Optimization Game-Warper's Optimization Challenge #1: E6 Flawed Commoner [Archive]

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daremetoidareyo

2018-09-12, 03:55 PM

Hello, welcome to the the

Game-Warper's Optimization Challenge!

Round 1: E6 Flawed Commoner

In this round, you will build a commoner for an E6 game. Don't worry, it won't be so bad! You can have a flaw chosen at your first Hit Die! The flaw must be chosen from either Unearthed Arcana or from Dragon Magazine #330. As is typical of flaws, you get a bonus feat for choosing this flaw. IF YOU TAKE THE COMMONER FLAWS FROM DRAGON MAGAZINE #330 P.87, YOUR FIRST CLASS LEVEL MUST BE COMMONER

Allowable Sources: Same as the Iron Chef E6 appetizer edition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23274115&postcount=1) with one difference. You can use any allowable content from dragon magazine #330 so long as it conforms to the other submission guidelines set forth in the Iron Chef E6 Competition: e.g. LA 0 races and templates, 10 epic feats, no taint subsystems, no leadership, etc.

Rules: We will follow all of the entry rules and requirements of the Iron Chef E6 Appetizer Edition for this contest except Judging and that you are limited to a single entry.

PAY ATTENTION THIS IS WAY DIFFERENT THAN NORMAL:

Judging: By Entering an entrant into this contest, you agree to become a judge. That's right. This is pay to play. Judging works like this:

1. Once all of the submissions are made to the chair: ME (daremetoidareyo) at the end of the challenge period, they will be posted to the forum by the chair.

2. Entrants will read all of the entries and score the other builds by the following metrics:

If there are two entries: Builds will be rated on a scale from 0 to 9 in the following 4 categories: Originality, Power, Elegance, and Use of the ingredient. Each category will need at least two sentences justifying the score granted. The submitter only judges the other contestant's build.

If there are 3-6 entries: Builds will be rated on a scale from 0 to 9 in the following 4 categories: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of the ingredient. Each category will need at least one sentence justifying the score granted. The submitter only judges the other contestant's builds, not their own. If a submitter fails to provide a judgement to every other entrant, all of the scores received for their build rendered by other entrants are treated as zeros. If you want to win, you have to judge. Highest scores get medals.

If there are 7 or more entries: Builds will be rated on a scale from 0 to 9 in the following 4 categories: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of the ingredient.

There must be at least one sentence justifying your Elegance score.
There must be one sentence that begins with "What i liked most about this entry was....."
And there must be one sentence that must begin with "An area of this build that needed more attention was...."

The submitter only judges the other contestant's builds, not their own. If a submitter fails to provide a judgement to every other entrant, all of the scores received for their build rendered by other entrants are treated as zeros. If you want to win, you have to judge. Highest scores get medals.

OVERALL Simply use the established definitions of the rating categories (originality, power , elegance, UoSI) from the E6 appetizer edition Iron Chef.

SPECIAL NOTE: Entries will not be negatively judged for using 1 flaw from the allowed sources. Judges may penalize elegance for taking a second allotted flaw, so use them at your own risk.
3. These judgments are PMed to the chair, You can send google doc links or similar formats so long as i don't have to sign up for anything, and I will cut and paste the judgments into the thread.

4. We tally up and determine the winner There is no dispute process, so these scores will wildly fluctuate and some contestants will potentially have to manage feelings of injustice on their own. If someone actively works to game this judging system we will edit it in the future to preclude optimization that hurts the spirit of the contest.

DEADLINE For Entry: OCTOBER 1st Midnight, Eastern Standard Time in the USA.

DeTess

2018-09-12, 03:59 PM

Not sure if I will have time to build, but I'm very curious how your judging system will work. If it works out, it'd definitely help with the long judging times on the other competitions.

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-12, 04:06 PM

Edit: Post #2: Post #3 I'm slow yo.

I will make announcements here.

1.) I am well aware that opening all of Dragon #330 will open up some new feats, races, and class options beyond the flaws available to commoners. Use them if you want to. I suggest not entering if you do not have access to dragon #330 because you will tasked with judging and not having reliable access to the rules for potential builds is problematic in judge qualification.

2.) Not all Game Warper's Optimization Challenges will be based on E6 Iron Chef Rules. They will all be judged in this round robin style, however. For example, The next challenge may be "I make my party stealthy" where the optimization will be 12 levels of making a party of 5 as undetectable as possible or it might be "15 levels of your conjuration summon spells are treated calling spells, greenbound summoning is banned" or it might be "Generic Classes from UA gestalt" or it might be "The ultimate familiar"

RaiKirah

2018-09-12, 04:21 PM

I am very excited to build and judge for this :D

Very curious to see how the judging works out.

Thanks for putting this together!

Zaq

2018-09-12, 04:37 PM

I am unlikely to be able to contribute to this round, but I approve of this contest and I want it to succeed.

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-12, 05:49 PM

I forgot to mention: only one entry per person. We don't want to put too big a thumb on the judge's scale. I updated the top post.

lylsyly

2018-09-12, 06:17 PM

Not saying I'm in but wouldn't it be unfair to peeps w/o drag 330?

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-12, 06:23 PM

RaiKirah

2018-09-12, 06:33 PM

Optimizers uhh hmmmm ...find a way.

Can confirm :P

WhamBamSam

2018-09-12, 07:36 PM

Interesting. I'll definitely try to get a build in.

PrismCat21

2018-09-13, 03:13 AM

Not saying I'm in but wouldn't it be unfair to peeps w/o drag 330?It's legal 3.5 content by RAW, so dragmag being banned in all comps is convenient but doesn't need to be the standard. We allow like a hundred sourcebooks for the competitions, and we don't have the same amount of hand wrangling about access for the judges. Optimizers uhh hmmmm ...find a way.

What exactly do you mean by "It's legal 3.5 content by RAW"?
RAW means 'Rules As Written'. Referring to what a rule 'technically' says in the sourcebook vs what it is 'meant' to say, the intention of the rule.
Is there an official sourcebook somewhere that claims Dragon Magazine as official material?

What do you even mean by 'legal'?
If you're referring to being able to use it in 'your' competition, then 'you' can make absolutely anything you want 'legal'.

The reason why all official sourcebooks are allowed in the other competitions, is because they are 'official' 1st party material. WotC owns Dungeons and Dragons, WotC published those sourcebooks, those sourcebooks clearly state they are official content. That is what makes them '1st party material'.
Dragon Magazine 330 was published by Paizo. At best, it would be considered 2nd party material. And as far as I'm aware, WotC has never commented on whether or not Dragon Magazine should be considered official content.
Dragon Magazine, under Paizo, self-claims to be, with no word from WotC either way.

"Dragmag" being banned in the other comps is the standard, whether or not you like it. This comp is the exception to the rule. The exception cannot exist without the standard.

It would be best if you clearly stated 'all' rules/guidelines for this competition, instead of referencing Iron Chef E6, which itself references the other Iron Chef.
It'll make them more clear and easily understood.

WhamBamSam

2018-09-13, 08:59 AM

thethird

2018-09-13, 09:19 AM

My UNI used a similar system to grade some projects, please remember that people are sometimes just... people and disallow giving the minimal score to everyone else (or other stupid judging).

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-13, 09:41 AM

Can we get a ruling of what "harmless" means for the Weresheep flaw? Does it mean that the hybrid and animal forms can't do anything, or just that they don't offer any stat improvements or special attacks?

gimme a few minutes...

weresheep is found on page 87 of the dragmag. Man that took a long time to find.

Is there a sheep statblock anywhere?

I'm guessing not, but i think that there might be a deer statblock in a faerun book. Found it...silver marches. let's go check it out. it's on page 119. ewww. 2HD?

Ok. Use the badger stat block (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/badger.htm) as the sheep. Just Remove the natural attacks, rage, the burrow speed, the bonus to escape artist checks, and bonus feats. sheep have no natural attack routine. Sheep have hooves so they can't burrow.

as far as the lycanthropy goes, let's say that you are an afflicted lycanthrope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm)

For the purpose of this contest, the weresheep flaw adds its HD to you and you get the +2 LA for being an afflicted provatothrope. If you can manage that with your 3 class levels before you get to epic feats, go right ahead.

This is an explicit exemption to the "Must be an LA 0 race rule"

Treat your animal HD as your Second HD after your 1st level of commoner.

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-13, 09:44 AM

I just added this to the top post:

IF YOU TAKE THE COMMONER FLAWS FROM DRAGON MAGAZINE #330 P.87, YOUR FIRST CLASS LEVEL MUST BE COMMONER! It stipulates this in Dragon #330.

WhamBamSam

2018-09-13, 10:01 AM

gimme a few minutes...

weresheep is found on page 87 of the dragmag. Man that took a long time to find.

Is there a sheep statblock anywhere?

I'm guessing not, but i think that there might be a deer statblock in a faerun book. Found it...silver marches. let's go check it out. it's on page 119. ewww. 2HD?

Ok. Use the badger stat block (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/badger.htm) as the sheep. Just Remove the natural attacks, rage, the burrow speed, the bonus to escape artist checks, and bonus feats. sheep have no natural attack routine. Sheep have hooves so they can't burrow.

as far as the lycanthropy goes, let's say that you are an afflicted lycanthrope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm)

For the purpose of this contest, the weresheep flaw adds its HD to you and you get the +2 LA for being an afflicted provatothrope. If you can manage that with your 3 class levels before you get to epic feats, go right ahead.

This is an explicit exemption to the "Must be an LA 0 race rule"

Treat your animal HD as your Second HD after your 1st level of commoner.Oof. That's a pretty brutal ruling. My reading was that it just makes you technically a lycanthrope without HD or LA (sort of like Dread Necromancer Lichdom), but also without pretty much any of the things one might want from lycanthopy, like stat bonuses or special attacks. Ah well. Back to the drawing board.

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-13, 10:02 AM

What exactly do you mean by "It's legal 3.5 content by RAW"?
RAW means 'Rules As Written'. Referring to what a rule 'technically' says in the sourcebook vs what it is 'meant' to say, the intention of the rule.
Is there an official sourcebook somewhere that claims Dragon Magazine as official material?

What do you even mean by 'legal'?
If you're referring to being able to use it in 'your' competition, then 'you' can make absolutely anything you want 'legal'.

The reason why all official sourcebooks are allowed in the other competitions, is because they are 'official' 1st party material. WotC owns Dungeons and Dragons, WotC published those sourcebooks, those sourcebooks clearly state they are official content. That is what makes them '1st party material'.
Dragon Magazine 330 was published by Paizo. At best, it would be considered 2nd party material. And as far as I'm aware, WotC has never commented on whether or not Dragon Magazine should be considered official content.
Dragon Magazine, under Paizo, self-claims to be, with no word from WotC either way.

"Dragmag" being banned in the other comps is the standard, whether or not you like it. This comp is the exception to the rule. The exception cannot exist without the standard.

It would be best if you clearly stated 'all' rules/guidelines for this competition, instead of referencing Iron Chef E6, which itself references the other Iron Chef.
It'll make them more clear and easily understood.

I read this as combative, so please forgive any defensiveness you may detect, emotions are tricky via text prompts. I think this is the reason that I took this as aggressive rather than all helpful

"Dragmag" being banned in the other comps is the standard, whether or not you like it.

You purport to know my opinions, and you didn't get them correct, at least not wholly or with any nuance, which is frustrating in its own right. And my state of mind about dragmag admissibility doesn't even actually matter at all to the matter at hand. But then again, maybe im just sensitive to criticism in general and you were just being helpful.

Drag mag is official, it's just not first-party. It's made by Paizo Publishing, but given permission to be DnD by WoTC (thus why they have the DnD logo on them, and bear the 'Official Wizards of the Coast licensed product' on them.) Dragmag is banned in other contests for a myriad of reasons, and even then the OA update in 318 is allowed and we've recently discovered that dragmag #330 content is referred to for use in secrets of xendric. It's in this weird liminal area, at least a little.

Limiting ourselves to first party is more tradition than necessity, so let's tentatively explore some of this stuff.

I'll maybe eventually cut and past the e6 rules over, but it's more work than I want it to be, and thus may get entirely sidelined and the work shunted onto the entrants. I've already signed up for chairperson + judge consolidation work with this thread, so duplicating content just seems like extra drudgery with no overt gains to my experience here. From my position, opening the extra tab if you want in isn't all that bad, especially if you're already crawling through 16 sourcebooks and the online content anyway to make an entry.

If you want to copy and paste that stuff into the thread to help possible contestants, feel free to, I would really appreciate it.

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-13, 10:25 AM

Oof. That's a pretty brutal ruling. My reading was that it just makes you technically a lycanthrope without HD or LA (sort of like Dread Necromancer Lichdom), but also without pretty much any of the things one might want from lycanthopy, like stat bonuses or special attacks. Ah well. Back to the drawing board.

I don't know:

you get DR 5/silver, scent, iron will feat, the agile feat, +2 nat armor bonus (+3 in hybrid or animal form), +2 wisdom, alternate form, and a DC 15 curse of lycanthropy if you can find a way to get a natural attack. All at the cost of getting a bonus feat and locking down 4 class levels. AAAnd you get to be delicious while in alternate forms, which means you can turn that on and off, which means you can optimize it...theoretically, (i haven't ever tried).

I'll admit that it's ugly and not great.

-----------------------

Let's allow the possibility to buy off one of the LA levels at level six, thereby granting one more class level and reducing your total epic feats to a total of 9.

Does anyone who is thinking of entering strongly oppose this exemption to the exemption to the rules?

You're likely to be judging, so you know, maybe you don't want to the mental gymnastics of accurately comparing the level 6 power levels, or maybe you don't care and you want to see what happens.

PM me if you strong feelings of disallowing the LA buyoff of the weresheep flaw, so that way we retain anonymity.

WhamBamSam

2018-09-13, 10:34 AM

Well, no Curse of Lycanthropy, since the Weresheep is explicitly afflicted, but point taken.

RaiKirah

2018-09-13, 12:11 PM

I'm curious to see what folks can make from the exemption inception, so I say let it ride. I've got an idea I'm really enjoying, but I've also got a number of ideas that make me chuckle that require more than 6 levels - looking forward to post reveal discussions already!

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-13, 12:25 PM

Ok. I just cleaned 97 messages out of my inbox.

IF you are entering and would rather that LA buy off for weresheep not be allowed, please PM me by 11:59 PM US Eastern standard time on september 19th. If there are no protest messages, we will allow the LA buyoff of a single level of the weresheep flaw lycanthropy at no judging penalty.

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-14, 08:28 AM

Does extending the build time by a week or so allow for more participants?

Ripptor

2018-09-14, 08:31 AM

Does extending the build time by a week or so allow for more participants?

I don't think I'll need it, but I wouldn't mind either! Mostly posting so you know I'm brewing :smallsmile:

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-14, 07:44 PM

I don't think I'll need it, but I wouldn't mind either! Mostly posting so you know I'm brewing :smallsmile:

Sweet. The bare minimum.

jdizzlean

2018-09-16, 07:05 AM

i will look into this more tonight at work when it slows down. I have to finish my JYW's build first, but afterwards should be able to get one in for this, i don't currently anticipate a need for an extension, if it comes to needing one, I'll let you know.

RaiKirah

2018-09-16, 08:11 AM

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-17, 12:18 PM

While we're following directions and actually responding to the chair's question I'll chime in and say that I also do not anticipate needing and extension. I have two and change builds I'm working on and thoroughly enjoying. It's going to be hard choosing!

Alright, we'll reassess around the due date, and if someone just needs a few more days (say less than 5) we'll extend then, if necessary.

Bronk

2018-09-18, 12:50 PM

Alright, we'll reassess around the due date, and if someone just needs a few more days (say less than 5) we'll extend then, if necessary.

I'm not sure if I'm going to participate, but if I did, it would be my first time. Looking at your link in the OP, it doesn't have any information about gear or starting gold, but some of the finished Iron Chef submissions do have that. How does that work? Is it just a wish list?

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-18, 01:01 PM

I'm not sure if I'm going to participate, but if I did, it would be my first time. Looking at your link in the OP, it doesn't have any information about gear or starting gold, but some of the finished Iron Chef submissions do have that. How does that work? Is it just a wish list?

You can assume to have normal WBL, especially as far as mundane gear is concerned, but I would not build around an assumption of guaranteed access to any given magic item, because judges don't take kindly to that in other competitions, and it's a likely trend that will be maintained, mostly by inertia, and partly because over reliance on item availability changes the competition's focus on class feature/feat/spell/power interplay.

You can absolutely make a wishlist. You can even build around an item that you can afford if you want to, but you are likely to be docked points for it by other judges unless you are capable of making said magic item all by yourself. If you go way above WBL, you are probably gonna lose points. But maybe not, the other competitors are judging, so if you charm them, maybe you can squeak by.

Also, welcome to the competition! I look forward to your entry!

RaiKirah

2018-09-18, 01:29 PM

jdizzlean

2018-09-18, 08:59 PM

i sometimes include equipment options in the misguided belief that somewhere down the road someone might read my build and want to play it. the equipment options give them some forward knowledge of things to be on the lookout for.

i never build w/ an equipment RELIANCE however, and when I judge ding pretty heavily for that as well, what happens if your 1 item gets broken/stolen/sundered/disarmed etc etc, then your whole build becomes moot.

all of this is compounded the more exotic and specialized your equipment choice is as well.

but generally speaking, equipment/arms/armor is usually not something included in builds as that's a fairly personal decision for any PC anyways.

WhamBamSam

2018-09-18, 10:50 PM

Generally it's better to steer clear of item reliance, but I have done an IC build that made heavy use of Slippers of Battledancing in the past. It didn't really have the ability to craft them beyond dipping into its deepest well of cheese. I justified it based on the Slippers being notoriously problematic to optimize. I also feel that I was too invested in trying to self-craft the necessary items to make my idea work in another round, and ended up not submitting because of it.

I would say if there's an unusual or unique item that makes a build that you really like possible, then go for it, but with the understanding that judges may mark you down for it.

Unrelated rules question: What constitutes a monster for the purpose of the Delicious flaw? I think the RAI is probably more colloquial, but RAW it seems like it makes your allies see you as a cartoon turkey dinner and attack you as well.

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-19, 01:22 AM

Unrelated rules question: What constitutes a monster for the purpose of the Delicious flaw? I think the RAI is probably more colloquial, but RAW it seems like it makes your allies see you as a cartoon turkey dinner and attack you as well.

That is a great question!

All monsters attack you if able, regardless of their attitude toward the rest of your party.

From that, I gather that your party is exempt, but enchantments to get any party members of the types considered monsters below to turn on you impose a -2 penalty to their save. The parties pets (familiars, AC, mounts) count as party members.

The choice of the word monster is definitely colloquial. So, I'm gonna make a pitch here, and yall tell me what ya think.

Monsters for the purpose of this flaw are

Carnivorous Animals of your size or larger are monsters.

Swarms are monsters.

Aberrations, carnivorous vermin, and carnivorous/omnivorous monstrous humanoids, and oozes are monsters.

Corporeal undead that eat or bite are monsters.

Evil outsiders and diametrically opposed in alignment neutral outsiders (if your alignment is LG, CN outsiders will be chomping at ya) are monsters if they have the capacity to eat your flesh.

Dragons that eat creatures of your subtype are monsters.

Elementals with the capacity to digest food are monsters.

Evil fey and neutral fey that eat creatures of your type are monsters. Good fey that eat creatures of your type are monsters.

Carnivorous magical beasts and carnivorous plants are monsters.

Humanoids with the reptilian or goblinoid subtype are monsters.

Giants that eat sentient creatures of your type are monsters.

Constructs that eat or use fleshy bits are monsters (e.g. cadaver golems)

Generally, If they can't digest you or gain pleasure from consuming you, they aren't monsters.

Good outsiders aren't monsters. You may not treat yourself as a monster. Demi-humans aren't monsters unless they are individuals who are unabashed cannibals with poor impulse control.

Non-corporeal creatures are not monsters unless they have a means of eating corporeal flesh.

There will obviously be some exceptions in that broad categorization. But that list seems like it covers most things.

Please point out disagreements with the categories rather than fishing for weird edge-cases. (e.g. bite soulmeld specter covered in ectoplasm)

RaiKirah

2018-09-19, 11:46 AM

Gah, I really want this to be E7 for one of my builds; then I can do everything I want :(

Right now I'm agonizing over choosing one direction over another based on not being able to fit both in the build because I can't get enough class features...those Commoner levels are really useless :p

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-19, 12:07 PM

Zaq

2018-09-20, 12:15 AM

The soulknife did this to me.

I REGRET NOTHING. I'd do it again.

