Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bickering

[Cheesegear]

Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground

This OP is currently full of placeholder answers. Check back in a week.

I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy a Start Collecting! box and your favourite Index.
Or, if you're specifically into Primaris Marines or Death Guard, GW has conveniently set up a number of 'beginner boxes' to get you started.

What's Dark Imperium?
Dark Imperium contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.

Comments on Dark Imperium forces.

How much does it cost?
Placeholder Answer.

Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.

Okay, I've got everything. What next?
Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army. Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.

However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.

How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
The recommended minimum is 750.
However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level. While you're at it, here's How to write an army list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8702512&postcount=1358)

As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1000 Points with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.

Comments on Power Rating.

What's the difference between Power Rating and Points Cost?
...A lot.

I did what you said and I still lost. What gives? :smallfurious:
First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.

Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.

Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.

And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.

Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.

If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.

Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.

How much terrain do I need?
Anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want at least anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board. Don't forget that not all Terrain is 'equal', and you will definitely want a few pieces of terrain that block Line of Sight.

I don't like using Unique Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
Your opponents probably don't. Unique Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Unique Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Unique Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.

However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Especially if you play Imperium, Chaos or Aeldari. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.

So which Allies should I pick?
Depends on your army, and what units you already have. Ask in the thread.

I can't paint.
Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20355942&postcount=1425). :smallwink:

But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.

Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you. Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8722344&postcount=1421)

Is there such a thing as a 'Bad' Codex?
Not exactly. There are certainly bad, individual units. But, on the whole, every Faction is playable. However, you must remember that Allies are an intended part of the game - even if you, personally don't like them. If your Faction's entire army list is lacking in a certain area, you may have to consider whether or not it was intended to be that way, and you will have to consider whether or not to bring Allies into your army.

Helpful Army Building Guides
Adeptus Custodes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23089844&postcount=368)
Adeptus Mechanicus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23212682&postcount=799)
Astra Militarum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23229442&postcount=860) by LeSwordfish
Chaos Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22323358&postcount=680) by LeSwordfish
Craftworlds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23102387&postcount=394) by Forum Explorer
Dark Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22682254&postcount=1287)
Death Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425277&postcount=1268) by LeSwordfish
Deathwatch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23067706&postcount=257)
Drukhari (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22979092&postcount=1056) by Gauntlet
Grey Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22290159&postcount=518)
Necrons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22958139&postcount=936) by Requizen
Space Marines Part I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23046630&postcount=154) - Part II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23046633&postcount=155)

Building on a Budget
Adeptus Mechanicus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22952114&postcount=902) Outdated
Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22611520&postcount=1068)

30K/Heresy Guides
30K Relics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18500576&postcount=1350) by Vaz
Solar Auxilia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471119&postcount=1234) by Vaz
Taghmata Omnissiah Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18522411&postcount=1421) by Vaz
Questoris Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471124&postcount=1235) by Vaz

30K/Legion Rules
Legion Crusade Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17232158&postcount=1308)
Legion Special Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17243267&postcount=1322)
The Primarchs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17250802&postcount=1330)

Previous Threads
* Warhammer 40K Tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29297)
* II: Tactics for the Tactics God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101608)
* III: Hats for the Hat Throne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119333)
* IV: The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133984)
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141538)
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149084)
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156779)
* VIII: You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165820)
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175990)
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184538)
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193025)
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199750)
* XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208838)
* XIV: "Pray for 6s!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221858)
* XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232277)
* XV: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248423)
* XVII: "Tyranids Don't Have Friends." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265917)
* XVIII: "Fortune Favours the Careless!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282842)
* XIX: Understand the Gravity of the Situation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303801-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XIX-quot-Understand-the-gravity-of-the-situation-quot)
* XX: Barrage is the new Precision Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341687-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XX-quot-Barrage-is-the-new-Precision-Shot-quot)
* XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?359820-Warhammer-40k-Tabletop-XXI-Preferred-Enemy-(Dice))
* XXII: I C'Tan Has Cheese? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388399-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXII-I-C-Tan-Has-Cheese#post18535364)
* XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411374-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIII-I-Do-Not-Like-Green-Tides-and-Hann)
* XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444969-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIV-And-They-Shall-Know-No-Fluff&p=19863366&viewfull=1#post19863366)
* XXV: Friends Are Better Than Wraithknights
* XXVI: Frequently Asked, Frequently Ignored (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476885-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXV-Friends-Are-Better-Than-Wraithknights)
* XXVII: Tyranids Finally Found a Friend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503224-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXVII-Tyranids-Finally-Found-A-Friend)
* XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?509492-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXVIII-Drasius-Can-t-Have-Nice-Things)
* XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517336-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIX-Ro-Ro-Ro-Your-Boute)
* XXX: Imperium After Dark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?525424-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXX-Imperium-After-Dark)
* XXXI: Haters Gonna Burn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?530992-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXXI-Haters-Gonna-Burn)
* XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?538281-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXXII-I-Got-99-Guardsmen-and-Morale-Killed-One)
* XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?546769-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXIII-Only-in-Nerf-Does-Duty-End)
* XXXIV: Situation Normal, All FAQ'd Up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?557261-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXIV-Situation-Normal-All-FAQ-d-Up)

Here's a bunch of Battle Reports (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22597012&postcount=924) for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.

[Cheesegear]

Last Time in the Eternal Darkness...

Kill Team has been out for a while, with one Major Tournament under its belt. Time to start breaking it.
Rumour says that the next major change to the game is that each Faction in your army can only use its own Command Points. This will severely impact armies that don't use 2+ Battalions of the same Faction, and/or severely impact those Factions that can't or don't regularly or easily make Brigade Detachments.

...Welcome Back to the Darkness.

[bluntpencil]

I'm looking forward to seeing the FAQ. I reckon Guard brigades stay in, Slamguinius (and Blood Angels) will suck. Eldar continue to be broken.

It won't affect me much - I currently switch between solo Deathwatch, solo Tallarn (mostly tanks), and Tallarn with a Deathwatch Patrol. No Brigades for me.

I managed to smash a Guard brigade last game I played, but it wasn't the broken Straken + Knight + Slamguinius vomit that often comes up in tournaments.

[Brookshw]

Bookmarked.

[Tome]

Unless the errata has some Tau buffs, it won't really affect me.

[Blackhawk748]

Unless the errata has some Tau buffs, it won't really affect me.

Same here. Ad Mech are just gonna keep doing their thing and my other armies don't have Codexes

[Turalisj]

Unless the errata has some Tau buffs, it won't really affect me.

I'm done with Tau. Love the models, will never play them again in 8e until they get a new codex.

Admech fills that shooty army itch without the bad rules.

[Cheesegear]

Imperium
Space Marines: *shrug* They got Guilliman and Adept of the Codex...And also all of their Stratagems are basically terrible. So it doesn't really matter. Ultimately there isn't really any change.

Blood Angels: ...Are in significant trouble.

Dark Angels: Of the Astartes armies, they have the best Troops anyway. Making 2+ Battalions, plus Azrael, shouldn't be a problem.

Deathwatch: Their Troops are good. It's a shame they don't have good HQs. Certainly not 4 of them.

Grey Knights: Anyone who is taking 2+ Battalions of Grey Knights is in for a bad time, even before Command Points are factored in.

Space Wolves: Nobody cares. Move along.

Astra Militarum: Can make Brigades and thus will never not be strong until there's some sort of rule that nerfs hordes. Basically the real winner, here. Because Guard were strong before the nerf, and the nerf that could happen...Doesn't affect them. Way to fail, GW.

Ministorum/Sororitas: Their Troops are good. Their HQs are good. They don't have a Codex, so they don't have any Stratagems worth doing. So who cares?

Adeptus Custodes: Outrider Detachments and Supreme Commands of Jetbikes are dead. However, we have seen a number of lists feature in major tournaments because seriously, Custodes Troops are really, really good. Nothing wrong with making a Custodes Battalion. Two, however, is a serious problem.

AdMech: Keep making dual Battalions. Nothing has changed.

Imperial Knights: Solitary Knights basically just died. As did pretty much any ability to use Exalted Court and/or Heirlooms of the Household.

Chaos
Chaos Space Marines: Like Space Marines, it's one of the original four Codecies, which means all the Stratagems are basically garbage so who cares? As long as you have points for Veterans of the Long War once a turn, and then maybe Tide of Traitors, and then Infiltrate a few units...Yeah. You'll be fine.

Death Guard: Run Poxwalkers. Who cares? Keep doing that.

Thousand Sons: Thousand Sons don't really rely on Stratagems, so Supreme Commands will still be a thing.

Daemons: Sad face.

Aeldari Filth
Craftworlds: My guess is Ynnari will still count as Craftworlds for all intents and purposes. So no changes. However not spamming Agents of Vect anymore is kind of a kick in the junk. So...Anything that makes Craftworld players sad is alright by me!

Drukhari: Triple Drukari Detachments are already topping Tournaments and destroying the casual meta as we type.

Harlequins: Harlequins don't rely on Stratagems to win games. So Outriders of a bajillion Jetbikes will still remain a thing that exists next to double Battalions of Drukhari.

Tyranids
Tyranids: Running double Battalions is easy, and good.

Genestealer Cults: No Codex yet. Only one Stratagem worth having. So just run a Supreme Command, roll a '6' and win the game.

Xenos Nobody Cares About
Orks / Necrons / T'au: Nothing happens.

[9mm]

Imperium
Space Marines: *shrug* They got Guilliman and Adept of the Codex...And also all of their Stratagems are basically terrible. So it doesn't really matter. Ultimately there isn't really any change.

Blood Angels: ...Are in significant trouble.

Dark Angels: Of the Astartes armies, they have the best Troops anyway. Making 2+ Battalions, plus Azrael, shouldn't be a problem.

Deathwatch: Their Troops are good. It's a shame they don't have good HQs. Certainly not 4 of them.

Grey Knights: Anyone who is taking 2+ Battalions of Grey Knights is in for a bad time, even before Command Points are factored in.

Space Wolves: Nobody cares. Move along.

Astra Militarum: Can make Brigades and thus will never not be strong until there's some sort of rule that nerfs hordes. Basically the real winner, here. Because Guard were strong before the nerf, and the nerf that could happen...Doesn't affect them. Way to fail, GW.

Ministorum/Sororitas: Their Troops are good. Their HQs are good. They don't have a Codex, so they don't have any Stratagems worth doing. So who cares?

Adeptus Custodes: Outrider Detachments and Supreme Commands of Jetbikes are dead. However, we have seen a number of lists feature in major tournaments because seriously, Custodes Troops are really, really good. Nothing wrong with making a Custodes Battalion. Two, however, is a serious problem.

AdMech: Keep making dual Battalions. Nothing has changed.

Imperial Knights: Solitary Knights basically just died. As did pretty much any ability to use Exalted Court and/or Heirlooms of the Household.

Chaos
Chaos Space Marines: Like Space Marines, it's one of the original four Codecies, which means all the Stratagems are basically garbage so who cares? As long as you have points for Veterans of the Long War once a turn, and then maybe Tide of Traitors, and then Infiltrate a few units...Yeah. You'll be fine.

Death Guard: Run Poxwalkers. Who cares? Keep doing that.

Thousand Sons: Thousand Sons don't really rely on Stratagems, so Supreme Commands will still be a thing.

Daemons: Sad face.

Aeldari Filth
Craftworlds: My guess is Ynnari will still count as Craftworlds for all intents and purposes. So no changes. However not spamming Agents of Vect anymore is kind of a kick in the junk. So...Anything that makes Craftworld players sad is alright by me!

Drukhari: Triple Drukari Detachments are already topping Tournaments and destroying the casual meta as we type.

Harlequins: Harlequins don't rely on Stratagems to win games. So Outriders of a bajillion Jetbikes will still remain a thing that exists next to double Battalions of Drukhari.

Tyranids
Tyranids: Running double Battalions is easy, and good.

Genestealer Cults: No Codex yet. Only one Stratagem worth having. So just run a Supreme Command, roll a '6' and win the game.

Xenos Nobody Cares About
Orks / Necrons / T'au: Nothing happens.

Is this based on the rumors, or has the FAQ dropped and pages aren't updated yet?

[Cheesegear]

Is this based on the rumors

Affirmative.

[Drasius]

I feel like we've missed an opportunity here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/09/13/the-game-you-never-knew-you-needed/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40K&utm_content=40KMonopolySep13

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/40kMonopoly-Sep13-Board4he.jpg

[DataNinja]

It always disappoints me when the corner spaces are left regular Monopoly. Could've had "The Black Ship" for Jail, "Terran Pilgrimage" for Free Parking, "The Inquisition" for Go To Jail and "Standard Issue Rations" for Start. Or something. I've seen them changed before, I know it's allowed!

[Ornithologist]

My main army is a 2 battalions of BA only.

I'm undecided on how much nerf I am going to be stuck with.

For sure, I will not get any buffs.

On the plus side, I am waiting for the ork Codex to get mine ot of storage. Thoses should be interesting.

[Renegade Paladin]

My army is, always has been, and always will be primary Imperial Guard. It's good to be back on top. :smallbiggrin:

[9mm]

so question; with the following kill team:


++ Kill Team List (Adeptus Astartes) [98pts] ++

+ Configuration +

List Configuration: Matched Play: Kill Team

+ Leader +

Intercessor Sergeant [18pts]: Bolt rifle, Leader, Power sword

+ Specialists +

Intercessor [15pts]: Bolt rifle, Comms

Reiver [17pts]: Combat knife, Grapnel Launcher, Veteran

Reiver Sergeant [18pts]: Combat, Combat knife, Grapnel Launcher, Heavy bolt pistol

+ Non-specialists +

Intercessor [15pts]: Bolt rifle

Intercessor [15pts]: Bolt rifle

++ Total: [98pts] ++


Would you prefer a Veteran or Scout?

[Corsair14]

Maybe we will finally see an end to endless Deathcompanies and over and over repeats of Net list Slamguinius mixed in with every other army.

[Turalisj]

Maybe we will finally see an end to endless Deathcompanies and over and over repeats of Net list Slamguinius mixed in with every other army.

Netlisting. Will. Happen. When. There. Are. Only. A handful. Of. Good. Tactics.

How many times can that be repeated?

[Cheesegear]

Maybe we will finally see an end to endless Deathcompanies

No we wont. Death Company will replace Blood Angel Captains because they don't need Death Visions to work and do exactly the same thing for at least 2 CPs less.
You don't need to Honour the Chapter if you have five times as many Thunder Hammers.

We will see more Death Companies. Not less.


and over and over repeats of Net list Slamguinius mixed in with every other army.

Remove top choice, go to second choice.

Blood Angel Captains will be fair useless. They will be replaced with The Sanguinor and/or Sang Priests with Jump Packs and/or Lemartes and life will go on.
No more Knight Castellans means that 500 Points in the Guard Brigade will be freed up for Death Company and Sanguinary Ancients. Exactly the same archetype. Using different models.

That, or everyone starts running at least three Knights. Or <Imperium> gets dropped entirely and everyone starts running Drukhari armies.

[Corsair14]

Doesnt make it less of a plague or less a reason to scorn the unoriginal sheep who keep doing it.

[Cheesegear]

Doesnt make it less of a plague or less a reason to scorn the unoriginal sheep who keep doing it.

It's a game of numbers. The numbers are the same for everyone. Nerds will bust out the Excel spreadsheet and start MathHammering out Damage-per-Point (the 'to wound' table is garbage, and AP works the same against everyone). Once the best unit in the game is figured out (hint; It's Death Company), why go for anything less?

Or would you prefer tournaments to be...

"That guy over there is running Death Company. Oh well. I guess only one of us gets to use the best unit in the game. Looks like the winner is already decided because no-one is allowed to use any of the same things."

"That guy is running the same army as me. Oh poot. Take me home so I can change."

The idea that two (intelliegent) people will read a Codex and came to the same conclusion (independently) on which units are good and which units are trash is pretty universal. Nobody wants to spend hundreds of [currency] on an army that loses. So, if a player feels that way, it behooves them to figure out what the best unit/s in the book is/are, and why. Now, Codex day-of-release, you have a bunch of smart people who work it out...Then, thanks to the incredible internet, they tell everyone. Space Wolves is DoA. Almost every reviewer said so, without actually saying so. How come every Reviewer was able to say almost the same thing, if they were the ones doing the reviews, and their reviews weren't out yet?
That's right. It's a game of numbers. And numbers are the same for everyone.

The only other conclusion, is that tournaments are cancer killing the hobby. Which I fundamentally disagree with. As tournaments drive innovation in the hobby, sales for GW, and provide data for the next buff and nerf cycle. So, if you're looking at a bunch of lists, and you see the Top 3 running almost incidental lists with similar lists peppering the rest of the Top 100, you can guarantee that GW has seen the results (especially from a sponsored Major like NOVA). So...Like I've already told you; Just chill out.

If you have a problem with copy-paste lists. The real blame lies with GW for not making everything in the entire game worth taking.

[Forum Explorer]

My main army is a 2 battalions of BA only.

I'm undecided on how much nerf I am going to be stuck with.

For sure, I will not get any buffs.

On the plus side, I am waiting for the ork Codex to get mine ot of storage. Thoses should be interesting.

If you are running a pure faction army, then you won't be affected by the rumoured nerf. You might have a different nerf, but we've got no information on that right now.


Netlisting. Will. Happen. When. There. Are. Only. A handful. Of. Good. Tactics.

How many times can that be repeated?

More like netlisting will happen period. I mean what are chess guides but a different kind of netlisting?

[The_Admiral]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/295386685699522562/489968070014795789/20180914_021726.jpg

Gonna need honest opinions on the painting and how to fix it if bad.

[Corsair14]

Whatever floats your boat. I for one find the exact same thing over and over boring as hell. 40k before the internet was such a cool place. Every store had its own meta and visitors either did really good by having something no one expected or really bad not being geared up to take on that meta. Its a flaw in the system that one army type can win over and over. Guess that one reason I stay away from hyper competitive nerds, I actually want to paint and play minis I like that are cool rather than cheesy netlist crap.

[9mm]

Whatever floats your boat. I for one find the exact same thing over and over boring as hell. 40k before the internet was such a cool place. Every store had its own meta and visitors either did really good by having something no one expected or really bad not being geared up to take on that meta. Its a flaw in the system that one army type can win over and over. Guess that one reason I stay away from hyper competitive nerds, I actually want to paint and play minis I like that are cool rather than cheesy netlist crap.

I can't tell if you want cheese to go with your whine, or if you want me off your lawn. seriously play what you want, nobody cares until you try to tell them what they can play. Also what kind of fluff player doesn't want Blood Angels to take Death Company? That's kinda their thing.

[Drasius]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/295386685699522562/489968070014795789/20180914_021726.jpg

Gonna need honest opinions on the painting and how to fix it if bad.

The orange/brown looks a bit patchy, but it also sorta fits, so YMMV.
The green on the cannon could use some highlighting for a bit of a glow.
A quick super light drybrush or a painstaking amount of edge highlighting on the silver would make the details pop nicely.


Whatever floats your boat. I for one find the exact same thing over and over boring as hell. 40k before the internet was such a cool place. Every store had its own meta and visitors either did really good by having something no one expected or really bad not being geared up to take on that meta. Its a flaw in the system that one army type can win over and over. Guess that one reason I stay away from hyper competitive nerds, I actually want to paint and play minis I like that are cool rather than cheesy netlist crap.

So, things were much better when every store had it's one or two top players who ran the top lists and there was very little innovation? You do you friend, but if you think that "before the internet" (whatever that timeline is meant to be) meant that each 'dex didn't have no-brainer units like SW termies, Pulsa Rokkit Orks, Banshee's in Falcons or any other blatantly broken older edition garbage that anyone with a grasp of the game could see were much better than anything else, you're only fooling yourself.

If you're facing off against "cheesy netlist crap", that's an issue with the people you're playing, not netlisting as it's perfectly normal for people to simply runwhat they like rather than copy-pasting the latest GT winners list. I'm not saying people don't do that, 'cause they totally do, but if they're doing that in a casual meta, then they're ****ters and generally not worth playing.


I can't tell if you want cheese to go with your whine, or if you want me off your lawn. seriously play what you want, nobody cares until you try to tell them what they can play. Also what kind of fluff player doesn't want Blood Angels to take Death Company? That's kinda their thing.

It's one of their things. I'd actually expect lots of players not to take DC since the BA have a wide range of gimmicks specialty units - librarian dreads, sang guard, ASM/VV focus, baal preds, stormravens, alongside the usual marine stuff available to everyone.

[Forum Explorer]

Whatever floats your boat. I for one find the exact same thing over and over boring as hell. 40k before the internet was such a cool place. Every store had its own meta and visitors either did really good by having something no one expected or really bad not being geared up to take on that meta. Its a flaw in the system that one army type can win over and over. Guess that one reason I stay away from hyper competitive nerds, I actually want to paint and play minis I like that are cool rather than cheesy netlist crap.

Oh, I'll agree to that seeing the same list over and over again is boring. It's why I love my current meta because pretty much anything goes since it's not that competitive. Which I suppose brings up my point. Every store/region/area still does have it's own meta. Sometimes that's ultra competitive, but often times it's not. In fact I'd say that more often then not, people will play a less competitive game, because of budget restraints, a spoken/unspoken agreement, or simply because they want to put down the minis they find cool rather then what's good.

But the high level tournament scene is different. Once prizes, prestige, and the simple knowledge that other people are bringing their best then people will play as hard as they can. And that's always been the case. And the thing is? The results would end up looking very similar to what we get now. Because that's something we don't see. We don't see the large number of lists of people who simply made the strongest list out of what they owned. But the top players were still running the same top lists as each other, because Warhammer has always had a 'best strategy' and despite what Cheesegear says, people were always able to calculate out what that was.

So there's no point in hammering down on 'netlisting'. It's always existed and it's basically impossible to stop. Because Warhammer, even in it's most complex of editions, is still a pretty simple game. Though there is one way to fight it. And that, hilariously enough, is having a nerf/buff cycle like GW has right now. Staying on the top of a changing meta is expensive, and I'm hearing about people who just don't think it's worth it anymore. But therer will always be those with the money, time, and desire to win to just bite that bullet. (Alternatively, people whose collection is so big they just always have the top army)

[Blackhawk748]

So there's no point in hammering down on 'netlisting'. It's always existed and it's basically impossible to stop. Because Warhammer, even in it's most complex of editions, is still a pretty simple game. Though there is one way to fight it. And that, hilariously enough, is having a nerf/buff cycle like GW has right now. Staying on the top of a changing meta is expensive, and I'm hearing about people who just don't think it's worth it anymore. But therer will always be those with the money, time, and desire to win to just bite that bullet. (Alternatively, people whose collection is so big they just always have the top army)

Except its all nerfs, all the time and thats really depressing. Particularly because i can compare it to Kings of War who also has a yearly book that they make for Tournament play, and every Clash of Kings has radically shifted the meta and usually not by nerfing stuff, but by buffing poor options to make them viable. Don't get me wrong, they nerf stuff, but only if its opressive and not just because people use it a lot (looking at the Stormravens here) whereas buffs are generally because a unit isn't being touched. Mantic is also good about asking the player base about why noone uses the units in question, so that helps.

Basically, if GW wants to make a truly balanced game they have to step up their communication skills, because the constant nerf hammer is getting old really fast and they've barely hit any army i play.

[Drasius]

Except its all nerfs, all the time and thats really depressing. Particularly because i can compare it to Kings of War who also has a yearly book that they make for Tournament play, and every Clash of Kings has radically shifted the meta and usually not by nerfing stuff, but by buffing poor options to make them viable. Don't get me wrong, they nerf stuff, but only if its opressive and not just because people use it a lot (looking at the Stormravens here) whereas buffs are generally because a unit isn't being touched. Mantic is also good about asking the player base about why noone uses the units in question, so that helps.

Basically, if GW wants to make a truly balanced game they have to step up their communication skills, because the constant nerf hammer is getting old really fast and they've barely hit any army i play.

When everyonething is supergarbage, no-one is.
- Games Workshop

[Forum Explorer]

Except its all nerfs, all the time and thats really depressing. Particularly because i can compare it to Kings of War who also has a yearly book that they make for Tournament play, and every Clash of Kings has radically shifted the meta and usually not by nerfing stuff, but by buffing poor options to make them viable. Don't get me wrong, they nerf stuff, but only if its opressive and not just because people use it a lot (looking at the Stormravens here) whereas buffs are generally because a unit isn't being touched. Mantic is also good about asking the player base about why noone uses the units in question, so that helps.

Basically, if GW wants to make a truly balanced game they have to step up their communication skills, because the constant nerf hammer is getting old really fast and they've barely hit any army i play.

There have been buffs, if you consider each Codex to be buffs. And I do. Barring Tau, Codexes have always improved or at worst left a unit the same. And the armies that need buffs the most are Index armies without Codexes. And they have brought armies from the bottom of the heap to kings of the circuit. Namely, Imperial Knights and Drukhari.

It'll be very interesting to see what will happen when all the Codexes have been released. I hope that at that time they'll start to look at what Codexes are doing the worst and why.

[Cheesegear]

I for one find the exact same thing over and over boring as hell.

Which is a problem...But I don't think it's the problem you're thinking of.


40k before the internet was such a cool place.

What are you talking about?

I remember vividly, when the 3.5 Chaos Marine Codex came out, and the three Chaos players sitting over their Codex and deciding within an hour or two that Khorne Berzerker Rhino Rush was clearly the best thing in the book. Then they started discussing how to best use Daemonic Stature and Daemonic Chains and how to Summon Bloodthirsters. I quite clearly remember wanting to quit the game because there was nothing I could do against Khorne Berzerkers. 4th Ed. was pretty much the same thing, except now with Eldar Falcons and Banshees. These days, when I remember 3.5 and 4th on the internet, I find that other people remember the same thing; Super strong Melee units jumping out of Transports were ruining the game.

No-one had the internet pre-5th. But, shock. Many metas still ran the same thing because numbers are numbers and maths isn't really subjective. But you're right, right? "40K before the internet was better." No it wasn't. The only way that 40K would have been better is if the people you played it with, weren't treating it as a competitive game, rather, they were treating it as a way to hang out with their mates. I guess, before the internet and the advent of online gaming, sure. You'd play 40K to hang out. But now? You can hang out with your mates even though you live in different countries. I don't need 40K to have 'fun' anymore. I play 40K because it's a game.

Then in 5th Ed., Imperial Fists' Devastators with Tank Hunters actually had a chance against the Razor-spam and Guard Leafblowers. I remember very clearly thinking, why don't I have a 2nd unit of Tank Hunting Devastators? ...Better yet, why don't I have a third? Then spam happened. Spam wins games. Because why would anyone ever put a bad unit on the board, when they can put good units on the board? No-one told me that. I worked it out for myself. Bad units are bad. Good units are good. The end result is the same, that I put less bad units on the board. But, what if someone had told me from the start? What if there had been a Guide to Space Marines, that told me which units were worth having, and which units weren't? I could've saved a lot of time and money by simply just asking someone on the internet a question. I could've got my Mum to buy me nothing but Thunder Hammer Terminators. But I didn't...'Cause I was like...13? Very stupid. And didn't know the answers.

Hell, my Iron Warriors friend had a calculator at the table so that he could Pythagoras the 'guesses' on his Basilisks... Oh, yeah. My friend played Iron Warriors and ran three Basilisks. Because what was stopping him?

There may not have been net-listing. But as far as I remember, there has always been power-gaming.


Every store had its own meta

I know that's not true. Because my memories of competitive 3.5 and 4 match other peoples' memories of 3.5 and 4 and they don't even live in the same state, let alone same country as me.


I actually want to paint and play minis I like that are cool rather than cheesy netlist crap.

And I ask you, who are you to judge how or why someone put their army together?

7th Ed. Everyone remembers 7th Ed.
Eldar had Jetbikes as Troops. A new kid comes along and says he like Saim-Hann, and as such, buys a bunch of Jetbikes and maybe a Wraithknight 'cause it's huge and looks cool. Oh ****. That's a net-list. You're not allowed to play that. People in my meta were refusing a new kid games, and he didn't even know what he'd done wrong, except that apparently he liked the wrong models.
Space Marines literally had a Formation designed to represent most of a Battle Company, with supporting elements. Cool. GW wants you to run a Battle Company. Oh, by the way, did you know that if you do that, you can have free Transports? WRONG. That's a Gladius and people on the internet run that and how dare you collect a fluffy army that just so happens to be really good that is also similar to what people on the internet run.

...You could say the same for any Formation in 7th Ed. that GW 'accidentally' made really good. Formations were designed around fluff. That's what they were literally designed for. Oh wait. The Formation is a little bit good. So you're not allowed to play it. **** you, and your hobby is bad. You're not allowed to play the Formation if it's actually good. If you like giant robots, and you think the triple Riptide Formation is cool? **** you. You're not allowed to have games because I saw it on the internet once.

Then come to 8th Ed.
Guardsmen spamming Infantry. That's literally what they do. Uh oh. It's what people on the internet run. So you're bad and you should feel bad, if you like Infantry Guard. Also if you like Leman Russes, you should feel bad. Also, you'll notice that your models are really cheap. So if you notice that you can form a Brigade, you should also feel bad. Because I saw it on the internet once.
Say the same thing for any Thousand Sons' player who runs Ahriman and/or Magnus. How dare they use the coolest and most fluffy models at their disposal?
How dare anyone run Typhus and Poxwalkers, despite that being the exact fluff. It was on the internet, you know. And despite it being clearly written into Typhus' rules that he is very clearly designed to run alongside Poxwalkers...If you actually do it though (even though GW designed it that way), then you're a jerk.
Also, if you have a centrepiece Imperial Knight model in your Imperium army, turns out you're also a piece of ****.

At the end of the day, I write Guides, myself.
If I've saved anyone either time and/or money on models that don't work, then I am glad I wrote it. If my Guides have helped anyone make better choices about the game and the models they buy, then I don't care. Because very, very, very few people...
a) Want to spend money on models that don't work, or
b) Are happy when Models They Like turn out to be total garbage against someone else's models that They Like. Ask Drasius about Chaos Marines - and specifically Thousand Sons - and how they were before 8th Ed.

Deciding that everyone and anyone who builds a good list, is automatically a power gamer and/or net-lister, is extremely poor form. Especially if, y'know, all's they really want is to not put total trash on the table.

I can play a totally fluffy Deathwatch army. It's gonna be great. If it comes up against my friend's T'au army, I've already won the game. Both of us are using Models We Like. But it doesn't matter. Because what my friend likes, is ****. Anyone can build anything they want. But GW has written the game so that there are certain choices that are Just Terrible. Deathwatch isn't a net-list. But I've still already won the game and there's nothing my opponent can do about it. Because I'm Deathwatch and I can cancel Markerlight tokens anytime I want, whilst also shooting Special Ammo, and I get to re-roll to wound against anything he has on the board that's actually any good... And he's T'au and can't do anything.

Building armies around 'What You Like' can be really awesome (e.g; Typhus and Poxwalkers), or it can be totally terrible (e.g; All Primaris Marines, all the time). But it's a total crapshoot, and the only way to know if the models you like are actually worth more than nothing, is if maybe the internet (a.k.a; Product Reviews) can help you.

The internet told me that a place in my town tends to undercook their meat and has had a few health code violations. Thanks internet!
Um, actually, the restaurant was better before online reviews because people just went there and ate what they liked, and if they got sick it was their fault.

[deuterio12]

I remember vividly, when the 3.5 Chaos Marine Codex came out, and the three Chaos players sitting over their Codex and deciding within an hour or two that Khorne Berzerker Rhino Rush was clearly the best thing in the book. Then they started discussing how to best use Daemonic Stature and Daemonic Chains and how to Summon Bloodthirsters. I quite clearly remember wanting to quit the game because there was nothing I could do against Khorne Berzerkers. 4th Ed. was pretty much the same thing, except now with Eldar Falcons and Banshees. These days, when I remember 3.5 and 4th on the internet, I find that other people remember the same thing; Super strong Melee units jumping out of Transports were ruining the game.

No-one had the internet pre-5th. But, shock. Many metas still ran the same thing because numbers are numbers and maths isn't really subjective. But you're right, right? "40K before the internet was better." No it wasn't. The only way that 40K would have been better is if the people you played it with, weren't treating it as a competitive game, rather, they were treating it as a way to hang out with their mates. I guess, before the internet and the advent of online gaming, sure. You'd play 40K to hang out. But now? You can hang out with your mates even though you live in different countries. I don't need 40K to have 'fun' anymore. I play 40K because it's a game.

Then in 5th Ed., Imperial Fists' Devastators with Tank Hunters actually had a chance against the Razor-spam and Guard Leafblowers. I remember very clearly thinking, why don't I have a 2nd unit of Tank Hunting Devastators? ...Better yet, why don't I have a third? Then spam happened. Spam wins games. Because why would anyone ever put a bad unit on the board, when they can put good units on the board?

Reminder that when Magic The Gathering first came out, one of the first top decks that emerged was just a lot of black lotus and ancestral recalls shuffled together. Then the designers remembered to add the 4-copy limit.

[Drasius]

...Say the same thing for any Thousand Sons' player who runs Ahriman and/or Magnus. How dare they use the coolest and most fluffy models at their disposal?

While I agree with 95% of what you said, there a big difference between a "Thousand Sons" list that has Magnus, Ahriman, a Daemon Prince and as many Tzangors beastmen as you can cram in while still somehow tacking Mortarion in there and an actual Thousand Sons list with a sorc, some rubricae and/or scarab occult and some Tzangors beastmen and/or deamons for chaff +/- a named character.


...b) Are happy when Models They Like turn out to be total garbage against someone else's models that They Like. Ask Drasius about Chaos Marines - and specifically Thousand Sons - and how they were before 8th Ed.

Surprisingly good once they got their formation in traitor's hate, but I know you mean for the other ~15 years when they were among the worst choices in one of the worst books in all of 6th and most of 7th while also being underwhelming to the point of irrelevance in 5th and most of 4th to boot. You're right that it does suck tremendously trying to play bottom tier trash against net listing knobs, but that's why you don't play casual lists against competative lists. There's nothing inherently wrong with either side, but they don't belong on the same table, which is where I suspect most of the complaints are coming from - it's not the list, it's the person running the list that's the issue.

[Blackhawk748]

There have been buffs, if you consider each Codex to be buffs. And I do. Barring Tau, Codexes have always improved or at worst left a unit the same. And the armies that need buffs the most are Index armies without Codexes. And they have brought armies from the bottom of the heap to kings of the circuit. Namely, Imperial Knights and Drukhari.

It'll be very interesting to see what will happen when all the Codexes have been released. I hope that at that time they'll start to look at what Codexes are doing the worst and why.

I don't consider a Codex a buff, because Indexe's were just so everyone could actually play 8th. The Codexes are the rules you are supposed to have. So thinking that way, what has CHapter Approved been 90% percent of the time? 90% nerfs.

[Requizen]

Man, 1.5 pages in and the title is already working as intended.

On the Kill Team front, anyone's FLGS started the Organized Play stuff? I'm excited to do a campaign (though it'll mean buying some more Guardsmen to go with my Scions).

[Ionbound]

I mean sure Solo Knights are dead but both flavors of Armiger are really good and are about the same price as a Slamguinius Battalion, so I think we're gonna see Guard Battalions or Brigade and then just a full SH with a Castellan and two Armigers of the appropriate flavor for the meta, and Slamguinius will be what falls out of the list. Put the three BF 'wild' CPs into Exalted Court/Heirloom of the House and you've got a pretty decent knight set that only differs in that it can't get away with using Rotate Ion Shield every turn.

[Turalisj]

Man, 1.5 pages in and the title is already working as intended.

On the Kill Team front, anyone's FLGS started the Organized Play stuff? I'm excited to do a campaign (though it'll mean buying some more Guardsmen to go with my Scions).


We have a campaign going into week 2. Death guard, admech, and tsons are the top forces.

[LansXero]

If you like giant robots, and you think the triple Riptide Formation is cool? **** you. You're not allowed to have games because I saw it on the internet once.

QFT. If I won, it was such a stomping that I'd feel bad about it. If I lost (because dice / tailoring), then I was garbage for losing with a 'hardass powergaming list".


On the Kill Team front, anyone's FLGS started the Organized Play stuff? I'm excited to do a campaign (though it'll mean buying some more Guardsmen to go with my Scions).

we´ll be starting ours later this month, as we still need to wait for the kit to arrive. We'll heavily modify the campaign rules though, so that dying and team / faction choices have more of an impact.

Wasnt a FAQ for kill team supposed to come soon?

[Drasius]

QFT. If I won, it was such a stomping that I'd feel bad about it. If I lost (because dice / tailoring), then I was garbage for losing with a 'hardass powergaming list".

1) How often did you lose when you took triptide?
2) I find it interesting that the only factors you attribute to your losing with triptide is either RNG or being list tailored against but you also state all your wins were stompings

[druid91]

I do agree to a certain extent with that. And honestly, I feel like that's where a bunch of the conflict between me and Cheesegear comes out of. My gaming group for 40k? The idea of running a Net List is pretty Anathema. Heck, half of us are averse to special characters because we prefer to 'promote' our own guys to having names. We play certain factions not because they're good but because we like that faction. Heck, one guy I play with sold me his entire half built collection of deathwatch stuff because he couldn't get behind the Deathwatch as a faction. Said they seemed just unheroic with how they show up to just murder aliens for being aliens.

I play Adeptus Mechanicus because I like crazy knowledge worshiping cyborgs.

I play Imperial Knights because I like Giant Stompy Robots, they pair well with the Adeptus Mechanicus, and sadly there's little to no support for crazy giant war machines outside of forgeworld Ordinatii, Titans, and knights. So I go with Knights because the first two are stupidly expensive and ridiculous to play with in a normal game.

I play Deathwatch because I had a bunch of Primaris marines already, and I like the idea of a bunch of space marines from different chapters with their disparate cultures coming together because they can all agree that aliens are terrible.

While we do strategize within our lists with what units we take, what wargear, the fluff 90% of the time takes priority. Forgeworlds are secretive nutjobs to the point where Phobos delivers the grey knights wargear and supplies with mind-wiped servitors so the grey knights can't use their psychic powers to MAYBE glean some sort of info on what Phobos is doing from them rather than every interacting in person. No, I'm not going to take detachments from different forgeworlds. Particularly not detachments of Stygies because they've already got a reputation for being untrustworthy.

Is this a mechanical handicap? Sure, but nobody else is sitting their building crazy mix and match lists either.

[Drasius]

I do agree to a certain extent with that. And honestly, I feel like that's where a bunch of the conflict between me and Cheesegear comes out of. My gaming group for 40k? The idea of running a Net List is pretty Anathema. Heck, half of us are averse to special characters because we prefer to 'promote' our own guys to having names. We play certain factions not because they're good but because we like that faction. Heck, one guy I play with sold me his entire half built collection of deathwatch stuff because he couldn't get behind the Deathwatch as a faction. Said they seemed just unheroic with how they show up to just murder aliens for being aliens.

I play Adeptus Mechanicus because I like crazy knowledge worshiping cyborgs.

I play Imperial Knights because I like Giant Stompy Robots, they pair well with the Adeptus Mechanicus, and sadly there's little to no support for crazy giant war machines outside of forgeworld Ordinatii, Titans, and knights. So I go with Knights because the first two are stupidly expensive and ridiculous to play with in a normal game.

I play Deathwatch because I had a bunch of Primaris marines already, and I like the idea of a bunch of space marines from different chapters with their disparate cultures coming together because they can all agree that aliens are terrible.

While we do strategize within our lists with what units we take, what wargear, the fluff 90% of the time takes priority. Forgeworlds are secretive nutjobs to the point where Phobos delivers the grey knights wargear and supplies with mind-wiped servitors so the grey knights can't use their psychic powers to MAYBE glean some sort of info on what Phobos is doing from them rather than every interacting in person. No, I'm not going to take detachments from different forgeworlds. Particularly not detachments of Stygies because they've already got a reputation for being untrustworthy.

Is this a mechanical handicap? Sure, but nobody else is sitting their building crazy mix and match lists either.

There's nothing wrong with having a casual meta such as you describe, many players find it preferable.
There's also nothing wrong with having a competative meta such as Cheese and Requizen generally have, many players find it preferable.

The issue comes when the two sorts of players mix as there's only ever one outcome - the competative list stomps the casual list. Now the argument begins:
- does the competative player tone down their list?
- does the casual player step up their list building?
- do they give a handicap to the casual player?
- does one of the switch armies to even out the imbalance?
- do they just not play each other?

There's not really a "right" answer and that's one of the major issues that routinely crops up in the casual vs competative discussion that gets rehashed a million tomes over any time 40k is discussed for more than 5 minutes.

Where the real kicker comes in is that if you're all the way on one end of the casual spectrum where what you like is what you put on the table regardless of how bad it is ruleswise, then you will have very little interest in this thread since you're going to run what you like and you're not going to change just because [unit x] is better for the points. If you waver even a little from that and begin to make concessions to what you field based on what's good, then you start to move up the casual/competative scale, and there's very little to support where one person draws the line at acceptable. Why is monodex more acceptable than having allies? Why is one detatchment more acceptable than three? Why is mixing chapters/legions not acceptable when running monodex? Why is running a fluffy list cheese just because it's good? Is having a single assassin in an otherwise monodex, mono regiment/chapter better or worse than "real" imperial soup? Are knights and baneblades acceptable in "regular" 40k?

Where do you draw the line, and more importantly, why? (note: this is rhetorical, I don't care how/why you justify it to yourself why certain things aren't OK but others are)

The easy and insulting answer is to just tell casual scum to go play narrative where they can take whatever and not feel bad, and for some, possibly even many casuals, that will actually be the right answer because narrative is built to cater for that sort of thing, but the issue then comes when either the casual doesn't like that answer or when it isn't really appropriate or possible (after all, if no-one else in your group will lower themselves to play narrative, then you can't play narrative can you?).

"But I want to play what I like!" You totally can, the problem comes when you want to be able to win when what you like = what is bad, and the only people who can fix that is either GW via errata/FAQ/new dex or you via making compromises to your list. If you can't/won't compromise and GW doesn't deign to fix your trash tier units/dex, then you can either keep bashing your head against that wall, buy another army, find another group with a similar mindset to you or you get a lot of painting done while you wait for a new dex. It's not a good answer, but if you're stubborn enough not to compromise in any way, shape or form and your group won't compromise for you either, it's the only answer left.

"But I like [trash unit] and everyone else is running [meta unit]!" Well, who says they don't just really like [meta unit]. Can you really justify telling them not to like [meta unit]? Granted, they're likely full of crap (how many "I just like big suits" triptide players still run any riptides now?), and they are in fact only running it because it's strong, but people had Saim-Hann and Ilyanden Kraftworld armies before 6/7th (but they're Eldar players, and as such, automatically terrible people anyway), BA jump-heavy armies existed before 5th/8th, white scar biker armies have exsisted forever and were pretty bad before 6th, daemons are always a thing if for no other reason than being able to have 1 army for both systems. What about if the shoe was on the other foot? If your favourite unit, the ones you'd built your army around were suddenly the new meta hotness, OP enough to cause an Eldar player to blush and your group complained, would you then change your list to omit said unit/s?

