OOTS #1140 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Keltest]

Oh man, the colon tumor. Man, that was a callback.

[Windscion]

"I wanna be offended by tha, but it explains so much."
Awesome.

[Joran]

Is the gritty cybertech world with talking animals Laser-Snal? (Is that a reference to something?)

Edit: Googling got a lot of laser hair removal websites...

[Breyfunk]

So many great callbacks, bravo!

[hamishspence]

Callbacks are awesome. Wasn't the last time we saw the sapient snacks, in the gladiator barracks?

[SaintRidley]

15 years and 1133 strips later we get the callback. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html)


Is the gritty cybertech world with talking animals Laser-Snal? (Is that a reference to something?)

Edit: Googling got a lot of laser hair removal websites...

Laser-Snail. The i and the l have run together.

[Keltest]

Also, this is lending strength to my "the mortals can actually do something permanent to the snarl" theory.

[locksmith of lo]

"enjoy 32oz of vengence, served ice cold!"

i need to find a way to slip that into a conversation! :smallcool:

[anomen]

Is the gritty cybertech world with talking animals Laser-Snal? (Is that a reference to something?)

I think that's a Synnibarr reference.

[ajp1011]

All the worlds that were ever conceived of, billions of stories that were only partially told. Campaigns that ended prematurely because of player conflict, or the GM got bored. Everything from Pathfinder, DnD, Ebberon, Traveller, Shadowrun, VtM, Cthulu, and the myriad Savage Worlds to old school GURPS campaigns, and Rifts. Giant is really getting meta here, we're going way down the rabbit hole.

[Ninja Dragon]

I love the movie snacks callback.

I love how the soda is using a pizza cutter as a weapon.

I love the pun used.

I love how it confirms the whole thing as canon, and places it as part of another planet.

Awesome.

[Tvtyrant]

I think Rich implied this way back when he did the crayons and said thst gods were even weaker to the snarl then mortals.

[hroþila]

Hahaha, that was hilarious. I love that the gods are apparently somehow putting easter eggs for themselves in their worlds, in light of Milk Dudes and the other sentient movie theatre snacks.

[Elenna]

Love the callbacks, and the confirmation that they actually can fix it this time.

Also, first page, yay!

[littlebum2002]

Oh man, the colon tumor. Man, that was a callback.

Yeah, i'm impressed at how Rich keeps breaking his own record for longest callback. Maybe Redcloak will die in the last comic only to be replaced by the bouncing goblin from Comic #1.

Anyway, come on Thor! Just tell us already!!!

[Worldsong]

"I can count them. I remember everyone who's ever worshipped me."

He may not have been frowning, but I still felt like Thor needed a hug.

[DigoDragon]

"Cyberpunk talking animal" world just vindicated my Pony Shadowrun setting. :smallbiggrin:

[brian 333]

Let's all go to the lobby, let's all go to the lobby, let's all go to the lobby, and kill ourselves some snacks!

The callbacks are fantastic, but the thread of hope Thor dangles caught my attention. Now comes the meat of this comic nut!

[Moglorosh]

I love Thor's snark at the end there. Good stuff.

[chy03001]

So THAT's why they're all stick figures~

I wonder if Laser Snail was an actual PC in one of Rich's own home games...

[Bad Wolf]

Anyone into The Elder Scrolls? Kind of reminds me of kalpas.

[warmachine]

Once in an eternity opportunity? That's going to need some explanation. It would also suggest direct action by Thor himself would be needed but I suspect that would create a war between the gods and make everything worse.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thanks, Giant, this one pleased on a lot of levels. In order of what got me going "nice!" ...

1. Obviously, we were scraping the bottom of the idea barrel when we came up with "self-aware stick figure fantasy parody." (Durkon's response made me grin)

2. I remember everyone who's ever worshipped me.
Which put the oomph in the lead up

3. I'm a little jealous of your mortal limitations.

4. I wanted you to fully appreciate the scale of the problem, and the once in an eternity opportunity that your specific world has given us a chance to change things - maybe forever.

Yes! Badly considered fan theories from the #1139 comment thread, your memorial is right over there ... waaaaaaaay behind Durkon's head in the last panel.

5. And you "almost" didn't bring that up. (Giggled, I did) Awesome callback is awesome.

[Teioh]

I’m guessing this means the Gods are not ‘really’ stick figures, and shape change based on the theme of each world.

[Lkctgo]

Honestly, it does explain alot about the lackadaisical attitude of the gods towards the world, it's literally one-in-a-billion. Yet Gods like Thor still "remember" every mortal they have lost. Maybe that differentiates the good gods and the bad.

[Windscion]

I’m guessing this means the Gods are not ‘really’ stick figures, and shape change based on the theme of each world.
Well now I'm trying to figure out how Thor looks to a sapient slice of pizza.

[ref]

OK. This explains SO much. :)

[Peelee]

Also, this is lending strength to my "the mortals can actually do something permanent to the snarl" theory.

I'm thinking more and more that they may figure out a Gordon Knot-style solution. It's threads of reality, after all. All they need to do it figure out a way to break reality. Which V constantly spoke about arcane magic doing. And such he would now be hesitant to unleash all-out like it may require.

[Resileaf]

Wow, talk about some really old callbacks. On a whim, I was just looking at the early strips, so this is like it just happened.

[Borris]

I'm having a hard time imagining a cyberpunk setting with beings like Thor, Dragon, or Marduk as deities.

[Leirus]

So what is different about this world? The Gates?

[Coyote0715]

So the gate trick is unique to this world?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So what is different about this world? The Gates?

...

Thor just told us: it's a self-aware stick figure fantasy parody.

Grey Wolf

[Resileaf]

Also nice touch with that 'Holy you' line from Minrah.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well now I'm trying to figure out how Thor looks to a sapient slice of pizza. Like a Chicago deep dish. :smallsmile:

[Goblin_Priest]

Oh Thor!

Time to speculate on what's so special this time around.

[D.One]

Well now I'm trying to figure out how Thor looks to a sapient slice of pizza.

My bet is that he takes the form of a huge Energy Drink.

[hroþila]

Hahaha, that was hilarious. I love that the gods are apparently somehow putting easter eggs for themselves in their worlds, in light of Milk Dudes and the other sentient movie theatre snacks.
In fact, now I'm wondering how much of the inherent incongruity in this setting is due to nostalgic gods inserting references to previous worlds.

[Hans of Frysia]

Dear Giant, if you're wondering about what to do as a new project once you finish the OOTS story, my vote is for a new comic set in the gritty cyberpunk setting with talking animals. That'd be sweet.

[Akal Saris]

I'm having a hard time imagining a cyberpunk setting with beings like Thor, Dragon, or Marduk as deities.

Maybe they pass themselves off as omnipotent AI in those settings, like Wintermute in Neuromancer?

[SaintRidley]

My bet is that he takes the form of a huge Energy Drink.

PowerThorst. It gives you energy legs!

[Kantaki]

:smalleek:Sometimes being so tiny compared to the greater whole is in fact an advantage.
Lacking the perspective to grasp just how many tries it took to get here is oddly comforting.:smalleek:

Still, so many worlds ended before their time and nothing that can be done but trying again and again...
Despite it being their fault in the first place I actually pity the gods for their situation.

But as long there's life there's hope, and considering it led to a real chance to end the problem for good?
All those dead worlds didn't end in vain.

[gatemansgc]

love the ThorPrayer® reference lol.

will pizza and soda be considered the same characters as the ones in 301?

[CoffeeIncluded]

It’s the gates, isn’t it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Thor hasn't outright said it, but I get the feeling that Loki's approach of waiting to the last minute is the reason why in some worlds they didn't "save everyone by killing them". Waiting until the very last moment means the gods can get out of harm's way, but won't have time to kill all their followers and collect their souls. By "Pulling the Plug", Loki meant "abandoning the world to the Snarl".

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

Giant is really getting meta here, we're going way down the rabbit hole. Says Alice. :smallwink:
I think Rich implied this way back when he did the crayons and said that gods were even weaker to the snarl then mortals. @274, first panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html)

So THAT's why they're all stick figures~ I wonder if Laser Snail was an actual PC in one of Rich's own home games... Sounds like a Gamma World or Metamorphosis Alpha thing.

I'm thinking more and more that they may figure out a Gordon Knot-style solution. It's threads of reality, after all. All they need to do it figure out a way to break reality. Which V constantly spoke about arcane magic doing. And such he would now be hesitant to unleash all-out like it may require. And the V haters arrive in 3, 2, 1 ...

So what is different about this world? The Gates?
:mitd: What gates?


Maybe they pass themselves off as omnipotent AI in those settings, like Wintermute in Neuromancer? Oh man, I need to go and dig that book up again and read it next weekend when the wife is out of town.

[DougTheHead]

I'm having a hard time imagining a cyberpunk setting with beings like Thor, Dragon, or Marduk as deities.

Isn't that basically the setting of the videogame Too Human? It recreated the Norse myths in a cyberpunk future.

[Dragolord]

Well, now I'm wondering where the petitioners from the "saved" worlds are, and why they've never told anybody. Perhaps it's just Planescape-esque weirdness, with infinite planes of defined dimensions...

[Resileaf]

Well, now I'm wondering where the petitioners from the "saved" worlds are, and why they've never told anybody. Perhaps it's just Planescape-esque weirdness, with infinite planes of defined dimensions...

Or maybe the gods have just forbidden contact with future worlds to keep the snarl from becoming common knowledge.

[Cuthalion]

I think the movie theater snacks callback to 301 is one of the funniest things in this comic, which has had many funny things, in a good long while.

[2.5 cats]

Panel 7 ("..scraping the bottom of the idea barrel...") is one of my favorite things ever. :smallsmile:

[Rrmcklin]

I wonder if all the gods have kept count of all the worlds and their worshippers, or if that's just Thor being sentimental enough to care to keep up with it.

[Toper]

Well, now I'm wondering where the petitioners from the "saved" worlds are, and why they've never told anybody. Perhaps it's just Planescape-esque weirdness, with infinite planes of defined dimensions...
Only their souls were saved, and have no doubt long since faded into their afterlives.

It's a beautiful sad comic.

[Fyraltari]

Hilarious.

Anyone into The Elder Scrolls? Kind of reminds me of kalpas.
Fenrir and Dagon go for drinks together on week-ends.

Once in an eternity opportunity? That's going to need some explanation. It would also suggest direct action by Thor himself would be needed but I suspect that would create a war between the gods and make everything worse.
My bet is Gates.

Well now I'm trying to figure out how Thor looks to a sapient slice of pizza.
He looks awesome.

I'm thinking more and more that they may figure out a Gordon Knot-style solution.
Gordon Knot being, of course, a lengendary hero from a world of sapient ropes famed for his ability to find creative solutions to problems.

So what is different about this world? The Gates?
Probably.

I'm having a hard time imagining a cyberpunk setting with beings like Thor, Dragon, or Marduk as deities.
Hel, however would fit right in.

:smalleek:Sometimes being so tiny compared to the greater whole is in fact an advantage.
I am remind of Discworld's DEATH and the (hiver? Is that its name in english? The spirit that possessed tiffany for a while and had memories of a wizard, a queen, a tiger etc).

Lacking the perspective to grasp just how many tries it took to get here is oddly comforting.:smalleek:

Still, so many worlds ended before their time and nothing that can be done but trying again and again...
Despite it being their fault in the first place I actually pity the gods for their situation.

But as long there's life there's hope, and considering it led to a real chance to end the problem for good?
All those dead worlds didn't end in vain.
That's the spirit!

