Changing Up My Turns

[DragonBaneDM]

Hi gang!

So I’m playing a Warforged Barb 5/Rogue 1+ right now, and I really like the character.

I’ve been a little bored on my turns though. In a game that can get bogged down, I pride myself on going “Main hand attack 1: hit! X damage plus Y from sneak attack, attack 2, offhand, aaaaaaand pass!” or something like that.

It makes my turns go fast, it makes combat go quick, it makes me feel effective and good at my role.

It makes me bored as crap.

I know I’ve got the Athletics expertise to be a great grappler, and the few times I’ve used it to wrest away an object (after checking with my dm to see if it was okay) I’ve had a blast, but it always feels more “right” to swing three times and ship the turn.

Playground, how can I change up my playstyle to have more fun at my table and feel like an action hero again?

[Expected]

Unfortunately, you don't have much you can do besides grapple or attack since you don't have spellcasting. I suggest getting creative and describing your attacks or asking the DM if you can aim for a specific location on the enemy (e.g. the arms or legs), thus disabling them somehow.

[ad_hoc]

If combat isn't exhilarating and tense then it needs to be harder.

[Man_Over_Game]

Grapple + Prone relationship, now you have advantage on every hit, have disadvantage to be struck, and the enemy can't do anything about that until they break your (Athletics + Advantage) with an action.

Get another level into Rogue. Use bonus action Dash to get enough movement to grab onto another guy and shove him with a kick to his knees. Now you have two guys who are prone/grappled and can't do anything. Feel free to dash around the battlefield with your two new best friends. Maybe you drop them off a cliff? Maybe you let your Wizard have a turn at giving him a noogie? Maybe someone has Sunbeam and you want to show your friends the power of 1000 suns?

You would have some stupidly high athletics and the possibility of Dashing/attacking in the same turn. You could ask your DM what the mechanical benefits would be of a 40 foot running jump strike.

You'd also have a really solid climb speed, so you could ask your DM about what his rules would be about climbing on walls at super speed, like a monkey.

Rogue + Barbarian has a lot of potential for versatile mobility. Capitalize on that.

Also, just read up on the Rogue Scout. Nothing in there requires ranged attacks, so you could grab it and be a VERY mobile barbarian.


If combat isn't exhilarating and tense then it needs to be harder.

Truth be told, combat can still be tense while a player is bored. Risk of death doesn't equal fun. Challenge can be fun, but challenge implies there can be mistakes made, and things to learn or do better. You can see whether or not you are good enough in a challenge, but sometimes the best you can do as a Barbarian/Rogue is just Attack, and if that's every single turn, that's not a Challenge, regardless of how dangerous the enemy is. It's no longer up to you whether you live or die at that point, it comes down to math and dice, and neither are the heart of DnD.

[Expected]

With your expertise in Athletics and your level in Rogue, I would use a rapier and shield and get the Shield Master feat--it allows you to use a bonus action to shove an enemy using your shield and knock it prone if it is large or smaller. It uses Athletics, so it'd be perfect for you. Alternatively, you could switch to a polearm or greataxe/greatsword (both have the Heavy, Two-Handed property) and get PAM (for polearms) and GWM.

[Keravath]

Encourage everyone else to go a bit quicker? :)

The problem you are citing has a lot more to do with the player and the table than with the character from what I can tell. I play AL and I too like to be efficient. I have usually worked out what I want to do and I've been watching others roll so by the time it comes to me I can usually just roll my dice and a quick glance will tell me whether I hit, miss or whether the roll was close and I have to ask the DM.

I also tend to roll all the dice at once ... to hit, damage, and sneak attack dice ... so if the dice rolls are easy I can just read off the numbers. The shape changed druid/barbarian in the group with reckless and three attacks often does the same. Colour coordinated dice, rolls the three attacks at once and reads off the results. If a target goes down he just shifts the rest of the attacks to the next target. In this particular group everyone does something similar so usually even with a group of seven the turns go by quite quickly.


The slow tables will have one or more people who prefer to play differently. They take a bit to decide who to attack. They roll one d20, ask the DM if it hits, roll damage ... roll a second d20 if they have another attack, ask the DM if it hits, rolls damage for the second attack. Looks at the board and tries to decide where to move for the next 20 seconds or so. Moves, decides to try a bonus action to hide (or should I dash?) ... rolls a d20 ... asks the DM if they succeed in hiding. (This is just anecdotal .. play styles vary a lot and some players don't think about their turn in advance or employ any efficiencies when trying to take their turn and it makes the round take MUCH MUCH longer).

I usually find that the latter is the greatest source of boredom and there isn't anything you can do about it except try to help them out a bit (which also alleviates boredom).