Hell, I'm gonna do it again. You just wait for some of the ingredients I've got waiting.

jdizzlean

2018-09-20, 12:23 AM

You just wait for some of the ingredients I've got waiting.

I invite you to enter the next few rounds of VC for the exact same reason....

jdizzlean

2018-09-20, 07:26 AM

I am completely done w/ my build with the exception of a single feat, no extension needed by me.

lylsyly

2018-09-20, 11:12 AM

I REGRET NOTHING. I'd do it again.

Hell, I'm gonna do it again. You just wait for some of the ingredients I've got waiting.

Evil man, just EVIL ;)

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-20, 07:55 PM

I'm really glad that we have a decent participation turn out.

Edit:

Also, I've been trying to compose what the next challenge will be, and here is the short list.

Key:
1-20: basically iron chef rules with 20 level build
Flawed: 1 flaw is allowed
BeFlawed: 2 flaws are allowed

Ideas
1: Generic Classes from UA (E6? or 1-20 with a theme to help focus the builds?)

2: Flawed Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons 1-20 Kinda speaks for itself. Let's see what happens when we're confident that it is allowed.

3: BeFlawed E6 Pokemon Pet Battle!: Where we will be judging the stats of the animal companion, familiar, mount, or wild cohort, or similar pet, Probably not symbiont - The character's sole purpose is to bring the pet into the arena and once there they are treated as an invulnerable and incorporeal non-targetable-in-any-way entity. You all have the same backstory: professor oak gave you this creature, and you are now a traveling exhibition battler of this creature, and this creature loves this entire situation. We will define the arena dimensions together somehow to try to make it most fair. Maybe the Power score is judged like a mandatory ranked choice, Where the most powerful gets a number of points equal to number of contestants (n) -1 (you can't judge yourself), and the second most powerful gets n points -2 (because you weren't the strongest most capable arena battler), and so on all the way down to 1 point. And we'll just have to figure out how to get balance the elegance scores with that and disincentivizing tanking all of the elegance scores as a judge metagaming decision.

4: DragonMarks! 1-20? E6? Include aberrant ones? BeFlawed?

5: Dragon Magazine issue #XXX is allowed and maybe a theme or contest restriction. Open to suggestions.

6: BeFlawed 1st level challenge: Make the most money in one month. Starting Gold = 300.

Zaq

2018-09-21, 01:07 AM

I have like a 1% chance of having the time necessary to enter, but of the ones you just posted, 3, 4, and 6 intrigue me the most.

Ripptor

2018-09-21, 08:11 AM

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-21, 09:29 AM

I won't have the time to build+judge multiple level 20 builds, so I'll probably just stick to the E6 and lover challenges that catch my eye. That said, Generic/Kobold/Pokemon all sound fun!

Also, a good way to avoid issues in self-judging may be a forced ranked-choice point system:

Each judge assigns points per category, as usual.
At the end, they list the builds in combined score order, breaking any ties they may have.
Last place is 1 point, with an additional 1 (or 2) points per advancement, giving first place n-1 (or 2n-1) points.
This gives each judge the same amount of points to distribute, no more and no less.
Judges can each use their own scoring scale, so a harsh scale/curve doesn't penalize other submissions.
AKA: Judges gain no personal benefit from being over-critical, and lose nothing from offering high praise.

Hopefully we can all give & get good feedback, without having to worry about the scores while judging :smallsmile:

Okay. Your post gave my brain ADHD overload. I'll try to sort it all out orderly Style.

1. That is 2 votes for Pokemon pet battle. Great! We just need to make a bunch of rules, like if your character is a marshall, I would like for your auras to work on your familiar, but I hesitate to allow bards or spell casters to offer Inspire courage or spells. Maybe there is a one-round pre buff? But then I have to worry about magic items coming in the play. Ugh. I reckon I'll just make a pet battle rules thread, and we will as a forum figure this out.

2. I like your ranked-choice idea. It is good. But for Pokemon pet Battle, originality is kind of unnecessary because there is no backstory, and the elegance category can cover game-mechanical cleverness. And use of SI seems like a silly category for a competition of direct arena combat power.

3. I think doing 20 Level builds will have a cooling effect on participation because of the difficulty of pouring through the sources. Then again, the late game the offers some really neat things that simply aren't available early game.

4. I worry that the feedback will be unsatisfactory for the participants because of the limited nature of the minimum requirements. But it has to be counterbalanced with judging effort.

5. Did anyone consider using Unearthed Arcana flaws?

6. Zaq, you mentioned interest in the dragon marks round. Do you think E6, E8, or 1 through 20 is the way to go? Are any restrictions appropriate?

7. Everyone, there is a lot of interest in the generic classes, but the problem with a competition using those is that the build requirements would be unfocused. How do we structure that competition? I would love to hear suggestions on how to get people optimizing towards a broad goal which then can be cross compared. To be honest, I fear this becoming a Caster versus caster competition.

RaiKirah

2018-09-21, 09:33 AM

I'm most interested in options 3 and 4, if only because the other options will require significant research as I haven't really messed around with those categories before. Sounds like fun!

Lapak

2018-09-21, 09:38 AM

7. Everyone, there is a lot of interest in the generic classes, but the problem with a competition using those is that the build requirements would be unfocused. How do we structure that competition? I would love to hear suggestions on how to get people optimizing towards a broad goal which then can be cross compared. To be honest, I fear this becoming a Caster versus caster competition.To focus this, I would give people a literal goal or a problem to solve with their build. 'Build a character who needs to defend a city that will come under siege a week from now,' 'build a detective who solves murders in a fantasy city,' etc.

Ripptor

2018-09-21, 10:07 AM

To focus this, I would give people a literal goal or a problem to solve with their build. 'Build a character who needs to defend a city that will come under siege a week from now,' 'build a detective who solves murders in a fantasy city,' etc.

Oh, I like this one! Like, give us a one-off campaign goal...

Your job is to track down and subdue/eliminate a secret cult of necromancer's in a large city. Encounters will most likely contain multiples of undead minions, and High ranking members may even be undead themselves, disguised as living via mundane and/or magical means. By default, you have no special license to arrest/kill, so you will need to either be a secret vigilante or find some powerful backing to do broad daylight work, or even carry weapons in sensitive areas. Good luck!

WhamBamSam

2018-09-22, 05:31 PM

2: Flawed Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons 1-20 Kinda speaks for itself. Let's see what happens when we're confident that it is allowed.Yes. This one. Ban Loredrake and the standard Wyrm of War though, because they're boring.

5: Dragon Magazine issue #XXX is allowed and maybe a theme or contest restriction. Open to suggestions.Sounds fun. I like a lot of the dragon stuff from various dragon magazines (maybe a VC-style Dragon Mag Dragons round). E6 Martial Monks would be a blast.

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-23, 08:25 PM

I have received the first entry! There is definitely be at least one gold medalist!

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-24, 08:51 PM

We're up to two entries!

RaiKirah

2018-09-24, 09:04 PM

Working on a third and fully intend to get it in!

Ripptor

2018-09-25, 07:34 AM

I assume we can still post up to the Deadline, unless everyone completes and/or drops before then?
I'm juggling :smallsmile:

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-25, 07:47 AM

I assume we can still post up to the Deadline, unless everyone completes and/or drops before then?
I'm juggling :smallsmile:

Im not entirely sure as to what you are asking. So I'll try to address every interpretation.

You can enter right up to the deadline by private messaging me your entry.

You can post non-speculative conversation pieces right into the thread.

I suspect that no one is dropping out, so we have a quorum to continue.

I'll post the reveal within 24 hours of the deadline passing.

Then, entrants will have 15 days to judge all other entries and private message me their judgements. Please observe the minimums. Please don't optimize your sentences into a single word. You can send me a Google doc link or a Dropbox link if you get really wordy in your judgments.

The deadline for judging isn't fixed. If everyone submits their judgments early, the contest ends early. If you need more time, let's say up to 5 more days, just ask in the thread.

And then I post those, we tally points, we have some Chit Chat, and the Champions get awarded medals.

Ripptor

2018-09-25, 07:51 PM

I just don't want to miss the train by waiting to polish off the build for a few more days, when work is less... work :smallannoyed: Just don't move to Judging without me!

I won't have the time to build+judge multiple level 20 builds, so I'll probably just stick to the E6 and lover challenges that catch my eye. That said, Generic/Kobold/Pokemon all sound fun!

Also, a good way to avoid issues in self-judging may be a forced ranked-choice point system:

Each judge assigns points per category, as usual.
At the end, they list the builds in combined score order, breaking any ties they may have.
Last place is 1 point, with an additional 1 (or 2) points per advancement, giving first place n-1 (or 2n-1) points.
This gives each judge the same amount of points to distribute, no more and no less.
Judges can each use their own scoring scale, so a harsh scale/curve doesn't penalize other submissions.
AKA: Judges gain no personal benefit from being over-critical, and lose nothing from offering high praise.

Hopefully we can all give & get good feedback, without having to worry about the scores while judging :smallsmile:

Also, I think I might have been confusing with this suggestion, I was suggesting it for judging this round. That way, we can better avoid judge-meta-gaming the system. However, this will only be the second time I'm judging builds, so... just my 2c :smallsmile:

jdizzlean

2018-09-25, 08:27 PM

for future rounds, i'm more in favor of doing things like this one that wouldn't be included in the other existing competitions.

i am a big fan of making everyone that enters a judge however :)

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-26, 09:12 AM

Ripptor:

Looking at your ranked choice idea, it looks pretty good. For this competition though, we are going to continue with the experiment of direct score comparisons. At the outset we didn't pitch the ranked choice idea, and i don't want to switch horses at this point.

Just don't think about how to break the system. Stop. I know you're considering how to do it right now. Quick! distract yourself! Just judge the competing entries as you would like your own to be judged. Do me a favor in these highly polarized times and approach this endeavor with integrity, please.

That all said, I really like the system that you pitched, although i would like to compose the instructions on how it works more directly and simply. If anyone wants to volunteer to do the heavy lifting on that by writing a rough draft of the instructions on how it works, I would totally appreciate it. If no-one does, I'll eventually knock it out. Right after i correct the moon calf on that other thread.

Jdizzlean:

The entire premise for game warpers comp is to delve into those nooks and crannies that the main comps on the board cannot/will not address. Also, moving the optimization around through some of the sub systems and typically disallowed official content seems like it will be stimulating.

Everybody:

other ideas:

7: E6 epic feats are literally epic feats. Ignore non-feat based prerequisites to epic feats after level 6.

8: I in Team: (e6? 1-20?) Build a character whose three adventuring companions will be exact duplicates of themselves, all the way down to feat selections and sub selections, spells known, spells prepared, skill ranks.

RaiKirah

2018-09-26, 10:18 AM

I would be interested in 1-20 I in Team, if only because I have a build already made that I would use for it :)

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-26, 12:39 PM

I would be interested in 1-20 I in Team, if only because I have a build already made that I would use for it :)

I think that the crowd favorite for contest #2 is dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons. Not sure if we're doing E6 or 1-20 though. input requested I'm thinking that we allow a flaw for that contest as well so that the dragonwrought feat is basically free at first level, which opens up the first level feat for whatever chaos the entrants want to attempt.

Someone suggested a ban on loredrake, which is logical seeing as how that ground has been tread on these boards for years now. But, i don't think that i have the guts to remove something so tantalizingly juicy. I think that what i will do instead is warn entrants that they need to do something cool with it or suffer the ennui of their fellow judges.

How are yalls builds coming along? We are up to 2 flawed commoner entries submitted, so the contest will be going on fine.

Ripptor

2018-09-26, 06:07 PM

I'm up for E6, 1-20 is too much time for me :smallsmile:

WhamBamSam

2018-09-26, 09:12 PM

I think that the crowd favorite for contest #2 is dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons. Not sure if we're doing E6 or 1-20 though. input requested I'm thinking that we allow a flaw for that contest as well so that the dragonwrought feat is basically free at first level, which opens up the first level feat for whatever chaos the entrants want to attempt.

Someone suggested a ban on loredrake, which is logical seeing as how that ground has been tread on these boards for years now. But, i don't think that i have the guts to remove something so tantalizingly juicy. I think that what i will do instead is warn entrants that they need to do something cool with it or suffer the ennui of their fellow judges.I say 1-20, because pretty much all the interesting True Dragon cheese I can think of (and I can think of a lot) won't work in E6. I'd especially favor 1-20 with Loredrake allowed, because at least then it only puts you ahead of the curve and doesn't let you reach a higher spell level than what would otherwise be the maximum.

I'd rather not allow a flaw, and keep that lost first level feat as the cost of Dragonwrought. That's also why I'd rather ban the standard Wyrm of War (at least in a 1-20 competition. In E6 Wyrm of War only gives a single feat, so whatever).

How are yalls builds coming along? We are up to 2 flawed commoner entries submitted, so the contest will be going on fine.I've got a stub. I'll try to write it up by the deadline.

RaiKirah

2018-09-26, 09:40 PM

How are yalls builds coming along? We are up to 2 flawed commoner entries submitted, so the contest will be going on fine.

Got my build together, now to write it up!

lylsyly

2018-09-27, 10:31 AM

Idea #8: I in Team. I would probably be in IF it is E6.

Bronk

2018-09-28, 06:58 AM

Everybody:

other ideas:

7: E6 epic feats are literally epic feats. Ignore non-feat based prerequisites to epic feats after level 6.

8: I in Team: (e6? 1-20?) Build a character whose three adventuring companions will be exact duplicates of themselves, all the way down to feat selections and sub selections, spells known, spells prepared, skill ranks.

I'd be interested in more E6... Maybe as high as E8? I had fun putting a build together, but it took forever with a lot of restarts, and putting into the Iron Chef format was rough too. A full 20 levels sounds intimidating!

I like the idea of using flaws too. It was definitely fun this time...

daremetoidareyo

2018-09-30, 07:46 PM

27 hours away folks.

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-01, 02:31 PM

3 entries in! less than 9 hours until the deadline.

Do we increase the number of entrants if we extend the deadline by a day or two?

WhamBamSam

2018-10-01, 02:44 PM

3 entries in! less than 9 hours until the deadline.

Do we increase the number of entrants if we extend the deadline by a day or two?I was planning on trying to finish my mess of a build tonight. I think I'll get in by the regular deadline though.

RaiKirah

2018-10-01, 05:48 PM

3 entries in! less than 9 hours until the deadline.

Do we increase the number of entrants if we extend the deadline by a day or two?

I'm just finishing up my Fluff, should have no problem hitting the deadline!

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-01, 07:27 PM

I'm just finishing up my Fluff, should have no problem hitting the deadline!

5 is good enough sample size for the experiment for me.

If I wind up crashing from exhaustion tonight and am unable to post the entries until tomorrow, you may submit your build in the interim hangtime if you feel possessed to do so. Just remember that you are also signing up to judge a number of builds.

This is exciting!

Also: y'all are weird.

RaiKirah

2018-10-01, 07:58 PM

I'm super excited to see what folks came up with!!

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-01, 11:31 PM

Alright, Pencils down. Time to post our entries. Please don't post until I give the word.

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-01, 11:36 PM

Contestant #1

Keelie Brightfeather, High Priestess of the Chicken God

Deep within the Astral Plane two vast, ineffable entities could be found conversing. Inexplicably, one of the two entities gives the impression of youth. Perhaps it’s that it seems not quite as vast as the other. Perhaps it’s that its energies are quicker, more effervescent. Or perhaps it’s the deep sense of curiosity that pervades the whole of the entity’s vast substance. Regardless of the how or the why, the entity is young in the way that water is wet, and fire hot: it simply is. The young entity’s presence moves and contorts in a manner to suggest a studiously nonchalant sidling up to the elder, followed by an expectant waiting. Amusement suffuses the Elder, and it queries:
Shall I build you a story, little one? Shall I tell you tales of kings and heroes? How Marko Lightbearer earned his name, bringing the people of the Deephold Vale through their Time of Trials? Or perhaps the story of Mara and the Three Kings, or the Thousand Tales of Anla the Wise Counselor? Shall I tell you of villains vile? How the Darkest arts of Kilean Blackfist brought down the Shining City of the Eternal Empire?
As the elder entity spoke the smaller one seemed to draw into itself, clearly unhappy with the stories offered it.
None of these? Hmmmm….Ah, I know! I shall tell you of the Maiden Keelie Brighthair, Beloved of All, who caught the Eye and Heart of the Prince of the Seven Kingdoms.
At this the young being’s essence brightens and it speaks.
Yes please!
Keelie was born in a small farming village in the far reaches of Erethia, least of the Seven Kingdoms. Born the only child of a poor farmer, Keelie grew up with very little, helping around the farm and doing odd-jobs to make ends meet. Despite the hardship she knew, Keelie was a happy child, and grew into a bright and beautiful young woman. One day a procession of horses and carriages came through the village, lacquer showing signs of wear, and people and faces covered all in dust from the road. A herald stepped forward and declaimed: “Step forward and pay obeisance to His Royal Highness Tobin Cavill, Crown Prince of the Seven Kingdoms.”
Keelie, curious to see the man who would one day be king, came out from her father’s house, hoping to arrive before the Prince’s procession left. In so doing she took the first step towards what would become a story of love to cross the ages.
Tobin stepped out of his carriage, plastering a smile to cover his boredom and annoyance. He’d been on procession for close to a year, touring the lands that would someday be his and being presented to the nobles whose fealty would transfer to him upon his ascension to the throne and he was tired, bored, and impatient. After this final stop in the backwaters of Erethia he could finally, finally, return home to the Capital. Tobin shook the hand of the village head and said some words he immediately forgot then turned to re-enter his carriage when his eye was drawn to a flash of gold behind the gathered villagers. He turned back and saw flash of gold had come from a young woman hurrying to the crowd, sun glinting off her exquisite flaxen—”
Feathers!!
…Feathers?
Keelie’s a chicken!
….a chicken?...ok. So, where was I? Ah yes, Tobin turned and saw a beautiful…chicken…strutting up to the crowd. He didn’t know what it was, but there was something fascinating about the chicken and he turned to the headman of the village and asked:
‘There is something compelling about this chicken. Tell me, what – or who – is this?’
‘Ah, yes, that is Keelie. There is quite a story there, for you see Keelie—‘”
Can breathe fire!!
…she can breathe fire?
Well yeah, she’s a chicken!
Chickens don’t…you know what, sure, why not? The headman continued: ‘Keelie can breathe fire. When she was very young Keelie was curs—‘
Blessed by a generous god to never be alone; wherever she went there would always be other chickens! Keelie had been lonely, and her sorrow caught my eye, and I, the generous god of Chickens, did ordain her to be High Priestess of my Flock!
…You are not going to be the God of Poultry!
When I grow up I’m going to be the God of Chickens!
No you’re not! Go to your Astral room!
….Waaaaahhh….