Thor hasn't outright said it, but I get the feeling that Loki's approach of waiting to the last minute is the reason why in some worlds they didn't "save everyone by killing them". Waiting until the very last moment means the gods can get out of harm's way, but won't have time to kill all their followers and collect their souls. By "Pulling the Plug", Loki meant "abandoning the world to the Snarl".

Grey Wolf
I am afraid you are right.

[Psyren]

Thanks for the in-universe confirmation that this world is different Giant! (Or at least that Thor believes it is).

I'm also glad Durkon needed reassurance of that, because I did too.


...

Thor just told us: it's a self-aware stick figure fantasy parody.

Grey Wolf

Sure, but what about that specific setup makes it uniquely suited to solve the Snarl problem, is I believe the question. (Especially when World #1, when we lost Zeus et al., also appeared to be a stick figure fantasy parody. Granted, Shojo may have simply been conceptualizing it that way for story purposes.)

[GregTD]

So, are we beyond "billions"

[Leirus]

...

Thor just told us: it's a self-aware stick figure fantasy parody.

Grey Wolf

I mean, what makes this world different to create "a specific opportunity"

It could be directly the theme of world as you say, or it could be that this world is better made than the last one, has lasted longer and the natives have had the chance to so something about the rifts. Or it could be even indirectly that, like maybe your idea about ascended godhood being related to self-awareness is right, and the Plan of the Dark One (moving the Snarl) can actually be used to save the World. Thor speaks of an specific opportunity, and that makes me think that something has happened in this world that did not in past worlds. Which brings the gates and the Plan to mind again.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sure, but what about that specific setup makes it uniquely suited to solve the Snarl problem, is I believe the question.

Thor is building up to telling us why they have a specially good shot at this in the next few comics, I suspect. For my part, I'd rather be patient than speculate about something we're going to get answered soon, but fair enough.

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

So, are we beyond "billions"

Do we need to call in Carl Sagan for this? :smallcool:

[GregTD]

15 years and 1133 strips later we get the callback. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html)



Laser-Snail. The i and the l have run together.

It's all your fault I read this one again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html)

"Hey, why isn't Belkar affected by Unholy Blight?"

"Best not to dwell on it"

[Windscion]

My bet is that he[Thor] takes the form of a huge Energy Drink.
This is my new headcanon.

[AlurenDarkfire]

I was actually really happy to see the "Movie Theater Snacks" characters call-back. Weird.

[gatemansgc]

one might think that there's enough mass in these memorials to create a whole planet without needing the threads.

[ruy343]

What was amazing. Well done, Giant!

I was wondering whether we would hear anything about the movie snacks... now we know!

But even more important: we not know that Thor had a reason for bringing Durkon out here and sending him back to the material plane - He thinks that there's still hope. Man! I can't wait for the next one!

And I also can't wait for an explanation about what blackwing and others have seen inside the rift: I feel like we're about to get an explanation, and I know that it's going to blow my mind.

[Leirus]

one might think that there's enough mass in these memorials to create a whole planet without needing the threads.

Giant poltergeist world? No thanks.

[FlawedParadigm]

Impressive self-dig with the "bottom of the barrel" comment. :p

[Resileaf]

one might think that there's enough mass in these memorials to create a whole planet without needing the threads.

I assume that building a planet out of the memorials would just make a barren grey rock. To really make a world, the gods need to use the threads of reality to give it life or somesuch.

[Calemyr]

The whole self-aware thing may have been the trigger - nobody else would have thought of the gate solution without a properly meta perspective.

[Verappo]

I'm so happy Soda got a chance at settling the score after all these years. That was for Milk Dudes!

[Gift Jeraff]

Callbacks are awesome. Wasn't the last time we saw the sapient snacks, in the gladiator barracks?

There was a bonus strip with humans dressed up as them for the gladiator halftime show. I think the last time in the online strip was #350 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html).

[Tundar]

Another epic page from mr. Burlew.
Stay awesome!

I just wanna find Thor and hug him...

[Fyraltari]

I really like the fact that Durkon and Thor just sit next to each other contemplating the results of the Gods effort, it is really impressive that a god would show himself in such a position of weakness to a mortal like that. Thor is truly humble. Also that he can still name all of his followers is powerful.

I am really glad that the comic took the time to humanize the deity of the one religious party member, giving us a sense of why Durkon thinks he deserves to be worshipped rather than "just because".

[Kantaki]

one might think that there's enough mass in these memorials to create a whole planet without needing the threads.

Sure. And if we take all the tombstones in the world we can build quite a few houses.
I wouldn't want to live in one though...

[theMycon]

Well now I'm trying to figure out how Thor looks to a sapient slice of pizza.
What's the god of movie theater food?

He's clearly pretzel bites with nacho cheese and a mug of beer.

[Caractacus]

That was entertaining for me and also exciting for the plot.

There really is a chance that our heroes can do it. Thor thinks so, and if that isn't good enough then surely nothing is.

[brian 333]

What's the god of movie theater food?

He's clearly pretzel bites with nacho cheese and a mug of beer.

Nonpariels.

They are haughty, unpopular, and slightly bitter beneath a sugary surface. Very much the demigods of geedunks.

[RMS Oceanic]

He's the man who regrets, not the man who forgets. :smallfrown:

Prediction: This world had the right type of magic outside the realm of the divine to create the gates. The rifts can only be truly stabilised by mortal means, because divine intervention ages you ten years every time you cast it empowers the Snarl

[Grey Watcher]

Rich Burlew, 2003:Go long! Go long!
Rich Burlew, 2005:Got it!
Rich Burlew, 2003:Longer!
Rich Burlew, 2009:W00t! Thanks!
Rich Burlew, 2003:Even longer!
Rich Burlew, 2013:I gotcha!
Rich Burlew, 2003:No, no, longer! Looooooooongeeeeeeeeeeer!
Rich Burlew, 2018:Wait, what? :gets hit by joke: OW!
Rich Burlew, 2003:TOUCHDOWN! Totally worth it!

[Sky Shadowing]

I suppose that helps me consider what happens to ascended deities, if such a thing has happened before: either they join in with one of the Pantheons and become indistinguishable by assuming a new form, or they fade away, because after all who would worship, say, a God of Goblinkind in a world where there are no Goblins?

[Shining Wrath]

I feel sorry for Thor. Imagine how many worshipers he's had over the eons. It'd be like having had millions of pets and caring about each one (note: I think we're well past the "all the gods are jerks" debate) and remembering each one - and the moment when you had to put them down.

But the ending panels are the big set up. There's something Durkon and the OotS can do that ends this cycle! Maybe it's repair the Gates and make them stronger; maybe its throw the Dark One to the Snarl to chew on and then attack while it's distracted; I dunno. But there's hope!

And remember, Elan gets a happy ending. And Durkon is going to go back and tell him about this (unless sworn to secrecy), and there's no way Elan is going to be happy knowing that adorable cyberpunk talking animals will be destroyed by the Snarl if the Order fails.

[Mith]

Well now I'm trying to figure out how Thor looks to a sapient slice of pizza.

I figure he takes the appearance of a pint of that really good beer. You know. That one you are thinking of right now.

[Bastian Weaver]

Wow.
WOW.
Best. Strip. Ever.

[denthor]

I'm thinking more and more that they may figure out a Gordon Knot-style solution. It's threads of reality, after all. All they need to do it figure out a way to break reality. Which V constantly spoke about arcane magic doing. And such he would now be hesitant to unleash all-out like it may require.


Oh it all comes down to the doily. A path to power that few of ever looked into

[Draconi Redfir]

My guess is the thing that's different about this world is the Gates, usually the tears would have destroyed the world by now, but with the Gates locking them in place, there's still a chance. That's my bet at least.

[RMS Oceanic]

I figure he takes the appearance of a pint of that really good beer. You know. That one you are thinking of right now.

Makes sense, he's a European God

[Kareasint]

This was a fun strip to read. A lot of good jokes were in it.

[ackmondual]

A lot of different "worlds"

Rick & Morty, eat your heart out :cool:

[Kantaki]

Wow.
WOW.
Best. Strip. Ever.

Best strip so far.

Really, if you think the Giant can't outdo this you haven't been paying attention.:smallwink:

[GaelofDarkness]

Wow these last couple strips have been eye-openers. And the callbacks!

I honestly had a laughing fit at "self-aware stick figure fantasy parody"

[lcavalheiro]

Oh it all comes down to the doily. A path to power that few of ever looked into

And now we ran in a good memory-induced trip...

[Jaros]

because divine intervention ages you ten years every time you cast it empowers the Snarl

Wait, was that a Might & Magic reference?

[Shining Wrath]

I’m guessing this means the Gods are not ‘really’ stick figures, and shape change based on the theme of each world.

In fact, Thor may not even be Thor. He may be Cyberpunk Fust to the Cyberpunk Animals (seen in the lower right panel), and not use the name Thor, nor have anything to do with weather.

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/ggmain/strips/ggmain20170421.jpg

[hamishspence]

Wait, was that a Might & Magic reference?

More likely a 1e/2e reference - I think the Wish spell (both clerics and wizards got Wish) did that when cast.

[Jaros]

More likely a 1e/2e reference - I think the Wish spell (both clerics and wizards got Wish) did that when cast.

Ah that makes sense. The spell Divine Intervention does this in M&M, but given how much that series borrows from general D&D lore I googled to see if Divine Intervention was a D&D spell.

[Fyraltari]

More likely a 1e/2e reference - I think the Wish spell (both clerics and wizards got Wish) did that when cast.

What happened if you Wished for youth?

[Jaros]

What happened if you Wished for youth?

A genie showed up and kicked you in the nuts

[hamishspence]

What happened if you Wished for youth?

A youth was teleported to your location, I would guess :amused:
2e encouraged DMs to twist wishes if they were overpowered.

[FlawedParadigm]

A genie showed up and kicked you in the nuts

And then tasered them for about an hour.

[Borris]

one might think that there's enough mass in these memorials to create a whole planet without needing the threads.

Those memorials in the astral plane are made out of ideas. They probably have no mass at all.

[runeghost]

I'm having a hard time imagining a cyberpunk setting with beings like Thor, Dragon, or Marduk as deities.

Shadowrun says hello.

("You want some magic with your cyberpunk? You want elves? Dragons? Extradimensional monsters that will evenually show up to destroy world?")

[Breccia]

Rich Burlew, 2003:Go long! Go long!
Rich Burlew, 2005:Got it!
Rich Burlew, 2003:Longer!
Rich Burlew, 2009:W00t! Thanks!
Rich Burlew, 2003:Even longer!
Rich Burlew, 2013:I gotcha!
Rich Burlew, 2003:No, no, longer! Looooooooongeeeeeeeeeeer!
Rich Burlew, 2018:Wait, what? :gets hit by joke: OW!
Rich Burlew, 2003:TOUCHDOWN! Totally worth it!

Brick Jokes are the best jokes (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrickJoke). This comic has had its fair share. "You're invisible! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0665.html)" is one of my favorites.

I have to respectfully disagree with people saying "it's the Gates". Gates are a stalling tactic, not a permanent solution. The Gates in this world are failing even as we speak, to the point that the gods were 50/50 split on rebooting.

[Resileaf]

A lot of different "worlds"

Rick & Morty, eat your heart out :cool:

"Where are we, Thor?"
"We're in a - *buuurp* - we're in a self-aware stick figure fantasy parody, Durkon!"
"Oh geez, Thor!"

[mnwxy]

If new gods, like the dark one, can be raised from a world, why aren’t there octillions of gods from dead worlds? Do they vanish with their followers? But Hel claims that souls give gods power; and even if so, what makes the original four pantheons different?

