Race war thread (VERY serious thread)

[16bearswutIdo]

Let's say we take 10 of each PHB race, equip them with appropriate racial weapons, drop them into a 200x200 room with no exits, and tell them to fight it out. Who walks away the winner?

Rules:
-Each race gets 2 thematically appropriate spellcasters (divine and arcane), the rest are thematically appropriate martials (ie. no Half-Orc Wizards or rogues, but half-orc barbarians are a-ok)
-Assume every mob is the same level, which can be any level you want for the thought exercise
-Small races are allowed to bite ankles
-Paladins of an appropriate level are given a racially appropriate mount

My money's on the half-orcs or the halflings. The half-orcs would just ubercharge everyone, while the halflings would just hide until there's only one other race and then come out stabbing.

[gooddragon1]

Let's say we take 10 of each PHB race, equip them with appropriate racial weapons, drop them into a 200x200 room with no exits, and tell them to fight it out. Who walks away the winner?

Rules:
-Each race gets 1 thematically appropriate spellcaster, the rest are thematically appropriate martials (ie. no Half-Orc Wizards or rogues, but half-orc barbarians are a-ok)
-Assume every mob is the same level, which can be any level you want for the thought exercise
-Small races are allowed to bite ankles
-Paladins of an appropriate level are given a racially appropriate mount

Just my opinions:
+higher levels even out the difference between races, I'd go with level one.
+in the case of level one I'd say the half orcs take it, but I'm not sure. Depends on who attacks what and how.

[Jowgen]

I'm gonna go with the Halflings.

First we have their the size and racial dex bonus to AC, plus Luck bonus to saves, giving an edge in surviveability.

Then their favored class is rogue, which is very suited to a big free for all battle. The melee ones will be able to flank and hit easily (again size bonus, plus finesse weapons might be in play). Even better, the ranged one's have the advantage of being able to use Skiprocks for 2for1 hits, to which they have not only size and dex bonuses to hit, but a racial bonus for thrown weapon attacks as well. The lower the level everyone is at, the more their higher AC, better saves and those d6 of SA damage will make a difference.

The Half-Orcs will probably have a stronger start as they charge and murder casters/elves, but they are obvious targets, especially to the elves because racism. In contrast, halflings get better as combat drags on, as the piles of corpses allow them to hide and sneak attack from hiding.

[Psyren]

Wouldn't elves automatically get wizards and just win? What level are we talking about here? I'm assuming any optimization is on the table since Uberchargers are being mentioned? There's a lot of unspecified variables here is what I'm saying.

[Goaty14]

I'm casting my vote in for "humans", because everybody knows that humans can do no wrong.


Wouldn't elves automatically get wizards and just win?


-Each race gets 2 thematically appropriate spellcasters (divine and arcane), the rest are thematically appropriate martials

[Nifft]

Let's say we take 10 of each PHB race, equip them with appropriate racial weapons, drop them into a 200x200 room with no exits, and tell them to fight it out. Who walks away the winner?

Half-Elves stack their Diplomacy bonus via Aid Another, organize all the race groups into a cohesive single army, and lead a jail-break escaping the dungeon.

[Psyren]

I'm casting my vote in for "humans", because everybody knows that humans can do no wrong.

*quotes*

Yes, exactly. Wizards are pretty clearly "thematically appropriate" for elves given that it's their favored class.

[Silva Stormrage]

Yes, exactly. Wizards are pretty clearly "thematically appropriate" for elves given that it's their favored class.

Thematically approved martial classes. I don't think Wizards are a martial class

[Psyren]

Thematically approved martial classes. I don't think Wizards are a martial class


Each race gets 2 thematically appropriate spellcasters

I'm starting to get thoroughly confused now. Are you saying that because there's only 2 spellcasters there won't be a balance issue between the races?

[AnimeTheCat]

Thematically approved martial classes. I don't think Wizards are a martial class

I think the point is 2 wizards will unequivocally trump no wizards. The only other race I feel thematically could fit a wizard is gnome, but they would likely be bards as that's their favored class.

I am putting my vote in for humans as well. Thematically appropriate spellcaster: any. Thematically appropriate martial: any. Mixed unit tactics anyone?

[Silva Stormrage]

I'm starting to get thoroughly confused now. Are you saying that because there's only 2 spellcasters there won't be a balance issue between the races?

Ah my apologies I misunderstood. I was under the assumption everyone was level 1. I misread the OP. At level 1 2 level 1 wizards is not enough to unbalance everything so I misunderstood what you were saying.

[Kish]

-Each race gets 2 thematically appropriate spellcasters (divine and arcane), the rest are thematically appropriate martials (ie. no Half-Orc Wizards or rogues, but half-orc barbarians are a-ok)
I suggest rephrasing this.

