[Spheres of Might] Ranged Sneak attacks

[QuadraticGish]

This is something I came up with while thinking of potential builds for the pregens I was tasked to make for my DM. I'm not entirely sure on how reach on tiny creatures work, so assume this is hypothetical and that tiny creatures threaten their own square.

So first thing we need is the Conscript (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/conscript) Class. This nets us the best talent progression available, full BAB, and the ability to swap out bonus feats for certain abilities. Obviously the first one we want is Sneak Attack. Now this build will lack mobility, so we will be taking Mount to get a free animal companion to make up for this. The last point doesn't matter significantly, so we will just choose Finesse training in case we're ever forced into melee. As sneak attacking sadly doesn't kick in until 3rd level, I'll post a talent list for first and 3rd levels.
Tradition: Steppe Rider (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/martial-traditions#toc36)
Equipment
Outrider Training(Tradition) Provides us our Shortbow Proficency and reduces penalties to ranged attacks by half while mounted.
Short bow Mastery(Tradition) Another attack at -5 for a swift(which we don't use really) is a good deal.
Beastmastery(Ride)(Tradition) Defensive Rider will no doubt be useful since we'll have to stay within 30ft to activate sneak attack.
Barrage(Tradition) This opens up our primary damage option.
Sniper Sphere(1st Conscript Bonus Talent) This is just for a precise shot equivalent really, but it gives a good damage option for when getting close is just too dangerous.
Fencing Sphere(1st level Talent) This is just setting up our entry for sneak attacks. At this point, you are able to take Fast Feint with your first level feat allowing you to already benefit from Fatal Thrust.



Tradition: Steppe Rider (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/martial-traditions#toc36)
Equipment
Outrider Training(Tradition) Provides us our Shortbow Proficency and reduces penalties to ranged attacks by half while mounted.
Short bow Mastery(Tradition) Another attack at -5 for a swift(which we don't use really) is a good deal.
Beastmastery(Ride)(Tradition) Defensive Rider will no doubt be useful since we'll have to stay within 30ft to activate sneak attack.
Barrage(Tradition) This opens up our primary damage option.
Sniper Sphere(1st Conscript Bonus Talent) This is just for a precise shot equivalent really, but it gives a good damage option for when getting close is just too dangerous.
Fencing Sphere(1st level Talent) This is just setting up our entry for sneak attacks. At this point, you are able to take Fast Feint with your first level feat allowing you to already benefit from Fatal Thrust.
Fast Feint(2nd level talent) Gives us our ability to feint as a move action, so we can now feint and attack in the same round.
Expert Feint(3rd level talent) Not only can we apply our now active sneak attack damage to every attack we do, so can our allies!
Empty(3rd level bonus talent)


So at 3rd level with a proper composite short bow and an assumed 14 str and 16 dex, our Barrage routine(After a move action feint) comes out as:
Attack: 3(BAB)+3(Dex)-2(Barrage)= Attack/Barrage/Short bow Mastery +4/+4/-1
Damage: 2(Str)= 1d6+2+1d6/1d6+2+1d6/1d6+2+1d6
Now if you notice, we haven't even touched on races or even our feats much at all. We have two feats available or 3 if we're human, so I'll run down some potential ideas.

Extra Combat Talent: Augmented Grip; May not be the best choice right now, but it does help alleviate the barrage penalty down the line.
Extra Combat Talent: Close Combat Specialist; If you ever get into a hairy situation, this will protect you, or you can take...
Extra Combat Talent: Vigilant Sharpshooter; in combination with Close Combat Specialist to let your flank in melee if this sort of thing happens too much. Or you can just shank them.
Extra Combat Talent: Suppressing Fire; Want more dakka? This provides dakka. Another free attack is nothing to sneeze at- at worst is that the enemy dodges two of your attack and is now reduce to half movement, and either a -5 or -7 to perception and attack rolls. I'm not sure if it's referring to the two extra attack provided by barrage, or all attacks made with the blitz.
Extra Combat Talent: Arrow Split; This will become pretty important when DR becomes a common thing, but you can probably get away with putting this off for a while.
Extra Combat Talent: Distracting Shot; This for when you for some reason you must use your move action for something other than feinting.
Extra Combat Talent: Redirection; Cover? What's what?

Edit 1: Rewrite with Fencing instead of beastmastery.

[Der_DWSage]

I regret to inform you that there are significant problems in your plan.

1)You can only flank with melee attacks, unless you've found another feat that provides an exception to this rule.

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

2)You need to threaten an opponent to flank at all. Ranged attacks can still threaten, but you need to have Snap Shot first...which kind of negates the purpose of a ranged weapon. (Though Firearms would be a potent choice.)