[hamishspence]

If new gods, like the dark one, can be raised from a world, why aren’t there octillions of gods from dead worlds?

Possibly the conditions that give rise to an ascended deity are rare enough that only a few worlds, rather than lots, have created them.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The jokes and callbacks in this strip were actually incredible! Thor’s “I remember everyone who’s ever worshipped me” has got to be one of the saddest lines in the entire comic, however. Still, the fact that the Order actually does have a chance to permanently fix things is pretty uplifting.

[Mordar]

"Cyberpunk talking animal" world just vindicated my Pony Shadowrun setting. :smallbiggrin:


In fact, now I'm wondering how much of the inherent incongruity in this setting is due to nostalgic gods inserting references to previous worlds.

Of course it did - the previous worlds are all RPG games that have been consumed by the snarl of real life responsibility. Some of the games they managed to "finish" before the snarl took em out, many others were left half-done. I'm foolishly certain of all of this now.

The nostalgia? Players in a group constantly call-back to characters they had before, in other games in other days, and wish to recapture some of what made those characters special.


What's the god of movie theater food?

He's clearly pretzel bites with nacho cheese and a mug of beer.

What kind of modern era hipster movie god do you think he is?!? Popcorn. Red vines. Soda. Classics only. Next thing I know someone will be calling for sliders, half-caf-double-decaf-mocha-latte-chinos and freshly roasted organic cinnamon almonds with sea salt.

- M

[Magic Rob]

All the worlds that were ever conceived of, billions of stories that were only partially told. Campaigns that ended prematurely because of player conflict, or the GM got bored. Everything from Pathfinder, DnD, Ebberon, Traveller, Shadowrun, VtM, Cthulu, and the myriad Savage Worlds to old school GURPS campaigns, and Rifts. Giant is really getting meta here, we're going way down the rabbit hole.

And I think this has something to do with how the party will win. It's a cleverly hidden meta campaign about how so many campaigns end prematurely because of various snags or snarls. Scheduling conflicts, loss of interest by the players or the DM,TPKs.... But in this campaign, the players are actually nearing the end. They, more than anyone else, have a real chance of winning simply by virtue of the fact that they've pushed this far into the campaign without slowing down.

[HUMVEE Driver]

Sapient snacks again!

[Draconi Redfir]

I have to respectfully disagree with people saying "it's the Gates". Gates are a stalling tactic, not a permanent solution. The Gates in this world are failing even as we speak, to the point that the gods were 50/50 split on rebooting.

Well yeah, but the thing is just that, it's stalling,m it's artificially buying the world more time through mortal hands. This might not be something any of the other worlds were able to figure out or do. Could be that when rifts appeared in those world, they just continued to grow until the world was doomed. Here, they were able to STOP that growth, even if just for a little while.

don't overlook progress just because it's not success.

[thereaper]

I love all the things this strip brings back and explains.

[Mith]

If new gods, like the dark one, can be raised from a world, why aren’t there octillions of gods from dead worlds? Do they vanish with their followers? But Hel claims that souls give gods power; and even if so, what makes the original four pantheons different?

Theory time: Everything is so story driven, that the fundamental force is an idea rather than any objective laws. A sentient creature essentially projects these ideas out into the world with large group belief creating resonance to inspire gods into existence. Upon death, a sentient creature is sent to a plane where they are subsumed with the plane resonates with them the most. The use of alignment is to speed up this conversion to make it more efficient.

A god is an idea that can survive their followers, since they are self perpetuating ideas. They act like a plane but with more agency. Now Hel seems to think that gaining more followers directly increases a god's power, but it could also just boost influence as opposed to raw power. But I could be wrong.

Now I branch onto an interesting thought: The gods survive the destruction of the world by reaffirming each other's existence. Without followers, they must rely on each other to start again. An alliance against the Snarl.

Now what makes this interesting is that The Dark One is different to the Elven gods in that the other gods did not accept him, so he will fade quickly, while the Elven gods will persist due to the Western Gods.

Real fun thought: What if Durkon preaches for the acceptance of the Dark One for the Northern Pantheon. I wonder what the Dark One's Domains are.

[Nightcanon]

Prediction: This world had the right type of magic outside the realm of the divine to create the gates. The rifts can only be truly stabilised by mortal means, because divine intervention ages you ten years every time you cast it empowers the Snarl
Whether the definitive answer is the Gates, or they merely make it possible to stall the Snarl for a couple of generations until the ability to deal permanently with it, I think you are right that a 3.5e world contains sufficient Arcane magic to solve the problem, unlike previous Creations.

[hamishspence]

Real fun thought: What if Durkon preaches for the acceptance of the Dark One for the Northern Pantheon. I wonder what the Dark One's Domains are.

Given Redcloak's use of Hold Monster (Law domain) Disintegrate (Destruction domain), and Whitecloak in Dungeon Crawling Fools's use of Unholy Blight (Evil domain) it is fairly safe to say that those three are included.

[D.One]

Makes sense, he's a European God

:miko:"What's this Europe you keep talking about?"


I have to respectfully disagree with people saying "it's the Gates". Gates are a stalling tactic, not a permanent solution. The Gates in this world are failing even as we speak, to the point that the gods were 50/50 split on rebooting.

Agreed with the Gates being a stalling tactic rather than a permanent solution, but there has been no indication they were failing over time. They have been falling, as in "being actively destroyed".

[Herr Doktor]

Someone noted earlier that Thor remembers because he's one of the good deities. But maybe all the deities started out "good" -- it might have been the strain of starting over so many times, then becoming hardened to the continual destruction, to the point that you no longer bother to remember your followers, that pushes some deities over to the "dark" side.


http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/12.jpg (http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm)

[Resileaf]

Someone noted earlier that Thor remembers because he's one of the good deities. But maybe all the deities started out "good" -- it might have been the strain of starting over so many times, then becoming hardened to the continual destruction, to the point that you no longer bother to remember your followers, that pushes some deities over to the "dark" side.


Well there's nothing that says the other gods don't remember. For all we know, they do. They just haven't told Durkon about it.

[gooddragon1]

The 4th boundary on panel 7 is broken. Just reporting it for visibility.

[KorvinStarmast]

Ah that makes sense. The spell Divine Intervention does this in M&M, but given how much that series borrows from general D&D lore I googled to see if Divine Intervention was a D&D spell.
First Divine Intervention RPG rules I ran across was Empire of the Petal Throne, 1975. Rolling a 1d100 would determine the outcome. (Even stats used 1d100 in EPT). There was a chance of aid, and a chance of being punished ... fun times. :smallsmile:

[Peelee]

Gordon Knot being, of course, a lengendary hero from a world of sapient ropes famed for his ability to find creative solutions to problems.
This is why I love you.

Oh it all comes down to the doily. A path to power that few of ever looked into
I fully back this. Put all my money on black the doily.

[Ruck]

And I think this has something to do with how the party will win. It's a cleverly hidden meta campaign about how so many campaigns end prematurely because of various snags or snarls. Scheduling conflicts, loss of interest by the players or the DM,TPKs.... But in this campaign, the players are actually nearing the end. They, more than anyone else, have a real chance of winning simply by virtue of the fact that they've pushed this far into the campaign without slowing down.

Well, the Giant himself has said (I believe in book 2 commentary) that the Snarl is a representation of the conflicts between players that lead to games breaking up. That said, I don't have an answer as to how this relates to how the party wins.


I'm having a hard time imagining a cyberpunk setting with beings like Thor, Dragon, or Marduk as deities.


Shadowrun says hello.

("You want some magic with your cyberpunk? You want elves? Dragons? Extradimensional monsters that will evenually show up to destroy world?")

Yeah, I was gonna say - Shadowrun is one of my favorite properties and the first thing I thought of.


Once in an eternity opportunity? That's going to need some explanation. It would also suggest direct action by Thor himself would be needed but I suspect that would create a war between the gods and make everything worse.


I have to respectfully disagree with people saying "it's the Gates". Gates are a stalling tactic, not a permanent solution. The Gates in this world are failing even as we speak, to the point that the gods were 50/50 split on rebooting.


Agreed with the Gates being a stalling tactic rather than a permanent solution, but there has been no indication they were failing over time. They have been falling, as in "being actively destroyed".

Yeah, this. I actually think the Gates are unique to this world, and that's been my recent speculation as to the solution, but they're not spontaneously failing. They're being destroyed because people nefarious people seek to control them. (Then again:)

"V and Durkon rebuild the gates" is a bit at odds with "V sacrifices Ultimate Arcane Power forever to disjoin the Crimson Mantle." That said... I think Lirian and Dorukan are still young enough that if Xykon is defeated and the soul gem smashed (or however it works), they could be resurrected and rebuild the Gates themselves.


What's the god of movie theater food?

He's clearly pretzel bites with nacho cheese and a mug of beer.

A Chaotic god no one has ever seen directly, who only appears mysteriously smuggled inside a purse.


Well now I'm trying to figure out how Thor looks to a sapient slice of pizza.

Probably also like a slice of pizza, because what goes with beer better than pizza?

[RMS Oceanic]

Wait, was that a Might & Magic reference?

The Snarl leaves its victims Erradicated. :smallbiggrin:

[Wrandm]

Loving all these callbacks and thank goodness the theater snacks world is canon.

[Fyraltari]

This is why I love you.

:smallredface: I love you, too.

[monomer]

Gordon Knot being, of course, a lengendary hero from a world of sapient ropes famed for his ability to find creative solutions to problems.


A sapient rope walks into a bar, and the bartender says "Hey! Are you a rope?"
The rope answers in the affirmative, and the bartender kicks it out saying "We don't serve ropes here.
So the rope ties itself into a knot, frays boths of its ends, and goe back into the bar.
The bartender yells "Hey! Are you a rope?"
"No, I'm a frayed knot."

[Lizard Lord]

Was this world the first world to have created its own gods? We know for certain that the Dark One was created on this world. We were also told that the Elven Gods came from this world as well, but that could be a deliberate misinterpretation by the elves and they could have instead been made by the elves of a previous world. It looked like the other three pantheons were there for the creation of the first world, but how much can we trust the crayon drawings given what we know now? Personally I felt like the twelve gods didn't really fit with the other pantheons and this would explain why. Finally, if this is the first world to have created its own gods, could that have something to do with how Thor thinks mortals can solve the Snarl problem once and for all?

[DeliaP]

So, there is definitely something special about this world. And something that is relevant to solving the snarl problem permanently.

And the primary options seem to be:

1) Ascended Gods. Requires answering the question "Why weren't mortals able to ascend as gods in past worlds?"

Evidence for:
- strong suggestions that TDO is from the latest world, or else he's been seriously misleading Redcloak about the fallback part of The Plan;
- suggestion in Crayon drawings that the Elven subpantheon were only a little (on this kind of cosmic timescale) older than TDO;
- it being completely bonkers that Dvalin would continue to recreate the Dwarven Council of Clans in subsequent worlds and bind himself to it by his oath;
- if gods could have ascended in past worlds, where are they?

Counter arguments:
- Elves have a pretty sweet setup, which indicates the Elven subpantheon might have had a say in this world's creation;
- Everything recounted through current mortals in Crayons is suspect of said mortals having only being given a partial truth, true only "from a certain perspective";
- Dvalin clearly is completely bonkers anyway, to have not renegotiated his oath when he ascended and the context changed beyond recognition;
- there's lots of ways gods might still be sparse (e.g. ascended gods could be more likely to die or decay somehow, or be so statistically unlikely that even after billions of worlds there's only a few of them).