Stub
Alignment: Chaotic Awesome!
Race: Chicken --> Hengeyokai, Sparrow
Commoner 1/Dragonfire Adept 1/Bard 1/Druid 1/Monk 2
Flaws: Chicken Infested, Incomprehensible Accent

Ability Scores

Ability
Score
Racial
Lvl 4 Increase
Final Score

Strength
8
-
-
8

Dexterity
8
-
-
8

Constitution
12
-
+1
13

Intelligence
16
-
-
16

Wisdom
10
-2
-
8

Charisma
18
-
-
18

Build Progression

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
Commoner
+0
+0
+0
+0
Bluff 2(4cc), Disguise Self 2(4cc), Handle Animal 4, Perform(Wind) 2(4cc), Ride 4, Use Magic Device 2(4cc)
Surrogate Spellcasting, Nymph’s Kiss (F), Sacred Vow (F)
STICK PROFICIENCY (Club)

2nd
Dragonfire Adept
+0
+2
+0
+2
Bluff 4(2), Handle Animal 5(2cc), Ride 5(2cc), UMD 4(2), Disguise Self 2, Perform(Wind) 2
Dragontouched (b)
Breath Weapon (1d6), Dragontouched, Least Invocations (Beguiling Influence)

3rd
Bard
+0
+2
+2
+4
Disguise Self 5(3), Perform 5(3), Spellcraft 2, UMD 6(2), Bluff 4, Handle Animal 5, Ride 5
Entangling Exhalation
Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage (+1)

4th
Druid
+0
+4
+2
+6
Diplomacy 1, Handle Animal 7(2), Ride 6(1), Spellcraft 4(2), UMD 7(2cc), Bluff 3, Disguise Self 5, Perform 5
-
Urban Companion (Chicken) ACF, Nature Sense, Wild Empathy

5th
Undying Way Monk
+0
+6
+4
+8
Diplomacy 3(2), Handle Animal 8(2cc), Ride 7(2cc), UMD 8(2cc), Disguise Self 5, Bluff 3, Perform 5, Spellcraft 4
Toughness(b), Improved Unarmed Strike (b)
Bonus Feat (Toughness), Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike

6th
Undying Way Monk
+1
+7
+5
+9
Handle Animal 9(2cc), Perform 6(2cc), Ride 8(2cc), UMD 9(2cc), Disguise Self 5, Bluff 3, Diplomacy 3, Spellcraft 4
Animal Control (b), Shape Soulmeld (Beast Tamer Circlet)
Evasion, Bonus Feat (Animal Control)

Epic Feats:
1: Open Least Chakra (Crown)
(If you can get your hands on an Eternal Wand of Open Least Chakra swap this out for Shape Soulmeld (Mage Spectacles), since that gets you to auto-succeed on UMD)

2: Practiced Spellcaster (Druid)

3: Shape Soulmeld (Riding Bracers)

4: Bonus Essentia

5: Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Riding Bracers

6: Magical Beast Tamer

7: Extra Music

8: Dragonfire Inspiration

9: Song of the Heart

10: Words of Creation

Build Write-up
Full disclosure: Keelie is not in fact a chicken. This is due to the rather baffling fact that 3.5e doesn’t seem to actually have chickens. In a chicken themed build this is potentially troublesome. Luckily for us, the Devs in their wisdom give us a workaround. In the Raven entry in the Monster Manual there’s this wonderful little line: “The statistics presented here can describe most nonpredatory birds of similar size.” So for any chicken related shenanigans we’ll be referencing the Raven statblock. For Keelie herself, the closest I could come to legitimately being a chicken was the Sparrow Hengeyokai (OA, Dragon Magazine #318). Add in a little Disguise Self (and hopefully a Hat of Disguise) and you can be mistaken for a chicken while in sparrow form (sparrows are within a foot of height of chickens), and as a person in a chicken suit while in hybrid form. Now, onto the build proper.

Level 1: The Commoner class is, in a word, terribad. This is, I suspect, entirely the point, though it does mean I couldn’t figure out a way to justify taking more than one level of the class, meaning that Keelie ends up as something of an un-commoner. But despite the class’ incredible suckitude it does actually have two things going for it. The first is two actually decent class skills; Handle Animal and Ride, the first of which is a core aspect of the build, and the second of which will eventually allow you to ride a war chicken into battle. The second aspect going for the Commoner is the class specific Flaws in Dragon Magazine #330, of which we take Chicken Infested as the lynchpin of our chicken build, and Incomprehensible Accent. Chicken Infested provided the inspiration for the build, and will ensure that Keelie never runs out of feathered friends, while Incomprehensible Accent was mostly taken to ensure no ambiguity to qualifying for Surrogate Spellcasting (Savage Species) as I would argue that if Comprehend Languages can’t parse your words, neither can whatever being/entity/system from which you might receive spells/shape energies from. This does leave us in the slightly awkward position of not knowing which feats to fill the flaw slots with as pretty much everything we could want has class feature or level prereqs we don’t meet. We’ve selected Nymph’s Kiss and Sacred Vow (BoED) as backstory thematic options that are both beneficial for our Charisma synergy mechanics coming online shortly, and to be emblematic of the favor of the young Poultry God, and Keelie’s devotion to him. These also have the happy effect of boosting Keelie’s Diplomacy and Bluff modifiers, meaning she will be getting very good with Charades very fast.

Level 2: Whosoever doesn’t think a fire-breathing chicken is awesome seriously needs to rethink their worldview. Dragonfire Adept (DrM) is picked up pretty much entirely for that purpose. The fact that it gives us Dragontouched (DrM) without having to use a feat for it later is basically gravy. Being able to add Use Magic Device and Bluff to our class skills is an added bonus. With that said Breath Weapon is going to be Keelie’s primary means of combat damage for the rest of her career, as in Sparrow form she has a strength of 1, and no hands with which to leverage the 23 Dexterity score. I wasn’t able to fit in the two levels of Totemist for Maticore Belt shenanigans and do everything else I wanted to do. But don’t worry, we’ll be adding plenty of combat damage soon(ish). The Beguiling Influence invocation gives an untyped +6 bonus to the social skills, which gives Keelie a Diplomacy of +14, a Bluff of +15, and an Intimidate of +12.

Level 3: A level of Bard gives Keelie some additional options; minor spellcasting and access to wands from the Bard list, Bardic Music (though only once per day), and Bardic Knowledge adds another out of combat utility to her kit. The high skill points and nice skill list means she can keep Handle Animal and Ride maxed out while bringing Disguise Self up enough to possibly be useful. At this level we pick up Entangling Exhalation (RoD), which is flat out awesome. Your breath weapon damage is halved (don’t care much, 1d6 was already bad), and anyone who takes damage is entangled for 1d4 rounds, no save. This keeps Keely vaguely relevant in combat, turning her into somewhat of a battlefield controller. Combined with a fly speed (assuming you’re not riding a chicken at this point), you can do quite a lot of BFC with this alone. This level will become much more relevant once Epic Feats come into play.

Level 4: Scions of any animal themed gods should be in touch with nature, should they not? The level in Druid is mainly for something I’ll touch on slightly later, but it gives us access to the Urban Companion ACF (Cs), which lets us get a familiar with higher HP and no XP loss associated with its death. We of course grab a Raven --> Chicken. This chicken forms the core of our Chicken congregation. The Urban Companion gets speak with animals of its kind at level 1, and takes direction from its master like a familiar. We’ll be riding this guy for the foreseeable future.

Levels 5 & 6: We’re picking up Monk levels for the Fighting Styles Variant (UA), specifically for the clause that states: “A monk can abandon her fighting style by selecting a different bonus feat at 2nd or 6th level.” Monk bonus feats explicitly ignore prereqs, and this clause doesn’t restrict to a list of feats to pull from meaning we could theoretically grab any feat in the game. Normally I would not use such cheese, but I needed it to get my hands on the feat Animal Control (MotW). One of the prerequisites for this feat is a spell that was explicitly deleted in the move from 3.0 to 3.5 though it itself is still in the game, merely waiting update. There is no way other than the Monk bonus feat to get Animal Control. Sadly this does mean I was not able to maintain a +0 BAB, which is my greatest regret with this build. Regardless, this feat gives us the ability to command animals 3+Cha times a day as if we were commanding undead. It does stipulate that the HD limit for commanded animals is equal to the limit imposed by the spell Animal Friendship. There’s three ways I see this going down. First and saddest, it could simply not work; without the spell in the game you could argue the HD is capped at 0. Secondly and awesome-est it could be completely uncapped; without the spell in the game there’s nothing to keep the HD constrained. Third and most likely, you could be constrained to the limit in the spell description which is HD equal to your Druid Caster level (1 at this point). For Chickens this means up to 4 chickens can be turned into your rabid mind-controlled attack animals at once. Whenever you run low on chickens simply pull them out of your pockets with the Chicken Infested flaw. At this level we also pick up Shape Soulmeld (Beast Tamer Circlet) (MoI), which gives us a bonus to Handle Animal for a total of +17, meaning we’re pretty decent with Animals at this point.

Epic Feats:
E1-E6: These feats are dedicated to rounding out our ability to utilize Chickens. Binding the Beast Tamer Circlet to our Crown Chakra (either through the feat, or with an Eternal Wand of Open Least Chakra (UMD at this point is +9 ranks, +4 Cha, +2 Nymph’s Kiss, +4 Mage Spectacles conditionally = +19)) allows Keelie to Speak With Animals at will. Whether or not this gets around the Incomprehensible Accent is anyone’s guess, but it should at least give you a circumstance bonus on relevant stuff assuming a friendly DM. Practiced Spellcaster (Druid) (CAr), increases our Druid Caster level to 5, allowing Keelie to Command up to 20 chickens at a time before other Caster Level increases from items. Shape Soulmeld (Riding Bracers) gives Keelie a +4 bonus to Handle Animal and Ride, and Expanded Soulmeld Capacity and Bonus Essentia let’s us put 2 points of essential in the Riding Bracers for a +8 bonus bringin our totals for these skills to + 23 (+9 Ranks, +4 Cha, +2 Nymph’s Kiss, +8 Riding Bracers) Handle Animal and +22 (+8 Ranks, +6 Dex (Sparrow Form), +8 Riding Bracers) Ride without adding items to the mix. With the Magical Beast Trainer feat (A&E) you can rear Magical Beasts, meaning you can auto-succeed on rearing Magical Beasts of 8HD or less without magic item boosts to Handle Animal. This means you can rear a Warbeast 6HD Cockatrice (or three at once) to add to your Chicken Congregation and ride them as well. With only a +17 to your Handle Animal check (Masterwork Tool and +15 skill check item = ~22,500gp) you can raise Titanic Chickens if you can talk your DM into giving you a mated pair.

E7-E10: Now that you have your Chicken Army squared away it’s time to make them dangerous. This is why we picked up a level of Bard. We’re going to start by picking up Extra Music to make Inspire Courage less of a sometimes food, and then we’re going to pimp it out in the normal fashion. Dragonfire Inspiration (DrM) turns the IC bonus into Fire damage, Song of the Heart (ECS) improves the bonus by 1, and Words of Creation (BoED) doubles the bonus. If we pick up a Masterwork Horn, a Badge of Valor, and a wand of Inspirational Boost we can get an IC/DFI bonus of anywhere from +6/+6d6 to +10/+10d6 depending on DM interpretation of Words of Creation and its interaction with other IC boosters as well as whether you can apply both Badge of Valor and Inspirational Boost to the same song. If you can benefit from two instruments at once picking up a Masterwork Lute and a Vest of Legends gives you a +7 Effective Bard Level, further increasing IC by +1.

And that’s it! Keelie is a minionmancer of Chickens. With her high Handle Animal and all day Speak With Animals she can rear and train an arbitrarily large number of Warbeast Chickens who will follow her around. Since Handle Animal is somewhat unwieldy in combat (takes a move action for each command to each chicken) she will leave most of the chickens to do their thing (having trained them as attack chickens this should be good, if chaotic) while using her Command Animals ability to mentally puppet a selection of 20 (before other CL boosters) chickens using free actions to do so. Her chicken horde will be buffed up with at least +6d6 fire damage each – potentially as high as +12d6 – meaning we no longer care that they have a base damage of 1, and the high number of the swarm means their low BAB is going to yield to statistics and not really matter. Should large swathes of chickens be removed from the field of battle Keelie can replace them using a material component pouch and her Chicken Infested quality to resupply. While these chickens will not be as impeccably trained, she can push them with a high Handle Animal check or simply use her Command Animal ability on them. Given a few days downtime and assuming some skill boosting items Keelie can use her Handle Animal epic skill checks to rear/train chicken in a matter of days or even hours. Outside of combat Keelie is quite charming, despite needing to resort to charades to get her point across, and knows a little (very little) about everything from her Bardic Knowledge ability.

So, it should probably be noted that if you have issues with the Animal Control BS I pulled in this build the same effect can be achieved through 5 levels of Cleric or Druid and the Initiate of Nature feat. This seemed both cheap and not-really-a-commoner-at-all build and was not used here. Also, I think Keelie as built is WAY more entertaining than a straight Cleric or Druid build.

Another note is about Incarnum and Sparrow form. Magic of Incarnum states that you can only Shape a number of Soulmelds equal to your Constitution -10. The book only specifies this for during the morning hour while shaping the Soulmelds and never specifies what happens if your Constitution Score goes below this threshold. If you believe that Constitution losses cause you to lose your shaped Soulmelds then Keelie cannot have any Soulmelds shaped in Sparrow form, as she has a Con of 10. There are a couple ways to get around this. The first is to simply stay in Hybrid form forever and be a person in a chicken suit. This means you will not be riding a chicken unless you get your hands on a 9+HD Cockatrice and a permanent Reduce Person spell or a tame Titanic Chicken. The second is to swap out the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity Feat for the Undead Meldshaper feat after getting all the Incarnum feats you want, killing yourself, and becoming a Necropolitan. This seemed a step too far for me and so I did not include it in the official build.

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-01, 11:40 PM

Contestant #2

Graelette, the
Dracoplaberrenecronoid Clerangeroguariansage
(Bugbear Chameleon) (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1700423)

http://cp14.nevsepic.com.ua/208/20789/1385258032-004.jpg
Credit: Lineage II (http://cp14.nevsepic.com.ua/208/20789/1385258032-004.jpg)
Graelette, the Dracoplaberrenecronoid Clerangeroguariansage (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1700423)
Female NE Bugbear (Undead [Aug. Humanoid, Planetouched Dragonblooded Human])
Commoner/Ranger/Cleric/Fighter/SwordSage/Chameleon
Level 1, Init 17, HP 105/105, Speed 70', Fly(Avg) 50'
Abilities Str 24, Dex 20, Con -, Int 16, Wis 22, Cha 18
AC 28, Touch 22, Flat-footed 23
Fort 10, Ref 12, Will 14, Base Attack Bonus 2
+1 Greataxe +13 (3d6 +10 +2 +1, x3)
Deadly Chill Strike +11 (1d6 +3 +2 +1, x2)
Deadly Chill Tail +10 (1d6 +3 +2 +1, x2)
Deadly Chill Bite +10 (1d6 +3 +2 +1, x2)
+1 Armor Shiftweave (+1 Armor, +5 Dex, +1 Deflect, +5 Natural, +6 Misc)
Skills Jump 38, Spot/Listen 17, Survival 16, Balance 14, Disguise 14, Move Silently 13, Bluff 12, Climb/Swim 12, Know(Nature) 11, Sense Motive 11, Diplomacy 8, Spellcraft 8, Know(Arcana/Local/Religion/Dungeon/Planes) 4
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6) Daylight 1/day
Special Abilities Darkvision 60, Scent, Resist 5 Cold / Acid / Electric, Uncanny Dodge
Maneuvers Readied Distracting Ember, Cloak of Deception, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap
Condition
Persistent Swift Haste [ +1 Attack, +1 Dodge, +30ft move, extra Full attack ]
Primal Instinct [ +5 Initiative / Survival / Know(Nature) ]
Primal Hunter [ +5 Climb / Jump / Swim, Uncanny Dodge ]
Divine Focus [ Spells, +2 Fort / Will / Know(Religion) ]
Child of Shadow [ 20% Miss ]
Additional +6 Turn Resistance, +2 vs Control Undead
32 Point Buy: 16/14/8/13/14/13

Venerable Lesser(PGtF) Aasimar(RoD) Medium Humanoid(Planetouched Human)
+2 Wis, +2 Cha
Darkvision 60ft, +2 Spot/Listen, Daylight SLA, Resist 5 Cold/Acid/Elec

Bugbear(SRD) Medium Humanoid(Goblinoid)
+4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -6 Cha
Darkvision 60ft, Scent, +3 NA, +4 Silent

Level
Class
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Skills
Feats
Features
ACF Trades

Race
Lesser Aasimar
Humanoid (Planetouched Human )
+2 Wis, +2 Cha, Darkvision 60ft,
+2 Spot/Listen, Daylight SLA,
Resist 5 Cold/Acid/Elec
(PGtF) Lesser Outsider, Outsider for Planetouched
(RoD) Human Variant, Planetouched Human subtype

1st
Commoner 1

4 x (2 + Int) = 20
4 Listen, 4 Spot,
4 Survival, 4 Spell,
1 Know(Arcana),
1 Know(Local),
1 Know(Nature),
1 Know(Religion)
Dragontouched(DrM),
Dragon Tail(RotD),
Able Learner(RoD)
Nagging Cough(Dr330),
Corpse(Dr330)

Race
Bugbear
Humanoid( Planetouched Dragonblood Human )
+4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -6 Cha,
Darkvision 60ft, Scent,
+3 Natural Armor, +4 Silent

2nd
Ranger 1
+1
+2
+2

(6 + Int) = 9
5 Balance,
5 Listen, 5 Spot,
4 Survival, 4 Spell,
1 Know(Arcana),
1 Know(Dungeon),
1 Know(Local),
1 Know(Nature),
1 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Planes)
Track
Arcane Hunter, Favored Enemy,
Lion Spirit Totem, Poison Use,
Celestial Slayer, AC Bonus(Wis)
(CM, Arcane Hunter) Favored Enemy for Arcane Hunter
(EoE, Celestial Slayer) Wild Empathy for Celestial Slayer
(UA, Shape-Changing Ranger) Combat Style for Fast Movement (+10ft) + Wild Shape
(CC, Barbarian Variant) Trade Fast Movement for Spirit Totem
(UA, Druid Variant) Wild Shape + Armor for AC Bonus (Wis), Favored Enemy, Track
(Ds, Trap-Expert Ranger) Track for Trapfinding
(DotU, Rogue variant) Trapfinding for Poison Use

3rd
Cleric 1

+2

+2
(6 + Int) = 9 (+5)
5 Balance,
5 Bluff, 5 Disguise,
6 Listen, 6 Spot,
5 Survival, 5 Spell,
1 Know(Arcana),
1 Know(Dungeon),
1 Know(Local),
1 Know(Nature),
1 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Planes)
Knowledge Devotion(CC),
Travel Devotion(CC),
Open Minded
Rebuke Undead, Lore,
Trickery/Travel/Knowledge Domains
Cloistered

Temp
Necropolitan
Undead ( Augmented Humanoid Planetouched Dragonblood Human )
Augmented Undead, D12 HD,
Resist Control, Turn Resistance,
Unnatural Resilience,
-3000 GP, -4000 XP
Raised on a Desecrated(PH) altar (+2 Att / Dmg / Saves [Profane], +2 HP per HD)
by an Enhanced Undead(UA) Necromancy Wizard (+4 Str / Dex [Enh], +2 HP per HD)
with the following E6 epic feats:
Corpsecrafter(LM) +4 Str [Enh], +2 HP per HD
Hardened Flesh(LM) +2 Natural Armor bonus
Nimble Bones(LM) +4 Initiative, +10ft Move
Deadly Chill(LM) +1d6 Cold w/ Natural Weapons
Bolster Resistance(LM) +4 Turn Resistance

3rd
Cleric 1

+2

+2
(6 + Int) = 9
5 Balance,
5 Bluff, 5 Disguise,
6 Listen, 6 Spot,
5 Survival, 5 Spell,
1 Know(Arcana),
1 Know(Dungeon),
1 Know(Local),
1 Know(Nature),
1 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Planes)
Knowledge Devotion,
Extend Spell
Rebuke Undead, Lore
Hunger/Planning/Knowledge Domains
Cloistered

4th
Fighter 1
+1
+2

(2 + Int) = 5
5 Balance,
5 Bluff, 7 Disguise,
6 Listen, 6 Spot,
3 Move Silently,
5 Survival, 5 Spell,
1 Know(Arcana),
1 Know(Dungeon),
1 Know(Local),
1 Know(Nature),
1 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Planes)

Hit and Run,
Sneak Attack +1d6
(DotU) Trade Heavy Armor for Hit and Run
(UA) Fighter Feats for Sneak Attack

5th
Swordsage 1

+2
+2
(6 + Int) = 9
5 Balance,
8 Bluff, 8 Disguise,
6 Listen, 6 Spot,
4 Move Silently,
5 Survival, 5 Spell,
4 Sense Motive,
1 Know(Arcana),
1 Know(Dungeon),
1 Know(Local),
1 Know(Nature),
1 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Planes)
Imp. Unarmed Strike,
Weapon Focus
(Shadow Hand)
Quick to Act +1,
Unarmed (As Monk)

6th
Chameleon 1

(4 + Int) = 7
5 Balance,
8 Bluff, 8 Disguise,
8 Listen, 8 Spot,
4 Move Silently,
5 Survival, 5 Spell,
5 Sense Motive,
1 Know(Arcana),
1 Know(Dungeon),
1 Know(Local),
1 Know(Nature),
1 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Planes),
Collector of Stories
Persistent Spell

Epic 6
Divine Metamagic(CD), Practiced Spellcaster(CAr), Multiattack(MMV), Aberration Blood(LoM), Inhuman Reach(LoM), Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Starspawn(LoM), Dragonfire Strike(DrM)

I could find nothing as far as using the Commoner class alone... 6 levels offers no more than one, no special avenues or spice to use. This left me with only the special flaws in Dragon 330, which offer unique starting platforms for different builds. Via the usage of Corpse + Reincarnate, Commoners have a very unique avenue to using the most of their racial choices. So, like a base Commoner, let's get racist racial!