I find the best way for me to handle this is to pay more attention to the interaction. Sometimes suggest a good course of action or a move if the other player doesn't seem to mind. Maybe suggest to the group as a whole to focus fire or help with target selection. Depending on the player, I might mention how it is quicker to roll the to hit and damage dice at the same time ... and it is more fun to roll more dice at the same time.

Unfortunately, artificially making your turn take longer or trying to make your turn sound more cool isn't usually a good way to remedy boredom since it isn't usually your turn causing the problem.

[Laserlight]

Hi gang!
Playground, how can I change up my playstyle to have more fun at my table and feel like an action hero again?

One of my favorite characters (Champions / HERO System) was explicitly designed to be able to mow through mooks but unable to hurt high-defense baddies. It forced me to get creative.

So if you couldn't stick someone with your sword, what would you do? Pick up a table and shove the baddies into a corner, pull down a tapestry over them, swat one with a bench, drain that mugful of ale, kiss the beautiful princess (difficult for a warforged, and she probably won't appreciate it, but make the effort), push over the statue onto them (the baddies, not the princess), slide down the stairs, throw someone into a well, roll a barrel, et cetera.

If your DM typically gives you a bare room with no set dressing, tell him what you're trying to do and ask him if it's okay to play it as "I pull the tapestry over these guys" when he hasn't specifically mentioned a tapestry. If you're playing on a grid, get or make some bits (Mantic Terrain Crate, for example, or wooden pieces from the craft store eg 12mm cubes for chairs) and set them out.

[McSkrag]

I can see where the simplicity of the build is effective but getting repetitive.

Try taking 3+ levels of Fighter. Battlemaster superiority dice and maneuvers would be super effective and give a lot more options and strategies on your turn.

[DragonBaneDM]

Thanks for hearing me out and the good-good responses, my dudes! This has been solid advice the whole way through and I'm already feeling more at ease.


Unfortunately, you don't have much you can do besides grapple or attack since you don't have spellcasting. I suggest getting creative and describing your attacks or asking the DM if you can aim for a specific location on the enemy (e.g. the arms or legs), thus disabling them somehow.

You and Laser both gave solid advice on "dressing up" my turns! If it's not a fight where I feel like I have to go "Maximum DPR Effort" I think a lot more working with the scenery and trying to stay in character while describing/roleplaying my actions.


Grapple + Prone relationship, now you have advantage on every hit, have disadvantage to be struck, and the enemy can't do anything about that until they break your (Athletics + Advantage) with an action.

Get another level into Rogue. Use bonus action Dash to get enough movement to grab onto another guy and shove him with a kick to his knees. Now you have two guys who are prone/grappled and can't do anything. Feel free to dash around the battlefield with your two new best friends. Maybe you drop them off a cliff? Maybe you let your Wizard have a turn at giving him a noogie? Maybe someone has Sunbeam and you want to show your friends the power of 1000 suns?

You would have some stupidly high athletics and the possibility of Dashing/attacking in the same turn. You could ask your DM what the mechanical benefits would be of a 40 foot running jump strike.



Okay! I can knock prone and grapple in the same turn now, I actually was forgetting that, thank you! I'd trade off both my attacks, but heck, prone and not being able to stand up is a GOOD effect.


Truth be told, combat can still be tense while a player is bored. Risk of death doesn't equal fun. Challenge can be fun, but challenge implies there can be mistakes made, and things to learn or do better. You can see whether or not you are good enough in a challenge, but sometimes the best you can do as a Barbarian/Rogue is just Attack, and if that's every single turn, that's not a Challenge, regardless of how dangerous the enemy is. It's no longer up to you whether you live or die at that point, it comes down to math and dice, and neither are the heart of DnD.

So I'm kind of in this train of thought as well. If the fight's tough, I'm happy to go B's to the W trying to pump out as many attacks as possible. It's fights where I can see the writing on the walls well before initiative is rolled that I'm feeling murky about. Our DM challenges us plenty, but he also likes throwing in a Medium or Easy encounter once in a while, which totally makes sense!


Encourage everyone else to go a bit quicker? :)

-Awesome advice, just maybe not for my online game! Snipped for formatting-

I find the best way for me to handle this is to pay more attention to the interaction. Sometimes suggest a good course of action or a move if the other player doesn't seem to mind. Maybe suggest to the group as a whole to focus fire or help with target selection. Depending on the player, I might mention how it is quicker to roll the to hit and damage dice at the same time ... and it is more fun to roll more dice at the same time.

Unfortunately, artificially making your turn take longer or trying to make your turn sound more cool isn't usually a good way to remedy boredom since it isn't usually your turn causing the problem.

