[3.5] Strict Monk/Swordsage build help?

[Baelzar]

We're starting a new campaign this weekend - very low magic (no casters to start with), and limited class choice. It's an experiment.

Level: Starting at 1st, ending under 10th very likely.
Race: Human only
Class: Must start as Monk that can eventually multiclass into Swordsage. That's it. No other class options.
Stats: 28-point buy (DMG)
Books: Core + whatever we can get DM-approved from other books.

I need to come up with a reasonable build, and I haven't any experience with Swordsage. Any suggestions re: when to dip? I guess just a single level into SS gets me some goodies.

[Nifft]

How much Monk are you required to take before you're allowed to leave it forever? It's likely that the fewer Monk levels, the better.

What else have you gotten DM-approved in terms of sources, so far?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Are you using the unarmed swordsage?
Are you using fractional base attack?

If you're using fractional base attack or unarmed swordsage, going monk 1/swordsage X seems like a good idea. Monk 2, if you want another bonus feat. You don't want to wait for your actual class features, do you?

If you're not using fractional base attack or unarmed swordsage, I could see monk 4/swordsage X. The extra two monk levels aren't costing you more base attack, and you get 1d8 unarmed damage with Ki Strike (magic), which might be very necessary in a low-magic campaign. You also get to pick second-level maneuvers with your first swordsage level, which gets you a few more 2nds than you would have as monk 1/swordsage 4.

However, in general, less monk is better.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Monks have one class feature that is insanely abusable. Their unarmed strikes count as manufactured AND natural weapons, so abuse that fact as hard as you can (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863).

I'd go with as many ACFs as you can, especially martial monk 2 (Unearthed Arcana/SRD Dragon #310). Note that monk bonus feats (including martial monk fighter feats) ignore prereqs, so look into taking Exceptional Deflection and Infinite Deflection to make yourself immune to all ranged attacks. Possibly something like Dragon Magazine #343's Improved Whirlwind Attack and Distant Shot. Maybe Improved Combat Reflexes to uncap AoOs + Karmic Strike + Evasive Reflexes, to make yourself all but immune to melee attacks when you are aware of them, have enough reach to make an AoO, and can take 5' steps.

[BassoonHero]

Is the DM aware that the monk is the weakest core class and among the most dependent on multiple ability scores and on magic items? If that's the point of the campaign, then so be it, I guess.

[flappeercraft]

Monks have one class feature that is insanely abusable. Their unarmed strikes count as manufactured AND natural weapons, so abuse that fact as hard as you can (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863).

I'd go with as many ACFs as you can, especially martial monk 2 (Unearthed Arcana/SRD). Note that monk bonus feats (including martial monk fighter feats) ignore prereqs, so look into taking Exceptional Deflection and Infinite Deflection to make yourself immune to all ranged attacks. Possibly something like Dragon Magazine #343's Improved Whirlwind Attack and Distant Shot. Maybe Improved Combat Reflexes to uncap AoOs + Karmic Strike + Evasive Reflexes, to make yourself all but immune to melee attacks when you are aware of them, have enough reach to make an AoO, and can take 5' steps.

Seconded. One correction though, Martial Monk is from Dragon Magazine #310 actually. I would reccomend the Intuitive Attack feat (BoED) to be slightly less MAD.


Is the DM aware that the monk is the weakest core class and among the most dependent on multiple ability scores and on magic items? If that's the point of the campaign, then so be it, I guess.

Well the commoner is actually also from Core

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Seconded. One correction though, Martial Monk is from Dragon Magazine #310 actually.Ah, right. Thanks.


I would reccomend recommend the Intuitive Attack feat (BoED) to be slightly less MAD.That's a good idea, but I wouldn't use a prereq-less feat on it. Seems a bit of a waste, to me.

[flappeercraft]

Ah, right. Thanks.

That's a good idea, but I wouldn't use a prereq-less feat on it. Seems a bit of a waste, to me.

Yeah I never said it had to be the prereq-less, honestly that should be something like Weapon Supremacy or similarly powerful feats that are also hard to obtain. Intuitive Attack could be obtained with the third level feat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeah I never said it had to be the prereq-less, honestly that should be something like Weapon Supremacy or similarly powerful feats that are also hard to obtain. Intuitive Attack could be obtained with the third level feat.Weapon Supremacy sucks. Especially for unarmed strikes. All you get is a +5 bonus to attack for a full-round action, which would only be useful for a build that heavily abuses decisive strike, and even then, not that much. Sooooo many feats would be vastly better that using martial monk for Weapon Supremacy is, quite frankly, utter stupidity.

[Particle_Man]

With that combo it is a shame you can't prestige into Shadow Sun Ninja, but oh well.