By taking Commoner, Nagging Cough, and Corpse, you trade off BAB + Saves, receive the least HP and Skills possible, have no Class features, and lose 2 Con. In return, you get to combine the abilities of two races, with two additional level 1 feats that you can use to expand on those Level 1 Only racial choices. Graelette takes advantage of this as much as she can:

Strong Mental abilities from the original race.
Strong Physical abilities from the new race.
Three different subtypes.
Three racial feats at level 1.

With high ability scores across the board, Graelette can choose a particularly MAD route that would normally not be advisable. The goal here then, is to use as much of the multiple abilities and racial avenues she can take, to maximize on the platform that the Commoner class has made for her. In short, this build aims to be the most Chameleon build possible in E6: Divine spells, Arcane spells, Tank, DPS, Buffer, and Scout... Just not all at the same time. DMs, feel free to throw Graelette at a party of adventurers and see what they guess she is!

Done my time and served my sentence
Dress me up and watch me die

Once a pure-hearted Aasmiar woman, Graelette traveled the world preaching love as a teacher and field worker. Her planar and draconic heritage always kept her apart from the rest of the commoner communities, but she didn't mind as long as she could continue to improve the lives of the towns and villages she came across. Continuing her pilgrimage into a late age, she became frail and sick, sticking to teaching the children and sharing counsel with the local leadership. One fateful day the village she was in was attacked by a rival nation's village. Graelette attempted to halt a warrior in pursuit of the children she taught, and was overrun and trampled to death before the warrior could stop his steed.

Recognizing her as an Aasimar, the warrior brought her body back for a proper burial. Instead, a divine caster was contracted to revive her, as a token of her noble actions and post-war apology to the nobles. However, when the divine caster revived her as a mutant Bugbear rather than her original divine form, they simply released in secret, to avoid embarrassment.

You've gotta be so cold
To make it in this world

Rediscovering herself as a furred and outcast youth with golden eyes and a draconic tail, Graelette resolved to live life on her terms, for herself this time around. Seeking out a way to protect herself from disease and death, she worked her way into a cult of necromancers: Studying divine magics, currying favor, and participating in one dark ritual after another. Finally, she transforms again as a Necropolitan, freeing herself from the physical concerns of the mortal. This makes her again more monstrous, now with a ghoulish bite and pale complexion as her fur falls out. Before Graelette leaves, she learns the secrets of disguising her undead features from the rest of the Necropolitan community.

As Graelette's journey continues to spiral out of control, so do her desires and her physical form. Her mixed heritage and multiple transformations wage internal war on her body, as she continues to mutate. She slowly grows larger, lengthening in limb and tail, before sprouting leathery wings. Her fighting form becomes more feral, using her entire body as a savage weapon. She swirls with magic and supernatural power, emanating shadow and flame at will. Her strikes radiate a grave chill, at times even a draining touch or furious fire. Graelette's final form will either be pure incarnation of feral nature, or a horrible aberration of magic gone awry.

If it feels good, tastes good,
it must be mine

Graelette's main motivation for adventuring is simply the fame, fortune, and excitement. Having lived a life of sacrifice and restraint, she isn't going to waste her second chance at life repeating the same mistakes. She lives a life of pure hedonism: Food, Wine, Perfume, Fabric, Music... She longs to fill her sharp senses with every luxury she can. (Think religious schoolgirl gone off to public College for the first time, or an old Japanese man transported to a young girl's body.) She has been reborn a vain and cruel creature, reveling in her strong and youthful body, and the power it weilds over her opponents. She enjoys conflict for the rush of both adrenaline and sadism, living purely in the moment.

I'm all dressed up and naked
I see what's mine and take it

Before her undead rituals, she strived to maintain her physical status: Shaving her excessive body hair, maintaining muscle mass, avoiding dirt / disease. After achieving eternal youth, her life is much simpler. Her hair has all fallen out, exposing her now alabaster skin and musculature. No longer must she worry about age and disease, and can eat as she pleases without gaining weight. Her morning routine is now light training, followed by washing and make-up (Disguise) to pass as human. As she enjoys light and revealing clothing, for both combat and vanity, this generally requires extra effort, but she passes as a pale human.

I'm gonna change you like a Remix
Then I'll raise you like a Phoenix

For the Planetouched Human Subtype, we look to the following variant rule:

According to the Player’s Handbook, half-elves and half-orcs are treated as elves and as orcs, respectively, for the purpose of determining various game effects, but not as humans. Other humanlike races, such as the aasimars and tieflings, are described as “humans” with a trace of celestial or fiendish blood, but are outsiders rather than humanoids.
...
At the DM’s discretion, halfhuman and humanlike races can be grouped together with humans as humanoids with the human subtype (rather than their own subtype). This means that such races qualify as human for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite for a feat or prestige class, for activating a human-only magic item, for adjudicating effects that treat humans differently from other races, and the like.
...
Such races retain whatever humanoid subtypes they possessed, while gaining the human subtype.

Reincarnate explicitly creates a young, healthy body for Graelette, ditching both Mummy Rot and the Venerable penalties.

Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired.
...
The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand.
...
A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body.
...
The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1. If the subject was 1st level, its new Constitution score is reduced by 2.
...
The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form.
Rather than pick just any humanoid, I stuck to the list provided and chose the Bugbear for this exercise (They never get any love anyway.) As Reincarnate explicitly forces you to keep your Feats, HP, Skills, BAB, and Saves, this means no Racial HD is gained or lost. LA is neither discussed nor introduced, despite many of the forms on the list having LA, so we ignore that as well.

This means +4 STR, +2 DEX, +0 CON, +3 INT, +5 WIS, +5 CHA, on a D4 chassis with Poor BAB/Saves/Skills, at LA +0.

While the only thing the original form explicitly loses is the Physical ability bonuses, I assume we lose the Aasimar's Darkvision as an explicitly physical trait. Bugbear adds Darkvision back, providing Scent, Natural Armor, and Move Silently. Reincarnate does not discuss type change at all, heavily implying no type change is allowed. Subtype is similarly omitted, so we also leave that as-is, remaining a Humanoid(Planetouched Dragonblooded Human).

Heroes always get remembered
But you know legends never die

While Dragontouched gives her some extra HP and disease resistance, the Bloodtouched Rite gives even more:

... permanently loses 2 points of Constitution, but gains:

Bonus hp equal to Charisma bonus (if any).
+2 profane bonus on saves against poison, stunning , disease, death effects, and energy drain.
+1 caster level on all necromancy spells.
If the character is capable of rebuking undead, her effective cleric level for this ability is increased by 1.

The Constitution loss can't be prevented or reversed by any means. A creature without a Constitution score gains no benefit from the Bloodtouched rite.
After becoming Undead, she loses her low CON score, gaining immunities to the diseases that ravaged her in a past life. She keeps her Bloodtouched Rite bonuses (having already gained them) and gains CHA to Concentration and her special abilities:

An undead creature uses its Charisma modifier wherever its Constitution modifier would normally apply (except Fortitude saving throws, for which the creature must use its +0 Constitution modifier if it needs to make a Fortitude save at all). Thus, the example barbarian rages for a number of rounds equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier (but always for at least 1 round).
Since I haven't find anything that overrules this, just refers to it in part (CHA for Concentration, CHA for Mummy Rot, etc.), this should also work for her flight, giving her 5 rounds of consecutive flight per Starspawn's flight ability. She will find the best Necromancer to raise her, as detailed in the table above, giving her further speed, sturdiness and resistance. At this point, she should be a perfect physical specimen, well worth showing herself off.
For most alternate class features, you lose something from class 1 to gain something else "As Class 2". As I understand it, this means that feature should work and act exactly as if you were taking Class 2 rather than Class 1, for anything referring to itself or other features you may have.

Ex. Gaining Imp. Uncanny Dodge (as Rogue) would mean that you count your Class 1 levels (and not any Rogue levels you may have) to determine who may Sneak attack you.

Since this feature treats Class 1 as Class 2 for all purposes, I should be able to trade said feature as if it was from Class 2 as well, as long as I am trading it at the same Level, and giving up the same features.

While this may be confusing, I outlined it as best as I could in the level by level table above. This jumble of class features further pushes her in that Monstrous Chameleon type: An unarmored pouncing creature of deadly malice and venom.
Necropolitan allows Graelette to focus on only 5/6 abilities:

STR(24): Attack, Damage, Stand-Still saves, CMB defense
DEX(20): AC, Init, Reflex, AoOs, Damage vs. Flat
CON: -
INT(16): Skills, Insight to Att/Dmg, Arcane spells
WIS(22): AC, Will, Divine spells
CHA(18): HP, Rebuke/Persist, Flight

Graelette's varied skillset allows her to fulfill multiple roles, as needed:

DPS: 5 Attacks per Full/Pounce, Multiple extra energy damages
Tank: High HP, AC, Saves, Energy Resistances and Uncanny Dodge.
Controller: Reach, AoOs and Stand Still
Scout: Flight, Teleport, Darkvision, Scent, Track, Spot/Listen/Survival
Buff/Debuff: Arcane (CL6 Haste/Dispel/Stoneskin/Sphere/Globe/Etc.)

Scouting and tracking will come easily to her, allowing her to keep a party fed and moving in the right direction. Her Darkvision, Scent, and Flight allow her to keep watch, which she can do all night with no need for sleep.

As needed, she can switch to Arcane magic, offering CL6 spells usually cast at 3rd and 4th level: Haste, Heroism, Protection from Energy, Dispel Magic, Break Enchantment, Stoneskin, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Dimension Door, and more. This exchanges some personal power for shared group power, and the ability to debuff/deminish the opposition.
In Combat, Graelette acts as a one-woman Entangle+Fireball, using Stand Still with reach to block up to 5 opponents from moving/attacking the backline (Reflex DC ~35), all while setting up a following full Attack on opponents in her 25'x25' area.

She does all this as a Medium Humanoid, meaning she is a great target for any Enlarge Person spell the party may have: 15' reach plus an additional +2d6+4+2+2+2 damage (Not included below, though she is capable of casting Enlarge Person)

Her main weapon is a Great Axe, dealing 3d6+13 (Avg 23.5). Her three natural attacks each deal 1d6+6 + 1d6 Cold (Avg 13). All deal 2d6 Fire damage when flanking/denied Dex, +5 vs. a Flat-footed opponent. Finally, 21 of her successful natural attacks per day deal 1d6 Dessication and +1 CON damage(DC 17), via three CL7 castings of Parching Touch, holding the charge between encounters:

Improved Unarmed Strike: You can add the damage of your unarmed strike to the damage of a touch spell by delivering the spell as a regular melee attack instead of a melee touch attack.
...
If the unarmed strike misses, then the spell is not discharged.

With +17 Init/Spot/Listen, Darkvision+Scent, Graelette will almost certainly be ambushing/going first, but isn't necessary for her to do so to hit near her full potential:

Weapon
Damage
Fire
Cold
Dess.
CON
Avg

Greataxe
3d6+13+5
2d6

35.5

Greataxe(Haste)
3d6+13+5
2d6

35.5

Bite
1d6+6+5
2d6
1d6
1d6
1
28.5, -1 CON

Tail
1d6+6+5
2d6
1d6
1d6
1
28.5, -1 CON

Unarmed
1d6+6+5
2d6
1d6
1d6
1
28.5, -1 CON

Routine
Damage
Fire
Cold
Dess.
CON
Avg

Full Attack, vs. Flat
9d6+69
10d6
3d6
3d6
3
156.5, -3 CON

Full Attack, Invisible
9d6+69
10d6
3d6
3d6
3
156.5, -3 CON

Full Attack, Flanking/Denied
9d6+39
10d6
3d6
3d6
3
126.5, -3 CON

Full Attack
9d6+39

3d6
3d6
3
91.5, -3 CON

Wolf Fang, Flanking/Denied
4d6+19
4d6
1d6
1d6
1
54, -1 CON

Wolf Fang Strike
4d6+19

1d6
1d6
1
40, -1 CON

Attack/AoO, Flanking/Denied
3d6+13
2d6

30.5

Attack/AoO
3d6+13

23.5

As for her average damage:

Surprise Round: Full attack the flat-footed.
Round 1: Full attack a flat-footed opponent with less Init
1/Encounter: Greater Invis, Full attack vs. flat-footed
At-Will: Charge 10'+ into Full Attack position
1/Encounter: Sudden Leap, Jump into Full Attack position
1/Encounter: Distracting Ember, attack as flanking
1/Encounter: Wolf Fang Strike, Std attack w/ two weapons

Assuming the usual 6 rounds per Encounter, then:

1x Full Attack vs. Flat (Surprise Round)
2x Full Attack vs. Flat
1x Full Attack, Flanking/Denied
1x Full Attack
1x Wolf Fang Strike
1x Attack

(3*156.5+126.5+91.5+40+23)/7 = 107.2, -13 CON

This average would decrease in longer encounters where full attacks aren't possible (though flight and jump allow her to ignore most difficult terrain), increasing for each full attack and each AoO dealing damage rather than setting up the next full attack. The 1-3 Insight damage per hit is not included above.

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-01, 11:42 PM

Contestant #3

Coach.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcvou0SAxZI

Flaw: Incomprehensible Accent

Effect: No one can understand what you are saying. Your Thick accent even baffles comprehend languages and similar magical effects.
Simple Weapon: Light Xbow
NG Forest Gnome Bard 3/Commoner 2/Expert 1
HP: 4d6+2d4+6

Race: Forest Gnome

+2 CON, -2 STR, Small (+1 AC, +1 BAB, +4 Hide/+8 in wooded area, -4 Grapple), Speed 20, Lowlight, +2 saves vs illusions, +1 DC for illusions cast by gnome, +1 attack vs kobolds, goblinoids and reptilian humanoids, +4 dodge bonus to AC vs Giants, +2 Listen/Craft (alchemy), SLA’s 1/day speak w/ animals (burrowing only, for 1min), if CHA is at least 10, 1/day dancing lights/ghost sound/prestidigitation at CL 1, DC 10+CHA+spell lvl. (Su) Pass w/o Trace as an innate ability. Automatic languages: Gnome, Elven, Sylvan. (and a simple language that allows basic communication with forest animals) Bonus: common*, draconic*, dwarven*, giant, goblin, orc

PT BUY:
STR 10 DEX 10 CON 10 INT 16 WIS 11 CHA 17
RACIAL
STR 8 DEX 10 CON 12 INT 16 WIS 11 CHA 17
Point into CHA

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
Commoner
+0
+0
+0
+0
Craft-Composing 4, Craft-Wordsmith 4, Profession-Coach 4, cc-Knowledge-Local 2 (Western Heartlands), cc-Perform 2
Hidden Talent-Psionic Minor Creation, (B) Artist
Flaw: Incomprehensible Accent

2nd
Gnome Bard
+0
+0
+2
+2
Spellcraft 4, Perform 4, Know-Arcane/History/Nature 1
-
Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, Counter Fear, Fascinate, Gnome Cantrips, Inspire Courage +1, Spells

3rd
Bard 2
+1
+0
+3
+3
Craft-Compose/Wordsmith 5, Perform 6, Profession 5, Know-Dungeoneer/Engineer/Planes/Religion 1
Melodic Casting
-

4th
Bard 3
+2
+1
+3
+3
Craft-Compose/Wordsmith 7, Diplomacy 2, Perform 7, Profession 7, Know-Nobility 1
-
Inspire Competence

5th
Commoner 2
+3
+1
+3
+3
Craft-Compose/Wordsmith 8, Profession 8, cc-Perform 8
-
-

6th
Expert
+3
+1
+3
+5
Craft-Compose/Wordsmith 9, Diplomacy 7, Perform 9, Profession 9
Trivial Knowledge
-

1-Hidden Talent –PMC: gain 2 pp and 1st level power, Psionic subtype
1- Artist, Regional Feat: +2 on perform checks, +2 on one craft skill involving art (Composer, or wordsmith if you think music isn’t a form of art), 3 extra uses of Bardic Music/day
3-Melodic Casting: Perform check instead of Concentration and can cast as part of Perform
6- Trivial Knowledge: whenever you make a knowledge or bardic knowledge check, roll twice and select the better of the two rolls

Epic Feats:
1: Obscure Lore: +4 insight bonus to bardic knowledge checks
2: Extra Music: 4 extra uses of Bardic Music
3: Epic of the Lost King: expend 1 music to remove fatigue from 3 allies, expend 3 music to remove exhaustion
4: Song of the Heart: Music is improved: Inspire line bonus by +1, fascinate dc increases by 1
5: Music of Making: expend 1 music to double conjuration durations (Psionic Minor Creation..), as well as grant a +4 sacred bonus to Craft (improved to +6 from Song/Heart)
6: Extra Music: 4 extra uses of Bardic Music
7: Skill Focus – Perform: +3 to skill check
8: Resourceful Buyer: communities are considered 1 size larger, see table 5-2 in DMG p137
9: Extra Music: 4 extra uses of Bardic Music (total 18 uses)
10: Disguise Spell: Perform check vs Spot to detect casting

Bonus spells: an extra 1st lvl spell
2- 0-2/5
3- 0-3/5, 1-1/2
4- 0-3/6, 1-2/3

(( the number of 0th’s known is a guess, the standard bard gets 4/5/6 respectively, the gnome bard gets 5 at 1st, so it’s either 5/5/6 or you increase each level to compensate for that first one to 5/6/7. Either way, we really only care about 4 0th’s regardless ))

Spells Known:
0- Ghost Sound, Mending, Prestidigitation, Summon Instrument
1- Charm Person, Hypnotism, Comprehend Languages

Racial SLA’s:
1/day speak w/ animals (burrowing only, for 1min), 1/day dancing lights/ghost sound/prestidigitation
Aside from the 9 bajillion uses for Prestidigitation, there are some less known uses in Tome and Blood, page 80.

The biggest challenge for this “ingredient” is how do you make it shine? Do you try to make the best commoner possible? They only have one “class ability” and that is their skill list, and perhaps the single simple weapon proficiency. The skill list is: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Jump, Listen, Profession, Ride, Spot, Swim, Use Rope.

OR

Do you try to make any other e6 build work while incorporating Commoner levels somehow?
I think we should be building an NPC, and essentially a non-combatant, as such, option 1.

Complete Adventurer: Disguise Spell, Obscure Lore
Complete Mage: Melodic Casting
Complete Scoundrel: Epic of the Lost King
Dragon 330: 87 (Flaws)
Eberron Campaign Setting: Extra Music, Music of Making, Song of the Heart
Expanded Psionics Handbook: Hidden Talent, Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal
Player’s Guide to Faerun: Artist Regional Feat
PHB: Bard, Feats, Spells
Races of Destiny: Resourceful Buyer
Races of Stone: Gnome Bard, Trivial Knowledge,
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/commoner.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/expert.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gnome.htm - Forest Gnome

Coach is a Teacher at the local Education Hut #271. Just like teachers the worlds over, he has more than 1 job to make ends meet. His primary job at school is to coach the various sports teams, and he occasionally will fill in or take over for the music teacher as well.

Now, no one can understand a single thing he ever says, but that doesn’t stop him from being an amazing mentor to the next generation. Nor stop him from being the best coach in 15 districts. Anytime there’s a problem student, he pulls them aside and somehow they come to an understanding. The problem goes away, and even previously hostile students leave with a smile on their faces.

Whenever his team is getting beaten, he just sings a little ditty and they turn things around. Everyone runs faster, sees clearer, jumps farther, etc. Late in the game when both teams are beaten up pretty bad, his teams always manage to find a second wind and push through for the victory, and morale is never a problem either!! He always seems to know some hidden trivia about the visiting teams, their strengths and weaknesses, their playstyles. It doesn’t matter if it’s the Clockville Constructs, the Oozians, Drakeville Dragons, or even the Deep Town Dwarves. It’s uncanny.

Coach has a never ending stream of notebooks he uses to write instructions in, or in a pinch will create floating displays for game clinching plays to appear on, or instructions to the special teams.

The end of season banquet’s his catering company throws are always first rate affairs. The food is amazing, every flavor you could ever imagine, and then some you never even thought of. And all from the most mundane and normal of ingredients, Coach is truly a master chef as well.
Coach also acts as the neighborhood handyman, making minor repairs, cleaning the occasional house, and anything else that needs done. His little storefront either has everything you could want, or he can find it for you.

On top of all this, Coach is a world-famous rock star! He writes, performs, and sells some of the most moving musical pieces around. He also writes articles for the local paper, creates calligraphy for the visiting nobles, and is in the process of rewriting the entire school’s curriculum as well.
Coach is a recognized expert in many fields. He’s an example to all the good little Gnomes and Gnom-etts, that anyone can come from the most common of origins, and prosper.

Coach either writes instructions down, uses his bardic music to inspire, or uses prestidigitation to create floating chalkboards in order to communicate his wishes.