We play online, so besides the warlock never getting his spell DC to display from roll20 accurately, there's not too much griping about math or addition going on.

I do a pretty good job suggesting tactics, I can try to play that up a bit more. I'm already "team captain" for fights, so I've been trying to do the opposite as we've moved into the new tier, but if I can RP it, it'd be a good way to remind everyone "Hey! I did a war! That's a huge part of my character!" while also just playing the friggin game more.

Also yeah! I think the gameplan is to roleplay my attacks as quickly as I take my turn. That'll give me a challenge every initiative pass, and it's going to help me to feel way more engaged.


I can see where the simplicity of the build is effective but getting repetitive.

Try taking 3+ levels of Fighter. Battlemaster superiority dice and maneuvers would be super effective and give a lot more options and strategies on your turn.

There's actually a bit of a houserule in my way! Our DM has put up a 2 class limit for multiclassing, since he's worried about the powergamer (me!) outshining the more casual folks. I did talk him into Fighter, eventually! We've agreed my Fighter levels are going to be the last levels I take. I was originally going to do 2 for Action Surge, but maybe I should go 3? It costs me an ASI from Rogue progression, which is my only hesitation. What would the rest of you suggest?

(I know that seems kinda controlly, but I'm seriously cool with it. Action Surge is really good, on any character! I'm okay with having it as a capstone.)


With your expertise in Athletics and your level in Rogue, I would use a rapier and shield and get the Shield Master feat--it allows you to use a bonus action to shove an enemy using your shield and knock it prone if it is large or smaller. It uses Athletics, so it'd be perfect for you. Alternatively, you could switch to a polearm or greataxe/greatsword (both have the Heavy, Two-Handed property) and get PAM (for polearms) and GWM.

I actually kind of want to go TWF here, and it's purely an aesthetics thing. We've already got two sword and boarders (technically axe/hammer and boarders). I bust out my shield when I'm out of rages/not planning on using one, but for the most part I'm short sword/scimitar. I dunno, I'm just very...pro-diversity when it comes to fighting styles and stuff. Better mouth feel. GWF and PAM are kinda out of the question: I want to keep my Sneak Attack!

--

One more thing! When I voiced this issue to my DM after our last game, he suggested maybe the next time we go magic item hunting, I could look for something Uncommon that I could use semi-regularly to break out of the repetition. Any ideas there?

[MrStabby]

I feel you. I had the same issue playing a warlock

I would say that at next level you can take a little more rogue which should give you a bit of a boost in terms of LOTS more flexibility for your bonus action. Hide, disengage, dash... they do open up a bit more variety.

Rogue 3 will add more power but maybe a little more flexibility depending on type. Mastermind, Inquisitive, Thief... all good for more bonus action options. Arcane Trickster will give you a bit of magic to play with. Any of these can open up a bit more choice.

Sure,your build will never get the depth of choice a wizard will, but you should pick up a little bit more by way of combat options over the next two levels.

I would also suggest grappling a bit more. It's a fun change, especially when your party supports it - throwing enemies through a wall of fire is good for a laugh. It is also something that your build is naturally good at with a source of advantage, expertise but also the dash as a bonus action and barbarian speed lets you move your grappled captives a really dangerous distance. A standard 15 ft movement with a grappled creature doesn't open up a huge number of options but 40ft movement does. If you like it you can even add scout. The reaction movement can be made with a grappled enemy.

[DragonBaneDM]

I feel you. I had the same issue playing a warlock

I would say that at next level you can take a little more rogue which should give you a bit of a boost in terms of LOTS more flexibility for your bonus action. Hide, disengage, dash... they do open up a bit more variety.

Rogue 3 will add more power but maybe a little more flexibility depending on type. Mastermind, Inquisitive, Thief... all good for more bonus action options. Arcane Trickster will give you a bit of magic to play with. Any of these can open up a bit more choice.

Sure,your build will never get the depth of choice a wizard will, but you should pick up a little bit more by way of combat options over the next two levels.

I would also suggest grappling a bit more. It's a fun change, especially when your party supports it - throwing enemies through a wall of fire is good for a laugh. It is also something that your build is naturally good at with a source of advantage, expertise but also the dash as a bonus action and barbarian speed lets you move your grappled captives a really dangerous distance. A standard 15 ft movement with a grappled creature doesn't open up a huge number of options but 40ft movement does. If you like it you can even add scout. The reaction movement can be made with a grappled enemy.

