Undead as the LawBringers?!

[ThatOneGuy1224]

So I have been playing with this idea for awhile, what do you all think about the undead not being evil, but lawful natural? In my homebrew there is an island not far off the coast, that's plentiful with resources and overall breathtakingly beautiful. My players just landed on it, and even though it is on the maps, no nation has taken it as their own. They don't know it yet, but it's the site of a long forgotten empire, so old not a single building has survived....on the surface. Underneath is a sprawling necropolis, ruled by the lawbringers of said lost empire. Even though they know that the empire is no more, the intelligent undead swore an oath to uphold the laws of the Empire for eternity, with the lesser undead being those that have been found guilty of breaking these sacred laws, older than any nation that exists on the continent.

My main question is what kind of hints should I give the players to shoe that something is not right on this idyllic island they wish to call their own?

[Unoriginal]

So I have been playing with this idea for awhile, what do you all think about the undead not being evil, but lawful natural?

It can work in a setting. Personally, I dislike it immensely for D&D 5e, because this edition took care to take the undead back to the "they're horribly evil" roots and did a good job with it. But if you prefer your idea, go for it. One should play what they like.



My main question is what kind of hints should I give the players to shoe that something is not right on this idyllic island they wish to call their own?

Ancient monuments? Nearby communities telling legends? Animals which die on the island raising back as zombies?

[ThatOneGuy1224]

I've never really liked the idea the undead are inherently evil, or even that raising them is. It seems to be the idea that being unnatural is somehow evil, even though throwing fireballs is not is an exception to the rule. I mean, a necromancer can be see the corpse as nothing more than a discarded robe, a tool to be used, as it is no longer a person.

The island has no remnants of the empire, and I can't think of a reason why the law bringers would punish a non sentient being for a law, as it could not defend itself in their court.

[Unoriginal]

I've never really liked the idea the undead are inherently evil, or even that raising them is. It seems to be the idea that being unnatural is somehow evil, even though throwing fireballs is not is an exception to the rule. I mean, a necromancer can be see the corpse as nothing more than a discarded robe, a tool to be used, as it is no longer a person.

It's not because they're using corpses or doing "unnatural" things, it's because undead are animated with malevolent spirits which will slaughter everyone if given half the chance. Or do nasty things to people's souls.



The island has no remnants of the empire, and I can't think of a reason why the law bringers would punish a non sentient being for a law, as it could not defend itself in their court.

Well I dunno, sometime there could be an effect of the underground magic visible on the surface.

[Millstone85]

Since the introduction of the Shadowfell, I have found it difficult to judge the undead any more unnatural than the fey. Nor do I like the Shadowfell being treated like an 8th lower plane.

However, for your particular scenario...


I mean, a necromancer can be see the corpse as nothing more than a discarded robe, a tool to be used, as it is no longer a person.Using a corpse as a puppet is at the very least extremely disrespectful of the late person's memory.


The island has no remnants of the empire, and I can't think of a reason why the law bringers would punish a non sentient being for a law, as it could not defend itself in their court.Doesn't that undermine your premise?

[Unoriginal]

Since the introduction of the Shadowfell, I have found it difficult to judge the undead any more unnatural than the fey.

Most of them aren't. The only "unnatural" beings in D&D are aberrations.

Undead can be corruption from living creatures, though.



Nor do I like the Shadowfell being treated like an 8th lower plane.


It's not really. It's just as much treated like a lower plane than the Feywild is.

[ThatOneGuy1224]

Only in a culture where they attribute the physical with the spiritual. I mean, in a world where people can visit the planes, and meet the gods themselves potentially, it seems like people would draw a distinct difference between the soul/spirit and the vessal.


I kind of wrote the lore before making this decision. Now I have an adventure planned where one of the P.C's broke the law is forced to face judgement by the tribunal (The Judge, the jury, and The Executioner. The first being a homebrewed type of undead, the jury being made up of some of the aristocracy of the the empire before it fell, mostly vampires and lich, and a cloud giant turned death knight). I just need something so it doesnt seem completely out of the blue when it dors happen.

[Keltest]

Only in a culture where they attribute the physical with the spiritual. I mean, in a world where people can visit the planes, and meet the gods themselves potentially, it seems like people would draw a distinct difference between the soul/spirit and the vessal.