2) Gates. Requires answering the question "Why has no-one manged to create Gates before?" e.g. is it the first time Epic spellcasting was achieved? Or the first time clerics got to high levels? (Clerics probably existed in previous worlds, for Loki and Hel's bet to make sense, although it is possible Loki and Hel were theoretically discussing the new proposal. N.B. Clerics don't seem to have much to do with creating the Gates, though, just the ritual to control them...)

Evidence for: sealed the rifts, and held them sealed (until some plucky but unlikely heroes decided it would be a good idea to run around blowing the Gates up)

Counter argument: can be blown up, so just not a candidate for holding forever. Sooner or later, something blows each one up.

3) Self-awareness of the inhabitants. No question need answering as to why this is the first - the gods just got desperate and created a world in which (many of) the inhabitants were aware the world ran on narrativist lines.

Evidence for: Thor said it was part of scraping the barrel, and they were desperate for something new.

Counter argument: Thors comment seems as much poking fun about them being stick figures.

4) Stick figures.

Evidence for: Because why would the gods have ever tried this before.

Counter argument: how the Hel could them being stick figures possibly help?

5) The Doily.

Evidence for: a cool throw back; V said it was powerful enough.

Counter argument: it makes less sense than stick figures.

6) Mr Scruffy.

Evidence for: OK, I'm scraping the ideas barrel now.
Counter argument: OK, I'm scraping the ideas barrel now.

[Peelee]

:smallredface: I love you, too.

Hooray! Now, of course, I must continue to argue about Star Wars with you because you're wrong about Star Wars.:smalltongue:

[FlawedParadigm]

So Rich has said before that the comic does not represent a specific group of gamers at a table with a DM.

What we've just learned in the last few strips is that it represents _all_ of them.

[Snails]

Well now I'm trying to figure out how Thor looks to a sapient slice of pizza.

A pimply faced teen at the snack shop? With a friend who is the Grim Broomer who cleans up the discards between showings?

[ManuelSacha]

Wow.
He found a way to make the snacks' gag canon. :smalleek:
Everything has come full circle. :smallbiggrin:

[Psychronia]

A moment of silence for Laser Snail. :smallsigh:
...
...

Meanwhile, Thor continues to be a cool dude and brings hope to the table.


All the worlds that were ever conceived of, billions of stories that were only partially told. Campaigns that ended prematurely because of player conflict, or the GM got bored. Everything from Pathfinder, DnD, Ebberon, Traveller, Shadowrun, VtM, Cthulu, and the myriad Savage Worlds to old school GURPS campaigns, and Rifts. Giant is really getting meta here, we're going way down the rabbit hole.

Not bored, but player conflict for sure. Rather, it's the campaigns that get too difficult to continue because it's hard to keep everything straight-because of a continuity Snarl.

At first, these got messed up quickly. But then the storytellers get better and better at organizing their setting. But then as the setting lasted longer, contradictions would eventually arise again.

[KishouTheBadger]

A parody this world may be, but it is an affectionate parody that respect the world and brings up hilarious and meaningful thoughts. I suppose the next comic will explain how the heroes can stop the Snarl, because it doesn't look like they have any better means to save the world than any other world or world heroes. I mean, look at the Order of the Scribble. Years of work wasted by the minimal effort of the Stick and Team Evil alike.

[Throknor]

I was very tempted last thread to speculate that Odin was behind the bet in the first place to set up Durkon to get this point.

Now it seems even less far-fetched.

[Skull the Troll]

I really like the fact that Durkon and Thor just next to each other contemplating the results of the Gods effort, it is really impressive that a god would show himself in such a position of weakness to a mortal like that. Thor is truly humble. Also that he can still name all of his followers is powerful.

I am really glad that the comic took the time to humanize the deity of the one religious party member, giving us a sense of why Durkon thinks he deserves to be worshipped rather than "just because".

If a was of an uncharitable frame of mind I would suspect that was to shut up 30 pages of comments about how the gods are all uncaring and apethetic. :)

[Snails]

What happened if you Wished for youth?

You become a yourself when you were young: youthful and low level.

(No, it is not explicitly spelled out. But DMs were encouraged to 'eff with a PC who became greedy.)

[WindStruck]

Well now I'm trying to figure out how Thor looks to a sapient slice of pizza.

He is thin crust but also stuffed crust. He has all the toppings and yet none of them. The pizza version of 'Thor' pounds his enemies with a mighty meat tenderizing hammer and smites them with beams of super-concentrated microwave particles.

[DeliaP]

So, there is definitely something special about this world. And something that is relevant to solving the snarl problem permanently.

And the primary options seem to be:
<6 increasingly crazy possibilities>


7) Something's happening inside the Snarl.

Evidence for: Something's clearly happening inside the Snarl. Odin seems to know about it, although so far no-one else seems to.

Counter arguments: How does that fit Thor saying "the once-in-eternity opportunity that your specific world has given us to change things"

[Rogar Demonblud]

"V and Durkon rebuild the gates" is a bit at odds with "V sacrifices Ultimate Arcane Power forever to disjoin the Crimson Mantle." That said... I think Lirian and Dorukan are still young enough that if Xykon is defeated and the soul gem smashed (or however it works), they could be resurrected and rebuild the Gates themselves.

First problem. You need a couple True Res spells.

Second problem. You need Xykon to have not lost that gem.

[Ruck]

I was very tempted last thread to speculate that Odin was behind the bet in the first place to set up Durkon to get this point.

Now it seems even less far-fetched.

Well, Odin gave the prophecy that got Durkon exiled, so I think it's virtually certain that this is why he did that. The bet itself, I don't know.


First problem. You need a couple True Res spells.

Second problem. You need Xykon to have not lost that gem.

I very much doubt Xykon has lost the gem. However, if True Resurrection is necessary than it probably won't happen-- and I don't think this story is going to end with Scribblers bailing the Order out or anything. (Serini's fate, though, is still very much a mystery and seems like it will come up before the end of the story.)

***

Unrelated thought: I think the ascended gods are all from this world. Now that we know the previous worlds have had many different flavors and settings... why would, say, the ascended Elven gods be Elves, if they ascended from, say, Gritty Cyberpunk Talking Animal World or Sentient Movie Theater Snack World?

[FlawedParadigm]

First problem. You need a couple True Res spells.

Second problem. You need Xykon to have not lost that gem.

Wait, when did he lose it? I missed that strip.

[Snails]

7) Something's happening inside the Snarl.

Evidence for: Something's clearly happening inside the Snarl. Odin seems to know about it, although so far no-one else seems to.

Counter arguments: How does that fit Thor saying "the once-in-eternity opportunity that your specific world has given us to change things"

Odin knows that something is happening. But does Odin understand that something? Dunno.

Even Thor can underestimate how right he is when speaking about the Snarl.

It is fair to conclude that the Scribblers were a rare event. Perhaps the first. Perhaps merely one in a million. The question is whether that Scribblers work can be built on by the inhabitants of this world, or is it just a 50 year reprieve?

[Vendanna]

Was this world the first world to have created its own gods? We know for certain that the Dark One was created on this world. We were also told that the Elven Gods came from this world as well, but that could be a deliberate misinterpretation by the elves and they could have instead been made by the elves of a previous world. It looked like the other three pantheons were there for the creation of the first world, but how much can we trust the crayon drawings given what we know now? Personally I felt like the twelve gods didn't really fit with the other pantheons and this would explain why. Finally, if this is the first world to have created its own gods, could that have something to do with how Thor thinks mortals can solve the Snarl problem once and for all?

Obviously the twelve gods come from the world with talking animals, and decided to stay in there. o3o

[WindStruck]

Oh it all comes down to the doily. A path to power that few of ever looked into

A doily... That's it! That's how they can trap the snarl for good! By weaving the threads if reality into a doily!

[hroþila]

Unrelated thought: I think the ascended gods are all from this world. Now that we know the previous worlds have had many different flavors and settings... why would, say, the ascended Elven gods be Elves, if they ascended from, say, Gritty Cyberpunk Talking Animal World or Sentient Movie Theater Snack World?
A possibility would be: "Sorry, o Ascended God of Cappuccinos, but there's no room for your kind as it were in the previous world. However, we can take the essence of your people and give it humanoid form, and you'll be in charge of the resulting creatures". Or simply "no talking hotdogs this once, so here's a new portfolio for you".

Or indeed, "Welcome, o God of the Elves! The new world will have elves too. There's tons of wildly different settings that have elves".

So yes, I would agree that having ascended elvish gods makes it a bit more likely that they are native to this world, but there are so many variables and so few certainties that almost nothing we can say should appreciably tilt the balance.

[Ruck]

Odin knows that something is happening. But does Odin understand that something? Dunno.

You're thinking of Mr. Jones. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC4r3QFnmQ8)

[tyckspoon]

You become a yourself when you were young: youthful and low level.

(No, it is not explicitly spelled out. But DMs were encouraged to 'eff with a PC who became greedy.)

I always kind of wondered why D&D books treat immortality like something players shouldn't be allowed to have; it's precisely the kind of neat in-character goal that seems like a suitable reward for a high-level character to get without actually having any functional impact on the game balance. Being immortal doesn't mean you're invulnerable, or cast better spells, or much of anything aside from that you no longer are concerned about your Age Category. Which, let's be honest, very few people run games across enough of a time span for that to be relevant anyway. (If you don't want immortality to be as easy as 'I cast Wish' then I could see the result of 'I wish to be immortal' being a partial fulfillment of returning to your Young Adult body; you get most of a second life span, and that's basically duplicating Reincarnate + selecting your form instead of rolling. Should be well within Wish's power level. Or giving you no maximum age limit but still rendering you subject to aging penalties, so you need to seek some additional magic to maintain your vitality. "You reverted yourself to a teenager, including being Level 1/a 0 HD nobody" seems unnecessarily spiteful unless you're doing the whole game in an adversarial fashion, in which case casting Wish at all is a huge deathtrap that any smart player would recognize.)

[dtilque]

Soda makes a pun when attacking Pizza. Think he's taken the Dashing Swordsman class?

[The Recreator]

Whatever it is about the Order of the Stick and the Stickiverse that’s created a once-in-an-eternity opportunity, can we agree that it’ll be meta as hell?

[valuedmember]

Rest in peace, Laser Snail... you were too good for that world, and possibly the next few the gods made after that as well.

[D.One]

A sapient rope walks into a bar, and the bartender says "Hey! Are you a rope?"
The rope answers in the affirmative, and the bartender kicks it out saying "We don't serve ropes here.
So the rope ties itself into a knot, frays boths of its ends, and goe back into the bar.
The bartender yells "Hey! Are you a rope?"
"No, I'm a frayed knot."

We'll get enlaced with this kind of joke...


I was very tempted last thread to speculate that Odin was behind the bet in the first place to set up Durkon to get this point.

Now it seems even less far-fetched.

Totally called this last thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23347543&postcount=37).


Second problem. You need Xykon to have not lost that gem.

Xykon being Xykon, it probably is lost, used as a leveller for some old table.

[SilverCacaobean]

Hah, that was hilarious. Funny callbacks and that explains a lot indeed.

You know, these last updates have made me like Thor. I was very critical of him before, but I guess we just hadn't seen him at his best moments.