I think your best bet is monk 0/SS 10 to be honest. So how many levels of monk do you have to take, minimum?

[Baelzar]

How many levels of Monk required?
I don't know. I suspect a few, but it's part of the adventure. We won't have the opportunity to multi-class right away.
Are you using the unarmed swordsage?
I'll have to get that approved. If yes, I won't be able to start as unarmed swordsage.
Are you using fractional base attack?
No, but we should. Another thing I will bring up. Also fractional saves. Where's the easiest explanation of these that I can show the group?
Other than core...?
DM approval on a case-by-case basis.

Let's say worst case - Monk then Swordsage - maybe Monk4 (Ki strike) then SS?

The DM isn't an insane tyrant; we're trying out the lower tiers with some armor/shield changes and other buffs. The starting characters are Monk/SS, Paladin/Cleric, Thief/Wizard, Fighter/Warblade, Bard/Sorcerer and and NPC Ranger/Druid. I can also play Ranger/Druid instead...

[flappeercraft]

Weapon Supremacy sucks. Especially for unarmed strikes. All you get is a +5 bonus to attack for a full-round action, which would only be useful for a build that heavily abuses decisive strike, and even then, not that much. Sooooo many feats would be vastly better that using martial monk for Weapon Supremacy is, quite frankly, utter stupidity.

Well remember that +5 on a flurry of blows on low levels is nothing to scoff at, gaining a passive continuous +1 untyped to AC while not very good is a nice benefit and you get to treat any one attack roll per round as a natural 10. It might not be the best feat but it's a decent one especially for low levels which is what it seems this campaign will be mostly part of.

[Rebel7284]

Some thoughts.
Between Invisible Fist and Cloak of Deception, you can be invisible a fair amount in combat.

If you end up stuck as a monk for a while, The level 7 Dark Moon Disciple monk substitution level grants the monk—in exchange for the supernatural ability wholeness of body—the supernatural ability shadow blend. This ability is amazing.

[Epic Legand]

Monk 1 or 2 then all SS. Fluff wise a SS IS A MONK, so if he has read the book at all, it should not be a hard fit, ask for the unarmed variant to allow progress of your unarmed damage. The unmentioned perk of SS/monk is ...SUN SCHOOL.( requires flurry and BAB 4, gives a FREE attack with every teleport. then pick the right discipline, and tons of teleports per day. Also look into Kung Fu genius or its variants...become INT based instead of wisdom, less mad, more skills. Also Keen Intellect switches will saves and several key skills to INT. A very non equipment based build.

He is allowing a Cleric,Wizard, Druid and a Sorcerer....all of who will be MORE powerful in a magic low environment. Can YOU buy a ring of feather falling? No? The Sorcerer will have it as a choice of one of his dozen spells by like level 5, just as a matter of class features.

Just a few idle thoughts. I have run a low magic campaign before, it UPS the relative power of casters vs martials. I like SS and Monks, a LOT, but do not be confused, you are looking at one of the weakest choices at the table. In a world of low magic, you will just be one of a million guys who hits things, while each caster will be "special" be default, thus having a social advantage as well. Plus things like Charm Person, Invisibility or Read Minds will all be more effective, because of their relative scarcity, and the lack of basic tools to defeat them.

[animewatcha]

Normal monk or can it be something like Wild-monk or Chaotic monk? Type of monk can dramatically change build.

[Darrin]

Monk 2 is front-loaded with enough... I was going to say "goodies" but that's debatable... well, that's usually a popular jumping-off point. Those two bonus feats can be swapped around for different feats via the Variant Fighting Styles in Unearthed Arcana, or using the alternate rules in Oriental Adventures (see OA page 19 and page 79).

If you're forced to stick with Monk longer... see if you can get Mantis Leap from Sword & Fist approved, and then stick around for Monk 7, go into Swordsage for 2 levels, and then take Mantis Leap at level 9. This feat allows you to turn any "normal jump check" into a charge. You can then make three charge attacks per round: two move actions, and Sudden Leap as a swift action. If you're allowed to take soulmelds from Magic of Incarnum, you can get Pounce with natural weapons via Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws and Open Least Chakra: Hands.

[BassoonHero]

The DM isn't an insane tyrant; we're trying out the lower tiers with some armor/shield changes and other buffs. The starting characters are Monk/SS, Paladin/Cleric, Thief/Wizard, Fighter/Warblade, Bard/Sorcerer and and NPC Ranger/Druid. I can also play Ranger/Druid instead...

It might be helpful if you describe the other changes that your DM is making.

The mix of characters you describe is likely to be horribly unbalanced, particularly in a low-magic game, and you've drawn the short straw. Ranger/Druid would be a significant upgrade.