[LansXero]

1) How often did you lose when you took triptide?
2) I find it interesting that the only factors you attribute to your losing with triptide is either RNG or being list tailored against but you also state all your wins were stompings

Around a 60% winrate. But thats a bit due to my Riptides at the time being proxys xD so I always ended up feeling bad when the old guys I played against started whining about 'hard ass' lists. Because focusing the suits instead of the markerlights I needed to do anything was my fault, or running into the open and getting wrecked by the double-shot move. So I started to 'forget' stuff, leave things out of position or plainly deploy poorly. Sure, sometimes I lost because the other guy was better, but most of them had trash hodgepodge lists that make no sense beyond 'this is what I have' so many times I lost because in the course of giving them a sporting chance I'd get-hot'd myself to death, whiff everything when trying to shoot without enough markerlights, or eat a charge from their uberfluffy HQ deathstar.

I've always been competitive minded, perhaps due to TCG backgrounds, and I can't stand whiners who blame the game instead of trying to compete within its boundaries. Sure, maybe you cant due to cash, or time, or because you dont want, but thats one thing and feeling superior because you are bad is another. Worse when you make people who genuinely like the game feel bad to the point where they stop playing altogether. Like I did.

[Forum Explorer]

I don't consider a Codex a buff, because Indexe's were just so everyone could actually play 8th. The Codexes are the rules you are supposed to have. So thinking that way, what has CHapter Approved been 90% percent of the time? 90% nerfs.

I don't know why you would choose to think that way. I mean, if you look at past editions, you basically had your Codex from the edition before until you got your new one, and then that was it.

But for why it's been mostly nerfs, well I think it's because they've got too many 10/10 options right now. Like both Imperial Fists and Tau are bad choices. But how bad are they? Who needs the bigger buff and how would they also be affected by blanket nerfs? They are both so far from the 10/10 options that it's hard to read how much a buff they actually need.

And the 10/10 options do need to be nerfed. Like, say Tau is a 3/10. Buffing them up to a 6/10 is going to be pointless since GW still will get almost no data from it. Because everyone is still just using the 10/10 options.


Man, 1.5 pages in and the title is already working as intended.

On the Kill Team front, anyone's FLGS started the Organized Play stuff? I'm excited to do a campaign (though it'll mean buying some more Guardsmen to go with my Scions).

My Kill Team campaign is starting tomorrow. I'll keep you guys in the loop if you want.

[druid91]

There's nothing wrong with having a casual meta such as you describe, many players find it preferable.
There's also nothing wrong with having a competative meta such as Cheese and Requizen generally have, many players find it preferable.

The issue comes when the two sorts of players mix as there's only ever one outcome - the competative list stomps the casual list. Now the argument begins:
- does the competative player tone down their list?
- does the casual player step up their list building?
- do they give a handicap to the casual player?
- does one of the switch armies to even out the imbalance?
- do they just not play each other?

There's not really a "right" answer and that's one of the major issues that routinely crops up in the casual vs competative discussion that gets rehashed a million tomes over any time 40k is discussed for more than 5 minutes.

Where the real kicker comes in is that if you're all the way on one end of the casual spectrum where what you like is what you put on the table regardless of how bad it is ruleswise, then you will have very little interest in this thread since you're going to run what you like and you're not going to change just because [unit x] is better for the points. If you waver even a little from that and begin to make concessions to what you field based on what's good, then you start to move up the casual/competative scale, and there's very little to support where one person draws the line at acceptable. Why is monodex more acceptable than having allies? Why is one detatchment more acceptable than three? Why is mixing chapters/legions not acceptable when running monodex? Why is running a fluffy list cheese just because it's good? Is having a single assassin in an otherwise monodex, mono regiment/chapter better or worse than "real" imperial soup? Are knights and baneblades acceptable in "regular" 40k?

Where do you draw the line, and more importantly, why? (note: this is rhetorical, I don't care how/why you justify it to yourself why certain things aren't OK but others are)

The easy and insulting answer is to just tell casual scum to go play narrative where they can take whatever and not feel bad, and for some, possibly even many casuals, that will actually be the right answer because narrative is built to cater for that sort of thing, but the issue then comes when either the casual doesn't like that answer or when it isn't really appropriate or possible (after all, if no-one else in your group will lower themselves to play narrative, then you can't play narrative can you?).

"But I want to play what I like!" You totally can, the problem comes when you want to be able to win when what you like = what is bad, and the only people who can fix that is either GW via errata/FAQ/new dex or you via making compromises to your list. If you can't/won't compromise and GW doesn't deign to fix your trash tier units/dex, then you can either keep bashing your head against that wall, buy another army, find another group with a similar mindset to you or you get a lot of painting done while you wait for a new dex. It's not a good answer, but if you're stubborn enough not to compromise in any way, shape or form and your group won't compromise for you either, it's the only answer left.

"But I like [trash unit] and everyone else is running [meta unit]!" Well, who says they don't just really like [meta unit]. Can you really justify telling them not to like [meta unit]? Granted, they're likely full of crap (how many "I just like big suits" triptide players still run any riptides now?), and they are in fact only running it because it's strong, but people had Saim-Hann and Ilyanden Kraftworld armies before 6/7th (but they're Eldar players, and as such, automatically terrible people anyway), BA jump-heavy armies existed before 5th/8th, white scar biker armies have exsisted forever and were pretty bad before 6th, daemons are always a thing if for no other reason than being able to have 1 army for both systems. What about if the shoe was on the other foot? If your favourite unit, the ones you'd built your army around were suddenly the new meta hotness, OP enough to cause an Eldar player to blush and your group complained, would you then change your list to omit said unit/s?

That... actually happened with Codex Imperial Knights. Still haven't really figured out a way to address it beyond only bringing knights in higher points games.

[Blackhawk748]

And the 10/10 options do need to be nerfed. Like, say Tau is a 3/10. Buffing them up to a 6/10 is going to be pointless since GW still will get almost no data from it. Because everyone is still just using the 10/10 options.

Except that then they'll just take the 9.5/10, then the 9/10, then the 8/10, until we're all down to playing the 5/10s and the Tau still suck in this scenario.

This is what happened to Guard, they just shifted a tad, for those who can't shift (Nilla Marines) they just stop existing as a competitive army.

[Forum Explorer]

Except that then they'll just take the 9.5/10, then the 9/10, then the 8/10, until we're all down to playing the 5/10s and the Tau still suck in this scenario.

This is what happened to Guard, they just shifted a tad, for those who can't shift (Nilla Marines) they just stop existing as a competitive army.

Sure, and at that point (or hopefully earlier, say around 7/10), it should be much easier to bring Tau up, because then if you undershoot, you still might get some data back, and you've done so much nerfing you'll (hopefully) be better at knowing what will be OP or not and thus won't overshoot.

They could certainly go about things smarter, there's no denying that. But it is a method that can work.

[Cheesegear]

On the Kill Team front, anyone's FLGS started the Organized Play stuff?

Currently working on Guides as we speak.


The idea of running a Net List is pretty Anathema.

Of course it is. Anyone running a list designed specifically to win, knowing beforehand whether or not it will win or lose before the game has even started, has already lost several Good Guy Points.


Heck, half of us are averse to special characters because we prefer to 'promote' our own guys to having names.

Lots of my models have names. Doesn't mean I can't use Uniques as well.


We play certain factions not because they're good but because we like that faction.

I don't understand where you and I aren't agreeing? :smallconfused:
The problem is what happens when the Faction you like is total garbage? (e.g; Grey Knights and T'au)


I play Adeptus Mechanicus because I like crazy knowledge worshiping cyborgs.
[...]
I play Imperial Knights because I like Giant Stompy Robots

And there's nothing wrong with that on the table. AdMech are 'pretty good', and Knights are currently the meta.
I can't see any point where you are being punished by GW just for liking a certain Faction.

You also aren't in a position where the Faction you like, just happen to be among the strongest Faction in the game (Craftworlds, Drukhari, etc.).

You're in the sweet middle ground.
The Faction you like, doesn't suck.
The Faction you like, isn't so good that your friends start ostracising you.

Great. You win.


While we do strategize within our lists with what units we take, what wargear, the fluff 90% of the time takes priority.

My favourite list that I ever played was after Angels of Death came out, and I was running Pedro's Great Gladius in Drop Pods (that I had to pay for).

Nobody says that you can't have Fluff behind your army. That's never what I was ever trying to say. I don't think anybody is saying that. And I feel like you're hard nose-diving into the Stormwind Fallacy. In that anyone who net-lists Power-Games, can't roleplay. Which is straight up false. I'm pretty sure I've read more novels than anyone on this Forum, and I've posted two several hundred word fanfics on the Fluff Thread, and if you look at the Battle Report post you can see that I've named several of my models based on certain deeds that they've done.

And I'm still trying to figure out a way to put Watch Master Estaban de Dominova on the tabletop, an NPC from the Deathwatch RPG who is rad.

The other thing is 'Emergent Fluff'. Write a good list. Come up with the list you want. Then write the Fluff for it.
Don't come at me with the Stormwind Fallacy, 'cause you're wrong... That's why it's a fallacy.


Where the real kicker comes in is that if you're all the way on one end of the casual spectrum where what you like is what you put on the table regardless of how bad it is ruleswise, then you will have very little interest in this thread since you're going to run what you like and you're not going to change just because [unit x] is better for the points.

I've actually said this numerous times. I think specifically regarding Eldan. If you just want to do what you want, and you're happy with that, then who cares? Do what you want. Nobody can actually stop you from having fun with models you like. Then, additionally, you come up against the guy who proclaims to be a 'casual', but also...


"But I want to play what I like!" You totally can, the problem comes when you want to be able to win when what you like

Couldn't have said it better myself.


Well, who says they don't just really like [meta unit]. Can you really justify telling them not to like [meta unit]? Granted, they're likelyfull of crap (how many "I just like big suits" triptide players still run any riptides now?)

Actually, Riptides are one of the only good units left in the T'au book, so most T'au players are still running Riptides.

But, I also want to point out that with the release of Eldar/7 this existed...

https://elementgames.co.uk/images/products/32088/37039-med.jpg

and this after Angel's Blade...

https://d3fa68hw0m2vcc.cloudfront.net/b52/154798501.jpeg

and for the Thousand Sons player...

https://d3fa68hw0m2vcc.cloudfront.net/ad7/195951581.jpeg

All of the above are/were offered with discounts on the contents of the box. This is what GW wants you to buy. GW put the contents in boxes, discounted the sum, then advertised them. I can't fault anyone for buying them. I don't know where people get off, criticising people for buying what GW is selling. I've already brought up the Typhus & Poxwalkers combo. The Codex is designed that way, and that's very clearly what GW wants you to do. Just like they wanted Space Marine players to field a Gladius. They wanted players to field a Necron Decurion. They designed Wraithknights so that people would buy them...Even new players want in on that action.
I don't want to say that Capitalism is the problem. That very often, marketing and game design actually works together. But hey, what do I know?

I watched a game of Sigmar today, where a guy was playing Sylvaneth running two Battalions (i.e; Collector/Hobby Bait), and he'd brought nine Forests with him, because the Battletome is designed so that he can do that. Is it his fault that the Battalions are really good? Is it his fault that Sylvaneth can Summon a trillion Forests? Of course it isn't.

So, yeah. I'm never going to call people trashlords based on their army and/or model choice.
I'm definitely never going to Stormwind Fallacy on anyone.


If your favourite unit, the ones you'd built your army around were suddenly the new meta hotness, OP enough to cause an Eldar player to blush and your group complained

What makes Dark Angel Hellblasters (a.k.a; 30" Range Thunder Hammers) different to Blood Angel Death Company? Both are clearly the best unit in their respective books. Both are signature units of their Factions with several buffs and Stratagems designed to entice the player to buy into those units. But, the Blood Angel player is ostracised by his meta, whilst the Dark Angel is simply 'playing to his Faction'? ...Come on. Get real.


I always ended up feeling bad when the old guys I played against started whining about 'hard ass' lists...

https://i.imgur.com/2CFWiIM.jpg


I've always been competitive minded, perhaps due to TCG backgrounds, and I can't stand whiners who blame the game instead of trying to compete within its boundaries.

QFT. I'm competitive minded because it doesn't make sense to me not to be. I just can't figure out why anyone would deliberately put bad units in their list/deck.


feeling superior because you are bad is another.

"What is a Scrub?"


Worse when you make people who genuinely like the game feel bad to the point where they stop playing altogether.

Like I said, there's a guy in my meta who bought two of the above Saim-Hann boxes. He didn't know why everyone was abusing him and he couldn't figure out what he'd done wrong. He was, I think 17 or 18 at the time, and had people a decade older than him, bullying him. :smallannoyed:

[Cheesegear]

Guide to Kill Team
Part I - The Basics

Moving:
Unlike regular 40K, you can only Move or Charge in the same turn. With most Deployment maps starting the players between 8 and 10" away from each other, the only way you're going to get a first-turn Charge, is if you have two Movements, or some sort of other bonuses to your Move speed. One of the more bothersome things with Charging, is that your opponent is always able to move backwards 3" and just totally remove your ability to Charge. However, even if you fail your Charge, you still get to Move. So that's...Something. Because at the start, it's Move or Charge, remember? So if you fail the Charge, you don't get to do absolutely nothing. But it still sucks hard when you have like an 8" Move, but your Charge dice says that you only get to move 3" that turn. However, in Objective-based Missions, you know where your opponent has to be. So that makes things easier.

Psychic Phase: Psybolt is pretty rad 'cause it doesn't roll to hit. Unfortunately only two Factions in the game have access to it. So, we'll skip it for now.

Shooting Phase: 'I shoot, you shoot'. Exactly the same as how the Fight phase works. With 'Readied' models effectively counting as Charging, and automatically going first. However, the big deal with the Shooting Phase, is that if you're shooting models at over half the range of your gun, -1 to hit. If you're targeting an Obscured model, another -1. Therefore, it's pretty standard that you're going to pick up -2 to hit, against anything actually any good. But, because Kill Team boards are so small, the typical firefight range is 10-12". That's the range that will most guns out of long range, but it also prevents your opponent from Charging you. ...Then again, there's always Objectives, and you don't always get to choose where you need to be. Especially as 'Readied' models don't even get to move. So, yeah. If Melee models can stay Obscured or even out of LoS for three turns, they've already won the Mission. The game doesn't exactly 'just let' Kill Teams sit back and shoot forever.

It's important to remember that many models have 2" range abilities. Unfortunately, 2" is the distance required your opponent needs to be able to divide their attacks between more than 1 model. So try to avoid clumping your models together, because it simply means that Storm Bolters are going to give you a bad time... Then again, you actually get to see your opponent's Team, right? If you don't see Storm Bolters, just clump.

But if I have multiple negs to hit, how do I even shoot?: Spam. Unmodified 6s will always hit. More shots = More better. The more models in your Kill Team, the better.

Fight Phase: Not really anything to say about the Fight phase. It's the same as 40K. Remember to leave space between your model and theirs when you Charge. You only have to be within an inch. You do not have to make base-to-base. This effectively allows you to 3" Pile-in 'flip' over your opponent's models into BtB on the other side of the model, which allows you to consolidate easier into the dude behind.

Injury: One of the more terrible things about Kill Team, is that when a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, there's only a 50% chance that they'll actually die. However, it's important to note to weapons that output multiple Damage, get to roll more dice. This means, obviously, that weapons that deal multiple Damage, are better than weapons that don't. For this reason, models with 2 Wounds aren't so great. Because GW charges you points for those extra Wounds, but not only are your 2 Wounds just stripped in one go, but then your opponent also does multi-Damage and further kills you again.

Morale: If half of your models have Flesh Wounds or worse, start taking Morale tests. Once again; More models = More better. Because it raises that 'half' before your entire Team starts crumbling.

Command Points; You get 1 CP at the start of each Battle Round. Additionally, your Leader will give you another one. You'll also get +1 CP for every 10 Points less you have than your opponent. While using Tactics is fun and cool. Fact is, you're only likely to get 2 CPs per turn, maybe 3, and it will be very frustrating if you're playing a Mission that requires using a Tactic to win as part of the Mission. Having only 2 CPs, severely limits what you'll actually do with your Tactics, and that 'limit' actually removes several Tactics from the meta, even if they're good. But that will come per Tactic. Obviously, every Tactic is useful, in its own way...Sort of. But you really need to make sure that a 2 CP Tactic is worth playing, over two 1 CP Tactics. Especially as your Specialists get extra XP if you use their specific Tactic at least once in a Mission. Luckily, all Level 1 Tactics are 1 CP.

It's always important to remember that your higher level Specialists cost extra points, meaning less dudes on the board. Some Levels are worth it, others...Are not. Either way, the fastest way to Level a Specialist is to take them on Missions, and, when you do, burn a CP to use their Tactic. This will get your Specialists 2 XP per Mission, which unfortunately, is pretty much the fastest way to Level without risking dying and accidentally rolling a '6'.

Leader
Resourceful; The main reason to have a Leader (aside from the fact that you must have one), is to get the extra CP per turn. If you never have a Leader above Level 1, you'll be fine.

Bold; Your Leader automatically passing Nerve tests is usually pretty good. Especially if they have the ability to take multiple Flesh Wounds.


Paragon; Models near your Leader gain re-roll 1s to hit. Just remember to keep your models more than 2" apart so everything doesn't die in a hail of Storm Bolter fire.


Tyrant; You opponent adds one to Nerve tests. Ugh. Very rarely do you want your Leader near your opponent's models.

Inspiring; As long as your Leader isn't Shaken, all models near it pass Nerve tests. Since models are always in range of themselves, your Leader will never become Shaken and neither will anyone else. This is better than Bold in every, single way.


Tactician: 5+ gain Command Points back.


Mentor; Give a model re-rolls to hit.

Lead By Example; Choose a dude within 3", that model immediately Fights after your Leader. Unfortunately there aren't that many Leaders that want to be anywhere near a Fight, and thus many Leaders are fairly slow to Level.
Fire on my Target; Choose a dude within 3", that model immediately Shoots after your Leader. Once you're Level 2, basically use it all the time. Unfortunately, that'll get you to Level 3 faster, and that's not what you want.
Force of Will; Your entire Kill Team doesn't suffer penalties for being broken.

Basically get to Level 2, pick up Inspiring, and when you get to Level 3, scrap the guy and start a new Leader. But then you lose all that work that you did trying to get Inspiring the first time. Ugh. In any case, Level 2 Leaders are basically the best...

Combat
Expert Fighter; +1 Attack isn't so much to write about. Yeah, it's fine.

Warrior Adept; +1 to hit is also good.


Deathblow; 6s to wound do a Mortal Wound.


Combat Master; +1 Attack per enemy model within 1".

Deadly Counter; Every time your opponent rolls a 1 to hit against this model in the Fight phase, roll a 5+ and do a Mortal Wound.


Killer Instinct; Re-roll to wound in the Fight phase.


Bloodlust; Re-roll failed Charges. Too little, way too late.

Up and at 'Em; Your Specialist Fights immediately. 'Kay.
Defensive Fighter; Give your guy -2 Attacks (:smallyuk:), and your opponent has to re-roll successful hits in the Fight phase.
Deadly Charge; After you Charge, do a Mortal Wound on a 5+.

The only Combat Specialist you need is a Level 3 one. Several Missions, many, many Command Points and +8 Points later you have an okay model. Cool?

Comms
Scanner; Pick another model within 6" in the Shooting phase and give it +1 to hit. Excellent range. Excellent effect. Ideally mitigates Obscuring, but if a target isn't Obscured, then you sort of...Win. At Level 1 (i.e; for 0 Points), this is so good.

Expert; At the start of each Battle Round, roll a 5+ and gain a Command Point.


Vox Ghost; All of your opponent's models have -1 Leadership. Just...Straight up.


Command Relay; Every time you use a Tactic, roll a 6...It's free!

Static Screech; Once per Battle, all enemy models within 6" take -1 to hit in the Fight phase. This is a fairly strong defensive ability that stops most of your Team getting annihilated in two turns against certain Melee-based Teams.


Triangulator; One of your models with a Heavy weapon - anywhere on the board - can re-roll the dice to determine how many shots they have.


Vox Hacker; Every time you win a Mission with this model not being dead, roll a 5+ and you gain +1 Intelligence.*

* Hopefully, at some point in the near future, Resources actually do something. At the moment? You have to lose several specific Missions in a specific Role for Intelligence to even become a factor.

Rousing Transmission; Your Kill Team subtracts 1 from Nerve tests for the entire phase. Pretty good.
Scanner Uplink; One of your models within 6" can target a model that they can't see...But they only hit a on '6'. Wow. 2 Command Points to almost guarantee to miss. RAD!
New Intelligence; For 1 CP, you can Ready a model that moved within 12". *shrug*

Level 1 Comms already does everything you need it to do... Give a dude +1 to hit. Nice. The Static Screech Skills, are highly situational, and borderline useless, anyway.

Demolitions
Breacher; +1 to wound against targets that are Obscured. Not bad. Just make sure you use a weapon that auto-hits.

Pyromaniac; Re-roll 1s to Wound, when using a weapon that auto-hits.


Saboteur; At the end of a Mission, roll a 5+, an opponent of your choice loses 1 Material. :smallyuk:


Sapper; Booby Trap more Terrain pieces when you choose to Plant Traps...By having this dude in your Kill Team, you essentially telegraph to your opponent what you'll be doing in the Scouting Phase.

Grenadier; +3" to Grenade weapons and re-roll 1s to hit using Grenades.


Siegemaster; +1 to Injury rolls using Shooting weapons if your target is Obscured...How...Specific.


Ammo Hound; At the end of a Mission, roll a 5+, gain 1 Material. :smallyuk:

Custom Ammo; +1 to wound in the Shooting phase. Nice. And your target doesn't even need to be Obscured. If they are, +2 to Wound. lol.
Lucky Escape; Your model Ignore Wounds (5+) during a Shooting phase. Not a bad use of a Command Point, at all.
High Explosive; Your Demo model shoots one shot - regardless of weapon - and that weapon has +2 Damage. Very strong...At Level 3. :smallsigh:

Mostly your Demo model does really well when using weapons that auto-hit. But, after Pyromaniac, you really don't need to get to Level 3.

Heavy
Relentless; Move and shoot with a Heavy weapon, or Advance and Shoot with an Assault weapon. No negs.

Suppressor; Any model targeted by your model in the shooting phase gets -1 to hit. Bring a weapon with lots of shots.


Devastator; Re-roll Damage. Nice. More Damage equals more Injury rolls = Dead Dudes.


Rigourous; Re-roll 1s to hit in the Shooting phase.

Extra Armour; Ignore the AP of weapons with AP-1. Cool. Your opponent shoots with AP- or AP-2. See ya.


Indomitable; Once per Battle re-roll your Injury roll on this model.


Heavily Muscled; Re-roll 1 to wound in the Fight phase...Wait...Really? :smallconfused:

More Bullets; If your weapon has more than one shot, +1 shot.
Overwhelming Firepower; Shoot twice. Really good.
Unkillable; Remove a Flesh Wound from your model.

Heavy Specialists are...Okay? It would depend what your Heavy is, and what weapons you give them.

Medic
Reassuring; This model never counts as shaken for the purposes of other models taking Nerve tests. Okay? :smallconfused:

Field Medic; Gives all friendly models within 3" Ignore Wounds (6+). Okay.


Trauma Specialist; When your opponent rolls Injury against your models within 3", roll another D6, and pick the lowest.


Triage Expert; If any of your models roll a 'Dead', on a 4+, they're not.

Anatomist; Re-roll 1s to wound in the Fight phase. :smallconfused:


Interrogator; At the end of a Mission, roll a 5+, gain +1 Intelligence.


Toxin Synthesiser; Pick D3 of your models during deployment. Their Melee weapons gain +1 Wound for the Mission.

Stimm-Shot; A model within 2" gains +1 to Advance, Charge and number of Attacks. Unfortunately, 2" is the kill-zone for your opponent's multi-shot weapons.
Painkiller; A model within 2" gains +2 Toughness for the Round. 2 CPs is a bit much.
Emergency Resuscitation; A model within 2" doesn't go Out of Action, and takes a Flesh Wound instead. 2 CPs...Probably don't bother unless it's a Demo with a Flamer or something.

Level 3 Medics are pretty good. Their Stratagems are 2 CPs which is pretty bad. But just keep spamming Stimm-Shots until you hit Level 3.

Scout
Swift; Re-roll Advance. Extremely strong on Melee models that can Move twice. *hint, hint*

Forward Scout; Auto-pass Dangerous Terrain.


Skirmisher; Your opponent takes -1 to hit against this model if this model is over 12" away. Doesn't stack with being Obscured.


Vanguard; All models in your Team re-roll 1s to hit in the Shooting phase against any model within 6" of this model.

Pathfinder; +/- 1 whenever you roll for Mission. Can be extremely useful.


Observer; During the Scouting phase, roll a 4+, and choose a second Strategy.


Explorer; At the end of a Mission, roll a 5+, gain +1 Territory.

Quick March; +2" Move or re-roll Advance.
Marked Positions; Your Team re-rolls 1s to hit in the Shooting phase against models within 6" of your Scout. For 1 CP this is almost broken.
Move Unseen; Move <18", but you must finish more than 3" away from an enemy model. You have Advanced. This is really strong if you have an Assault weapon that auto-hits. :smallwink:

Scouts are actually pretty good. A Level 2 Scout can simply spam Marked Positions until the cows come home.

Sniper
Marksman; Re-roll 1s to hit in the Shooting phase. Neat. Bring Plasma.

Assassin; Re-roll 1s to wound in the Shooting phase. Awesome.


Deadeye; An unmodified 6 to wound in the Shooting phase has +1 Damage. More Injury rolls!


Armour Piercing; Unmodified 6 to wound in the Shooting phase has an additional -1 AP. Not that great.

Sharpshooter; If Readied, +1 to hit in the phase. Useful for some models. Not useful for others.


Mobile; Move and shoot with a Heavy weapon, or Advance and Shoot with an Assault weapon. No negs. How does this help, considering that this Skill Tree wants to be Readied all the time? And how come you don't just a Level 1 Heavy for 8 less points?


Eagle-Eye; Rapid Fire and Heavy weapons have +6".

Careful Aim; +1 to hit.
Headshot; Obscured targets are not Obscured.
Quick Shot; Double the amount of shots you have, at -1 to hit.

Snipers - especially Levelled Snipers - are often going to be your most valuable piece of the board (after your Leader). Your opponents aren't going to want them to Level Up, and a Levelled Sniper is scary. So...Basically, Snipers are always going to be fairly valuable targets. The real question is whether it's worth paying the +4 or +8 Points to bring a Levelled Sniper. Well...It depends on the model. But, generally, if you can take a Sniper, you should. Sniper + Comms is usually a fairly effective Team.

Veteran
Grizzled; Ignore penalties during Nerve tests.

Practiced; Re-roll one to hit, and one to wound, per Battle Round.


Survivor; +1 to saves. Yes. Including Invulnerables.


One-Man Army; Your Veteran Tactics cost one less CP. Meaning that Level 1 and 3 Tactics are free.

Seen It All; Your models within 3" get -1 to Nerve tests.


Battle-Scarred; Enemies within 6" have -1 Ld.


Nerves of Steel; Re-roll to hit during Overwatch.

Adaptive Tactics; Before the first Initiative phase, this model gets a free Move action. Nice. Especially when it becomes free.
Well Drilled; Ready your Veteran, even if they moved.
Roll with the Hits; Your opponent only ever gets to roll 1 dice for the Injury roll. When this is free, it's good.

Veterans are usually pretty good. That free Move action at the start of the game is already a guaranteed XP. Get yourself into better Cover. Or front up to your opponent and get 'em. Either way, Movement is always strong and your Veterans are handy to have.

Zealot
Frenzied; +1 Strength, +1 Attack, in a Battle Round that the model Charges.

Exultant; Your opponent must re-roll unmodified 6s to hit whilst within 3" of this model.


Puritan; Re-roll to hit in the Fight phase if your opponent doesn't have the same Faction as you. lol.


Rousing; Your models within 6" of your Zealot gain +1 Ld.

Flagellant; Ignore Wounds (6+).


Fanatical; Auto-pass Nerve tests.


Strength of Spirit; This model gets -1 to Injury rolls.

Killing Frenzy; Rolling an unmodified 6 to hit in the Fight phase, generates another attack.
Martyr; Before your opponent goes to Injury roll, shoot with a ranged weapon, or make one attack with a Melee weapon. This can happen several times during a Mission. Unfortunately, it's 2 CPs, so it's really expensive.
Terrifying Rampage; If your Zealot kills a model in the Fight phase, all enemy models within 6" must take a Nerve test in the Morale phase. Really good.

Zealots are, surprisingly, extremely strong Melee models. Like, better than Combat Specialists.

[Brookshw]

Morale: If half of your models have Flesh Wounds or worse, start taking Morale tests. Once again; More models = More better. Because it raises that 'half' before your entire Team starts crumbling.


There's a balancing act here (in part depending on the make up of the armies and there abilities to spread out the wounds), a bunch of low leadership and relatively easy to wound orks/grots break easily, which then sucks because you can end up sitting there as a punching bag. One game I ended up moving exactly 1 model in two rounds because of being broken, and that 1 was due to spending a command point.

Beware t-shirt save armies with crappy Ld, deployed en-mass.

[LeSwordfish]

I never got around to posting the picture of my Night Lords that I got at Warhammer World, did I?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/425810502925549571/480326170961903616/20180818_105612.jpg

I'm pretty proud of this army en masse. I might pick up another few boxes of Raptors to finish it off, and another box of CSM so I can have enough troops for a batallion without going down to squads of five, but otherwise, job's a good'un.

EDIT: Also, I need to fix the Heldrake's wing.

[LCP]

They look really good! Do you have any other photos of the army?

[druid91]

I'm not referring to anything you've said in this thread Cheesegear, merely referring to our past clashes over what works on the tabletop and what doesn't.

[LeSwordfish]

They look really good! Do you have any other photos of the army?

They look rather less good close up, (that's my painting trademark, once a friend said "Now *this* is painting" when approaching my Eldar army, and then "oh" after actually picking one of the models up) but I finally got around to setting up the models instagram I wanted, so pictures are here (https://www.instagram.com/p/BnytuOtHrfK/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet).

[bluntpencil]

They look rather less good close up, (that's my painting trademark, once a friend said "Now *this* is painting" when approaching my Eldar army, and then "oh" after actually picking one of the models up) but I finally got around to setting up the models instagram I wanted, so pictures are here (https://www.instagram.com/p/BnytuOtHrfK/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet).

Is that a Daemon Prince with a horse's head?! Yes! So cool!

What's the idea behind that one?

[LeSwordfish]

Is that a Daemon Prince with a horse's head?! Yes! So cool!

What's the idea behind that one?

It is indeed! There's no greater "idea" other than that I wanted to do something cooler with the head than normal, and had a spare horse's head lying around. I ended up having to build up the base a lot so the model leaned backwards, or it was too obviously very definitely staring at the ground. Ended up looking pretty cool perched on the Spyral Prime rooftops.

[bluntpencil]

It is indeed! There's no greater "idea" other than that I wanted to do something cooler with the head than normal, and had a spare horse's head lying around. I ended up having to build up the base a lot so the model leaned backwards, or it was too obviously very definitely staring at the ground. Ended up looking pretty cool perched on the Spyral Prime rooftops.

Brilliant! I love it.

--

In other news, Kill-Team.

Guns with lots of shots are good: Spread out all those Flesh Wounds, and cause a break test. Hordes suck at Break Tests once you've popped a few of them. Guard are good until you start screwing with their morale. If they're Broken, they're in a world of trouble. Deathwatch Frag Cannons are awesome for this. Flamers are pretty damn useful.

Harlequins are basically cheating: Just like Eldar in Battlefleet Gothic, in Kill-Team, Harlequins are playing by different rules to everyone else. They charge 50% further, and ignore terrain to do so. Nobody else can pull these tricks. Smart Harlequins players hide everything turn one, and try to charge everything until one succeeds. Those successful charging Harlequins end up murdering all sorts. This defeats the whole point of the game being about dense terrain and elite squads sneaking around fighting each other. If we have Harlequins ignoring terrain, we may as well have Space Marines with jump packs. Possible fixes include forcing them to charge normally, not using flip belt brokenness - there is precedent in that Reivers with grapnel hooks can't use them to charge. Another potential fix is requiring line of sight to charge.

Necrons don't work the way they should: A meltagun is much less likely to kill a Necron Warrior than something less powerful - High damage weapons force you to roll multiple Injury dice - if any come up a 6, haha, the Necron is unharmed. I'd suggest that this be FAQd to a simple 6+ Feel No Pain, or roll dice to remove Flesh Wounds.

High damage weapons are awesome (except against Necrons): Extra injury rolls are handy. My Heavy Thunder Hammers are very much feared at the moment.

[Forum Explorer]

My kill team league started yesterday, so here's my first experiences.

Eldar Kill team

Dire Avenger Exarch with Power Galive and pistol (Leader): 12

Dire Avenger: 10
Dire Avenger: 10
Dire Avenger: 10

Guardian Defender: 7
Guardian Defender: 7

Heavy Weapon Platform with Starcannon: 11

Ranger (Comms): 11
Ranger (Sniper): 11
Ranger (Veteran): 11

Total: 100


Game 1: Vs 1000 sons.

He's got 2 Marines (1 with Soulreaper Cannon) and a Sorcerer. Then like 5 Tzaangors or so. The game basically goes like this. I got about 30 or so hits spread out throughout the game. I got 2/30 wounds and of those were both on a Marine. Who made both his saves. My Starcannon got 5 wounds through, but then he made 4/5 5++. In total I took out a single model, and called it when I started having to take break tests.

So yeah, crushing defeat, and nothing I could do about that.


Game 2: vs Harlequins

He's got 7 Harlequins. We're playing Feint and he's the attacker so he has to come to me. I set up further back then normal, so all of his charges were 11 or higher. So he tried for a few first turn charges (he won initative) but he didn't make it. So I get a full turn of shooting which is nice. In the end, a very close game, where literally everyone but 1 Guardian had flesh wounds, and the game came down to me rerolling a 5+ to keep a Dire Avenger alive and holding the final objective he needed to burn to win the game.


Overall:

Melee is super annoying to get out of. Also not having any good melee options makes things so hard for me. The Dire Avenger Exarch is amazing though, and so is the Starcannon. But LoS is a big pain for my Snipers. On a seperate note, I've been looking at the level ups and I think I'll only bring my Veteran and Sniper up to level 2. I don't think it's worth it to level up anyone else. Maybe a Fire Team up one level so I can just use the last 2 points.

[LCP]

Bad Horse looks amazing. I feel like you should get some Daemon allies and proxy these things (https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120207056_ETBGlaivewraithStalkers01.jpg) to be his mates.

[Drasius]

Psychic Phase: Psybolt is pretty rad 'cause it doesn't roll to hit. Unfortunately only two Factions in the game have access to it. So, we'll skip it for now.


I expect anti Thousand Sons bias from GW, but I expected better from you Cheese. For shame.

[Cheesegear]

Guide to Kill Team
Part 2 - Choosing a Kill Team (Imperium and Chaos)

Just in case you forgot;
More Shots = More Better; 6s will always hit. Additionally, models within 2" of each other can be targeted if your weapon has multiple shots. This means that weapons like Frag Grenades, Frag Missiles, Storm Bolters, Flamers, etc. are really strong, if only because they have the chance to put a Flesh Wound (or OoA) on multiple models off of the same attack. Amazingly, attacking multiple models doesn't even cause negs to hit.

Mortal Wounds read; 'Immediately make an Injury Roll.'

Toughness; Almost everything in the game is T3 or T4. With outliers T2 (Gretchin) and T5 (Plague Marines). That's all you need to focus on. S7+ just isn't that useful unless it comes with good AP and/or multi-Damage.
Wounds; Only one unit in the game has 4 Wounds (Lictors). D3 Damage weapons are more than good enough to get most jobs done. Surprisingly, the only unit with 3 Wounds in the game, is also Tyranids (Tyranid Warriors). Doing massive Damage is for the Injury roll...

Injury; Because of the way the Injury roll works, each unsaved Wound actually only has half a chance of removing a model. That means that weapons that deal multiple Damage, are just naturally better.

Leader; Leaders actually don't do what you think they do until at least Level 2. Anyone in your Kill Team could be your Leader, it only just seems to be a coincidence that models with the highest Leadership are the only ones with access to the Leader Specialism. The only reason to have a Leader is to get that extra CP per Round...So, make it resilient? You have to take one. So you may as well make it good, right?

Combat; Give them a multi-Damage Melee weapon.

Comms; Weirdly, the Rousing Transmission Level 1 Tactic is a better 'Leader' quality than anything that a Leader Specialist will ever do. In any case, stick your Comms model 6" away from one of your models with a powerful ranged weapon.

Demolitions; Give them a weapon that auto-hits (e.g; Flamers) and then start stacking To Wounds. That's easy.

Heavy; Unlike a Sniper, a Heavy actually likes Moving around. The ability to Move closer to your enemy without negs, also reduces the possibility of 'Long Range'. So, make sure that your Heavy carries a...*ahem*...Heavy or Assault weapon with as many shots as possible.

Medics; They don't actually do what you think they do until at least Level 2. Even then, you can choose for them not to be a Medic. Either way, Level 1s aren't really that good, and take up space in your Team that could be better used by other Specialists.

Scout; Once again, they don't actually do what they're supposed to until Level 3, and that's pretty bad.

Sniper; Just give it a good ranged weapon. They'll be good at Level 1, they're even better at Level 3. Expect your opponents to target them down pretty hard.

Veteran; The Level 1 Tactic should belong to the Scout. In any case, because of that single Tactic, Veterans are often going to be the best Melee models in your Team, since, y'know...They can actually make a Charge.

Zealot; Really, really good in Melee... If they can get there. Similar to your Snipers, even Level 1s are a fairly significant threat to any Team, and you can expect your opponent to take them out.

Remember, you can change your Kill Team every single Mission. You do not actually have to build a 'Take All Comers' Kill Team out of a limited pool of models. You can pick-and-choose what you bring based on what your opponent has. If you have any reasonable rapport with the players in your gaming group, you'll know what Faction they'll be playing.

Not every Faction has an Expansion Box (yet). You can still use Expansion Cards even if you aren't using the Team that comes with them.

<Imperium>

And They Shall Know No Fear: Re-roll Nerve. Solid.
Transhuman Physiology; Ignore one Flesh Wound on all of your models. This is pretty good...Except ~50% of the time it does nothing at all.

Scouts: At 10 Points a model, your Team can have 9 dudes in it ('cause you have to have a Leader, I'm not bad at maths). Boltguns are always useful to have. Shotguns are problematic because they have a 'long range' of 6". Sniper Rifles are actually really useful, because they ignore long range negs to hit and sometimes do Mortal Wounds - unfortunately, Camo Cloaks aren't optional for Rifle models, so they actually cost 12 Points. Don't ever be afraid to not Charge, and chuck a Grenade, if you can. However, your Team's Grenade attack for the turn is likely going to be used by another model if you aren't just spamming Scouts.
Scout Gunner: Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher or Rifle (and Cloak). Heavy Bolters are good. Frag Missiles are also extremely strong against the right opponent/Faction. In any case, Heavy Bolters give you access to the valuable Hellfire Shells Tactic, which makes most models in the game piss themselves. Camo Cloaks on Missile Launcher models are almost mandatory, because -2 to hit against a very valuable model is really important. Unfortunately, Heavy Bolters can't take Camo Cloaks.
Scout Sergeant: Nothing too special. Just strap on a Chainsword and run him at models with 4+ Armour or worse.
Tactical Marines: True to form, any Tactical Marine that isn't a Gunner or the Sergeant is a waste of points, and you're better off with Scouts or Intercessors.
Tactical Marine Gunner: Flamers and Plasma Guns are extremely strong. Grav-Guns make opposing Intercessors, Plague Marines and Rubrics cry. The problem with Grav-Guns, unfortunately, is that their 'sweet spot', is under 9"...And that's how you get Charged and all your ranged models turn to garbage. Still, if your opponent Charges you, you can always move 3" backwards. One other Gunner in your Team can have a Heavy Bolter or Missile Launcher...So can a Scout for 2 less Points. Scouts Gunner weapons aren't capped per-Team, so you can potentially run x3 Heavy Bolters if you really, really want to...And there isn't really anything wrong with that.
Tactical Sergeant: Sergeants are weird, because their wargear options are so weirdly defined.
- Trade Bolt Pistol and Boltgun for a Combi-Weapon; Your Combi-Weapon options pretty much make you a second Gunner, which is really handy to have that second Plasma weapon on the team, especially for dropping the bigger Tyranids. Trading away your Pistol as well seems pretty dumb. But okay.
- Trade your Bolt Pistol for any other Pistol - don't, all of them are basically a waste of points - and take a Chainsword, Power Sword, Power Fist or Auspex.
- An Auspex is an extremely valuable piece of wargear, as it can negate a target's Obscured bonus. But, the catch is that it takes the place of a Power Fist, which is your only multi-Damage Melee weapon...Then again, you're Space Marines. Why are you in Melee? Take the Auspex every time.
Reivers: Not a lot to say about Reivers. 2 Wounds and 3 Attacks each makes them strong in Melee, unfortunately there's simply no real way to get them there.
Reiver Sergeant: Make it a Veteran, with 4 Attacks, and slam into your opponent's models. Very few opposing models will know what to do in Melee against a model with two Wounds. If any model does look like it could give you the donkey punching, just use your free 1CP Move at the start of the game to avoid them. Not quite as strong as a Tactical Sergeant with a Power Fist, but it doesn't lose you your Auspex slot. Then again, a Reiver Sergeant is the most expensive model in your Faction.
Intercessors: You don't take 'em 'cause they remove your opponent's models. You take them because your opponent can't remove yours. That said, this is Kill Team, and don't ever underestimate the value of models that don't get Shaken easily.
Intercessor Gunner: Launch Krak Grenades 30". That's your Grenade attack for the turn. There is never a reason to take a second Intercessor Gunner in your Team because an AGL only changes the range of the Grenade, is doesn't change the fact that it is a Grenade, so you only get one per turn.
Intercessor Sergeant: Similar with other Intercessors...You take him 'cause he has 2 Wounds. That at least lets his Leadership 8 stick around on the board longer. Other than that, he doesn't really offer you anything that's particularly useful.