[Resileaf]

I always kind of wondered why D&D books treat immortality like something players shouldn't be allowed to have; it's precisely the kind of neat in-character goal that seems like a suitable reward for a high-level character to get without actually having any functional impact on the game balance. Being immortal doesn't mean you're invulnerable, or cast better spells, or much of anything aside from that you no longer are concerned about your Age Category. Which, let's be honest, very few people run games across enough of a time span for that to be relevant anyway. (If you don't want immortality to be as easy as 'I cast Wish' then I could see the result of 'I wish to be immortal' being a partial fulfillment of returning to your Young Adult body; you get most of a second life span, and that's basically duplicating Reincarnate + selecting your form instead of rolling. Should be well within Wish's power level. Or giving you no maximum age limit but still rendering you subject to aging penalties, so you need to seek some additional magic to maintain your vitality. "You reverted yourself to a teenager, including being Level 1/a 0 HD nobody" seems unnecessarily spiteful unless you're doing the whole game in an adversarial fashion, in which case casting Wish at all is a huge deathtrap that any smart player would recognize.)

It's less something against the players and more against most mortals in that setting. I'd wager that the gods hate a mortal giving themselves immortality since it infringes on their domains. And you never know how powerful someone who never dies can become given enough time. Strong enough to rival the gods is something they'd want to avoid at all costs.

[Arin]

Y'know, I'm wondering now whether Thor might have something in mind. Like say...

V and Durkon casting the same ritual that Xykon and Redcloak are planning, but to move the Gate somewhere where the Snarl can't get at anyone.

The one thing that STILL doesn't seem to fit anywhere into this is what that planet-within-the-planet thing is all about.

[kiapet]

I wonder if anyone from the previous worlds made Gates, or if that's unique to this one...

[Kish]

While I am not digging out my old books to check, I suspect 1ed/2ed (the editions that had magical aging, assuming 5ed hasn't brought it back) also had specific indications of exactly what the result should be if someone used a wish for youth.

[Shining Wrath]

I hypothesize that the gods take a form appropriate to each world. The elven gods look like elves because we're in a world where there are elves. In Movie Theater Snack world they resembled mozzarella sticks. In Cyberpunk Talking Animals world they were the dolphins with integrated chain guns. And so on.

I assume we'll find out soon what is unique about this iteration, but the ultimate call back would be to strip #1 - when everyone upgraded to version 3.5. Hypothesis: something about the 3.5 rules makes it possible for the Snarl to be sealed away forever.

For further completely speculative fun, it's a power possessed by one person in the strip. Not Durkon; not V; not even Roy's or his sword.

It's MitD. He is the key. He has the power to seal away the Snarl, because he's a 3.5 specific monster that has the specific spell-like ability that will do the job. :smallbiggrin:

[DeliaP]

Unrelated thought: I think the ascended gods are all from this world. Now that we know the previous worlds have had many different flavors and settings... why would, say, the ascended Elven gods be Elves, if they ascended from, say, Gritty Cyberpunk Talking Animal World or Sentient Movie Theater Snack World?

I suspect you are right, but to be fair, it looks like we're going to have to allow a Gritty Cyberpunk world (not the talking animal one) which has Gods of Magic, Dragons and Monsters (and even Fire and Frost Giants, if not all Demi-gods are necessarily ascended). So either god's portfolios can be changed or at least adapted in some way, to suit the setting, or else there are some pretty weird churches in some settings.


Obviously the twelve gods come from the world with talking animals, and decided to stay in there. o3o

It's possible that Dragon, Tiamat and Fenrir are recent ascensions. Although why dragons would need to have two different gods ascend, and be accepted into two different pantheons, is a bit weird. But, at least according to the Crayons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html), Dragon, Tiamat and Odin existed at the time of the creation of the Snarl in the very first world. Dragon and Odin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) are even identified as the Chiefs of their pantheons.

[blunk]

My pet idea is that the Dark One's Ritual has never been created until this world, and that Thor wants it (once suitably modified) to be used to transfer the five Gates to the five Good planes, where they can be properly guarded. Maybe he "acquired" the Ritual somehow and will teach it to Durkon.

And maybe the IFCC has similar ideas.

PS. I won't defend this idea because, you know, OOTS forum arguments :-)

[TaRix]

Does this mean a certain someone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0091.html) was a plane-hopping agent of the gods? We must remember his sacrifice. (nomnomnom)

[SilverCacaobean]

I just realised, this thing Thor said (that this specific world offers a unique opportunity) makes the Dark One's plan B even worse. Sorry if someone mentioned it, I haven't caught up yet.

Before the last two strips, his plan B seemed to mean that the next world would not be in danger of getting destroyed because of the snarl getting loose. Before this revelation we didn't know if there was something special with this particular world. Now, though, it could mean that the one chance there is of the snarl getting defeated could be lost.

[Corian]

And I think this has something to do with how the party will win. It's a cleverly hidden meta campaign about how so many campaigns end prematurely because of various snags or snarls. Scheduling conflicts, loss of interest by the players or the DM,TPKs.... But in this campaign, the players are actually nearing the end. They, more than anyone else, have a real chance of winning simply by virtue of the fact that they've pushed this far into the campaign without slowing down.

:roy: We're the ones who are too dumb to know when to quit. (#946 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html))

[Corian]

Thor hasn't outright said it, but I get the feeling that Loki's approach of waiting to the last minute is the reason why in some worlds they didn't "save everyone by killing them". Waiting until the very last moment means the gods can get out of harm's way, but won't have time to kill all their followers and collect their souls. By "Pulling the Plug", Loki meant "abandoning the world to the Snarl".


Hmmm... could be, but it could simply mean that the snarl tore the world up before the gods could act. We do not know that "cashing in on the souls" takes any time at all.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Wait, when did he lose it? I missed that strip.

Given that he keeps losing the keys that are in the same pocket...

More on point, if he was still keeping the gem in his front pocket, well, that body got blown up over a thousand strips ago. If he wasn't keeping it in his pocket, that whole dungeon got blown up over a thousand strips ago.

I think you can see the problem.

[Reboot]

Y'know, I'm wondering now whether Thor might have something in mind. Like say...

V and Durkon casting the same ritual that Xykon and Redcloak are planning, but to move the Gate somewhere where the Snarl can't get at anyone.

My thoughts too.


Given that he keeps losing the keys that are in the same pocket...

More on point, if he was still keeping the gem in his front pocket, well, that body got blown up over a thousand strips ago. If he wasn't keeping it in his pocket, that whole dungeon got blown up over a thousand strips ago.

I think you can see the problem.

Yet, he still had the Cloister headband...

[Jasdoif]

Soda makes a pun when attacking Pizza. Think he's taken the Dashing Swordsman class?Maybe the Dashing Swordsman class is based on Soda.

[DaOldeWolf]

Wait a minute....
does that mean that the food intermission comic is canon to the Order of the Stick?! :smalleek:

[Ruck]

Xykon being Xykon, it probably is lost, used as a leveller for some old table.

Ten gold says Xykon has not lost the black soul gem. (Xykon is often inattentive toward things he doesn't care about, but he's not stupid.)

[CantigThimble]

I kinda have to wonder, why exactly is Hel's plan to gain a bunch of dwarf souls a big deal? Surely in the endless series of worlds before this one stuff like this has happened before and it hasn't upset the balance of power in the pantheon that much. I mean, as far as immortals are concerned isn't destroying a world and harvesting all the souls in it basically a normal Tuesday?

I also have to wonder, do the pantheons of gods always take the forms they have here or is that particular to each one? I mean, copying real life pantheons certainly fits in a self-aware-parody world, but would the gods appear differently in other worlds? Or not directly appear at all? I mean, I have to imagine that at least in the talking animal world they didn't look like humans.

[Cirin]

More likely a 1e/2e reference - I think the Wish spell (both clerics and wizards got Wish) did that when cast.

Clerics didn't get a "Wish" spell until 3e, when it was called "Miracle"

In 1e and 2e, Cleric spells stopped at 7th level (which they got at 14th level). Spells like True Resurrection and Miracle were new to 3e and ways Clerics (and Druids) got a lot more powerful.

Wish DID age the caster 5 years though, and Limited Wish aged the caster 1 year, in 1e and 2e AD&D. Before 3e introduced XP costs for spellcasting, the typical way they made powerful spells restricted to limited use was to make them age the caster every time. In translating between editions, it came out to about 1,000 XP per year of aging.

[Doug Lampert]

My pet idea is that the Dark One's Ritual has never been created until this world, and that Thor wants it (once suitably modified) to be used to transfer the five Gates to the five Good planes, where they can be properly guarded. Maybe he "acquired" the Ritual somehow and will teach it to Durkon.

And maybe the IFCC has similar ideas.

PS. I won't defend this idea because, you know, OOTS forum arguments :-)

Not to pick on you specifically (plenty of people have suggested reinforcing or rebuilding the gates). But, the thing about theories dealing with making the gates permanent or guarding them forever is, "so what"?

Seriously, the snarl claws at the walls of his prison, eventually he creates rifts. If you can somehow seal those rifts, that's real handy if and only if, the snarl never claws at different parts of his prison. I assume the five known rifts were weak-spots in the fabric of reality where it tore through first, I see no reason to assume that it can only ever make five rifts and will keep futilely clawing at those same spots forever.

If the snarl only has five places it can break through, then the gods just need to make a universe with five fewer weaknesses, and that sounds like they're almost done, not like a once in eternity opportunity.

The prison IS the material world, the snarl claws at the prison from the inside. As long as it keeps doing so and there are any weaknesses it can claw through, it will eventually create more rifts. A patch is all very nice, but it's just a patch, it doesn't somehow make the resulting fabric untearable elsewhere.

[Kish]

Ten gold says the gem with Lirian and Dorukan's souls has not been destroyed off-panel.

[Ruck]

I kinda have to wonder, why exactly is Hel's plan to gain a bunch of dwarf souls a big deal? Surely in the endless series of worlds before this one stuff like this has happened before and it hasn't upset the balance of power in the pantheon that much. I mean, as far as immortals are concerned isn't destroying a world and harvesting all the souls in it basically a normal Tuesday?

Because this is the first world where Hel has this bet, and I highly doubt it's normal that one god gains an enormous amount of soul-power far disproportionate to the others.

Plus, there was a whole thread on it at the time. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?437655-Why-are-10-million-dwarf-souls-even-important/page2&p=19745902#post19745902) If the rest of the gods treat it like it matters, then it matters.

[zimmerwald1915]

Ten gold says the gem with Lirian and Dorukan's souls has not been destroyed off-panel.
No bet. However, 20 gold says that the gem containing Lirian's and Dorukan's souls will not be destroyed on-panel either.

[hroþila]

I kinda have to wonder, why exactly is Hel's plan to gain a bunch of dwarf souls a big deal? Surely in the endless series of worlds before this one stuff like this has happened before and it hasn't upset the balance of power in the pantheon that much. I mean, as far as immortals are concerned isn't destroying a world and harvesting all the souls in it basically a normal Tuesday?
Well, first of all, it matters to the dwarves and other Good mortals, and that is enough.
Secondly, in a way, you're right. That's probably one of the reasons why many gods would see putting Hel in power as not enough of a deal breaker to change their vote even if they could.

But thirdly, if Hel ends up as queen of the Northern Pantheon thanks to this, that might give her the tools she needs to perpetuate herself as the head of the pantheon. That alone is likely a pretty big deal for many gods.

[Kish]

No bet. However, 20 gold says that the gem containing Lirian's and Dorukan's souls will not be destroyed on-panel either.
Assuming that includes after Xykon's destruction, you're on.

[Ezekiel]

Panel 6 needs to be on a shirt

Love the callbacks :smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

Assuming that includes after Xykon's destruction, you're on.

Yep, the gem's destruction and the freeing of those souls is IMAO quite likely.

[JumboWheat01]

...I now want a laser snail for a familiar on my wizard.

[Crisis21]

Oh man, the colon tumor. Man, that was a callback.

Call back to strip #7 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html) from strip #1140 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html). A 1133-strip difference. Yeah, I'd call that one heck of a callback.