(( as an exercise in thought, would being ununderstandable mean that no one would know you were casting a spell with a verbal component as generally speaking you just spout gibberish the entire time? ))

Ghost sound can be used to confuse the “enemy” quarterbacks. Charm/Hypnotism can be used to sway the referees, or to get a player to throw the game. Fascinate could be used to get an enemy player to miss a pass, not swing at that home run, miss a tackle, not block a kick, etc.

Gnome Cantrips: add Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, and Prestidigitation to known list, pick 2 others

Counter Fear: 3+ ranks in Perform, counter magical fear effects, any ally w/in 30ft can use perform check in place of saving throw, and gets a new save every round. Lasts 10 rounds

Expert: choose any 10 skills as class skills: Concentration, both Crafts, Diplomacy, Perform, Profession, any 4 Knowledges
Adaptation: Clearly our build is NPC focused, not PC w/ ranks in Commoner focused. Consider applying the “attack” bonus’s into morale bonuses for skills for the players on the field. Saves vs fear could be for rallying late in the game. The enemy is clearly the other team in whatever sportsing thing is going on.

Items:
Masterwork Tools, for a +2 bonus to crafting, perform, profession (a masterwork whistle, bullhorn, quill pens, etc)
Regional Feat grants us a single Potion of Lesser Restoration

Bardic Knowledge Check: +3 (class levels) +3 (INT) +4 (Obscure Lore) = +10, and can roll 2x and pick better roll. Using this to pick up some of that stray knowledge about the enemy team being faced.

Bardic Music uses: +3 (class levels) +3 (Artist) +12 (Extra Music 3x) = 18
-Perform Check: +9 (ranks) +2 (Artist) +3 (Skill Focus) = 14 + 4 (CHA) = 18
-Counter Fear: any ally w/in 30 ft can use my Perform check in place of their Will save against Fear effects, and for each consecutive round needed up to 10 rounds
-Fascinate: 1 creature within 90ft, Perform check+1, DC = target’s Will save, meaning likely auto success. Target sits quietly to listen to song and takes no other action up to 3 rounds, target gets -4 on skill checks as reactions such as listen/spot.
-Inspire Courage: +2 attack bonus/morale bonus on saves as long as allies hear, and for 5 rounds after
-Inspire Competence: +3 competence bonus to allies within 30ft on skill checks
Words of Creation (BoED 31, 48) could be taken as a feat, the creation aspect of it essentially mimics the Music of Making Feat (without the loss of a BM use), albeit w/o the synergy bonus from Songs of the Heart. The bonuses to Bardic Music could also be used, but at 3d4 and 6d4 non-lethal damage per use, it gets dicey pretty quick. Generally effects that double duration don’t stack, so the doubling of conjuration durations wouldn’t happen twice. The Inspire effects would double as well, but at this low level that’s only another +1 to the bonus for inspire courage, and another +2 to inspire competence at the cost of a pile of damage you can’t mitigate.

Other non-allowed material that would’ve been nice:
Craft Expertise Feat: Dragon 339 – generate 2x the normal value when crafting
War Chant Feat: Dragon 335 – chant for 3 rounds as a free action, gain +2 to initiative, grant +1 to allies
Chaos Music Feat: Dragon 326 – like practiced spellcaster for bardic music
Innate Magic Feat: Dragon 324: choose any 0th spell to cast 1/day as an SLA (for more prestidigitations)
Speak to the Masses Feat: Dragon 339: When using Fascinate you may affect 2x the creatures, +2 DC on fascinate and suggestion

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-01, 11:44 PM

Contestant #4

Bad Farmer Gristle
LE Chicken Infested Kalashtar Weresheep Commoner 1/Animal 1/Psychic Warrior 2
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wake_up_sheeple.png

There’s a cranky old farmer at the edge of town.
Outside the walls where the monsters prowl.
With his flock of sheep and old henhouse,
The beasts simply can’t drive him out.
They see him as a tasty snack,
But are always beaten back.
No matter what the monsters do,
They find his mutton hard to chew.

Ability ScoresPoint Buy: Str 17, 8 Dex, 12 Con, 14 Int, 14 Wis, 11 Cha
Weresheep Adjustments: 15 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Int, 16 Wis, 11 Cha
Increase Str at 4th level.
The Build

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
Commoner 1
+0
+0
+0
+0
Tumble 4, Handle Animal 4
1st: Hidden Talent (Synchronicity)
Chicken-Infested: Combat Reflexes
Were-Sheep: Power Attack
Skilled City-Dweller (Trade Ride for Tumble)

2nd
Animal 1
+0
+2
+2
+0
Tumble 4, Handle Animal 4, Control Shape 3
Lycanthrope: Iron Will
Alternate Form, DR 5/silver, Lycanthropic Empathy (Sheep), Low-light Vision, Scent, +2 Natural Armor[td]

[td]3rd
Psychic Warrior 1
+0
+4
+2
+0
Tumble 4, Handle Animal 4, Control Shape 6
3rd: Quick Draw
Psychic Warrior 1: Linked Power
Skilled City-Dweller (Ride for Tumble)

4th
Psychic Warrior 2
+1
+5
+2
+0
Tumble 6, Handle Animal 4, Control Shape 7
Psychic Warrior 2: Practiced Manifester
-

Epic Feats
1. Cleave
2. Great Cleave
3. Skill Focus (Control Shape)
4. Willing Deformity
5. Deformity (Tall)
6. Combat Expertise
7. Improved Trip
8. Knockdown
9. Psicrystal Affinity
10. Psicrystal Containment

Psionic Powers
Level
PP
New Powers Known
1st
3
Synchronicity
2nd
4
-
3rd
5*
Grip of Iron
4th
6*
Expansion*Does not include bonus PP for a high Wis score.

So what does Farmer Gristle do when the monsters come to his farmstead seeking to devour his delicious Weresheep flesh? He comes into combat in hybrid form, Quick Drawing his halberd as many times as necessary to actually get it into his hand, dropping chickens as he goes and pulling a few more out of a spell component pouch for good measure. He’ll then move away to an advantageous position and drop a Linked Synchronicity, either spending a few extra PP to make his readied action unspecified, or just setting it against a charge, as it’s a reasonably safe bet that the enemy will do so what with his deliciousness forcing them to attack him. His chickens will also chase after him and attack, as they’re omnivores that would certainly eat the flesh of a human or sheep. Gristle’s DR 5/Silver renders the chickens’ attacks impotent, so he can casually AoO them to generate Cleave attacks. In the ensuing turn, he gets an extra Synchronicity action, and at full epic feats, can use the second Psionic Focus from Psicrystal Containment to drop another Linked Power (either another Linked Synchronicity or a Grip of Iron linked to Synchronicity immediately before his turn) to improve his action economy as he continues to draw enemies to beat them down with AoOs and readied attacks (double damage when against charging foes).

Complete Psionic: Linked Power
Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a): Skilled City-Dweller
Dragon Magazine 330: Chicken-Infested, Weresheep
Heroes of Horror: Willing Deformity, Deformity (Tall)
Races of Eberron: Kalashtar

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-01, 11:46 PM

Contestant #5

Xeno ‘Morph’ Gut-Punch, Kobold Protector

Morph grew up in a tightly knit family of boisterous, mostly chaotic neutral kobolds, all of whom were unreasonably tasty to passing monsters, a serious condition endemic to commoners which unfortunately ran in the family. Morph was unlike the others, striving for a greater good that the others had no appreciation for. One day, while Morph was meditating away from the others, his family’s energetic singing and mouth watering scent attracted the worst kind of attention, and they were all eaten by a single errant purple worm. The worm turned on the young Morph as well, but a friendly passing nymph pulled him to safety at the last second. Since that day, Morph made made it his cause to travel the land, picking up new skills along the way, braving monsters and racism alike, so that he can save others from monster attacks, up to and including the horrors of being swallowed alive by a purple worm, by using their own greatest weakness against them - their attraction to his delicious, delicious body.

Kobold: +2 Dex, -4 Str, -2 Con, small (+1 AC, +1 attack, -4 grapple, +4 hide), speed 30, +1 Natural Armor, Darkvision 60, Craft (trapmaking) as a class skill, +2 racial bonus to Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner), and Search, Light Sensitivity (dazzled by bright sunlight or daylight spell), Automatic Language: Draconic, Favored Class: Sorcerer, primary natural attack: 2X claws with 1d3 damage, secondary natural attack: bite with 1d3 damage

Original: Str14, Dex8, Con14, Int12, Wis18, Cha8
After Racial adjustments: Str10, Dex10, Con12, Int12, Wis18, Cha8
After Level 4: Str10, Dex10, Con13, Int12, Wis18, Cha8

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skill Ranks
Feats
Class Features

1st
Commoner 1
+0
+0
+0
+0
Hide +2
Listen+4
Spot+4

Delicious Flaw,
Sacred Vow,
Vow of Poverty,
Nymph’s Kiss (VoP)

racial bonus feat, Hit die 1d4

2nd
Duskblade 1
+1
+2
+0
+2
Jump+4
Intuitive Attack (VoP)
Arcane Channeling, Armored Mage (light), 2 cantrips, 2 level 1 spells (both reserved for Resist Energy (acid)), Hit die 1d10

3rd
Crusader 1
+1
+2
+0
+0
Diplomacy+4
Jump+2

Improved Unarmed Strike
Furious Counterstrike, Steely Resolve 5, maneuvers known 5, maneuvers readied 5(2), stances known 1, Hit die 1d10

4th
Warblade 1
+1
+2
+0
+0
Diplomacy+3
Jump+1
Concentration+2

Nimbus of Light (VoP)
Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude, maneuvers known 3, maneuvers readied 3, stances known 1, Hit die 1d12

5th
Swordsage 1
+0
+0
+2
+2
Hide+6

Quick to Act, Discipline Focus (weapon focus), maneuvers known 6, maneuvers readied 4, stances known 1, Hit die 1d8

6th
Shadow Sun Ninja 1
+0
+2
+2
+2
Listen+4
Spot+4

Martial Stance Feat: Wolverine Stance,
Stunning Blow(b),
Touch of Golden Ice(VoP)

Monk Abilities (stunning fist, wisdom bonus to AC), Touch of the Shadow Sun, maneuvers known 1, Hit die 1d8

E6 Epic Feats:
1: Vital Recovery (1/encounter gain 3 + CL HP when recovering a maneuver)
2: Martial Study: Iron Heart Surge
3: Multiattack
4: Giant’s toughness: +9HP
5: Giant’s toughness: +9HP
6: Giant’s toughness: +9HP
7: Giant’s toughness: +9HP
8: Giant’s toughness: +9HP
9: Giant’s toughness: +9HP
10: Giant’s toughness: +9HP

Total skills: Concentration +5, Craft (trapmaking) +3, Diplomacy +10, Hide +13, Jump +5, Listen +12, Spot +12

Full Attack: Unarmed Strike +9 (1d4+1+ golden ice), 2X Claws +7 (1d3+1+golden ice), Bite +7 (1d3+1+golden ice)

Initiative +1, Speed 30, AC 23, Fort Save +9, Reflex Save +4, Will Save +10

Crusader Maneuvers: Crusader’s Strike, Foehammer, Stone Vise, Battle Leader’s Charge, Tactical Strike
Crusader Stances: Martial Spirit
Swordsage Maneuvers: Drain Vitality, Rabid Wolf Strike, Hunter’s Sense, Claw at the Moon, Cloak of Deception, Clever Positioning
Swordsage Stances: Giant Killing Style
Warblade Maneuvers: Steel Wind, Emerald Razor, Disarming Strike
Warblade Stances: Wolverine Stance
Shadow Sun Ninja Maneuvers: Shadow Garrote

+6 exalted AC bonus
bonus feats at L1, 2, 4 and 6
Endure Elements
+1 deflection bonus to AC
Exalted Strike (+1 to attack and damage)
Sustenance (no need to eat or drink)

Morph spends most of his time in ‘Wolverine Stance’ and when a purple worm is found, he casts ‘Reist Energy: Acid’ on himself. He starts the fight by making a charging attack with ‘Battle Leader’s Charge’ to soften the worm up and put himself near the mouth. Delicious as he is, he is quickly bitten once and grappled - which he allows but can ignore enough due to his stance to make a full attack here - then chewed again and finally swallowed, a process which he has toughened himself up to survive with multiple applications of ‘Giant’s Toughness’, but he likes to use this time to heal a bit with ‘Vital Recovery’ by refreshing his Warblade maneuvers.

Once inside the stomach, he is automatically considered grappled, and also takes physical and acid damage - all of which he can negate with successive uses of ‘Iron Heart Surge’, starting with the physical damage, then the acid damage, and finally the grappled condition itself. Once that’s taken care of, Morph switches to ‘Martial Spirit Stance’ and to heal himself up as he attacks the worm from inside his stomach, living up to his family name of Gut punch by using his claws, his bite, and his unarmed strikes, fortified with martial strikes. He soon reaches the point where the stomach is perforated, but chooses to remain in the relative safety of the worm’s interior until the beast has been slain… whereupon he bites his way out and snarls at the world in draconic that this is another worm that has died at the hands of Xeno ‘Morph’ Gut Punch, finally scuttling off into the night to look for more.

Additionally, one of Morph’s personal goals is to attempt to use the ‘Clever Positioning’ strike to trade places with an enemy that has swallowed him - turning them inside out!

Book of Exalted Deeds
Complete Warrior:
Dragon Magazine 330
Dungeon Master’s Guide
Player’s Handbook
Player’s Handbook II
Races of the Dragon
Races of the Wild
Tome of Battle
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-01, 11:52 PM

Alright you freaks, I think that you all adequately punished each other.

I will post a reminder about the judging minimums tomorrow where i will indicate that you may supercede them in length if you want to during your judgment. However, I will also probably feel that it's necessary to remind you that you are not entitled to any expectations of the judges beyond the minimum.

Ripptor

2018-10-02, 12:08 AM

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-02, 12:10 AM

These are great! :smallbiggrin:

Not a lot of Commoner up there, after all.. It feels like this was mostly run as a Handicap round, having to take Commoner.

Do we submit our scores to the Chair, or just post them here?

PM to me. If you post your scores openly and early, it could have unforseen consequences.

Please try to make them clear with clever formatting tricks or something. I am worried that scores and multiple judgments and difficult entry names may conspire against my ease of use.

RaiKirah

2018-10-02, 12:20 AM

These are amazeballs and I can't wait to judge them!!!

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-02, 12:37 AM

https://78.media.tumblr.com/fbfb165cf820ce3e25bce96289174a08/tumblr_okk6ugkLQ41tsp14vo1_500.gif

RaiKirah

2018-10-02, 10:46 AM

Thank you for that gif; it just made this meeting way more tolerable :)

Zaq

2018-10-02, 02:33 PM

A kobold with Delicious? Do we all need to loudly proclaim allegiance to King Torg (ALL HAIL KING TORG!)?

Anyway, these are fantastic. I love that basically everyone found some unique and horrifying brand of cheese.

RaiKirah

2018-10-02, 02:52 PM

I love that basically everyone found some unique and horrifying brand of cheese.

I've got more cheese I want to talk about after judgement's done :p

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-02, 07:59 PM

Lets talk about a judging deadline.

Im thinking Oct 16th.

What says y'all?

RaiKirah

2018-10-02, 08:06 PM

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-02, 09:28 PM

Aye, that'll do :)

You mentioned something about the judging minimums earlier, and I have a question: are there maximums? I have a tendency to ramble when judging but could attempt to be more concise if that's the intended result.

Ramble all you want. Competitors here seem to love feedback...especially if they agree with it. I think that it's worth mentioning though that you and others shouldn't feel obligated to anything more than the minimum. If everyone judges for this comp in time, that's feedback from 4 terse judges, all of whom have at least some expertise and ....lets call it... excitement in the ingredient because they just used it themselves. So even if it's just the minimum, that's a great return of validation and feedback!

Darrin

2018-10-03, 07:43 AM

I should have submitted something. About two weeks from now, I'll have the perfect idea for this challenge.

I did kick around a couple not-so-perfect ideas, though. The first was reworking my Black Sparrow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21197986&postcount=91) concept for E6, as it was originally inspired by the Rubbish Arena Challenge. Commoner 1/Bard 4/Warlock 1 can summon a bat swarm, maintain concentration with sonorous hum, and create a 87th caster level sorcerer hivemind via Dark Speech. After that, it gets considerably fiddly, as you have to turn the commoner into a 1HD animal to include them in the hivemind, and then provide a permanent body. Fusion/astral seed felt like it was stretching E6 a little too far, so I kicked around using ice assassin or trap the soul with magic jar, but I'm still not entirely sure if I understand how Doc Roc's Commodore Guff trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?200516-3-x-I-have-brought-you-Devastation) works. It's probably doable, but the stench of Fromagery goes way past 11. The other problem was it would be extremely difficult to remain anonymous when most of the build was being very obviously stolen from a previous Iron Chef build.

My second idea was Commoner 1 taking Peasant Hat and Dead flaws: take off the hat, bird pecks your brain out, killing you... you're now qualified to take Savage Progression Ghost levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a), meaning you're now undead and thus immune to mind-control so the command effect no longer works. I needed two levels of Ghost for telekinetic thrust, and was trying to get into Master of the Unseen Hand, but just couldn't figure out a way to do it in E6. In retrospect, Commoner 1/Ghost 3/Eidolon 2 with some of those [Ghost] feats from Ghostwalk could have made a pretty strong build. I keep thinking that there are some hidden gems still to be dug out of Ghostwalk.

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-03, 04:20 PM

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-07, 07:05 PM

I have two judgments in!

RaiKirah

2018-10-07, 07:31 PM

Working on it! Probably late this week - should make the deadline no problem.

jdizzlean

2018-10-09, 07:50 PM

I'm on vacation until the 21st with limited internet access beyond my phone, so any responses/pm's/post's etc requiring my attention will be delayed

although there isn't any dispute process, but i'll miss the discussion side for a bit :)

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-12, 08:06 AM

3 days to go! I have two judgments in.

RaiKirah

2018-10-14, 05:53 PM

Judgements Submitted! I also have another build that I partially wrote up which I really want to post and talk about. I assume I should wait until after the dispute process, or should I just go for it?

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-14, 06:29 PM

I would wait a day if your idea will expose your identity for your dish. Otherwise, shoot away!

That's three out of five judgments.

This is just a heads up, It's about 30 hours until the end of the judging period.

RaiKirah

2018-10-14, 07:56 PM

Hmmmm. I should probably refrain from judging (in the off-chance folks can't figure out which is mine) to avoid giving any context clues. All I'll say is that Pig-Bond is weird.

Ripptor

2018-10-15, 09:31 AM

I submitted last night, but perhaps I got the deadline wrong? Is midnight on the 15th considered 00:00:00 am, or 24:00:00 pm?

In other words, are we done, or have we got another 14 hours yet? It's so, I may judge more, if I have the time...

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-15, 01:08 PM

Y'all got to midnight tonight

Ripptor

2018-10-15, 01:23 PM

Table, post-judging:

Gold
Silver
Bronze
Honorable Mention

Name
Alignment/Race
Class Stub
Score
Place
Chef

Keelie Brightfeather,
High Priestess of the Chicken God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23408569)
CG Hengeyokai, Sparrow
Commoner / Dragonfire Adept / Bard / Druid / Monk 2

User

Graelette, the
Dracoplaberrenecronoid Clerangeroguariansage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23408571)
NE Bugbear
Commoner / Ranger / Cleric / Fighter / SwordSage / Chameleon

User

Coach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23408572)
NG Forest Gnome
Gnome Bard 3 / Commoner 2 / Expert

User

Bad Farmer Gristle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23408575)
LE Kalashtar
Commoner / Animal / Psychic Warrior 2

User

Xeno ‘Morph’ Gut-Punch,
Kobold Protector (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23408578)
LG Kobold
Commoner / Duskblade / Crusader / Warblade / Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja

User

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-15, 11:06 PM

Alright you very sensually endowed participants, the moment that we have been waiting for will take place in about an hour to 24 hours from now depending on my sleepiness/play ethic.

Hold tight just a bit more, and we'll finally reach the conclusion of this most excellent experiment.

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-16, 01:08 PM

I'm posting the judgments in there unedited forms first, and then I'll make something a little more intuitive to read for the participants.

Keelie Brightfeather Score 18.5
What I liked most was the over the top chicken theme of this build.
Where I think more work was needed was in integrating all aspects of the build together, it seems a bit wonky.