Death to the Traitors: If you're Fighting with Heretic Astartes, generate extra attacks on a 6+. Unfortunately, due to how Factions work in Kill Team, <Heretic Astartes> actually doesn't include Death Guard or Thousand Sons - and they're the ones you need this against!
Honour the Chapter: At the end of the Fight Phase, pick one of your models to Fight again. At 2 CPs, and at the end of the phase, you have to not be dead. Still, use it if you can. Reiver Sergeants will steamroll right through models.
Armour of Contempt: Ignore a Mortal Wound on a 5+...And then Ignore Mortal Wounds on a 5+ for the rest of the phase.
Hellfire Shells; Make a single to hit roll with a Heavy Bolter in your Team. Do D3 Mortal Wounds. This is...Problematic, since the rules for Kill Team enjoy stacking negs to hit and this Tactic costs two CPs. Ideally a Heavy Bolter will go on a Heavy to avoid long range penalties, and then throw on a Comms to make sure it hits... If it helps, Harlequins are fairly terrified of Space Marine Heavy Bolters. Then again, a Readied Sniper with a Heavy Bolter is also better...'Cause being Readied means that you don't get killed before you can do anything.
Masterful Marksmanship; An <Intercessor> with a Stalker Bolt Rifle gets +1 to wound. Ew.
Shock and Awe; A <Reiver> gets to chuck its Shock Grenade in the same turn it Charges. For two CPs, this is total garbage.

Fangs of Ulfrich Expansion
Battle-Brothers; If a model in your Team takes a Wound, before the Injury roll is made, another model in your Team within 3" can take a Mortal Wound instead. This is really good for protecting your Heavy Bolters. The range is 3", not 2" (so the 'other guy' hasn't been targeted yet). However, you've failed your Saving Throw anyway, except now, your Heavy Bolter model doesn't even die, and Mortal Wounds aren't even guaranteed to take models OoA anyway. Really good at 1 CP.
Death Denied; For 2 CPs, instead of going OoA, take a Flesh Wound instead. Go, go Transhuman Physiology!
Adaptive Strategy; 1 CP. When your Kill Team is Broken, immediately gain D3 CPs. Anything that gains you CPs is automatically useful. Especially if it can pay for itself.
Angel of Death; A model that Charged that turn gains +1 Attack. You're Space Marines. In Melee isn't really where you want to be...That's Deathwatch or Grey Knights. Use on Reiver Sergeants.
Auspex Scan; For 2 CPs one of your Readied models ignores all negative modifiers to hit. It's a shame you'll rarely have enough CPs to do this, and Hellfire Shells in the same turn.
Psychological Warfare; If a Reiver kills a model in the Turn (not neccessarily the Fight phase), all enemy models within 6" get -1 to Nerve. For 2 CPs it isn't that great. Since most Teams are going to have a Leader with +1 Leadership over normal models, so, for 2 CPs...This cancels out?

Know Your Enemy: Multi-Damage weapons make Astartes Kill Teams extremely wary. Flesh Wounds don't affect Astartes much, since they can ignore the first one, and they can re-roll Nerve tests. Multi-Damage weapons do more rolls on the Injury table which means that Astartes are more likely to go OoA, than hang around.

And They Shall Know No Fear: Re-roll Nerve. Solid.
Transhuman Physiology; Ignore one Flesh Wound on all of your models. This is pretty good...Except ~50% of the time it does nothing at all.
Special Issue Ammunition: Whenever you use a Bolt weapon (that isn't the Infernus), consider what your target is, and gain a positive modifier...
Dragonfire Bolt; +1 to hit targets that are Obscured. Basically cancelling it out.
Hellfire Round; Always wound on a 2+. This sometimes translates to a +2 bonus and is almost always going to be the best.
Kraken Bolt; +3" range and -1 AP. If this would take your weapon into short range, good. That's +2.
Vengeance Round; -3" range and -2 AP. Sure.

Deathwatch Veteran: At 14 Points each, you can have up to 7 dudes in your Team (including +2 Points for Leader). Or, you can have 5-6 dudes kitted out to win games. The Deathwatch's customisability makes them extremely strong when you start switching out models depending on who your opponent is. Even their regular Boltguns for 0 Points are still extremely effective against almost every target you can think of. Deathwatch Shotguns can pop Guardsmen and Cultists, whilst you can get Combi-Plasmas (remember your Sniper Specialism, and Rival Chapters ) to take out some of the heavier stuff. Stalker Boltguns are absolutely a trap. Melee Veterans are also pretty strong when you strap on a Storm Shield. Not quite as broken as Harlequins. But your opponents might just hate you anyway.
Deathwatch Veteran Gunner: Deathwatch Frag Cannons might just be the best model in the game. However, you're paying 21 Points for the privilege, without any protection, and Deathwatch lack access to Medic Specialists for literally no reason. So be prepared to either hide this guy, or expect him to get rolled. Always take two against Melee armies for Overwatch. Weirdly, Frag Cannons are uncapped per Team, and you can have 4... Giving you 16 Points for a Leader. :smalleek:
Black Shield: Natural ability to re-roll Charges is pretty good. Give him a Power Maul, Storm Shield, and Veteran or Zealot and send him in.
Watch Sergeant: Take a Xenophase Blade against Harlequins. Otherwise your Boltgun or Combi-Plasma model will do just fine.
Reivers: Always swap the Carbine for a Knife. Deathwatch makes you pay Points for Bolt Pistols, which means that a Reiver is paying even more points for a Carbine.
Reiver Sergeant: Same. But with more Melee attacks. He rolls extremely hard in Melee as a Veteran (unfortunately, Primaris Marines don't know about the Emperor, and don't get Zealot like other Deathwatch models do). Unfortunately, costing 19 Points (*grumble something about Bolt Pistols actually costing points*) means that your Melee monster takes the place of one of your Frag Cannons. However, that extra two Points that you pick up can be spent to give your Watch Sergeant a Power Maul just to knock skulls.
Intercessors: Avoid like the plague. At 20 Points each, you don't have 10 Point Scouts to make up numbers, and you lose access to all of the extremely valuable valuable multi-Damage weapons and wargear that pushes Hordes' poop in.
Intercessor Gunner: Are you dense?
Intercessor Sergeant: What are you doing?
Hellfire Shell; The Deathwatch version of this is 1 CP. Extremely strong. That said, picking up the Infernus Heavy Bolter reduces your ability to pick up Frag Cannons. So you'd damn well hope that it'd be worth it.
Only in Death Does Duty End; 2 CPs to Shoot or Fight immediately after being taken OoA.
Decapitation Doctrine; One of your models gets re-rolls To Wound against the enemy Leader for a single phase.
Rival Chapters; Choose two models within 2" of each other. Pay 1 CP to give them both re-roll 1s to hit for a phase. Very strong. Spam Combi-Plasmas all day. The name of the Tactic is also cool. :smallamused:

Kill Team Mordelai Expansion - The Tactics found in this Expansion are excellent.
Priority Execution; Give a model +1 to wound in the Fight phase.
Death to the Alien!; In the Fight phase, against a Xeno model, generate an extra attack on 5+ to hit.
Tactical Disengagement; Fall Back (6") and shoot for 1 CP.
The Beheading; 2 CPs. All of your attacks re-roll to wound against enemy Leader.
Unrelenting; Move and shoot without penalties.
My Armour is Contempt; Ignore a Mortal Wound on a 5+...And then Ignore Mortal Wounds on a 5+ for the rest of the phase.

Know Your Enemy: Deathwatch can pretty much do anything they want. Whatever defenses your Kill Team has, doesn't matter. Deathwatch will simply tailor to kill your Faction with prejudice. Just lean extremely hard into however your Faction kills Marines (multi-Damage weapons), and pray that your opponent doesn't have access to Storm Shield models. Deathwatch max out a 7 models, and tailoring gives them less. Try and pop their Watch Sergeant ASAP, because he's handing out Leadership 9 with re-rolls to Nerve.

And They Shall Know No Fear: Re-roll Nerve. Solid.
Transhuman Physiology; Ignore one Flesh Wound on all of your models. This is pretty good...Except ~50% of the time it does nothing at all.
Psybolt; Roll a 5+ on 2d6 and the closest model to your caster takes Mortal Wound. Nice. No-one can even attempt to stop you except for Thousand Sons.

Grey Knights: Good at Melee, good at Shooting. Just do a Mortal Wound every Round. There's not a lot that Grey Knights can't do. However, they make up for their incredible strength by 'just' being Space Marines. They don't have Invulnerables, unless in the Fight phase. But, since they're Space Marines, and Grey Knights to boot, you don't want to be in Melee with them anyway - even when they don't have Invulnerables. All their Melee attacks come with multi-Damage to further mess with anyone who even tries to mess with them in Melee. Always bring a Veteran for the free Move, just to guarantee you're going to give someone a bad day.
[B]Grey Knights Gunner: Avoid the Psycannon. Take the Psilencer or Incinerator - both uncapped, tailor hard. Whilst not quite as brutal as a Deathwatch Frag Cannon, they're still pretty good.
Justiciar: It sucks that your Team is capped at 1, and he has to be your Leader. Otherwise he'd make a great Veteran or Zealot. But what are you going to do? Complain that the Grey Knights aren't strong enough? Anyway, the extra Attack makes him super good with Falchions. Just remember that they're 2 Points, because you have to pay for two of them.

Psybolt Ammunition; A Storm Bolter becomes S5 and AP-1. Not bad.
Honour the Chapter; Pick one of your models at the end of the Fight phase. Fight again.
Psychic Channelling; Roll 3d6 and pick the highest two.
Heed the Prognosticars; 2 CPs gives one of your models +1 to Saves until the end of the Round.

Know Your Enemy: For God's sake, spread out. Every single one of them is packing Storm Bolters. And the ones that don't have Storm Bolters, have Psilencers or Incinerators instead. In a firefight with your models, they'll almost always win. In Melee, they'll almost always win, too. Your go-to against Grey Knights is that you absolutely should have more dudes than they do, and just focus your fire. Even with -1 to hit from a Flesh Wound (two of them, BTW, 'cause Grey Knights are Space Marines and ignore one), they've still got four shots each, and they will hit you if you don't take them OoA. Make sure to pop their Comms early if they have one. You don't want to be Storm Bolter'd with Psybolt Ammunition up.

Voice of Command: Unlike most Kill Teams, Guardsmen actually require their Leader to be alive to actually do useful stuff. And thing is...Pick a non-Shaken model within 12" and do a thing:
Take Aim!; Re-roll 1s to hit. Plasma is your friend.
Bring it Down!; Re-roll 1s to wound. Flamers are your friend.
Forwards, For the Emperor!; The model can Advance and Shoot in the same turn without penalties. Really good on your Hot-Shot Volley Guns.
Get Back in the Fight!; Fall Back and Shoot.
Move! Move! Move!; The model can Advance instead of Shooting.
Fix Bayonets!; The model can Fight in the Shooting phase. Sometimes useful.
Infantry Squad: At 5 Points each, you can pack 20 models in your Kill Team and just spam people with Lasguns. Unfortunately, that doesn't work so well as you'd think. Vox-Casters are excellent, not least because a Comms model also hands out +1 to hit to a ranged model, and you get to re-roll Nerve tests. What's not to like?
Guardsman Gunner: Ridiculously, they don't cost any extra Points over a regular Guardsmen. As usual, your choices generally fluctuate between Flamers and Plasma Guns.
Sergeant: Nothing much to say. He's not as survivable as a Tempestor. And you're Guard, which means your Leader not being dead actually matters.
Special Weapons Squad: ...But why?
Special Weapons Gunner: For literally no extra points (:smallyuk:), just add three more Special Weapons into your Team. Guard are ridiculous.
Militarum Tempestus Scions: For twice the points of a regular Guardsman, throw on some Armour and AP rounds in your Lasguns. Not really worth it.
Scion Gunner: MOAR Special Weapons. Up to 4. Guardsmen are really, really dumb. Hot-Shot Volley Guns are better than Plasma Guns for the same cost. Except against certain targets where multi-Damage becomes a factor (which is all models, always). So...Plasma Guns.
Tempestor: He's got 4+ Armour which means he's slightly more survivable than the regular Sergeant, and since you're Guard, having your Leader not be dead is kind of important. With the WS3+ and an extra Attack, he's actually not terrible in Melee, so strap on a Power Fist and hopefully try not to die.
Defensive Stand; Overwatch on a 5+.
Cunning Strategy; Your Leader can issue a second Order this turn, for 2 CPs.
Get Down!; When your model is targeted, and your model is Obscured, add another -1 to hit.
Reserves of Courage; Roll a D3 for Nerve instead of D6. Very good for 1 CP.

Drop Force Imperator Expansion
Reconnaissance Protocols; 1 CP to move a <Tempestus Scion> 2d6" at the start of the first Battle Round. It's basically the Vetran Tactic, but not as reliable (but also potentially way better) and doesn't give your model XP when you use it - because it isn't a Specialist Tactic. Still. If you're spamming Flamers this works very well.
Sir, Yes Sir!; 2 CPs. Everyone within 3" of an Ordered model - excepting the Leader - also benefits from the Order. Are you bringing Plasma yet!?
Adrenal Shot; 5+ to ignore a Mortal Wound, then ignore Mortal Wounds (5+) for the rest of the phase.
Fight to the Death; One of your models gets -1 to Injury.
Vengeance for Cadia!; When a model shoots at a <Heretic Astartes>, re-roll to hit or to wound.
Grenadiers; Pay 1 CP for your Team to throw an additional Grenade. The Tactic explicitly lets you use it multiple times in the same phase. Nice.

Sector Imperialis - Mission Critical Supplies; -1 to Nerve whilst within 1" of a Armoured Container. Nobody cares.

Know Your Enemy: Guardsmen can very easily fit 8 Plasma Guns into 100 Points because they hate you, or they can bring the same amount of Flamers. If you're going to firefight, just pray that they've clumped together and bring a lot of shots. If you're a Melee army...You've already lost, because you'll never get a Charge off.

Canticles of the Omnissiah: At the start of a Round, pick a Canticle, and you can't pick the same one twice. Alternatively, you can random roll, and you get whatever you get, even if you've already had it.
1. Re-roll Nerve.
2. Enemy models within 1" of your models at the start of the Fight phase take a Mortal Wound on a '6'.
3. Re-roll 1s to hit in the Fight phase.
4. When your models is Obscured, -2 to hit.
5. +1 Strength for your Team. Nice.
6. Your Team re-rolls 1s to hit in the Shooting phase
Skitarii Rangers: Unlike 'real 40K', Rangers cost the same as Vanguard, which means that Vanguard end up being 'just better', seeing as how 2 Damage is better than AP-1. Also, more shots on the Vanguard = more better. It's important to note that one Ranger in your list can take a Data-tether or Omnispex. Whilst a Vanguard can also take a Data-Tether or Omnispex. You can have both if you want...But the Data-Tether is costing you 5 Points, when you can just pick #1 on the on Canticles when it comes time to do it. However, the Data-Tether is useful on your Stratagems...As mentioned, you can pick up both if you want... Still, 5 Points is a lot, and it's always worth pointing out that non-Specialist Tactics - especially ones that cost 2 CPs - don't earn you any XP.
Ranger Gunners: Similar to Astra Militarum, if it's your bag, you should be running six Special Weapons in your Team. Arc Rifles for most stuff. Plasma Calivers for everything else. Tailor as-needed.
Ranger Alpha: Since Rangers are the same cost - and worse - than Vanguard, the Alpha is simply more of the same.
Skitarii Vanguard: Do a bunch of stuff. 6+ to wound causes 2 Damage instead of 1. Pretty good. But...Then again...Anyone who isn't carrying a Special Weapon is a waste of points.
Vanguard Gunners: Identical to Ranger Gunners, except anyone trying to Melee them is at -1 Toughness for free.
Vanguard Alpha: Identical to a Ranger Alpha, except anyone trying to Melee him is at -1 Toughness for free. Which pairs well with most of the Canticles making your Melee attacks better. Then again, if you were trying to Melee, wouldn't you be better off with...
Sicarian Ruststalkers: 2 Wounds, 4+ Save, 6+ Invulnerable. Lots of attacks. Zealot is nice.
Ruststalker Princeps: Best Melee model you own. Why are Transonic Blades free? No-one knows. Throw on Veteran and run at people. Go, go, Gadget Blender! Doing stacks of Mortal Wounds even ignores Harlequins' Invulnerable save. But, remember your Ruststalkers are still only T3, and can be in for a very bad time against the wrong weapons.
Sicarian Infiltrators: Basically they're Ruststalkers, except they have ranged weapons that can occasionally kill Cultists.
Infiltrator Princeps: Like a Ruststalker Princeps except not as good with less attacks that don't ignore Invulnerables sometimes.
Conqueror Doctrina Imperative; Give a model +1 to hit in the Fight phase. If your model is within 6" of a Data-Tether, +2. Anywhere near opposing models isn't where you want your Data-Tether to be. Then again, Taser effects don't happen on unmodified rolls, so you'll do a lot of hits with a Taser everytime you roll a 4+...So, not bad. But certainly not that good for 2 CPs.
Protector Doctrina Imperiative; Give a model +1 to hit in the Shooting phase. If your model is within 6" of a Data-Tether, +2. Much better for cancelling out negs to hit because the Shooting phase is where all the negs are. Get a Plasma Sniper to re-roll 1s. Get a Comms, maybe and stack for +3 to hit with Overcharged Plasma. Exceptionally strong and for 2 CPs, it had better be.
Dunestrider; Roll 2d6 and pick the highest for Advancing.
Gloria Mechanicus; Re-roll your Canticle for the turn.

Gamma-Zhul-881 'Expansion' (a.k.a. The Starter Set)
Auto-Tracking Software; Overwatch on a 5+.
Hyper-Penetrative Shot; For 2 CPs, after you shoot an Arquebus (which you didn't take 'cause they're garbage), your target doesn't get any negs on the Injury roll...So...You use it before you roll to hit, before you roll to wound, before your opponent makes their Save, and then you go to Injury roll? For 2 CPs? Really? You're using a 5 Point weapon and the Tactic to make it any good is 2 CPs? ...Yeah, no.
Optimal Conditions; All your dudes get +1 to Charge for the phase. Not bad.
Scryer-Skull; Basically useless. Except when it isn't. You'll know.
Stablisation Actuators; Re-roll Fall tests. Basically useless. Except when it isn't.
Transonic Attunement; One of your <Ruststalkers> gets +1 to wound for the Fight phase. Really strong for doing Mortal Wounds and murdering things.

Know Your Enemy: They're less Guardsmen with (bad) Invulnerable saves. Including the bit where they spam Special Weapons. Maybe they'll bring one or two Blender-bots, and those you really need to worry about. Because you'll be taking Mortal Wounds left and right and you wont be able to stop it. Especially if they're smart about how they use their Canticles.

<Chaos>

Mark of Chaos: It doesn't really do anything, except determine which Icon you take - if any.
Khorne; Within 6" of the Icon your models can re-roll Charges. It also happens to cost 5 Points and your models aren't even that good in Melee anyway - just like regular Astartes. The only real reason to run exactly one <Khorne> model is so that you can make it a Veteran and pop the Khorne Tactic on it. In which case it's a Veteran, and doesn't really need to re-roll Charges because it's not a scrub.
Tzeentch; Roll a '6' at the start of the Psychic phase. The closest enemy model to the Icon takes a Mortal Wound. So it costs a point and barely does anything? Cool.
Nurgle; Enemy models have -1 Leadership whilst within 6" of the Icon.
Slaanesh; Death to the False Emperor procs on a 5+...Which means it's only good for Marine-heavy Teams which means that it's not very good. It also sucks that it's five points.
Undivided; Your models have +1 Leadership near the Icon. Very good if you have a lot of Cultists. Which you should.
Cultists: At 4 Points each, Cultists are your bread-and-butter. Just spam models on the board, and give all of them Autoguns. For their cost, they'll put the hurt on any Kill Team that they look at. Conversely...They're Cultists. Anyone who looks at them funny, is going to kill all or even most of them. A Cultists' job is to try and get into Melee with opposing Plasma weapons to let your bigger, meaner Chaos Marines live longer.
Cultist Gunner: Surprisingly efficient and still don't cost you anything. None of them will ever make it past Level 1. A Heavy Heavy Stubber, or a Demolitions Flamer. It's not that hard to figure out.
Cultist Champion: You're not a Faction that needs a Leader. Make a Cultist your Leader which should hopefully take some heat off of your Big Guys.
Chaos Space Marines: Chaos Space Marines...Just aren't that good. For every Marine in your Roster, you could have three Cultists instead, all churning out Injury rolls. As long as you're smart (which you are, right?) and spread your Cultists out, it's not like your opponent can kill them very fast. Maybe you might take a <Khorne> model, to take advantage of the Tactic. But you really don't need to, 'cause Veteran does the same thing, better, for less Command Points and more XP. An Icon is nice to have. But you don't really need it. Chaos Marines also have the Transhuman Physiology rule which means that they'll ignore the first Flesh Wound that they take.
Chaos Space Marine Gunner: Similar to Loyalist Astartes, any model that isn't a Gunner is simply taking up space. Unfortunately, Chaos Marines don't have all that many models to choose from, which means that you'll end up with 2 Gunners. And, like other Astartes - except for Deathwatch, the good ones - your squad is actually capped on the types of weapons that they can take, regardless of the number many Gunners you may actually have. So...Have a dude with a Flamer. Have a dude with a Plasma Gun. Then put a dude with a Heavy Bolter on your Roster just in case. The rest...Is Cultists.
Aspiring Champion: It's stupid. But being Broken is based on the highest Leadership on your Team. Not the Leadership of your Leader - which is what would make sense. Run an Aspiring Champion as a Veteran, make a Cultist Champion your Leader instead. Throw on a Power Fist. Make him <Khorne> if you want to...Roll hard. Especially against <Imperium> armies with Death to the False Emperor starts happening. Of course, this is almost guaranteed to get your Champion killed every single time. But hey? What else are you gonna do except spam Cultists and win games.

Veterans of the Long War; Unlike 'real 40K', GW remembered that this shouldn't really be usable on Cultists. Anyway, 2 CPs to give one of your dudes +1 to wound in a phase.
Fury of Khorne; Pick a <Khorne> model to Fight again at the end of the Fight phase. Only reason to run exactly one Khorne model...It's also the only Tactic that's Mark-specific. Here's hoping the Chaos Expansion does...Something.
Daemon Spirit; At the end of the Movement phase, pick an enemy model within 1" of your Leader. 4+ they take a Mortal Wound.
Beseech the Gods; At the start of the first Battle Round, pick one of your models. On a 1, they take D3 Mortal Wonds (ouch!), or, they get +1 to hit and wound for the rest of the Mission. You will always roll a '1' because the dice always hate you and what are you even doing?

Know Your Enemy: Cultists are cheaper than Guardsmen! A standard Chaos Team is going to be 2-4 Marines, and then 16-18 Cultists. Whatever makes 20. Although at the start of a campaign, the Chaos Team is limited to 12 models...So, maybe they'll have more Marines. You don't need to take Cultists OoA. They're garbage. One Flesh Wound effectively removes them from the game (except a Cultist with a Flamer...Kill that guy). What you really need to do is target down the Chaos Marine with the highest Leadership (it's always either the one with the Plasma Gun, or the one currently wrecking your Team's backfield and screaming about murder), then hopefully Break your opponent before his 25+ shots per round get lucky rolling multiple 6s in a row. Whilst Guardsmen spamming Special Weapons is one of the most deadly Teams alive. A Chaos Team spamming spud guns is actually a really close second.

Disgustingly Resilient: Every single model in your Team can't lose wounds if they just roll a 5+. This is really strong, especially when it's Team-wide. It's also better than Invulnerables because it works against Mortal Wounds. So...Yeah.

Plague Marine: Unlike other Astartes Teams where standard models with Boltguns are totally useless (e.g; Adeptus and Heretic Astartes), Plague Marines have T5, Ignore Wounds (5+), and Transhuman Physiology on top of it. Extremely solid models, based purely on the fact that they don't even die. Additionally, instead of Bolt Pistols that don't do anything at all, Plague Marines carry Plague Knives which actually do stuff. On top of that, Blight Grenades are just better Frag Grenades...Because Plague Marines just have to be better for no reason.
Plague Marine Gunner: Unfortunately, Plague Marines lack the Sniper Specialism. So Overcharging Plasma isn't typically the greatest idea. Fortunately, Plague Marines have some really good auto-hit weapons which pair amazingly well with Demolitions or Heavy. And because you're T5 with Ignore Wounds, it's not like you even care about getting close to your opponent (unless they have really powerful Melee weapons...Then again, D6 auto-hits with super strong weapons will make models hesitate to Charge you anyway). Even better, in a standard 8" Deployment, Plague Marines have 9" range weapons means you'll be in range with being able to auto-hit, even if you Ready on Turn 1. So yeah. Good stuff. Weapons aren't even capped.
Plague Marine Fighter: Flails of Corruption and Cleavers are rad. Remember that you only have a 5" Move, so Veteran is pretty important, whilst a second Fighter just gets sad that he can't ever make it into Melee. So far, there doesn't seem to be any reason at all to give a Fighter two Plague Knives. Hopefully FAQ'd soon - 'cause you're giving up your Boltgun for literally nothing.
Plague Champion: Plagueswords are 0 Points. So take one. You can also take a Plasma Gun, which is weird...Then again, you can't Sniper, and Plasma s'plosions bypass your ability to Ignore Wounds...Still...You don't have to Overcharge. Just don't make dumb choices by Overcharging when you can die...Then again, a Plasma Gun is a third Special Weapon in your Team and there's no reason not to take one. If that wasn't enough, in addition to a Plague Sword (free), and the Plasma Gun...A Plague Champion can also take a Power Fist, back up one of the Plague Fighters and actually smash face using the Leader Level 1 Tactic which gets more XP. Very, very good. And neccessary...
Poxwalkers: ...Because Poxwalkers only have Ld 4. Poxwalkers are the dumbest unit to exist. T3 with the ability to Ignore Wounds (5+). Remember, ignoring wounds is basically an Invulnerable...Except when it isn't. But Poxwalkers also have 2 attacks each - and 6s always hit. Additionally, one of the better Tactics in the entire game...They can actually get more Poxwalkers as the game goes along for 1 CP. Guess how many points? ...Yep. 3. 3. Points. That's less than a Guardsman. That's less than a Cultist! So, yeah...Death Guard are also a really strong Kill Team because hordes will always win games.

Putrid Splatter; If one of your models dies in the Fight phase, roll a 6 for each model within 1", that model takes a Mortal Wound. Haha. Good joke. 2 CPs for an ~83% chance to fail. What a crock.
Cloud of Flies; Your opponent literally can't shoot at one of your models. Hot damn!
Veterans of the Long War; A <Plague Marine> gets +1 to wound for a phase against <Imperium> models.
Grandfather's Blessing; Roll a D6 at the start of the first Round. On a '1', take D3 Mortal Wounds. On a 2+, get +1 to hit and +1 to wound for the entire Mission.
Nurgling Infestation; Pick an enemy within 1" of your Leader at the end of Movement phase. On a 4+ that model takes a Mortal Wound.
Nurgle's Gift; If a Poxwalker kills an enemy model in the Fight phase, on a 4+, you get to set up a Poxwalker model within 1". For 1 CP this is really good. No, really good. Like...Who's idea was this? And why is it only 1 CP?

Know Your Enemy: You're probably going to look across the board at ~15 Poxwalkers and 4 Plague Marines. Somehow, there are players that think just x6 Plague Marines is better... They're wrong. In any case; Plague Marines die to Plasma, same as everything else in the game. And Poxwalkers die to Flamers...Kind of. You can't do **** against Cloud of Flies, and you really can't do anything if the Death Guard player decides that three Poxwalkers don't actually mean anything, and show up with 10 Points less than you, and starting rocking out with extra Command Points per Round because all their Stratagems cost 2...Giving them 1 more Command Point per Round to make a new Poxwalker. Another very powerful <Chaos> Team because hordes are really, really good, and their 'Big Guys' that hold the Team together aren't too expensive. Hell, Poxwalkers come in snap-fit boxes. :smallsigh:

Rubric Marines: Coming in at 16 Points each, minimum, Rubric Marines are some of the most expensive models in the game. However, bringing with them All is Dust means that against most attacks, they'll be packing a 2+ Save as well as their 5+ Invulnerable save so that things actually do very little damage, even if they do have AP. Because if the Damage is 1, then Rubrics don't really care. A Demolitions Specialist with a Warpflamer is going to cost even more points. However a Veteran with a Warpflamer will also get into range of pretty much everything if you want to do that, too.
Rubric Marine Gunner: Giving Heavy doesn't really mean anything, because you're rocking that All is Dust anyway. However, that Soulreaper Cannon is extremely strong, and adding on the Heavy Tactic makes it even stronger. Expect this model to get fired upon real bad.
Aspiring Sorcerer: An Aspiring Sorcerer loses All is Dust, and gains Transhuman Physiology, instead. Additionally, he gets to cast Psybolt. Grey Knights are the only ones who can stop him. It might even be worth making your Aspiring Sorcerer a Combat Specialist or a Veteran and try and actually get that Force Stave into Melee and start breaking heads. Thousand Sons don't really care who the Leader is, but, Sorcerers are Ld8, and you do need them.
Tzaangor: Similar to...A lot of things. Tzaangors come with a pretty decent Melee weapon, with WS3+. You can trade that decent Melee weapon for a trash Autopistol that will never do anything, and use BS4+ to make attacks. Cool. Don't bother. Brayhorns are a little expensive for what they do. But, it's not like it'll make your Team any worse for it. Tzaangors are very similar to Poxwalkers, in that they're a fairly numerous Melee horde that's actually pretty resilient using their Invulnerable save of 5+ - same as the Rubrics. Unfortunately, at 7 Points each, Tzaangors are not Poxwalkers, and Rubrics are actually really, really good shooters. So basically what happens, because all of your models are expensive, you can run Rubrics or Tzaangors, and very rarely should you run both, unless you're running few Tzaangors because you took a Twistbray and you need to fill up points on the rest.
Twistbrays: You take Twistbrays because you're using your Sorcerer to push peoples' heads in using the Force Stave. Whilst the Twistbray does the 'Leader' thing with the rest of the 'Gors.

Sorcerous Focus; Psybolt gains +6" on its range. Except Psybolt always targets the closest model, so range doesn't matter because how will you ever not be in range to use Psybolt? 2 CPs is absolutely awful because it doesn't take into account how Psybolt actually works.
Immovable Automaton; When a Rubic Marine (not the Sorcerer) gets taken OoA, for 2 CPs, on a 4+, they take a Flesh Wound instead. 2 CPs to fail 50% of the time. Sounds rad! Additionally, Rubrics are made out of dust, and don't have Transhuman Physiology, so giving them Flesh Wounds (for 2 CPs, lol) actually hurts. Another garbage Tactic that you should rarely - if ever! - use.
Veterans of the Long War; Standard <Chaos> fare. Give one of your Rubrics +1 to wound in any phase against <Imperium> models.
Cycle of Slaughter; For 2 CPs a <Tzaangor> can Fight a second time at the end of the phase. Pretty standard.
Malicious Familiar; At the end of the Move phase, a model within 1" of your Leader takes a Mortal Wound on a 4+. Pretty decent for 1 CP.
Hungering Warpflame; When you shoot a Flame weapon, roll 2d6 for shots, and pick the highest. Pretty solid.

Know Your Enemy: Rubics only get +1 Armour against attacks that deal 1 Damage. You know what attacks don't do 1 Damage? ...Plasma. The AP-3 will shaft them back to their Invulnerable, and just...Try your best. At the end of the day, they're basically just Primaris Marines with an Invulnerable save...And they all might even have Flamers so you can't even Charge them...So...Uh...Rubrics are really, really good. But still, they're 'just' Space Marines, and the weapons you use for that should be universal. Ditto for Tzaangors. However you're dealing with Melee hordes...They're another one, except with an Invulnerable. Because screw you.

More to come over the next week.

[9mm]

Masterful marksmanship is +1 to hit and wound, not just wound. It isn't great but can be very useful to get that -2 ap shot through.

side question: how are people basing their marines? I'm having decision paralysis on how I want to base my kill team.

[Cheesegear]

side question: how are people basing their marines? I'm having decision paralysis on how I want to base my kill team.

Whatever 'realistic' colour compliments the colour of their Power Armour. If your army, however, is...Say...Yellow, making your complimentary colour purple...Well, that's not the colour of any ground I know, so you can always go with blacks, greys or whites regardless of the colour of your Power Armour.

[Ionbound]

I mean purple works if their primary enemy is Chaos, so you can say they're fighting on some daemon-world.

[LansXero]

Necromunda bases are nice, and easy to recast. Heroes go on corkboard of course.

[bluntpencil]

Got some bits to make some Scottish troops from Victoria miniatures yesterday.

Pros:

Gorgeous miniatures.
Fantastic service (Victoria Lamb is extraordinarily nice and helpful with communications).
Not Cadians or Catachans.

Cons (error on my part, obviously):

Well, I didn't realise how different in waist size the male legs were from the female torsos. The guys have calves of a similar size to the ladies' waists! I had bought male kilt legs for my male and female guard, thinking the size difference would be nothing serious. How wrong I was. There's no way to make those torsos fit those legs. A friend has different kilt legs coming from another company, so I'll try those out. If they don't work, I'll use male Cadian torsos for the girls.

[Cheesegear]

Next three Kill Teams.

Voice of Command: Unlike most Kill Teams, Guardsmen actually require their Leader to be alive to actually do useful stuff. And thing is...Pick a non-Shaken model within 12" and do a thing:
Take Aim!; Re-roll 1s to hit. Plasma is your friend.
Bring it Down!; Re-roll 1s to wound. Flamers are your friend.
Forwards, For the Emperor!; The model can Advance and Shoot in the same turn without penalties. Really good on your Hot-Shot Volley Guns.
Get Back in the Fight!; Fall Back and Shoot.
Move! Move! Move!; The model can Advance instead of Shooting.
Fix Bayonets!; The model can Fight in the Shooting phase. Sometimes useful.
Infantry Squad: At 5 Points each, you can pack 20 models in your Kill Team and just spam people with Lasguns. Unfortunately, that doesn't work so well as you'd think. Vox-Casters are excellent, not least because a Comms model also hands out +1 to hit to a ranged model, and you get to re-roll Nerve tests. What's not to like?
Guardsman Gunner: Ridiculously, they don't cost any extra Points over a regular Guardsmen. As usual, your choices generally fluctuate between Flamers and Plasma Guns.
Sergeant: Nothing much to say. He's not as survivable as a Tempestor. And you're Guard, which means your Leader not being dead actually matters.
Special Weapons Squad: ...But why?
Special Weapons Gunner: For literally no extra points (:smallyuk:), just add three more Special Weapons into your Team. Guard are ridiculous.
Militarum Tempestus Scions: For twice the points of a regular Guardsman, throw on some Armour and AP rounds in your Lasguns. Not really worth it.
Scion Gunner: MOAR Special Weapons. Up to 4. Guardsmen are really, really dumb. Hot-Shot Volley Guns are better than Plasma Guns for the same cost. Except against certain targets where multi-Damage becomes a factor (which is all models, always). So...Plasma Guns.
Tempestor: He's got 4+ Armour which means he's slightly more survivable than the regular Sergeant, and since you're Guard, having your Leader not be dead is kind of important. With the WS3+ and an extra Attack, he's actually not terrible in Melee, so strap on a Power Fist and hopefully try not to die.
Defensive Stand; Overwatch on a 5+.
Cunning Strategy; Your Leader can issue a second Order this turn, for 2 CPs.
Get Down!; When your model is targeted, and your model is Obscured, add another -1 to hit.
Reserves of Courage; Roll a D3 for Nerve instead of D6. Very good for 1 CP.

Drop Force Imperator Expansion
Reconnaissance Protocols; 1 CP to move a <Tempestus Scion> 2d6" at the start of the first Battle Round. It's basically the Vetran Tactic, but not as reliable (but also potentially way better) and doesn't give your model XP when you use it - because it isn't a Specialist Tactic. Still. If you're spamming Flamers this works very well.
Sir, Yes Sir!; 2 CPs. Everyone within 3" of an Ordered model - excepting the Leader - also benefits from the Order. Are you bringing Plasma yet!?
Adrenal Shot; 5+ to ignore a Mortal Wound, then ignore Mortal Wounds (5+) for the rest of the phase.
Fight to the Death; One of your models gets -1 to Injury.
Vengeance for Cadia!; When a model shoots at a <Heretic Astartes>, re-roll to hit or to wound.
Grenadiers; Pay 1 CP for your Team to throw an additional Grenade. The Tactic explicitly lets you use it multiple times in the same phase. Nice.

Sector Imperialis - Mission Critical Supplies; -1 to Nerve whilst within 1" of a Armoured Container. Nobody cares.

Know Your Enemy: Guardsmen can very easily fit 8 Plasma Guns into 100 Points because they hate you, or they can bring the same amount of Flamers. If you're going to firefight, just pray that they've clumped together and bring a lot of shots. If you're a Melee army...You've already lost, because you'll never get a Charge off.

Canticles of the Omnissiah: At the start of a Round, pick a Canticle, and you can't pick the same one twice. Alternatively, you can random roll, and you get whatever you get, even if you've already had it.
1. Re-roll Nerve.
2. Enemy models within 1" of your models at the start of the Fight phase take a Mortal Wound on a '6'.
3. Re-roll 1s to hit in the Fight phase.
4. When your models is Obscured, -2 to hit.
5. +1 Strength for your Team. Nice.
6. Your Team re-rolls 1s to hit in the Shooting phase
Skitarii Rangers: Unlike 'real 40K', Rangers cost the same as Vanguard, which means that Vanguard end up being 'just better', seeing as how 2 Damage is better than AP-1. Also, more shots on the Vanguard = more better. It's important to note that one Ranger in your list can take a Data-tether or Omnispex. Whilst a Vanguard can also take a Data-Tether or Omnispex. You can have both if you want...But the Data-Tether is costing you 5 Points, when you can just pick #1 on the on Canticles when it comes time to do it. However, the Data-Tether is useful on your Stratagems...As mentioned, you can pick up both if you want... Still, 5 Points is a lot, and it's always worth pointing out that non-Specialist Tactics - especially ones that cost 2 CPs - don't earn you any XP.
Ranger Gunners: Similar to Astra Militarum, if it's your bag, you should be running six Special Weapons in your Team. Arc Rifles for most stuff. Plasma Calivers for everything else. Tailor as-needed.
Ranger Alpha: Since Rangers are the same cost - and worse - than Vanguard, the Alpha is simply more of the same.
Skitarii Vanguard: Do a bunch of stuff. 6+ to wound causes 2 Damage instead of 1. Pretty good. But...Then again...Anyone who isn't carrying a Special Weapon is a waste of points.
Vanguard Gunners: Identical to Ranger Gunners, except anyone trying to Melee them is at -1 Toughness for free.
Vanguard Alpha: Identical to a Ranger Alpha, except anyone trying to Melee him is at -1 Toughness for free. Which pairs well with most of the Canticles making your Melee attacks better. Then again, if you were trying to Melee, wouldn't you be better off with...
Sicarian Ruststalkers: 2 Wounds, 4+ Save, 6+ Invulnerable. Lots of attacks. Zealot is nice.
Ruststalker Princeps: Best Melee model you own. Why are Transonic Blades free? No-one knows. Throw on Veteran and run at people. Go, go, Gadget Blender! Doing stacks of Mortal Wounds even ignores Harlequins' Invulnerable save. But, remember your Ruststalkers are still only T3, and can be in for a very bad time against the wrong weapons.
Sicarian Infiltrators: Basically they're Ruststalkers, except they have ranged weapons that can occasionally kill Cultists.
Infiltrator Princeps: Like a Ruststalker Princeps except not as good with less attacks that don't ignore Invulnerables sometimes.
Conqueror Doctrina Imperative; Give a model +1 to hit in the Fight phase. If your model is within 6" of a Data-Tether, +2. Anywhere near opposing models isn't where you want your Data-Tether to be. Then again, Taser effects don't happen on unmodified rolls, so you'll do a lot of hits with a Taser everytime you roll a 4+...So, not bad. But certainly not that good for 2 CPs.
Protector Doctrina Imperiative; Give a model +1 to hit in the Shooting phase. If your model is within 6" of a Data-Tether, +2. Much better for cancelling out negs to hit because the Shooting phase is where all the negs are. Get a Plasma Sniper to re-roll 1s. Get a Comms, maybe and stack for +3 to hit with Overcharged Plasma. Exceptionally strong and for 2 CPs, it had better be.
Dunestrider; Roll 2d6 and pick the highest for Advancing.
Gloria Mechanicus; Re-roll your Canticle for the turn.

Gamma-Zhul-881 'Expansion' (a.k.a. The Starter Set)
Auto-Tracking Software; Overwatch on a 5+.
Hyper-Penetrative Shot; For 2 CPs, after you shoot an Arquebus (which you didn't take 'cause they're garbage), your target doesn't get any negs on the Injury roll...So...You use it before you roll to hit, before you roll to wound, before your opponent makes their Save, and then you go to Injury roll? For 2 CPs? Really? You're using a 5 Point weapon and the Tactic to make it any good is 2 CPs? ...Yeah, no.
Optimal Conditions; All your dudes get +1 to Charge for the phase. Not bad.
Scryer-Skull; Basically useless. Except when it isn't. You'll know.
Stablisation Actuators; Re-roll Fall tests. Basically useless. Except when it isn't.
Transonic Attunement; One of your <Ruststalkers> gets +1 to wound for the Fight phase. Really strong for doing Mortal Wounds and murdering things.

Know Your Enemy: They're less Guardsmen with (bad) Invulnerable saves. Including the bit where they spam Special Weapons. Maybe they'll bring one or two Blender-bots, and those you really need to worry about. Because you'll be taking Mortal Wounds left and right and you wont be able to stop it. Especially if they're smart about how they use their Canticles.

