. 12s and 13s isn't mediocrity. That's the human norm in everything--sort of a well-rounded mildly heroic everyman and Jack of All Trades. Arguably James Bond isn't too much higher than that.

Champion of mediocrity would be something like straight 10s: there's nothing to distinguish you from the average 0th level commoner except class levels. (Which, to be fair, are hugely important. James Bond apparently has Expertise in seduction.)

[Worden]

Hey. 12s and 13s isn't mediocrity. That's the human norm in everything--sort of a well-rounded mildly heroic everyman and Jack of All Trades. Arguably James Bond isn't too much higher than that.

Champion of mediocrity would be something like straight 10s: there's nothing to distinguish you from the average 0th level commoner except class levels. (Which, to be fair, are hugely important. James Bond apparently has Expertise in seduction.)

I am doing my comparisons to other PCs not the general populace. Most PCs will have at least one thing they are very good at (15-16 from level 1). Compared to that 13 is pretty mediocre

[tieren]

V human taking a half feat can get that to 14, 14, 14, 12, 12, 12 which is decent at anything. Put one of the 14s in main stat and one in con and you'll be a single -1 in rolls behind somebody you started out with a 16 in main stat.

I would go Battlemaster Fighter. 14, 12, 14, 12, 14(Resilient Wisdom), 12 for a strength build. 12, 14, 14, 12, 14(Resilient Wisdom), 12 for a Dex build. Precision Attack will make up for the -1 and you'll still be able to max Strength or Dex by 8.

You know, if you went rogue 12 fighter 8 you would get 7 more asi which could turn that into 20, 16, 14, 14, 14, 14

[GlenSmash!]

You know, if you went rogue 12 fighter 8 you would get 7 more asi which could turn that into 20, 16, 14, 14, 14, 14

I know right?

Such a mediocre character

People seriously overstate the value of starting with a 16 in main stat over the long run.