In other news, I do like how Thor says he remembers everyone who ever worshipped him. Moment of Heartwarming and Tearjerker right there.

[Cirin]

Wait a minute....
does that mean that the food intermission comic is canon to the Order of the Stick?! :smalleek:

Oddly enough. . .I think it does.

I never would have thought he'd work *that* into the storyline somehow.

[Peelee]

No bet. However, 20 gold says that the gem containing Lirian's and Dorukan's souls will not be destroyed on-panel either.


Assuming that includes after Xykon's destruction, you're on.

I want in on this action. On Kish's side.

[DeliaP]

I re-read the comic and suddenly realised a really minor thing, but I wanted to say it.

Up until this comic (even including the last one) I'd been assuming that the infodump that Thor was going to give was going to be a big negative one: "Durkon, things are really screwed up in ways you haven't even conceived, everything is going to go real bad unless you can do something impossible..." kind of way.

But actually, it turns out Thor is giving a (qualified!) positive info-dump: "Durkon, things are bad, way worse than you ever conceived, but there's something new here, a ray of hope to put things right. You just have to do something impossible....."

OK, not a big shift in perspective, but there nonetheless.....

[Fyraltari]

A genie showed up and kicked you in the nutsAnd then tasered them for about an hour.
Now, that's unnecessarily crude, genies have more class than this.

A youth was teleported to your location, I would guess :amused:
2e encouraged DMs to twist wishes if they were overpowered.

You become a yourself when you were young: youthful and low level.

(No, it is not explicitly spelled out. But DMs were encouraged to 'eff with a PC who became greedy.)
That's more like it.


A sapient rope walks into a bar, and the bartender says "Hey! Are you a rope?"
The rope answers in the affirmative, and the bartender kicks it out saying "We don't serve ropes here.
So the rope ties itself into a knot, frays boths of its ends, and goe back into the bar.
The bartender yells "Hey! Are you a rope?"
"No, I'm a frayed knot."
That's terrible. I require more.

Hooray! Now, of course, I must continue to argue about Star Wars with you because you're wrong about Star Wars.:smalltongue:
Great, that's pretty fun! Though, you should watch yourself if we ever end up arguing about Tolkien's Legendarium.


Or indeed, "Welcome, o God of the Elves! The new world will have elves too. There's tons of wildly different settings that have elves".

"Elves? We said Sci-fi this time!
-Bah, We'll just call them Eldar, it's the same.
-That's just Elvish for Elf! Can't you do subtler?
-Minbari? Protoss? Time lord?"

Wait a minute....
does that mean that the food intermission comic is canon to the Order of the Stick?! :smalleek:
Yes, And vengeance has finally been served.

[KorvinStarmast]

Wow.
He found a way to make the snacks' gag canon. :smalleek:
Everything has come full circle. :smallbiggrin: A pizza is a full circle. QED.

A doily... That's it! That's how they can trap the snarl for good! By weaving the threads if reality into a doily! And another great call back, if done (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html). Here's hoping.

[Peelee]

Great, that's pretty fun! Though, you should watch yourself if we ever end up arguing about Tolkien's Legendarium.

Nah, I'm pretty sure I'm right about how Sauron went back in time after ROTK with far less power and renamed himself Saruman in an attempt to subvert the timeline and shift the power back to his old self.

[Keltest]

Nah, I'm pretty sure I'm right about how Sauron went back in time after ROTK with far less power and renamed himself Saruman in an attempt to subvert the timeline and shift the power back to his old self.

That would be a heck of a long time, only for his plan to not work.

[Doug Lampert]

Nah, I'm pretty sure I'm right about how Sauron went back in time after ROTK with far less power and renamed himself Saruman in an attempt to subvert the timeline and shift the power back to his old self.

Hmm, I believe that I can safely say that I know of no logical way to even approach that statement, much less to refute it.

Edited to add blue color, because this is the internet.


That would be a heck of a long time, only for his plan to not work.

Evil in Tolkien's universe is ultimately self-defeating. Evil can ONLY win in the short run.

[Fyraltari]

Nah, I'm pretty sure I'm right about how Sauron went back in time after ROTK with far less power and renamed himself Saruman in an attempt to subvert the timeline and shift the power back to his old self.

Why must you hurt me?

[Peelee]

Hmm, I believe that I can safely say that I know of no logical way to even approach that statement, much less to refute it.

That is the best possible response I could have hoped for.


That would be a heck of a long time, only for his plan to not work.

Why must you hurt me?

Oh, just wait until the corollary that he also went back and became each of the kings of men, do that he could hunt down the Ring in an active capacity as well.

Every villain is a time-travelling Sauron.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I mean, as far as immortals are concerned isn't destroying a world and harvesting all the souls in it basically a normal Tuesday?

More like Friday the 13th. You know it's going to happen, but not necessarily when.


"Elves? We said Sci-fi this time!
-Bah, We'll just call them Eldar, it's the same.
-That's just Elvish for Elf! Can't you do subtler?
-Minbari? Protoss? Time lord?"

Those are some odd ways of spelling 'Vulcan'.

[Keltest]

That is the best possible response I could have hoped for.




Oh, just wait until the corollary that he also went back and became each of the kings of men, do that he could hunt down the Ring in an active capacity as well.

Every villain is a time-travelling Sauron.

Sauron was his own father? And also cut the ring from his own hand? Yes! It makes so much sense now!

[DeliaP]

Nah, I'm pretty sure I'm right about how Sauron went back in time after ROTK with far less power and renamed himself Saruman in an attempt to subvert the timeline and shift the power back to his old self.


That would be a heck of a long time, only for his plan to not work.

Well, after that he went back in time after ROTK with far less power and renamed himself Bill Ferny in an attempt to subvert the timeline and shift power to his Saruman self.

[hroþila]

Oh, just wait until the corollary that he also went back and became each of the kings of men, do that he could hunt down the Ring in an active capacity as well.

Every villain is a time-travelling Sauron.
I suppose that would explain why the Sauron from that timeline was so weakened that he could only appear as a literal burning eye.

[Crisis21]

one might think that there's enough mass in these memorials to create a whole planet without needing the threads.

They're on the Ethereal Plane. Technically nothing there actually has mass.


Rich Burlew, 2003:Go long! Go long!
Rich Burlew, 2005:Got it!
Rich Burlew, 2003:Longer!
Rich Burlew, 2009:W00t! Thanks!
Rich Burlew, 2003:Even longer!
Rich Burlew, 2013:I gotcha!
Rich Burlew, 2003:No, no, longer! Looooooooongeeeeeeeeeeer!
Rich Burlew, 2018:Wait, what? :gets hit by joke: OW!
Rich Burlew, 2003:TOUCHDOWN! Totally worth it!

Okay, I laughed. :smallbiggrin:



I have to respectfully disagree with people saying "it's the Gates". Gates are a stalling tactic, not a permanent solution. The Gates in this world are failing even as we speak, to the point that the gods were 50/50 split on rebooting.

The only reason the Gates are failing is because people keep breaking them. If it wasn't for that little detail, they'd be going just as strong as ever.

[CantigThimble]

Because this is the first world where Hel has this bet, and I highly doubt it's normal that one god gains an enormous amount of soul-power far disproportionate to the others.

Plus, there was a whole thread on it at the time. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?437655-Why-are-10-million-dwarf-souls-even-important/page2&p=19745902#post19745902) If the rest of the gods treat it like it matters, then it matters.

I have difficulty believing that this is the first time a power swing like this has come up in all those worlds, especially considering how much time conniving Gods like Hel have to plan. (not to mention blind chance)

Okay, sure, "It matters." Now I have to ask: Why? How good an answer to that question there is makes or breaks stories all the time.

I must admit, the Giant's attitude in that thread grinds my gears. Sure, he's not obligated to give us answers we like to any of the questions about his world, but we're not obligated to think his story elements are good just because its convenient for the plot. The existence of good answers (whether or not they're directly revealed) makes a difference in the quality of a story. This has just been amped up to 11 by these last 2 strips because a big "the entire story up to now was actually just a tiny part of something much more important all along" reveal is very often where otherwise good stories go off the rails to crash and burn.

[Fyraltari]

I suppose that would explain why the Sauron from that timeline was so weakened that he could only appear as a literal burning eye.

The movies are an alternate timeline? Well they do skip 19 years, after all.

[ThePhantasm]

I'm not sure how I feel about Thor's revelations so far. I've enjoyed the "self-awareness" of the strip as a kind of running joke, I don't know how I feel about it possibly becoming central to the narrative in some kind of "meta" way. I'm not really a fan of that kind of stuff.

Rich is a good writer, however, so I'm giving the narrative the benefit of the doubt until I know more.

[DeliaP]

The only reason the Gates are failing is because people keep breaking them. If it wasn't for that little detail, they'd be going just as strong as ever.

But the fact is: they're breakable. It only took a sword to break Soon's and Draketooth's Gates and a forest fire to destroy Lirian's. And that means eventually something is going to break them, even if only accidentally. It may buy the world 100,000 years more time, but it's still not permanent.


I'm not sure how I feel about Thor's revelations so far. I've enjoyed the "self-awareness" of the strip as a kind of running joke, I don't know how I feel about it possibly becoming central to the narrative in some kind of "meta" way. I'm not really a fan of that kind of stuff.

I strongly believe that the self-awareness of the current world is going to be about as relevant to the solution to the snarl as the fact that they're stick figures will be. I think it's just the Giant making a self-deprecating meta-self-awareness joke (a self-awareness joke about being self-aware! woohoo!) Add the fact that "sentient movie theatre snacks" and "gritty cyberpunk talking animals" are worlds, and the thing I'm taking away is that the plethora of previous worlds isn't going to be relevant to the ongoing plot.

[Bubble181]

Y'know, I'm wondering now whether Thor might have something in mind. Like say...

V and Durkon casting the same ritual that Xykon and Redcloak are planning, but to move the Gate somewhere where the Snarl can't get at anyone.

The one thing that STILL doesn't seem to fit anywhere into this is what that planet-within-the-planet thing is all about.

I agree with this. The Snarl is made from Divine power, so it would make sense Arcane could somehow help contain it. The Ritual for moving the Rifts may or may not be unique, but who knows? Thor did say he was going to ask something hard of Durkon - it may just have been his resurrection, but I'm betting on "work together with Redcloak and TDO".

And, in fact, I'll go one further, and say that, to do this, they'll have to move the Snarl (an/or the rifts) to an Arcane plane, which would mean that there's no more Arcane magic left in the world. In other words, V will have to give up their Arcane magic to save the world.

[KrankenWagon]

And I think this has something to do with how the party will win. It's a cleverly hidden meta campaign about how so many campaigns end prematurely because of various snags or snarls. Scheduling conflicts, loss of interest by the players or the DM,TPKs.... But in this campaign, the players are actually nearing the end. They, more than anyone else, have a real chance of winning simply by virtue of the fact that they've pushed this far into the campaign without slowing down.

Interesting thought on this point, If something happens to Rich so that he is unable to finish OOTS, my personal head canon would be that they ran out of time and the Snarl broke free / the gods destroyed the world and created another.

[Snails]

But the fact is: they're breakable. It only took a sword to break Soon's and Draketooth's Gates and a forest fire to destroy Lirian's. And that means eventually something is going to break them, even if only accidentally. It may buy the world 100,000 years more time, but it's still not permanent.

Consider the larger context.

Life is impermanent.

On this here RL planet we live on, there will probably not be life more complex than a flat worm in a billion years or so.

In the OotSverse, it is highly likely that no world reached its 10,000th birthday. Ever. A solution that could plausibly last 100,000 years is quite a leg up.