Mark of Chaos: It doesn't really do anything, except determine which Icon you take - if any.
Khorne; Within 6" of the Icon your models can re-roll Charges. It also happens to cost 5 Points and your models aren't even that good in Melee anyway - just like regular Astartes. The only real reason to run exactly one <Khorne> model is so that you can make it a Veteran and pop the Khorne Tactic on it. In which case it's a Veteran, and doesn't really need to re-roll Charges because it's not a scrub.
Tzeentch; Roll a '6' at the start of the Psychic phase. The closest enemy model to the Icon takes a Mortal Wound. So it costs a point and barely does anything? Cool.
Nurgle; Enemy models have -1 Leadership whilst within 6" of the Icon.
Slaanesh; Death to the False Emperor procs on a 5+...Which means it's only good for Marine-heavy Teams which means that it's not very good. It also sucks that it's five points.
Undivided; Your models have +1 Leadership near the Icon. Very good if you have a lot of Cultists. Which you should.
Cultists: At 4 Points each, Cultists are your bread-and-butter. Just spam models on the board, and give all of them Autoguns. For their cost, they'll put the hurt on any Kill Team that they look at. Conversely...They're Cultists. Anyone who looks at them funny, is going to kill all or even most of them. A Cultists' job is to try and get into Melee with opposing Plasma weapons to let your bigger, meaner Chaos Marines live longer.
Cultist Gunner: Surprisingly efficient and still don't cost you anything. None of them will ever make it past Level 1. A Heavy Heavy Stubber, or a Demolitions Flamer. It's not that hard to figure out.
Cultist Champion: You're not a Faction that needs a Leader. Make a Cultist your Leader which should hopefully take some heat off of your Big Guys.
Chaos Space Marines: Chaos Space Marines...Just aren't that good. For every Marine in your Roster, you could have three Cultists instead, all churning out Injury rolls. As long as you're smart (which you are, right?) and spread your Cultists out, it's not like your opponent can kill them very fast. Maybe you might take a <Khorne> model, to take advantage of the Tactic. But you really don't need to, 'cause Veteran does the same thing, better, for less Command Points and more XP. An Icon is nice to have. But you don't really need it. Chaos Marines also have the Transhuman Physiology rule which means that they'll ignore the first Flesh Wound that they take.
Chaos Space Marine Gunner: Similar to Loyalist Astartes, any model that isn't a Gunner is simply taking up space. Unfortunately, Chaos Marines don't have all that many models to choose from, which means that you'll end up with 2 Gunners. And, like other Astartes - except for Deathwatch, the good ones - your squad is actually capped on the types of weapons that they can take, regardless of the number many Gunners you may actually have. So...Have a dude with a Flamer. Have a dude with a Plasma Gun. Then put a dude with a Heavy Bolter on your Roster just in case. The rest...Is Cultists.
Aspiring Champion: It's stupid. But being Broken is based on the highest Leadership on your Team. Not the Leadership of your Leader - which is what would make sense. Run an Aspiring Champion as a Veteran, make a Cultist Champion your Leader instead. Throw on a Power Fist. Make him <Khorne> if you want to...Roll hard. Especially against <Imperium> armies with Death to the False Emperor starts happening. Of course, this is almost guaranteed to get your Champion killed every single time. But hey? What else are you gonna do except spam Cultists and win games.

Veterans of the Long War; Unlike 'real 40K', GW remembered that this shouldn't really be usable on Cultists. Anyway, 2 CPs to give one of your dudes +1 to wound in a phase.
Fury of Khorne; Pick a <Khorne> model to Fight again at the end of the Fight phase. Only reason to run exactly one Khorne model...It's also the only Tactic that's Mark-specific. Here's hoping the Chaos Expansion does...Something.
Daemon Spirit; At the end of the Movement phase, pick an enemy model within 1" of your Leader. 4+ they take a Mortal Wound.
Beseech the Gods; At the start of the first Battle Round, pick one of your models. On a 1, they take D3 Mortal Wonds (ouch!), or, they get +1 to hit and wound for the rest of the Mission. You will always roll a '1' because the dice always hate you and what are you even doing?

Know Your Enemy: Cultists are cheaper than Guardsmen! A standard Chaos Team is going to be 2-4 Marines, and then 16-18 Cultists. Whatever makes 20. Although at the start of a campaign, the Chaos Team is limited to 12 models...So, maybe they'll have more Marines. You don't need to take Cultists OoA. They're garbage. One Flesh Wound effectively removes them from the game (except a Cultist with a Flamer...Kill that guy). What you really need to do is target down the Chaos Marine with the highest Leadership (it's always either the one with the Plasma Gun, or the one currently wrecking your Team's backfield and screaming about murder), then hopefully Break your opponent before his 25+ shots per round get lucky rolling multiple 6s in a row. Whilst Guardsmen spamming Special Weapons is one of the most deadly Teams alive. A Chaos Team spamming spud guns is actually a really close second.

[9mm]

Got some bits to make some Scottish troops from Victoria miniatures yesterday.

Pros:

Gorgeous miniatures.
Fantastic service (Victoria Lamb is extraordinarily nice and helpful with communications).
Not Cadians or Catachans.

Cons (error on my part, obviously):

Well, I didn't realise how different in waist size the male legs were from the female torsos. The guys have calves of a similar size to the ladies' waists! I had bought male kilt legs for my male and female guard, thinking the size difference would be nothing serious. How wrong I was. There's no way to make those torsos fit those legs. A friend has different kilt legs coming from another company, so I'll try those out. If they don't work, I'll use male Cadian torsos for the girls.

I think you could make them work... we just need to find some Chun-li heads :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

Game 1 of Kill Team Time

Lictor; Flesh Hooks, Grasping Talons, Rending Claws, Veteran - 25 Points
Tyranid Warrior; Deathspitter, Flesh Hooks, Boneswords, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Leader - 24 Points
Tyranid Warrior; Deathspitter, Flesh Hooks, Boneswords, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Comms] - 24 Points
Tyranid Warrior Gunner; Flesh Hooks, Venom Cannon, Boneswords, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Heavy - 26 Points

99 Points

Genestealer; Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Extended Carapace, Leader - 11 Points
Genestealer; Acid Maw, Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Extended Carapace, Combat - 11 Points
Genestealer; Flesh Hooks, Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Extended Carapace, Scout - 11 Points
Genestealer; Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Extended Carapace - 11 Points
Genestealer; Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Extended Carapace - 11 Points
Genestealer; Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Extended Carapace - 11 Points
Genestealer; Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Extended Carapace - 11 Points
Genestealer; Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Extended Carapace - 11 Points

Roster (Week 1) = 12 Models | 187 Points

Basically, I actually have a use for my Tyranid Deathstorm models, plus a Lictor I bought.

Scout; Rifle & Cloak - 12
Scout Gunner; Rifle & Cloak - 13
Tactical Marine Gunner; Heavy Bolter, Sniper - 16
Intercessor; Bolt Rifle - 15
Intercessor; Bolt Rifle - 15
Intercessor; Bolt Rifle - 15
???

??? Points

Turns out running a Veteran Lictor immediately makes people panic, as there's nothing that most models can do when a Lictor starts the game 2" away. You Charge me, or I Charge you. Nothing matters. Straight off the bat he blows both of his CPs to use Hellfire Shells off his Sniper. Probably what I would've done, too. Doesn't matter. Rolls a '2'. My entire Team carries Assault weapons. So Advancing doesn't particularly bother me, since hitting on 5s is fine, and 6s always hit anyway, so who cares if you've got three shots, right? Giving Marines Flesh Wounds isn't my idea of fun. But then my Lictor goes straight to doing 2 Damage, and taking Primaris Marines out with 2 Damage, double Injury, thanks for playing. Do you have Reiver Sergeant, or a Tactical Sergeant with Power Fist? Uh oh...

Turn 2 means my Boneswords with Toxin Sacs start getting in on the action, every '6' I roll turns into AP-2, 2 Damage, see you later. Getting my Warriors down to 1 Wound doesn't mean anything, 'cause I'm still not taking Flesh Wounds until I'm at 0. Advancing with an Assault Weapon (Heavy Specialist), then taking the +1 to hit off of Comms, then rolling D3 shots, then for D3 Damage apiece. I know you ignore the first Flesh Wound...I'm not doing Flesh Wounds. My Lictor Charges both Scouts with the Rifles and kills both of them in the phase.

Turn 3 my opponent has one Scout left, and concedes. I didn't even get to use all my Specialist Tactics. :smallfrown:

Amazingly, every single one of my opponent's models rolls a 3+ on the Casualty Roll.

EDIT: Also, I was running that my Lictor had an 8" Move and WS3+. :smallsigh:

[Wraith]

Necromunda is basically 40k, right? It's not like I should start a whole new thread for one question.... :smalltongue:

I've been playing my Van Saar gang lately, and I'm enjoying it a lot - I've starting to suspect that it's because I have somehow misinterpreted one of their special rules for my own advantage, and I would like the opinion of the Playground to see if they agree.

The rule is Rad-Phage - not unique to Van Saar, but they own 95% of the starting equipment that uses it. The rule reads as follows:

"In addition to any other damage inflicted, any model hit by this weapon suffers an automatic fleshwound." (Gang War 3, page 90)

It seems to read that, if you are hit by Rad-Phage then you take a fleshwound, regardless of what your To Wound roll is. The presence of that "in addition to", however, could be interpreted as you requiring to make a successful To Wound Roll; 'in addition to other damage', but *not* if you do no damage.

I'm reasonably sure it's the former, even though it seems to allow some horrible, horrible shenanigans with Rag-Guns and Leader/Champion group activations, but I'm open to the idea that it may be the latter. Would anyone care to offer an opinion?

[Gauntlet]

Necromunda is basically 40k, right? It's not like I should start a whole new thread for one question.... :smalltongue:

I've been playing my Van Saar gang lately, and I'm enjoying it a lot - I've starting to suspect that it's because I have somehow misinterpreted one of their special rules for my own advantage, and I would like the opinion of the Playground to see if they agree.

The rule is Rad-Phage - not unique to Van Saar, but they own 95% of the starting equipment that uses it. The rule reads as follows:

"In addition to any other damage inflicted, any model hit by this weapon suffers an automatic fleshwound." (Gang War 3, page 90)

It seems to read that, if you are hit by Rad-Phage then you take a fleshwound, regardless of what your To Wound roll is. The presence of that "in addition to", however, could be interpreted as you requiring to make a successful To Wound Roll; 'in addition to other damage', but *not* if you do no damage.

I'm reasonably sure it's the former, even though it seems to allow some horrible, horrible shenanigans with Rag-Guns and Leader/Champion group activations, but I'm open to the idea that it may be the latter. Would anyone care to offer an opinion?

The way I've played it is that it always does a flesh wound regardless of whether you cause a wound with the actual profile. Otherwise all the strength 2 rad weaponry would be pretty useless, since you'd need to wound on 5+ and deal with armor saves before you did anything at all - and if you can get your opponent to fail an armor save, you could have used a plasma weapon for less/similar credits and just killed them, rather than doing a flesh wound.

I'm of the opinion that even with auto-flesh wounds, Rad Grenades are the only particularly relevant rad-phage weapons anyway. Being strength 3 with AP blasts for 25 credits means they're just good even if you disregard the Rad rules.

[Avaris]

Necromunda is basically 40k, right? It's not like I should start a whole new thread for one question.... :smalltongue:

I've been playing my Van Saar gang lately, and I'm enjoying it a lot - I've starting to suspect that it's because I have somehow misinterpreted one of their special rules for my own advantage, and I would like the opinion of the Playground to see if they agree.

The rule is Rad-Phage - not unique to Van Saar, but they own 95% of the starting equipment that uses it. The rule reads as follows:

"In addition to any other damage inflicted, any model hit by this weapon suffers an automatic fleshwound." (Gang War 3, page 90)

It seems to read that, if you are hit by Rad-Phage then you take a fleshwound, regardless of what your To Wound roll is. The presence of that "in addition to", however, could be interpreted as you requiring to make a successful To Wound Roll; 'in addition to other damage', but *not* if you do no damage.

I'm reasonably sure it's the former, even though it seems to allow some horrible, horrible shenanigans with Rag-Guns and Leader/Champion group activations, but I'm open to the idea that it may be the latter. Would anyone care to offer an opinion?

I feel fairly confident your interpretation is correct: 'in addition to any other damage' implies that the other damage can be nil, and if it required damage to be done it would say 'any model wounded by this weapon'

[Cheesegear]

It seems to read that, if you are hit by Rad-Phage then you take a fleshwound, regardless of what your To Wound roll is.

Correct. Rad weapons fairly reliably just go straight to Flesh Wounds. They'll rarely actually take a model off of the board. But the point of Rad weapons - other than being rad, of course - is to just **** up your opponent's best models. Do a hit, they take a Flesh Wound. No other roll required. Then on top of that, you might actually do a Wound.

[Wraith]

Rad weapons fairly reliably just go straight to Flesh Wounds. They'll rarely actually take a model off of the board.

Assuming that Rad-Phage worked out the way I expected it to, I worked out the dream turn and everyone else at the table looked at me like like I had just said something unrepeatable about their grandmothers.

+ Buy a Leader and 2 Champions.
+ Give them all Rad-Guns.
+ Start a campaign and give them all Fast Shot.
+ Play the tactics card that guarantees Initiative for the turn.
+ Use the Leader to activate both Champions.
+ Bathe the entire board in Rad-Phage, causing up to 6 fleshwounds on at least one target.
+ Remind everyone that the rest of my gang have Rad-Grenades that are ~10-20 creds cheaper than their own equivalents.
+ Beaten to death with a rulebook by my opponent.
+ Haven't even rolled a dice yet. :smallbiggrin:

3 Rad per turn (usually a guaranteed Out of Action) is to be expected at least once. 5 Rad per turn is entirely reasonable. 8 is not out of the question. 10 - not even counting additional hits from templates and blast markers, that's just one shot = one target - is extreme, but doable.

[Gauntlet]

Assuming that Rad-Phage worked out the way I expected it to, I worked out the dream turn and everyone else at the table looked at me like like I had just said something unrepeatable about their grandmothers.

+ Buy a Leader and 2 Champions.
+ Give them all Rad-Guns.
+ Start a campaign and give them all Fast Shot.
+ Play the tactics card that guarantees Initiative for the turn.
+ Use the Leader to activate both Champions.
+ Bathe the entire board in Rad-Phage, causing up to 6 fleshwounds on at least one target.
+ Remind everyone that the rest of my gang have Rad-Grenades that are ~10-20 creds cheaper than their own equivalents.
+ Beaten to death with a rulebook by my opponent.
+ Haven't even rolled a dice yet. :smallbiggrin:

3 Rad per turn (usually a guaranteed Out of Action) is to be expected at least once. 5 Rad per turn is entirely reasonable. 8 is not out of the question. 10 - not even counting additional hits from templates and blast markers, that's just one shot = one target - is extreme, but doable.

Because Rad weapons are guaranteed to reduce toughness, they go very well with other light weaponry like lasguns, suppression lasers with scattershot, and so on. If someone's toughness 2 they go down very quickly.

The main issue with Rad guns is that they are Template weapons so cap at 8" of range, so it's somewhat difficult to get into range with them. I would recommend Hip Shooting above Fast Shot for this reason. I've also found that it's sort of a waste to put an auto hitting gun on a Champion, since you're wasting their excellent BS, and would rather have it on a Ganger. The Van Saar Brute has BS4+ and can take a Rad Gun, which is also quite nice to cover up that weakness if you have 260+ spare credits.

The main strength of template weapons is that they're guaranteed to pin the target with no rolls necessary, so they have a lot of utility especially against melee opponents. Rad guns lean harder into this 'utility' role than even other template weapons, since they have more of the 'automatic effect without rolling' side of things and less of the 'likely to actually kill someone' qualities. Three rad gun shots means a target definitely dies, yeah - but one rad gun shot followed up with two hotshot lasguns is also very likely to score a kill and costs a whole lot less in credits.

[Wraith]

I've also found that it's sort of a waste to put an auto hitting gun on a Champion, since you're wasting their excellent BS, and would rather have it on a Ganger.

It works "best" (with regards to this one tactic at least, if not a more generalised gameplay) on Champions because only 1 Ganger can take a Special Weapon at Gang creation, whereas Champions aren't limited. Similarly, Champions start the campaign with 1 Primary skill so you can get Fast Shot/Hipshooter immediately, unlike with Gangers who have to level up.

I make no claim that this is an optimised tactic, or a cost-efficient one, only that it can be done if you're an awful person. Good call on the Brute though, I haven't looked very hard at those guys yet but a giant, mechanical, irradiated spider sounds like fun. :smallbiggrin:

[Renegade Paladin]

I'm terrified my tournament tomorrow is going to be a complete bust. :smallfrown: Initial reservation count was low, and when the people who did reserve noticed that, they started dropping out too rather than drive here to play with half a dozen people. At the rate things are going, I'm going to wind up running a three player round robin if I'm lucky.

[LansXero]

I'm terrified my tournament tomorrow is going to be a complete bust. :smallfrown: Initial reservation count was low, and when the people who did reserve noticed that, they started dropping out too rather than drive here to play with half a dozen people. At the rate things are going, I'm going to wind up running a three player round robin if I'm lucky.

As a TO myself, I really hope it works out. Its sad when events are organized and nobody comes.

Unrelated question: Could anyone share volumen measurements for a T.Vault? Its a VERY expensive model, but a guy here might buy one, he justs wants to try it out first (its not a light expense to make). So we agree to let him build a proxy and see for himself.

Also, just got done with a 2k game. I ran this:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [13 PL, 211pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regimental Doctrine: Catachan

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila, Laspistol, Warlord

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: Force Stave

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 45pts]
. 7x Guardsman
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 45pts]
. 7x Guardsman
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 45pts]
. 7x Guardsman
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Sergeant: Laspistol

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Ministorum) [36 PL, 563pts] ++

+ HQ +

Canoness [4 PL, 60pts]: Chainsword, Combi-plasma

Celestine [14 PL, 250pts]: Celestine, 2x Geminae Superia

+ Troops +

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts]
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts]
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts]
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter

+ Heavy Support +

Retributor Squad [6 PL, 100pts]
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [78 PL, 1226pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regimental Doctrine: Valhallan

+ Lord of War +

Shadowsword [26 PL, 406pts]: Storm Bolter, Twin heavy bolter

Shadowsword [26 PL, 410pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Twin heavy bolter

Shadowsword [26 PL, 410pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Twin heavy bolter

++ Total: [127 PL, 2000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

My oponent ran his same old list with 3 knights (1 Valiant, 1 Gallant, 1 Crusader), IG batallion (1 lascanon, 2 mortars) and a Custodes captain in a bike (with 3 custodian guard on foot).

We played Maelstrom and got Recon as a mission. His Valiant was deployed at the start of the turn and he went first. I only got to deploy battle sisters, retributors and a canoness. But then my recon rolls were great (no company commander though) and his stuff was stuck outside the game for a turn. Not that it would've made much of a difference, I rolled awfully against his Valiant and still tabled him by turn 4. Was a fun game for both, even with the heavy tailoring from my side, mostly because we are friends.

[Cheesegear]

Kill Team Game 2

vs...

Deathwatch Veteran; Heavy Thunder Hammer, Zealot
Deathwatch Veteran; Heavy Thunder Hammer
Deathwatch Veteran Gunner; Deathwatch Frag Cannon, Demolitions
Deathwatch Veteran Gunner; Deathwatch Frag Cannon, Sniper
Watch Sergeant; Boltgun, Power Sword, Leader

My Warriors got very greedy, and as such, was tabled on Turn 2.

It being Week 2 - i.e; not being limited to 12 models anymore - I noticed my opponent's Roster simply contained all ~20 Deathwatch Veterans that he owned. So as soon as I saw his Roster, I knew I was simply done, because Deathwatch can 'choose to win', especially if they have any brains at all, and their opponent doesn't have an Invulnerable save.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, it was a complete bust. One guy showed up, so I gave him a game. He proceeded to use the ruins on the table to deep strike Wolf Guard with jump packs 9" base to base with my models, and then make a 3" charge because models with Fly ignore vertical distance. :smallsigh:

[JNAProductions]

How would one use Daemons in Murder Group Kill Team?

And Renegade Paladin, sorry to hear about the low turnout. :(

[Cheesegear]

How would one use Daemons in Murder Group Kill Team?

Be a Daemon player who likes Nurgle.
Buy Gellarpox Infected.
Then get angry how you're locked into a specific group of models with rules that can never, ever change.
...Then get rolled by Grey Knights who are already fairly strong to begin with (at least Tier 2), but against Daemons they can't lose.

On the other hand, Kill Team; Commanders is coming out. Which will basically be the ~40 models that Shadow War used as 'Promethium buys', except GW will make us pay real 'DLC' money to use them, instead of including them in the rulebook like they did for Shadow War because New GW is exactly the same as Old GW.

As I mentioned earlier, I was actually tabled yesterday. I rolled my Casualties, and two of my four models literally Dead. Except doesn't matter, who cares? Recycle the models.
I was never invested in my models to begin with. I replace Lictor with Lictor II, and my Team/Roster remains identical.
My opponent, who thought he'd actually achieved something by removing a significant player out of the campaign...Had actually done nothing at all, and his sense of achievement evaporated on the spot.
Kill Team Campaigns; No consequences. No achievements.
I. ****ing. Called it.
Twice-watered down Necromunda, indeed.

Now GW is going to ask me to pay $$$ for something Shadow War gave out for free.

[LansXero]

Then get angry how you're locked into a specific group of models with rules that can never, ever change.

So, hey, there is a new shadespire starter set coming out next week :V

[Blackhawk748]

I'm not surprised by that. I wasn't terribly impressed by what I had seen and since the XP seems to do nothing. Rather glad i just waited for Hearlds of Ruin to update to 8th ed.

[Forum Explorer]

Be a Daemon player who likes Nurgle.
Buy Gellarpox Infected.
Then get angry how you're locked into a specific group of models with rules that can never, ever change.
...Then get rolled by Grey Knights who are already fairly strong to begin with (at least Tier 2), but against Daemons they can't lose.

On the other hand, Kill Team; Commanders is coming out. Which will basically be the ~40 models that Shadow War used as 'Promethium buys', except GW will make us pay real 'DLC' money to use them, instead of including them in the rulebook like they did for Shadow War because New GW is exactly the same as Old GW.

As I mentioned earlier, I was actually tabled yesterday. I rolled my Casualties, and two of my four models literally Dead. Except doesn't matter, who cares? Recycle the models.
I was never invested in my models to begin with. I replace Lictor with Lictor II, and my Team/Roster remains identical.
My opponent, who thought he'd actually achieved something by removing a significant player out of the campaign...Had actually done nothing at all, and his sense of achievement evaporated on the spot.
Kill Team Campaigns; No consequences. No achievements.
I. ****ing. Called it.
Twice-watered down Necromunda, indeed.

Now GW is going to ask me to pay $$$ for something Shadow War gave out for free.

Yeah, it is pretty sad. I had a 3 player game today, which was a basic guaranteed loss as it was Take Prisoners and I've got almost no melee options and my opponents were Harliquins and Tyranids. Long story short, I lost and 2 Rangers and a Dire Avenger died. But whatever, they just get recycled.

We are keeping track of kills though, so it matters for pride.


Well, it was a complete bust. One guy showed up, so I gave him a game. He proceeded to use the ruins on the table to deep strike Wolf Guard with jump packs 9" base to base with my models, and then make a 3" charge because models with Fly ignore vertical distance. :smallsigh:

That sucks man. I am curious what he was running since he had Space Wolves.

[Renegade Paladin]

That sucks man. I am curious what he was running since he had Space Wolves.

It was a primary Imperial Guard list, but it was just under half Wolves. Here you go.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [43 PL, 835pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regimental Doctrine: Cadian

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 38pts]: Display Astra Militarum Orders, Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila, Laspistol, Power fist, Warlord

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: Force Stave, Nightshroud, Terrifying Visions

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 65pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster: Vox-caster
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 65pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster: Vox-caster
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 45pts]
. 8x Guardsman
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster: Vox-caster
. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [30 PL, 576pts]
. Leman Russ Executioner: Lascannon, Plasma Cannons, Turret-mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon
. Leman Russ Executioner: Lascannon, Plasma Cannons, Turret-mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon
. Leman Russ Executioner: Lascannon, Plasma Cannons, Turret-mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon

++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Imperium - Space Wolves) [50 PL, 665pts] ++

+ HQ +

Wolf Guard Battle Leader [5 PL, 114pts]: Jump Packs, Storm shield, Thunder hammer

+ Elites +

Great Company Champion [3 PL, 50pts]: Master-crafted power sword

Wolf Guard [18 PL, 213pts]: Jump Packs
. Wolf Guard: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard: Frost sword, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Frost sword, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Frost sword, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Wulfen [24 PL, 288pts]
. 5x Thunder hammer & Stormshield: 5x Storm Shield, 5x Thunder Hammer
. 5x Wulfen
. Wulfen Pack Leader: Frost claws

++ Total: [93 PL, 1500pts] ++
The Russes did most of the heavy lifting; the Wolves just wiped out a couple of squads of infantry. And I just realized looking at the list again that I was right to get suspicious when he demanded to know if I thought he was cheating when I asked him questions about what he was doing. He was using auger arrays on those Executioners that are clearly not on the list. :smallannoyed: I'll have to keep an eye on him now.

[Cheesegear]

I'm not surprised by that. I wasn't terribly impressed by what I had seen and since the XP seems to do nothing.

XP and Levels are really useful in a tournament setting, where you can actually design your Team around what you pick before the tournament has even started. But, yeah...You get to pick who has Levels, and you get to factor in the +4 or +8 Points whilst building your list, and you don't actually waste time doing lower levels, etc.

In a campaign, where you are forced to make up a Team of Level 1s, you can't factor in Level Ups in your starting Team if you actually care about winning your opening games - which you do, 'cause Kill Team is a game about losing, not winning, so every loss counts. But the instant you Level Up one of your dudes you go over the 100 Point cap and what are you gonna do? Then, of course, it's a campaign. So you actually can't control who Level Ups - I mean, you can, kind of - but you can't control who dies and all your XP just goes.

Harlequin player had two of his models Level Up. He got caught cheating when it was pointed out that Level Ups aren't free. So he either had to lose a model, or lose his Fusion Pistols, or he had to ignore his Level Ups. Then he moo'd for a little bit about how Kill Team wasn't fair. Then he got dogpiled on by the entire store because he was a Harlequin player who was complaining that his models weren't good enough. What a knob.

On another note, I saw Burna Boyz in action. They're an auto-win on Turn 1 if their opponent doesn't Ready their entire Team.


Yeah, it is pretty sad. I had a 3 player game today, which was a basic guaranteed loss...

I've found the secret to multiplayer games is numbers on the board.

And, of course, being one of the two players who agree to take out the third, first. :smallannoyed:
(i.e; Multi-player games are automatically unfair because that's how humans work)

[9mm]

our store started org play late, but got the first game in vs GSC. Ended up killing multiple Genestealers in overwatch, and was able to abuse the fact "the feint" forces the attacker to hoard CP to force damage through. Primaris Marines are fun.

[Blackhawk748]

XP and Levels are really useful in a tournament setting, where you can actually design your Team around what you pick before the tournament has even started. But, yeah...You get to pick who has Levels, and you get to factor in the +4 or +8 Points whilst building your list, and you don't actually waste time doing lower levels, etc.

In a campaign, where you are forced to make up a Team of Level 1s, you can't factor in Level Ups in your starting Team if you actually care about winning your opening games - which you do, 'cause Kill Team is a game about losing, not winning, so every loss counts. But the instant you Level Up one of your dudes you go over the 100 Point cap and what are you gonna do? Then, of course, it's a campaign. So you actually can't control who Level Ups - I mean, you can, kind of - but you can't control who dies and all your XP just goes.

Harlequin player had two of his models Level Up. He got caught cheating when it was pointed out that Level Ups aren't free. So he either had to lose a model, or lose his Fusion Pistols, or he had to ignore his Level Ups. Then he moo'd for a little bit about how Kill Team wasn't fair. Then he got dogpiled on by the entire store because he was a Harlequin player who was complaining that his models weren't good enough. What a knob.

On another note, I saw Burna Boyz in action. They're an auto-win on Turn 1 if their opponent doesn't Ready their entire Team.

Ya, that bit makes no sense to me. Necromunda, Mordheim and HoR Kill Team stop having "equal points" across teams pretty quick, its part of the game and its something people paid attention to when playing. By forcing the points the way they do, they make Level Ups not only worthless but actually impossible to use, as you point out.

[Forum Explorer]

XP and Levels are really useful in a tournament setting, where you can actually design your Team around what you pick before the tournament has even started. But, yeah...You get to pick who has Levels, and you get to factor in the +4 or +8 Points whilst building your list, and you don't actually waste time doing lower levels, etc.

In a campaign, where you are forced to make up a Team of Level 1s, you can't factor in Level Ups in your starting Team if you actually care about winning your opening games - which you do, 'cause Kill Team is a game about losing, not winning, so every loss counts. But the instant you Level Up one of your dudes you go over the 100 Point cap and what are you gonna do? Then, of course, it's a campaign. So you actually can't control who Level Ups - I mean, you can, kind of - but you can't control who dies and all your XP just goes.

Harlequin player had two of his models Level Up. He got caught cheating when it was pointed out that Level Ups aren't free. So he either had to lose a model, or lose his Fusion Pistols, or he had to ignore his Level Ups. Then he moo'd for a little bit about how Kill Team wasn't fair. Then he got dogpiled on by the entire store because he was a Harlequin player who was complaining that his models weren't good enough. What a knob.

On another note, I saw Burna Boyz in action. They're an auto-win on Turn 1 if their opponent doesn't Ready their entire Team.



I've found the secret to multiplayer games is numbers on the board.

And, of course, being one of the two players who agree to take out the third, first. :smallannoyed:
(i.e; Multi-player games are automatically unfair because that's how humans work)

Yeah, I might be a bit more attached to my models if I wasn't 'scrapping' most of them every game to keep everyone at level 1. The only ones I'm interested in leveling up is my Sniper and Veteran, and I'm still not sure if that's actually worth dropping a Dire Avenger for.


In this case they both sent everything into me so I was doubly doomed right from the get go.

[Renegade Paladin]

When I called the guy on using stuff that wasn't on his list, his defense was that he didn't do that; instead he changed the list when he saw he wasn't going to have to kill Knights or Primarchs. So he tailored and didn't tell me. Which isn't better. :smallannoyed:

[PhoenixPhyre]

So a friend of mine is looking to get into WH40K at the super-casual/just learning stage. Are there decent starter armies? Things that expose you to the whole game while not being annoying to play or super horrible (or super expensive)? Thoughts? What's a good way to start?

[LansXero]

So a friend of mine is looking to get into WH40K at the super-casual/just learning stage. Are there decent starter armies? Things that expose you to the whole game while not being annoying to play or super horrible (or super expensive)? Thoughts? What's a good way to start?

IMHO Know No Fear is the best starter currently around.

[Voidhawk]

So a friend of mine is looking to get into WH40K at the super-casual/just learning stage. Are there decent starter armies? Things that expose you to the whole game while not being annoying to play or super horrible (or super expensive)? Thoughts? What's a good way to start?

What part of it interests him the most? What's gotten him interested enough to start? As a hobby, is has a high cost in both currency and personal time/energy invested, so the most important thing is choosing a race/playstyle that matches his temperament. If you tell us what he wants to do, we can then give advice so that he doesn't buy models that make him auto-lose his first few games.

[Cheesegear]

What's a good way to start?

It...Depends.
If your friend is looking to get into 40K by themselves, just buying two or three of some (of the better) Start Collecting! boxes will have a solid core of HQ and Troops units in fairly cheap order. The only problem with buying the same box three times, is it leads to a lack of variety in your model choice early on. And if someone doesn't have 'fun' early with a variety of different units, they might want to quit. Though it depends on the personality.

If your friend is looking to get into 40K with you, or someone else. Then there are a whole range of options. However the limiting factor in all of the two-Faction sets require that both parties are actually invested in the products being sold;

Dark Imperium / Know No Fear: Dark Imperium is an excellent start, most notably because it contains a Rulebook that you don't have to buy for extra money. The Space Marine side is...Okay, and the two models that aren't very good, are Space Marine Characters, which means that they're easily replaceable monetarily speaking. The Death Guard side is...Less good. One of the biggest recommendations for the Death Guard side is working out how to convert the Lord of Contagion model into a reasonable Typhus facsimile (it's not even hard). If you can't shell out for Dark Imperium, then Know No Fear is really, really good. However my strong recommendation is that if you do need to buy the Rulebook anyway, then you're better off buying the full Dark Imperium. However, there is a recent revelation concerning Know No Fear...

Forgebane: Forgebane is still out (In AU, at least) and it's a fantastic start to an AdMech army, and the dual Armigers will easily slot into every Imperium army you ever make from now on, forever. The box is...Less good...For Necron players. If anyone wants to 'go halves' in Forgebane, in the Necron half, they are so much better off spending almost the exact same money for the Necron Start Collecting! box which was recently revamped to be one of the best ones that GW has out.

Tooth and Claw: Total garbage for Space Wolf players. Exactly what you need to start Genestealer Cults. However there is a Codex on the way (probably November, if not sooner). But for real, you've got to get rid of the Space Wolves half if you even remotely want to consider buying Tooth and Claw and get your money's worth.

Wake the Dead: Just announced this week, Wake the Dead is almost like Know No Fear except better or worse, depending on who you ask. Wake the Dead is guaranteed to be more expensive than Know No Fear, even if you go halves. However, Wake the Dead has a Sword!Lieutenant, instead of a garbage Gravis Captain, and it contains the 'proper' boxes for Intercessors and Inceptors - in case you actually want to customise them. However, where Wake the Dead trips itself, is that it gives the Space Marine player Reivers, instead of Hellblasters. Which basically locks you into playing Blood Angels - even if the marketing materials say otherwise - because Reivers are total trash unless they're Blood Angels. The Craftworlds' side of Wake the Dead is totally weak, especially if it's branding itself as Saim-Hann. Still...If one person wants to play Space Marines (of indeterminate colour) and their friend wants to play Craftworlds...Well...It's a start that gets them both on board. What else is there to say?

Ultimately, Dark Imperium is intended as the Starter. Know No Fear is a close second, however KNF lacks a Rulebook.
If you want to play something that isn't Space Marines or Death Guard, you're almost guaranteed to do well with 2-3 Start Collecting! boxes...

I strongly recommend the following;
Drukhari
Orks Probably hold off. If Orks get a new SC! box like Drukhari and Necrons did, the new one is guaranteed to be better.
Deathwatch
Daemons of Khorne
Militarum Tempestus ++
Skitarii - However Forgebane is better if you can palm off the Necrons.
Necrons ++ - Don't let anyone palm Forgebane off on you. The SC! box is way better for the same price if you're asked to 'split' Forgebane with your AdMech friend (who is getting a way better deal)
Daemons of Tzeentch +
Astra Militarum
Daemons of Nurgle

All the other SC! boxes are basically worthless, and/or inferior to Know No Fear.

[CrazyPenguin]

I strongly recommend the following;
Drukhari
Orks Probably hold off. If Orks get a new SC! box like Drukhari and Necrons did, the new one is guaranteed to be better.
Deathwatch
Daemons of Khorne
Militarum Tempestus ++
Skitarii - However Forgebane is better if you can palm off the Necrons.
Necrons ++ - Don't let anyone palm Forgebane off on you. The SC! box is way better for the same price if you're asked to 'split' Forgebane with your AdMech friend (who is getting a way better deal)
Daemons of Tzeentch +
Astra Militarum
Daemons of Nurgle

All the other SC! boxes are basically worthless, and/or inferior to Know No Fear.

The T'au box is a decent bang for your buck, at the very least.

[Cheesegear]

The T'au box is a decent bang for your buck...

Short answer; No it isn't.

Long answer; [Insert discussion on why T'au are trash-tier (a new player is certainly in for a bad time even in a casual meta). Then a brief outline of how the SC! box doesn't contain Riptides or Hammerheads and is almost a total waste of money.]

[Tome]

The T'au box is a decent bang for your buck, at the very least.

In terms of how much it'd cost to buy seperately? Sure.

In terms of how much you'll actually use? Nope. The fire warriors are fine but the rest of the box is pretty much unusable, meaning you're essentially paying extra for a box of fire warriors. The exception is if you use the crisis suits as commanders, in which case a single box might be useful.

In terms of whether I'd recommend picking up Tau to a new player? Not in this edition (barring some really big changes in the next errata, and I mean both big ol' point reductions AND improvements to unit/weapon statlines).

[9mm]

*looks at his painting table and realizes he's nearly just 1 push fit away from fielding an honest to goodness SM patrol*

Kill TEEEAMMMM!

*shakes fist*

obviously working as GW intended.:smallbiggrin:

[Turalisj]

The T'au box is a decent bang for your buck, at the very least.

What Cheese said. No Hammerheads, Riptides, or a Tiger Shark.

Because the only way Tau can really win is a pair of $250USD models. :smallsigh:

[Cheesegear]

So, in Kill Team, we have a situation where Terrain actually does something; -1 to hit, -1 to Injury. As predicted, and just like 5th Ed., when terrain is actually worth having, shooty models effectively become meaningless unless they are the best shooty models, and all's anyone ever tries to do is Melee each other. Isn't that what I said would happen if you made Terrain actually matter? What a fun game. :smallsigh:

[LansXero]

Wake the Dead: Just announced this week, Wake the Dead is almost like Know No Fear except better or worse, depending on who you ask. Wake the Dead is guaranteed to be more expensive than Know No Fear, even if you go halves. However, Wake the Dead has a Sword!Lieutenant, instead of a garbage Gravis Captain, and it contains the 'proper' boxes for Intercessors and Inceptors - in case you actually want to customise them. However, where Wake the Dead trips itself, is that it gives the Space Marine player Reivers, instead of Hellblasters. Which basically locks you into playing Blood Angels - even if the marketing materials say otherwise - because Reivers are total trash unless they're Blood Angels. The Craftworlds' side of Wake the Dead is totally weak, especially if it's branding itself as Saim-Hann. Still...If one person wants to play Space Marines (of indeterminate colour) and their friend wants to play Craftworlds...Well...It's a start that gets them both on board. What else is there to say?

At Tooth and Claw price, its a really weak set.

[Mystic Muse]

My Flying Hive Tyrant with Chameleonic Mutation is charging a Tesseract vault. It makes several successful overwatch shots.

Assuming no other modifiers, do the 6s confer 3 hits instead of 1, or do hit penalties apply, thus making them just regular hits?

[Cheesegear]

Assuming no other modifiers, do the 6s confer 3 hits instead of 1

Overwatch can't be modified, except in very specific circumstances (e.g; Stratagems that are explicit that they do). So, yes. 6s are 6s. It's why Tesla is good.

[JNAProductions]

Overwatch can't be modified, except in very specific circumstances (e.g; Stratagems that are explicit that they do). So, yes. 6s are 6s. It's why Tesla is good.

Tis wrong, Cheese.

You always HIT on a 6, but modifiers STILL APPLY. So if you have a -1 on Overwatch, 6s hit, but if you're overcharging Plasma, you kill yourself on a 1 AND a 2.

Same with Tesla. You hit on a 6, but no bonuses.

[Cheesegear]

You always HIT on a 6, but modifiers STILL APPLY. So if you have a -1 on Overwatch, 6s hit, but if you're overcharging Plasma, you kill yourself on a 1 AND a 2.

...Huh? ...So it is. I don't think I've ever seen anyone play it that way. Will look into further.

[Mystic Muse]

Tis wrong, Cheese.

You always HIT on a 6, but modifiers STILL APPLY. So if you have a -1 on Overwatch, 6s hit, but if you're overcharging Plasma, you kill yourself on a 1 AND a 2.

Same with Tesla. You hit on a 6, but no bonuses.

This is what I had thought based on the wording. Thank you for confirming.

I'm playing someone next month in Escalation League who has a Tesseract Vault, so I'm expecting this to come up and wanted to know how to handle it if it does.

[Cheesegear]

Guide to Kill Team
Part 3 - Choosing a Kill Team (Xenos)

Part 1; (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23369206&postcount=47) What makes a Kill Team work?
Part 2; (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23373026&postcount=59) Check out the top, for why Injury matters, and what makes a good Specialist.

<Aeldari>

Ancient Doom: Re-roll in the Fight phase against <Slaanesh> models on a turn in which you Charge or are Charged. Don't even read this sentence. Heretic Astartes will destroy you in Melee, and you can bet that when Slaaneshi Daemons rock up in Kill Team, they'll ruin you, too. Additionally, you have +1 to Nerve tests within 3" of any <Slaanesh> models...That is, if Slaanesh models start to Melee you, you're in trouble, and the first part of Ancient Doom only tricks you into thinking you have a chance.

Battle Focus: You don't count as Advancing when you do. This is pretty good since everything you own that's actually any good in your Roster is an Assault weapon. Solid.

Guardian Defenders: 7 Points a dude is pretty good. Unfortunately, they're 7 Points because they're trash. And other Factions only pay 4 Points for their trash. No. The reason you take Guardian Defenders is because of their guns. Assault 2 with the possibility of AP-3. Unfortunately, the guns only have a 12" range. But that's good, because you can Advance without penalties and get into that short range. Nice. In response? Your opponent Readies their entire Team and kills you before you get to shoot. So, yeah. You want to go second, that way you know if your opponent has Readied or not before you front up and get all your models killed. Still, without Sniper, your Heavy weapons are also basically useless...
Heavy Weapon Platform: Pick up the Scatter Laser. If you're going to be taking -2 to hit (which you will be) you may as well want the most shots you can, in order to roll some 6s and actually get some use out of the ~10 Point model you picked up.
Storm Guardians: Hot garbage.
Storm Guardian Gunner: The Battle Focus on the Fusion Gun is neat. Unfortunately, without Demolitions or the ability to spam, the Flamers barely work like they do in other Factions (specifically, Orks). At the end of the day, Guardians are still Guardians, and the only thing that matters is the guns they hold. But the guns they hold...Aren't even that good.
Rangers: They're effectively going to give your opponent -3 to hit, which is really strong, and, on the return, you don't even take negs to hit based on Long Range. Unfortunately the main problem is that S4, AP- isn't anything. And you still have to remember that in Kill Team, an unsaved Wound doesn't necessarily even remove models from the board, and if your target is Obscured, you have even less chance of removing a model.

Dire Avengers: Better Armour, and better range on the guns. Which means that you don't actually have to leave your Deployment Zone to be in Short Range, which means you're less likely to take another neg to hit. Which actually means that your guns are more effective. The difference between Guardian Defenders and Dire Avengers is only 3 Points. Which only means that ultimately for every three 'Avengers, you could take x4 Guardians instead. As aforementioned; Better Armour, Better Guns. Not a huge loss. Losing one model wont break you. Avengers are also slightly better at Melee, 'cause they Overwatch on a 5+ (but you don't have Pistols...). But you still need that Guardian Defender if you want to take that Heavy Weapon Platform. :smallsigh:
Dire Avenger Exarch: Pick up the Twin Catapults and shoot as much as you want. Dire Avengers are fine in Melee, but will get rolled by anything that's actually worth a damn. The Shimmershield is bad, because it has a 2" range, which actually means that your opponent gets to shoot your other models, as well. As opposed to not having your stuff 2" together, which means that your dudes can't even get shot at, so why do they need an Invulnerable? Point is, Dire Avenger Exarchs are the best thing that the Asuryani have...And they're still not even that good. Sorry.
Matchless Agility; Auto-roll 6" for your Advance. Very good if your opponent goes first and hasn't Readied his models.
Feigned Retreat; Fall Back and Shoot. For 1 CP it will get you out of Melee. But the real amazing part is that your model actually survived Melee against a dedicated opponent.
Phantasm; Redeploy a single model. For 2 CPs this isn't even close to worth it. Since your first turn will then be spent barely competing.
Fire and Fade; Make a normal Move, after Shooting. Nice. Especially if your model's shooting doesn't go as well as you would've liked.
Asurmen's Blessing; A single <Dire Avenger> can re-roll to hit that Shooting phase. Would've been better if it was re-roll to wound.
Rune of Ynnead; For 2 CPs, one of your models can take a Flesh Wound instead of going OoA.