I'm planning on going Scout! The reaction is gonna make stuff fun. And probably Sentinel if I can get Ogre Gauntlets/Hill Giant Belt by Rogue 4! That way I can really feel like I'm able to affect battlefield stuff.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm planning on going Scout! The reaction is gonna make stuff fun. And probably Sentinel if I can get Ogre Gauntlets/Hill Giant Belt by Rogue 4! That way I can really feel like I'm able to affect battlefield stuff.

Hmm..just read some of the fine print.

An enemy doesn't have to WILLINGLY end his turn next to you to allow your Scout ability to activate.

Basically, you could grab onto some poor mage, and just start booking it. You naturally have 40 feet of moment, so you'd be able to move 60 feet while grappling during your turn, and 10 feet at the end of the mage's. 70 feet a round dragging 1-2 people. Could lead to some shenanigans.

[DragonBaneDM]

Hmm..just read some of the fine print.

An enemy doesn't have to WILLINGLY end his turn next to you to allow your Scout ability to activate.

Basically, you could grab onto some poor mage, and just start booking it. You naturally have 40 feet of moment, so you'd be able to move 60 feet while grappling during your turn, and 10 feet at the end of the mage's. 70 feet a round dragging 1-2 people. Could lead to some shenanigans.

Hubba hubba wha!?

Okay. So with my bonus speed from being a Skirmisher Warforged and Barbarian Fast Movement I'm accidentally building the Ultimate-Abductor. I mean I guess that would be a Monk, but with Rage and my high Str, I'm better off for the actual grab and drag.

[Man_Over_Game]

Hubba hubba wha!?

Okay. So with my bonus speed from being a Skirmisher Warforged and Barbarian Fast Movement I'm accidentally building the Ultimate-Abductor. I mean I guess that would be a Monk, but with Rage and my high Str, I'm better off for the actual grab and drag.

Grab Mage Slayer, and you have the means of a mage robber. Disengage in, grab mage, book it the hell out of dodge, mage can't do anything against you due to Mage Slayer. Since your party consists of several melee fighters anyway, magic might be a major concern for your party. Grab items that allow you to defend yourself in bursts (like something similar to the Shield spell) for when you get over your head.

What kind of Barbarian are you? I could see Storm doing well here.

[DragonBaneDM]

Grab Mage Slayer, and you have the means of a mage robber. Disengage in, grab mage, book it the hell out of dodge, mage can't do anything against you due to Mage Slayer. Since your party consists of several melee fighters anyway, magic might be a major concern for your party. Grab items that allow you to defend yourself in bursts (like something similar to the Shield spell) for when you get over your head.

What kind of Barbarian are you? I could see Storm doing well here.

Bear (Eberron, doing most of our adventuring in Sharn/Breland, seemed fitting).

[Man_Over_Game]

Could work very well, Bear has enough tankiness to not need immense support. Bear basically is barbarian, but more of it. All the same pros, but all the same cons. You're tanky, but you don't do anything.

With this kind of build, though, you could easily be a very major nuisance that is impossible to get rid of. Your team doesn't need Counterspell when they have a mage-lusting bear on their side.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Does the DM help your quest for variety by confronting you with a variety of opponents, tactics and objectives?

My character is a big guy designed to tank via grappling, and last night we faced...a big guy who liked to grapple people and chew on them! He grabbed our bard and started chewing on him, but I grappled him back and dragged him away from my ally (forced movement breaks grapples!).

Counter-grappling wasn't top of my list for how I expected to contribute, but I was sure glad I had that option. In other words, the greater the variety of situations you face, the greater the variety of tactics you can respond with.

[ad_hoc]

Does the DM help your quest for variety by confronting you with a variety of opponents, tactics and objectives?

My character is a big guy designed to tank via grappling, and last night we faced...a big guy who liked to grapple people and chew on them! He grabbed our bard and started chewing on him, but I grappled him back and dragged him away from my ally (forced movement breaks grapples!).

Counter-grappling wasn't top of my list for how I expected to contribute, but I was sure glad I had that option. In other words, the greater the variety of situations you face, the greater the variety of tactics you can respond with.

This is the best solution I think.

They also need to be challenging enough that simply walking up and attacking the nearest thing isn't going to cut it.

[Mjolnirbear]

I kinda want to see a whip-rogue here.

Whips are Cool, according to the Law of Indiana Jones. I believe they qualify for sneak attack, and they have range.

But one of the things I think might help is fluff. That grapple? Describe it as a whip-grapple. Tripping? Whip-crack to the feet. Intimidation? Baby you know a whip-crack right in front of the eyeballs is a brown-pants situation.

Your DM may be willing to give you situational bonuses or let you trip at range, but even if not, using a whip is an excellent way to describe things... Like swinging from a chandelier hehe