That is:

Do you mean elves have two wizards and eight rangers (because wizards are more thematically appropriate for elves than clerics and rangers are more thematically appropriate for elves than other "martials")?
Do you mean elves have two wizards and eight fighters, barbarians, or monks (because rangers and paladins can cast spells)?
Do you mean everyone has one wizard, one cleric, and the rest of their characters are barbarians, fighters, or monks (suggest being more specific about what you mean than saying "martials", too)?
What spellcasters can half-orcs have, with wizards explicitly disallowed?
Do the half-orcs automatically and nonoptionally have eight barbarians?
Do the halflings automatically and nonoptionally have eight rogues and no one with full BAB?
Etc.

[Eldariel]

Well. Level is kind of a huge deal. Also exact compositions: Humans can get whatever for instance so who's to say what? Do Dwarves just have two Clerics or a Cleric and a Wizard/Sorcerer/Bard/whatever-an-"appropriate"-dwarf-arcane-would-be? Halfling spellcasters are what? Elves are a Wizard and a Druid probably but what about their martials? Rangers or are they stuck with Fighters? And what about the other genericish races in Half-Elves and Half-Orcs? Clearly Gnomes should get two Illusionists but...what exactly would be the appropriate melee class and divine class for them? Hell, do Rangers and Paladins even count as martials? They get casting.

[ComaVision]

I gotta go with humans for the race war. I mean, we get whipped into a fervor killing our own, let alone actually different races.

But really, as someone else said, we can build whatever team is ideal with humans and it's still thematically appropriate. I don't think +1 AC or +1 atk/damage is going to beat that advantage.

EDIT:

Ah my apologies I misunderstood. I was under the assumption everyone was level 1. I misread the OP. At level 1 2 level 1 wizards is not enough to unbalance everything so I misunderstood what you were saying.

2xSleep per round > move and attack

[Falontani]

I suggest 5 different wars, level 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20.
Humans are the wild card, they can use two spellcasters (I am going to say that only full spellcasters and bards count as spellcasters)

Elves have many different subraces, and I believe fighter and even barbarian is among their favored classes. If all elves are playing as one army then their spellcasters are a wizard and a druid. Thematic wise they are very diverse, specially if you count different settings. My setting preference is Eberron, where your subrace doesn't matter as much as your nationality. In eberron we swap out druid for a cleric, and we get some paladins, barbarians, rangers, and rogues. You can even throw warblade in with them due to the racial prestige class: Eternal Blade.

Dwarven theme stays relatively static, so they most likely get either two clerics or a druid and a cleric for their spellcasters. They are also highly a warrior race, so we get the full selection, barbarians, crusaders, fighters, and perhaps more. Their racial prestige classes doesn't really open up more classes unless you count eberron's Dragonmarked, which has silver key, opening up rogue for the dwarves.

Gnomes are gnomes. We can grab two illusionist wizards, but more than likely we have: bard, illusionist wizard, and beguiler for their spellcasters. But that is three spellcasters (they are a spellcasting race) so we will drop beguiler this time. For their martial options they don't have a lot of fluff, however they are apparently giant slayers. Since they are small they will get fighter, ranger, and rogue, with factotums.

Half elves are a blend of elf and human, so their options are 50% the same as elf, and then what fits for the other half.

Half orcs are the war race... Except in eberron. In eberron they land solidly in fighter, druid, warblade, barbarian, and perhaps monk. So they have druid spellcasters.

Halflings, they are truly a powerful race. In eberron they run the gambit of diversity. I can see dinosaur riding rangers, fighters, and barbarians. I can see infantry, I can see rogues, and they even get the healers. So for an eberron run I give them a healer and a druid for their spellcasters, and they get rangers, barbarians, fighters, rogues, and totemist.

There are many more races in this fight, including warforged (the obvious winners) and changelings (close behind, probably winning against even human and halfling)

We should also include orcs, goblins, incarnum races, deep races, goliath, and every other race printed in the races books, etc.

[ATHATH]

Can we choose which feats our combatants get?

Could a human army take the Mark of Passage and Hidden Talent feats to summon a tidal wave of horses (whether or not they can fight for you is debatable, however; if they can't, you might want to pick up a psicrystal instead) and fire at (or debuff) enemies with psionic blasting powers?

[Jowgen]

In addendum to my vote for Halflings, I think another point in their favour is that at least one of their 2 casters would be a bard. Maybe both. Adding a modicum of inspire courage optimisation atop the sneak-attack skiprocks will just have the halfings out-dpr everyone by a mile up until at least mid levels.

They were already ahead at level 1. At level 3 they start to make short work of everyone. Level 6-9 their damage goes even higher, though that is when the full casters start really coming into play. Level 9+ it's really just a casters game that doesn't really care much for the race element anymore, so I don't think that's the best metric to go by, although the Halfinglings will very much just be super stealthy damage powerhouses by then. With the added bonus of having access to cool martial PrCs like Whisperknife and Halfing Outrider that synergize real well with all of this too.

Also, as Falontani points out, if setting/racial variants are in play, Halflings get an even greater edge. Strongheart halflings become a thing, basically upgrading all martials with a bonus feat (and making Humans basically irrelevant), not to mention one of our Bards can now be a ghostwise halfing that can enter mindbender thanks to their racial telepathy, giving the Halfings perfect enemy detection and realtime tactical communication.