Know Your Enemy: Asuryani aren't that good. Their Tactics aren't that good. Your opponent putting 8 Dire Avengers on the board can be a little difficult to handle. But if you just rush them with Melee, they'll fall apart fairly quickly. There's nothing too tricky about dealing with Asuryani...And that's their problem. What you see, is exactly what you get, and all you have to do is just...Remove their models. No particular order. T3, 4+ Armour. 1 Wound each. It's not that hard. Asuryani are bottom-tier for a reason. Extreme lack of customisability, and the tools they do have, aren't even that good.

Power From Pain: Over the course of the Battle Rounds, your Team starts gaining extra bonuses for free. The bonuses are also cumulative.
Round 1. Ignore Wounds (6+)
2. Re-roll to Advance and Charge.
3. +1 to hit in the Fight phase.
4. Re-roll Nerve tests.
5+. Enemy models get -1 Ld whilst any models in your Team are near them.
Ultimately your Drukhari Team should heavily revolve around Melee (as should all Kill Teams, really) with a few Shooty models thrown in just to make sure you can Ready some of your models and try and take out some of your opponent's more problematic models (e.g; Anything with ranged weapons that auto-hit).

Combat Drugs: On top of Power From Pain, your Wyches pick up an extra rule because Warriors are dumb. In any case, what you roll is totally random, and you have no way to re-roll it. At the end of the day, point is, Wyches are better than Warriors. Like...Most of the time.

Kablite Warrior: Same 7 Points as Asuryani Guardians. But, you wound everything in the game on 4+, but you don't get to insta-kill models on 6s to wound. However, your 'long range' is 12", not 6", which means that your Warriors end up being way safer than Guardians, and that's in addition Ignore Wounds (6+), making them more resilient anyway. So, whilst Warriors aren't 'that good' in the grand scheme of Kill Team, they are at least better than Guardians for the same points cost.
Kabalite Warrior Gunner: You get to pick up the Sniper Specialist so that lets you pick up Splinter Cannons for really, really good. Unfortunately, Gunner weapons are capped like some of the worst Kill Teams. So, even though you get two Gunners, you only get one Splinter Cannon. Then again, Shredders are also really, really good. However, Shredders also suffer from being a 'Flamer'-esque weapon that doesn't auto-hit. However, S6 with re-rolls to wound is actually really good. So you should be okay.
Syrabite: Access to Blast Pistols is really strong. With a Blast Pistol, your goal is to get Charged, which means in the following Shooting phase you get to say "Dodge this." and totally wreck whatever has Charged you. That's maybe after you might've had an Overwatch. In any case, Blast Pistols. Really good. It doesn't really matter what Melee weapon you have because Syrabites aren't good in Melee - they're still Aeldari.
Wyches: Depending on what Combat Drugs you roll, Wyches can either be super-broken, or just pretty good. And all of it completely revolves around how soon you can Charge, and whether or not you can even complete your Charges - 'cause Overwatch. Three attacks each (plus Combat Drugs), with a 4+ Invulnerable in the Fight phase, Wyches are actually really strong Melee models if they can get there. Because T3 with a 6+ save, is...Not very good. And at 8 Points each, Wyches don't really have the wiggle room to be...Bad. So you can always switch back to Warriors. But then you become a shooty Team, and there are way better shooty Teams out there, whilst Melee Teams? Not so much. However, Wyches are just so easy to counter because they effectively have no save during Overwatch.
Wych Fighter: Shardnet & Impaler is 2 Damage, giving double Injury rolls. Weirdly, it also comes with AP-1 and +1 Attack. So...Yeah. Still, the problem of survivability doesn't go away. Having access to three Fighters in a Team is also really, really good. More special weapons = More better.
Hekatrix: Same access to Blast Pistols as Syrabites. So that that. But, with the extra Attack coming from being a Wych (plus Combat Drugs and the Invulnerable), a Hekatrix is actually worth a damn in Melee. However, as a Wych, you really want to be doing the Charges, which means that you can't shoot the Blast Pistol. However, with the restriction on your opponent Falling Back, you can actually shoot the Pistol and consolidate into the next model. So...Yeah. The unfortunate thing, is that this falls into the category of 'Things You Can Do', and, taken in a vacuum (i.e; on paper), a Hekatrix appears really, really good - and she is - the problem is the models that she is surrounded by...Just aren't that strong.
Fire and Fade; Make a 7" move after your models shoot. Decent.
Cruel Deception; Fall Back and Shoot in the same Round.
Pray They Don't Take You Alive; If you kill your opponent's Leader in the Fight phase, for 2 CPs, the rest of your opponent's Team gets -1 Leadership. Extremely specific. Expensive. And the ultimate effect isn't even worth it.
Torment Grenade; Use before attacking with a Phanny Launcher. Any model hit by the Phanny Launcher, rolls 3d6 against Leadership (after taking the -1) if you roll higher, the target(s) take a Mortal Wound. For 2 CPs. It's not great. But it's not even close to being a bad idea. The main problem with this Tactic is that you use it before you roll how many shots you have with the Phanny Launcher, and, unfortunately, even if you do have the extra CP lying around, 'number of shots' isn't a roll that you can use Tactical Re-roll for. Remember how Astartes Teams just have to roll to hit, and do D3 Mortal Wounds? And even when they aren't using the Tactic, the model still has a Heavy Bolter, and isn't garbage?

Slicing Noose Expanion As with any Team that gets shafted by GW and only gets 4 Tactics in the Core Rules, you actually need this...
Bloodied Grace; A <Wych> can consolidate 6", instead of 3". Really strong.
Murderous Rivalry; For 2 CPs, if you have two models that completed their Charges within 4" of each other, they attack at 'the same time', which means that you get to Fight with two models before your opponent gets to Fight...Providing that your opponent also has models that Charged that Round. This isn't that great. But, you'll know when you need it, when you need it.
Hyperstimm; A model from your Kill Team with Combat Drugs, doubles the effect of the Drug, for that Round. At the end of the Round, roll a 1 and take a Mortal Wound. This can be amazing if you have a good Drug on board.
Hunt From the Shadows; When one of your models is targeted in the Shooting phase and is Obscured, pay 1 CP to get +1 to saves for the rest of the phase. It's a shame that Wyches only have an Invulnerable in the Fight phase, which means that Wyches die real hard to Pistols in the Shooting phase so this Tactic doesn't work on Wyches, FFS! You have to be Obscured? How would that even work!? Um...Yeah...What was I saying... Point is, I've seen it going around that a Hekatrix can have a 3+ Invulnerable, which is straight up wrong.
Lightning-Fast Reactions; When one of your models is targeted in a phase, pay 1 CP to give your opponent -1 to hit against that model for the rest of the phase. Luckily, this is only 1 CP. So you can use Hunt... in the Shooting phase, and Lightning-Fast... in the same Round, which is actually pretty useful. But, Lightning-Fast... is always going to be the better of the two, if you only have 1 CP left. The best thing about Lightning-Fast... is that you don't need to be Obscured.
Architect of Pain; Give one of your models +1 Round on the Power From Pain table...For one Round.

Sector Imperialis - Profane the Ruins; Choose an Eldritch Ruin (lol) on the board. Models in your Team gets +1 Round to Power From Pain whilst within 1" of the Ruin. This is so bad. Why is it 2 CPs when Killzones are optional and your opponent can just refuse to play? This is awful. And bad. And Tactics based on Terrain are bad.

Know Your Enemy: Similar to the Asuryani, there are no models in the Roster that particularly stand out. Some Teams might have to watch out because Drukhari can start stacking negs to your Leadership. But Leadership only matters once half your models take Flesh Wounds or are dead. And for that to happen, Drukhari actually have to deal wounds, first. Which they can't really do, since only one model in their Team gets a Shredder... Oh, right. Take out the Splinter Cannon ASAP. Other than that, nothing really matters. It's an Aeldari Team with none of the 'main Codex' tricks that make Aeldari armies good.

Players: At 12 Points a model, Harlequins can have up to 8 models in their Team. However, more likely, their Team is going to come out at 5-6 models, because who doesn't like special weapons? With the Flip Belt, Harlequins ignore Terrain and other models. Additionally, with Rising Crescendo, Harlequins roll 3d6 for Charge distance and can declare a Charge within 18", instead of 12". Combining the two rules, means that Harlequins can stay out of Line of Sight indefinitely, and Charge across Terrain - including massive heights - whenever they feel like it. In order to shaft Harlequin players, just make sure that your board isn't exclusively made up of Terrain that block LoS, and never let the Harlequin player set up the Terrain. Additionally, Harlequins always have a 4+ Invulnerable save, just to make life that little bit more difficult.
Fusion Pistols are really good, as they give you an edge when your opponent Charges you, and their massive burst Damage makes life extremely difficult for Tyranid Warriors and Lictors, not to mention the ton of Injury rolls you get to make whenever you shoot from the hip and blow someone away. If you're the one making the Charges, then Fusion Pistols are a total waste of points and what you doing?
Kisses are the multi-Damage Melee weapon, and are therefore the best. However, it's important to remember that x4 Kisses equates to a fifth Harlequin. But that's not so important because Harlequins come stock at Ld8, so who cares how many models you have, as long as they're all good? Which Players, are. If you don't want to shell out for the Kiss, then go with the Caress - especially against Death Guard - then, if you must, go for the Embrace. The only reason to ever have Harlequin Blades is if you actually do want to run the full 8 Players, because you know that your opponent is going to tailor real hard against you, and 4+ Invulnerables only go so far.
Prismatic Blur; When a model Advances, they get a 3++ for 1 CP. Decent.
Cegorach's Jest; When your opponent Falls Back, you can shoot them in the back for 2 CPs. Not bad.
Warrior Acrobats; Auto-Advance 6". Combine with Prismatic Blur for a total of 2 CPs for the Round.
War Dancers; At the end of the Fight phase, pick one of your models to Fight again. Probably not as useful for Harlequins, since anything in Melee with them should already be dead. That said, if they're not dead, they're going to be a severe problem if you don't kill them (e.g; Deathwatch and Tyranids).
Fire and Fade; The standard Aeldari fare. 7" Move after you shoot.
Mirthless Hatred; One of your models can re-roll to hit and wound against <Slaanesh> models in the Fight phase... Not that you'd need it.

Know Your Enemy: Harlequins' Invulnerable save is better than their normal save. So any time you actually pay points for a weapon with AP, you're wasting your points. If it's S4 or over, and/or does multi-Damage, that's good enough to deal with Harlequins. Especially 'cause S4+, AP- is usually cheaper. Even Frag Grenades can give Harlequins some serious problems, because for free, you get to do a lot of shots. Anyway, Harlequins only have one trick in their arsenal; That is, Charging you. If you bring a ton of models with weapons that auto-hit, there's not really anything that they can do against you (unless they've set up the terrain so that it's only LoS Blocking stuff on the board). Additionally, most Harlequin teams are paying through the nose for weapons with AP values (just like you normally would), so if you're Deathwatch, just strap on Storm Shields and there's not really a lot that they can do, especially since you're also Space Marines, and are ignoring Flesh Wounds...Just try and stay out of range of those Fusion Pistols.

Xenos

Reanimation Protocols: After your opponent rolls for Injury, roll a '6'. Your model isn't Injured at all, and remove all Flesh Wounds. This is pretty good, and extremely good when your model just straight up heals 2 Flesh Wounds and goes back to nothing wrong. Happens after every Injury roll. Good stuff. Unfortunately, it's really, the only trick that Necrons have.

Necron Warriors: 12 Points each. Shoot Gauss.

Immortals: 16 Points for not much at all. Unfortunately, GW screwed the pooch, and forgot to make Tesla happen on an 'unmodified 6'. Which, in Kill Team, with the massive amount of negs to hit you get, will mean that Tesla will rarely - if ever - process. Good job GW, you ruined it.

Flayed Ones: Flayed Ones are...Actually pretty good. At 10 Points each and 3 Attacks each, with re-rolls to wound, they're actually not bad at all. Unfortunately their Move of 5" is fairly bad, and you're really relying on that Veteran Advance at the start of the game to get into Melee.

Deathmark: Better than an Immortal with Tesla ('cause GW ****ed it up), but worse than an Immortal with Gauss. Occasionally you'll do Mortal Wounds.

Prime Reanimation Protocols; For 2 CPs, your opponent rolls 2 Injury dice against your model and picks the lowest...And then you roll a '6' and ignore it?
Disruption Fields; Give one of your models +1 Strength until the end of the Fight phase.
Targeting Protocols; +1 to hit against a model that's Obscured. So...One Tesla will be good? In any case, this does not say 'ignore Obscuration'. That would be a different thing.
Mindshackle Scarabs; In the Shooting phase, pick an enemy model within 6" of any of yours. Roll 2d6 against their Leadership. If you win, you can make a shooting attack with your opponent's models as if it was part of your Team. Really amazingly strong when it works. That's why it's 2 CPs.
Flensing Fury; When a <Flayed One> rolls a 6+ to wound in the Fight phase, +1 Damage on that attack. Neat. Especially 'cause Flayed Ones re-roll to wound, and you should absolutely turn those 1s into 6s.
Overcharged Disintegration; Give a Gauss weapon in your Team an extra -1 AP for one phase...For 2 CPs. :smallyuk:

Expansion Announced. Check back later for more Tactics.

Know Your Enemy: You do not want to be giving Necrons Flesh Wounds, 'cause that means that they're not dead, which means on the next Injury roll, they can roll a '6' and go back to full health. Your goal against Necrons is to go straight to OoA, do not pass 'Go'. There's always a chance they can roll a '6' and ignore OoA. But the point is, that the more Flesh Wounds they eventually get, the more chances they have to roll a '6' and ignore everything. That means...You guessed it...Multi-Damage weapons! It's also important to remember that Necrons have very little Melee power at all, and they have no weapons that auto-hit during Overwatch. So, if you can Charge them, do so.

[9mm]

While we wait for the FAQ to drop, its time to work on kill team models.


https://i.postimg.cc/yN5vk2Jw/0926182128.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/8zZyV7Tk/0926182129.jpg


hmm wonder how I'd go about kit bashing the hanging gun to the pointing arm...

[druid91]

So, in Kill Team, we have a situation where Terrain actually does something; -1 to hit, -1 to Injury. As predicted, and just like 5th Ed., when terrain is actually worth having, shooty models effectively become meaningless unless they are the best shooty models, and all's anyone ever tries to do is Melee each other. Isn't that what I said would happen if you made Terrain actually matter? What a fun game. :smallsigh:

1.) Lay traps on Terrain to punish moving on or around it to funnel the enemy into the open.

2.) Line up a gunline to take advantage of such.

3.) ????

4.) Profit.

[Cheesegear]

1.) Lay traps on Terrain to punish moving on or around it to funnel the enemy into the open.

2.) Line up a gunline to take advantage of such.

3.) ????

4.) Profit.

"Terrain too strong, nerf gunlines."
Solution; Make life difficult for only counter. :smallconfused:

[Forum Explorer]

Guide to Kill Team
Part 3 - Choosing a Kill Team (Xenos)

Part 1; (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23369206&postcount=47) What makes a Kill Team work?
Part 2; (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23373026&postcount=59) Check out the top, for why Injury matters, and what makes a good Specialist.

<Aeldari>

Ancient Doom: Re-roll in the Fight phase against <Slaanesh> models on a turn in which you Charge or are Charged. Don't even read this sentence. Heretic Astartes will destroy you in Melee, and you can bet that when Slaaneshi Daemons rock up in Kill Team, they'll ruin you, too. Additionally, you have +1 to Nerve tests within 3" of any <Slaanesh> models...That is, if Slaanesh models start to Melee you, you're in trouble, and the first part of Ancient Doom only tricks you into thinking you have a chance.

Battle Focus: You don't count as Advancing when you do. This is pretty good since everything you own that's actually any good in your Roster is an Assault weapon. Solid.

Guardian Defenders: 7 Points a dude is pretty good. Unfortunately, they're 7 Points because they're trash. And other Factions only pay 4 Points for their trash. No. The reason you take Guardian Defenders is because of their guns. Assault 2 with the possibility of AP-3. Unfortunately, the guns only have a 12" range. But that's good, because you can Advance without penalties and get into that short range. Nice. In response? Your opponent Readies their entire Team and kills you before you get to shoot. So, yeah. You want to go second, that way you know if your opponent has Readied or not before you front up and get all your models killed. Still, without Sniper, your Heavy weapons are also basically useless...
Heavy Weapon Platform: Pick up the Scatter Laser. If you're going to be taking -2 to hit (which you will be) you may as well want the most shots you can, in order to roll some 6s and actually get some use out of the ~10 Point model you picked up.
Storm Guardians: Hot garbage.
Storm Guardian Gunner: The Battle Focus on the Fusion Gun is neat. Unfortunately, without Demolitions or the ability to spam, the Flamers barely work like they do in other Factions (specifically, Orks). At the end of the day, Guardians are still Guardians, and the only thing that matters is the guns they hold. But the guns they hold...Aren't even that good.
Rangers: They're effectively going to give your opponent -3 to hit, which is really strong, and, on the return, you don't even take negs to hit based on Long Range. Unfortunately the main problem is that S4, AP- isn't anything. And you still have to remember that in Kill Team, an unsaved Wound doesn't necessarily even remove models from the board, and if your target is Obscured, you have even less chance of removing a model.

Dire Avengers: Better Armour, and better range on the guns. Which means that you don't actually have to leave your Deployment Zone to be in Short Range, which means you're less likely to take another neg to hit. Which actually means that your guns are more effective. The difference between Guardian Defenders and Dire Avengers is only 3 Points. Which only means that ultimately for every three 'Avengers, you could take x4 Guardians instead. As aforementioned; Better Armour, Better Guns. Not a huge loss. Losing one model wont break you. Avengers are also slightly better at Melee, 'cause they Overwatch on a 5+ (but you don't have Pistols...). But you still need that Guardian Defender if you want to take that Heavy Weapon Platform. :smallsigh:
Dire Avenger Exarch: Pick up the Twin Catapults and shoot as much as you want. Dire Avengers are fine in Melee, but will get rolled by anything that's actually worth a damn. The Shimmershield is bad, because it has a 2" range, which actually means that your opponent gets to shoot your other models, as well. As opposed to not having your stuff 2" together, which means that your dudes can't even get shot at, so why do they need an Invulnerable? Point is, Dire Avenger Exarchs are the best thing that the Asuryani have...And they're still not even that good. Sorry.
Matchless Agility; Auto-roll 6" for your Advance. Very good if your opponent goes first and hasn't Readied his models.
Feigned Retreat; Fall Back and Shoot. For 1 CP it will get you out of Melee. But the real amazing part is that your model actually survived Melee against a dedicated opponent.
Phantasm; Redeploy a single model. For 2 CPs this isn't even close to worth it. Since your first turn will then be spent barely competing.
Fire and Fade; Make a normal Move, after Shooting. Nice. Especially if your model's shooting doesn't go as well as you would've liked.
Asurmen's Blessing; A single <Dire Avenger> can re-roll to hit that Shooting phase. Would've been better if it was re-roll to wound.
Rune of Ynnead; For 2 CPs, one of your models can take a Flesh Wound instead of going OoA.

Know Your Enemy: Asuryani aren't that good. Their Tactics aren't that good. Your opponent putting 8 Dire Avengers on the board can be a little difficult to handle. But if you just rush them with Melee, they'll fall apart fairly quickly. There's nothing too tricky about dealing with Asuryani...And that's their problem. What you see, is exactly what you get, and all you have to do is just...Remove their models. No particular order. T3, 4+ Armour. 1 Wound each. It's not that hard. Asuryani are bottom-tier for a reason. Extreme lack of customisability, and the tools they do have, aren't even that good.


I actually recommend Starcannons. With a 36 inch range you can pretty much always be in range, and usually in half range. Then use a Comms specialist to negate the penalty for obscured. The big thing with Starcannons is the multiple damage, because Eldar really need to remove models fast to have a chance at all.


So, in Kill Team, we have a situation where Terrain actually does something; -1 to hit, -1 to Injury. As predicted, and just like 5th Ed., when terrain is actually worth having, shooty models effectively become meaningless unless they are the best shooty models, and all's anyone ever tries to do is Melee each other. Isn't that what I said would happen if you made Terrain actually matter? What a fun game. :smallsigh:

Yes, and the other penalties to hit, plus the fact that the board size is tiny has nothing at all to do with it. :smalltongue:

Oh, and not to mention that charging happens in the movement phase, and not the assault phase. And getting charged means you don't get a shooting phase. Then if you win initiative and fall back, you just get charged again so you still can't shoot. You can't even shoot a pistol if you get charged that turn which is all kinds of bull.

With every faction having access to Veteran so first turn charges are very common, and many missions requiring you to get close, or to get in melee, it's really not a surprise that it's a melee centric game.

[9mm]

Yes, and the other penalties to hit, plus the fact that the board size is tiny has nothing at all to do with it. :smalltongue:

Oh, and not to mention that charging happens in the movement phase, and not the assault phase. And getting charged means you don't get a shooting phase. Then if you win initiative and fall back, you just get charged again so you still can't shoot. You can't even shoot a pistol if you get charged that turn which is all kinds of bull.

With every faction having access to Veteran so first turn charges are very common, and many missions requiring you to get close, or to get in melee, it's really not a surprise that it's a melee centric game.

Whats been funny is nearly all of my victories have been off the back of my shooting. Though I'd love the pistols to be changed to always being able to shoot if you started in combat during the initiative phase, so staggered charges doesn't constantly deny pistol shots but also prevents a shooter to double tap with overwatch/shooting on the first charge.

[Cheesegear]

Whats been funny is nearly all of my victories have been off the back of my shooting.

That's not funny. That's actually fairly normal. That's what is so effective about gunlines. Your opponent can Move or Charge. They can't do both. Which means all's you have to do is deploy a little bit back from the edge of your DZ, and Ready your entire Team. You've already won the game. Melee is hot garbage in Kill Team vs. a dedicated gunline. Then again...It's not like gunline vs. gunline is a good game, either, since neither of you will hit anything, ever, and everything comes down to who has the most shots, and who rolls the most 6s, first.

The problem, is that there are exactly two Factions that are good at Melee; Tyranids and Harlequins (and even then, not Tyranids, either). They're so good at Melee that people who don't optimise their gunline, fill their board with only LoS-blocking terrain (my stuff can't shoot anything!), and deploy badly, that simply get dominated in Melee because they're bad at games... Don't even get me started when people start firing off single-shot weapons and Mortal Wounds that deal 1 Damage and only cause a single Flesh Wound and then they complain. That's not how Kill Team works. Kill Team is a format where Krak Grenades are one of the best weapons in the game - let that sink in for a bit.

Shooting wins games. Melee counters. But shooting still wins, first.


so staggered charges doesn't constantly deny pistol shots but also prevents a shooter to double tap with overwatch/shooting on the first charge.

...I actually had to look that up. That's a real rule.
You can't shoot a Pistol if you received a Charge that turn.
This changes everything.

[Turalisj]

You've got the skitarii vanguard guns wrong, it's damage 3 on a wound roll of 6. Which changes a lot because it's rather easy to flesh wound an enemy to death, especially one with a bad save.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Going to a tournament this weekend with a probably terrible list , but the only real way to test a tournament list is at a tournament and I have another 5 booked for this year.I've been playing Tyranids too long to own any of the good models and there's no point in buying stuff to compete in a pre September FAQ meta (and I'm mostly just waiting for Genestealer Cults to get their codex).

Army Faction: Tyranids
Total Command Points: 14
Total Army Points: 2000

Battallion Detachment, Hive Fleet Behemoth [756 points], +5 cp
HQ1: Old One Eye (200) – Warlord
[200pts]
HQ2: Tyranid Prime (100), pair of boneswords (2), rending claws (2), flesh hooks (2), adrenal glands (1)
[107pts]
TR1: 3 Tyranid Warriors (60), 3x rending claws (2), 2x death spitters (5), barbed strangler (10), 3x adrenal glands (1).
[89pts]
TR2: 3 Tyranid Warriors (60), 3x rending claws (2), 2x death spitters (5), barbed strangler (10), 3x adrenal glands (1).
[89pts]
TR3: 3 Tyranid Warriors (60), 3x rending claws (2), 2x death spitters (5), barbed strangler (10), 3x adrenal glands (1).
[89pts]
EL1: 3 Venomthropes (90)
[90pts]
HS1: Trygon (108), toxinspike tail (1), adrenal glands (5), colossal scything talons (60), toxin sacs (8)
[182pts]
Battallion Detachment, Hive Fleet Behemoth [800 points], +5 cp
HQ1: Neurothrope (70)
[70pts]
HQ2: Neurothrope (70)
[70pts]
TR1: 3 Tyranid Warriors (60), 3x rending claws (2), 2x death spitters (5), venom cannon (20), 3x adrenal glands (1).
[99pts]
TR2: 3 Tyranid Warriors (60), 3x rending claws (2), 2x death spitters (5), venom cannon (20), 3x adrenal glands (1).
[99pts]
TR3: 3 Tyranid Warriors (60), 2x pair of boneswords (2), rending claws (2), 2x pair of spinefists (1), barbed strangler (10), 3x adrenal glands (1).
[81pts]
HS1: 3 Carnifex (201), x3 pair of monstrous scything talons (15), x3 adrenal glands (5), x3 sporecysts (10)
[291pts]
Supreme Command Detachment, Genestealer Cults [444 points], +1 cp
HQ1: Magus (73), force stave (0), autopistol (0)
[73pts]
HQ3: Abominant (80), rending claws (0), power sledgehammer (0)
[80pts]
HQ3: Primus (71), bonesword (5), needle pistol (0), toxin injector claw (0)
[75pts]
EL1: 7 Aberrants (119), 2x power pick (10), 4x power hammer (16), hypermorph tail (Aberrant hypermorph, 2), heavy improvised weapon ( Aberrant hypermorph, 10), 7x rending claws (0)
[209 points]

I've tried a similar list and did better than I should have (won a game on maelstrom points despite being almost tabled, beat orks on maelstrom points and time, did okay against Custodes bikers and Blood Angels but couldn't draw any achievable maelstrom cards). On the other hand last sunday I took a more efficient version of this list to a 1250 tournament and lost 2 games by 1 point each (I probably would have come second if the last game hadn't ended on turn 5 and in the first game I lost on time despite reducing a custodes bike army to two models). Only thing that will completely screw me over is if I have to fight Helverins on a table with no ruins.

There are at least enough non-competitive lists there that I shouldn't lose more than 3 out of 5 games but I'm not going to be in the top quarter without a lot of luck.

Last saturday I took Black Templars to another tournament and managed to come 20th out of 24 with 2 draws 1 loss so I actually kind of did better at that one than the next day with my underperforming 1250 of tyranids. This will be my 4th tournament of the month. First one was the Warhammer World GT heat 2 where I won 2 out of 5 games with my Deathguard. That was miserable as I was either almost incapable of winning thanks to match ups or incapable of losing.

[Cheesegear]

I actually recommend Starcannons. With a 36 inch range you can pretty much always be in range, and usually in half range. Then use a Comms specialist to negate the penalty for obscured. The big thing with Starcannons is the multiple damage, because Eldar really need to remove models fast to have a chance at all.

...I can't say I agree. But you do bring up a good point about pairing with a Comms Specialist.


You've got the skitarii vanguard guns wrong, it's damage 3 on a wound roll of 6.

I see. Literally the weapon under it, has Damage 2. Good looking out. I don't think I've ever seen someone play with Damage 2 Carbines, gimping themselves. It's more likely a typo, or a lapse in judgement during typing. I don't think I recall anyone playing with Damage 2 Carbines. But I do know, explicitly, that people in my meta have been double-tapping with Pistols on the turn they get Charged (especially our local Harlequin player, who spams Fusion Pistols).


Which changes a lot because it's rather easy to flesh wound an enemy to death, especially one with a bad save.

In any case, Damage 3 doesn't make it any easier to 'Flesh Wound an Enemy to death'. A multi-Damage weapon rolls as many Injury dice as Damage, and only picks the highest. Thus, a multi-Damage weapon is less likely to deal Flesh Wounds (because you pick the highest), and, even if you were to roll two 1s, and a 3, it would still only result in exactly one Flesh Wound.

[Wraith]

Guide to Kill Team - Part 3

I'm genuinely looking forward to your next instalment to see how it matches up to the 'common opinion' in my area. My resident Ork player has recommended that the best thing you can do with Orks is to just take ~30 Grots and that will ruin someone's day, though I feel like there ought to be more to it than that.... :smalltongue:

On a tangentially related, note, I wonder if GW will release an expansion for Kill Team that allows players to build more thematic lists.
What they have printed is pretty bare bones, and it's very stunted when you're trying to make something like a thematic Black Templars warband; you can kind of do it with the Deathwatch faction, if you pretend that a Power Maul/Thunder Hammer is a Crozius and a Xenophase Blade is a Black Blade, but there's a lot of gaps that could be filled quite easily.

Space Marine Chapters, Chaos Marine Legions, Ork Klans, Aeldari Craftworlds, even something for Hive Fleets.... I don't think it would take very much in terms of new rules being written (maybe even just some wargear options being changed around) and it would allow for a lot more variety.

[Cheesegear]

My resident Ork player has recommended that the best thing you can do with Orks is to just take ~30 Grots and that will ruin someone's day...

If you can roll enough 6s. :smallwink:


On a tangentially related, note, I wonder if GW will release an expansion for Kill Team that allows players to build more thematic lists.

It depends how well Commanders (the thing that Shadow War had for free) sells, I guess.

But I doubt it. I think when GW gets back on the 40K Train for Orks, GSC, Chapter Approved '18 and then Sisters, and then probably 'Agents of the Inquisition' and almost certainly something new for Marines given the complaints across all Marine books, and how Primaris Marines are currently barely scraping by. I just don't think GW is going to care once they get the ball rolling.

As with Shadow War, I really feel like Kill Team is simply a stop-gap because GW can't think of anything to release, that wouldn't be better released during Q4. Hence why Kill Team is just Necronmunda again. :smallmad:

[Blackhawk748]

I remember when i read Cheese's guide for the first time and my reaction was "Thats it?". It wasn't targetted at Cheese, but at the fact that most factions only have 3-5 units to choose from and one is their Leader (or two in some cases), and i just can't get why? With so few units to choose from every list is going to look the same simply because theres no flipping options!

Also the lack of Sub Factions is just a crime.

[9mm]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/09/28/28th-sept-warhammer-40000-big-faq-2-the-low-downgw-homepage-post-1/

FAQS UP!

[Tome]

Let's see, what did Tau get?

Huh, absolutely nothing.

Welp, guess I'm still not playing any 40k.

[druid91]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/09/28/28th-sept-warhammer-40000-big-faq-2-the-low-downgw-homepage-post-1/

FAQS UP!

So... Basically as past FAQs. "Is it good? NERF IT INTO THE GROUND!"

[Aresneo]

It's mostly deepstrike nerfs. The CP recovery nerf might make guard brigades mandatory for competitive imperium lists, especially with all of the strategem cost increases. The lack of points changes means that this will likely have limited effect on the meta compared to the first faq.

Hopefully chapter approved actually fixes things.

[Forum Explorer]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/09/28/28th-sept-warhammer-40000-big-faq-2-the-low-downgw-homepage-post-1/

FAQS UP!

Interesting and disappointing

Major notes:
- Tactical reserves is now second or third turn only. No more hiding an important shooting unit turn 1.
- 2 CP to give your entire army (even vehicles, but not Titanic) a cover save.
- Command Point regen can only get you 1 CP per round. So basically 6 Command Points per game. That's the biggest change right there.
- A bunch of stratagems went up 1 CP, including Agents of Vect which is now the first 4 CP stratagem in the game.
- Slabshields no longer effect Invulnerable saves, so Bullgryns can't use that combo anymore
- Daemon Invulnerables can only be buffed up to a 4++ so no getting a 2++ there either.
- Fly no longer ignore vertical distances on the charge
- Raven Guard's ability is now a 9 inch move at the start of the game, rather then deploying 9 inches away. Ditto with all the equivelents throughout the game.
-Rangers now SUA rather then deploy before turn 1.

[Requizen]

Let's see, what did Tau get?

Huh, absolutely nothing.

Welp, guess I'm still not playing any 40k.

Same for Necrons. The Disembark change for Night Scythes and Monos is alright, but by far not enough.


Though they didn't really talk about it, they also did upload the Kill Team FAQ and Commentary. Some interesting notes:

-Comms base ability can no longer affect themselves
-Scions can only take Comms if they have a Vox Caster (so no more Plasma Guns with Comms)
-Flail of Corruption got nerfed to Damage 1
-CSM gained Combat Specialist
-Necron Tesla shots changed to UNMODIFIED HITS OF 6 and therefore no longer complete garbage (though Gauss likely still better)
-Some clarifications on things like failed charges, Leaps, who rolls Injury Dice (always attacker, contrary to the rulebook), etc.

There's a lot more for armies that I don't know as well, so read through imo.

[Ornithologist]

Blood Angel FAQ just went away entirely. Neat, I get a few more hours of pretending its not super awful.

aside from what they already posted in the main FAQ

[Blackhawk748]

- Raven Guard's ability is now a 9 inch move at the start of the game, rather then deploying 9 inches away. Ditto with all the equivelents throughout the game.

OH COME ON! I was paying good CP (which you are not getting back now) to use that ability and you can only use it on Turn 1. It was a gamble to set up that close to your opponent and in the case of Ad Mech, it was really our only source of SUA. (no Infiltrators don't count)

Wow, thanks GW, thanks for just endlessly nerfing absolutely everything that was ever fun and interesting. And you wonder why people stop playing?

[bluntpencil]

So, very few major changes to the most powerful combos right now.

Stacking -1s to hit, not touched. Cheap Guard battalions fueling CP for Astartes, not touched. Slam Captains - minor nerf, but they're rerolling charges anyway. No points changes for powerful units.

No big deal.

[Ornithologist]

They did say the points changes will be in Chapter Approved in December. So I can expect to be nerfed more then.

[Cheesegear]

FAQS UP!

So, major problems right now include, but not limited to...

Guard Brigades have too many Command Points. Combine with a Battalion of anything for a ****-ton.
Blood Angels' (and Custodes') first-turn Charges seem a little bit strong, and can slot into a Guard Brigade for some reason.
Knight Castellan Oathbreakers are ruining the game.
Aeldari keep stacking negs to hit.
Chaos Marine hordes (all three varieties) seem way too strong for their points cost.

1. No Reserves on Turn 1. At all.
This is a kick in the ****. Especially against models doing first-turn Charges. The defence was, that you'd put your stuff in Reserve, so that it couldn't be Charged. Your opponent Charges you, then you say "Oh well." and put your stuff in your own DZ anyway like you planned to. So that counter is...Gone. I wonder what they replaced it with? ...Silly me. Nothing. I should've known. No seriously. Who thought Reserves on Turn 1 only coming in your own DZ wasn't too hard of a nerf? ...No. Put your hand up. I need names so I know who is total trash at the game.

2. Infiltrate Nerfs
Raven Guard, Alpha Legion and Stygies VIII were nerfed to a 9" Move instead of SUA. That's fine. Unfortunately wont put you in Rapid Fire range on Turn 1. But it's still really good. Not quite sure how this refers to the main problems currently plaguing the game. I guess filthy casuals were complaining because 'Raven Guard too good' or some nonsense. AdMech had exactly one good trick? ...Sure. Take it away. No-one was playing AdMech anyway, right?

3. Prepared Positions
For 2 CPs your entire army gets Cover on Turn 1 if you go second. You know. Because Guard Brigades are obviously strapped for CPs, have a ****-ton of units and most of the time go second, and thus, need an advantage. Good job, GW. This is really good defense against Venom spam. Who needs that? ...You're right. Hordes do. :smallsigh:

4. Tactical Restraint
You can only ever gain/refund 1 CP per Round. This is a huge kick in the junk for pretty much every army...Except Guard Brigades. Because why would GW nerf those. Although hopefully points increases in CH'18 make Brigades a little harder to do. Hopefully.

5. Stratagems
Warp Surge too strong. Apparently Storm Shields are too good, so they made the nerf 4+.
Upon Wings of Fire slight nerf. Death Visions & Forlorn Fury still very much fair game... Or just go straight to running x15 Death Company like I planned. Depends how points change. At the end of the day, I simply see everyone subbing their (second) Captain for Lemartes for basically no difference.
Oathbreaker Guidance System ...Turns out 'Rotate Ion Shields' was not the problem. Dur.
Order of Companions ...Good.
Our Darkest Hour ...Aww.
Agents of Vect ...And that's what you get for playing Aeldari. Still, the Stratagem was cleared up so that yes, an Auxiliary of a single unit of Warriors (x5) is enough for you to get it. Still, at 4 CPs, probably don't want to take another -1 off the top, as well.

Problems that were addressed...
Grand Total...
*Drum Roll pleeese*...

Castellan Oathbreakers might not happen four times per game anymore.
<Alpha Legion Slaaneshi> Cultists aren't as totally broken anymore.
Apparently AdMech were a problem. But they're just out of the meta (for the minor part of it that they had) now.
...That's it.

Armies that remain totally strong...
Guard Brigades & Custodes Jetbikes.
Horde armies that go second.
Aeldari Codecies

*head. through. the desk*

Without points changes, this update is pretty much meaningless. :smallsigh:
Wait for CH'18.

[Turalisj]

I love having every army I play get hit with a nerf every time an update happens.

[Requizen]

I mean, I'm glad they're trying at least. They're taking feedback and results to make some decisions. They just... still happen to be pretty bad at it.

At least in 40k. Somehow, you can tell a big design and rule writing differential between 40k and AoS (and even KT and Underworlds), it just seems silly that their biggest system is the one that gets the crap end of the stick.

[Cheesegear]

I love having every army I play get hit with a nerf every time an update happens.

Just don't ever play anything good. Problem solved. :smallsigh:

"What's the point in even buying models, if they're just going to get nerfed?" - Guy in my meta who uses Proxies all the time and gets flakk for it.
...Can't even say that he's totally wrong, either. :smallmad:


I mean, I'm glad they're trying at least. They're taking feedback and results to make some decisions. They just... still happen to be pretty bad at it.

It feels like they get a massive heads up from tournament data.
However, a whole bunch of people don't even play tournaments. So, in actual fact, the majority of feedback comes from people are total **** at the game who 'just can't even' when a problem presents itself. This is exemplified by Guilliman and Celestine. Celestine is a huge pain in the arse because she's cheap, fast and extremely reliable. Guilliman is total garbage, because he relies on models around him to be good. But, Celestine is a very underused model - even in tournaments - whilst Guilliman is extreme casual bait because he's Guilliman (something about Patriarchy too, because apparently that's how the community works, now). Celestine had her points changed, but not nerfed. But Guilliman was nerfed, twice.
Why?
Who was complaining about Guilliman?
Was there are major GT I missed where he appeared in 50% of all lists at the day?
Casuals were complaining about Guilliman. A lot.

TOs; We're getting word from the TOs that Celestine is slightly overpowered for her points cost. Maybe make her 300? :smallconfused:
GW; That's not what's happening on Facebook. Our feedback from the community is that it's Guilliman who's overpowered.
TOs; You heaard of Auxiliaries? For -1 CP? She's really good.
GW; Our sales show that no-one even uses Celestine. Because no-one plays the game like that. Everyone wants Sisters. And if you don't play Sisters, then why do you need Celestine? We need to nerf Guilliman. Facebook is telling us to!
TOs; Literally no-one with a working brain thinks that.
GW; We'll give them what they want. We're the New GW!

[Voidhawk]

The Riddle of GW: "Which is worse: an endless circle of Codex power-creep, or a bottomless spiral of FAQ-nerfs?"

Trick question! GW gives you both at once!

[Wraith]

GW; We'll give them what they want. We're the New GW!

In a twisted way, I would almost admire that. GW does something, people complain about it, so GW changes it and now they're complaining again.

The moral of this story is; quit back-seat driving and be grateful for what you DO have, 'cuz we will turn this tabletop wargame around and go home RIGHT NOW if we have to tell you one more time! If you knew what you were talking about, you'd be running your own multi-million dollar company, but you AREN'T so you DON'T! :smalltongue:

[Blackhawk748]

The Riddle of GW: "Which is worse: an endless circle of Codex power-creep, or a bottomless spiral of FAQ-nerfs?"

Trick question! GW gives you both at once!

"Let them taste what true power is like, then we'll nerf it into the ground!!"


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/85/Legion_of_Doom.jpg



In a twisted way, I would almost admire that. GW does something, people complain about it, so GW changes it and now they're complaining again.

The moral of this story is; quit back-seat driving and be grateful for what you DO have, 'cuz we will turn this tabletop wargame around and go home RIGHT NOW if we have to tell you one more time! If you knew what you were talking about, you'd be running your own multi-million dollar company, but you AREN'T so you DON'T! :smalltongue:

Except that the people who actually built that multi-million dollar game have left to go do other things. Things that are generally better balanced

Joke Executed, returning to base

[Renegade Paladin]

I'm genuinely looking forward to your next instalment to see how it matches up to the 'common opinion' in my area. My resident Ork player has recommended that the best thing you can do with Orks is to just take ~30 Grots and that will ruin someone's day, though I feel like there ought to be more to it than that.... :smalltongue:

Can't do it. You're not allowed to field more than 20 models.

[Forum Explorer]

So, major problems right now include, but not limited to...

Guard Brigades have too many Command Points. Combine with a Battalion of anything for a ****-ton.
Blood Angels' (and Custodes') first-turn Charges seem a little bit strong, and can slot into a Guard Brigade for some reason.
Knight Castellan Oathbreakers are ruining the game.
Aeldari keep stacking negs to hit.
Chaos Marine hordes (all three varieties) seem way too strong for their points cost.

1. No Reserves on Turn 1. At all.
This is a kick in the ****. Especially against models doing first-turn Charges. The defence was, that you'd put your stuff in Reserve, so that it couldn't be Charged. Your opponent Charges you, then you say "Oh well." and put your stuff in your own DZ anyway like you planned to. So that counter is...Gone. I wonder what they replaced it with? ...Silly me. Nothing. I should've known. No seriously. Who thought Reserves on Turn 1 only coming in your own DZ wasn't too hard of a nerf? ...No. Put your hand up. I need names so I know who is total trash at the game.

2. Infiltrate Nerfs
Raven Guard, Alpha Legion and Stygies VIII were nerfed to a 9" Move instead of SUA. That's fine. Unfortunately wont put you in Rapid Fire range on Turn 1. But it's still really good. Not quite sure how this refers to the main problems currently plaguing the game. I guess filthy casuals were complaining because 'Raven Guard too good' or some nonsense. AdMech had exactly one good trick? ...Sure. Take it away. No-one was playing AdMech anyway, right?