A chicken spewing chicken who rides a war chicken is pretty nifty
Score 7

You don’t explicitly state it, but I think flurry of misses combined w/ a pecking attack is both thematic and hilarious.
Assuming things worked out the way you have them listed, your chicken horde would be a scary foe to face, until an aoe attack took half of them down, or someone jumped up on a chair to get out of their reach…
Score 5.5

You take a 2nd flaw when only 1 is allowed, so therefor also have an extra feat at 1st.
I’m not entirely sold on you being eligible to take Nymph’s Kiss. You have no backstory to support being pals w/ a fey.
In the PHB it states that you don’t need to meet the pre-reqs for 4 specific feats that you can choose as Monk bonus feats (it does not state you can take ANY feat free of pre-reqs, and neither does the entry in UA), therefor your grab for Animal Control is also illegal.
I’m also unsure whether you qualify to use Dragonfire Inspiration, which states: “if your feat or parent is not associated with one of these energy types, this feat has no effect for you.” This is probably something that could’ve been fixed with your fluff, but was also left out.
Score 3

You use the skill list, and arguably a near 0 BAB of the commoner, but otherwise could probably substitute anything else in for the 1 level of commoner you took. You are pretty “high magic” for a commoner, and are much more of a PC-ish character then I think was the concept of this round. (soulmelds, and 3 separate casting systems, 2 of which you don’t list out what you’re planning on using from them (druid/bard) spell wise)
Score 3

Graelette and a bunch of incomprehensible letters Score 14
What I liked most was all the attempts at some original attempts for rules interpretations.
what I think needs more work is actually making those rule attempts legal.

There’s a few things here that I didn’t know about, or hadn’t thought to combine together
Score 4.5

Necropolitain is a shameless power grab
I would say that you can only fly for 1 round, not the 5 you state you can due to the ruling from a 3.0 source. 1 round flight at half land speed is a weak reward for a feat expenditure.
Assuming all the other things worked as you’ve listed, this would be quite a powerhouse
Score 7.5

Age category cheese.
You take 2 flaws when only 1 is allowed, so you have an extra feat at 1st
Corpse (flaw) means you are already dead, so you can’t apply necropolitain. The template specifically states you apply it to ANY LIVING humanoid/monstrous humanoid. So your entire build is illegal.
On top of that, you’re using mummy rot to kill yourself (which probably happens before 3rd level in your background because you begin play afflicted with it, and it continues to affect you until you die from it, since you never get it removed), to which you then somehow get a very specific wizard to do the necro thing on you and bring you back as something entirely different. First off, when you die from mummy rot, your body turns to dust and blows away into nothing at the very first opportunity. You can’t then reincarnate nothing as it requires some physical element that the original body was composed of at the time of death. The dust you turn into wasn’t part of your original form, it’s a cause/effect of dying, so you’re doubly unable to do this.

You end up as NE, but what did you start at? An aasimar would have to be some kind of good. You glaze over some deeds done in your backstory, but I’m not sure you cover changing that many alignments.
You take a barbarian alternate class feature on a ranger level….
you take a druid ACF on a ranger level……..
you take a rogue acf on a ranger level………………..
I’ve never been a fan of using the ACF’s in DoTu for characters that aren’t drow. I don’t believe they should be available to everyone of every race
An enhanced undead wizard only grants those bonus’s when actually creating undead using the listed spells. Applying the necro template ACTS LIKE one of those spells for the effects, but the wiz isn’t casting those spells on you, so you do not gain the benefits from this.
You don’t list all your sources…
Finally, this is pretty far down the list of things since this is already illegal, but I don’t see how you get to gain 4 feats when you take the necro template in the first place….
Score 1

This is a necro/chameleon build, not a commoner build.
Score 1

Bad Farmer Gristle Score 29
What I liked best about this build was it really embraced the theme of both commoner and flaws.
What I think needs more work: making this relevant in some other way besides a bandit/monster raid on your home, how do you contribute to your community?

I like how you take your flaws and actually make them the point of your entire build.
Score 9

I rather like the use of chicken infested combined w/ delicious to have them all attack you so you can great cleave to your hearts content, even if it doesn’t come into play until epic 2nd.
Consecutive linked Synch’s is great, you’ve become a whirlwind of death
Score 7

You take 2 flaws when only 1 is allowed, and therefore have an extra feat at 1st level
Quick Draw requires a BAB of +1, which you don’t have when you take it
Score 6

I like that you make your weaknesses the point of the build, and that your choices are all made to augment them. A few minor elegance issues aside, this is clearly a commoner-ish build, and not a combatant. Granted in the right circumstances, this could easily turn into a PC.
Score 7

Xeno Morph Score 20.5
What I liked best for this build was the utter ludicrousity of a kobold charging into the maw of a thing that would devour it like a tiny morsel.

What I think needs more work, finding ways to apply to more then one thing, and of course having things actually work as intended.

A kobold that actually wants to be eaten, this is hilarious. Extra kudos for not doing a DWK.
Score 8

I have been looking at Touch of Golden Ice for a while now trying to find some way to work it into a build, you have succeeded far beyond what I was thinking of doing with it (partially). However, your targeted foe is a CR 12 beastie who will auto save vs the weak 14 dc of golden ice without even blinking. Also, golden ice only works on evil creatures, and a purple worm is neutral, much like most beasts.
Wolverine Stance is pure gravy.
The only weakness I see against your stated foe is that you have no way to counter the poison, which has a fairly high 25 Fort save.
VoP is as always a point of contention. By the very strictest of RAW, it’s only available to humans via the wording on page 30 of the BoED under bonus exalted feats, however no penalty this time for it. I think this was more of a blatant power grab then anything.
Score 4

Shadow Sun Ninja requires a BAB of 3, which you don’t have.
I’m conflicted as to the use of “Touch of the Shadow Sun” in conjunction with all these Exalted feats you’ve taken as to whether it would even work. You have 4-5 exalted feats online at the time you take SSN, meaning you shouldn’t have ANY dark aspects of your being left to utilize to channel negative energy.
Giant’s Toughness requires a Base FORT of +8, which you don’t have. This is especially hurtful as you take it 7x.

(( Your table is very hard to read, in the future please list totals as you go, not just what you’re getting, this was far more work then it should’ve been to understand what you’re getting at each level. I shouldn’t have to add everything up line by line to check legalities of all your items!!! ))
Score 6

I’m not sold on this being a commoner based build. Sure the revenge thing you’ve built into it is sort of nice, but this seems more like a level of ranger/foe hunter or the like for favored enemy purple worm. You take a lot of exalted feats that give you big bonus’s on Diplomacy, but do nothing with all that explicitly in your build. I don’t even see the point of Nimbus of Light, (I have an idea, but you didn’t spell it out, that its so the worms can pinpoint you in the darkness that much easier), plus that light aura kinda negates some of your investment into Hide.
Score 2.5

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-16, 01:09 PM

Judge #2, now with bonus explanations!

This is the first official time I'm judging, and only the second time I've participated in one of these, so... I'll be loosely using the same Criteria as the sole judge of my last competition, and using my build as a baseline to somewhat match, alongside the other available entries:

For this contest, Commoner would be a terrible balancing points for the 5/10 mark, having no 'thing' and no real way to go below such an awful starting point. Instead, I will be using my own submission as the 5/10 7/10 watermark, as I really have nothing else to go on.

Originality
The most subjective of the categories. This is where you are appealing to the judges: Their personal taste, sense of humor, and their boredom of common build archetypes.

Bonuses:

Interesting/funny background
Build aesthetics, and unexpected but working build decisions.
Build cohesion, between abilites/features/feats/story. I personally love when these synthesize well.

Penalties:

Well-known existing build-archetype (Ubercharger using the usual suspects of ubercharger feats)
Obvious Power dips, especially if they are non-cohesive or uninterseting to the final product

Power
Combat ability and Out-of-Combat utility are judged separately, with the higher score weighed more heavily. As I can only judge the ability of your build by your descriptions of their abilities and synergies, a poor outline of your build's typical usage and goals may be penalized here. In essence, I am judging how powerful this build would be if it were handed to me as-is and I had to play it for a session on my own.

Disputes for this category should display how you compare against the other submissions, and how specifically you would act to be awarded a higher score.

Elegance
This is where I judge clear build design / layouts and rules understanding / usage.

Bonuses:

Unexpected but working RAWery that doesn't make me roll my eyes.
Clarity of rules interpretations and unexpected build usages.

Penalties:

Build mistakes. Missing pre-requisites are 1 point each, other mistakes as determined.
Rules mistakes. Misreads are .5 point each, more if this causes the entire build to be impossible.
Overly convoluted RAWyery that requires too much suspension / DM permission to function.

Penalties will be larger if they cause the entire build to either not work as designed, or be impossible to put together as designed.

Use of SI
The usage and contribution of the Secret Ingredient to the overall build.

For this category, I first look at the way this build is unique compared to other builds made without the secret ingredient, if such a thing is even possible. Is the cornerstone of this build unique to this SI? What does it offer this build/archetype that other avenues do not? How much of the build is focused around taking advantage of the given SI, and it's uniqueness? Does the build have any thematic focus around the SI, and play up the uniqueness in flavor?

Originality

A Chicken Infested minionmancer is by far the most common Commoner build. While Keelie does keep them alive, this is still quite overdone as an archetype, even in that regard. The backstory is interesting, and I do appreciate the attempt to be 'part of the flock' as a different take. The only piece that really stands out mechanically is the Animal Control feat. Nymph's Kiss is an obvious power-up grab, the Bard song feats are the standard set, as well as the usual Handle Animal helpers.

2 / 10

Power
Incomprehensible Accent is a bit of a larger downside than one may think, here. Per the flaw description itself, a shared language does not allow you to be understood, and even magic such as Comprehend Languages fails to allow others to understand you verbally. This means that Speak with Animals will fail to allow you to be understood (Though you can understand them), that all communication with PCs and NPCs needs to be done via writing, and that Command Word and Spell Completion items (Wands, Scrolls) will be unusable for Keelie. The Surrogate Spellcasting feat does allow Keelie to cast spells, but "the feat does not permit the use of magic items" so these items are still all off the table.

For the rest, we assume that everything works as intended for this score.

Out of Combat: Keelie will have significant trouble communicating, even if she is really eloquent in writing. She will have difficulty alerting the others to danger, or sharing important information. She will also not be able to use magic items requiring speech, and will most likely spend all of her downtime using Handle Animal to prepare for the next combat.

In Combat, Keelie mostly relies on her Chicken Horde. I don't see a way for her to Breathe fire and Perform simultaneously, so it looks like she will be standing back and buffing continuously. She can command 20 1 HD chickens at a time, meaning she contributes 20 attacks per turn. With Song of the Heart, a Badge of Valor, and Words of Creation, they will each attack at +10 (Tiny creatures can't flank) for 1 plus +6d6 Fire damage. Assuming a target AC of 20, this means 10x22 Damage will hit, for 220 average Damage per round.

However, this is mostly Fire damage, which will be often resisted. Each Resist 5 reduces this by 50 damage, with Immunity reducing this to 10. Additionally, each of these birds have an AC of 14 and 1 HP, so this is very much a glass cannon strategy... and with no reach, each chicken will provoke an AoO when entering an opponent's square to attack, which will almost certainly kill the first few chickens. A single fireball will kill 4 Chickens per square, and any damage aura will cut right through the horde.

The Nova is strong, and repeatable, but fragile, with very little flexibility in encounter options. Out of combat utility is minimal, but socially useful if given the time to write everything down? Admittedly, I may be missing something here, with the reference to charades... the only rules I am aware of for communicating without a shared language are Voice of the City, which is missing here.

8 / 10

Elegance
One extra flaw (No penalty, matching the baseline). A shaped soulmeld should remain while in Animal form, as soulmelds explicitly say the remain shaped until you unshape them, and I see nothing counter-acting that.

However, this build relies on a lot of rules-bend/breaking... From the bending on Skill usage given the flaws (Bluff/Diplomacy/UMD without language), Speak with Animals while Incomprehensible, Epic Handle Animal checks, the attempt to ignore feat prerequisites via a very loose interpretation of an alternate Monk ability, relying on a spell effect that has been explicitly removed from the game, to attempting to use a feat ability that requires 'The ability to speak with it', which is still highly debatable.

2 / 10

Use of SI
Two Commoner Flaws, with the entire build centered around the one. The main focus is on the Bard buffing and the Control Animal abilities, which can be done by anyone and could (perhaps) be done with other non-chicken options, though the endless supply does help. Heavy thematic focus on the Chicken flaw, which is all-in and fun.

7 / 10

Originality
The attempt to make the best Commoner NPC possible is new for me, and alone among the other submissions. I like the focus on the down-to-earth day-to-day life, and the usage of magic for the mundane: Sports, teaching, talking, hardware and music. This really feels like someone who is trying to do the best for themselves in a small community setting.

9 / 10

Power
Coach shines Out-of-Combat, where his wide range of knowledge, ability to create whatever tools he needs, buy whatever he can't make himself, and earn money via teaching / composing / performing. Diplomacy will keep him in high regard without needing to be understood, and with the downtime he can write/draw the things he needs to be understood. A playbook to point at will help get things across quickly.

Not a lot of combat power, though sitting back and cheering on some defenders never hurts.

6 / 10

Elegance
One flaw (Bonus, the baseline uses two). Casting with Incomprehensible Accent is sketchy, as is Diplomacy for the same reasons, though it's explicitly used just to make people like you without understanding what it is Coach is saying, which feels like it is in the spirit of both.

I like the usage of floating chalkboards and written playbooks to assist him around his flaw.

7 / 10

Use of SI
Commoner with Commoner flaw, focusing on the Commoner skills and centered on the theme of living a robust Commoner life. All of the extra classes and feats are focused on improving the base of the build, with Expert building up the skills and Bard giving the slight boosting ability that exemplifies a high-school coach. This build forms a cohesive final product with a central theme.

9 / 10

Originality
I enjoyed the poem!

Mechanically, most of this build is a vanilla tripper, with the usual tripper feats and helpers, Psicrystals are the usual psionics boost, and Control Shape is a requirement for any afflicted. The only Surprise with the Cleave line is that it does not really fit/help this build.

Even the psionic powers are what we would expect here, with Expansion for tripping and the Linked Power Synchronicity abuse.

2 / 10

Power
For this portion, we will assume that the build is correct. (See Elegance) In addition, I will assume a +1 STR boost, a +2 STR item, and a +1 Halberd, even though it's not specifically listed.

This is a standard tripper build, missing some of the Strength required to make it more viable. 15' reach with a +5 to Hit and a +8 trip check, means that Gristle will have many opportunities, but will often fail to succeed. Expansion will help in that regard, but only for 4 rounds at a time, and he can only naturally do that 8x per day (4x Linked, to avoid standard action loss).

Even against a touch AC, a +5 means that over half of his trip attempts will fail to connect (Even with Expansion). If he connects, A +8 to trip means only an above average chance to succeed. On the ~25% chance that both of these do succeed, he gets a free attack, +5 vs. Prone AC, which is on average a 50% chance to Hit again. This is generously a 12.5% chance for Gristle to accomplish his build objective, per AoO (up to 3x per turn). This is only possible against visible opponents suceptible to being tripped, declining as the opponents increase in size (impossible against those 2+ sizes larger).

Once Gristle learns Knockdown, he can instead attempt to attack on an AoO, trip on 10+ damage, and attack again on a success. Attacking with a +5 against full AC means somewhere between a 25-5% chance of damage, for 1d10+4 (x3 vs Charge), meaning only a 50% chance of doing enough damage on a hit (Expansion ups this to 75%). The trip success rate and follow up rate are unchanged, meaning an average rate of less than 2% to land the follow up attack for his full routine.

Any attempt to power attack will drastically reduce these numbers, as his to-hit is already his main point of weakness. The attempt to use Chicken + Cleave confuses me: There is no difference between simply attacking a target once vs. attacking X chickens and then attacking the target once, except that you multiply your chance to miss, exponentially magnifying the main weakness of this build: Gristle has a straight 40% miss chance against basic chickens. Attacking two chickens before the target means he only has a 36% chance to even Cleave at the main target.

Extra standard actions via Link-Synch does allow him more attempts to pull off his routine, so this may work as a 'try, try again' build. However, this is heavily limited by his single digit PP reserve.

Defensively, Gristle is at a large disadvantage, with only 4HD giving him ~27 HP. On each 1/4 HP lost, Gristle has to succeed on a DC25 Control check or become a harmless sheep. With only a +13 modifier, he has a 55% chance of becoming dead weight on every 7+ damage taken. He will have only one chance to return, with a standard action DC20 check, with a 30% chance of failure... All in all, a bleak outcome should Gristle get hit, a likely scenario with his low AC, at (+2 Dex +2 NA -1 Deformed) 13+Armor.

Out of Combat, Gristle has nothing to offer other than a weak Handle Animal check, which will only be useful on herbivores due to his delicious flaw.

3 / 10

Elegance
One extra flaw (No penalty, matching the baseline).

It appears Gristle is presented using his Hybrid form, which is done incorrectly. Unlike most Lycanthropes, The Weresheep flaw clearly states that, 'Your hybrid and animal forms are that of a harmless sheep. When in Hybrid or animal form, you suffer the effects of the delicious flaw.' This would mean that Gristle only gets DR, Delicious, and physical stat changes when becoming a harmless sheep.

Gristle does not meet the pre-reqs for Quick Draw(1 BAB, though it could be shuffled to work on a different level), Great Cleave(4 BAB), Knock-Down(2 BAB), Practiced Manifester (Psicraft 4), or Psicrystal Containment(ML 3).

These all undercut the bedrock of the build: 8 Dex means no extra AoOs, and no forced attacks without Delicious. Additionally, -6 Dex and -4 Con lower his already concerning AC and HP, drastically reducing survivability.

1 / 10

Use of SI
The only thing the Commoner adds here is the Delicious flaw: He doesn't even use the base Commoner skill set. However, the Delicious flaw does allow him to try to be the battlefield controller Gristle aspires to become. The chicken adds nothing to the build.

4 / 10

Originality
I really enjoy the Xenomorph homage to Chest-Bursting, and the fun that it entails. I've seen Delicious used in many a tank build, but the goal of being actually swalloed and fighting your opponent from the inside out is great. The Vow of Poverty line is standard stuff, and taking toughness repeatedly is unusual, especially the much improved Giant's Toughness in E6.

7 / 10

Power
For this portion, we will assume that the build is correct. (See Elegance)

In most encounters, Morph's flaw will cause him to draw (almost?) all of the attention of the opponents. His Saves are fine(9/4/10), and his ~102 HP will help him tank for a while, but his 17 AC means over half of most attacks will land. Being surrounded by opponents puts Morph in a difficult position: Full attack with all four attacks, or use one of his many maneuvers? Golden Ice only affects the Evil-Aligned, but multiplying it puts the Full-Attack in favor, even with a low to-hit of +9/+7/+7/+7. Against all neutral and good opponents, he's looking at an average damage of 12.5 (3.5+3+3+3), if all of his attacks land.

Looking at his specific Niche, let's see how he would fare against a Purple Worm. Assuming he gets the drop due to his Perception skills, he uses Resist Acid in the Ambush round, and uses Battle Leader's Charge for 1d4+1+4 damage (Avg 7.5). The purple Worm full attacks, Stinging for 13 Damage plus Poison, against which Morph only has a 25% chance of shrugging off without reducing his damage output. Then, a Bite for 21 Damage and Improved Grab to become immediately grappled. Using Wolverine Stance, Morph full-attacks for (Avg 12.5) +16(4x4) Damage. Morph is Swallowed Whole, taking an additional ~21 Damage. At this point, Morph has 55 Damage, and the Worm 36 Damage, with double the HP (102 vs 200).

From here, Morph switches to Martial Spirit, trading 2HP for a -4 to hit, causing him to attack at +5 vs the Gizzrd's AC 17 (40% Chance of Success). Unable to full-attack, he uses a +2d6 damage maneuver for (Avg 10.5) Damage, healing 2 HP, taking ~21 damage. Morph uses Vital recovery and another +2d6 maneuver for (Avg 10.5) Damage, healing 9 HP, then taking ~21 damage. Morph has 86 Damage, and the Worm 57. This continues until Morph dies, unless he uses Iron Heart Surge to... become unswallowed(?), at which point the Worm will Bite him again, for the same ~21 Damage. I see no way for Morph to win this encounter alone.

If we add in some help, then Morph needs them to contribute another 150+ damage to kill the worm before he dies inside. However, while Morph is inside, he is no longer tanking hits for the rest of the party, essentially doubling the damage output of the Purple Worm by giving it a free crushing attack per turn.

This is one of the weakest combat builds in this line-up, especially for a combat focused submission.

