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View Full Version : DM Help Rokugan Magic lore question for a 3.5 D&D one shot



Luccan
2018-09-13, 01:54 AM
So, first off, this isn't a question about any rules in 3.5 D&D. Rather, this is a question about magic in the L5R setting and how it relates to some 3.5 classes (at least one of which OA claims is acceptable for use in Rokugan).

Are the sorcerer and adept classes actually lore friendly to Rokugan and if so how might they be limited (or are they even limited)? Would it be reasonable to assume only foreigners, Nezumi, and the odd Unicorn would use these classes? Peasants? Could members of the samurai caste use it without dishonoring themselves? Would people assume this power came from the Shadowlands or simply be wary of it as magic?

I haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer online, even searching the L5R wiki didn't lead me to a good decision on my own, and OA is the only book I have access to with Rokugan lore in it. I'm aware it's only a one shot and I can change the setting however I wish, but I am trying to be lore friendly and even if I choose to change it, I want to have an idea of what general things might change about the world.

Thanks for any response.

BWR
2018-09-13, 07:15 AM
So, first off, this isn't a question about any rules in 3.5 D&D. Rather, this is a question about magic in the L5R setting and how it relates to some 3.5 classes (at least one of which OA claims is acceptable for use in Rokugan).


You came to the right place. Possibly not the right forum, but who cares? Anyway, pick up a copy of "Magic of Rokugan" and "Way of the Shungenja" for more detailed answers.


Are the sorcerer and adept classes actually lore friendly to Rokugan and if so how might they be limited (or are they even limited)?


Not lore friendly at all. Human magic in the Emerald Empire basically works one of three ways: you call on elemental spirits (shugenja do this), you use the power of blood which inevitably attracts corrupted elemental spirits (kansen), and a sort of hybrid by calling on the kansen directly while using blood. Now most clans have secret variations on the first which push the boundaries of what is considered acceptable magic (as defined by the Phoenix), especially the Unicorn, but even so the basis remains the same. If you are really wedded to the idea of a sorcerer or adept, I suppose you could use them to model an extreme variant of a servant of the Nothing or Lying Darkness.


Would it be reasonable to assume only foreigners, Nezumi, and the odd Unicorn would use these classes? Peasants? Could members of the samurai caste use it without dishonoring themselves? Would people assume this power came from the Shadowlands or simply be wary of it as magic?



Foreigners have their own magic systems, which might possibly be modeled by sorcerers, but it's not a good fit. Burning Sands and Senpet casters are closer to shugenja in theory; the sha'ir is a good choice for these. Spirit shaman might work for the Ujik-hai or yobanjin shaman. In a pinch, sorcerers with a focus on elemental spells might work. The Ahsalan and the Rashari diviners could be done with sorcerers, and the Jackal necromancers work well with the sorcerer class, as long as they are focused on necromancy to the exclusion of most other forms of magic. Non-humans have their own magic which cannot be learned by humans, and only the most deranged of humans (from a Rokugani POV) would want to learn them. Nezumi Name magic requires an alien mindset, their shamans are tied to their Transcendents and won't answer humans, while naga pearl magic requires an Akashic connection.
But foreigners aren't really considered properly human - they are lower even than eta (if possible) and are Not Welcome At All in Rokugan, so anyone playing one would have to be in disguise (and found out almost immediately) or in hiding on the edges of the empire among the Unicorn. Foreigners are pretty much kill on sight.

Anonymouswizard
2018-09-13, 07:23 AM
Samurai can only be Shugenja, peasants might realistically have the Sorcerer or Adept class but would hide it because it would likely be dishonourable even for them and might even be illegal (I'm not well versed in the lore). Foreigners would have them, and probably wouldn't Face much in the way of negative consequences bar some negative reactions (but they're foreigners, they were going to get them anyway).

BWR
2018-09-13, 07:46 AM
Samurai can only be Shugenja, peasants might realistically have the Sorcerer or Adept class but would hide it because it would likely be dishonourable even for them and might even be illegal (I'm not well versed in the lore).

Ehhhh, not really. Since elemental and blood magic are the two ways of casting magic as default, all examples of peasant casters have been one of these. Blood magic in particular, because it is very easy to pick up - you don't have to be able to hear the voice of the kami, and grants quick power. While you can use a sorcerer or adept for this, the more important issue is that now you are a maho.tsukai. Secondly, any peasant found able to become a shugenja is immediately and quietly adopted into a shugenja family and given proper training and education, and kept quietly in the background so their lack of proper breeding doesn't shame the clan. Shugenja are too rare, even among the Phoenix, to let linger in peasanthood, and as they are holy priests they are certainly not punished for possessing the gift. Usually, they will be given some form of cover story like 'obviously the by-blow of some passing samurai' or something of the sort to explain why peasant stock gave rise to something as holy and useful as a shuggie.

Foreginers have already been dealt with.

Luccan
2018-09-13, 02:04 PM
-snip-

Hmm, I was worried that would be the answer. Rokugan is really cool, but I wanted to provide a few more options for the PCs. I'll take a look at those books if I can find them, thanks for the suggestion. I guess if I want spellcasters that aren't Shugenja I'll have to figure out where Rokugain't varies in its history. Thanks for the in-depth response, though.

BWR
2018-09-13, 02:20 PM
I love Rokugan but it is not a setting that accepts much freedom, individuality or variety, at least not compared to what people are used to from most D&D games.