3. Prepared Positions
For 2 CPs your entire army gets Cover on Turn 1 if you go second. You know. Because Guard Brigades are obviously strapped for CPs, have a ****-ton of units and most of the time go second, and thus, need an advantage. Good job, GW. This is really good defense against Venom spam. Who needs that? ...You're right. Hordes do. :smallsigh:

4. Tactical Restraint
You can only ever gain/refund 1 CP per Round. This is a huge kick in the junk for pretty much every army...Except Guard Brigades. Because why would GW nerf those. Although hopefully points increases in CH'18 make Brigades a little harder to do. Hopefully.

5. Stratagems
Warp Surge too strong. Apparently Storm Shields are too good, so they made the nerf 4+.
Upon Wings of Fire slight nerf. Death Visions & Forlorn Fury still very much fair game... Or just go straight to running x15 Death Company like I planned. Depends how points change. At the end of the day, I simply see everyone subbing their (second) Captain for Lemartes for basically no difference.
Oathbreaker Guidance System ...Turns out 'Rotate Ion Shields' was not the problem. Dur.
Order of Companions ...Good.
Our Darkest Hour ...Aww.
Agents of Vect ...And that's what you get for playing Aeldari. Still, the Stratagem was cleared up so that yes, an Auxiliary of a single unit of Warriors (x5) is enough for you to get it. Still, at 4 CPs, probably don't want to take another -1 off the top, as well.

Problems that were addressed...
Grand Total...
*Drum Roll pleeese*...

Castellan Oathbreakers might not happen four times per game anymore.
<Alpha Legion Slaaneshi> Cultists aren't as totally broken anymore.
Apparently AdMech were a problem. But they're just out of the meta (for the minor part of it that they had) now.
...That's it.

Armies that remain totally strong...
Guard Brigades & Custodes Jetbikes.
Horde armies that go second.
Aeldari Codecies

*head. through. the desk*

Without points changes, this update is pretty much meaningless. :smallsigh:
Wait for CH'18.

Agreed. They did pretty much one thing (Tactical Restraint) which I felt needed to be done. Everything else was mostly pointless. I mean, I like the idea of Prepared Positions, but I don't think it's going to have that much of an impact.

What really gets me though is that they said that they got rid of reserves on turn 1 because they got feedback that deploying in your own zone was 'too complicated'. So yeah, some people apparently really do need to be put on a list of crap players.

[Cheesegear]

In a twisted way, I would almost admire that. GW does something, people complain about it, so GW changes it and now they're complaining again.

Did you just go full Tumblr? Where you imply that the 'people' complaining about one thing, are the exact same people complaining about a different thing?

The issue is, that it seems very much like that GW is listening to the wrong people. For all the TOs' advice from NOVA and BAO, it doesn't look like GW did anything that the competitive community wanted. So much so that I envision what should have happened was this...

TOs; Here are the problems with the game, here's how we think you should fix it.
GW; Cool beans. We have to make model sales, so we'll have a compromise of [this], instead.

Instead, what really, really, really looks like what happened is this...

Community; We this [this] is broken. We have no idea what we're talking about. And we're bad at games. Can you use an Apothecary to bring back an Armorium Cherub? Real Question, by the way. Go on. Check for yourself.
W; Hey TOs, this is what our (vocal and stupid) community says is wrong with the game. How do we fix it?
TOs; Well, to fix that problem, you'd need to do [this]. But that's not really the issu-
GW; K thx bye.

The other thing I kind of just...Accepted. Was that if there is a 'problem', and GW doesn't fix it. Then it's a feature. Not a bug.
If it's broken, and not nerfed, then it's working as intended, and GW wont fix it, because it isn't a problem.

Then again, I don't really want to talk too hard about this, 'cause we don't know if certain models will get nerfed via CH'18, and points costs.


Agreed. They did pretty much one thing (Tactical Restraint) which I felt needed to be done.

Strongly disagree.

Every CP counts, now. And since you can only regen 1 CP back per Round, it means that you need to start the game, with more of them.
Guard Battalions and Brigades will now explode out of control. I'm painting mine as we speak. If I can't Adept of the Codex + Veritas Vitae anymore, then I'll take the flat +5 at the start of the game, thanks. Except now I'm replacing Veritas Vitae with Angel's Wing, which everyone tells me is better anyway.

Grand Strategist + Kurov's Aquila got nerfed? Cool. So did Kabal of the Black Heart. So did Ultramarines and Dark Angels. So did Necrons. But you know what? Way to fail. Guard are still going to start the game with at least 15 CPs, and they're going to regen CPs at the same rate as everyone else.

Tactical Restraint doesn't fix anything.
Obviously, +6 CPs per turn probably wasn't intended.
But, the problem is that GW made a blanket nerf so the ratios stayed the same. Which means that Guard remain on top, and CP banks are still mandatory for competitive play.

I'll hold my breath for many units in the Guard Codex going up in points.

This...

Ultramarines, Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
(W) Roboute Guilliman; Adept of the Codex

Ultramarines, Battalion
Chief Librarian Tigurius
Sergeant Telion

Scouts (x10); Rifles
Scouts (x6); Boltguns, Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Storm Bolter & Chainsword

Aggressors (x6); Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
Sternguard (x10); Special Issue Boltguns, SIB & Chainsword
Company Ancient; Bolter, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant

Inceptors (x3); Assault Bolters
Inceptors (x3); Assault Bolters
Inceptors (x3); Assault Bolters

Sororitas, Auxiliary
Celestine; Geminae Superia (x2)

Total: 2000 Points

Surpise. Becomes...

Ultramarines, Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
(W) Roboute Guilliman; Adept of the Codex

Ultramarines, Battalion
Chief Librarian Tigurius
Sergeant Telion

Scouts (x10); Rifles
Scouts (x6); Boltguns, Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Storm Bolter & Chainsword

Aggressors (x6); Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
Sternguard (x10); Special Issue Boltguns, SIB & Chainsword
Company Ancient; Storm Bolter, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant

Inceptors (x3); Assault Bolters
Inceptors (x3); Assault Bolters
Inceptors (x3); Assault Bolters

Mordian, Battalion
Company Commander
Company Commander

Infantry Squad; Plasma Gun
Infantry Squad; Plasma Gun
Infantry Squad; Plasma Gun

Special Weapons Squad; Plasma Guns (x3)

Total: 1998 Points.

Guilliman gives Guard re-roll 1s anyway, freeing the Officers to use Target Characters.

Thanks for making Adept of the Codex almost worthless GW. Looks like you've forced me into picking up that Guard Battalion after all. Also, I know I have a lot of units. I'm aware. I'll just go second and give everything I own +1 Armour for no reason using those extra CPs I just gave myself.

Tactical Restraint made Guard Battalions and Brigades better, by which I mean more necessary. So...Now the Guard plague will become worse, because there's no reason to not take Guard anymore if you're Imperium. 'Cause regardless of what you do, you're only getting 1 back per Round. Which means that your initial count must be higher to compensate.

GG.

Sorry. That's a typo. I meant...

FFS.

[LansXero]

So, pre-orders for Wake the Dead are out! and...

nobody cares! woohoo :'(

80$ was such a nice price point; things like KNF should be the norm, not an exception. Forgebane / Renegade I can understand, because Knights (and Renegade was rather good value) but starter sets should not cost almost 2 Start Collecting Boxes. Specially when they are so bland and poorly balanced.

[LeSwordfish]

Twice the cost of a start collecting box seems pretty fair to me for what is essentially two start collecting boxes. Know No Fear etc is deliberately lower priced because its push-fit models and discounted to try and get people into the game. This doesn't have the same goal, and has full models.

[LansXero]

Twice the cost of a start collecting box seems pretty fair to me for what is essentially two start collecting boxes. Know No Fear etc is deliberately lower priced because its push-fit models and discounted to try and get people into the game. This doesn't have the same goal, and has full models.

Allright you do have a point with push to fit models. I concede that these kind of 'build up your collection' sets make some sense. But well over a year after 8th's release, would it be so bad to have another 2 player easy-to-build set that is not power armor vs rotten power armor? Large initial investments arent easy for all markets, and some variety on the cheaper options would be welcome. I believe the game is strong enough on its own to hook people once they give it a try, but we dont really need more more Primaris players, specially with how behind they are at everything (except killteam if you paint them black, and even then).

Tooth and Claw was dead-on-arrival as well, but thats also because while there are a lot of old, rabid Space Wolf fans, nobody here likes Genestealer Cults. And, well, old players dont like Primaris (or their Dreadnoughts).

[Wraith]

Did you just go full Tumblr? Where you imply that the 'people' complaining about one thing, are the exact same people complaining about a different thing?

...I mean... Everyone else got that that was sarcasm, didn't they? Blackhawk certainly did, maybe you ought to ask them about it? :smalltongue:


Can't do it. You're not allowed to field more than 20 models.

I was paraphrasing. Turns out that the actual "trick" is to take ~15 Gretchin, run them forward while saving up CPs, and then whoever survives blows through a bunch of Squig Attack!s with rerolls, so you have a 75% chance of Mortal Wounding everything to death.

...Which, in reality, still isn't as good as just taking a bunch of Ork Lootas and dakka-ing everything to pieces while your Boss Nob and some friends go around capturing objectives. It's still one of those stupid/fun things that could be done, though :smalltongue:

[LeSwordfish]

But well over a year after 8th's release, would it be so bad to have another 2 player easy-to-build set that is not power armor vs rotten power armor?

You're not wrong. But that isn't at all what this is meant to be.

[Cheesegear]

:smallsigh:

...I also enjoy that <Fly> was nerfed into the ground. In that it doesn't work in the Charge phase. Which means that models in the top levels of Ruins can no longer be Charged by anything and screens become impenetrable walls for Characters. Which, if you aren't already playing ITC rules (which I don't think you should be), is just another reason to fill your board with only Ruins and similar multi-level Terrain pieces if you're a gunline.

When all's that really needed to be done was make it so that when models have to set up 9" away, models are considered to have infinite height and infinite depth. Or...You know...Just stop having Terrain pieces that are tall enough to block LoS to Fliers. I feel like 'measuring 9" away base-to-base, then making a 0" Charge because ignoring vertical distance' was a huge breach of the rules, and I have seen a few people try it. But then it was argued for a while in my meta, and we settled on 9" meaning 9" on the x-axis only. Because not doing that was unfair.

Instead of doing something sensible...They just made it so that models with <Fly> were just as bad at making Charges against models in the top levels of Terrain as everyone else. Thus, making models in the top levels of Terrain, untouchable. Thanks GW.

[Renegade Paladin]

<Fly> was never supposed to ignore intervening units in the Charge phase. The rules that let them do that are described in the Movement phase section and not repeated elsewhere.

[Cheesegear]

The rules that let them do that are described in the Movement phase section and not repeated elsewhere.

Movement Phase, Moving
If the Datasheet for a model says it can <Fly>, it can move across models and terrain as if they were not there.

Charge Phase, Make Charge Move
Each model in the Charging unit can move...

'Charging' is very clearly defined as a 'move' action in the Rulebook. That's where that comes from. Whether it was intended that way or not...Fact is, the wording wasn't changed until now, because there are two problem units in the game ruining for everyone. And instead of just increasing the points cost on Blood Angel and Custodes' Captains, they instead decided to nerf everything and make Melee **** again. :smallsigh:

[Forum Explorer]

Strongly disagree.

Every CP counts, now. And since you can only regen 1 CP back per Round, it means that you need to start the game, with more of them.
Guard Battalions and Brigades will now explode out of control. I'm painting mine as we speak. If I can't Adept of the Codex + Veritas Vitae anymore, then I'll take the flat +5 at the start of the game, thanks. Except now I'm replacing Veritas Vitae with Angel's Wing, which everyone tells me is better anyway.

Grand Strategist + Kurov's Aquila got nerfed? Cool. So did Kabal of the Black Heart. So did Ultramarines and Dark Angels. So did Necrons. But you know what? Way to fail. Guard are still going to start the game with at least 15 CPs, and they're going to regen CPs at the same rate as everyone else.

Tactical Restraint doesn't fix anything.
Obviously, +6 CPs per turn probably wasn't intended.
But, the problem is that GW made a blanket nerf so the ratios stayed the same. Which means that Guard remain on top, and CP banks are still mandatory for competitive play.

I'll hold my breath for many units in the Guard Codex going up in points.

This...

Ultramarines, Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
(W) Roboute Guilliman; Adept of the Codex

Ultramarines, Battalion
Chief Librarian Tigurius
Sergeant Telion

Scouts (x10); Rifles
Scouts (x6); Boltguns, Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Storm Bolter & Chainsword

Aggressors (x6); Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
Sternguard (x10); Special Issue Boltguns, SIB & Chainsword
Company Ancient; Bolter, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant

Inceptors (x3); Assault Bolters
Inceptors (x3); Assault Bolters
Inceptors (x3); Assault Bolters

Sororitas, Auxiliary
Celestine; Geminae Superia (x2)

Total: 2000 Points

Surpise. Becomes...

Ultramarines, Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
(W) Roboute Guilliman; Adept of the Codex

Ultramarines, Battalion
Chief Librarian Tigurius
Sergeant Telion

Scouts (x10); Rifles
Scouts (x6); Boltguns, Storm Bolter & Chainsword
Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Storm Bolter & Chainsword

Aggressors (x6); Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
Sternguard (x10); Special Issue Boltguns, SIB & Chainsword
Company Ancient; Storm Bolter, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant

Inceptors (x3); Assault Bolters
Inceptors (x3); Assault Bolters
Inceptors (x3); Assault Bolters

Mordian, Battalion
Company Commander
Company Commander

Infantry Squad; Plasma Gun
Infantry Squad; Plasma Gun
Infantry Squad; Plasma Gun

Special Weapons Squad; Plasma Guns (x3)

Total: 1998 Points.

Guilliman gives Guard re-roll 1s anyway, freeing the Officers to use Target Characters.

Thanks for making Adept of the Codex almost worthless GW. Looks like you've forced me into picking up that Guard Battalion after all. Also, I know I have a lot of units. I'm aware. I'll just go second and give everything I own +1 Armour for no reason using those extra CPs I just gave myself.

Tactical Restraint made Guard Battalions and Brigades better, by which I mean more necessary. So...Now the Guard plague will become worse, because there's no reason to not take Guard anymore if you're Imperium. 'Cause regardless of what you do, you're only getting 1 back per Round. Which means that your initial count must be higher to compensate.

GG.

Sorry. That's a typo. I meant...

FFS.

Yeah, because most competitive Imperium teams already didn't run a Guard Brigade or Battalion. Oh wait, it's the opposite, because you still got a ton of CP and the most efficient CP farm in the game. :smallsigh:

I do agree with you, Guard Battalions and Brigades are going to be taken constantly. But since they already were, I don't think we're really going to see a difference in any tournament lists, or even most metas. Because Guard barely got nerfed at all, and they are still incredible. What I will see is some new Warlord traits though. Guard did get weaker, but it might just be compensated for by taking even more Guard. Depends if people drop the Knight Castellan or not.

Really, they should just allow anyone to ally with Guard at this point. Except Aldari. But Orks and Necrons could be using slave soliders, Tau have their defectors, Chaos have their Traitors, and Tyranids already have Genestealer infested troops. Then everyone can take dirt cheap Guard Battalions to buff their armies. :smallyuk:


:smallsigh:

...I also enjoy that <Fly> was nerfed into the ground. In that it doesn't work in the Charge phase. Which means that models in the top levels of Ruins can no longer be Charged by anything and screens become impenetrable walls for Characters. Which, if you aren't already playing ITC rules (which I don't think you should be), is just another reason to fill your board with only Ruins and similar multi-level Terrain pieces if you're a gunline.

When all's that really needed to be done was make it so that when models have to set up 9" away, models are considered to have infinite height and infinite depth. Or...You know...Just stop having Terrain pieces that are tall enough to block LoS to Fliers. I feel like 'measuring 9" away base-to-base, then making a 0" Charge because ignoring vertical distance' was a huge breach of the rules, and I have seen a few people try it. But then it was argued for a while in my meta, and we settled on 9" meaning 9" on the x-axis only. Because not doing that was unfair.

Instead of doing something sensible...They just made it so that models with <Fly> were just as bad at making Charges against models in the top levels of Terrain as everyone else. Thus, making models in the top levels of Terrain, untouchable. Thanks GW.

How high are your terrain pieces anyways?

[LeSwordfish]

Those new terrain pieces are cool but quite possibly straight-up Too High.

[Cheesegear]

I do agree with you, Guard Battalions and Brigades are going to be taken constantly. But since they already were, I don't think we're really going to see a difference in any tournament lists, or even most metas.

I've already said that I'm being forced into taking a Guard Battalion. I wasn't before. Now I am. So you can put me down for finally changing my tournament list.


Guard did get weaker, but it might just be compensated for by taking even more Guard.

...
I'll say it again.
Guard didn't get nerfed. Everyone got nerfed by the same amount. The armies on top remain on top, because what made them powerful to begin with, wasn't changed. GW removed a symptom. Not the root cause of the issue. That is...Guard are too cheap. But then so are Cultists.

Kurov's Aquila still exists. But now Guard take Old Grudges, instead. It's not list anyone else is regenerating CPs faster, right?


Depends if people drop the Knight Castellan or not.

Knight Castellans will be taken less. But I think it's naive to think that they'll be gone from the meta entirely. Volcano Lances are too valuable. And even one Oathbreaker Missile that connects to a target, is still more than zero.

But it also means that Stratagems that cost 1 CP are now more valuable. Which means people more likely moving to some of the cheaper Knights. Like a Terryn Knight Gallant making a Turn 1 Charge. Or simply a Knight Crusader with an Avenger Gatling Cannon. Less points spent on Knights, only means more points spent on other things. But unless Guard change in points costs, then having the <Imperium> Keyword makes them the strongest Faction in the game. Not on their own, of course. But, then again, the game isn't played that way.

Especially given that <Fly> has been hard nerfed, Knights can no longer be Charged.
Especially when Renegade Knights can Summon their own screens. :smallannoyed:

Only after GW fixes 'Cheaper = Better', will Guard go away.

[Wardog]

Does anyone have any thoughts on how the various Leman Russ turret weapons could be rebalanced?


My understanding on the current situation is:
Battle Cannon: excellent general-purpose weapon
Executioner plasma cannon: excellent general-purpose weapon
Punisher: excellent anti-horde weapon

Demolisher Cannon: good in some situations, but too expensive
Eradicator nova cannon: too specialized and expensive to be worth taking usually.
Exterminator auto-cannon: worthless (worse than a battle-cannon against anything except hordes, where you should be using a punisher anyway).
Vanquisher: worthless (anti-tank weapon that is worse at anti-tank than the battle cannon)


The general problem appears to be that the specialised weapons are either too specialised and too expensive to be worth using much, or straight up worse at their job than the generalist weapons. So is this a case of the specialist weapons needing buffs, or the generalist weapons needing nerfs? Or both?

(For example, I don't use autocannons much, but I've been told they are pretty good - and the Exterminator effectively gives you 4 autocannons for less than the price of two. So this suggests to me that the Executioner is actually OK, and the real problem is that the battle cannon is either too cheap or too powerful).

What do you think - am I right in this assessment, or talking out of ignorance? And either way, what do you think would be the best actual changes to make?

[Forum Explorer]

I've already said that I'm being forced into taking a Guard Battalion. I wasn't before. Now I am. So you can put me down for finally changing my tournament list.



...
I'll say it again.
Guard didn't get nerfed. Everyone got nerfed by the same amount. The armies on top remain on top, because what made them powerful to begin with, wasn't changed. GW removed a symptom. Not the root cause of the issue. That is...Guard are too cheap. But then so are Cultists.

Kurov's Aquila still exists. But now Guard take Old Grudges, instead. It's not list anyone else is regenerating CPs faster, right?



Knight Castellans will be taken less. But I think it's naive to think that they'll be gone from the meta entirely. Volcano Lances are too valuable. And even one Oathbreaker Missile that connects to a target, is still more than zero.

But it also means that Stratagems that cost 1 CP are now more valuable. Which means people more likely moving to some of the cheaper Knights. Like a Terryn Knight Gallant making a Turn 1 Charge. Or simply a Knight Crusader with an Avenger Gatling Cannon. Less points spent on Knights, only means more points spent on other things. But unless Guard change in points costs, then having the <Imperium> Keyword makes them the strongest Faction in the game. Not on their own, of course. But, then again, the game isn't played that way.

Especially given that <Fly> has been hard nerfed, Knights can no longer be Charged.
Especially when Renegade Knights can Summon their own screens. :smallannoyed:

Only after GW fixes 'Cheaper = Better', will Guard go away.

You're changing it sure, but what you are changing it to was always better in the first place and a really common pick. And really, if losing the CP regen is so devastating that you need more then 10 CP then it really points out how badly that needed a nerf because lots of armies didn't really have a good version of CP regen.

I'm mostly agreeing with you. Except for the part where you say everyone got weaker, because hey some factions don't have command point regen. Really, this is a nerf that effects casual metas a lot more then competitive ones, where people will take things like White Scars or even mono-Guard lists. Because before, I've literally seen people decide to not use command points in order to prevent Guard from stealing them, that's how oppressive their regeneration was. And in competitive metas, Tyanid and Ork players are celebrating because they never had any CP regen at all.

You mean Knights can no longer be charged by Blood Angels. And no, I don't think they'll be gone entirely, but I really can't predict how much they'll change.


Does anyone have any thoughts on how the various Leman Russ turret weapons could be rebalanced?


My understanding on the current situation is:
Battle Cannon: excellent general-purpose weapon
Executioner plasma cannon: excellent general-purpose weapon
Punisher: excellent anti-horde weapon

Demolisher Cannon: good in some situations, but too expensive
Eradicator nova cannon: too specialized and expensive to be worth taking usually.
Exterminator auto-cannon: worthless (worse than a battle-cannon against anything except hordes, where you should be using a punisher anyway).
Vanquisher: worthless (anti-tank weapon that is worse at anti-tank than the battle cannon)


The general problem appears to be that the specialised weapons are either too specialised and too expensive to be worth using much, or straight up worse at their job than the generalist weapons. So is this a case of the specialist weapons needing buffs, or the generalist weapons needing nerfs? Or both?

(For example, I don't use autocannons much, but I've been told they are pretty good - and the Exterminator effectively gives you 4 autocannons for less than the price of two. So this suggests to me that the Executioner is actually OK, and the real problem is that the battle cannon is either too cheap or too powerful).

What do you think - am I right in this assessment, or talking out of ignorance? And either way, what do you think would be the best actual changes to make?

Don't let them double shoot. Or did you mean balanced with each other? Because that's hard. When you have so many options, some are just going to be weaker then others.

[Renegade Paladin]

Does anyone have any thoughts on how the various Leman Russ turret weapons could be rebalanced?


My understanding on the current situation is:
Battle Cannon: excellent general-purpose weapon
Executioner plasma cannon: excellent general-purpose weapon
Punisher: excellent anti-horde weapon

Demolisher Cannon: good in some situations, but too expensive
Eradicator nova cannon: too specialized and expensive to be worth taking usually.
Exterminator auto-cannon: worthless (worse than a battle-cannon against anything except hordes, where you should be using a punisher anyway).
Vanquisher: worthless (anti-tank weapon that is worse at anti-tank than the battle cannon)


The general problem appears to be that the specialised weapons are either too specialised and too expensive to be worth using much, or straight up worse at their job than the generalist weapons. So is this a case of the specialist weapons needing buffs, or the generalist weapons needing nerfs? Or both?

(For example, I don't use autocannons much, but I've been told they are pretty good - and the Exterminator effectively gives you 4 autocannons for less than the price of two. So this suggests to me that the Executioner is actually OK, and the real problem is that the battle cannon is either too cheap or too powerful).

What do you think - am I right in this assessment, or talking out of ignorance? And either way, what do you think would be the best actual changes to make?
The Exterminator autocannon should be Heavy 8. In previous editions it was Heavy 4, Twin-Linked. Literally every other formerly twin-linked weapon in the game had its shots doubled, and the Exterminator was left out in the cold.

The Demolisher cannon just needs to be cheaper in points.

The Eradicator's niche is kind of worthless because of how Cover works now; another point of AP does the same thing. The reason the tank exists is obsolete in this ruleset.

And the Vanquisher... It used to be able to one shot tanks. That was and still is its job in the fluff. Now it can't even come close. Give it +1 to wound rolls and a scaling damage mechanic like the laser destroyer has when shooting at Vehicles and it might be okay.

[Wraith]

Since I was speaking of Kill Team a little while ago, the reason is that I've finally managed to play the damn thing. It went almost exactly as I thought it would, though the nerve/bottle checks are still taking some time to sink in.

Since Kill Team hates the idea of variety or of people having fun, I was unable to put together a Black Templars team to my own satisfaction - I was going to do it with Death Watch, using the Xenophase sword as a Black Blade and Power Swords as Chainswords, but as I had gotten 3/4ths of the way through and decided that it just wasn't right. Maybe I can do it better with a Chaos Marine team, but I'll have to think more about if I'm willing to go down that dark route.

Instead, I took my Grey Knights, which coincidentally meant that I ran a 100% painted army for the first time in... 2 years? Something like that. :smalltongue:

Grey Knight Justicar (Leader)
- 2x Nemesis Force Falchions
- Storm Boltor; Frag, Krak and Psy-Grenades

Grey Knight (Specialist: Comms)
- Nemesis Force Halberd; Storm Boltor; Frag, Krak & Psy-Grenades
Grey Knight
- Nemesis Force Halberd; Storm Boltor; Frag, Krak & Psy-Grenades

Grey Knight Gunner (Specialist: Heavy)
- Psilencer; Frag, Krak & Psy-Grenades
Grey Knight Gunner (Specialist: Heavy)
- Psilencer; Frag, Krak & Psy-Grenades

My opponent played two different Heretic Marines lists, the first one more or less as follows:

Aspiring Champion (Leader)
- Plasma Pistol & Power Fist; Mark of Khorne

Chaos Space Marine Gunner
- Heavy Boltor
Chaos Space Marine Gunner
- Plasma Gun

Chaos Space Marine
- Icon of Wrath; Chainsword & Bolt Pistol; Mark of Khorne
Chaos Space Marine
- Chainsword & Bolt Pistol; Mark of Khorne
Chaos Space Marine
- Chainsword & Bolt Pistol; Mark of Khorne
Chaos Space Marine
- Chainsword & Bolt Pistol; Mark of Khorne

The answer is yes, but read on....

We setup for Covert War and rolled the Infiltrate objective - that seemed to suit me, as 4 of the objectives were pretty close to my team, and I was forcing the Chaos Marines to slog across the board while I shot them down.

And it worked really well because Psilencers are disgusting, that Psychic Bolt from any of your warband effectively guarantees that it's going to go off every turn, and because it can target an enemy in close combat before they get to fight then your opponent really has to Charge your entire warband at once or get brutalised.
As it stood, Psychic Bolt claimed 2 victims in 3 turns, and when the Icon of Wrath misfired and 3 out of 4 assaults failed, the 'lucky' guy who made it into melee immediately ran straight into a 3rd. That left the Heretics with 3 models out in the open about to get shot to pieces, and he offered a concession on the spot.

It was especially galling for my opponent when we checked the rules later in the post-game debrief. Not only had I misread a column in the rulebook - mistaking Psilencers for Psycannons and accidentally using them as Heavy 4 instead of 6 - but my opponent had miscounted his warband and actually should have had only 6 models instead of 7. He was destroyed even though I was using 2/3rds firepower and he had a ~20% points advantage.

It also turns out that Heretic Heavy Boltors are awful, because they're hugely over-costed at 3 points. Heavy Boltors in general seem to have been balanced so that Astartes can take ~3 of them, Deathwatch can take ~4 (which are objectively better) for cheaper, and Grey Knights can take Psilencers which just blow them out of the water for the same price. Taking just one of them kind of sucks, but taking it for the same price as a Psilencer is just so very, very bad.

Readdressing his list (Dropping the Heavy Boltor Guy, dropping the Icon of Wrath and some other wargear, and making up the difference with 3 Cultists) made a huge difference to the game. We replayed the same mission with different terrain, and I had lost as soon as I placed my objectives; wanting my opponent to come close worked once, but this time he wasn't playing as "Khorne" and instead just stayed in cover, where I had put the objectives without thinking.
Because you can claim an objective without needing Line Of Sight, he just sat a Marine and a Cultist behind a wall, completely out of my LoS, and waited for the game to end - by the time I had realised what was happening, there was no time for me to break out or clear more than 1 of the 3 objectives that he had capped. When his Speciaist Charge'd my Leader and threw down Veteran of the Long War/Fury of Khorne/Zealot all at once, I didn't even bother rolling saves and just ended the game there.

So, we both learned that the basic errata doesn't cover anything like as much as it ought to, and that as a melee-orientated faction against a Shooting one you basically win by hiding and refusing to engage the opponent as much as possible. Not very "Khornate" if you ask me, but as we've said before - Kill Team is NOT a game for thematic lists. :smallconfused:

What we have also decided, is that there needs to be a list of "basic equipment" that is full of cheap, one-shot items that any Faction can take - medical kits to clear a flesh wound, one-use Deny The Witch items for anyone who isn't Thousand Sons, Grey Knights or Tyranids. The sort of opportunistic stuff that Necromunda has in abundance, so as to fill in niches and give you something to spend those last odd 1 or 2 points on so that not every warband looks nearly the same. It would really give the game some variety and a new layer of strategy to factor into list building, and *maybe* offer a way to stop some warbands from being completely overrun by another who has something they can't deal with.

[Cheesegear]

You're changing it sure, but what you are changing it to was always better in the first place and a really common pick.

I get it. Because anyone who was choosing not to run a Guard Battalion before now, is an idiot? And it's our fault for not doing it sooner?
I see what you're saying. It's our fault.

Happened yesterday, too. A guy (I forget what he was playing) exclaimed "Wow. CPs disappear so fast now!" and then I was like; Yep. Now you just need more to begin with.
He had the same reaction that I did.
Let out a massive sigh, and said "I have to buy Guard now, don't I?"
Yes. Yes you do. I had that same gut-punch feeling, too. I just didn't need to 'play-test it first'.

**** whatever you were playing before. The rules were changed so that +5 CPs for <200 Points is now mandatory.
No. I mean. It's not a choice anymore.
You don't get to choose not to take it.

Less choices = More bad.


I'm mostly agreeing with you. Except for the part where you say everyone got weaker, because hey some factions don't have command point regen.

...And now none of them have CP regen, even via Allies. Which is why all Imperium armies were strong, and all Aeldari armies were strong.
GW has now said; **** you. Take Guard. **** you. Take Cultists. **** you. Kabal of the Black Heart only.
From now on.


Really, this is a nerf that effects casual metas a lot more then competitive ones

Yes. It does. That's the point.
I heard people say "Don't worry about the new Errata, because if you don't play competitively, it wont affect you."

Yes it will. As above, it already ruined one of my friends in his very first casual game, and he realised the implications immediately. Take a Guard Battalion. Or, make sure your models don't rely on Stratagems to be any good...Oh wait. That's everything. Looks like you're taking Guard...

...And you're a scrub because why weren't you taking Guard before now? :smallconfused:


Because before, I've literally seen people decide to not use command points in order to prevent Guard from stealing them, that's how oppressive their regeneration was.

...That's dumb.
The only time you should been afraid of using Stratagems is against Drukhari, and anyone running a Callidus Assassin... Except now even more so.


You mean Knights can no longer be charged by Blood Angels.

By models with <Fly>. Which includes...Lots of things that were used to target out Knights, because Knights don't get their Invulnerable in the Melee phase.
Shining Spears, Hive Tyrants with Wings, Shield-Captains, Daemon Princes with Wings, etc.

Whatever your Faction was using to kill Knights in the Melee phase - because that's how you do it without a Castellan of your own - is now irrelevant.


And no, I don't think they'll be gone entirely, but I really can't predict how much they'll change.

I can. Rotate Ion Shields is 1 CP for non-Dominus Knights. Knight Crusaders in every list, now. They can't be Charged so they'll just sit in the back forever and shoot.
You know what'll fix that? Knight Castellans for the counter.
Knight Castellans will fix opposing Knight Castellans.

Oh damn. Looks like they're staying in the meta. The only difference now is more Crusaders and Gallants, instead.
Either way. Knights are still mandatory.
It's the Blood Angels who will go away.
What's clear though, is that solo Knights that don't generate CPs are pretty much dead in the water. So...The Blood Angels will be replaced by Armigers? ...Sounds about right.
Or, you know...
Guard Brigade / Guard Battalion / Knight ...Is more likely.

And just before the Ork Codex comes out, I'm going to ask all you Ork players out there...
Have you bought your x30 Gretchin yet? Before the Codex is even out, it's pretty much mandatory.

[Blackhawk748]

And just before the Ork Codex comes out, I'm going to ask all you Ork players out there...
Have you bought your x30 Gretchin yet? Before the Codex is even out, it's pretty much mandatory.

No, and it disgusts me that i would have to in order to get enough friggin CPs for us to do our job

[9mm]

**** whatever you were playing before. The rules were changed so that +5 CPs for <200 Points is now mandatory.
No. I mean. It's not a choice anymore.
You don't get to choose not to take it.

Less choices = More bad.


no you don't need to take the brave 32. you just want too. I've never had more than 9 cp from the start of 8th (and as a reminder, I play guard), the idea you absolutely need 13+ cp is, to be blunt, utter horse ****.

Strategems were supposed to have cost, staking regen to make them free breaks the game. It is truly that simple.

[Blackhawk748]

no you don't need to take the brave 32. you just want too. I've never had more than 9 cp from the start of 8th (and as a reminder, I play guard), the idea you absolutely need 13+ cp is, to be blunt, utter horse ****.

Strategems were supposed to have cost, staking regen to make them free breaks the game. It is truly that simple.

The problem is, is that some armies can pretty easily get +13 so the ned result is the same as if you had kept hte Regen; they use their Stratagems more. Theres a reason why my solo Ad Mech only got to use like 5 Stratagems. I couldnt make mroe than 2 Battalions with what I field. Guard can Field Brigades without blinking and so they get to use all of their toys.

[Cheesegear]

the idea you absolutely need 13+ cp is, to be blunt, utter horse ****.

...Only if you're tied to units that don't use Stratagems. If your army is tied to Stratagems - as more and more armies are fast becoming - then you need more CPs.
If only for more re-rolls.
Command Re-roll wins games all on its own. Your opponent having 5 extra re-rolls than you do is already a huge advantage.

The issue with Guard, is that they have no Stratagems worth using. So solo-Guard don't need Command Points, because what are they going to use them for? But, as I mentioned earlier, the game isn't played that way.


Strategems were supposed to have cost, staking regen to make them free breaks the game. It is truly that simple.

Remember when Battalions were 3 CPs?

GW gave us more Command Points because the Community said they wanted more Stratagems.
Now, GW is taking away Command Points because we were using too many Stratagems.

Without regenerating CPs, we just go back to taking as many as possible, and abusing the Stratagems that cost 1 CP (especially Command Re-roll). Exactly like the 'First Four' Codecies did right at the start of 8th Ed.

[9mm]

Remember when Battalions were 3 CPs?

GW gave us more Command Points because the Community said they wanted more Stratagems.
Now, GW is taking away Command Points because we were using too many Stratagems.


these are not mutually exclusive goals. 3 cp per battalions weren't enough, being able to freely spend 10 cp a turn and not notice was clearly too many.


The issue with Guard, is that they have no Stratagems worth using. So solo-Guard don't need Command Points, because what are they going to use them for?
aerial spotter, defensive gunners, crush them (if you use superheavies), jury rigging, insane bravery, Ambush, Take cover, grenadiers, consolidate squads, and of course; Command re-roll are by far the most popular.

[Cheesegear]

aerial spotter, defensive gunners, crush them (if you use superheavies), insane bravery, Ambush, Take cover, grenadiers, consolidate squads, and of course; Command re-roll are by far the most popular.

Then, in the conext of non-solo Guard we arrive at...

Aerial Spotter; Wyverns aren't Mortars for less points. Also it's 2 CPs, and therefore bad now.
Defensive Gunners; Why? Anything behind a screen (because you have Guard) can't be Charged anymore, and the Hellhounds you do have, auto-hit.
Crush Them; Knights are better in Melee and have an Invulnerable save against Shooting.
Insane Bravery; They're Guardsmen. They're all dead.
Ambush; Reserves are hard nerfed. And Armiger Warglaives are better at it.
Take Cover!; They're Guardsmen. They're all dead.
Consolidate Squads; I'd rather spend the CP on a re-roll...Or anything else.

Guard generate CPs that they have no interest in using themselves. That's why they slot in so well with everything else.

Either
a) Make Guard more expensive.
b) Give them Stratagems actually worth using so they want to use their own CPs.

Since b) essentially requires a Codex re-write, we'll go with a), which wont happen until CH'18 - if it happens at all. But, then you'll have people when a) happens, saying "But I don't use my Guard that way." ...And the response is simply...Tough. Craftworlders weren't all running Ynnari Dark Reapers. But Dark Reapers went up all the same.

That's why the solution, really, to the problem was to force Factions to generate their own Command Points. Guard would have their Command Points to use on their stuff, other Factions would have their CPs to use on their stuff. Unfortunately, GW decided not to go that route, and kept CP farms alive (probably for model sales purposes). It's just that CPs are different now, and whatever the cheapest version of +5 CPs is, is the best one. Cultist/Gretchin/Neophyte/Termagant Battalions all exist for that very reason.

If Stratagems are worth using, then it's worth jamming an extra Battalion into your list. Especially if the Battalion you make, has no use for their own CPs.

[9mm]

That's why the solution, really, to the problem was to force Factions to generate their own Command Points. Guard would have their Command Points to use on their stuff, other Factions would have their CPs to use on their stuff.

*middle of turn 3*
"so I'll spend 2 cp on... wait what dice did I say was my space marine cp again?"

and scene.

[Cheesegear]

*middle of turn 3*
"so I'll spend 2 cp on... wait what dice did I say was my space marine cp again?"

I know why it wasn't implemented. Because people are dumb.
I also know that professional MtG players keep track of their life totals using pencil and paper and anyone who uses the spin-down dice are 100% cheating all of the time.
And if there's no regenerating CPs anymore, they'll all count down.
So it's not like it would even be hard to do.
...Unless you're a muppet.

Posted from phone.

[Blackhawk748]

*middle of turn 3*
"so I'll spend 2 cp on... wait what dice did I say was my space marine cp again?"

and scene.

Oh come on. If you can't keep track of, at max, 3 different pools of resources you are playing the wrong game.

[Brookshw]

Cultist/Gretchin/Neophyte/Termagant Battalions all exist for that very reason.


Sure, of course with the difference in HQ costs they aren't nearly as effective or practical.

[Forum Explorer]

I get it. Because anyone who was choosing not to run a Guard Battalion before now, is an idiot? And it's our fault for not doing it sooner?
I see what you're saying. It's our fault.

Happened yesterday, too. A guy (I forget what he was playing) exclaimed "Wow. CPs disappear so fast now!" and then I was like; Yep. Now you just need more to begin with.
He had the same reaction that I did.
Let out a massive sigh, and said "I have to buy Guard now, don't I?"
Yes. Yes you do. I had that same gut-punch feeling, too. I just didn't need to 'play-test it first'.

**** whatever you were playing before. The rules were changed so that +5 CPs for <200 Points is now mandatory.
No. I mean. It's not a choice anymore.
You don't get to choose not to take it.

Less choices = More bad.



...And now none of them have CP regen, even via Allies. Which is why all Imperium armies were strong, and all Aeldari armies were strong.
GW has now said; **** you. Take Guard. **** you. Take Cultists. **** you. Kabal of the Black Heart only.
From now on.



Yes. It does. That's the point.
I heard people say "Don't worry about the new Errata, because if you don't play competitively, it wont affect you."

Yes it will. As above, it already ruined one of my friends in his very first casual game, and he realised the implications immediately. Take a Guard Battalion. Or, make sure your models don't rely on Stratagems to be any good...Oh wait. That's everything. Looks like you're taking Guard...

...And you're a scrub because why weren't you taking Guard before now? :smallconfused:



...That's dumb.
The only time you should been afraid of using Stratagems is against Drukhari, and anyone running a Callidus Assassin... Except now even more so.



By models with <Fly>. Which includes...Lots of things that were used to target out Knights, because Knights don't get their Invulnerable in the Melee phase.
Shining Spears, Hive Tyrants with Wings, Shield-Captains, Daemon Princes with Wings, etc.

Whatever your Faction was using to kill Knights in the Melee phase - because that's how you do it without a Castellan of your own - is now irrelevant.



I can. Rotate Ion Shields is 1 CP for non-Dominus Knights. Knight Crusaders in every list, now. They can't be Charged so they'll just sit in the back forever and shoot.
You know what'll fix that? Knight Castellans for the counter.
Knight Castellans will fix opposing Knight Castellans.

Oh damn. Looks like they're staying in the meta. The only difference now is more Crusaders and Gallants, instead.
Either way. Knights are still mandatory.
It's the Blood Angels who will go away.
What's clear though, is that solo Knights that don't generate CPs are pretty much dead in the water. So...The Blood Angels will be replaced by Armigers? ...Sounds about right.
Or, you know...
Guard Brigade / Guard Battalion / Knight ...Is more likely.

And just before the Ork Codex comes out, I'm going to ask all you Ork players out there...
Have you bought your x30 Gretchin yet? Before the Codex is even out, it's pretty much mandatory.

No, I'm not saying that. Stop taking so much offense to it. :smallsigh:

I'm saying that it was already really bloody common. So from the perspective of someone who plays mostly Xenos...nothing changed. Either your meta is competitive enough that people were already taking Brave 32, or some equivalent of, or it isn't competitive and the farming is just shut down without any other major effect. And yeah, at the top competitive level, Brave 32, or Guard Brigades were pretty much in every successful Imperium army.

Your meta is very competitive, and if going from 12-13 CP (effectively with the 5+ regen) to 10 CP is so crippling to you that you have no choice then to take the Brave 32, then yeah that sucks. (Though, if you still have Guilliman as your Warlord then you likely will be at 11-12 CP instead, so you aren't even losing that many) But you are in the minority. For the people who were already taking the Brave 32, they just got nerfed. For people who were running Guard Brigades or even mono-Guard, they got nerfed as well. For people who never had the option to farm CP, their opponents all just got weaker so they are more viable.

But you do still have a choice. Just like I had a choice when I decided to run triple Outriders. So I only had 6 CP, and because I was mono-Craftworld, I didn't have effective CP regen anyways. And hey, I had a good game despite that because we've fostered a meta where you can take weak options and not just get a crushing loss. If, again, your meta is not like this, well that's sucks, and I feel bad for you, but there's nothing I can do about that.