I kind of wrote the lore before making this decision. Now I have an adventure planned where one of the P.C's broke the law is forced to face judgement by the tribunal (The Judge, the jury, and The Executioner. The first being a homebrewed type of undead, the jury being made up of some of the aristocracy of the the empire before it fell, mostly vampires and lich, and a cloud giant turned death knight).

I would be careful with this, as it smacks of railroading. "angry NPCs show up, furious about some completely innocuous activity a PC did which would be considered perfectly normal anywhere else" is a good way to disengage the players from caring about the plot.

There is potential there, but you need to make sure that:
A: the PCs know and understand the laws. It must be communicated to them clearly.
B: the PCs know that they have broken one or more of the laws. The speed limit must be clearly posted, so to speak.
C: the PCs chose to break those laws. Maybe they felt it was the only viable option to achieve something else they considered important, but you cant have somebody throw them onto the grass against their will, then charge them with ignoring the "keep off the grass" sign. They need to actively make that decision themselves.

[Vogie]

I've frequently thought that the governmental use of animate dead for an interesting interpretation of "multiple life sentences" would be great feature for a more normal setting.

This concept was kind of alluded to in the MTG block Amonkhet (of which we have a PlaneShift for), where those who fell in the trials were mummified and used as labor, creating a post-work society for those denizens.

[ThatOneGuy1224]

I would be careful with this, as it smacks of railroading. "angry NPCs show up, furious about some completely innocuous activity a PC did which would be considered perfectly normal anywhere else" is a good way to disengage the players from caring about the plot.

They have been told that it is against the tradition of their nation to set foot on the island, though no one seems to remember why or the potential ramifications for doing so. They didn't seem to care, didn't actively do any research on why, they have become cocky after destroying a villain.

[Scripten]

In this case, I wouldn't pigeonhole all Undead into the same slot. We already have an example of Undead that are not inherently evil: the Revenant. Revenants are Neutral, brought back to life by the resolve to kill those who wrongfully killed them.

Personally, I would just refluff the Revenant such that this particular group stays Undead because they have a similar passion for righting injustice on a societal scale.

[Millstone85]

It's not really. It's just as much treated like a lower plane than the Feywild is.I disagree. I feel that they did a good job portraying the Feywild as a place of good, neutral and evil creatures, with a shared tendency toward passionate and whimsical endeavors. Meanwhile, most everyone and everything you could meet in the Shadowfell would mean you harm in addition to being gloomy.


Only in a culture where they attribute the physical with the spiritual. I mean, in a world where people can visit the planes, and meet the gods themselves potentially, it seems like people would draw a distinct difference between the soul/spirit and the vessal.A lot many people IRL firmly believe the mortal body to be a temporary vessel for the immortal soul. Others, like me, equate dead with mental/spiritual oblivion. Neither group is particularly fond of treating corpses like dolls.

[ThatOneGuy1224]

I can't think of a way that isn't Dues Ex Machina. Perhaps the law doesn't come into effect until they live on the island for a year and a day, thus being seen as citizens in the eyes of the law? Some kind of dream sequence where they visit the Empire after that time, so they can learn the law?

[Millstone85]

In this case, I wouldn't pigeonhole all Undead into the same slot. We already have an example of Undead that are not inherently evil: the Revenant. Revenants are Neutral, brought back to life by the resolve to kill those who wrongfully killed them.Two, actually. Ghosts are "any alignment".

[ThatOneGuy1224]

A lot many people IRL firmly believe the mortal body to be a temporary vessel for the immortal soul. Others, like me, equate dead with mental/spiritual oblivion. Neither group is particularly fond of treating corpses like dolls.

Faith and evidence are not the same thing though, I honestly think people would care less about the dead if they had evidence of the soul.

[Unoriginal]

They have been told that it is against the tradition of their nation to set foot on the island, though no one seems to remember why or the potential ramifications for doing so. They didn't seem to care, didn't actively do any research on why, they have become cocky after destroying a villain.

I would have a more informed priest or scholar show up on a boat and, without getting on the land themselves, tell the PCs to leave because they're trespassing on the land of the dead or something similar.

[ThatOneGuy1224]

I would have a more informed priest or scholar show up on a boat and, without getting on the land themselves, tell the PCs to leave because they're trespassing on the land of the dead or something similar.

Seems dude ex machina to me :/ I think I may go with the dream sequence, it would allow them to play a different character through their dream, a kind of memory of a long dead citizen of the empire?

[Scripten]

Two, actually. Ghosts are "any alignment".