3)Animals cannot take Teamwork feats by base-they need to have 3 Int first, which means this can't work without a permissive GM. (Who will probably insist, if nothing else, that you take Purposeful Training.) You may need to work in a way to share teamwork feats, such as via the Dwarven Commander's Helm. (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Commander%27s% 20Helm%20(Dwarf)Lesser)

4)Your tiny animals need to survive getting into melee, since they provoke. This might be your biggest hurdle.

[QuadraticGish]

I regret to inform you that there are significant problems in your plan.

1)You can only flank with melee attacks, unless you've found another feat that provides an exception to this rule.


2)You need to threaten an opponent to flank at all. Ranged attacks can still threaten, but you need to have Snap Shot first...which kind of negates the purpose of a ranged weapon. (Though Firearms would be a potent choice.)

3)Animals cannot take Teamwork feats by base-they need to have 3 Int first, which means this can't work without a permissive GM. (Who will probably insist, if nothing else, that you take Purposeful Training.) You may need to work in a way to share teamwork feats, such as via the Dwarven Commander's Helm. (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Commander%27s% 20Helm%20(Dwarf)Lesser)

4)Your tiny animals need to survive getting into melee, since they provoke. This might be your biggest hurdle.


Benefit: You are considered to be flanking (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Flanking) an opponent if at least one ally who also has this feat is threatening that opponent and the opponent is at least two size categories larger than the larger of you or your ally, regardless of your actual positioning. 1)It already says you're considered to be flanking ignoring any position requirements. I'd probably would lose out on any actual attack bonus from flanking since it does specifically state melee attacks now that I see it. Will adjust first post.

2)I'm positive Overwhelm covers this as it ignore positioning and grants flanking period.


Starting at 1st level, and again at 8th level, the conscript gains 1 teamwork feat for which he qualifies as a bonus feat. All of the conscript’s allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats for the purpose of determining whether the conscript receives a bonus from his teamwork feats. His allies do not receive any bonuses from this feat unless they actually possess the feat themselves. The allies’ positioning and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the teamwork feat for the conscript to receive the listed bonus. After any rest of 8 hours or longer, the conscript may choose to retrain the teamwork feats granted by this ability for any other teamwork feat he qualifies for. 3)Coordinated Combat states that no one else needs the feat for our hypothetical character to benefit from it, as they are all considered to possess it for the purposes of our character benefiting from it.

4) This is the weakest crutch of the plan, yes. the only way to really fix it up is to have more 1 HD birds going around or start boosting their HD. Best we can get are either 12 1HD animals, or 3 3HD animals(or 4 HD3 animals with a human bonus feat).

[Der_DWSage]

Fair on Coordinated Combat-I overlooked that from the main body of the post.

But flanking is still an issue. You don't normally flank with a ranged weapon. Positioning has nothing to do with it-your choice of weapon type does. You'd be better suited going for Fencing rather than Beastmastery, picking up the Ranged Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ranged-feint-combat/)feat or Verbal Feint (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/fencing#toc18)talent, and making use of Fast Feint and Greater Feint to get your full barrage's worth of sneak attacks. You also pick up more sneak attack dice this way, and don't have to worry about your pigeons surviving their kamikaze attacks-you instead just need to pick up Unlikely Feint when mindless creatures start showing up.

As another alternative to relying on a generous GM to overlook that you don't flank with a ranged weapon, you could also pick up Vigilant Sharpshooter (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/barrage#toc11)and Close Combat Specialist (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/barrage#toc6) from the Barrage sphere.

As a last note...you know that with Overwhelm, the opponent needs to be two sizes larger than you as well, right?


Benefit: You are considered to be flanking an opponent if at least one ally who also has this feat is threatening that opponent and the opponent is at least two size categories larger than the larger of you or your ally, regardless of your actual positioning.

[digiman619]

As a last note...you know that with Overwhelm, the opponent needs to be two sizes larger than you as well, right?

Not so; you just need to flank with a Tiny or Diminutive ally and you're set. It did say "two sizes larger than you or your ally" after all.

[Der_DWSage]

...Maybe read what I bolded one more time. Because what you just said is not the feat's text.

[SangoProduction]

...Maybe read what I bolded one more time. Because what you just said is not the feat's text.

Considering the clumsy wording of the feat, it's easy to understand how the words "the larger of" are missed. Regardless, this just means you need to shrink yourself, which is actually beneficial to those who don't rely on weapon damage. Alteration sphere would be a simple enough to use. Basic/Advanced Magical Training feats would allow it without dipping out of Conscript. Start as a Goblin or some such small creature. Take Goblin Gunslinger to be able to use a medium sized gun while morphed really really small. Don't ask how. Dragons fly on rainbow farts.

However, you do run in to the problem that tiny, diminutive, and fine sized creatures can't flank. The feat doesn't explicitly lift that restriction, or even say that they can. However... one can infer that this is because they have 0 ft natural reach, which means that they can't threaten. And threatening is a prerequisite to flanking. However, strict RAW will say "Screw you and your mother! You can't flank!"