As a Monk/SS, assuming that you won't be able to start Swordsage at level 3, Monk 4/SwordSage X is your best bet. If you miss out on that, things get progressively worse. You'll want to mix-and-match alternative class features to try to get value out of the monk levels, but that sounds like the kind of thing the DM is trying to prevent. You can get some mileage out of helping the bard to optimize Inspire Courage, though that is also subject to DM veto.

Given the poor stats (which disproportionately hurt non-casters) and shortage of magic items (ditto), your top priority is reducing multiple ability dependency. Epic Legand's advice is spot-on: Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk would be excellent along with Keen Intellect. Alternatively, you could go all-in on Wis with Intuitive Attack. If the DM vetoes all of these, then your options are very bad. You could ditch Str and go the stealth route, though the rogue will likely do it better. If you plan to fight in melee, then you'll need Con to help offset your awful AC. Str would probably be next-best, with moderate Dex and probably bad Wis.

[Nifft]

The DM isn't an insane tyrant; we're trying out the lower tiers with some armor/shield changes and other buffs. The starting characters are Monk/SS, Paladin/Cleric, Thief/Wizard, Fighter/Warblade, Bard/Sorcerer and and NPC Ranger/Druid. I can also play Ranger/Druid instead...[/COLOR]

Armor & shield buffs obviously won't help a Monk, though nerfs might indirectly help the Monk. Not sure which your DM is doing.

Bard/Sorcerer should probably just stay Bard forever; it's not a bad class at all, and having a single good caster level is probably better than having two bad caster levels in two separate delayed-access classes.

Ranger/Druid might be your best bet mechanically -- Druids are awesome, even with 2 dead Ranger levels dangling behind them like a vestigial tail.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Given your extremely poor class combo (as monk and swordsage don't combine well at all, unless you get really creative), take as many feats to get yourself magic items as you can to help make up for it a bit. Ancestral Relic, Item Familiar, and Landlord (to turn a large sword-shaped building into your "stronghold" that you then enhance as a sizing/morphing weapon, and then add other magic item abilities via the rules in the MIC; preferably this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook/page11&p=23285432#post23285432), and say it's to keep up with the druid's wild shaping, the wizard's polymorphing, and the general crappiness of being a monk).

If your DM complains, hey, you're an extremely weak class that's extremely reliant on magic items just to function reasonably, trapped in a low-magic-item world.

[Baelzar]

LOL, you're convincing me. What about Ranger/Druid in the same circumstance?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

LOL, you're convincing me. What about Ranger/Druid in the same circumstance?Minimal ranger levels (preferably zero), then consult the handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook).

Do note that the entire party could be druids and each fill a different party niche.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, it's the same kind of trick, where you try to keep your ranger level as low as possible, in order to fit in more of the powerful druid levels.

To give an idea of the difference in power:
A 9th-level ranger can make a Rapid Shot full attack at +7/+7/+2.
A 9th-level druid can summon a 360' radius tornado for 90 minutes.

Tornados are CR 10, by the book, and will pick up and throw about Large and smaller creatures, for 1d10*6d6 damage each (avg. 115.5).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you expect almost no magic items at all, I would suggest Vow of Poverty. See if the DM will allow you to take Magic of Incarnum soulmeld-based and feats instead of [Exalted] ones, though few classes get as much out of exalted feats (or VoP in general) as druids do. Even so, MoI feats are much better overall. Just don't take any other Vow feats until you've researched them thoroughly.

If you'd rather have magic items, do as I suggested with the magic item feats. And perhaps look here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568942-Feats-that-Grant-Scaling-Magic-Items) while you're at it.

If you simply [I]must have a couple of ranger levels, ACF the crap out of it, as much as you can. Make sure everything you get is compatible with wild shape forms, like barbarian movement.

[edit] Also, do a retrain into full druid ASAP unless there's an ACF you just have to have. Maybe see if you can swap out the wild shape ranger ACF for the shapeshifting druid ACF instead? A 1st level ranger that can shapeshift into a werewolf form would be pretty neat.

[Telonius]

Hm, Monk/Swordsage... is Sleeping Tiger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sleepingTiger) available? Two levels of Monk (to go along with Swordsage) is probably worth it for the feat. The difference between a Swordsage 18 and a Swordsage 19 is 1 maneuver known and +1 to BAB. That's probably worth it for the bonus to initiative you'd get from the second-level feat. Weapon Finesse plus Shadow Blade means you can more or less ignore Strength and focus on Dex. Keep in Assassins' Stance and tack on Craven if it's available. Your higher saves (from Monk) can let you eat the penalty to saves vs. Fear without too much of a problem. Play it as a Sneak/(small-s) scout with extra tricks from maneuvers. You can't skillmonkey as well as a Rogue, but focus on your stealth skills and you should be fine. Let Wizard/Rogue handle the traps.