Except they didn't say that, or rather, they were already saying that. And that's my point. From a purely competitive standard, Nothing Changed. From a casual standard, Guard and other sources of farming go weaker, which is good because it actually creates more options. From your particular prespective you got shafted because you apparently weren't quite competitive enough that you were already doing it. Though, if none of you did buy Guard/add in Brave 32, then your meta would just become less competitive. And hey, maybe that's what you should aim for.


EDIT: Shining Spears are actually a perfect example of a unit that still charges Knights. Because the way I see it, there are 3 scenarios:

1. The screening unit is about 4-5 inches away from the Knight. Fly still works in the Movement phase, so you just fly over them like normal.

2. The screening unit is hugging the Knight. Shining Spears have really good guns to clear away units like Guardsmen, which incidentally, aren't great against Knights. So they shoot the screen out of the way and then charge like normal.

3. There is enough screen in the way that the is a solid blob of infantry a good 6 inches in front of the Knight. In which case you couldn't charge the Knight even before the changes, so nothing changed. (and yes, I've played against number 3. It's not uncommon in mono-Guard armies to screen your tanks in such a manner.)

Other units, well lets run through your examples. Slam captains don't have guns, so they're hooped. Daemon Princes have guns, but it's not enough to clear a screen, but they are also more mobile so they might still pull off Scenario 1. Hive Tyrants certainly have the infantry clear if they want it, so they can likely be in the same boat as Shining Spears.

Of course, if you have enough anti horde shooting to clear the screen in the first place then it's not a problem. Unless you can think of a reason why what I'm saying wouldn't be true.


The problem is, is that some armies can pretty easily get +13 so the ned result is the same as if you had kept hte Regen; they use their Stratagems more. Theres a reason why my solo Ad Mech only got to use like 5 Stratagems. I couldnt make mroe than 2 Battalions with what I field. Guard can Field Brigades without blinking and so they get to use all of their toys.

Really, solo-Ad Mech weren't effected because now you have 13 CP just like you did before the nerf (assuming double Battalion). Guard went from having 31 CP to 20 (assuming Brigade+Battalion vs double Battalion). Which is still a ridiculous amount of CP to be sure. And really, if they wanted to increase CP without giving Guard a massive advantage, they should've increased the base amount of CP that everyone starts with not the amount given for Battalions and Brigades.

But Guard and people allying in Guard lost a significant amount of CP. They still have a bonkers amount but its less.

[Cheesegear]

No, I'm not saying that. Stop taking so much offense to it. :smallsigh:

You were saying that more Guard in the meta isn't a problem, because they were already the top-tier army to begin with.
However, there are people (including myself) who don't want to take Guard. Even if it's the best thing around. Because for what it's worth, someone's army build and/or budget just doesn't have a place for extra Guardsmen that are essentially free Kill Points for not that much benefit.

Space Marines; Adept of the Codex (per CP, Refund)
AdMech; Monitor Malevolus (per opponents' Stratagems)
Blood Angels; Veritas Vitae (Relic, per Stratagem)
Dark Angels; Brilliant Strategist (per Stratagem)
Deathwatch; Lord of Hidden Knowledge (per Stratagem)

Now. As you can see, the Grand Strategist Warlord Trait can be replicated by a half-dozen <Imperium> Codecies, and Kurov's Aquila is very, very easily and gladly replaced by the Veritas. You'll notice that none of the above armies are bottom tier. If you're a 'casual' and you wanted to play one of the above armies, fine. So, most casual Imperium lists should have ended up looking like...

1. <Imperium Faction> Battalion. Regenerating CP Warlord Trait.
2. Blood Angels Battalion. Armoury of Baal for -1 CP to get Veritas.
3. Take another -1 to get an Auxiliary like Celestine or an Assassin. Because most Casuals aren't going to fork out for a small Knight, let alone the big Knight.

This was the 'standard' IMO <Imperium> list. Blood Angels actually do things. Which actually makes them way more interesting to play than Guardsmen. Even if they are more expensive. With two sources of 'unlimited' CP regeneration, it was very easy to take the -2 CPs before the game even started, because you knew that you'd get them back over the course of the game very easily. This is the standard build that I recommended to everyone. Double Battalions and change. I'm yet to meet anyone with rapid hatred of Blood Angels. However, if you told Imperial players that Space Wolves were mandatory for competitive play, there might be a few riots.

The Blood Angel Battalion only costs ~600 Points. An Assassin costs ~100. Leaves you ~1300 Points to play with in your chosen Faction. Most people that I recommend this to, are totally fine with it. Part of that, is because Blood Angels are good and at the very least have some interesting fluff when you get right down to it.

Now? All of the Warlord Traits barely work as written, and Adept of the Codex is so hot garbage it removes Ultramarines from the meta because Ultramarines had more CPs than they would ever know what do with, which actually holds them in the meta because CPs win games...Even if you don't spend them on anything except re-rolls (though I'll see what Reece has to say about it, if he says anything, since he's a way better Ultramarines player than I will ever be).

Nobody can afford to spend CPs on extra Relics anymore. So there goes Veritas...Along with several other Relics worth having that GW just removed from the meta.
GW also effectively removed every Stratagem that costs more than 1 CP from the game.

However, you seem to have glossed over an important fact; This 'competitive' change severely impacts the casual community, as well.

Grey Knights was a viable Codex before April. Sure, it wasn't winning tournaments. But in casual crowd it was really good. Everything had Storm Bolters and was in Rapid Fire range on Turn 1. Not game-breaking. But certainly very good. Suddenly, April happened, and Grey Knights went to the dumpster fire with T'au. Grey Knights weren't winning tournaments. Why'd they get punished? Don't even get me started on how 'The Rule of Three' suddenly ****ed over a whole bunch of armies that it probably wasn't supposed to.

Now go to <Stygies VIII>. Pretty viable if you ask me. Not tournament winning, for sure. But still decent enough if you want to have a game with your friends and you have a neat trick up your sleeve that quite handily evens the playing field... Gone. Why? Because <Alpha Legion>, and, to a lesser extent, <Raven Guard> ruined it for everyone. But <Stygies VIII> was certainly not the problem.

This is one of those things.
As an opponent; If no-one around you plays Grey Knights or AdMech, you wont even realise that anything's changed. Nobody plays them anyway, right?

As a player; 'No regenerating CPs' throws about a half-dozen Imperial Codecies onto the fire heap. Additionally, Custodes has gone to being practically unplayable. No regenerating CPs is a broad, sweeping Change that effects every army with Troops that cost over 10 points per model...And Factions with Troops over 10 points per model are already struggling.

Community; Please nerf hordes.
GW; Only makes hordes viable.


Though, if you still have Guilliman as your Warlord then you likely will be at 11-12 CP instead, so you aren't even losing that many

I mentioned that Adept of the Codex was the best CP farming ability, because it worked on per CP spent. Not per Stratagem used. So even though Ultramarines' inital CP is lower, combined with Veritas Vitae, they had the best CP regeneration in the game. The problem being that it only costed more than Guard doing the same thing. But, I was making it work. Because Above <Imperium> Battalion / Blood Angels Battalion / Auxiliary was a viable build. Almost regardless of what you put in that first slot.

So...To points. Guilliman gives +3 CPs for 400 Points, and his Warlord Trait doesn't even work anymore.

Here's the joke. I could run two Guard Battalions for roughly the same points cost as Guilliman, for +10. **** me. Guilliman-as-Warlord is hot garbage now. You're way better off running Storm of Fire and ignoring Guilliman's +3 CPs because they don't really do anything anymore...In fact I'll get on that right now. Guilliman's Auras are still fantastic to have. But why would you ever want to make the God-damned Proxy Emperor your Warlord? ...That's like...The whole point. He's the proxy Emperor! Why would you not want him as your Warlord?

I'm better off dropping Guilliman, running a standard Storm of Fire Captain, and use 3 CPs to make him a Chapter Master with two Guard Battalions behind him for +7. :smallsigh:
...Or play Dark Angels and run Azrael for +1 CP.


But you are in the minority. For the people who were already taking the Brave 32, they just got nerfed.

For people who were running them, they got nerfed.
For people who weren't running them, they just got buffed. This is the problem. Guard just became an auto-include for all Imperium armies. Every single one. Was that intentional? Is it capitalism at work? I don't know. But, as always, it's the lack of viable choices that angers me.

Especially with the change to the <Fly> Keyword removing Blood Angels from the meta.

All Imperium armies become all-Guard, all the time. Even in the causal environment, because there's no point playing anything else.

Non-specific <Imperial Faction> that relies on CPs / Guard Battalion / Guard Battalion

Is now the only viable build.

"But it was already that way!"

...Only if you're a net-listing grub running against other net-listing grubs.


For people who were running Guard Brigades or even mono-Guard, they got nerfed as well

As I posted late last thread. Cutting the 10/10 options off the top, still leaves the 8/10 options at the 'new' top. Whilst the average viability of units in the game goes down, and bad units remain at the bottom.

Guard is dead. Long live Guard. This one sentence more than anything indicates what I'm mad at.


For people who never had the option to farm CP, their opponents all just got weaker so they are more viable.

Only if they run hordes. Same as Guard.


And hey, I had a good game despite that because we've fostered a meta where you can take weak options and not just get a crushing loss. If, again, your meta is not like this, well that's sucks, and I feel bad for you, but there's nothing I can do about that.

That's just it.
8th Ed. started as a brimming beacon of untapped potential. A number of meta-shifts with each released Codex. Then Big FAQ Errata happened, at everyone flocked to Guard. Then Big FAQ Errata 2 happened, and anyone still holding out, just got railroaded into including Guard into their army. It's not so much a meta shift, as a meta collapse. Good job breaking it, hero GW.

I can fluff this that Guard are the Hammer of the Emperor.
I can fluff this that Guard are everywhere. That's the point.
I know how Narrative works. I understand 40K's lore.

However, as a consumer, as a player, it kind of sucks.

Just as Blackhawk refuses to bring a Grot Battalion. Most Ork players recommend it (again, even if it's just for re-rolls). But, with a Codex coming out, with Stratagems likely worth having; With number of CPs you have, tied to winning games, and cheap Troops tied to CPs...You get the idea.

Problem; Guard are everywhere, except a few places.
Solution; Make Guard everywhere.

This is where things get dark; If it wasn't nerfed, is it working as intended?

How does GW sell Guard to Tyranid players?
How does GW sell Guard to Ork players? (Rumoured)

Is short-sightedness? Or capitalism?

Hanlon's Razor? Or Occam's? Damn. There's another good reference point for a Thread Title.

You mentioned another thing, that a whole bunch of Factions (which the exception of Aeldari ones) all have reasons to Ally with Guard.
...I honestly couldn't think of anything worse for the health of the game at this point.


1. The screening unit is about 4-5 inches away from the Knight

You are 100% doing screens wrong. There are no more Template or Blast weapons. Welcome to 8th Ed.


2. The screening unit is hugging the Knight.

I have a feeling that Guard could move back to Conscripts and Insane Bravery.


3. There is enough screen in the way that the is a solid blob of infantry a good 6 inches in front of the Knight...

The ability to Charge behind models is how you Charge something with a screen in front of it. A correct screen will surround a model's entire base. However, this normally isn't a viable tactic for a variety of reasons, which will typically leave the 'back' of a Monster or Vehicle's base unprotected, and that's when <Fly> could punish their opponent. However, you can't do that now, which means that tactically, large Monsters and Vehicles got better not worse because they can't be Charged as easily.

So, two of major problems coming out of BAO and NOVA for Big FAQ Errata 2;
- Knights too good (BAO (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23261654&postcount=1002) for those who've forgotten)
- Guard too good.

Whether directly or indirectly, GW made them better.


I'm not going to respond to anything regarding this post.
I've said my piece. I can only wait until Chapter Approved 2018 and points changes.

I need to work on my Kill Team Guide.

[deuterio12]

It is only natural crunch follows the fluff and Imperial Guard takes their rightful place as the true backbone of the Imperium that keeps all the loyalist factions running.:smallcool:

[Blackhawk748]

It is only natural crunch follows the fluff and Imperial Guard takes their rightful place as the true backbone of the Imperium that keeps all the loyalist factions running.:smallcool:

Tell that to Ad Mech you uncultured meat bag. They operate solo and with our (rather crappy) CP Regen we could, cuz I'd get back my 3ish CP I spent on sneaking in my Disco Stick priests (which is now a dead strategy, thanks Alpha Legion), their support and my bots which meant I could do stuff like spend points on Eradication Volley or Rotate Ion Shields.

Now most of that is dead because I have to save all of my CP for rerolls and my Doctrinas

[Forum Explorer]

I'm not going to respond to anything regarding this post.
I've said my piece. I can only wait until Chapter Approved 2018 and points changes.

I need to work on my Kill Team Guide.

Well its a shame you wasted 1500 words to completely miss my point then. I also have better things to do, so I'll try and summarize my points as best I can.

1. In really competitive areas, Guard were already being taken as allies for the exact purpose that you are now considering them for. Look at the tournament results you just posted; 8/9 Imperium armies had a Guard Battalion/Brigade. NOVA was the same way. Nothing. Has. Changed. I'm not saying it's not a problem, I'm saying it's not a new problem.

2. Casual Metas look completely different from what you experience. What you describe as the average Imperium army, would be seen as a tournament list over here. Here's the average Imperium list in my meta. 1 Battalion of any Imperium faction, yes even stuff like Imperial Fists. Likely 1 more detachment of the same faction, could be a battalion could be anything else. Or maybe (very maybe), a single small Knight because they already own one, or an assassin because they like them. The biggest exception to that is Knights who always have a battalion of some other Imperium faction because most of us can't afford to build a pure Knight army.

3. If you want your meta to not have being filled with Brave 32, then just don't do it. Try to deescalate the competitiveness of your meta. See if you can convince others to follow your example. But jumping on the bandwagon and immediately picking up Guard to farm CP is not helping the problem, won't make for funner games, and will only encourage others to do the same.

[Cheesegear]

1. In really competitive areas, Guard were already being taken as allies for the exact purpose that you are now considering them for. Look at the tournament results you just posted; 8/9 Imperium armies had a Guard Battalion/Brigade. NOVA was the same way. Nothing. Has. Changed. I'm not saying it's not a problem, I'm saying it's not a new problem.

Yeah. You're right. It isn't a new problem, and now the problem persists, even after a chance to change it (Go, go real world example!). Is that genuinely what you want? They've had six months of dominance to begin with, why not give them another six months? After all, it's only more of the same, right? What could possibly be so wrong about leaving the game broken, for longer? The fact that nothing has changed, is what's made me mad.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/401/347/312.jpg

Errata 2; Nerfing Boogaloo was a chance to fix the problem. Not only did they not fix the problem of hordes being too strong, but they have actually made it so that hordes are the only viable archetype. Orks can very easily put 150 models on the board, all of them with roughly Leadership 30. It's not as good as Guard. But I still have no interest in playing against it. Just like I have no intention of playing against anyone with 120 Cultists and Abaddon. 'Nids can do roughly the same thing. The only reason it isn't done, is because Guard do the best version of it. So why not just play the best version of the archetype you want to play? The whole point of community feedback, and spruiking 'New GW' was the idea that certain Factions and army archetypes wouldn't be allowed to dominate so long because GW would recognise the problem, and fix it.

They haven't. Catchphrases like 'Mech is King' wasn't supposed to happen in 8th Ed.
'New GW' was supposed to make sure of it.
But, then again, 'New GW' actually meaning nothing at all, actually is the 8th Ed. catchphrase. Right? :smallsigh:

And I still can't decide on whose Razor to use; Hanlon's or Occam's.

[deuterio12]

Tell that to Ad Mech you uncultured meat bag. They operate solo and with our (rather crappy) CP Regen we could, cuz I'd get back my 3ish CP I spent on sneaking in my Disco Stick priests (which is now a dead strategy, thanks Alpha Legion), their support and my bots which meant I could do stuff like spend points on Eradication Volley or Rotate Ion Shields.

Now most of that is dead because I have to save all of my CP for rerolls and my Doctrinas

Good, now you may know how non-imperial players felt seeing you spend CPs willy-nilly with no real drawback while we have to carefully plan how to spend ours because they were never coming back in that game.

All the CP regen was not only getting pretty silly, it was pretty much concentrated in the ranks of the corpse-god worshipers, so this actually gives all the other factions a more even playing field. If Chaos needs to bring hordes of cultists/zombies/beastmen and orks needs hordes of gretchins and nids can only go horde too, then you can very well bring hordes of guardsmen.

[Turalisj]

Honestly? I'd prefer they go the Kill Team/Age of Sigmar route: You get a small number that regenerates every round, some more depending on what you have alive.

[Cheesegear]

Good, now you may know how non-imperial players felt seeing you spend CPs willy-nilly with no real drawback while we have to carefully plan how to spend ours because they were never coming back in that game.

I know for a fact that Craftworlds and Drukhari don't give a poop about CPs because their Codecies are Just Better, where every unit has their own abilities and everything Just Works. Their Farseers get re-rolls for free, and hand out even more re-rolls for free. If you have a Craftworlds army with <8 CPs, you'll still do just fine because Craftworlds don't need CPs - that's why they have Word of the Phoenix.

That's why you spend -1 CP to get Celestine and that's it. Because she doesn't need Stratagems to be effective.

This is what people don't understand about Imperial Codecies, and I don't even know if it's by design or not. Strength in Imperial Codecies almost always comes from Stratagems, not from Units, or Units' Abilities. That's why CPs are important. That's why regenerating them is even more important.


All the CP regen was not only getting pretty silly

Only because it was being stacked.


it was pretty much concentrated in the ranks of the corpse-god worshipers

Kabal of the Black Heart in every Aeldari list never happened.
Nobody ever combined Labyrinthine Cunning with an Autarch.


so this actually gives all the other factions a more even playing field.

It doesn't. It only shafts Factions with an ability to regen CPs and who have Troops over 10 points per model.
...So...Only Astartes books got nerfed. Good looking out.
Custodes are in a fair bit of trouble, too. But...Double Guard Battalion, I guess. Then again...<Fly> sucks now. Then again, Jetbikes have Hurricane Bolters.

Oooh. Custodes are interesting now. I don't know if they're playable or not. AHHHHHHHHH. :smallbiggrin:


If Chaos needs to bring hordes of cultists/zombies/beastmen and orks needs hordes of gretchins and nids can only go horde too, then you can very well bring hordes of guardsmen.

There it is. It's not that you can bring something to the table.
It's that you have to.
People have been railing against mono-builds for as long I can remember.
8th Ed. was supposed to be different.

[Requizen]

Honestly? I'd prefer they go the Kill Team/Age of Sigmar route: You get a small number that regenerates every round, some more depending on what you have alive.

Somehow, GW has managed to make their most popular property in to the most imbalanced and borked one of the bunch. AoS is in a great spot now both casually and competitively, everyone in my area is playing and enjoying Kill Team, and I still hold that Underworlds is the best designed GW game of the current era. 40k just can't seem to get it right.

Speaking of Kill Team, my Guard started to feel much better when I switched from pure Scions into Tempestors + Gunners + Flamer/Vox Guardsmen. Seems obvious, but man, those Flamer boiz are so reliable when it comes to helping create that space and contest the midfield while Volleys and Plasmas just rain hell down.

[Blackhawk748]

Good, now you may know how non-imperial players felt seeing you spend CPs willy-nilly with no real drawback while we have to carefully plan how to spend ours because they were never coming back in that game.

All the CP regen was not only getting pretty silly, it was pretty much concentrated in the ranks of the corpse-god worshipers, so this actually gives all the other factions a more even playing field. If Chaos needs to bring hordes of cultists/zombies/beastmen and orks needs hordes of gretchins and nids can only go horde too, then you can very well bring hordes of guardsmen.

I play Orks and Sisters, you know, two armies that can only spend CPs on rerolls? So don't tell me I don't know. On top of that, Ad Mech could never spend them "will nilly" because I didn't have all that many from the get go, and my Regen was nowhere near Ultramarine levels (the ones your actually thinking of).

Hordes for Days is bad design, and I say this as a horde player!

[Wraith]

Company who makes a huge amount of money from selling toy soldiers, designs a game wherein the winner is the guy who buys more toy soldiers.

This isn't news, as such. 40k has been going this way for a long, long time, it's just that in this edition they've decided that they will do it with infantry, instead of tanks or monstrous creatures. I guess they get to sell more paint and glue that way.

It is a shame, speaking as someone who has neither the time, budget or inclination to paint up 120 Guardsmen, but as has been said earlier in this discussion; all this really does is keep me out of competitive gaming (woe is me whatever will i do /s) and encourages me to have polite conversations with my opponent along the lines of "is it alright is we don't?".


Speaking of Kill Team, my Guard started to feel much better when I switched from pure Scions into Tempestors + Gunners + Flamer/Vox Guardsmen. Seems obvious, but man, those Flamer boiz are so reliable when it comes to helping create that space and contest the midfield while Volleys and Plasmas just rain hell down.

In my experience, this is pretty much true of any of the GW skirmish games - whoever can take more stuff (more men, more guns, more attacks, etc) and yet roll comparatively less dice (auto-hitting flamers, high-Strength Plasma) is at the biggest advantage.
It sounds unnecessarily simple to say out loud - "doing things consistently is good" - but it's often easy to forget when confronted by other, flashier choices. :smallsmile:

[Forum Explorer]

Tell that to Ad Mech you uncultured meat bag. They operate solo and with our (rather crappy) CP Regen we could, cuz I'd get back my 3ish CP I spent on sneaking in my Disco Stick priests (which is now a dead strategy, thanks Alpha Legion), their support and my bots which meant I could do stuff like spend points on Eradication Volley or Rotate Ion Shields.

Now most of that is dead because I have to save all of my CP for rerolls and my Doctrinas

Would you? I mean, assuming you are facing double Battalion, you'd likely get 2 CP back. Because that's how crappy the regen was. With the nerf you max out at 1 per turn. Which very well could still get 2 CP back, unless they blow through nearly all of their CP on turn 1.

Though your sneaking strategy did get killed for no real good reason.


Yeah. You're right. It isn't a new problem, and now the problem persists, even after a chance to change it (Go, go real world example!). Is that genuinely what you want? They've had six months of dominance to begin with, why not give them another six months? After all, it's only more of the same, right? What could possibly be so wrong about leaving the game broken, for longer? The fact that nothing has changed, is what's made me mad.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/401/347/312.jpg

Errata 2; Nerfing Boogaloo was a chance to fix the problem. Not only did they not fix the problem of hordes being too strong, but they have actually made it so that hordes are the only viable archetype. Orks can very easily put 150 models on the board, all of them with roughly Leadership 30. It's not as good as Guard. But I still have no interest in playing against it. Just like I have no intention of playing against anyone with 120 Cultists and Abaddon. 'Nids can do roughly the same thing. The only reason it isn't done, is because Guard do the best version of it. So why not just play the best version of the archetype you want to play? The whole point of community feedback, and spruiking 'New GW' was the idea that certain Factions and army archetypes wouldn't be allowed to dominate so long because GW would recognise the problem, and fix it.

They haven't. Catchphrases like 'Mech is King' wasn't supposed to happen in 8th Ed.
'New GW' was supposed to make sure of it.
But, then again, 'New GW' actually meaning nothing at all, actually is the 8th Ed. catchphrase. Right? :smallsigh:

And I still can't decide on whose Razor to use; Hanlon's or Occam's.

Oh no, I'm pretty disappointing at how crappy the FAQ was as well. It only addressed one problem, and then made a bunch of other stuff worse for almost no reason. Some things needed the nerf like the Kabal of Black Heart's stratagem, while others, like Alpha Legion's stuff did not.

And again, they failed to nerf Guard, instead nerfing the stuff around Guard while Guard are the problem.

So yeah, I'm pretty disappointed. It's a pretty garbage FAQ.


Honestly? I'd prefer they go the Kill Team/Age of Sigmar route: You get a small number that regenerates every round, some more depending on what you have alive.

Agreed. That or just increasing the base CP you start with, instead of increasing Battalion's and Brigades.

[Blackhawk748]

Would you? I mean, assuming you are facing double Battalion, you'd likely get 2 CP back. Because that's how crappy the regen was. With the nerf you max out at 1 per turn. Which very well could still get 2 CP back, unless they blow through nearly all of their CP on turn 1.

Let's look at this statistically shall we? I have a 1/6 chance of getting a CP back per Stratagem used. I have 10 and my Opponent has 10 (because we're both a bunch of scrubs who can only run a pair of Battalions). Both of us are going to maximize the use of the 1 CP Stratagems (because rerolls are amazing and most of the good ones are 1 CP). That's 20 uses of Stratagems.

Now, I Not!Infiltrate 4 units (4 CP) and go first, popping Protector Doctrina (1 CP) and Eradication Volley (2CP). By odds, I just got 1 CP back. Now my Opponent Rerolls (1 CP) to save a dude and then does their turn. The probably do another reroll (1 CP) then use another few Stratagems, let's say three 1 CPs (for a total of 3) and then a 2 CP. By odds, I just got another CP back.

Turn 1 7 CP spent, 2 regained. My Total: 5. Opponents total: 3

The game continues like this and by odds, I should get 1.5 more CPs back. Let's round up and say I got 2. I should, with a fair statistical probability, get my 4 CP back from Clandestine Infiltration. The only way I don't have fair odds, is if my opponent uses a bunch of 2 CP or higher Stratagems.

And if you look, 2 of my 4 CP were on Turn 1. One from me and another from my opponent, this is actually very common as I will tend to get one back from myself and another from my opponent on Turn 2 as well. After that, we usually only have 1 or 2 each and are saving them for the pocket re-roll. So this change just cut my CP regen in half. Or denied me the use of a pair of Stratagems or Re-Rolls.


Though your sneaking strategy did get killed for no real good reason.

I'm honestly more pissed about this than I am about the CPs (and in rather annoyed about those), for one simple reason; this change just killed Fulgurite Priests. Stygies Fulgurites were usable, dare I say decent, but with the change, they stand no chance of making it into melee and will just die horribly. So they're dead now. It also stops me from punishing my opponent with a brick of Bots a Plasma Servitors for leaving a flank open.

Really all this change does is let people be sloppier in their set-up. Stupid seals.

[druid91]

So, this is something I'm actually curious to see.

Cheesegear. What would you have done for the big FAQ's? Like right now. Wipe out the Big FAQ's and it's YOU who's writing them both. What rules would you have instituted?

[Forum Explorer]

Let's look at this statistically shall we? I have a 1/6 chance of getting a CP back per Stratagem used. I have 10 and my Opponent has 10 (because we're both a bunch of scrubs who can only run a pair of Battalions). Both of us are going to maximize the use of the 1 CP Stratagems (because rerolls are amazing and most of the good ones are 1 CP). That's 20 uses of Stratagems.

Now, I Not!Infiltrate 4 units (4 CP) and go first, popping Protector Doctrina (1 CP) and Eradication Volley (2CP). By odds, I just got 1 CP back. Now my Opponent Rerolls (1 CP) to save a dude and then does their turn. The probably do another reroll (1 CP) then use another few Stratagems, let's say three 1 CPs (for a total of 3) and then a 2 CP. By odds, I just got another CP back.

Turn 1 7 CP spent, 2 regained. My Total: 5. Opponents total: 3

The game continues like this and by odds, I should get 1.5 more CPs back. Let's round up and say I got 2. I should, with a fair statistical probability, get my 4 CP back from Clandestine Infiltration. The only way I don't have fair odds, is if my opponent uses a bunch of 2 CP or higher Stratagems.

And if you look, 2 of my 4 CP were on Turn 1. One from me and another from my opponent, this is actually very common as I will tend to get one back from myself and another from my opponent on Turn 2 as well. After that, we usually only have 1 or 2 each and are saving them for the pocket re-roll. So this change just cut my CP regen in half. Or denied me the use of a pair of Stratagems or Re-Rolls.



I'm honestly more pissed about this than I am about the CPs (and in rather annoyed about those), for one simple reason; this change just killed Fulgurite Priests. Stygies Fulgurites were usable, dare I say decent, but with the change, they stand no chance of making it into melee and will just die horribly. So they're dead now. It also stops me from punishing my opponent with a brick of Bots a Plasma Servitors for leaving a flank open.

Really all this change does is let people be sloppier in their set-up. Stupid seals.

Whoops misread it as your opponent only. That's what my math was based off of. Going off of both is actually decent, though I consider the 5+ on either yourself or your opponent (or both in the case of Guard :smallyuk:) to have been utterly OP before the nerf. Honestly, that' what my proposed change was, that you can only ever gain a command point on a 6, or some other statistically likely number.


It is pretty stupid. That stratagem could be annoying to deal with, but you could deal with it, and it was hardly game breaking.

[Cheesegear]

Cheesegear. What would you have done for the big FAQ's? Like right now. Wipe out the Big FAQ's and it's YOU who's writing them both. What rules would you have instituted?

1. Leave the Tactical Reserves as-is from FAQ Errata 1. You can only arrive in your own DZ on Turn 1. Fair enough.
1b. Alternatively, just go back to previous editions; Whoever has the first turn may not declare any Charges...There is now a benefit to going second. This would also solve what I think people see with the problem of 2...

2. Raven Guard, Alpha Legion and Stygies VIII; If it genuinely is a problem (and I literally never once thought it was), then make it like Fresh Converts, where the amount of CPs you spend to 'Infiltrate' a unit is based on its Power Rating. I have absolutely no idea what 'The Community' is talking about. But scrubs obviously identified it as a problem. I understand that some people might see that Infiltrating units, going first, and making Charges is a little bit of a problem. But, in games where I've played against it, and I've gone first, I've never found it a problem
2b. Removing first turn Charges on Turn 1. Full Stop. Would still allow you to Infiltrate. But, in order to make it work 'the broken way', you'd either have to go second - giving your opponent a chance to shoot you - or spend your first turn doing nothing, giving your opponent a chance to shoot you or Charge you in their turn.

3. Prepared Positions can only be used if you finished setting up during Deployment first, and are now going second. As-written, Prepared Positions is vastly in favour of hordes. Which don't need the help. They're going second anyway, and they have more models/units than you do, so they really need to be shot at as much as possible... If you finish setting up before your opponent does, you were in position before they were? +1 to go first, and a Stratagem, and possibly the ability make a Charge, whereas your opponent can't (see 1.).
3b. Altneratively, just bring back Night Fighting on Turn 1. At least then you wouldn't have to spend CPs for that garbage.

4. You may only gain or regenerate CPs from one source on your army list.
4b. Change Adept of the Codex (Ultramarines) and Hyperlogical Strategist (Sautekh) to read 'Roll a number of dice equal to the number of CPs spent, and pick the highest'. This means that the Warlord Traits would give you more chances to get a single CP back, but the end result would still be the same; +1 CP. As opposed to before, where Ultramarines can refund all three CPs back from Fighting twice. I did that all the time, and even I know it's stupid. Right now, however, Adept of the Codex and Hyperlogical Strategist don't work. Which, probably wouldn't be so bad, if they weren't Sub-Faction Warlord Traits, which means that named Characters are forced into having a Warlord Trait that doesn't even work like it's supposed to.

5. Units in Auxiliary Detachments and Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachments don't count as 'Detachments' for the purposes of having access to Stratagems. They be targets for Stratagems, if they have the correct Keywords. But they can't generate their own Stratagems from their Faction. We already know that single Knights are broken. But a few times over the last few months I've also seen single units of Black Heart Warriors (Agents of Vect) or single Sa'cea Marksman (Orbital Markerlight Beam Cannon).

6. Regardless of source, no more than -2 to hit can be applied to any one unit.

7.
Battalions; 0-2.
Brigades; If your army includes a Brigade, it may not include any Battalions.

7b. Alternatively, just ignore Errata 1, and changed Battalions and Brigades back to their Rulebook CP values. I have no idea why this wasn't implemented. But, I guess doing this would be GW admitting to actually making a mistake. Instead, they've gone for the jumbled approach of stacking rules on top of bad rules, instead of just...Removing the bad rules.

[bluntpencil]

An additional two options to deal with First Turn winners:

1) Remove 'First Blood'.

and/or

2) Add 'Last Laugh'. The last person to score a kill gets a VP.

[deuterio12]

2) Add 'Last Laugh'. The last person to score a kill gets a VP.

Oh, I like this one. Really goes well with doing a last-turn spite kill.

[Cheesegear]

Oh, I like this one. Really goes well with doing a last-turn spite kill.

I disagree. Typically in the last turns, the play who is losing isn't going to be able to do a whole lot of anything - that's why they're losing in the first place.
This means that in many more games than not, the player who is already winning, is going to get an extra VP in their last turn.

You make it so no players can score First Blood, or neither player can.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Armies that remain totally strong...
Guard Brigades & Custodes Jetbikes.

Lol, that's the only army beat last weekend.

I've never had a problem with Custodes Jetbikes no matter what I took. I only lose to them when Maelstrom screws me over because every casualty counts so much for them and they bounce off anything toughness 7, don't know what the fuss is about.

[LeSwordfish]

An additional two options to deal with First Turn winners:

1) Remove 'First Blood'.

and/or

2) Add 'Last Laugh'. The last person to score a kill gets a VP.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the problem with Alpha Strikes is the sheer amount of damage you can do, not the bonus VP you get for doing it.

[Cheesegear]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the problem with Alpha Strikes is the sheer amount of damage you can do, not the bonus VP you get for doing it.

...Eternal War Missions are almost always won on Secondaries.
Both players can get Linebreaker.
Both players can get Slay the Warlord.
Only one player gets First Blood.

In my experience with Eternal War, if it's not a totally obvious faceroll in the first two turns, then whoever has First Blood, wins.
It's actually a problem.

Posted from phone.

[LeSwordfish]

In my experience with Eternal War, if it's not a totally obvious faceroll in the first two turns,

I thought the whole point of alpha strikes was to drive up the chance of getting that faceroll as high as possible.

[Forum Explorer]

...Eternal War Missions are almost always won on Secondaries.
Both players can get Linebreaker.
Both players can get Slay the Warlord.
Only one player gets First Blood.

In my experience with Eternal War, if it's not a totally obvious faceroll in the first two turns, then whoever has First Blood, wins.
It's actually a problem.

Posted from phone.

It's more that it's an unfair advantage to going first, which already has the unfair advantage of getting to alpha strike their opponent.

Anyways, it's an easy fix, just run First Strike instead.

[Cheesegear]

So, now that Guard don't do anything...

Stygies VIII, Battalion
Tech-Priest Dominus; Macrostubber, Volkite Blaster - 125 Points
Tech-Priest Enginseer; Servo-Arm - 47 Points

Skitarii Rangers (x5) - 35
Skitarii Rangers (x5) - 35
Skitarii Rangers (x5) - 35

Total: 277 Points

~100 Points over the Guard Battalion. But has the benefit of having -1 to hit, 4+/6++. Which means that they're less likely to give up free Kill Points. This build will probably be more appealing if/when Commanders go to 40 Points, and Infantry Squads go to 50. Remove top choice. Go to second choice. You know the drill. War(hammer 40K) Never Changes... I think that's a Thread Title.

Sororitas, Battalion
Celestine; Geminae Superia (x2) - 250 Points
Canoness - 45 Points

Battle Sisters (x5) - 45 Points
Battle Sisters (x5) - 45 Points
Battle Sisters (x5) - 45 Points

Total: 430 Points.

To be fair, more than half of those points are coming straight out of Celestine herself. Instead of taking -1 CP to take her, you net +6 CPs for mostly the models you were going to take anyway. That is, if you're taking Celestine anyway...Which a whole bunch of people are, because she really is that good. What sets her apart from other models with <Fly> is that she has two Movement phases, which should get her where she needs to be, before the Charge phase.

The only consideration I/you have to make, is that Infantry squads come in 10-man units. Giving Guard double the models as everyone else. But...They're Guardsmen. T3/5+ isn't anything. And everyone knows how trash Lasguns are...Right?

[LansXero]

Sororitas, Battalion
Celestine; Geminae Superia (x2) - 250 Points
Canoness - 45 Points

Battle Sisters (x5) - 45 Points
Battle Sisters (x5) - 45 Points
Battle Sisters (x5) - 45 Points

Total: 430 Points.

To be fair, more than half of those points are coming straight out of Celestine herself.

heh, thats exactly 1 Celestine + 1 min. Guard batallion, go figure. So in case you just wanted the extra CPs and a bunch of tacticals with T3 (their Deny stratagem is cool too) you could get a min. Sisters batallion for just 45 pts. over the usual Guard version. Since you can also get Retributors or Dominions if you need help in those slots, the troops are 3+ / 6++, and the Canonesses are more likely to contribute to combat than the Guard Commanders, I think they are a really valid choice now that the CP regen is so nerfed.

[Turalisj]

Joke's on you, I've never had Guard, my main battalions have always been AdMech. Only with the update, I can't run my fulgurites because they're just free kills.

[Cheesegear]

Kill Team Q's

Can you choose not to Level Up your models, if they have the XP to do so?

Leveling Up - even unintentionally - feels like a(n unintentional) rubber band mechanic. If a player Levels Up too many models, they will either have to
a) Have less dudes in their next Team, or
b) Boot them off the Team and start again at Level 1. Or, more likely...
c) Have the exact same model 'recycle' into a new Dude, however, you also have a Level 3+ dude on your Roster ready to go, should you need it.

Whatever the point is, a winner who is...Winning. With multiple Level 3+ models, it seems like they should go back to either less models or Level 1s so that they can start losing. However, this rubbed a bunch of people in my meta the wrong way because nobody is supposed to actually stop them from clubbing seals.

[Wraith]

Kill Team Q's

Can you choose not to Level Up your models, if they have the XP to do so?

I don't have an 'official' answer, but the way that it is written in the book (page 204) is a definitive - "when you check a box with an orange outline, the Specialist becomes level 2". There's no "may" or "choose to" about it; you tick the box, it happens.

I honestly think it's more straight forward than most Specialist games, where the wording is usually that you MAY level up; that can be interpreted as either giving permission or giving a choice (you may, or may not), but I don't see that in Kill Team.

That comes in the next sentence - you CAN choose a new skill, which sounds strangely optional as if you've pay for a level 2 character and then not take the skill for it.... *shrug*

Out of curiosity, what was the answer you found to the question that you deleted about continuing to play against tabled teams?
Personally, I couldn't find any "automatic win" conditions in the book (unlike in Necromunda or 40k), and since some of the objectives were not guaranteed (having to roll 5+ to destroy them in an Aerial Strike for example) then the difference between a Draw, a Win or an Overwhelming Victory could technically require you to play by yourself for a few turns....

[Cheesegear]

Out of curiosity, what was the answer you found to the question that you deleted about continuing to play against tabled teams?

Certain Missions go until Turn 4+. They don't end when you feel like it.


Personally, I couldn't find any "automatic win" conditions in the book

The main issue is that all Missions are different. A few of which have auto-end conditions, as well as auto-win conditions. Not only are the Victory Conditions different. But GW went 'full Sigmar' and also changed it so that Battle Length is different per Mission - Missions go to Turn 4+, even with one player left on the board. Unless they don't...

Assassinate; Game ends when a Leader dies. The winner is automatically the player whose Leader isn't dead.

Ambush; The game immediately ends if the Defender's models are Shaken, OoA or off the board. Whilst not explicit, the Attacker auto-wins once they OoA half or more of the Defender's models. Though the game wont necessarily end there.

Sweep and Clear and Terror Tactics
Game ends if there is only one Unbroken Team on the battlefield. The winner is automatically the Team that isn't Broken... Noting that a Team is automatically Broken, if they have no models left.

So, yeah. Rule #1 is essentially read the Mission. Like Sigmar, tabling your opponent doesn't necessarily trigger an auto-end and/or auto-win because that isn't how Kill Team works - good.

[Wraith]

The main issue is that all Missions are different. A few of which have auto-end conditions, as well as auto-win conditions.

So, yeah. Rule #1 is essentially read the Mission. Like Sigmar, tabling your opponent doesn't necessarily trigger an auto-end and/or auto-win because that isn't how Kill Team works - good.

Allow me to rephrase: there are no blanket auto-win conditions that say "In any mission, tabling your opponent automatically grants you an Overwhelming Victory and the game ends immediately".

On the one hand, I appreciate the way that GW have handled it; if the mission says that to win you have to break all of the objectives with a 5+ before the end of Turn 5, then by God that's what you need to do and there's no getting out of it "the easy way".

On the other.... Hopefully people will use common sense to work it out quickly, rather than meticulously stick to the turn/phase order and keep people waiting for them to finish playing all by themselves.

[Cheesegear]

On the one hand, I appreciate the way that GW have handled it; if the mission says that to win you have to break all of the objectives with a 5+ before the end of Turn 5, then by God that's what you need to do and there's no getting out of it "the easy way".

Our Team got 57 kills. We never pushed the cart a single frame and we lost. What gives!? :smallfurious:

[Wraith]

Pretty much. It's almost as though GW designed it so that people would have to play the game with cunning and tactics, rather than just roll dice at each other until everyone else goes away....

[9mm]

Our Team got 57 kills. We never pushed the cart a single frame and we lost. What gives!? :smallfurious:

Space Marines OP.

[bluntpencil]

Take Prisoners is especially dumb considering no winning via tabling.

Let's say I have five Deathwatch Veterans, including my Sergeant, all kitted for melee, because it's take prisoners.

I'm against fifteen Guard, all with guns, because Guard.

Turn one, I do really well, and charge forward, taking out five Guard in melee, including the leader. I'm on 7 VP.

My opponent responds in kind, charging my one dude who is by himself, and shooting the rest to death. He kills four of my dudes, including my leader, with plasma gunfire.

He captures my last guy by smacking him upside the head with a lasgun stock.

I win. I took five prisoners to his one, even though all my dudes are dead, save the one guy he captured. He still has ten guys standing, who somehow can't free their captured brethren, shackled by dead Space Marines. Doesn't add up at all, and can, quite feasibly, happen.

[Wraith]

Take Prisoners is especially dumb considering no winning via tabling.

With that, you could kind of imagine that the Astartes strap on a Metal Gear: Phantom Pain-style Fulton Balloon, so that the guy they capture shoots off into the sky and doesn't come back. Maybe.

Lines of Battle is probably the most dumb. You can table your opponent's team, but if you don't walk off the table edge before you roll a 4+ to continue the game, you instantly lose.... even though there is literally - specifically - nothing in your way to prevent you from doing it, apart from an arbitrary time-limit.

The rules for that even specifically state that you must move a model entirely off the table edge - if your guy's base 1/8th of an inch short, even though his entire body is off the table then it doesn't count. :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

Take Prisoners is especially dumb considering no winning via tabling.


Lines of Battle is probably the most dumb.

Both Take Prisoners and Lines of Battle Ambush are what caused my question in the first place. :smalltongue:

[9mm]

My face when I realize I'm probably about to buy 2 boxes of scouts just for Kill Team.

Well its official, I'll own a battalion of space marines by the time I'm done making my KILL TEAM.