Right! Can't believe I've forgotten that. I've used Good and Neutral ghosts several times so far.

[Unoriginal]

Seems dude ex machina to me :/ I think I may go with the dream sequence, it would allow them to play a different character through their dream, a kind of memory of a long dead citizen of the empire?

It's not an ex machina. It's logical some people who know that those who go to this place end up in hot water would try to warn the PCs once more. Especially if they made a big deal about ignoring traditions.

If the "land of the dead" is too much of an hint, just have them say "the land is cursed, people disappears here".

[Asmotherion]

I can see less powerful undead being "unaligned" as in mindless, and programmed to function in a specific way.

You can even argue that more powerful undead could be Neutral, as in, it is their nature to destroy and "feed on" life forces, in the same way it is our nature to kill and feed on animals, making it not a more evil act to do so on their perspective.

Or you can save yourself a phylosophical headache and everyone a heated debate about the nature of good and evil, and just accept that "Undead are Evil". Your Call.

On topic: The idea can work, but you have to think on the actual impact it has on the setting. What actually changes by making Undead lawful, instead of Evil? What do you expect to see by this change? How will this affect cultural views on Necromancy? Is Necromancy a thing used by Law Enforcment and The Army together with elit Soldiers for example? Do people co-exist with the Undead bodies of their Ancestors, because the Lawful Neutral Deity says so? That sort of thing.

[Man_Over_Game]

So I have been playing with this idea for awhile, what do you all think about the undead not being evil, but lawful natural? In my homebrew there is an island not far off the coast, that's plentiful with resources and overall breathtakingly beautiful. My players just landed on it, and even though it is on the maps, no nation has taken it as their own. They don't know it yet, but it's the site of a long forgotten empire, so old not a single building has survived....on the surface. Underneath is a sprawling necropolis, ruled by the lawbringers of said lost empire. Even though they know that the empire is no more, the intelligent undead swore an oath to uphold the laws of the Empire for eternity, with the lesser undead being those that have been found guilty of breaking these sacred laws, older than any nation that exists on the continent.

My main question is what kind of hints should I give the players to shoe that something is not right on this idyllic island they wish to call their own?


I would be careful with this, as it smacks of railroading. "angry NPCs show up, furious about some completely innocuous activity a PC did which would be considered perfectly normal anywhere else" is a good way to disengage the players from caring about the plot.

There is potential there, but you need to make sure that:
A: the PCs know and understand the laws. It must be communicated to them clearly.
B: the PCs know that they have broken one or more of the laws. The speed limit must be clearly posted, so to speak.
C: the PCs chose to break those laws. Maybe they felt it was the only viable option to achieve something else they considered important, but you cant have somebody throw them onto the grass against their will, then charge them with ignoring the "keep off the grass" sign. They need to actively make that decision themselves.

After reading both posts together, I have a solid idea.

Each undead "reminds" everyone not to do the thing that that particular undead did to become undead.

As in, an adventure who tried to dig up what appears to be a grave (and was actually an access tunnel) says "Don't dig up graves."

If the undead are sentient, don't have the undead spell out that is how they died, but instead add it as a note to the end of their sentence. Something like "I'm glad to help. Have a nice day, and please don't dig up graves, citizen". For added mystery, the undead don't know why they're saying that or how they died, it's simply a compulsory act.

If you want things to be particularly creepy, you can have a number of them all say something similar. This could easily be explained as a military force, or a prior adventuring party, once the players understand why the undead are saying this. You could use it for a number of warnings ("Don't yell after midnight" because something will find you), puzzles ("Don't take the gems" which are trapped) or give other hints about the world. Perhaps a prior army, still wearing their rotting uniforms, all say "Don't attack the undead".

[Millstone85]

Undead who didn't uphold some rule in life:


Death knight
Failed their paladin oath.


Deathlock
Failed their warlock pact.


Skull lord
Failed their warlord duty.


Sword wraith
Failed to die with honor.


I could see an army, or nation, that tied itself to a lawful power, such as an inevitable, ending up as a collection of these.

[Ogun]

In most games PC's break cultural taboos all the time.
The most relevant here is grave robbery.
Let them find a barracks or guard post with armed troops in undead slumber.
Make sure the door is sealed, warnings posted, the place immaculate,but don't have the undead awaken when the party starts to pillage the outpost.
The magical alarm on this outpost simply malfunctions, but the back up alarms do not, alerting the other outposts.
Cue a stream of undead soldiers, of ever increasing ability, until the PCs flee/are captured/parley/win the fight etc.
Robbing the dead, is usually considered amoral at best, so they can hardly say"How were we supposed to know?"