Out-of-Combat, Hide/Listen/Spot will help him scout effectively, and Diplomacy will help him get around, especially as an impoverished character. His inability to use any and all magic items severely limits anything else he may aspire to do, however.

3 / 10

Elegance
I believe you misunderstand Initiator Level, which is class-dependant, in the same vein as Caster Level. Each class' Initiator level is equal to your class level, plus initiator prestige class levels, plus 1/2 all other class levels, rounded down. With one class of each, plus an initiator prestige class, Morph has an IL of 4 (1+1+2) in each of his three initiator classes, meaning he can only have at best 2nd level maneuvers and stances. This strips away Battle Leader's Charge, Foehammer, Tactical Strike, Stone Vise, Disarming Strike, Emerald Razor, Iron Heart Surge, Shadow Garrote, Giant Killing Style, and Wolverine Stance.

Unfortunately, these are important cornerstones of Morph's 'thing', severely reducing his ability to fight + grapple in the way he is built to do, though I don't believe Iron Heart Surge removes physical damage in the way that is implied (no duration) or allow you to ignore being grappled (no duration).

The multitude of mistakes and misrepresentations of the rules in this build are well below the watermark, and erode the very foundation it was allegedly built around.

1 / 10

Use of SI
The point of the build is to force an opponent to swallow you, for which Delicious is a perfect fit. The rest of the build is focused around surviving that where others would fail (Ignoring the illegality of the build), and trying not to be a monster's meal is a quintessential part of Commoner life. The VoP power grab seems out of place, especially for a character whose sole purpose is to out-murder an entire ecosystem of always neutral creatures... And he will need to set his sights lower than solo-ing a purple worm, so perhaps he can pick an Evil race of Swallowing monsters to pick on?

7 / 10

Final Thoughts

This round was Jam-Packed with build mistakes. I wish I had the time to offer advice on how to correctly rebuild the ones that even could be salvaged, but I'm already the last judge on the due date. I did enjoy reading and seeing what everyone was trying to do, and hope my explanations are clear for you to build correctly in future rounds!

Judging Disputes
Even though there is no official dispute process this time, I am very open to opinions on my methods, as I am very new to this! Constructive thoughts have the opportunity to change my mind/move me further in that direction, while not-so-constructive ones will usually make me dig my feet in. Just being honest.

For instance, my original baseline here was 5/10 around my build, but that returned such low numbers that I was unhappy with the results, and recalculated everything around a 7/10. This was a last-minute change, which I did as a knee-jerk reaction, and am quite interested in what everyone else code to do for judging power levels!

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-16, 01:14 PM

Judge #3, court is in session!

Hello! This has been my first time trying one of these threads out, and I’ve had fun! This is my first time judging one of these too, and I don’t have a ‘usual’ method, so, because I’m less interested in the fiddly bits like skill selection, and the other entries were great and fun to read, I’m starting on the high side and going from there. By doing it the same way for everyone, it should even out.

+ chicken!
- not really a chicken
+ Fire Breathing
- lots of magic items on wish list
- could have tried training the chickens up as warbeasts or something
+ flaws are integral to build
- no wild cohort?
+ fun last minute 'Hey wait!' character use of dragonfire inspiration

Originality: 9
Power: 8
Elegance: 7
Use of Ingredient: 9

- reliance on a 4th level druid spell ‘reincarnate’ at L1 while dead
+ interesting use of undead
- two flaws while negating flaw effects
+ powerful compared to the others
- relies on a specific character to turn him necropolitan to gain bonuses
+ nice ruling about reincarnated person not gaining LA or RHD
- iffy ruling about reincarnated person keeping former racial traits, “since it is no longer of its previous race” therefore, might not qualify for chameleon class.

Originality: 9
Power: Very Strong, much Damage: 9
Elegance: 5
Use of Ingredient: 7

+ 2 levels of commoner, and 1 of expert!
+ very good at coaching
+ equally good at anti-coaching
+ gnome!

Originality: 9
Power: 5
Elegance: 9
Use of Ingredient: 9

sheeple + XKCD!
+ Two flaws, but integral to build - plus, chicken infested and weresheep FTW
+ Chickens as cleave fodder!
- Chickens as cleave fodder wouldn’t give you any extra attacks against actual foes.
- no specifics of damage, etc., at all

Originality: 9
Power: 5
Elegance: 7
Use of Ingredient: 9

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-16, 01:18 PM

Judge 4 not, lest ye judge thine selves

Graelette:

Originality: 5
What can I say of Graelette? Aside from her awesome name (nicely done ‘scientific’ name design by the way) ends up as a weird gibbering monstrosity (gibbering optional to be fair) which I wasn’t particularly expecting. You also managed to make a character that has no coherent through-line in mechanical/class choices that still manages to feel coherent as a finished creature, which is pretty impressive. I find that Graelette is interesting though I can’t entirely put my finger on why I feel that way, which is itself part of the allure. Your background is a decent attempt to explain her physical (and I suppose alignment) changes, but doesn’t really tell me much of who this character is. Why does she come back and decide to be evil? The way you’ve written it seems like the thought process was something along the lines of: ‘I’m young again, this time I’m going to be evil,’ which doesn’t entirely track for me. Regardless, you had a lot of aspects to tie together, and you did a good job of doing that. There are some tired optimization staples here (Necropolitan and raise dead shenanigans, DMM Persist, Melee ACFs, etc.) that hurt your originality somewhat.

Power: 8
Predicated on all your shenanigans working you are a powerhouse. What I like most about this entry was how completely you cover multiple roles with this character. You are a fantastic front-line fighter as well as a good scout. You have a smattering of arcane or divine magic to supplement your mundane ways, though for the life of me I can’t figure out how you are proposing to cast higher than 2nd level spells. If you can point this out to me and it works in a way that’s not too RAWbnoxious you might end up with a perfect power score. You’ve done an excellent job showcasing your combat techniques and effectiveness, so I don’t feel the need to discuss them at length, just to agree with you that you’ve managed to create a monster here. Well done.

Elegance: 2.5
Here Graelette suffers rather a lot. Let’s start at the top: Venerable. Off all the shenanigans you pull, this one is the only one I can buy from a fluff perspective; there are plenty of old level 1 commoners. This doesn’t hurt you at all, and in fact I quite like. However, immediately following that is the Reincarnate cheese, which has several issues. The first and probably most difficult for you is that Mummy Rot – which you got from the Nagging Cough flaw and which could realistically be the reason you also have the Corpse flaw – causes the corpse to crumble to dust and float away. Reincarnate requires a physical body to be cast upon, and while some of the dust would probably suffice, it’s questionable. Secondly, Reincarnate is a level 4 spell, which in E6 is essentially the purview of the gods only (in the absence of extreme shenanigans (I seem to be stuck on that word today) it’s impossible to get 4th level spells). Therefore, it would require divine intervention to reincarnate a person in addition to the 1000gp cost (way above WBL). Thirdly, you specify the choice of new race, which is a 1% chance, and for a PC should be rolled randomly. These last two put Graelette firmly in the NPC realm, where she shines. Right, now let’s move on to the next bit: ACF chaining. The arcane practice of ACF chaining is interesting and fun, and in a high OP game I would probably allow it. However, ACFs are class specific, not class feature specific, and thus cannot be chained. The ACF checks first for class, then class feature availability. You will note that for all ACFs they specify which class(es) they apply to. Moving on to Necropolitan. I finally actually read through this template and the Ritual of Crucimigration, and it turns out you can’t take this template before level 3 because you flat out die to XP loss, who knew? Anyways, while all of the raise dead bits you use technically work, they again require DM fiat to happen, which is going to cost you on the Elegance Score. For a PC character, all of this is fairly inelegant. However, from a pure game mechanics mastery standpoint I quite enjoyed reading through this, which salvages your score somewhat. Also, lest I forget, you took 2 flaws, which is a demerit in itself.

Use of SI: 4
Your build cannot work without the level of Commoner (more specifically without the ‘Corpse’ flaw) and as such gets a benefit to the UoSI score. Like most of us, your build cannot actually be mistaken for a commoner, so you lose a little there. An area of this build that needed more attention was actually trying to use the Commoner class features, such as they are. You don’t make any real use of the only class feature the commoner has, as you more or less ignore its skill list (I’ll give you Spot and Sisten, but since you’re not a primary sneak you only get partial credit), and as a IUS and Natural Attacker you don’t take advantage of the singular weapon proficiency either.

Coach:

Originality: 7
I love your background, and having a number of friends who are teachers at various grade levels I found it be rather spot on in its depiction of Coach as a master of many trades in the context of the school. It’s a very good-natured take on what good teachers are to their students. Mechanically I was shocked to see more than one level of Commoner since your analysis of the class as entirely devoid of redeeming qualities is accurate and basically the thought process I went through. You get a nice Originality bump for building an actual Commoner, which I did not expect at all.

Power: 4
Coach is, sadly, not terribly powerful. Coach is a remarkably effective support character, but without folks to help out he’s a little anemic. You have good utility, both in and out of combat with Inspire Courage, Bardic Knowledge, 3rd level Bardic casting, and some good socials skills. You know quite a bit about everything, allowing you to fulfill the knowledge bank role quite well. All told you’re probably playable as a 5th party member (4th if not very high optimization), which is flat out astounding as a character with three NPC levels, two of them Commoner. An area of this build that needed more attention was your combat effectiveness. Despite being a roleplaying game, you kinda need to be able to fight, and on a battlefield I’m relatively certain everyone else here would eat you for lunch.

Elegance: 5
From what I can tell everything you have here is entirely rules legal. Your presentation of skills could be improved (please include all ranks spent at all levels, and indicate what was bought this level somehow), but I don’t see an issue with them. I’m not seeing any particularly elegant uses of rules, not anything that’s causing me to cringe, so you’re getting a fairly neutral score here. You did only use one flaw, so you escape getting a hit there.

Use of SI: 8
What I liked most about this entry was that you, Sir/Madam, actually took two levels of Commoner, and embraced the flavor of the class in making essentially an NPC character. Unlike every other build (my own included) if you presented this to a party without context they might in fact guess that it is a commoner. You get high marks on UoSI. Your selection of the Incomprehensible Accent flaw seems to have been largely for fluff purposes and to get a free feat since one flaw was stipulated as allowable, so I can’t give you a boost for it. You do use one of the Commoner class skills as a central component of your build (Craft) which nets you a little additional bump as well.

Bad Farmer Gristle:

Originality: 6
Farmer Gristle is a wonderful bit of characterization done very sparingly, and yet I feel quite well informed of the character and its personality. Really nicely crafted nursery rhyme construct with the poem, which helps unconsciously place him within the context of our fairy tale personages and monsters, which brings a lot of cultural gestalt to the understanding of Bad Former Gristle. I am really impressed. Other than that though, there’s not a whole lot that’s notable here from an originality standpoint. You’re a classic reach tripper build with some psionics action economy shenanigans and a neat combo with Chicken Infested (I do like that combo though to be fair). You do manage to get the ‘benefits’ of three Commoner Flaws and use them all to your advantage, which is pretty great too.

Power: 6.5
As I mentioned in your Originality section you are a classic reach tripper build, to which you have added some action economy improvements. What I liked most about this entry was the trick with using the Chicken Infested flaw to generate AoOs from attacking chickens. This was really neat. I assume you throw them at least 10’ away so when they walk through your reach you can then one-shot them for Cleave attacks against other foes you threaten. This is a nice method of improving upon your action economy for redirecting damage towards the foes you care about. From what I can tell you are an above average melee fighter. An area of this build that needed more attention was your out of combat options. You bring no off-role capability whatsoever, lacking any skills or psionics that have application outside of beating things to death. You’d probably be a lot of fun to play once initiative’s rolled, but otherwise your going to stand around doing not much of anything. The fact that you can force any meat-eating creature into attacking you at will means you’ll have your time to shine, but any non-vegetarian party members may not be amused with you.

Elegance: 4.5
Your build looks entirely rule legal to me. I love the combo with Chicken Infested, which is going to give you a slight bump. This is good, because it will be immediately offset by the mandatory demerit for taking a second flaw, as well as my slight distaste for your use of Skilled City Dweller. While there’s no RAW reason to not allow it, the character you’ve presented is a farmer with no social skills or interest, and has probably never been to a city. Tumble is hands down more useful than Ride, so I understand, but it feels inelegant to me in context.

Use of SI: 7
Your build only works with the Commoner level, since it gives you access to the Weresheep flaw around which you build. You also take and integrate the Chicken Infested flaw in your primary combat tactic as well as the Delicious quality. You cannot make this build without Commoner. That said, like most of the rest of us, no group of adventurers stumbling across you is going to guess that you’re a commoner, so you lose a little here. You use entirely class skills, and they all make sense for your mechanics and fluff.

Xeno ‘Morph’ Gut-Punch:

Originality: 6
A kobold who’s main schtick is to get swallowed and punch his way out? I’m sold! I quite enjoy the flavor of this guy. I was not expecting a VoP build this round, though considering that commoners are by definition poor maybe I should have. Mechanically you’re a fairly standard martial initiator with some extra tricks and a huge number of readied maneuvers which while being effective is not terribly original (in E6 initiator dips appear to be the rule rather than the exception). Nothing here particularly surprised me aside from the 7x Giant’s Toughness, but that works great for the stated tactics and so is entirely understandable.

Power: 6
Xeno “Morph” is quite good at what he does; surviving long enough in the gullet of some creature to punch his way out. You have a lot of combat versatility through a metric ton of Martial Manuevers, and do decent damage You don’t invest any resources into being able to do anything in particular in combat, which is fine because Martial Initiators do that all on their own, and being able to move an full attack, or trip folk, or any of the myriad other melee combos out there aren’t particularly useful once you’ve been swallowed. When not inside a creature you are remarkably tanky, and a decent combatant. Outside of combat it should be noted that you are not terribly adept. Your skills are individually decent, but are fairly isolated leaving you with some holes in what those skills are trying to address, which is an area of this build that needed more attention. You have Diplomacy, but not Bluff/Intimidate/Sense Motive. You have Hide but not Move Silently. Hunter’s Stance turns you into a decent tracker/scout, but only over distances, as you’ll probably be found out if you track something close by. All told, you are a primary melee combatant with decent damage, high survivability, and an intended combat style that is/can be very effective. Sadly, against anyone who can’t swallow a person whole, you are a martial initiate with only low-level maneuvers and a lot of HP, which while by no means bad, is fairly unremarkable.

Elegance: 4
From what I can tell everything in Xeno’s build is rules legal with the exception of some of your skill ranks. You seem to have under spent in some cases (level 1 most notably, and level 5 as well) and over spent in others (level 6 I believe). I can’t tell if you were saving points, or simply lost track of things. Regardless, the skills you do have are somewhat oddly spent, in that you dump large increases at somewhat random times (I suspect due to class skill restrictions). Additionally, in future, please make sure you note all your skills at each level, not just what you spent. Everything else seems fine, and you only used one flaw, so you don’t get hit there. What I liked most about this entry was the way you’ve worked to overcome the most serious drawback of the Delicious flaw (being swallowed whole). I think this is a flavorful and rather elegant method to turn a flaw into a strength, and that will slightly off-set your other issues.

Use of SI: 4.5
Xeno’s build is based around the Delicious flaw, and as such makes use of the Commoner class. That said, Purple Worms (and other monsters that are able to eat you) are basically going to do so regardless of whether you are supernaturally tasty or not. This build could have been made without the level in Commoner and functioned essentially the same, so you’re going to lose out on some points there. Your fluff coupled with the VoP build does make it possible to actually portray Xeno as a commoner turned folk hero, which helps you out a little bit. Commoner class skills are largely ignored, save for Listen and Spot, but since you aren’t a primary sneak they are picked up as the only decent skills, and not as a focus of the build and thus don’t really net you any UoSI benefit.

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-16, 01:23 PM

Not least, but last, judge 5.

Keelie - 21
Originality - 5: I appreciate your commitment to the bit, but mechanically the build seems to use pretty stock tactics to leverage your chicken-mancy apart from Animal Control (and see elegance), which keeps your score from being higher.
Power - 6: Still, it's hard to argue against a semi arbitrary number of chickens throwing d6s of fire damage around for you in E6, and the Druid and DFA dips are good enough on their own even if they're more thematic choices.
Elegance - 3: Monk Fighting Style feats do not work that way. It's abundantly clear in context that even a permissive reading would only allow you to choose the feat from a different Fighting Style for that level. This isn't as bad as it could be, as the most natural way to update Animal Control's Animal Friendship requirement for 3.5 would seem to me to be something like Charm Animal or the ability to cast 1st level Druid spells, which you have.
UoSI - 7: As I said earlier, I appreciate your commitment to the concept and you certainly leverage your chickens.

Originality - 4: I like that you're making an attempt to work around Nagging Cough and Corpse. Unfortunately, (apart from the Reincarnate shenanigans, sort of, and maybe being able to keep being a disease vector after going Necropolitan), none of it ends up amounting to more than a long roundabout way of rendering those flaws irrelevant, which is sort of the baseline of taking flaws with any degree of optimization. You also use a lot of stock optimization, including DMM Persist.
Power - 6: Still, the stock choices are stock for a reason. Your optimization is generally solid.
Elegance - 2: It's not clear to me that Corpse won't just kill you again when you're resurrected since you won't actually lose the flaw. Also, in addition to being a little cheesy, Reincarnate chicanery requires a 4th level spell not guaranteed to exist in E6.
UoSI - 4 - I guess Corpse sort of opens up Reincarnate tricks, but really it's not hard to make yourself dead to set up that sort of thing if such is your desire. Necropolitan to negate Mummy Rot downsides while still being able to spread it is something, but it seems to me that you're doing more to negate your flaws than to optimize them, in contrast with the other entrants.

Originality - 4: I like the character concept, but practically speaking, you're a pretty standard DFI Bard in most respects.
Power - 4: You make yourself a worse at things that a Bard would be normally expected to do by taking Incomprehensible Accent, which puts you a little below the baseline expected of DFI optimization.
Elegance - 7: You don't appear to have any rules issues.
UoSI - 3: Incomprehensible Accent is funny, but really only works against you.

Originality - 6: I like what you're going for with Delicious optimization.
Power - 3: Iron Heart Surge does not work that way. The things you're trying to surge away do not have a duration in rounds. You can full attack while being eaten and you have acid immunity and a bunch of HP, but can't shrug off being eaten to the degree you're suggesting. Your tactics are also very specific to your given choice of opponent.
Elegance - 6: Apart from the IHS thing, I don't see any glaring rules issues.
UoSI - 5: I appreciate the effort put in to Delicious optimization, but as mentioned in Power, I don't think it's entirely successful.

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-16, 01:59 PM

That's it for now, I'll update the chart in the wee hours of the morning and we'll determine our medalists.

Thank you all for your awesome entries and judgments.

Y'all may now discuss anything without fear of it affecting your scores

RaiKirah

2018-10-16, 02:26 PM

Thank you dare (and thank you for tallying up my scores - I completely forgot)!

Thanks to everyone else for your highly entertaining builds and for judging - I think this process works pretty well! It might benefit from some dispute process, but not sure - maybe only being allowed to dispute on behalf of builds not your own?

Discussion point: I'm curious what the community at large thinks about the second Monk bonus feat shenanigans I pulled for Keelie. While I 100% agree that it's not RAI, I think it might be RAW. The resulting question of whether I could actually use the ability is absolutely debatable.

When I get home this evening I'm going to post my secondary build: Big Bert, the Atomic Pig-Bomb. It's amused me enough I want to share.

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-16, 03:08 PM

WhamBamSam

2018-10-16, 03:18 PM

The monk feat switcheroo is cheesey and unlikely to be okayed by the average DM. OA has rules for bonus feats for monks, but none of them deviate from combat feats basically.

Weirdly enough, I feel like skill Focus diplomacy paired with a level of Marshal might be less cheesy.Marshal also doesn't work. The text about bonus feats not specifying a need to qualify refers to Monster/Racial bonus feats. The general rules on bonus feats from class levels do require that you qualify for them, barring some specific exemption like on Monk bonus feats.

RaiKirah

2018-10-16, 04:52 PM

Marshal also doesn't work. The text about bonus feats not specifying a need to qualify refers to Monster/Racial bonus feats. The general rules on bonus feats from class levels do require that you qualify for them, barring some specific exemption like on Monk bonus feats.

Yeah, the Monk one's the only truly prereq free version I know of.

The Fighting Styles Variant never specifies a list to chose from when it says you can pick a bonus feat when abandoning your style and monks don't have a bonus feat list, rather they specify which bonus feat(s) you choose. Neglecting to reference which you can choose (default monk, other fighting styles, etc.) leaves it open to the argument you can pick up any feat in the game. I absolutely would not allow this in an actual game.