So, to flank with a ranged weapon, you'd need to threaten with it. Most ranged weapons don't offer this, particularly on the ranged part. Vigilant Sharpshooter from the Barrage sphere grants you threatened reach of 5 to 10 feet. This is enough to allow for flanking. Strike that. Flanking also only benefits melee attacks.

However...there is an additional talent in Barrage called Close Combat Specialist, which explicitly says you can flank with ranged attacks (so long as you have Vigilant Sharpshooter). This is redundant, but it could get around the size-flanking issue. Also it's very explicit.

....which comes to the problem of the little birdies you want to sacrifice to the blood god. They can't threaten. And Overwhelm requires them to......SO STRAP THEM WITH FRICKEN LAZOR BEEMS!

[QuadraticGish]

Fair on Coordinated Combat-I overlooked that from the main body of the post.

But flanking is still an issue. You don't normally flank with a ranged weapon. Positioning has nothing to do with it-your choice of weapon type does. You'd be better suited going for Fencing rather than Beastmastery, picking up the Ranged Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ranged-feint-combat/)feat or Verbal Feint (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/fencing#toc18)talent, and making use of Fast Feint and Greater Feint to get your full barrage's worth of sneak attacks. You also pick up more sneak attack dice this way, and don't have to worry about your pigeons surviving their kamikaze attacks-you instead just need to pick up Unlikely Feint when mindless creatures start showing up.

As another alternative to relying on a generous GM to overlook that you don't flank with a ranged weapon, you could also pick up Vigilant Sharpshooter (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/barrage#toc11)and Close Combat Specialist (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/barrage#toc6) from the Barrage sphere.

As a last note...you know that with Overwhelm, the opponent needs to be two sizes larger than you as well, right?
I'm still not understanding what you're saying when the feat flat out says you are considered flanking. I'll make note of fencing sphere. No I'm pretty sure- oh. Larger of. Why couldn't they say you and your ally instead, much more understandable. Well, that depressingly burns this whole idea down.

[SangoProduction]

I'm still not understanding what you're saying when the feat flat out says you are considered flanking. I'll make note of fencing sphere. No I'm pretty sure- oh. Larger of. Why couldn't they say you and your ally instead, much more understandable. Well, that depressingly burns this whole idea down.

Honestly, unless you could equip your birds with reach weapons, it wouldn't work even if it just needed one of you to be that size.

[Der_DWSage]

...Well, that depressingly burns this whole idea down.

It's not burned down, you just need to opt for a different foundation. Fencing instead of Beastmastery opens up ranged sneak attacks, and picking up the two Barrage talents that let you flank opens up being able to do so with party members. You'll be a turret for sure, since you're having to Bluff as a move and Barrage as a Standard, but at least you don't have to convince the GM to let you buy bluebirds wholesale.

[QuadraticGish]

First rewrite with emphasis on Fencing is now up! I'd like some confirmation on Fatal Thrust- it does strictly require flanking for it to work properly right?

[EldritchWeaver]

It would have been preferable, if you hadn't replaced the old build outright. Now the comments make less sense. In regards to your use of riding, I'm not sure if that is the best option. It does limit the use of the character, unless you use smaller mounts and races. Maybe a way using Athletics? Employing Sparrow's Path to attain flight. Mobile Striker to get out of of reach of your target, although it doesn't affect other enemies and reduces the number of attacks for that round. Mobility is useful to avoid AoOs. Moving Target and After Image also help.

[QuadraticGish]

It would have been preferable, if you hadn't replaced the old build outright. Now the comments make less sense. In regards to your use of riding, I'm not sure if that is the best option. It does limit the use of the character, unless you use smaller mounts and races. Maybe a way using Athletics? Employing Sparrow's Path to attain flight. Mobile Striker to get out of of reach of your target, although it doesn't affect other enemies and reduces the number of attacks for that round. Mobility is useful to avoid AoOs. Moving Target and After Image also help.

Yeah, I didn't think that first part through admittedly. It does limit it, yes. Another way around the size limitation if we wanted a medium mount would be the Undersized Mount Feat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/undersized-mount-combat/). Sparrows path would be a good option, but I'm purposefully avoiding legendary talents since they're not allowed by default without DM permission. If we want fly speed through, I think our best option is the Monstrous Mount (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/monstrous-mount/) and Monstrous Mount Mastery (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/monstrous-mount-mastery/). It would eat up the 5th and 7th level feats, but it would get us a better mount and one capable of flight speed. A little on the slow side, but we could augment it with the Martial Beast (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/martial-beast) archetype to grant it some talent progression. Mobile Striker could work out in combination with Distracting Shot if we want to sacrifice extra damage for our movement like you said. Moving target is nice if we have ranged competition, but it doesn't do much against melee opponents faster than us unless we take it twice.