[Kayblis]

You could ask your GM about class features stacking. You can build a very decent Wis-based Monk/SS if you pick Intuitive Attack as soon as possible(level 3, without Martial Monk). The feature stacking question is because both Monk and SS get Wisdom to AC, so if you go that route you'll have Wisdom on your to-hit, on your AC twice and will free up most of the burden you currently have on Strength and Dexterity so you can pump Constitution a bit. It's a simple thing to tweak, and you still can get most tricks cited above.

For jumping points, I second Monk 2/Swordsage X. You'll get Evasion and a couple nice feats to help you on lower levels, and Maneuvers come online as soon as you get your Wis to hit. Unarmed Swordsage is pretty much a must on this kind of build, as you're already tied to no armor and shields by Monk for no good reason. Fractional saves/BAB is good for any bad class, as your multiple medium BAB classes don't hurt so much. By level 3 here, you actually hit as reliably as a Fighter thanks to SS's Weapon Focus at level 1. Stunning Fist also doesn't suck now that your save isn't 10, so you can rely on it thanks to Wisdom. Very little optimization is required in this build, because most of your utility comes from maneuvers and you only really need one feat - Intuitive Attack.

EDIT: With 28 point-buy, you can have 18 WIS, 16 CON and 10 on either STR or DEX(I recommend STR). That's a decent HP, a +4 to hit and a +7 to AC by level 4, or +3 AC by level 1. Stunning Fist starts at DC 14 and increases every even level. The first two levels will be painful, and you'll have to rely on your teammates to kill stuff - but again, they are by far the fastest levels in the game. Alternatively, 16/16/12/12 is better early game with little loss in to-hit/SF to gain damage and Reflex later on.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You could ask your GM about class features stacking. You can build a very decent Wis-based Monk/SS if you pick Intuitive Attack as soon as possible(level 3, without Martial Monk). The feature stacking question is because both Monk and SS get Wisdom to AC, so if you go that route you'll have Wisdom on your to-hit, on your AC twice and will free up most of the burden you currently have on Strength and Dexterity so you can pump Constitution a bit. It's a simple thing to tweak, and you still can get most tricks cited above.Wis to AC x2 doesn't work. Monk gets it while wearing no armor at all, while swordsage only gets it while wearing light armor.

Could you maybe be an arcane swordsage? It'd definitely make up for the bleh it would otherwise be. Use martial monk with tons of ACFs for prereq-less feat abuse and unarmed strike abuse, while arcane swordsage would let you have all-day arcane casting (albeit rather limited on spells known). If you take options to make your monk features use Int instead of Wis, that'd be a lot less MAD, for sure.

Could also do a psionic version of the arcane swordsage. Might be a fun homebrewing experiment...

[Doctor Awkward]

Monk is a 3 level class.

Those levels are 1, 2, and 6.
If you cannot leave monk before level 2, it is generally worthwhile going the long haul and picking one of the ridiculously good ACF's.

If for some reason you will be stuck beyond level 6:
Start with Dark Moon Disciple from the Champions of Valor web enhancement. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a)

At level 3 you can replace Still Mind with Darkvision. Noteworthy as you must be human.
At level 7 you replace Wholeness of Body with Shadow Blend.
This ability is stupidly good. You can grant yourself total concealment in any condition other than full daylight or a daylight spell. This means enemies cannot see you. Period. And you can make hide checks whenever you want. If you can get the Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness, then you will be able to hide from tremorsense, blind sense, blindsight, and scent.

Next the Invisible Fist ACF from Exemplars of Evil:
At level 2 you lose evasion and can become invisible as an immediate action for 1 round, with a 3 round cooldown.
At level 9 you lose improved evasion, but you can use blink (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blink.htm), as the spell as an immediate action, for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier, with a 3 round cooldown. With 16 Wisdom, this is blink all day long (so long as you keep expending your immediate action every 3 rounds).

So if you do Monk 9/Swordsage 11, you can pick up all of those ACF's and support it with Shadow Hand maneuvers. By picking up Assassin's Stance, you can grab the Shadow Blade feat and Weapon Finesse to use your Dex mod for both attack and damage rolls, since Unarmed Strike is a Shadow Hand discipline weapon. This will let you dump your Strength and focus exclusively on Wisdom and Dex, using Flurry of Blows to pound at flat-footed opponents. If magic items are an option, the Magic Item Compendium has a number of items that let you bump up your sneak attack dice.
On the down side, you don't get 9th level maneuvers. On the up side, enemies will not be able to find you and you'll have at-will blink all day.