Ripptor

2018-10-16, 06:06 PM

Updated Table:

Gold
Silver
Bronze
Honorable Mention

Name
Alignment/Race
Class Stub
Score
Place
Chef

Coach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23408572)
NG Forest Gnome
Gnome Bard 3 / Commoner 2 / Expert
105
1st
jdizzlean

Bad Farmer Gristle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23408575)
LE Kalashtar
Commoner / Animal / Psychic Warrior 2
93
2nd
WhamBamSam

Keelie Brightfeather,
High Priestess of the Chicken God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23408569)
CG Hengeyokai, Sparrow
Commoner / Dragonfire Adept / Bard / Druid / Monk 2
91.5
3rd
RaiKirah

Graelette, the
Dracoplaberrenecronoid Clerangeroguariansage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23408571)
NE Bugbear
Commoner / Ranger / Cleric / Fighter / SwordSage / Chameleon
79.5
4th
Ripptor

Xeno ‘Morph’ Gut-Punch,
Kobold Protector (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23408578)
LG Kobold
Commoner / Duskblade / Crusader / Warblade / Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja
79
5th
Bronk

RaiKirah

2018-10-16, 06:39 PM

On a different note, may I present:

Big Bert, The Atomic Pig-Bomb

Big Bert hated Tax Collectors. Every year they came and stole the food from off his table, and the yield of his crops. Well no more. This year, he thought while stroking the silky-smooth ears of his faithful pig, this year they’ll pay.

Geoffrey hated collecting taxes. Every year he accompanied the Collectors and had to stand by while folks got either sad and desperate, or desperate and angry. The current farmer they’d come to collect from was falling into the latter category. An enormous man with an enormous pig was in the process of becoming belligerently angry, and with an accent so thick as to be incomprehensible it was going to be difficult for the Collector to placate him enough to calm him down. All of a sudden, the tenor of shouting changed, and Geoffrey turned back just in time to catch a wave of heat and air as the already enormous farmer stretched and folded into some strange monstrosity, cries turning into angry bleats. Confusion turned to fear, and Geoffrey fled as increasingly violent waves of heat and displaced air emanated from what had once been a farmer, the landscape bursting into flame behind him, hoping against hope that he would be able to outrun whatever was happening back on the farm.

Big Bert, Atomic Pig-Bomb
Race: Illumian, Krau + any

Stub: Commoner 1/Druid 5
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Patron Deity: Silvanus
Flaws: Pig Bond, Incomprehensible Accent
ACFs: Druidic Avenger (Rage), Aspect of the Dragon

Abilities:
Minimums (18 STR, 13 CON, 14 WIS)
32 Point Buy: 18STR 8DEX 13CON 13INT 14WIS 8CHA
Lvl 4 +1 to STR

Feats:
1: Human Heritage
F1: Otherworldly (Celestial - Attended Birth)
F2: Hidden Talent (Compression)
3: Surrogate Spellcasting
6: Improved Sigil Krau

E1: Eschew Materials
E2: Extra Spell (Alter Self)
E3: Extra Spell (When Two Become One)
E4: Extra Spell (Enlarge Person)
E5: Craft Wonderous Item
E6: Initiate of Nature
E7: Willing Deformity
E8: Deformity (Obese)
E9: Natural Heavyweight
E10: Shape Soulmeld (Shedu Crown)

So, what’s going on here? This build came about because of my musings on the Commoner Flaw Pig Bond from Dragon Magazine #330. This flaw is weird. The relevant part is that the pig always weighs an amount equal to your maximum load, and whenever that increases so does the pig’s weight. When that decreases, well, you can no longer carry your pig, or in other words the pig cannot lose weight. Amongst other connotations this means you have an unlimited food supply. The second part of the Pig Bond flaw is that if you ever move away from your pig it turns into Orcus and kills you. Notably this doesn’t say anything about your pig still being alive, or even still being a pig. This led to my first thought; since I don’t care if the pig dies can I use it as an improvised weapon? Can I make a Hulking Hurler using this pig? Answer: no. You can’t meet the BAB prereq with a level of Commoner in E6, nor can you also fit in a method to still be with the pig when thrown (Crawling Eye or Disembodied Hand would work, as would a Dvati Twin with Fly holding onto the projectile). So, enough of that. Still, I was curious how heavy I could make the pig, and it turns out that you can make it very heavy, which led to my second thought about Pig Bond; what happens when this pig becomes magically heavier? Thus was Big Bert born.

In DnD 3.5e there is no pig creature that I could find (Pathfinder has one as a small creature, which adds a x8 modifier at the end btw), so we start with a Boar. Boars are medium creatures. In 3.5e, there’s no provision for increasing weight to impact a creature’s size (size increases increase weight, but it’s always causal from the size change), so theoretically the Pig will always be a Medium creature regardless of how much it weighs. Since a Medium Creature always fits into a 5’x5’ square, this means that the mass has nowhere to go (height of creatures is never to my knowledge constrained/called out, but for these purposes I’ve made the assumption that a Medium creature is constrained in a 5’ cube. If the height is unconstrained, then this math changes and you get a tower of pig approximately 5986’ high) and the pig’s mass gets compressed into its space. Now, by RAW, when we get a super-massive pig nothing at all happens, but in reality what happens when mass is compressed? Heat is generated. When enough heat is generated rapidly enough you get a shockwave (explosion). This leads us to the horrible liminal space of trying to marry DnD physics with real physics, and applying a liberal amount of Rule0 to figure out what happens. Since everything in DnD happens instantaneously, any change in carrying capacity is accompanied by an instantaneous change in weight of the pig, which then gives off heat. So we can reasonably expect our pig to do AOE heat damage and force effects whenever we get a big enough step change in carrying capacity. Let’s take a look at what we can do.

Order of Operations:
Step 0: Craft Spell Trap (Alter Self) (Hold in one hand)

Notes: A touch Magic Trap of Alter Self is a CR3 trap, and thus has a Craft (Trapmaking) DC of 20. With full ranks and unlimited time, we can easily craft this. A quick note on Extra Spell. There’s a lot of debate out there on whether or not Extra Spell works the way I have used it. The text of the feat in Complete Arcane includes a clause that states it can be used to get spells that a character can’t research, which to me makes it pretty clear you can cherry pick any spell in the game (I do think this is stupid, and generally use Wyrm Wizard instead, but this is E6).
Step 1: Cast Alter Self --> Bariaur

Notes: Otherworldly (which we took using the Celestial-Attended Birth option) allows us to use Alter Self into a Bariaur, a Large Quadruped, which increases our Carrying Capacity by 3.[/INDENT[
Step 2: Cast Enlarge Person --> Huge Size, +2 STR (size)
[INDENT]Notes: Human Heritage allows us to still count as a Humanoid so we can benefit from Enlarge Person. Increasing our size to Huge gives an additional x2 modifier, and the increase in Strength also increases our base carry capacity.
Step 3: Cast Bull's Strength --> +4 STR (Enhancement)

Notes: Increases base carry capacity.
Step 4: Trigger Aspect of the Dragon --> +4 STR (untyped)

Notes: We traded Wild Shape for Aspect of the Dragon, which is actually a bigger increase in STR than any available form at this level. Increases base carry capacity
Step 5: Rage --> +4 STR (untyped)

Notes: We traded our Animal Companion for Rage, which we can use to increase our STR. Increases base carry capacity.
Step 6: Dismiss Rage, Command Pig

Notes: Since the pig is by RAW intractable, we need to be able to Command it with the Initiate of Nature feat to be able to get it to do what we want. Since it works as Command Undead it is a mental command which gets around Incomprehensible Accent.
Step 7: Throw Spell Trap at Pig, make Pig change into Horse

Notes: We use a Move action to throw the Spell Trap (Alter Self) at the pig, and a Standard to Command it to turn into a Horse. We will need it to be a Horse so that it can be a legal target of When Two Become One.
Step 8: Dismiss Enlarge Person, Dismiss Alter Self (Bariaur)

Notes: I cannot recall if there’s an action cost to dismissing spells, so this may or may not count as a round.
Step 9: Mount Pig/Horse, Cast When Two Become One --> Obese makes Pig's weight increase x3

Notes: At this point it makes sense to note that the selections of Illumian and Improved Sigil (Krau) allow us to cast spells that count as 4th level, which is how we use Extra Spell to pick up the 3rd level spell When Two Become One. Mounting a willing creature (it’s under our Command) is a Move action, then use Standard to cast When Two Become One. This spell states that the combined creature shares feats, so the Pig/Horse gets the benefit of Deformity (Obese). While there’s no RAW statement to increase weight, the flavor text of this states that the creature weighs at least 3 times more, so we’re counting it.
Step 10: Cast Enlarge Person --> Weight x8

Notes: This one’s self-explanatory
11: Dismiss Enlarge Person, Cast Alter Self (Small Animal, Humanoid, or Outsider)

Notes: Using Alter Self into a small creature means that we fit in a 5’ cube again and increases our density by x8.
12: Use Compression

Notes: Hidden Talent gave us Compression, which reduces our size again, so we become Tiny and fit into a 2.5' cube further increasing our density by x8.

Math: Carrying Capacity
Base: 350x2=700 (STR = 19, Natural Heavyweight)
Step 1: 700x3=2100 (STR = 19, Large Quadruped, Natural Heavyweight)
Step 2: 920x6=5760 (STR = 21, Huge Quadruped, Natural Heavyweight)
Step 3: 1600x6=9600 (STR = 25, Huge Quadruped, Natural Heavyweight)
Step 4: 2800X6=16800 (STR = 29, Huge Quadruped, Natural Heavyweight)
Step 5: 4800X6=28800 (STR = 33, Huge Quadruped, Natural Heavyweight)
Step 6: No Change
Step 7: No Change
Step 8: No Change
Step 9: 28800x3=86400 (Obese x3)
Step 10: 691200 (Enlarge Person x8 weight)
Step 11: No Change
Step 12: No Change, Density increases x8

This comes to a final density of 44,236.8 lbs/ft^3 = 708,605.5 kg/m^3

Some context:
According to the Internet, Pork has a density of 36.94lbs/ft^3 = 591.72kg/m^3
Also according to the Internet, The Sun has a density of: 88.02 lbs/ft^3 = 1410 kg/m^3

Our final pig density is approximately 500 times that of the sun.

If we assume (WARNING: These are terrible assumptions!) that the pig is a compressible fluid roughly equivalent to water and that it stays as a fluid we can use our compressibility equations to approximate the final temperature of the pig as:
Givens: T1=273K, rho1=m1/v1=700lbs/125ft^3=09.7kg/m^3, rho2=708,605.4kg/m^3, gamma=1.4
T2 = T1x(rho2/rho1)^((gamma-1)/gamma) = 9,890.25K

Right about here is where I realized that to truly do this justice I would need to learn a whole lot more nuclear and high energy physics than I know, and that it would be significantly easier and just as entertaining to make an army of chickens riding chickens on fire.

So, why are these assumptions so bad? Mostly because we’ll quickly start phase-changing (take a look at this state chart for water) and that impacts the physics. Not to mention we’ll quickly also start getting into the realm of plasmas, which is another set of physics entirely. It is interesting to note that at these densities and temperature regimes we’ve almost certainly got slow fusion going on (the sun’s core has stable fusion of hydrogen at 160,000kg/m^3, which we eclipse. The temperature there is also at 15MK, which makes our earlier approximation highly suspect), and possibly have gotten the iron in the pig’s blood to critical mass for a fission event as well.

So, what really happens in game is entirely up to the DM. If I were modeling it I’d probably model each step function as a shock tube and stairstep my way up, holding to the (bad) assumption of a compressible fluid despite knowing that it falls apart relatively quickly. I’d then find the air temp behind each shock wave, and compare that to the burning temperature of various materials. In DnD, we know that being on regular fire does 1d6 points of damage a round. Paraffin fuels (which is what coats wool that hasn’t been heavily treated and would be prevalent in all wool clothing in a fantasy setting. Also candles.) burn around 2200K-2500K, a temperature we easily eclipse even with our bad assumptions. Additionally as stated there would almost certainly be shockwaves associated with the rapid heating, which could be modeled as bull rush attempts or even force damage. Bert has the Shedu Crown so as to be able to ignore the shockwaves, but I wasn’t able to make him immune to fire without spending 135K on a ring of Energy Immunity.

Bert is essentially a one-shot encounter, in that he only does his thing once before leaving an irradiated wasteland behind and being unable to move (assuming he survives). The whole schtick takes about a minute, so if the party figures out what’s going on they might be able to stop him before the devastation gets too bad.

So that’s Bert. Hope you enjoyed; I certainly did!

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-16, 09:05 PM

Congratulations Jdizzlean! You have won the Golden Flawed Commoner award.

Whambamsam and Raikirah! Congratulations on medalling!!!

I am thinking of using the ranked choice analysis in future competitions to address metagaming concerns with the tally it all up system. (Like Giving everyone artificially bad scores to drop them down and prop yourself up)

So what I did was take everyones judgments and apply the following template:

Total score of all categories for each entry was used to rank the builds from top to bottom with the highest score gaining the highest number of points and the lowest total score receiving the fewest points. Because this contest had 5 judges, that means that every entry received 4 judgments. So I distributed the point system this way.

1st = 4 points
2nd = 3 points
3rd = 2 points
4th = 1 point

Ties were just averaged. So if two people tied for first, I add all of the points for first and second place together and divide by 2 to get 3.5 points for each of them*.

I then put all of that into a table:

Raikirah
Ripptor
Jdizzlean
Bronk
WhamBS
total
Place

Keelie
-
3
2
4
4
13
1st

Graelette
1
-
1
1.5
1
4.5
5th

Coach
3.5
4
-
3
2
12.5
2nd

Xeno
2
1
3
-
3
9
4th

Gristle
3.5
2
4
1.5
-
11
3rd

From this, If I assume that y'all ran entirely on the gentleperson's agreement to be cool, we can see that our three medalists are the same, while we can see that their relative places on the medal winner's dias changes.

As I reflect, I think that this is a really good indicator that the ranked choice avoids big swings in raw score tallies affecting the outcome. If people consistently ranked a build higher in their choice matrix, that will show. Meanwhile, this shows that if the assumption that every entrant did their scout's-honor-best ranking of the builds, that a ranked choice system still selects for the same medal winners. That's pretty neat.

*The text in red is the thing that I think that we may need to change. What if three people tie?

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-16, 09:07 PM

Big Bert, The Atomic Pig-Bomb

I love your pig bomber. That looked like a lot of fun to think through.

RaiKirah

2018-10-16, 09:28 PM

I love your pig bomber. That looked like a lot of fun to think through.

It really, really was :D

Congratulations to Jdizzlean, and to the other contestants! These builds were a lot of fun, and I'm glad to have been a part of it!!

Zaq

2018-10-16, 09:46 PM

A forced-ranking system honestly makes sense on the face of it, given the limitations of the format.

Since this is intended to be kind of wild and experimental anyway, I say you should go for it. But I will freely admit that I don't plan on having the time to participate anytime soon.

WhamBamSam

2018-10-16, 10:12 PM

RaiKirah

2018-10-16, 10:34 PM

Changing size by Alter Self probably counts as a magical size increase which won't stack with Enlarge Person, and you can only go within one size category with Alter Self, so you can't shrink yourself down to small with one casting. If you can free up two feats for Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige you can double your weight again by showing Haagenti's sign.

I remember a post from a while back that created some manner of holy bomb capable of killing Orcus should he randomly appear before you. Since Pig Bond can bring Orcus to the Material on demand, that seemed like it would've been fun, but I couldn't remember how it worked and it felt wrong just digging up and copying someone else's idea.

You're probably right about the Alter Self and Enlarge Person stacking, which is a little sad. With regards to changing from large to small, I was intending to do it via dismissing Alter Self on the pig/Illumian hybrid (still bonded with When Two Become One) to stop being a horse, then casting it again to go from medium pig monstrosity to small animal. Binding a vestige is a good call, and probably would be worth dropping Willing Deformity and Deformity (Obese) to take advantage of, since it explicitly doubles weight, whereas Deformity (Obese) only modifies weight through flavor text.

I feel like I recall seeing that holy bomb as well, but can't recall where. That would have been pretty interesting as a build.

Did anyone else have weird Commoner Flaw interactions that they found but didn't build around?

WhamBamSam

2018-10-17, 07:35 AM

You're probably right about the Alter Self and Enlarge Person stacking, which is a little sad. With regards to changing from large to small, I was intending to do it via dismissing Alter Self on the pig/Illumian hybrid (still bonded with When Two Become One) to stop being a horse, then casting it again to go from medium pig monstrosity to small animal. Binding a vestige is a good call, and probably would be worth dropping Willing Deformity and Deformity (Obese) to take advantage of, since it explicitly doubles weight, whereas Deformity (Obese) only modifies weight through flavor text.

I feel like I recall seeing that holy bomb as well, but can't recall where. That would have been pretty interesting as a build. I was thinking that you'd do it in addition to Deformity (Obese). You probably don't even have to do D&D multiplication, so you should end up with six times the weight.

The more I think about it, the more I think it wasn't a Pig Bond discussion, but a different Orcus-summoning scenario that we're probably not supposed to talk about. Still, it would work with Pig Bond, so whatever. I think they just piled up a bunch of some manner of holy dust that does a lot of damage to Evil Outsiders.

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-17, 07:40 AM

But there is a planar Touchstone that has a higher order ability that can multiply a weight by five. I don't remember the name of it but the bill that I used it on was nurgle Helm Stone on the shadow Magic Prestige class that I forgot the name of in the Iron Chef competition.

Edit: Found it: Planar Touchstone (PlHB p.41): The Life Molds of Neumannus (PlHB p.179)

daremetoidareyo

2018-10-18, 12:30 AM

The new contest is up!

DRAGONWROUGHT KOBOLDS ARE TRUE DRAGONS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571705-Game-Warper-s-Optimization-Challenge-2-Dragonwrought-Kobolds-are-True-Dragons)

Thanks again for participating in this new challenge arena.

Bronk

2018-10-18, 07:24 AM

This was fun! Thanks for not ripping my little kobold apart too much! The others were fun to read too.

My original idea was to have a delicious kobold that was specialized servant to a dragon who found purple worms to be a delicacy... the dragon would basically be fishing for them, with the kobold as a lure. It was fun taking draconic heritage feats to protect myself from acid, but I couldn't make the rest work (I found no special rules for chains and I couldn't find RAW way to make the chain tough enough), plus it required a dragon to be around. Ah well!

Addressing some comments above:

The idea was that Morph would be a protector... being delicious lets him be swallowed preferentially over others.

Purple worms are his ultimate goal... he's been working up to them with lesser beasts, from hamsters to... giant space hamsters? :)

Looks like I made a glaring mistake there with the initiator levels... I was debating a few things at that point. I wanted Iron Heart Surge, but I also wanted the Giant's Toughness feat. Taking a number of one level dips let me hit the fort save prereq for that, and I slipped up on the IL situation. If I were to make a fix now, I'd just take 3 warblade levels and go with the lesser Dwarf's Toughness feat (the dream would have been all of that and the more thematic Dragon's Toughness feat).

In my build, the only important thing was to survive being swallowed and digested. To me, that meant lots of hit points to survive to the stomach, then use IHS to get rid of each damaging factor individually, rather than the whole 'being swallowed' thing. It works RAW, because each item is separate and has a round by round duration (and this is a TO excercise). Once in there, he can take his time with whatever piddly attacks he wants.

The skill selection was tough, I agree. Move Silently would have been nice in some circumstances, but I went with hide instead (you can still move and hide). My idea was that he usually wants to be found, but just have some warning first.

Sorry about the form, but I copied the ones from the link in the OP. They seemed to favor going level by level instead of adding things up as you go, so that's what I did too. Also, forms blow in this forum. It was interesting, but I don't think I'd bother with them again.

I don't think we need a dispute process, though. This is for fun, and I did have fun, so I'm good to go.

Thanks guys! I'll check the next one and see if I feel inspired again! Based on the last post there, signs point to yes.

Edit: I also missed a trick by not going Dragonwrought kobold and taking epic toughness instead...

jdizzlean

2018-10-21, 09:38 AM

with every competitor a judge, i also don't see the need for a dispute process. average scores and your calculated scoring seem to come out essentially the same, perhaps if the "popular" vote doesn't match w/ the calculated score, then that person should be the HM of the round? public discussion such as it was this round would suffice for any leftover sentiments/clarifications/justification.

thanks for the fun round, unsure whether I'll compete in the next one or not, I have no immediate inspiration sadly.