Point is, if race is to be the main factor in a racial battle royale like this, I maintian that Halfings win hands down at all levels were race is still of importance.

[Silly Name]

Elves get a Wizard and a Druid, everyone else is a Ranger or a Scout. The higher the level, the better the casters get and probably wreck havoc on everyone else.

Dwarves would put up a good fight, though, since they probably get a Cleric (no idea what their Arcane caster could be, though. Maybe a Warmage?).

[flappeercraft]

I would say elves, they get two wizards and for their martials get martial wizards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard)

[Knaight]

The title of this thread seems like something that could maybe have stood to have a little more thought put into it regarding connotations. Just saying.

[Menzath]

This is a tough one, cause it is a 200x200 room. The biggest questions I have are, a) how far spaced is each group from each other, b) what races are adjacent to each other. If the elves are next to dwaves and gnomes, I think the elves would dominate the overall matchup. If elves are next to either halflings of half orcs, it could get messy if either of those out intiative them.
The elves not only get two wizards, but it doesn't matter what martials they have since they all are proficient with and have long bows, even the wizards. And with that dex bonus they're entire group is setup to out range everyone else off the bat.

Also since this looks to be a phb race setup match I am not sure if skiprocks would be available. If so, that opens an interesting can of worms for the other off racial weapons.

[Jowgen]

Also since this looks to be a phb race setup match I am not sure if skiprocks would be available. If so, that opens an interesting can of worms for the other off racial weapons.

I've been raising the Halfling banner under the assumption that the "Races of X" Splatbooks are fair game for this race war. It's kinda hard to get more racially appropriate than those and they fit the theme perfectly without being setting specific.

Also, you raise some good points regarding Elves. They are squishier than halflings but do have a rather respectable stack of race specific options and cool variant races of their own, and your point regarding range is interesting. If the level is high enough for the elves to be able to do some decent archery optimisation, they'll probably be able to get some respectable dpr of their own, although I don't think it quite compares to thrower halfings with all their cool stuff.

So I'd place Elves as my runner up, with higher levels closing the gap enough that if they get lucky on initiative and such, they might actually win despite the Halfling advantage.

[Menzath]

So I'd place Elves as my runner up, with higher levels closing the gap enough that if they get lucky on initiative and such, they might actually win despite the Halfling advantage.

Yeah, at higher levels it does even out, at low levels that con hit makes elves pretty darn squish, the only saving Grace is immunity to sleep. That's why I was wondering so much on placement.
If the elves have enough distance between them and the h.orcs and halflings they would sleep the groups near them and focus fire on the other groups most likely.
If the range is nil... It comes down to who wins init. Freaking scary ankle biters.

[gooddragon1]

Yeah, at higher levels it does even out, at low levels that con hit makes elves pretty darn squish, the only saving Grace is immunity to sleep. That's why I was wondering so much on placement.
If the elves have enough distance between them and the h.orcs and halflings they would sleep the groups near them and focus fire on the other groups most likely.
If the range is nil... It comes down to who wins init. Freaking scary ankle biters.

+1 base will from wisdom, +2 rage, +2 if iron will taken vs dc 15 of 18 int and 1st level spell makes it on a 10. Possible to boost dc but not by much for the sleep spell. The fight can go any number of ways, but I feel like the dorcs do have a chance. At least at 1st level, at higher levels (even like 5th maybe) well played wizards probably sweep. Doubly so with splat. Solo maybe if tippy or similar is playing them.

Edit: just noticed, normal noise doesn't awaken the sleeper. A battle is a -10 dc check. You can make listen checks at -10 if asleep to wake up. They make it on a 1 unless the wizards save it until things quiet down. Depends on the agreed definition of normal in this case though.

[Mechalich]

This question, like most D&D related questions, only has a meaningful answer in a tightly constrained level range.

At level 1, the RNG rules all and the outcome is simply going to be whichever side roles the best.

At level 10, class features have utterly overwhelmed racial traits and the only question is which group has the most effective combination of classes.

So only at level 5 can we look for a meaningful solution.

[TheBrassDuke]

Let's say we take 10 of each PHB race, equip them with appropriate racial weapons, drop them into a 200x200 room with no exits, and tell them to fight it out. Who walks away the winner?

Rules:
-Each race gets 2 thematically appropriate spellcasters (divine and arcane), the rest are thematically appropriate martials (ie. no Half-Orc Wizards or rogues, but half-orc barbarians are a-ok)
-Assume every mob is the same level, which can be any level you want for the thought exercise
-Small races are allowed to bite ankles
-Paladins of an appropriate level are given a racially appropriate mount

My money's on the half-orcs or the halflings. The half-orcs would just ubercharge everyone, while the halflings would just hide until there's only one other race and then come out stabbing.

The Half-Elf Wizards who can qualify for Elf-related feats, and their enhanced allies.

Their Fighters and barbarians would dominate the fields and I’m sure their clerics and other classes would be a big plus. But really, the Half-Elves. Or the Elves. Because that one Wizard will destroy everyone.