[Cheesegear]

Well its official, I'll own a battalion of space marines by the time I'm done making my KILL TEAM.

That wouldn't be unusual. To complete your Kill Team you'd need;

x8 Scouts with Shotguns and/or Blades - or combination thereof
x2 Scouts with Heavy Bolters
x2 Scouts with Missile Launchers
x1 Scout Sergeant with Chainsword

x4-6 Tactical Marine Gunners with varying loadouts (depending on your meta).
Several versions of a Tactical Sergeant (Use magnets!)

x1 Reiver Sergeant

Intercessor or Intercessor Sergeant with Auspex (as per Errata)
Intercessor Gunner with AGL

[9mm]

Intercessor or Intercessor Sergeant with Auspex (as per Errata)


Damn I missed that in the FAQ, and had been using that model as my comms specialist. Nice.

Currently I'm at

2 intercessor Sgts
2 intercessor w/ AGL
3 intercessor w/ bolt rifle
1 intercessor w/ auspex
3 Reivers w/ combat knife
1 Reiver sgt
1 Scout with sniper rifle.

sadly it looks like getting individual models will cost the same as just buying scouts. Maybe I'll wait till after I finish my knights before expanding further. We'll see. (lord knows between the Knights and Soul Wars my backlog is big enough)

[Drasius]

Just because I know it will set Cheesegear's hair on fire, I wish to relate the very first thing I heard on walking back into my old flgs now that work has returned me to the region:

P1: "man, I hope they adjust Gulliman's points in the next generals handbook"
P2: "yeah, another 50 points would be good, he's pretty strong"
Blackshirt: "uh, I remember taking him down in a single round with my death guard, he's not that good"
P2: "yeah, but you were using plague marines and they're really good!"
Blackshirt: *raised eyebrow*

Given that the blackshirt in question is fairly casual himself 90% of the time when it comes to 40k, I was a little surprised, but after a bit of a chat, turns out that most of the super competitive ... people have moved to AoS and 40k is a bit more for fun these days as a side show.

So, yeah, casuals goanna casual I guess.

[Cheesegear]

Just because I know it will set Cheesegear's hair on fire

I see you're trying to trigger me...


P1: "man, I hope they adjust Gulliman's points in the next generals handbook"

...And you have succeeded.

I mean, at this point, with Adept of the Codex going into the dumpster fire (Ultramarines), along with Raven Guard getting the double-nerf with Strike From the Shadows* and <Fly> getting significantly less good. Almost everyone with a truly competitive streak involving Power Armour & Boltguns is moving towards Dark Angels (taking the -1 to hit off of Darkshrouds and the double-Auras coming out of Azrael, along with Talonmasters being super-effecient, means that Dark Angels effectively get to play as Ultramarines and Raven Guard at the same time). Making Guilliman 450, or even 425, would pretty much be the final nail in Space Marines' coffin. For anyone still clinging to any hope that Space Marines can be a viable Codex.

Guilliman is all that is left*. Also remembering that Adept of the Codex also no longer works as written. Which means that he doesn't even have the best Warlord Trait in the book anymore (that's Storm of Fire, now). Which means that you don't want him as your Warlord, and, additionally, if he's not your Warlord, he doesn't give the +3 CPs either. So, at this point you have to ask yourself, what is Guilliman?

Guilliman, at this point, is a Knight Gallant, that can't be targeted (only has 9 Wounds with a chance for +1d6), can't make first-turn Charges, and hands out strong buffs to mediocre models. A Knight Gallant is 354 Points, base. Guilliman is 400, and worse (individually, that is). Anyone who thinks Guilliman needs another nerf, after Adept of the Codex was thrown into the fire needs their head checked...


So, yeah, casuals goanna casual I guess.

:smallsigh:

*Seriously, with Strike From the Shadows getting the 9" nerf, it is objectively worse than Forlorn Fury which gives a 12" Move. With <Fly> affecting Blood Angels and Raven Guard equally, it all comes down to the unit wearing the Jump Pack; I don't think that there are too many people going around saying that Raven Guard Vanguard are better than Blood Angels Death Company or Sanguinary Guard.

EDIT:
With Fly/Melee getting the hard nerf, and Infantry screens actually doing something now, maybe Vehicles Razorbacks might come back into the meta?

[bluntpencil]

Is it just me, or is the Fly fix utterly crap?

Proposed alteration:

Yes, you can charge over units but if you fly over a unit, you must also declare it a charge target. This gives it the opportunity to overwatch/punch you if you land near it.

Also, charges are from base to base, so no luck deep striking onto tall buildings.

[Cheesegear]

Yes, you can charge over units but if you fly over a unit, you must also declare it a charge target. This gives it the opportunity to overwatch/punch you if you land near it.

So...Make screens better, so that you'll never Fly over models ever again? I thought you were trying to do something different?

[bluntpencil]

So...Make screens better, so that you'll never Fly over models ever again? I thought you were trying to do something different?

I'd still Fly over models to get juicy targets, but it would prevent jetbikes from utterly devastating most backlines without some sort of payment.

The new fix, well, it doesn't make any sense. Jetbikes can't charge a plane, not because it's going at supersonic speeds, but because it's going at supersonic speeds behind a unit of infantry.

[LansXero]

So...Make screens better, so that you'll never Fly over models ever again? I thought you were trying to do something different?

It would make the BA wings so much better though. Or similar no-OW abilities.

Also, its not like eating overwatch from a bunch of lasguns would do much if anything to Custodes Jetbikes or Shining Spears. So I dont see why it would be such a bad change. Unlike now, if you WANT to go across, you can choose to eat the OW and risk it

[CN the Logos]

Curious here: Is anyone else getting into Adeptus Titanicus, or did the $500 USD GW's asking for the starter set price everyone out of the game? Some of you guys are pretty good at strategy/tactics, so I'd like to hear your thoughts if you have them.

Also, made an attempt at the Reaver scratch build. The template was a LOT less user friendly than the Warhound one. I did, however, learn enough from it that I think I'll be able to scratch-build the parts I was having trouble with on my next attempt, which I will start as soon as I finish my first AT Warlord. Stay tuned.

[Drasius]

Curious here: Is anyone else getting into Adeptus Titanicus, or did the $500 USD GW's asking for the starter set price everyone out of the game? Some of you guys are pretty good at strategy/tactics, so I'd like to hear your thoughts if you have them.

It was $500 AUD, which is notably less in USD and that was for 2 starter armies, same as all their other starter boxes (but still a fairly large ask for many people).

I'm in the process of moving back to a place where I can play TT again and the starter sold out very quick, enough that eBay is the only option in Australia. Only one of my mates picked it up, but if our games are fun, it won't take much for more of the lads to get started on their own armies.

[Wraith]

I think what might be a kill for this game is not necessarily the price, but that it has little opportunity to cross-over with other games.

I think that one of the biggest appeals for games like Space Hulk and Death Watch, was that you could buy the game, play it, and then use the same models as characters and veteran squads in 40k.

The Titans in Titanicus are a weird scale that makes them not quite big enough to be 'proper' titans in 40k or 30k. You can't really use them in anything other than Titanicus, and I'm not sure that's such a great selling point compared to previous efforts.
Were the Titans all big enough to use with Codex Imperial Knights then I think it would be far more popular - they may yet save it by releasing 40k datasheets. Right now though, it's a LOT of money for something that you can only use once.

[LeSwordfish]

Ultimately, my concern is that it costs almost as much as a full 40k army for a game that I simply don't know if i'll be able to play. A Necromunda gang or Kill Team or Shadespire warband or similar costs like £50 tops, so it's not too much money down the drain if nobody else is playing. (And, as wraith said, you can't repurpose the models.)

[9mm]

Curious here: Is anyone else getting into Adeptus Titanicus, or did the $500 USD GW's asking for the starter set price everyone out of the game? Some of you guys are pretty good at strategy/tactics, so I'd like to hear your thoughts if you have them.

Also, made an attempt at the Reaver scratch build. The template was a LOT less user friendly than the Warhound one. I did, however, learn enough from it that I think I'll be able to scratch-build the parts I was having trouble with on my next attempt, which I will start as soon as I finish my first AT Warlord. Stay tuned.

For that money I could play Gloomhaven. No crossover rules to make it become Apocalypse/epic 2.0 doesn't help, and honestly if I just wanted mech on mech action, I have Battletech.

If the models were 40k sized it might have had a chance, if they give actual epic rules, it might have a chance, as is? my money is better spent elsewhere.

[LansXero]

It was a no-sale here as well, mostly because everyone was expecting that the Titans to be usable as Armiger / Knight proxies (or 'alternate models' if thats more palatable) and was super dissapointed when that was not the case. That and the scenery being kind of ridiculous as well deflated what hype there was for the game.

[JNAProductions]

Battalion One

HQs
75-Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken
40-Company Commander with Power Fist

Troops
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun

Elites
50-Sergeant Harker
35-Ministorum Priest with Autogun and Chainsword
67-Ogryn Bodyguard with Slabshield, Bullgryn Plate, and Bullgryn Maul

Fast Attacks
120-Hellhound with Track Guards and Heavy Flamer
120-Hellhound with Track Guards and Heavy Flamer
120-Hellhound with Track Guards and Heavy Flamer

Heavy Support
33-Heavy Weapons Teams, three Mortars
33-Heavy Weapons Teams, three Mortars
33-Heavy Weapons Teams, three Mortars

Total Points
978

Battalion Two

HQs
40-Company Commander with Power Fist
40-Company Commander with Power Fist

Troops
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun

Elites
35-Ministorum Priest with Autogun and Chainsword
67-Ogryn Bodyguard with Slabshield, Bullgryn Plate, and Bullgryn Maul

Total Points
434

Spearhead

HQ
46-Primaris Psyker

Heavy Supports
180-Leman Russ, Executioner Plasma Cannon, two Plasma Cannons, Heavy Bolter
180-Leman Russ, Executioner Plasma Cannon, two Plasma Cannons, Heavy Bolter
180-Leman Russ, Executioner Plasma Cannon, two Plasma Cannons, Heavy Bolter

Total Points
586



1,998 points.

Lots of infantry.
Handful of tanks-rerolling 1s thanks to Harker.

Can I get some feedback on this list?

Also modeling ideas, other than just "Buy the kits and build them as instructed"? (Especially conversions for Harker and Straken.)

[Cheesegear]

Can I get some feedback on this list?

Well, first thing you do - and I don't know how this isn't totally obvious...

Catachan, Brigade
Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken - 75 Points
Company Commander; Power Fist - 38 Points You know Power Fists are 8 Points, right?
Company Commander; Power Fist - 38 Points

Infantry Squad; Lascannon, Sniper Rifle, Boltgun & Chainsword - 63 Points
Infantry Squad; Lascannon, Sniper Rifle, Boltgun & Chainsword - 63 Points
Infantry Squad; Lascannon, Sniper Rifle, Boltgun & Chainsword - 63 Points
Infantry Squad; Lascannon, Sniper Rifle, Boltgun & Chainsword - 63 Points
Infantry Squad; Lascannon, Sniper Rifle, Boltgun & Chainsword - 63 Points
Infantry Squad; Lascannon, Sniper Rifle, Boltgun & Chainsword - 63 Points

Sergeant Harker - 50 Points
Ministorum Priest; Autogun, Chainsword - 35 Points
Ministorum Priest; Autogun, Chainsword - 35 Points
Ogryn Bodyguard; Bullgryn Maul, Bullgryn Plate, Slabshield - 67 Points
Ogryn Bodyguard; Bullgryn Maul, Bullgryn Plate, Slabshield - 67 Points

Hellhound; Heavy Flamer, Track Guards - 120 Points
Hellhound; Heavy Flamer, Track Guards - 120 Points
Hellhound; Heavy Flamer, Track Guards - 120 Points

Heavy Weapons Team; Mortars (x3) - 33 Points
Heavy Weapons Team; Mortars (x3) - 33 Points
Heavy Weapons Team; Mortars (x3) - 33 Points

Catachan, Spearhead
Company Commander; Power Fist - 38 Points
Primaris Psyker; Force Stave - 46 Points Which is weird, because you know that Primaris Psykers are 46 Points, now.

Infantry Squad; Lascannon, Sniper Rifle, Boltgun & Chainsword - 63 Points
Infantry Squad; Lascannon, Sniper Rifle, Boltgun & Chainsword - 63 Points

Leman Russ; Executioner Plasma Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Plasma Cannons (x2) - 180 Points
Leman Russ; Executioner Plasma Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Plasma Cannons (x2) - 180 Points
Leman Russ; Executioner Plasma Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Plasma Cannons (x2) - 180 Points

Total: 1992 Points

Just straight off the bat you pick up +2 Command Points using the exact same models. So, if you're not going to read the rest of this post, you can at least do that.

First, you're Catachans, which means moving forwards to get in Melee. That's the whole point. Which means that you're wasting a lot of points on Lascannons and Sniper Rifles that are always going to be taking -1 to hit... Otherwise, don't play Catachans. The alternative is that you've read a net-list and you don't even know how it plays. It's a Melee Horde. It's what people who play Orks are playing because Orks don't have a Codex (God damn, Orks are going to be so good).

If you do want to take Lascannons - because there's going to be more Knights in the meta, not less - you can at least fold them into the same squad to get more out of your Orders. Otherwise what are you even doing?

Ogryn Bodyguards don't do what you think they do. And as such you don't need more than one. And you definitely don't need more than one Priest. And if you do need more than one Priest, then we go back to Why do you have Lascannons and Rifles in your Infantry Squads that are supposed to Melee!?

Last, you don't have any Tank Commanders, which means that Executioners are basically useless and don't do anything. So, let's try this again, without wasting a load of points...

Catachan, Brigade
Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken - 75 Points
Company Commander; Kurov's Aquila - 30 Points
(W) Primaris Psyker; Force Stave, Old Grudges - 46 Points

Infantry Squad - 40 Points
Infantry Squad - 40 Points
Infantry Squad - 40 Points
Infantry Squad - 40 Points
Infantry Squad - 40 Points
Infantry Squad - 40 Points

Platoon Commander - 20 Points
Command Squad; Sniper Rifles (x4) - 32 Points
Command Squad; Sniper Rifles (x4) - 32 Points
Sergeant Harker - 50 Points
Ministorum Priest; Autogun, Chainsword - 35 Points

Hellhound; Heavy Flamer, Track Guards - 120 Points
Hellhound; Heavy Flamer, Track Guards - 120 Points
Hellhound; Heavy Flamer, Track Guards - 120 Points

Heavy Weapons Team; Mortars (x3) - 33 Points
Heavy Weapons Team; Mortars (x3) - 33 Points
Heavy Weapons Team; Mortars (x3) - 33 Points

Catachan, Spearhead
Tank Commander; Executioner Plasma Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Plasma Cannons (x2) - 225 Points
Tank Commander; Executioner Plasma Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Plasma Cannons (x2) - 225 Points

Bullgryns (x5); Bullgryn Mauls (x5), Brute Shields/Slabshields - 210 Points

Leman Russ; Battle Cannon, Lascannon
Heavy Weapons Squad; Lascannons (x3) - 78 Points
Heavy Weapons Squad; Lascannons (x3) - 78 Points

Total: 1999 Points

Add a Boltgun wherever you want.


Also modeling ideas, other than just "Buy the kits and build them as instructed"? (Especially conversions for Harker and Straken.)

There are any number of good Straken conversions if you look.
However, Harker is basically as-is, because there aren't too many Guard models that exist that are designed to carry a man-portable Heavy Bolter.

[Forum Explorer]

Battalion One

HQs
75-Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken
40-Company Commander with Power Fist

Troops
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun

Elites
50-Sergeant Harker
35-Ministorum Priest with Autogun and Chainsword
67-Ogryn Bodyguard with Slabshield, Bullgryn Plate, and Bullgryn Maul

Fast Attacks
120-Hellhound with Track Guards and Heavy Flamer
120-Hellhound with Track Guards and Heavy Flamer
120-Hellhound with Track Guards and Heavy Flamer

Heavy Support
33-Heavy Weapons Teams, three Mortars
33-Heavy Weapons Teams, three Mortars
33-Heavy Weapons Teams, three Mortars

Total Points
978

Battalion Two

HQs
40-Company Commander with Power Fist
40-Company Commander with Power Fist

Troops
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun

Elites
35-Ministorum Priest with Autogun and Chainsword
67-Ogryn Bodyguard with Slabshield, Bullgryn Plate, and Bullgryn Maul

Total Points
434

Spearhead

HQ
46-Primaris Psyker

Heavy Supports
180-Leman Russ, Executioner Plasma Cannon, two Plasma Cannons, Heavy Bolter
180-Leman Russ, Executioner Plasma Cannon, two Plasma Cannons, Heavy Bolter
180-Leman Russ, Executioner Plasma Cannon, two Plasma Cannons, Heavy Bolter

Total Points
586



1,998 points.

Lots of infantry.
Handful of tanks-rerolling 1s thanks to Harker.

Can I get some feedback on this list?

Also modeling ideas, other than just "Buy the kits and build them as instructed"? (Especially conversions for Harker and Straken.)

More or less what Cheesegear said. There's no reason to go double Battalion when you're already taking the needed Elites and Fast Attack to make a Brigade and another detachment to boot. And ditto with the going Catachan part. If you want to be running Lascannon teams, then you should look at a different faction, likely Cadians so you can give them rerolls to hit. Which incidently, gives the Tanks the same ability as Harker just by standing still. You do miss out on the extra reroll to the number of shots. Unless you optimize your list a bit more to get a Tank Commander or two.

On that note, Cheesegear also gave you what is likely the best list you could make with his second suggestion. Just remember that Slabshields got nerfed and no longer work with Invulnerable saves.

[Cheesegear]

On that note, Cheesegear also gave you what is likely the best list you could make with his second suggestion. Just remember that Slabshields got nerfed and no longer work with Invulnerable saves.

The intent on having Slabshields is that with Psychic Barrier or Prepared Positions, they can have a 1+ Save...Or even both for a 0+.

[Forum Explorer]

The intent on having Slabshields is that with Psychic Barrier or Prepared Positions, they can have a 1+ Save...Or even both for a 0+.

Sure, and that's pretty good. It's just not the insanity that was having that and a 4++.

[Wardog]

Also modeling ideas, other than just "Buy the kits and build them as instructed"? (Especially conversions for Harker and Straken.)
I've seen some nice Harkers made from kitbashing the heavy bolter Space Marine Scout with Catachan parts.

I've got a rather crappy "Cadian Harker" made from a standard Cadian Guardsman somehow holding a heavy bolter from the Heavy Weapons Squad kit. (I'm currently using Ox from the Last Chancers as my Harker, but he's only available second-hand now).

Esher gangers make pretty good female Catachans, and the kit comes with shotguns if you want shotgun vets.

[9mm]

Battalion One

HQs
75-Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken
40-Company Commander with Power Fist

Troops
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun

Elites
50-Sergeant Harker
35-Ministorum Priest with Autogun and Chainsword
67-Ogryn Bodyguard with Slabshield, Bullgryn Plate, and Bullgryn Maul

Fast Attacks
120-Hellhound with Track Guards and Heavy Flamer
120-Hellhound with Track Guards and Heavy Flamer
120-Hellhound with Track Guards and Heavy Flamer

Heavy Support
33-Heavy Weapons Teams, three Mortars
33-Heavy Weapons Teams, three Mortars
33-Heavy Weapons Teams, three Mortars

Total Points
978

Battalion Two

HQs
40-Company Commander with Power Fist
40-Company Commander with Power Fist

Troops
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun
63-Infantry Squad with Lascannon Team and Sniper Rifle; Sergeant with Chainsword and Boltgun

Elites
35-Ministorum Priest with Autogun and Chainsword
67-Ogryn Bodyguard with Slabshield, Bullgryn Plate, and Bullgryn Maul

Total Points
434

Spearhead

HQ
46-Primaris Psyker

Heavy Supports
180-Leman Russ, Executioner Plasma Cannon, two Plasma Cannons, Heavy Bolter
180-Leman Russ, Executioner Plasma Cannon, two Plasma Cannons, Heavy Bolter
180-Leman Russ, Executioner Plasma Cannon, two Plasma Cannons, Heavy Bolter

Total Points
586



1,998 points.

Lots of infantry.
Handful of tanks-rerolling 1s thanks to Harker.

Can I get some feedback on this list?

Also modeling ideas, other than just "Buy the kits and build them as instructed"? (Especially conversions for Harker and Straken.)

Insert my standard comment on how missile launchers > lascannons. I'd also drop the plasma cannons and upgrade to straight battlecannon russ's, no need to waste points on tank commanders. You can safely ignore everyone saying to drop the heavy weapons, melee hoard or not, you're still guard and sometimes you'll just need to make a castle and shoot; but you really should reorg into a brigade.

[Cheesegear]

Insert my standard comment on how missile launchers > lascannons.

Depends how many Knights are in the meta. The only reason to run a Guard Brigade is if you're in a fairly competitive meta.


I'd also drop the plasma cannons and upgrade to straight battlecannon russ's, no need to waste points on tank commanders.

My intent for the list was to keep as many of the models as he already had as possible.
Having two Tank Commanders give themselves (or each other) re-roll 1s whilst also re-rolling the number of shots they get is pretty good. And frees up Harker to live on the other side of the DZ with the castle.
If they're not dead by Turn 3 or 4, you can even have them zoom up the battlefield using their ObSec which has been known to win a few games in my meta.

Tank Commanders are infinitely better than regular Russes, especially Executioners.


You can safely ignore everyone saying to drop the heavy weapons

No-one is saying drop the Heavy weapons. If you look at the list I built, you'll find all of the Lascannons still in the list, with better ability to stay close to Harker whilst the rest of your army actually does things. Because it's Catachan. Infantry Squads don't stay still. That's how you play Catachans exactly wrong. Given how much the list resembles a list we've all seen before elsewhere, the intent of that list is to move forwards and take mid-field Objectives and flood the board by Turn 2.

Thanks to Heavy Weapon Teams being brokenly undercosted, you can still keep all the Heavy weapons you want. Except since they're not in Infantry Squads, they're more likely to stay in Cover (because there's only three models in the unit) and Orders are more efficient, and if your plan is to hang Harker in back where he belongs, having even more units around him isn't a bad thing, either. I even left the Sniper Rifles in the list - except now they have BS3. I'd rather use Ratlings. But I felt like I had to preserve models where I could.


melee hoard or not, you're still guard and sometimes you'll just need to make a castle and shoot

If the list didn't look exactly like other, 'similar' lists...Maybe. But that's not how the list operates, and that's not how the game is played (especially in the Maelstrom and ITC format). But, even if you did need something to hold your home Objectives...That's why the Spearhead exists with Harker, Officers and a Primaris Psyker in the middle of it. Whilst the rest of the army moves forwards. Because if you aren't swamping the mid-field, why are you playing Catachans, then? At best, take a look at your opponents list and see if you need to screen your Russes with 20 or so dudes - but hanging back is a choice, not something you have to do because your squad is saddled with a Lascannon and Sniper Rifle that take -1 to hit everytime you move, wasting your points.

Forum Explorer already said that he'd be better off playing the Spearhead as Cadians.
But again, my assumption is that playing Catachans is the point. That's why I've left the Spearhead as Catachans against my better judgement.

Catachans are not Guardsmen. They're Orks. Just in case I didn't make it clear enough, I've said it again.
Play them that way. Otherwise don't play Catachans.

[Renegade Paladin]

Also modeling ideas, other than just "Buy the kits and build them as instructed"? (Especially conversions for Harker and Straken.)

My Harker conversion is just a Catachan infantry sergeant with the heavy bolter from the Space Marine Scouts kit.

[LansXero]

Got a game this sunday, vs a friend who is running Alpha Legion. Bunch of cultists, backed by Havocs and a Daemon Prince or two.

How does this list look? I dont mean to tailor, but I would like to not be rolled either.


Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Dark Angels) [66 PL, 1322pts]

HQ

Ravenwing Talonmaster [9 PL, 188pts]: Shroud of Heroes
. Land Speeder: Twin assault cannon, Twin heavy bolter
. Talonmaster: Power sword
. Warlord: Brilliant Strategist

Sammael in Sableclaw [11 PL, 216pts]

Troops

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifles, 4x Intercessor
. Intercessor Sergeant: Bolt rifle

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifles, 4x Intercessor
. Intercessor Sergeant: Bolt rifle

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifles, 4x Intercessor
. Intercessor Sergeant: Bolt rifle

Fast Attack

Ravenwing Darkshroud [7 PL, 150pts]: Assault cannon

Heavy Support

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: 4x Hellblaster, Plasma incinerators
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: 4x Hellblaster, Plasma incinerators
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: 4x Hellblaster, Plasma incinerators
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Ministorum) [44 PL, 677pts]

HQ

Canoness [4 PL, 60pts]: Chainsword, Combi-plasma

Celestine [14 PL, 250pts]: Celestine, 2x Geminae Superia

Troops

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts]
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts]
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts]
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter

Elites

Imagifier [2 PL, 40pts]

Heavy Support

Retributor Squad [6 PL, 87pts]
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

Retributor Squad [6 PL, 87pts]
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

Total: [110 PL, 1999pts]



I could trade 1 of the Hellblaster units for another Darkshroud to spread the aura around, but I figure I get more firepower this way. I could cheese it by getting Leviathans loaned, but I rather keep the store FW free.

thoughts?

[Cheesegear]

How does this list look? I dont mean to tailor, but I would like to not be rolled either.

Too many Hellblasters...1x10 is way better due to Relics of the Dark Age.
Might even be worth dropping a unit for an <Ancient>. Pick your favourite version.
However it's always worth dropping Hellblasters for Devastators with Missiles/Lascannons.


Q.
As per the FAQs, Deployment is not a phase, therefore it is not part of a Turn/Round.
If Deployment is not part of a Round, can you gain as many CPs back as you...Can?

[JNAProductions]

Q.
As per the FAQs, Deployment is not a phase, therefore it is not part of a Turn/Round.
If Deployment is not part of a Round, can you gain as many CPs back as you...Can?

I'd say yes-regain as many CP as you want!

Also, while I appreciate the list critiques while sticking to the owned models... I don't actually own any of the guard models. :P

But, I am debating about possibly doing Tallarn instead of Catachan. Thoughts on making a good Tallarn list?

Also, does this unit seem fair?

Tank Commander Sharn Swiftstrike-HQ, 240 Points

M..........*
WS.......5+
BS........*
S..........8
T...........8
W.........12
A..........*
Ld........8
Sv........3+

Wounds Left........Move.......BS.........Attacks
7-12+...................14"...........2+..........4
4-6.......................10"...........3+..........3
1-3........................7"............4+..........2

Tank Commander Sharn Swiftstrike is a single model, piloting her faithful Leman Russ Windcutter. Windcutter is armed with a battle cannon, a heavy bolter, and bladed track guards.

Bladed Track Guards
Range......Melee
Type.........Melee
S..............+1
AP............-1
D..............2

Options
Same as Commander Pask.

Abilities

Grinding Advance
Smoke Launchers
Tank Orders
Senior Commander (Same as Knight Commander)
Emergency Plasma Vents
Explodes

Crushing Charge-Whenever Sharn Swiftstrike makes a successful charge or heroic intervention, she may add 2 to her hit rolls in the ensuing fight phase, and add d3 to the number of attacks made.

Keywords
Character, Vehicle, Leman Russ, Officer, Tank Commander, Sharn Swiftstrike

Faction Keywords
Imperium, Astra Militarum, Tallarn



Points cost...

177 is for Pask's base.
+20, for better move, attacks, and WS.
+20, for Bladed Track Guards.
+10 for Crushing Charge.

For 227 points. Let's call her 240, just to be safe. BEFORE equipment.

[LansXero]

I'd say yes-regain as many CP as you want!

Also, while I appreciate the list critiques while sticking to the owned models... I don't actually own any of the guard models. :P

But, I am debating about possibly doing Tallarn instead of Catachan. Thoughts on making a good Tallarn list?

Also, does this unit seem fair?

Tank Commander Sharn Swiftstrike-HQ, 240 Points

M..........*
WS.......5+
BS........*
S..........8
T...........8
W.........12
A..........*
Ld........8
Sv........3+

Wounds Left........Move.......BS.........Attacks
7-12+...................14"...........2+..........4
4-6.......................10"...........3+..........3
1-3........................7"............4+..........2

Tank Commander Sharn Swiftstrike is a single model, piloting her faithful Leman Russ Windcutter. Windcutter is armed with a battle cannon, a heavy bolter, and bladed track guards.

Bladed Track Guards
Range......Melee
Type.........Melee
S..............+1
AP............-1
D..............2

Options
Same as Commander Pask.

Abilities

Grinding Advance
Smoke Launchers
Tank Orders
Senior Commander (Same as Knight Commander)
Emergency Plasma Vents
Explodes

Crushing Charge-Whenever Sharn Swiftstrike makes a successful charge or heroic intervention, she may add 2 to her hit rolls in the ensuing fight phase, and add d3 to the number of attacks made.

Keywords
Character, Vehicle, Leman Russ, Officer, Tank Commander, Sharn Swiftstrike

Faction Keywords
Imperium, Astra Militarum, Tallarn



Points cost...

177 is for Pask's base.
+20, for better move, attacks, and WS.
+20, for Bladed Track Guards.
+10 for Crushing Charge.

For 227 points. Let's call her 240, just to be safe. BEFORE equipment.

IF you dont yet own any models, and IF your meta is choke full of knights, there is very little most knight lists can do against 3x Shadowswords, backed by a batallion of something with a lot of shots to clear screens.

Go Mordian if you are afraid they'll try and kick / punch your tanks to death, laugh when they die taking overwatch on a 4+ and blow up before they make their charge move, hopefully closer to their own models than yours.

[LeSwordfish]

I'd say yes-regain as many CP as you want!

Also, while I appreciate the list critiques while sticking to the owned models... I don't actually own any of the guard models. :P

But, I am debating about possibly doing Tallarn instead of Catachan. Thoughts on making a good Tallarn list?

Also, does this unit seem fair?

Tank Commander Sharn Swiftstrike-HQ, 240 Points

M..........*
WS.......5+
BS........*
S..........8
T...........8
W.........12
A..........*
Ld........8
Sv........3+

Wounds Left........Move.......BS.........Attacks
7-12+...................14"...........2+..........4
4-6.......................10"...........3+..........3
1-3........................7"............4+..........2

Tank Commander Sharn Swiftstrike is a single model, piloting her faithful Leman Russ Windcutter. Windcutter is armed with a battle cannon, a heavy bolter, and bladed track guards.

Bladed Track Guards
Range......Melee
Type.........Melee
S..............+1
AP............-1
D..............2

Options
Same as Commander Pask.

Abilities

Grinding Advance
Smoke Launchers
Tank Orders
Senior Commander (Same as Knight Commander)
Emergency Plasma Vents
Explodes

Crushing Charge-Whenever Sharn Swiftstrike makes a successful charge or heroic intervention, she may add 2 to her hit rolls in the ensuing fight phase, and add d3 to the number of attacks made.

Keywords
Character, Vehicle, Leman Russ, Officer, Tank Commander, Sharn Swiftstrike

Faction Keywords
Imperium, Astra Militarum, Tallarn



Points cost...

177 is for Pask's base.
+20, for better move, attacks, and WS.
+20, for Bladed Track Guards.
+10 for Crushing Charge.

For 227 points. Let's call her 240, just to be safe. BEFORE equipment.

Fair, definitely, though probably a little underpowered. Fifty points for a handful of str9 ap-1hits is "fair" but I wouldn't run her myself.

[Cheesegear]

Also, while I appreciate the list critiques while sticking to the owned models... I don't actually own any of the guard models. :P

If you don't own any models, then what are you trying to do?

Oh...


But, I am debating about possibly doing Tallarn instead of Catachan. Thoughts on making a good Tallarn list?

The main issue with Tallarn is that with Reserve-heavy armies getting hit twice this year, their main schtick - Ambush - no longer works right. And, in the intervening time, we've also had Armiger Warglaives come into the mix, doing the same thing that Tallarn does, except with Armigers. The other thing that 'on paper' analysis never takes into account is that Ambush has two qualifiers; Wholly within 7" from a board edge, and 9" away from enemy models. It's just not that easy, and it's the same reason that Space Wolves didn't automatically become good in Chapter Approved '17 with Cunning of the Wolf, and why Wolf Scouts have never been a good unit. It looks good. But it doesn't work.
Again, once you factor in that Reserves have been nerfed twice in the six months, it looks even worse.

What's their Relic? ...Some lame Tiger Claw.
What's their Warlord Trait? ...Oh no.

And that's where we come to Doctrines.

Tallarns can Advance and Shoot with any weapon, without modifiers (except Heavy weapons). So...They're faster Catachans. But they lack the S4 in Melee, have lower Leadership, and don't have Straken. Using the exact same models (minus Straken, of course), you'd end up with a fast, shooty army. Except your 'shooty' units are Lasguns. Not Metalica Vanguard unloading Plasma Calivers into peoples' faces. But, Guard are cheaper than AdMech, which, as we all know, is a quality unto itself.

So, mobile units on foot, preferably spamming Special Weapons... I still don't understand why you took Lascannons in your Infantry Squads whilst not being Cadian. The major problem is that 'Guard with Special Weapons' are just Scions. And Tallarns are worse than Scions by a lot.

Vehicles can move and shoot Heavy weapons without penalty. Well, Leman Russes don't move at all, unless they're Tank Commanders that have survived until Turn 4+. None of the 'Artillery' tanks will ever move anyway. So the reason to run Tallarn Vehicles is for...Sentinels (Ew) and Tauroxes. The latter is a fine Vehicle. But they also aren't Taurox Primes, which are limited to Scions only.

When you Advance with a <Titanic>, have Assault weapons, instead. I'll give you one guess how I feel about BS5 Titanics. However, your Infantry can Advance without penalty. Some of your Titanics are also Transports (e.g; Stormlord). 10+D6" has a decent chance of getting you into Rapid Fire range on a whole bunch of weapons, and <12" is also the proc range for less negs to hit based on 12". So your Tallarn list almost definitely wants to revolve around an Advancing Stormlord +/- Crush Them!. However, remember that this is the Guard Codex, and Super-Heavies in SHADs don't get Regiment Doctrines. Which means that you'll need to run three Super-Heavies if you want to run any...Or just roll with a Supreme Command.

[JNAProductions]

Fair, definitely, though probably a little underpowered. Fifty points for a handful of str9 ap-1hits is "fair" but I wouldn't run her myself.

I'd rather point a custom unit too high and need to drop it after playtesting than do it too low and be cheesy.

[druid91]

So. The lgs does these 15 power apocalypse games. Where two side fight, with Chaos and Xenos vs Imperium. Each player brings the aforementioned 15 power...

Would this be an utterly terrible little setup for this?

1x Company Commander
2x Infantry Squads.
1x Basilisk.

[Renegade Paladin]

15 Power per player in Apocalypse? How many players do you have? :smalleek:

[druid91]

15 Power per player in Apocalypse? How many players do you have? :smalleek:

It was like 30-40 last time?

[Renegade Paladin]

So... like 225-300 Power per side? That's not Apocalypse, that's just a large game with an unnecessary amount of players. :smalltongue: I organize Apocalypse games here (this year's is next month) and allow 300 per player, 200 each if we get more than ten.

[druid91]

So... like 225-300 Power per side? That's not Apocalypse, that's just a large game with an unnecessary amount of players. :smalltongue: I organize Apocalypse games here (this year's is next month) and allow 300 per player, 200 each if we get more than ten.

Huh. Anyway, the idea behind the Basilisk is last time we ended up with the scenario where we had this massive multi-table long battlefield and things pretty much wrapped up on our end pretty quickly but moving our guys down towards the other tables wasn't feasible.

So having something with a ludicrously long range might allow us to artillery fire the heck out of people on the other side.

[LeSwordfish]

My Kasr Lutien Hounds (Imperial Guard armored company) won against a Dark Eldar list today, by the narrowest possible margin - 13 points to 12 on the final turn, with only two badly damaged tanks remaining. It was Tactical Escalation and I was lucky with my chosen "priority", scoring two points on turn one for blowing away a raider (which may be literally the first kill by my vanquisher), plus the wave of jetbikes that my opponent was hoping to multi-charge half my line with. My opponent rallied incredibly well though, using a trio of flyers and two characters to wipe away most of my tanks bit by bit. Scourges with haywire blasters are absolutely terrifying - two units of five crippled a tank per turn. I should have taken them more seriously earlier - I was tasked with destroying a Flying unit, and thanks to poor luck it took most of my army to take six wounds off a Voidraven: what I should have done was just kill the scourges. In the end, though, my Vanquisher sat on one objective, scoring a "Defend" card against a charging Archon, and my Chimera was the slightest bit within 6" of the centre of the board to block Area Denial.

[Cheesegear]

Pretty pissed off that the pricing for all the Kill Team Commanders are identical. :smallmad:

I'm glad I gave up on Kill Team last week.
Kill Team was good because it was new, trying to work out the system.
Then FAQ Errata 2 happened, and now 40K is a new(ish) game so our meta just went back.

Our Blackshirt is angry because the 'Organised Play' stuff for Kill Team which was supposed to last 3 months, lasted 3 weeks for us.
Which is basically what I told him would happen.
Should've been run like a tournament.
Set up a Kill Team day. Games only take 15-20 minutes (less, even, most times). Have 3-4 games in an hour. You'll have all 12 games done in 3-4 hours. Add lunch. That's 5. Add in extra time just in case. Then add in another hour so people can figure out their new lists every time someone levels up and they want to keep the Levelled model.

12 games of Kill Team in a single day is extremely easy. Especially if your meta is...Good. And especially if you have knockouts if/when people hit 0. It's also good for campaigns because you'd have so many witnesses to see people's casualty rolls.

Or...You can **** it up. Try an keep people 'hyped' for months after release, whilst also holding a 12-week long event, whilst also releasing Expansion content that completely breaks the game in the middle, that only some people will be able to have access to on the day of release because that's how finances work.

[9mm]

Or...You can **** it up. Try an keep people 'hyped' for months after release, whilst also holding a 12-week long event, whilst also releasing Expansion content that completely breaks the game in the middle, that only some people will be able to have access to on the day of release because that's how finances work.

Actually the timing tells me we have at least 1 more expansion for Kill team coming. For most stores, this is week four, so as you get new cards for the second round commanders drop. Campaign another 4 weeks, unknown 3rd expansion drops, another 4 weeks, and if you've done it right you now have a set time, each week, for people to come to the store and play kill team. establishing "Tuesday night kill team" is the ultimate goal of this kind of event; will it work? depends on the group, store, and playerbase.

[JNAProductions]

Nurgle Daemons Brigade. How feasible?

I'm okay with 102 points spent on Beasts-I don't expect them to do a ton other than sit backfield on objectives, but they're good at that. But Heavy Support?

[Blackhawk748]

Nurgle Daemons Brigade. How feasible?

I'm okay with 102 points spent on Beasts-I don't expect them to do a ton other than sit backfield on objectives, but they're good at that. But Heavy Support?

Is there a Chaos tag? Because if there is you could grab some CSM tanks

Otherwise, Soul Grinders are a thing

[JNAProductions]

Is there a Chaos tag? Because if there is you could grab some CSM tanks

Battle Brothers rule.

But I am debating about saying "Screw the Locus" and adding Plagueburst Crawlers, which have the Nurgle faction. But then I lose the strats...

Edit: I know Soul Grinders exist. But I want a good list.

Edit II:

Nurgle Brigade

HQs
100-Epidemius
70-Poxbringer with Virulent Blessing
75-Spoilpox Scrivener with Corruption
245

Troops
235-30 Plaguebearers with Icon, Instrument
235-30 Plaguebearers with Icon, Instrument
54-3 Nurglings
54-3 Nurglings
54-3 Nurglings
54-3 Nurglings
686

Elites
34-Beast of Nurgle
34-Beast of Nurgle
34-Beast of Nurgle
102

Fast Attacks
127-3 Plague Drones with Icon, Instrument
127-3 Plague Drones with Icon, Instrument
127-3 Plague Drones with Icon, Instrument
381

Heavy Supports
156-Plagueburst Crawler with Plagueburst Mortar, two Entropy Cannons, Heavy Slugger
156-Plagueburst Crawler with Plagueburst Mortar, two Entropy Cannons, Heavy Slugger
156-Plagueburst Crawler with Plagueburst Mortar, two Entropy Cannons, Heavy Slugger
468

Total Points
1,862

Nurgle Daemons Patrol

HQ
60-Sloppity Bilepiper
60

Troop
54-3 Nurglings
54

Total points
114

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1,976 points. Not sure what else to take, honestly, with the last 24 points. Maybe upgrade the Patrol Nurglings to 4 models?

I do want the Nurglings in a Patrol, so they have ObSec. But I'm not sure who to stick HQ-wise in the Patrol. Not Epidemius, but who would be best with the Locus?

[Cheesegear]

Nurgle Daemons Brigade. How feasible?


But I want a good list.

Good lists don't really come out of the Daemons' book. The division of the four Gods made a whole bunch of stuff effectively unusable because not every God has something good in every slot, and Battalions and Brigades are even worse, because every Troops except Horrors is terrible. Chaos Daemons is the <Chaos> equivalent of Adeptus Custodes. You can cherry pick a few units out of the book and slot them into pretty much any Chaos army you want (e.g; Exalted Flamers, Skull Cannons). But if Daemons are going to be your primary source of units in your army, you're going to be in for a bad time unless you exclusively pick out only the best units...That honour pretty much only belongs to Tzeentch...See the aforementioned bit about Horrors.

I'd avoid Nurgle Daemons like the...Umm...Plague. Death Guard is where it's at. You'd even get access to the cheaper Starter stuff.

But then again, something is happening with Slaanesh.

[LeSwordfish]

The Deathwatch rulebook says that one in five intercessors can have an auxillary grenade launcher. Does that include Intercessors who've been upgraded to sargeants?

[Cheesegear]

The Deathwatch rulebook says that one in five intercessors can have an auxillary grenade launcher. Does that include Intercessors who've been upgraded to sargeants?

Did you check the FAQ? :smallwink:

[LeSwordfish]

Did you check the FAQ? :smallwink:

Well clearly I did not :smalltongue:

[LansXero]

Just got my list, and no Codex O_O. Whats wrong with GW?

Also, 150$ for SpeedFreaks is way too high imho. I guess its my own missconception after how cost-friendly the 8th launch products were; everything GW puts out these days (tooh & claw, titanicus...) feels overpriced. Although, Renegade was great.

[Brookshw]

Also, 150$ for SpeedFreaks is way too high imho. I guess its my own missconception after how cost-friendly the 8th launch products were; everything GW puts out these days (tooh & claw, titanicus...) feels overpriced. Although, Renegade was great.

Eh, seems standard. If bought individually we'd be looking at about $90 for the bikes. Assuming the buggies are going to be roughly $50 a pop it looks we're about right for the standard box set discount.

Not sure I really like the race car feel of them......