Faily
2018-09-13, 02:23 PM
Sorcerers or Adepts fall squarely into gaijin magic (which is illegal in Rokugan, FYI). Foreigners are pretty much "kill on sight" in most of the Empire, with only Mantis, Unicorn, and Tortoise having dealings with them. The Yobanjin to the north aren't quite as bad as other gaijin, but still looked down on (think Ainu in ancient Japan. Yeah, that bad).

Sorcerers and Adepts could work well for magic-users in the Burning Sands (called Sahirs), or the Yobanjin shaman, but again, this is not the kind of magic you want to be seen practicing in the Emerald Empire. The "magic" of shugenja is divine, and is centered around praying to the elemental spirits - shugenja use ofuda, sacred prayer scrolls, to read the prayers to the kami to "cast spells".

Rokugan is a highly rigid and traditional society, so if you want it by the book - a Sorcerer would very quickly end up dead the moment they meet someone with more than the most basic understanding of how shugenja-magic works.


Also, yes, peasant-shugenja are by default "samurai" because Rokugani do not believe that those of a lower caste like heimin and eta can be blessed with the ability to commune with the kami. Such children that display those talents can often find themselves adopted into low-ranking samurai-families (because clearly they're the child of a samurai and a lower-caste person by Rokugani logic), or at least are acknowledged as ronin.

Max_Killjoy
2018-09-13, 03:45 PM
The insular and prejudiced nature of Rokugani society varies a bit between game incarnations and eras. I get the sense that the edition that overlapped with D&D really, really played up the xenophobia and rigidity.

The 4th edition would seem to leave such things a little bit more open-ended and GM-dependent.

Otomodachi
2018-09-13, 10:41 PM
The insular and prejudiced nature of Rokugani society varies a bit between game incarnations and eras. I get the sense that the edition that overlapped with D&D really, really played up the xenophobia and rigidity.

The 4th edition would seem to leave such things a little bit more open-ended and GM-dependent.

I'm sure this is true, but as someone that started L5R back in 1st edition I can also say with some assurance that the insularity and prejudice and definitely meant to be part of the setting.

That said, the power of RPGs is to make your own game!

OP, if you really want to include a different option for casters, maybe do some research into the Onnyo tradition of Japan. I'm sure other asian cultures had similar traditions but the Onnyo one is the only one I really know even a tiny bit about. It's less about supplicating the kami and more about a system of rules and formulae that sort of FORCE them to do what you want.

If you wanted to include this in your Rokugan, I would consider having it be a holdover tradition from the pre-Hantei era, be practiced mostly in isolated mountainous locations, and be simultaneously scholarly and also open to heimen and eta, and therefore intrinsically revolutionary.

gkathellar
2018-09-14, 08:41 AM
OP, if you really want to include a different option for casters, maybe do some research into the Onnyo tradition of Japan. I'm sure other asian cultures had similar traditions but the Onnyo one is the only one I really know even a tiny bit about. It's less about supplicating the kami and more about a system of rules and formulae that sort of FORCE them to do what you want.

If you wanted to include this in your Rokugan, I would consider having it be a holdover tradition from the pre-Hantei era, be practiced mostly in isolated mountainous locations, and be simultaneously scholarly and also open to heimen and eta, and therefore intrinsically revolutionary.

It could work, but it's not a great fit.

Onmyodo, literally "Yin-Yang Way," is a syncretic Shinto-Taoist magical tradition rooted pretty consistently in Chinese cosmology and imagery - for instance, it uses the Five Phases rather than the Four Plus One Elements. That said, there's really no clear demarcation between Shinto, Buddhist, or Taoist magical traditions in Japanese history, and a lot of their imagery is inextricable (and already well-represented in the shugenja, who are don't map well to any real-world spiritual or religious tradition, not even actual shugendo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shugend%C5%8D)).

RedMage125
2018-09-14, 09:24 AM
In a pinch, sorcerers with a focus on elemental spells might work.

This is what I was thinking. Someone blessed by one of the Elemental Dragons, but not quite an Oracle, could be represented mechanically as a sorcerer.

Otomodachi
2018-09-14, 02:44 PM
It could work, but it's not a great fit.

Onmyodo, literally "Yin-Yang Way," is a syncretic Shinto-Taoist magical tradition rooted pretty consistently in Chinese cosmology and imagery - for instance, it uses the Five Phases rather than the Four Plus One Elements. That said, there's really no clear demarcation between Shinto, Buddhist, or Taoist magical traditions in Japanese history, and a lot of their imagery is inextricable (and already well-represented in the shugenja, who are don't map well to any real-world spiritual or religious tradition, not even actual shugendo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shugend%C5%8D)).

Uh, ok, so very much something that could be a tradition handed down from Shinsei, or Uikku, or even an outgrowth of the Asako teachings melded with pre-Hantei practices. Because there were humans in Rokugan before the Kami fell.

Luccan
2018-09-15, 01:36 AM
Uh, ok, so very much something that could be a tradition handed down from Shinsei, or Uikku, or even an outgrowth of the Asako teachings melded with pre-Hantei practices. Because there were humans in Rokugan before the Kami fell.

Based on what I know of the setting, this seems the easiest way to do it. All are respected enough. Perhaps Sorcerers are the few gifted with an innate understanding of the Path of Man?

Otomodachi
2018-09-15, 03:16 PM
Based on what I know of the setting, this seems the easiest way to do it. All are respected enough. Perhaps Sorcerers are the few gifted with an innate understanding of the Path of Man?

Sure, man. You can justify it any way you want. There's not much inherent in the idea of a spontaneous spell-caster that is going to demolish the Rokugan setting, you just need to take a second to decide how you want to justify it is all. :)