[Doug Lampert]

But the fact is: they're breakable. It only took a sword to break Soon's and Draketooth's Gates and a forest fire to destroy Lirian's. And that means eventually something is going to break them, even if only accidentally. It may buy the world 100,000 years more time, but it's still not permanent.

Agreed, and I completely fail to understand this belief that if you stop 5 rips in the fabric of reality, the thing trapped inside the world, and made of the same stuff as the world, and capable of destroying billions of prior worlds, will simply go, "Eh, I give up, I guess if those five rips can't be expanded, I'll never escape." Rather than going, "Rip, Rip, Rip, Tear, Tear, Tear, Fold, Spindle, Mutilate, bwahaha, now there are 57 rips in reality, more to come soon!"

If the entire universe were made of nothing but gates, you might have something, but these are patches in a much larger fabric, and we know that the fabric is insufficiently strong and fails in time.

[Shieldr]

My guess is that the primary difference between this world and all of the ones that came before it is that this iteration is being observed.

[DeliaP]

Consider the larger context.

Life is impermanent.

On this here RL planet we live on, there will probably not be life more complex than a flat worm in a billion years or so.

In the OotSverse, it is highly likely that no world reached its 10,000th birthday. Ever. A solution that could plausibly last 100,000 years is quite a leg up.

Absolutely in agreement. The jump from the current world life expectancy to even 10,000 is big and for the inhabitants of those worlds that is incredibly significant.

But it doesn't seem to mesh with Thor's words "the once-in-eternity opportunity that your specific world has given us to change things - maybe forever!".

It also doesn't solve the problem of Hel and the Dwarves. Because even if OotS succeed in protecting the last Gate and restoring a solution that will last for 10,000 years, then (unless the entire Dwarven race die out in that time) Hel will still gain however many million Dwarven souls are alive when the Gates finally do give in.

(And incidentally become Queen of the North in the next world, but I consider that less obviously important than the millions of Dwarves that will suffer unjustly in Hel's domain).


So, I suspect a more permanent solution than even 100,000 year Gates is on the cards.....

[Gwynfrid]

Such a fantastic strip. The call-out to millions and millions of RPG campaigns and worlds is so spot-on, including the silliness, the earnestness, the premature deaths, and the nostalgia left behind, for so many of them. Thor's "I remember everyone" line is the most poignant line spoken by a god (and one the most poignant by anyone) in the whole comic. Then, the callbacks to early days are delicious, as always!

[Shashakiro]

Divine Intervention in Might and Magic 2 is almost definitely a relative of 2e Wish, since it actually has the exact same aging penalty (5 year aging) and effects reminiscent of the “sample” Wish description, i.e. raises all dead and cures all wounded in party, though of course there is no open-ended “do anything” effect in a ‘80s CRPG.

That said, it wasn’t until MM6 that Divine Intervention was changed to have a 10 year aging penalty, and as MM6 is certainly the most famous in the series, that’s probably what RMS had in mind. But it’s not wrong to say that it’s ultimatlely a Wish reference too.

[DeliaP]

Agreed, and I completely fail to understand this belief that if you stop 5 rips in the fabric of reality, the thing trapped inside the world, and made of the same stuff as the world, and capable of destroying billions of prior worlds, will simply go, "Eh, I give up, I guess if those five rips can't be expanded, I'll never escape." Rather than going, "Rip, Rip, Rip, Tear, Tear, Tear, Fold, Spindle, Mutilate, bwahaha, now there are 57 rips in reality, more to come soon!"

If the entire universe were made of nothing but gates, you might have something, but these are patches in a much larger fabric, and we know that the fabric is insufficiently strong and fails in time.

For the record, I'm in agreement with you.

But in the interests of balance: it could be that the problem with the fabric of reality (of which the Snarl is a tangle) and why the gods haven't been able to create a rip-free world, is some equivalent of the Hairy ball theorem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_ball_theorem). There's no way to brush the threads of reality without there being "bald spots" (or dislocations) at places, and these are the places where rips can form. But the Gates act like removing the bald spot from the fabric of reality, changing its topology, and allowing a bald-spot (and hence rip-) free world.

The bad news is that the current world is just the proof-of-concept.

[Particle_Man]

My guess is that the primary difference between this world and all of the ones that came before it is that this iteration is being observed.

So maybe we readers all have to clap their hands to say they do believe in fairies (or at least the OOTS world), like in the book Peter Pan? :smallsmile:

Anyhow, cool comic!

[Shining Wrath]

A Gate which can be created by mortals can, arguably, be repaired by mortals.

If 5 Rifts can be sealed by mortals, arguably, so can 6, 7, ..., N. Can the Snarl create Rifts faster than mortals can seal them?

It's possible that the Order of the Scribble's failure is a metaphor for the larger failure of the Gods that created the Snarl - had the Scribblers remained a cohesive unit, they would have been able to respond to threats to the various gates as a team rather than as individuals. Xykon might have had a problem taking on a whole party instead of Dorukan by himself - he might not have even tried.

Durkon's task might not be "defeat the Snarl". It may be "keep the Order of the Stick together until you can reseal the Gates - and then after that you must train up a new generation of Gate sealers and repairers, who will train their successors, and so on throughout history". This would flash back to Roy's comment that what the Order needed was not a cleric; what they needed was ... Durkon.

[ken]

... Or... Mr Scruffy will level up and the snarl will become his yarn toy!

:-)

Ken

[137beth]

Wow, they managed to work in callbacks to both the colon tumor and the snacks!

[Jeivar]

Okay, someone please refresh my memory: What's this about a colon tumour?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Okay, someone please refresh my memory: What's this about a colon tumour?

It wasn't that long ago. A mere 1133 strips ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html). Practically yesterday.

Grey Wolf

[gooddragon1]

If we can just get this continuity to be as weird as I recently discovered the elder scrolls one is it'll be good.

[jwhouk]

Just, wow. Not only every D&D campaign ever, but every RPG campaign EVER. Even the weird ones, like "movie theater snacks"!

And a huge callback to DCF and the "Dial-a-Thor" Colon Tumor! EXCELLENT.

And a big WTG for the self-effacing "bottom of the idea barrel" "self-aware stick figure fantasy parody."

[Corian]

My guess is that the primary difference between this world and all of the ones that came before it is that this iteration is being observed.

Yes, I was coming to a similar conclusion. How to get the players to keep playing and not give up the campaign: Give them an audience! And the self-aware stick figure fantasy parody gave them a sizeable audience, so this world could last longer than most D&D campaigns... 15 years ain't half bad!

[Mandor]

Just as well Thor didn't talk about the world populated entirely by walking talking trees.

[dtilque]

Maybe the Dashing Swordsman class is based on Soda.

Maybe someone was drinking a soda while watching an Errol Flynn movie and said, "Aha! Let's make a class called Soda."

[Draconi Redfir]

Just as well Thor didn't talk about the world populated entirely by walking talking trees.

I Am Groot?

[Crisis21]

For the record, I'm in agreement with you.

But in the interests of balance: it could be that the problem with the fabric of reality (of which the Snarl is a tangle) and why the gods haven't been able to create a rip-free world, is some equivalent of the Hairy ball theorem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_ball_theorem). There's no way to brush the threads of reality without there being "bald spots" (or dislocations) at places, and these are the places where rips can form. But the Gates act like removing the bald spot from the fabric of reality, changing its topology, and allowing a bald-spot (and hence rip-) free world.

The bad news is that the current world is just the proof-of-concept.

So... the Gates are toupees on the head of reality?

[CJG]

Now the real question, Is the Sorceror’s Fruit Pie from the movie theatre snack world, or another world inhabited solely by sentient fruit pies?

[FlawedParadigm]

While I am not digging out my old books to check, I suspect 1ed/2ed (the editions that had magical aging, assuming 5ed hasn't brought it back) also had specific indications of exactly what the result should be if someone used a wish for youth.

I know 2e suggested wishing for immortality turned you into a statue. I don't remember if "eternal youth" was in that clause too or not.


Yep, the gem's destruction and the freeing of those souls is IMAO quite likely.

Not to mention possibly plot-critical - if the gates need re-sealing, that gem happens to contain the only two confirmed non-evil epic casters in the Stickverse (aside from V's mentor, if epic - but still no known divine counterpart there.) Not to mention Lirian is the only one aside from Redcloak to know the Divine half.

Which may or may not end up being important overall, but it's definitely there.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

...am I the only one a little grossed out that Soda seems to have hair on its straw? Maybe it's just the accordion of the bendy portion but now I can't unsee it...

[DeliaP]

So... the Gates are toupees on the head of reality?

Um... if you're going to take the topological-space-to-hair-style-to-fabric-of-the-world analogy seriously.... my suggestion is the Gates are more like Trepanning the Skull of Reality.

[Spore]

...am I the only one a little grossed out that Soda seems to have hair on its straw? Maybe it's just the accordion of the bendy portion but now I can't unsee it...

Probably. I am currently thinking about a Paladin archetype that incorporates "Detect Cholesterol" and "Smite Obesity".

[FlawedParadigm]

Probably. I am currently thinking about a Paladin archetype that incorporates "Detect Cholesterol" and "Smite Obesity".

With Cure Diabetes 1/week and Summon Paladin Floss Steed?

[Skull the Troll]

Ten gold says Xykon has not lost the black soul gem. (Xykon is often inattentive toward things he doesn't care about, but he's not stupid.)

More importantly, hes malicious. He wants the two of them to be suffer for forever. He'll hang on to the gem to keep that up.

[factotum]

Now the real question, Is the Sorceror’s Fruit Pie from the movie theatre snack world, or another world inhabited solely by sentient fruit pies?

Well, he can't be from the movie snack world because it was destroyed by the Snarl. In fact, since the Gods only seem to create one world at a time, for some reason one of the Gods must have decided that a sentient fruit pie fit in with the stick figure theme and included it for their own reasons... :smallwink:

[Spore]

With Cure Diabetes 1/week and Summon Paladin Floss Steed?

Please and thank you! :smallsmile:

Why stop there? Every deity should have followers. the four cornerstones of alignments.



Paladin of Eating Healthy and doing Sports
Paladin of Eating what you want and doing Sports


Paladin of Eating Healthy and scrutinizing everyone else for their food choices
Paladin of Eating EVERYTHING!

[Angelalex242]

I like how compassionate Thor is, both in this panel and previous. Definitely he's learned some humility.

[Phantom Thief]

I had made a guess like 6 years ago that the Order of the Stick will end up destroying all the gates and fighting the Snarl, because of that one throwaway line that said humans might be more able than Gods to hurt it.

I think that possibility is back on the tavle, and Thor is maybe about to recommend it.

[Ruck]

I have difficulty believing that this is the first time a power swing like this has come up in all those worlds, especially considering how much time conniving Gods like Hel have to plan. (not to mention blind chance)

Okay, sure, "It matters." Now I have to ask: Why? How good an answer to that question there is makes or breaks stories all the time.

I must admit, the Giant's attitude in that thread grinds my gears. Sure, he's not obligated to give us answers we like to any of the questions about his world, but we're not obligated to think his story elements are good just because its convenient for the plot. The existence of good answers (whether or not they're directly revealed) makes a difference in the quality of a story. This has just been amped up to 11 by these last 2 strips because a big "the entire story up to now was actually just a tiny part of something much more important all along" reveal is very often where otherwise good stories go off the rails to crash and burn.

I mean, I'm sure you're not going to like this answer either, but:


Surely in the endless series of worlds before this one stuff like this has happened before and it hasn't upset the balance of power in the pantheon that much. I mean, as far as immortals are concerned isn't destroying a world and harvesting all the souls in it basically a normal Tuesday?


Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?

Your assumption is that this has happened before and not been a big deal. Given that the characters in the story in the position to know best think it is a big deal, maybe your assumption is wrong?


A Gate which can be created by mortals can, arguably, be repaired by mortals.

If 5 Rifts can be sealed by mortals, arguably, so can 6, 7, ..., N. Can the Snarl create Rifts faster than mortals can seal them?

It's possible that the Order of the Scribble's failure is a metaphor for the larger failure of the Gods that created the Snarl - had the Scribblers remained a cohesive unit, they would have been able to respond to threats to the various gates as a team rather than as individuals. Xykon might have had a problem taking on a whole party instead of Dorukan by himself - he might not have even tried.

Durkon's task might not be "defeat the Snarl". It may be "keep the Order of the Stick together until you can reseal the Gates - and then after that you must train up a new generation of Gate sealers and repairers, who will train their successors, and so on throughout history". This would flash back to Roy's comment that what the Order needed was not a cleric; what they needed was ... Durkon.

As far as needing Durkon, it seems to some extent this has already happened: Only Durkon could defeat a vampire from within; only Durkon could be in this position to receive crucial information from Thor; only Durkon would be willing to go back to the Prime despite his reward waiting in Valhalla.

(I mean, I don't think this is the end of why the party needs Durkon, but I also think it's clear that some of the reasons he was especially needed have already happened.)


More importantly, hes malicious. He wants the two of them to be suffer for forever. He'll hang on to the gem to keep that up.

Right. This is something he cares about, so he's not going to screw it up. Folks who read Start of Darkness should know that Xykon pays attention when it matters.


...am I the only one a little grossed out that Soda seems to have hair on its straw? Maybe it's just the accordion of the bendy portion but now I can't unsee it...

He's also got five o'clock shadow.

[facw]

Yet, he still had the Cloister headband...

Yep, we don't know what happened to the gem, but it's clear that Xykon didn't keep all his valuables on him, so if it is important for the plot, it can definitely return.

That said, obviously we aren't going to revive two epic-level casters, as it would make the order a bit obsolete in the story (they both lost to Xykon individually, but it seems pretty likely they'd wipe the floor with him together.) Even if we just call on them for knowledge about rebuilding the gates, it's clear that that's just a temporary solution, and I think we are going to see the order do better than kicking the can down the road another 50-100 years.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Seeing Soda get revenge on Pizza filled a hole in my soul that I didn't realize existed all these years.

[rbetieh]

Well, he can't be from the movie snack world because it was destroyed by the Snarl. In fact, since the Gods only seem to create one world at a time, for some reason one of the Gods must have decided that a sentient fruit pie fit in with the stick figure theme and included it for their own reasons... :smallwink:

Wait, if it was one of the worlds they saved, then there would be sentient snacks in the afterlife...

[CantigThimble]

I mean, I'm sure you're not going to like this answer either, but:

Your assumption is that this has happened before and not been a big deal. Given that the characters in the story in the position to know best think it is a big deal, maybe your assumption is wrong?

Jesus Christ dude, condescend much? Seriously, I am actually capable of rational thought, please treat me as such.

If they've made an absurd number of even remotely similar worlds before then it is a logical assumption that similar situations would have cropped up in the past. If they haven't, then there must either be a reason for that or it's a plot hole. If there's a good reason then I'll wait for it, but I'm not just going to assume that Rich is infallible.

To be clear, I'm not attacking the story or Rich, I'm just applying some healthy skepticism, like I do with literally everything else in my life.

[Necris Omega]

A Gate which can be created by mortals can, arguably, be repaired by mortals.

If 5 Rifts can be sealed by mortals, arguably, so can 6, 7, ..., N. Can the Snarl create Rifts faster than mortals can seal them?

It's possible that the Order of the Scribble's failure is a metaphor for the larger failure of the Gods that created the Snarl - had the Scribblers remained a cohesive unit, they would have been able to respond to threats to the various gates as a team rather than as individuals. Xykon might have had a problem taking on a whole party instead of Dorukan by himself - he might not have even tried.

Durkon's task might not be "defeat the Snarl". It may be "keep the Order of the Stick together until you can reseal the Gates - and then after that you must train up a new generation of Gate sealers and repairers, who will train their successors, and so on throughout history". This would flash back to Roy's comment that what the Order needed was not a cleric; what they needed was ... Durkon.

I think the bigger picture here is...

Gates are a thing. Sure, maybe not a permanent thing, but a thing. That particular fact introduces something that's never happened before, and that is, in whatever form you'd like to consider, a vulnerability.

Something stopped the Snarl. Something frustrated it. Something nailed down reality so hard that, until those nails were removed, the Snarl stopped. Something made the Gods look like a bunch of chumps. Something to offer this world hope.

If the Gates were just "patches" and the Snarl could just try somewhere else, it would have. The original order wouldn't have been able to just stop at Five - other tears would have opened in the intervening time period and their whole guarding schtick wouldn't have been enough. But ignore the gates and the physicalities and limitations.

What this all says in the bigger picture is that this time the Gods created a world where the Snarl could be stopped. They created a world where, for whatever reason, this particular iteration resulted in a reality where the unfathomable divine squabble monster could actually be halted. Here, reality can be repaired. Here, the Snarl can be denied. If the Snarl can just be denied, it can, by that method, potentially be destroyed.

If it is a being like the Gods, then perhaps it holds to the same limitations as the gods. It needs fuel. It needs souls. It might just forcibly eat them, but the connection is still there. A god without Souls weakens, and if the Snarl is bidden to the same "metabolism" then starving it could potentially be a means by which the problem could be solved permanently. Chances are that the power to rip free from its prison isn't something it can just "do" - it needs to use up the powers it has. If it reaches a point where the question is, does try to break free or sustain its own existence on the dwindling resources it has, then the Snarl theoretically is something you could potentially defeat by just sealing it away long enough for it to starve.

[Bad Wolf]

Hilarious.

Fenrir and Dagon go for drinks together on week-ends.

I was thinking more Alduin and World-Eating.

[WindStruck]

Can anyone imagine Durkon yelling, "Speak to a representative! SPEAK TO A REPRESENTATIVE!"

[Ruck]

Jesus Christ dude, condescend much? Seriously, I am actually capable of rational thought, please treat me as such.

If they've made an absurd number of even remotely similar worlds before then it is a logical assumption that similar situations would have cropped up in the past. If they haven't, then there must either be a reason for that or it's a plot hole. If there's a good reason then I'll wait for it, but I'm not just going to assume that Rich is infallible.

To be clear, I'm not attacking the story or Rich, I'm just applying some healthy skepticism, like I do with literally everything else in my life.

I'm not trying to be condescending. I thought you wouldn't like the answer because you had already expressed you didn't like Rich's attitude in that thread.

As far as we know, this is the only world where any of the Gods have the kind of bet that Loki brokered between Hel and Thor-- where one god has default dominion over an entire species' souls in the afterlife-- which is really the only reason the crisis she is forcing is possible. While such a bet might have happened once in the past, it's just as easy to assume it hasn't.

[CantigThimble]

I'm not trying to be condescending. I thought you wouldn't like the answer because you had already expressed you didn't like Rich's attitude in that thread.

As far as we know, this is the only world where any of the Gods have the kind of bet that Loki brokered between Hel and Thor-- where one god has default dominion over an entire species' souls in the afterlife-- which is really the only reason the crisis she is forcing is possible. While such a bet might have happened once in the past, it's just as easy to assume it hasn't.

Besides that exact deal, I can think of many other ways in which one god would end up getting a bigger slice of the soul pie than the others, either at armageddon or earlier. And if the gods' influence is limited more by power than by rules and heriarchies (Hel claiming she'd be able to supercede Odin in control over the world) then I have difficulty believing that the pantheon structure would have lasted that long. (at least, not on the timescales we're talking about)

[Peelee]

Jesus Christ dude, condescend much? Seriously, I am actually capable of rational thought, please treat me as such.

Dude, that really didn't seem condescending at all. It read like a perfectly straightforward response, pointing out a potential flaw in your reasoning by bringing up a point about conjecture within a narrative, which is not something that everyone capable of rational thought inherently understands. Hell, I had to be taught that. I think you're overreacting pretty hard here.

[Riftwolf]

One things sticking out to me.

Thors yet to mention the Dead Eastern Pantheon.

While it seems a weird thing for the Southern Pantheon (via Sapphire Guard lore, via Shojo) to make up (it's not really a lie with a big gain to it, other than making mortals believe the Snarl is a proven danger to the Gods), it feels like we haven't gotten the full story on the Dead Gods yet.

[Rrmcklin]

I feel like discussions on whether or not what Thor reveals is really a big, once-in-an-eternity deal or not, should wait until the actual reveal.

Although, even then it will be because that's what the story says it is. What's in question is a matter of personal satisfaction, but it still strikes me as too soon to skeptical about that either.

[CantigThimble]

Dude, that really didn't seem condescending at all. It read like a perfectly straightforward response, pointing out a potential flaw in your reasoning by bringing up a point about conjecture within a narrative, which is not something that everyone capable of rational thought inherently understands. Hell, I had to be taught that. I think you're overreacting pretty hard here.

Perhaps I am overreacting. I am mostly just annoyed that the response to my critique of Rich's perspective in that exact thread was to quote his main point from that thread as if I hadn't considered it in the slightest.

[Draconi Redfir]

*snip*

I'm liking the thought process behind all of this ^

[Ironsmith]

I had made a guess like 6 years ago that the Order of the Stick will end up destroying all the gates and fighting the Snarl, because of that one throwaway line that said humans might be more able than Gods to hurt it.

I think that possibility is back on the tavle, and Thor is maybe about to recommend it.

Not that I don't think "killing the god-killing abomination" is an excellent conclusion to the problem of it being there, but it does strike me as being far outside the realm of possibility. The basic stat breakdown alone is intimidating... 3.5 deities aren't just Epic, they're the most Epic of Epics, being 20 HD outsiders with anywhere from 30 to 50 additional character levels (for a total of 50-70 hit dice) each of which are also maximized, plus the appropriate bonuses for having an absurdly high Constitution score (minimum 24 for +7 per hit dice). So for a low-rank deity with a d4 HD class, that comes out to a minimum of (8*20)+(30*4)+(7*50) = 630 hit points, which is a lot for a not-even epic character to widdle through.

And the Snarl just walked into a "room" full of these guys and their epic-even-by-their-standards counterparts, and proceeded to kill them all before they could properly react.

Forget it, Roy and company aren't taking that monster down.

[Rrmcklin]

One things sticking out to me.

Thors yet to mention the Dead Eastern Pantheon.

While it seems a weird thing for the Southern Pantheon (via Sapphire Guard lore, via Shojo) to make up (it's not really a lie with a big gain to it, other than making mortals believe the Snarl is a proven danger to the Gods), it feels like we haven't gotten the full story on the Dead Gods yet.

Why is that weird? Thor can easily, and correctly, be assuming that Durkon already knows what happened to them. That the Snarl is a threat to the Gods themselves can be assumed to be one of the first details a person is told about it.

[Kish]

While I think it's valid to look at a completed story and say, "I fundamentally disagree with one of the writer's premises, thus I do not believe this works," I think it's quite different to look at a story in progress and say, "Based on an assumption I have just made but cannot really support, I think this story doesn't work."

Assuming, in direct contradiction to the author's word, that surely one god has previously gotten a share of souls from the destruction of a world as lopsided as the one here would be without becoming the head of a pantheon, falls in the latter category.