If they do manage to flee, maybe give them a head start, as the undead government plans its next move.
Then send hunters after them. This could be a party sized strike force, a single amped up ghost, or even an entire invasion.
I like a group of incorporeal undead possessing the bodies of lawbreakers.
Since the undead are lawful, they might want to offer rewards for the capture of the PC's and punish any who give them aid.

Sounds like a fun premise, plenty of ways to go with it.

[Snowbluff]

Using a corpse as a puppet is at the very least extremely disrespectful of the late person's memory.


This. Especially if the necromancer doesn't view the body as something of respect, which makes it triply evil.

Wee Jas (LN) does support voluntary generation of undead, however. Involuntary and evil use of undead is strictly prohibited and will likely get you hunted down by vindicators.

[ThatOneGuy1224]

.
On topic: The idea can work, but you have to think on the actual impact it has on the setting. What actually changes by making Undead lawful, instead of Evil? What do you expect to see by this change? How will this affect cultural views on Necromancy? Is Necromancy a thing used by Law Enforcment and The Army together with elit Soldiers for example? Do people co-exist with the Undead bodies of their Ancestors, because the Lawful Neutral Deity says so? That sort of thing.

It's already cannon that in the nation of Vil that people can make deals, essentially become slaves after death for money, undead indentured servitude for a number of years or even decades. Most of the citizens don't understand Necromancy though, and assume that their soul is stuck in the rotting flesh until released, so it not often done outside of desperation. Soldiers that die on the battlefield and are not close to completing their service are often turned into zombies or skeletons until they would have completed their contracts. The military tend towards the warrior-poet theme and are higher educated in the Arcane than the general population. Think of a less evil more lawful Thay.

[ThatOneGuy1224]

After reading both posts together, I have a solid idea.

Each undead "reminds" everyone not to do the thing that that particular undead did to become undead.

As in, an adventure who tried to dig up what appears to be a grave (and was actually an access tunnel) says "Don't dig up graves."

If the undead are sentient, don't have the undead spell out that is how they died, but instead add it as a note to the end of their sentence. Something like "I'm glad to help. Have a nice day, and please don't dig up graves, citizen". For added mystery, the undead don't know why they're saying that or how they died, it's simply a compulsory act.

If you want things to be particularly creepy, you can have a number of them all say something similar. This could easily be explained as a military force, or a prior adventuring party, once the players understand why the undead are saying this. You could use it for a number of warnings ("Don't yell after midnight" because something will find you), puzzles ("Don't take the gems" which are trapped) or give other hints about the world. Perhaps a prior army, still wearing their rotting uniforms, all say "Don't attack the undead".

I do like this idea.....I am trying to find a place in undead society for each type, lawful to a fault, with zombies and skeletons being the military and citizens.

[Man_Over_Game]

I do like this idea.....I am trying to find a place in undead society for each type, lawful to a fault, with zombies and skeletons being the military and citizens.

That could easily follow suit. Skeletons are seen as the higher class, as they've been there long enough. They've earned their citizenship, and no longer need to risk their "life" to be equal.

Zombies are the newly deceased, still wearing the armor and colors of their previous homeland as a reminder of their treachory. You don't need to find equipment for your military force if they're already wearing it when they get "recruited".

Eventually, the colors of their armor fade, and there's no reminder of their crimes (now a faithful soldier). Soon their armor will rust off and the leather will wear away, requiring new and specifically crafted gear (creating an elite guard). When they've served long enough for all of their flesh to rot off, they've served their time and can now relax as a citizen.

Would make for an interesting economy. I can just imagine there's a bare-bones Zombie who gets decapitated, his head yelling "Da** it! I was 10 years from retirement!"

[M Placeholder]

Underneath is a sprawling necropolis, ruled by the lawbringers of said lost empire. Even though they know that the empire is no more, the intelligent undead swore an oath to uphold the laws of the Empire for eternity, with the lesser undead being those that have been found guilty of breaking these sacred laws, older than any nation that exists on the continent.

D&D actually has a type of Undead pretty similar to what you've laid out. The Meorty (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/meorty.php) of the Dark Sun setting is a type of Undead that still enforces laws of Green Age realms, even though all of those realms have long turned to dust.